0:00

I paid chat cheapity $20

0:02

a month. I now have

0:04

access to a skilled young

0:06

in analyst, dream analyst. I

0:09

designed using chat cheapity a

0:11

fire ceremony. What happened is

0:13

I basically walked in with

0:15

my VC clothing, like an

0:18

old outfit that I used

0:20

to wear, and I literally

0:22

stripped down naked, burned it.

0:25

put on basically a robe

0:27

and then had this crazy

0:29

experience, like huge emotional release.

0:32

AI is like the ultimate

0:34

integrator of these peak experiences,

0:36

of these rich experiences, and

0:39

it helps us deepen in

0:41

ways that we wouldn't have

0:44

been able to before. What

0:46

I'm realizing is that AI

0:49

has a real opportunity to

0:51

dramatically expand consciousness of people.

1:07

Steve, welcome to the show. Hey

1:09

Dan, so good to see you

1:11

brother. So good to see you

1:13

too. So for people who don't

1:15

know, you are the founder of

1:17

Downshift. You are a former VC

1:20

and now an executive coach, you

1:22

specialize in transitions for hyperforming people

1:24

like founders. Your main claim to

1:26

fan of course is you are

1:28

an original every investor. Yes, yes.

1:30

And one thing that we were

1:32

talking about, which I kind of

1:34

wanted to start with, is I

1:37

think you were reflecting a

1:39

little bit on, I guess, the journey

1:41

that you've seen us take and

1:43

what that, I guess what that

1:45

says about what it's like

1:47

to start something new and

1:50

versus what people typically expect

1:52

a startup to look like.

1:54

Can you just, like, te

1:56

us up for a second?

1:58

Yeah, well, I, Dan and I. were reflecting

2:00

for a few minutes before the

2:02

show began a role. And one

2:04

of the things that I really

2:07

appreciated about Dan when he

2:09

was starting his fundraising process was

2:11

like, I don't think I want

2:14

this to be a venture back company.

2:16

I don't even know what it's going

2:18

to become, but hey, like we're

2:20

going to build something special and

2:22

And I think there was something really

2:25

magical about that because he wasn't here

2:27

kind of giving this grand pitch and

2:29

this vision of the way the world

2:31

was going to be and what and

2:34

how every was going to fit into

2:36

it. And as I've been sitting with

2:38

it and watching you and in the

2:40

way you've built it, it's like I'd

2:42

imagine that version of you five years

2:45

ago couldn't have predicted whatever he was

2:47

going to become. No. No way no

2:49

way and and it's it's almost

2:51

like as I think about us

2:53

building down shift I see down

2:56

shift as a container for

2:58

emergence So I think a lot

3:00

of the time in startup culture.

3:03

It's like we have this idea

3:05

and we see it as a

3:07

company day one and then it

3:10

becomes a thing that's rigid and

3:12

and instead of seeing it

3:15

as a company in the earliest

3:17

days just seeing it as a

3:19

container for emergence. I love it.

3:21

How do you define emergence in

3:24

this context? Yeah, it's almost like

3:26

I love the idea of the

3:28

adjacent possible. Stuart Kaufman at the

3:30

at the at the Santa Fe

3:33

Institute coined it, Stephen Johnson popularized

3:35

it, but it's this idea that

3:37

there is, they're sort of like

3:39

a set of, they use it

3:42

in a technological sense where there's

3:44

a set of capabilities. and

3:46

that current set of capabilities

3:48

eventually unlocks the adjacent possible,

3:50

which is an entirely new

3:52

set of capabilities. And so

3:54

the way I like to

3:56

think about emergence is that

3:58

we have that. in a

4:00

company, there's like a set of

4:02

ideas, a set of capabilities, values,

4:05

and as we move through time

4:07

and space, we learn. And the

4:10

container emerges and the opportunities emerge

4:12

and things are proven, disproven, and

4:14

it becomes almost like this organic

4:17

process versus this process that's like

4:19

forced. Yeah, here's how I think

4:21

about this, and I think this

4:24

fits in really well to your

4:26

to your point. And I've only

4:28

recently been able to like sort of

4:31

articulate this, but I'm curious what you think. I

4:33

think I think I think it'll be interesting. So

4:35

I think the thing that you're pointing to you,

4:37

like when I showed up and was fundraising and

4:39

wasn't like, here's a big thing, it's definitely

4:41

going to be change the world or whatever. But I

4:43

was like, here's some things I know, and here's

4:46

some things I think and here's some things I

4:48

think and here's I think and I think and

4:50

I want to like, I want to like a

4:52

space to like play around a space to like

4:54

play around, I think the reason why the other

4:56

way of doing things is sometimes it's helpful, but

4:59

like the big reason why it's

5:01

not helpful and why it becomes

5:03

rigid is because that is basically

5:05

people doing what they think they

5:07

should do or telling the story they

5:10

think they need to tell in order

5:12

to raise money and sometimes that is

5:14

actually true you actually do need to

5:17

tell that story. But as I've... run

5:19

every for a longer and

5:21

longer period of time and

5:23

just generally have been starting

5:25

companies for basically my whole

5:28

life. I've started to realize how

5:30

much of company building is an

5:32

expression of who you are as

5:34

a founder and how much better companies

5:37

go when a company is an

5:39

expression of who you authentically are

5:41

versus who you think you should

5:43

be or think you need to be

5:45

or think you need to be

5:47

or think you need to be or

5:49

And the reason why people end

5:51

up doing those pitches is because they're

5:54

not particularly comfortable with who they are

5:56

and they want to start a company

5:58

in order to. be seen differently or

6:00

you know whatever which is totally real like

6:03

I do that too I did that a

6:05

lot and it took me you know I

6:07

raised money in this way that was like

6:09

hey I don't know I don't know what

6:11

this is blah blah whatever but even still

6:13

right after I raised money I just pretended

6:15

basically to be a venture back to CEO

6:17

for the next two years which was like

6:20

horrible for me and horrible for

6:22

every because I was like not at all

6:24

the I was grinding against my nature and

6:26

once I just admitted like I want to

6:28

be a writer and I really want every

6:31

to be a great business. I want to

6:33

be an institution, but I want to do

6:35

it by spending most of my time writing

6:37

or at least half my time writing, which

6:40

I know I'm not supposed to do

6:42

as like a venture back founder, you're not

6:44

supposed to do that. But as soon as

6:46

I did that, everything sort of unlocked in

6:49

this kind of crazy way. And AI

6:51

was actually like extremely important for

6:53

that because I realized that I

6:55

wanted to be part of being

6:57

like building a great business. And

6:59

then I asked ChatGBT, has anyone

7:01

else done this? Which is an un-goable

7:03

question. You cannot Google for that. Right,

7:06

you can absolutely not. And ChatGBT was

7:08

like, yeah, like Sam Harris, for example,

7:10

writer, podcaster, has waking up app, it's

7:12

like a gigantic amazing business. Or Bill

7:15

Simmons, who like, Podcaster started the Ringer

7:17

and Grant Land, sold us to Spotify

7:19

for a couple hundred million bucks. And

7:21

I was like, oh wow, I can

7:23

do this. And there are like patterns.

7:26

for how to do it, but like

7:28

it's not talked about at all because

7:30

it's not the typical Silicon Valley story.

7:32

And I bring all this up because

7:35

I think that that sort of

7:37

the way that things end up

7:39

emerging organically is you're in a position

7:41

where you can allow yourself to

7:43

be sort of your full self.

7:45

And that is going to be

7:47

that business that you build is

7:49

going to be a sort of unique

7:51

shape that is actually sort

7:53

of illegible. because you can't,

7:55

it's hard to describe in terms

7:58

of like past patterns. Those are,

8:00

I think those are the best businesses.

8:02

And obviously you can go back once

8:05

you have it and start to like

8:07

put words to it and start to

8:09

describe it. But the ones that are,

8:11

the businesses that are most legible are

8:13

often the businesses where you're like fitting

8:15

into a pre-established box that you know

8:18

works that's actually not particularly compatible with

8:20

you or compatible with the world. And

8:22

anyway, now I'm rambling, but I thought

8:24

you'd like that. I love it. And

8:26

it's interesting. So much was coming up

8:29

as I was listening to that.

8:31

First, I'm thinking about one

8:33

of my clients right now. Started

8:36

a unicorn in his previous

8:38

business. He went and raised

8:40

venture capital for his second

8:42

business. And what he's realizing

8:45

is that it's boxing him

8:47

in. It's almost as if

8:49

his creativity and his genius

8:52

isn't able to fully flourish

8:54

because he feels the pressure

8:56

of having to build a

8:58

certain kind of business that's

9:01

no longer aligned with who

9:03

he is. And I just think

9:05

that there's something really magical

9:07

and I think about down

9:09

shift and the way that

9:11

we're building it, you use

9:13

the word playground. I like

9:15

to think of it as

9:18

a sandbox. And for us,

9:20

it's like a playpen where

9:22

it's like we know we're

9:24

really passionate about this problem

9:26

of helping professionals through transition.

9:28

The way in which it's ultimately going

9:30

to manifest, like right now

9:32

we do one-on-one coaching and

9:34

we have our decelerator program,

9:36

but like we're already starting

9:38

to see how it's going

9:40

to change. Yeah. And it's

9:42

going to change not because,

9:44

not just because what we're

9:46

learning from the market, but

9:48

because who we're realizing we

9:50

are as human beings and

9:52

who I am as a founder. Yeah.

9:54

And the last thing I would say,

9:57

so it's like you're reading my journal.

9:59

I wrote. that like the next

10:01

chapter of Downshift is going

10:03

to be like me really leaning into

10:05

my genius and the things that I

10:07

love to do which is right and

10:10

create and coach and if I'm not

10:12

doing those things then I'm not going

10:14

to be happy and it's not going

10:17

to be the most aligned fullest expression

10:19

of me. I love that I love

10:21

that and it's so funny how hard those

10:23

choices are. And it's like, oh, I got

10:25

to make that choice again, you know, but

10:27

once you do it, even if it's scary,

10:29

it like, it works. At least in my

10:31

experience, it tends to work, which is great.

10:33

Maybe I'm lucky because like my passion isn't

10:35

like playing classical flute or something, you know,

10:37

but at least for people who love business

10:39

and cash flute. And yeah, like I think

10:42

part of this is another another another way

10:44

I've been playing around with thinking about it

10:46

and describing it and describing it and

10:48

describing it and describing it and

10:50

describing it and describing it. I

10:52

think a previous version of business,

10:54

the way that we've thought about it is

10:56

it's sort of like science and building

10:58

a business is sort of like a

11:01

machine and you are like a machine

11:03

and therefore you need to think about

11:05

it in those like very reduced terms.

11:07

And so if you're a unicorn founder

11:10

and like obviously the next thing you

11:12

want to do is build the biggest

11:14

thing possible and the way to do

11:16

that is to like raise money from

11:19

the most impressive VCs and then you're

11:21

like. Yeah, go to Sequoia or any

11:23

number of great funds. And you're like,

11:25

cool, I'm going to be a machine

11:28

and it's going to be a machine

11:30

and whatever. And then you're like, actually,

11:32

I feel very boxed in, you know,

11:35

like I don't really. And I think

11:37

that what that boxed in feeling indicates

11:39

to me is there's a different way

11:41

of building businesses that looks at

11:43

building businesses as art, as a

11:46

creative expression. And that's not

11:48

for everybody, not all people need

11:50

to think that way, but that's

11:53

definitely how I feel. And that's

11:55

like sort of the happiest that I

11:57

am. And if you're building businesses as

11:59

art. the choices that you make are

12:01

going to be different because they're going

12:04

to be about how you feel and

12:06

like whether you're in that sort of

12:08

like creative mode enough. And I think

12:10

you can actually also build a really

12:12

great, really big business doing that, but

12:15

it's just going to look a lot

12:17

different than other sorts of businesses and

12:19

you have to deal with the... The

12:21

kind of like side eye you get

12:23

from people for a while, you know,

12:25

it was really hard for a couple

12:27

years like building every and being like,

12:30

I'm building a newsletter. People didn't like

12:32

that. News letters can be very good

12:34

businesses. Not to, I mean, but not to,

12:36

not to the people that we hang out

12:38

with, or not all of them, but some

12:40

of them, you know, even if your business

12:42

is making a million bucks a year, that's

12:44

like nothing, you know, it's like not even

12:46

worth your time. Yeah, and

12:48

I think though you're one

12:50

of those founders that are

12:52

unwilling to just stay on

12:55

a track and that you're

12:57

open to what wants

12:59

to emerge. I try to

13:01

be. I really try to

13:03

be. And look at every

13:05

now, like it's, you know,

13:07

it's, it is very much

13:09

a playground for you. Yeah. And

13:11

I think you're sort of, you've made a

13:13

lot of the same decisions. You had a

13:15

really great VC job and you could have

13:17

done that forever and it's really hard to

13:19

go off and do what you did. And

13:22

I want to like, I want to start

13:24

to transition this conversation because I know you

13:26

have a lot of AI stuff to share

13:28

with us. One of the things I think

13:30

is interesting, I've only been watching from afar,

13:32

so you tell me, but I feel like,

13:34

about a year ago. I was writing a

13:36

lot of takes about AI and like

13:38

therapy and coaching and blah blah blah.

13:40

Saw those. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely felt

13:43

like you were sort of wary of it

13:45

taking away the human element and

13:47

maybe like wary of using it. And

13:49

I think I don't know what's changed,

13:51

but I think that something has changed.

13:53

Maybe you still are wary of that,

13:55

which I think is a legit thing

13:57

to be worried about, but to be

13:59

clear. at least seem to have

14:02

found things that you are

14:04

enthusiastic about. So give us

14:06

like a high level overview

14:08

of like where you are in

14:11

your kind of AI thinking and

14:13

journey and where you started and

14:15

where you are now. Yeah, a

14:18

few caveats before I share. First,

14:20

I am not on the

14:22

bleeding edge of AI.

14:24

Second is I have

14:26

been a lover of

14:28

technology my entire life.

14:31

And so I've been

14:33

very fortunate to see

14:35

a number of pretty

14:37

massive trends, internet, mobile,

14:39

social, crypto. What I'm

14:42

going to say is that

14:44

AI is the most

14:46

profound thing I've ever

14:48

seen. By each passing

14:50

day, I just cannot

14:52

believe the power, the cost.

14:54

the depth, the breadth, and

14:56

I really believe that we're

14:58

on, we're on the cusp,

15:01

we're, you know, using my

15:03

language and transition, we're on

15:05

the cusp of a major,

15:07

what I've been calling the

15:09

great transition. And I don't

15:11

necessarily think that we're prepared

15:13

yet, based on what's coming.

15:15

Interesting, transition from what to what?

15:18

I don't know. I'm not a

15:20

futurist, but I can feel it.

15:22

I can feel that there's something

15:24

about this technology that is so

15:26

powerful that it's going to fundamentally

15:28

reshape the way that everything is

15:30

done in a way that we

15:32

haven't seen before. And I see

15:34

it in my own life. I

15:36

see it in my own life.

15:38

Well, take us through, like, pick

15:40

something concrete that you're using it

15:42

for that you want to talk

15:45

about. Well, I don't know if

15:47

your audience would consider this concrete,

15:49

but I have a lot of

15:51

fun with it. So in my

15:54

work, so one of the things

15:56

I'm focused on right now is

15:58

I love Bill Plotkin. who

16:00

wrote a book called

16:02

Soul Craft. He runs

16:04

an organization called the

16:06

Animas Valley Institute. He's

16:09

an eco-depth psychologist. That's

16:11

cool. What's eco-depth? So

16:13

eco-depth psychologist is a

16:15

brand of depth psychology

16:17

that uses kind of

16:19

the intersection of nature

16:22

and psyche and the

16:24

exploration of nature and

16:26

how it impacts the

16:28

psyche. At the deepest levels.

16:30

Like the therapy occurs in

16:32

nature or you're using like

16:35

natural archetypes like waterfall or

16:37

sunlight to help explore

16:39

how you feel about something? Both.

16:41

Okay. Yeah. That's really interesting

16:44

because I was living in

16:46

Panama for the last month

16:48

or so and I lived in this

16:50

cottage in the jungle and there

16:53

were no glass windows. It was

16:55

all screens and so I was

16:57

just literally outside. for

16:59

a month, like hearing the wind and

17:02

the trees and the birds and you

17:04

could hear the ocean, you can hear

17:06

monkeys. And it was such a

17:08

beautiful, like spiritual experience, like I

17:10

miss the trees, just like watching

17:13

trees. There's so much like depth

17:15

and richness in nature that there

17:17

is a kind of richness in

17:19

a city, but it's very different.

17:22

And anyway, you're just making

17:24

me think of that and how. how

17:26

amazing that was. Like it was

17:29

very important to me. And

17:31

it's, we're, I, we're wired to want

17:33

to, to want to be in

17:35

those environments. But coming back to

17:38

Plockin, so I've been going really

17:40

deep. And part of, you know,

17:42

his work and like going deep

17:44

into the psyche is dream work.

17:47

So I have been working with

17:49

ChatChi PT as a young Ian

17:51

dream analyst. Me too. And that's

17:54

awesome. I've been recording my dreams

17:56

every morning using audio, which we

17:58

should come back to. audio as

18:01

a form of input

18:03

because it's something I've

18:05

been obsessed with and

18:07

thinking about. But sorry,

18:10

not audio, a voice. and

18:12

I've been really obsessed with voice,

18:14

but I've been recording my dreams

18:16

and then having these like deep

18:18

at what what Young used to

18:21

call active imagination where you're going

18:23

back into the dream and then

18:25

re-experiencing it and then taking action.

18:27

So if I if I can

18:30

share my screen for a second,

18:32

I would love to show you.

18:34

kind of what I am doing

18:36

around dream analysis. So here is

18:39

the output. I put it in

18:41

a notion just so you could

18:43

get a sense. And so this

18:46

is literally verbatim, the expression. So

18:48

I was, I was, I had

18:50

a dream where I was setting

18:52

up a base camp on a

18:54

big mountain. Basically it was a

18:56

tent. And it wasn't an expedition,

18:59

but it was a solo retreat

19:01

part way up the mountain. And

19:03

the task was to go up,

19:05

set up a tent, and get

19:07

ready. Then I could come back

19:09

down, but the understanding was that

19:12

I would have to return to

19:14

the tent later. So then I

19:16

had all these emotions in

19:18

the dream. And then I was walking

19:20

back up, and then I found

19:22

a mask. And, you know, here

19:25

it says on the one point

19:27

I was making my way up

19:29

the mountain, I found something buried

19:31

in the snow, a knitted ski

19:33

mask that covered the whole head

19:36

with cutouts for eyes and mouth.

19:38

It was made of multi-colored thread.

19:40

I remember digging it out and

19:42

deciding to keep it. So then

19:44

I basically have this expanded dream

19:47

analysis prompt where it gives me

19:49

basically an analysis of the dream

19:51

and what the various images. represent.

19:54

And one of the things that I've

19:56

been really focused on is really cultivating

19:58

the four windows of no. So the

20:00

four windows of knowing are

20:03

feeling, thinking, sensing, and imagining.

20:05

And the feeling and imaginal

20:08

realms are largely ignored. And

20:10

so I'm studying to be

20:13

a somatic coach, learning hakomi,

20:15

so that sort of explores

20:18

the feeling realm. But imagery

20:20

is this realm that has

20:23

largely gone unexport. So I'm

20:25

using Chachi PT to explore

20:28

these images. So there's sort

20:30

of the mountain, the fear of the

20:32

night. The buried mask what

20:35

does that mean? You know

20:37

here in ancient rights masks

20:39

were worn by initiates to

20:41

embody a new self protect

20:44

against the forces or allow

20:46

access to hidden wisdom and

20:48

then it gives reflections So

20:50

then what ends up happening

20:53

is now there's these active

20:55

imagination prompts. So then what

20:57

I do is I do

21:00

a whole reflection. I did

21:02

a whole journaling session based

21:04

on what came up and then

21:06

I read it back using voice

21:09

into chat GPT. And then I

21:11

get another, a whole rich depth

21:13

into, into what just came

21:15

up. You know, the mountain reflects

21:18

where I am in my life,

21:20

downshift family, spiritual pursuits. I'm

21:22

now standing at this threshold,

21:24

right? Like fear of going up

21:27

the mountain at night, right?

21:29

There's a part of my life

21:31

that feels like I'm returning to the

21:33

mountain at night is the part of

21:36

me that can sense there's changes and

21:38

like fear of it, right? And then

21:40

the buried... I want to pause you, only

21:42

pause you. This is really, this is really

21:44

great. I'm 100% with you. I use this

21:46

for this all the time, but I want

21:48

to like back up and like set the

21:51

scene or set the table for maybe

21:53

someone who's listening or watching that

21:55

is, you know, comes from the

21:57

startup world, comes to the tech world.

22:00

and thinks of themselves a little

22:02

bit more hard boiled and is

22:04

like, this is, this is a

22:07

little woo-woo for me. Like, tell

22:09

me about what got you into

22:11

this and what you feel like

22:14

the value is for you so

22:16

that we can bring those people

22:18

along too. Yeah. Well, I want

22:21

to go back to the four

22:23

windows of knowing, right? There are

22:26

four ways of experiencing the world.

22:28

There's the rational mind, the thinking,

22:30

there's the senses, the senses. and

22:33

then there's the feeling in the

22:35

imaginal realms. These are just different

22:38

ways into experience. If there's a

22:40

startup founder or rationalist listening to

22:42

this, thinking is very, very important,

22:45

but it's just one frame of

22:47

seeing the world in interacting with

22:49

reality. And I think there's an

22:52

opportunity here. What I'm realizing is.

22:54

I actually think back to this

22:57

experience I had eight years ago.

22:59

I'm at breakfast with a friend

23:01

of mine, Jonathan Basker, who's a

23:04

long-time coach, and I remember I

23:06

was complaining about something in my

23:08

VC firm, and he's like, where

23:11

in your body do you feel

23:13

that? And I'm like, get the

23:16

heck out of here. I'm not

23:18

going there with you. And because

23:20

I used to be that hyper

23:23

rationalist. And what's happened is, is

23:25

as I've gone deeper into these

23:27

various windows of knowing, what I'm

23:30

realizing is there's so much intelligence.

23:32

There's so much intelligence in our

23:35

nervous system, in our feelings. And

23:37

now what I'm realizing in this

23:39

imaginal realm, in the dream, like

23:42

I had a dream the other

23:44

night, a different dream where I

23:47

was in a convenience store and

23:49

I ran into my twin brother.

23:51

and I broke down crying. And

23:54

my twin brother was my best

23:56

friend. and he and I have

23:58

grown apart. And that day I

24:01

called him. I shared the dream

24:03

report with him and I was

24:06

like, look, like, I want to

24:08

get back, like, and it, like,

24:10

that image of us, of us

24:13

hugging, of us, of me, like,

24:15

breaking down and crying, there was

24:17

something about that. And by exploring

24:20

this dream, it really allowed me

24:22

to feel into what, what was

24:25

this trying to tell me? I

24:28

love that. I mean, I think

24:30

another way to talk about what

24:32

you're saying is, or a common

24:34

rationalist objection is something like, it's

24:36

just a story. Like you're just

24:39

telling yourself a story. And I

24:41

love to just take out the

24:43

just in that sentence to be

24:45

like, you're telling yourself a story.

24:47

And sometimes you like stories, and

24:50

stories are good. And sometimes you

24:52

don't like stories, and they feel

24:54

like they're fake, or they don't

24:56

resonate with you. But learning to

24:58

tell yourself stories is incredibly valuable.

25:01

And you tell yourself stories whether

25:03

you want to or not. That's

25:05

just like part of the human

25:07

condition, but being skilled at it

25:10

and feeling like not only are

25:12

you telling yourself stories, but maybe

25:14

you're you're tapping into some stories

25:16

that was like that's given to

25:18

you or is that or is

25:21

in the world or is somehow

25:23

in some other part of you

25:25

that's hard to access is like

25:27

an incredibly important part of being

25:29

a human or flourishing or whatever

25:32

for certain types of people. And

25:34

I that for me like that's

25:36

also been. been super valuable and

25:38

important. It's funny that you bring

25:40

up a dream in a grocery

25:43

store because I had a dream

25:45

in December and I was in

25:47

a grocery store. You said convenience

25:49

store, but this is a grocery

25:51

store. And I was with a

25:54

VC type who's someone that you

25:56

and I both know. He's very

25:58

hard driving. I won't say his

26:00

name. But I was with him.

26:02

I've never actually met him. I've

26:05

never actually met him. I was

26:07

with him. I've never actually met

26:09

him. I was with him. We

26:11

both had grocery carts and we

26:13

were gonna we were getting stuff

26:16

together for like some of that

26:18

we were going to and he

26:20

was. going and putting a bunch

26:22

of stuff in his cart. And

26:24

my cart was empty. And I

26:27

was like telling him about every

26:29

and very excited to tell him

26:31

about every, which is an interesting

26:33

and unusual thing because I think

26:35

in normally in those situations I

26:38

might be a little bit like

26:40

worried or nervous to like seem

26:42

like things are going well. But

26:44

I was very excited about it.

26:46

But then I noticed he was

26:49

putting all this stuff in his

26:51

cart and I had nothing to

26:53

do like I wasn't putting anything

26:55

in my cart and I was

26:57

like, hey, like, like, should I

27:00

like, Should I go do something?

27:02

Should I go like, you know,

27:04

give me a list of things

27:06

to get? And he was like,

27:08

no, I got it. And I

27:11

felt very like self-conscious about having

27:13

an empty cart. And I just

27:15

spent a bunch of time talking

27:17

to ChatGPT about that. And it

27:19

was really interesting. Because that, that

27:22

feeling of, I should, I should

27:24

be able to fill this up,

27:26

I should be doing more work

27:28

to do stuff to fill this

27:30

up, is like, actually a very

27:33

prevalent feeling in my life. It's

27:35

not so much like my work

27:37

life, like that's pretty, I feel

27:39

like my cart's pretty full, but

27:41

there's some stuff in my personal

27:44

life, like my dating life or

27:46

whatever, where I'm like trying to

27:48

fill up the cart and not,

27:50

it's not quite working and I

27:52

feel self-conscious that I have an

27:55

empty cart. I'm single right now.

27:57

And anyway, like, what ChatGBT helped

27:59

me realize is like, well, one

28:01

is all of that. And then

28:03

two, there's a way to look

28:06

at an empty cart as like

28:08

I need to fill it. And

28:10

then there's a way to look

28:12

at it as a symbol of

28:14

like openness and freedom and creativity

28:17

like there's a space and spaces

28:19

can be great. So I just

28:21

made January my like month of

28:23

the empty cart and just like

28:25

delete all my dating apps and

28:28

whatever it was it was very

28:30

good and very powerful for me.

28:32

And I say all that one

28:34

because I'm curious what you have

28:37

to say about it but two.

28:39

I think people don't. Think that

28:41

smart people can't think in this

28:43

way or feel in this way

28:45

or or whatever and I think

28:48

it's an incredibly important and valuable

28:50

part of my life and it

28:52

sounds like the same is true

28:54

for you and and this tool

28:56

because I don't have a regular

28:59

therapist I don't have a union

29:01

therapist this tool is so good

29:03

at just helping pull that stuff

29:05

out well and that and that's

29:07

the thing and I've never explored

29:10

dreams this is a relatively new

29:12

phenomenon for me but because I

29:14

paid chat cheapity $20 a month.

29:16

I now have access to a

29:18

skilled young-ian analyst, dream analyst. And

29:21

listen, like, I don't want to

29:23

say it's a substitute. Like, I've

29:25

had, I have done dream work

29:27

with the Soul Craft Guide at

29:29

an animus retreat, and that's an

29:32

entirely different experience, but. you know,

29:34

for to be able to just

29:36

jump in and do this, it's

29:38

astounding. And what I found is

29:40

that the images and the dreams

29:43

and the metaphors are scarily related

29:45

to what I'm experiencing in my

29:47

life, scarily. What is the prompt

29:49

you're using? Can you show us

29:51

that? Yeah, let me pull it

29:54

up. So here is the full

29:56

feed. So I guess I need

29:58

to go all the way to

30:00

the top. And I refine it

30:02

over time. But I said, so

30:05

this one, I clearly didn't over

30:07

engineer the prompt. So I asked

30:09

for a primer on Jungian dream

30:11

analysis. I just spoke it into

30:13

my mobile phone. So wait, just

30:16

to scroll back up because I

30:18

want to read it for people

30:20

who are listening. So I wanted

30:22

to start to do some dream

30:24

work with you. You are a

30:27

unique analyst and you're going to

30:29

first give me a primer on

30:31

dream analysis and how to share

30:33

the images that are emerging from

30:35

my dream space. And so basically,

30:38

yeah, you're asking to just like

30:40

write a guide as if they're

30:42

a union analyst that the AI

30:44

was a union analyst who had

30:46

worked with you and in Vienna.

30:49

happens is so then, okay, here's

30:51

how to share your dream. And

30:53

then here's the first dream report

30:55

that I got. So this one

30:57

was basically like the kitchen oatmeal

31:00

and a specific request. And then

31:02

I had a second, I had

31:04

a second dream that first night,

31:06

I suppose, and I said, okay,

31:08

thank you. I want a more

31:11

comprehensive dream analysis for the kitchen

31:13

dream, along with a guide for

31:15

integration and reflection. And then I

31:17

basically am instructing to really zero

31:19

in on it. So now I'm

31:22

getting kind of a more high

31:24

fidelity report on the dream and

31:26

the different images within that one

31:28

specific dream. So then I'm getting

31:30

integration prompts and reflections. Now it's

31:33

starting to bring in the active

31:35

imagination exercises. And then you get

31:37

kind of a pivotal thoughts. And

31:39

then you can see my response.

31:41

I'm like, wow, this is so

31:44

helpful. My mind is kind of

31:46

blown right now. You know, I'm

31:48

like, because I'm currently wrestling with

31:50

this tension between creating downshift, which

31:52

is requiring a lot more of

31:55

my time. and it's cutting into

31:57

time for all these other things.

31:59

So it's, and so what's then

32:01

happened is as I've gone down

32:04

into the thread, I'm now asking

32:06

it to actually summarize my dream

32:08

and edit it. So anyhow, that's

32:10

basically, and so I evolve the

32:12

prompt as I go deeper into

32:15

the exploration because I'm getting a

32:17

better sense as to what's really

32:19

speaking to me. That's interesting. Have

32:21

you ever experimented? Because like if

32:23

you read like any of the

32:26

Robert Johnson stuff, like one of

32:28

the one of the things he

32:30

has you do is like for

32:32

each like dream image, so like

32:34

each sort of frame of the

32:37

dream you like. like, say all

32:39

of your different associations with different

32:41

things in the dream and that's

32:43

sort of how it starts to

32:45

help you connect it to like

32:48

your actual life. Have you ever

32:50

done anything like that? Not yet,

32:52

but that's where I'm definitely heading

32:54

in that direction. But something else

32:56

I can show you that I

32:59

did, I had this really crazy

33:01

medicine journey. Here, let me, let

33:03

me pull this up. So I

33:05

had this really crazy medicine journey

33:07

in November. So let me share

33:10

my screen. Medicine we're talking about

33:12

like, Silas Ivan. So this was

33:14

basically a trip report. So the

33:16

day after I journaled for probably

33:18

an hour and a half. And

33:21

this basically summarizes that journal entry.

33:23

voice to text using my phone.

33:25

And then what happened is it

33:27

gave me sort of integration and

33:29

next steps. So I'm like, okay,

33:32

this is how I'm integrating the

33:34

practice. So here it's like, okay,

33:36

like the big themes is around.

33:38

being of service to my family,

33:40

deeply loving my life, honoring my

33:43

body as a vessel of life,

33:45

surrendering ownership and control, strengthening connection

33:47

to my daughters. So then what

33:49

happened is I was like, okay,

33:51

now you're a shaman. And give

33:54

me the sort of the response

33:56

in a very different voice. And

33:58

what are the different energies? And

34:00

so now you're seeing like different

34:02

archetypes coming up here. It's like

34:05

the servant, the lover, oneness with

34:07

nature, death and grief is gateways.

34:09

And then here are the points

34:11

that I love like integration practices.

34:13

So. What started to happen from

34:16

this was like, okay, here are

34:18

different experiments. And what what what

34:20

began to kind of come out

34:22

of this was an e. I

34:24

had an ego death in that.

34:27

in that journey. And so what

34:29

happened is is I designed using

34:31

chat GPT a fire ceremony where

34:33

it was December 13th in like

34:35

25 degree weather and it was

34:38

a second solo medicine journey that

34:40

I that I effectively planned. And

34:42

basically an entire. kind of run

34:44

a show that I ended up

34:46

burning at the beginning of the

34:49

ceremony to basically just be with

34:51

with the medicine and let it

34:53

do its work. But what happened

34:55

is it was this whole amazing

34:57

where I basically walked in with

35:00

my VC clothing like an old

35:02

outfit that I used to wear

35:04

and I literally stripped down naked

35:06

burned it. put on basically a

35:08

robe, and then had this crazy

35:11

experience, like huge emotional release. And

35:13

then what happened is, is I

35:15

then read my journal entry back,

35:17

and it gave me, you know,

35:19

all of these themes, like release

35:22

and transformation, the images that I

35:24

sat with, Eros and Lifeforce, communing

35:26

with the elements, and then more

35:28

integration. So then like how do

35:31

I continue to deepen this experience?

35:33

And so I guess that the

35:35

point that I'm getting at with

35:37

all of this is what I'm

35:39

starting to realize is that AI

35:42

is is like the ultimate integrator

35:44

of these peak experiences of these

35:46

rich experiences and it helps us

35:48

deepen in ways that we wouldn't

35:50

have been able to have been

35:53

able to be able to. for

35:55

and that's what blows my mind.

35:57

It's like the the speed in

35:59

the depth at which I'm I'm

36:01

growing it like I think it

36:04

what I'm starting to realize just

36:06

through this like imagery work with

36:08

medicine dreams again like the old

36:10

me would have been like dude

36:12

you're woo you're going crazy and

36:15

what I'm realizing is is that

36:17

AI has a real opportunity to

36:19

dramatically expand consciousness of people. I

36:21

agree. I want to do something

36:23

with you that I think you'll

36:26

like. So one of the earliest

36:28

things I did in this realm

36:30

is I started using CatchyBT to

36:32

visualize my dreams. And then I

36:34

built a little like text spot

36:37

where you could text it and

36:39

send it your dream and it

36:41

would send you an image back.

36:43

I would love to do that

36:45

with you. The text pat's not

36:48

working anymore, but do you want

36:50

to pick a dream or something

36:52

from your journey that you want

36:54

to see? And let's throw it

36:56

into Chatche BT and see what

36:59

it looks like. Yeah, let's do

37:01

it. All right, so here we

37:03

are. We're back. Okay, so I'm

37:05

going to take your dream. I'm

37:07

going to throw it in here

37:10

into Chatchebeat. And we can start

37:12

with 4-0. I actually, you know,

37:14

I haven't done image generation in

37:16

Chatchebeat in a long time. And

37:20

I'm going to

37:22

do this, whoops,

37:25

stop, okay. And

37:27

I'm gonna say,

37:30

this is a

37:32

dream my friend

37:34

Steve had. I

37:37

want to visualize,

37:39

I want to

37:41

visualize it specifically.

37:44

I want to

37:46

see the ski

37:49

mask on the

37:51

mountain. Make it

37:53

dreamy and ethereal

37:56

and highly saturated.

37:58

All right, let's

38:00

see. it does.

38:03

Does it does

38:05

it capture what

38:08

you saw? Wow.

38:10

What do you

38:12

think? I love

38:15

it. Does it

38:17

does it capture

38:19

what what you

38:22

saw or would

38:24

you want modifications?

38:31

Also, the mountain looked more

38:33

like Mount Rainier than something

38:35

that's that rugged. And was

38:37

it this big? Was it

38:39

like coming out like this

38:41

or? It was like, it

38:43

was in the snow. I

38:45

sort of stumbled upon it.

38:47

So it wasn't on top.

38:49

It was like, I sort

38:51

of, yeah. Let's see, let's

38:53

see if it can do

38:55

it. So I said, can

38:57

we do softer color tones?

38:59

The mountain looked more like

39:01

Mount Rainier and the mask

39:03

was in the snow, like

39:05

you could stumble upon it.

39:07

No. Not ready. But, you

39:09

know, it's, I think the

39:11

first one definitely had more

39:13

of an emotional reaction. It

39:15

got you somewhere, right? Yeah.

39:17

Yeah. Well, let me just

39:19

see, because I think I

39:21

could, uh, what happened here.

39:27

This is a dream. The

39:29

mountain looked like Mount Rainier.

39:32

Soft color tones. And I

39:34

want it to be, like,

39:37

what I'm thinking is sort

39:39

of like a close-up of

39:42

it in the snow. Yeah,

39:44

yeah, great. All right. So

39:47

we may not get mountain,

39:49

we may not get actual

39:51

mountain vibes if it's a

39:54

close-up, but. Okay. It

40:08

just loves this like, I know,

40:11

I know. I love it. All

40:13

right. Well, at least the first

40:15

one, the first one you did

40:18

like, which is pretty cool. Yeah,

40:20

definitely had a visceral reaction. And

40:22

I think that that is like

40:25

so interesting. Sometimes you get that

40:27

and it's really cool. Like I

40:30

have this whole thing, like my

40:32

phone background, which I can't show

40:34

you because I'm using my phone

40:37

as a camera. But one of

40:39

the archetypes that I'm really into

40:41

is Hermes and as like a

40:44

sort of liminal boundary crossing God.

40:46

And in particular, like one of

40:48

the manifestations that I like is

40:51

Twilight, like the time of day,

40:53

not the book. And so I

40:55

just have a bunch of visualizations

40:58

of Twilight that I like uses

41:00

my phone background and it's really

41:02

cool. I love it. Yeah, and

41:05

there's something about Hermes that really

41:07

speaks to you, right? Like what

41:09

it represents. And I think that's

41:12

the power of the imaginary realm,

41:14

is that it allows us to

41:16

connect to these archetypes, these images,

41:19

these symbols that are deeply embedded

41:21

in us, and that it really

41:23

is able to unlock a whole

41:26

dimension of being when we allow

41:28

ourselves to go there. Any other

41:30

AI use cases you're excited to

41:33

share? What else would be fun

41:35

to share? I mean, there's so

41:37

many of them. I mean, one

41:40

that I've been doing, and this

41:42

is a little obvious, let's see,

41:44

which one would be? So this

41:47

one was actually really interesting. It's

41:49

it's along the lines of continuing

41:51

to deepen my soul craft work.

41:54

So here let me share my

41:56

screen. So I recently. is part

41:58

of the soul craft work. They

42:01

have something that's called a mandolora,

42:03

which think of it as like

42:06

interlocking circles where you explore different

42:08

parts of your psyche. So it

42:10

could be the part of you

42:13

that wants to rest in your

42:15

achiever. Or it could be the

42:17

part of you that's afraid to

42:20

make a really big decision and

42:22

the part of you that wants

42:24

to, like, wants to move forward.

42:27

Those are just two examples. And

42:29

so what I did is I

42:31

did, I have, you know, I've

42:34

connected with, with in the soul

42:36

craftling, this isn't going to make

42:38

a lot of sense to your

42:41

audience unless they've explored some of

42:43

the work animus, but basically my

42:45

soul is named Fire Snail, which

42:48

is like fiery, creative, slow, patient,

42:50

moving sort of deeply embedded urge

42:52

within myself. And in a lot

42:55

of the times, it's in opposition

42:57

to my achiever. And so I

42:59

had this awesome session with a

43:02

guide where we talked about different

43:04

practices. And one was he's like,

43:06

can you have your soul fire

43:09

snail face off against your achiever?

43:11

And so what I did is

43:13

I recorded in my room, I

43:16

set up a speaker. and I

43:18

divided it into, and the idea

43:20

is you embody the achiever, or

43:23

I embody the achiever, and then

43:25

I embodied my soul, and then

43:27

I sat in the middle of

43:30

it and let the tension of

43:32

the two kind of work its

43:35

magic on me. And this is

43:37

literally exactly what I said. as

43:39

I was going through it. And

43:42

I'm in the most unenlightened state

43:44

when I'm in my achiever, right?

43:46

And it's like, let's go, let's

43:49

fucking go, there's no time, no

43:51

waste, right? And I just leaned

43:53

hard into it. And I had

43:56

this whole output of this experience

43:58

of exploring like the deep. internal

44:00

stories and beliefs of my of

44:03

my achiever. And then what I

44:05

did is I then like sat

44:07

down. I started to take some

44:10

breaths. And then I went into

44:12

what does it feel like to

44:14

be my most embodied spacious patient

44:17

patient version of myself. And then

44:19

I felt into like what wanted

44:21

to emerge. And so the point

44:24

that I'm getting at as I

44:26

go through all this is like

44:28

the depth at which you're now

44:31

able to explore your psyche is

44:33

like unlike anything. And now this

44:35

is like what happened when I

44:38

was holding in the tension where

44:40

I was sitting in between and

44:42

realizing like, oh, actually the achiever

44:45

isn't bad. It's just like when

44:47

it's driving and it's not being

44:49

led by anything. And from this

44:52

I had this crazy realization where

44:54

I was like, actually what happens

44:56

when, because the achiever is all

44:59

ego, so what happens when the

45:01

achiever, the ego is in service

45:04

of the soul? And that was

45:06

like a really groundbreaking realization that

45:08

I had through this exploration. What

45:12

do you feel like when you're

45:14

in your achiever? I think the,

45:16

and I should say that this

45:18

came out of core wound work

45:21

that I did, also with chat

45:23

GPT, where I basically did a

45:25

lot, a deep deep dive into

45:27

my core wound, which is basically

45:30

the wound of unworthiness, that like

45:32

nothing is ever going to be

45:34

enough. I'm not enough. The things

45:36

I do aren't enough. I can't

45:38

measure up. And so what what

45:41

happened was is what I ultimately

45:43

realized is that I had my

45:45

core wound that formed when I

45:47

was really young. This is predominantly

45:49

the paternal wound, the wound that

45:52

I got from my father, and

45:54

springing outside like coming up from

45:56

that wound. was my achiever and

45:58

a bunch of different parts that

46:01

were all about driving me forward,

46:03

not being able to sit still,

46:05

always having to prove myself, not

46:07

feeling enough or worthy. And that's

46:09

a variety if you're using like

46:12

internal family systems, like a number

46:14

of managers and exiles. So I

46:16

was able to even before I

46:18

got to that. the way I

46:20

got to that was through core

46:23

wound work with chat GPT. So

46:25

like it's just it's it's crazy

46:27

like even how it's just unfolding

46:29

where it's like a new door

46:31

opens and I'm like oh I

46:34

did not expect that this was

46:36

the door I'm opening and I

46:38

go through it and it's like

46:40

okay I'm gonna go through and

46:43

I'm gonna go deeper into it.

46:45

Yeah I think that one of

46:47

the really cool things about that

46:49

you're using this for is And

46:51

it's one of the things that

46:54

is so hard about working with

46:56

actual humans is different people have

46:58

different specialties and different perspectives. And

47:00

often you just end up like

47:02

mashed with someone like if you're

47:05

doing coaching or therapy or whatever,

47:07

you just end up matched with

47:09

someone that like has some perspective

47:11

that who knows if that's exactly

47:14

like the right thing for you,

47:16

you know? And what I love

47:18

about what you're doing, and I

47:20

think is just generally like a

47:22

strength of these models, is you

47:25

can go through every conceivable modality

47:27

and discover different modalities and different

47:29

viewpoints. really quickly to find stuff

47:31

that like actually resonates with you.

47:33

And then if you really like

47:36

it, you can go find an

47:38

actual practitioner. Well, and that's what

47:40

I'm doing. Like I'm studying hakomi

47:42

right now. I'm in a two-year

47:45

training with with the Institute and

47:47

I'm working with an incredible hakomi

47:49

therapist. I mean, she's phenomenal. And

47:51

I asked her permission. I'm like,

47:53

can I record these sessions? And

47:56

so what I'll do is I

47:58

will... I will. I've created a

48:00

whole custom. prompt for to record

48:02

our sessions and spit out basically

48:04

an output that then becomes the

48:07

integration point. So the thing that

48:09

I'm really getting excited about and

48:11

I use this in my coaching

48:13

practice as well where I have

48:16

custom prompts for my clients and

48:18

then I share the notes with

48:20

them and to me the magic

48:22

is this is that you get

48:24

the notes you get the download

48:27

and then that becomes the integration

48:29

point. the in between and and

48:31

the depth that I'm now able

48:33

to go like I think about

48:35

when I got sober a decade

48:38

ago I would go to therapy

48:40

I'd have a conversation I'd be

48:42

like see you later and an

48:44

hour later I totally forget what

48:46

we talked about now I have

48:49

like a high fidelity snapshot of

48:51

the of the of the conversation

48:53

yeah it's so I mean it's

48:55

so hard to make progress to

48:58

make progress if It's like once

49:00

a week and it's the once

49:02

a week is the only time

49:04

you're thinking about it. And having

49:06

a little record and buddy that

49:09

can kind of like push you

49:11

in the right ways in between

49:13

is amazing. Yeah, and I and

49:15

I think there's something that I

49:17

want to touch on because. I

49:20

think I actually decided to leave

49:22

Twitter over the weekend, but before

49:24

I departed, I saw a tweet

49:26

from you about voice interfaces, and

49:29

I had this major realization over

49:31

the summer. My wife got me

49:33

the book how to ADHD. I

49:35

was diagnosed with ADD when I

49:37

was a kid, and I was

49:40

like, oh, I'm totally over ADD.

49:42

meditation and I'm like enlightened now

49:44

obviously joking and but she's like

49:46

I want you to read this

49:48

book it's come recommended and I

49:51

had this epiphany where I'm like

49:53

oh this is the way my

49:55

brain works like I thought that

49:57

my was broken, but it just

50:00

I realize that it processes differently.

50:02

And so one of the ways

50:04

in which my ADD shows up

50:06

is if I try to type

50:08

something, my mind moves so much

50:11

faster than I can type, that

50:13

then I get, I lose my

50:15

train of thought, I get frustrated.

50:17

And what I've become, begun to

50:19

realize is voice is actually for

50:22

me such a natural interface that

50:24

It allows me to process at

50:26

the speed of thought now because

50:28

I don't have to type and

50:31

it's just unlocked so much more

50:33

for me. And so I think

50:35

like there's also we talk about

50:37

this exploration of of consciousness, but

50:39

I also think that these tools

50:42

can really help those that are

50:44

neuro divergent in certain ways to

50:46

be able to process in a

50:48

way that feels more natural. It's

50:50

and I think it reveals like

50:53

neuro diversion is quote unquote that

50:55

like maybe we wouldn't even have

50:57

thought of as being neuro divergent

50:59

like processing speech better than text

51:01

is like not like a category

51:04

that people get help for you

51:06

know or like everyone's coding now

51:08

right and a lot of people

51:10

that are that are vibe coding

51:13

like maybe they just didn't really

51:15

have a lot of patients for

51:17

the like building block abstractions of

51:19

programming but now that you don't

51:21

really need to worry about what

51:24

an if statement is as much

51:26

like they can code like it

51:28

fills in all those gaps and

51:30

it and like you're saying it

51:32

unlocks all this stuff or like

51:35

even for me like I fell

51:37

off my scooter in Panama and

51:39

so my wrist is all messed

51:41

up and I can't type but

51:44

I'm talking to right now and

51:46

like it's really interesting because I

51:48

I feel like I'm cheating like

51:50

it's so much easier to write

51:52

in certain ways. It's so much

51:55

easier. It's so much easier. It's

51:57

so much easier. And like, and

51:59

also my writing is different. Like

52:01

my writing voice when I'm speaking

52:03

is different from my right. voice

52:06

when I'm typing and I actually

52:08

like the vocal quality of it

52:10

and so it's an interesting thing

52:12

to try to like lean into

52:15

a little bit as like stylistically

52:17

so it's it's very cool. And

52:19

what I've been doing because I

52:21

love to write and and you

52:23

know hearing you really lean into

52:26

writing that that let me up

52:28

because as I've been thinking about

52:30

the next iteration of Downshift I'm

52:32

like that's all I want to

52:34

do. I will still and I

52:37

still work with Rachel. as my

52:39

editor. Oh, amazing. Yeah. So I

52:41

work with, I use chat GPT

52:43

in certain ways, I still work

52:46

with the human editor, but I

52:48

will often write the outline and

52:50

the first first draft handwritten. I

52:52

love handwritten because it's so unfiltered.

52:54

And then what I'll do is

52:57

I'll read it out loud. and

52:59

then I'll fill in gaps as

53:01

I'm reading it and it becomes

53:03

this like organic process where it's

53:05

like I've written by hand a

53:08

slow process then I get into

53:10

this flow as I'm reading it

53:12

out loud and adding and adjusting

53:14

and then instructing and then I

53:16

get a high fidelity first draft

53:19

that is so great that then

53:21

I share with Rachel and then

53:23

that kicks off the process. That's

53:25

very cool. That's very cool. I'm

53:28

excited to see what you write.

53:30

Yeah, well you should check out

53:32

my last few pieces. They've been

53:34

great. I will do that. Yeah.

53:36

Well this has been amazing. Expected

53:39

but unexpected, the wild and weird

53:41

places we went in this conversation.

53:43

I really appreciate you coming on

53:45

and sharing with us. And for

53:47

people who want to learn more

53:50

about you and about your work

53:52

and about downshift work, and they

53:54

find you. Yeah, they can they

53:56

can find me at schlaf.co S-C-H-L-A-F-D-C-O

53:59

or the work that we're doing

54:01

at downshift at downshift dot me.

54:03

Amazing. Thanks for coming on. Yeah.

54:05

And one last point, I do

54:07

believe that the coaching and the

54:10

therapy world is gonna get so

54:12

massively disrupted from AI. I don't

54:14

think it's gonna, I think there's

54:16

still gonna be human to human

54:18

experiences, but it's gonna be, it's

54:21

gonna be a highly premium product

54:23

and it's gonna be much more

54:25

experiential. kind of started as, and

54:27

then we were like, well, we

54:30

have to kind of make it

54:32

broadly available, and then we have

54:34

to manualize it, and then all

54:36

that didn't really work. And yeah,

54:38

I think that, yeah, I agree

54:41

with you. So it's going to

54:43

be fascinating to see how this

54:45

all unfolds, but it's going to

54:47

be profound. It's really going to

54:49

be profound. Well, I'm excited. Yeah,

54:52

this was fun. You

55:00

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55:41

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