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at MS. Well everyone you won't

1:01

be surprised to hear because you

1:03

may be among them it turns

1:06

out the American people don't love

1:08

watching Donald Trump and

1:10

Elon Musk take an absolute wrecking

1:12

ball to the federal government. I

1:15

mean today we saw massive protests

1:17

right here in Washington DC and

1:20

also all across the country. You

1:22

can see some of the photos

1:24

on our screen. We saw protests

1:27

in big cities, in small towns,

1:29

in its state capitals. We

1:31

saw just how pissed off people are

1:34

about what's happening right now. And who

1:36

could blame them? I mean, we just learned

1:38

that Elon Moshekru was trying

1:41

to get access to personal

1:43

taxpayer-payer data at the IRS. So

1:45

basically, the world's richest man

1:47

and his band of 20-something

1:50

cronies want access to your

1:52

personal data. They want access to

1:54

your tax returns. Your addresses.

1:57

Your employment information, your banking

1:59

details. and your social security

2:01

numbers. I mean, this is the kind

2:04

of issue that hits home for all of

2:06

us. I'm sure it hits home for you,

2:08

because most of us pay taxes, right?

2:10

Just like most of us fly in

2:12

on airplanes. And today, unbelievably, there

2:15

was another major commercial airline

2:17

incident. A Delta plane that

2:20

took off from Minneapolis flipped over

2:22

when it was attempting to land

2:24

in Toronto. Nobody was killed,

2:26

but at least 17 people were injured.

2:29

And of course it's just the latest

2:31

in a series of air incidents since

2:33

Trump was sworn in. And since

2:35

an army helicopter and an American

2:37

Airlines plane collided right here in

2:39

Washington, killing 67 people. Well today,

2:41

just 19 days after that tragedy, we

2:44

are also getting new details about the

2:46

Trump administration's purge of hundreds of critical

2:48

air safety workers at the FAA. And

2:50

I'm going to go into more detail

2:53

also with somebody who knows a lot

2:55

about it in just a moment. But

2:57

the larger point is this. Donald

2:59

Trump and Elon Musk are screwing

3:01

around with government in all sorts

3:03

of ways, in ways that impact you

3:06

personally, and in ways that impact

3:08

our national security and our safety

3:10

more broadly. And in that process, they

3:12

are teaching us a whole lot about

3:14

all of the ways that government actually

3:17

keeps us safe. For example, I mean, when

3:19

the US military needs to deploy

3:21

more nuclear warheads on its planes

3:23

and submarines to defend us, Do you

3:25

know who actually holds the components

3:28

for those weapons? Who puts them

3:30

together, makes sure they're safe, and

3:32

delivers them to the Pentagon? Well,

3:34

most of that work is actually

3:36

done by the same people who

3:38

also refurbish old nuclear weapons and

3:41

dismantle the retired ones. And it all

3:43

happens at one plant on the sandy

3:45

plains outside of Amarillo, Texas, called

3:47

the Pantex plant. It's worthy employees

3:50

and contractors for the Department

3:52

of Energy are constantly inspecting

3:54

and outfitting America's nuclear weapons

3:56

with high explosives as well

3:58

as their cores of high

4:00

radioactive uranium and plutonium.

4:02

All of this highly secretive, highly

4:05

dangerous work is run by the

4:07

Department of Energy's National

4:10

Nuclear Security Administration.

4:12

They oversee the U.S. nuclear stockpile

4:14

and its components, not

4:16

just at Pantex, but at an

4:19

entire network of plants, labs, and

4:21

bases across the country. The NNSA

4:23

does all of that. and transports

4:25

nuclear material on US highways using

4:27

a highly trained and heavily armed

4:29

fleet of trucks and vehicles.

4:31

And this is all overseen by career

4:33

staff with very very specific expertise for

4:36

some of them decades of it. It's

4:38

also the sort of government function that we

4:40

don't think about all the time, I hope

4:42

you don't think about all the time, but

4:45

it's always working in the background.

4:47

It has to work because you can't mess

4:49

around with the people who handle our

4:51

nuclear weapons. Well, I mean at least you...

4:53

thought you can't. The latest bit

4:55

of information coming in from

4:57

the National Nuclear Security Agency

5:00

which is tasked with overseeing

5:02

and building the nation's nuclear

5:05

weapons stockpile, their notices have

5:07

gone out with termination for

5:09

probationary employees effective immediately.

5:12

That's right. So as part of

5:14

its purge of government employees, Elon

5:16

Musk and his Mary Band

5:18

of young dojaxmen. unilaterally

5:20

fired 350 workers at the

5:23

agency responsible for safeguarding nuclear

5:25

arms components. And almost

5:27

immediately, they realized they'd

5:29

made a terrible mistake.

5:32

The NBC News has obtained an

5:34

email sent to employees at the

5:36

National Nuclear Security Administration. It says

5:39

in part the termination letters for

5:41

some NNSA probationary employees are being

5:43

rescinded, adding that officials do not

5:45

have a good way to get

5:48

in touch with those personnel. Do

5:50

not have a good way to get in

5:52

touch. Okay, that's right. Under Elon Musk's eye,

5:54

the Trump White House fired a chunk of

5:57

the NNSA workforce and one of the hardest

5:59

hit office... was the pan-text plant that

6:01

I was just talking about near

6:03

Amarillo, Texas. They saw about 30%

6:05

of the cuts. You know, that's

6:07

the plant where employees work on

6:09

reassembling warheads, one of the most

6:11

sensitive jobs across the nuclear weapons

6:13

enterprise, with the highest levels of

6:16

clearance. But now the geniuses who

6:18

let those employees go can't figure

6:20

out how to unfire the people

6:22

had just locked out of government

6:24

buildings and email. You literally can't

6:26

make it up sometimes. The director

6:28

of the Arms Control Association told

6:30

the AP, quote, the Doge people

6:32

are coming in with absolutely no

6:34

knowledge of what these departments are

6:36

responsible for. So yes, they are

6:38

messing around with the people who

6:40

literally handle our nuclear bombs. That's

6:42

what Donald Trump and Elon Musk

6:44

are doing. Now at the same

6:46

time, the Trump administration is firing

6:48

hundreds of employees at the FAA,

6:50

just weeks after the deadliest US

6:52

air disaster in decades. Those firings

6:54

reportedly include personnel hired for FAA

6:57

radar, landing, and navigational aid maintenance,

6:59

as well as a technician who

7:01

was working on a critical cruise

7:03

missile defense radar system. Now as

7:05

I mentioned, there's already been a

7:07

spike in serious and fatal crashes

7:09

since Trump took office, and since

7:11

the FAA's chief resigned, in accordance

7:13

with the demands of Elon Musk.

7:15

And that list doesn't even include

7:17

the latest. That Delta plane that

7:19

crash landed and flipped on the

7:21

runway in Toronto. That flight left

7:23

from Minneapolis under FAA supervision, though

7:25

it was being directed at the

7:27

time of the crash by their

7:29

Canadian counterparts. Even still, lots of

7:31

Americans are understandably wondering, you may

7:33

be too, if Trump's FAA is

7:36

still able to keep air travel

7:38

safe. Does it more firings of

7:40

critical air safety personnel are underway?

7:42

So yes, people are pissed, and

7:44

it is not hard to see

7:46

why. And as we watch these

7:48

protests play out across the country,

7:50

we're also watching a metaphorical ticking

7:52

ticking time bomb. in a country

7:54

where we suddenly have to worry

7:56

about the safety of our air

7:58

travel and of our literal nuclear

8:00

bombs. Starting us off tonight is

8:02

David Spiro. He's the president of

8:04

the Professional Aviation Safety Special. unit.

8:06

David, thank you so much for

8:08

taking the time here. I mentioned

8:10

this and I know you've probably

8:12

been answering this question from friends

8:15

and family as well. People are

8:17

understandably a little freaked out right

8:19

now about air travel and we're

8:21

simultaneously seeing all of these layoffs,

8:23

these firings that are happening under

8:25

Donald Trump and Elon Musk as

8:27

well as what feels like an

8:29

increase in incidents in the air.

8:31

wonder how you make sense of

8:33

what's happening that all happening simultaneously.

8:35

Well thank you for having me

8:37

on it. It's been a difficult

8:39

few weeks obviously and our hearts

8:41

go out to the passengers on

8:43

a plane today, the crew, the

8:45

first responders, happily at the moment

8:47

there's been no fatalities so hopefully

8:49

that that stays the way it

8:51

is. I think that it's important

8:54

to note that the US air

8:56

traffic control system is safe. And

8:58

our members are a key reason

9:00

why that's the case. We work

9:02

with integrity. We work with skill.

9:04

And we have a deep background

9:06

in how to maintain the air

9:08

traffic control system and not oversee

9:10

it. But as you pointed out,

9:12

just this past Friday, about 300

9:14

folks. 400 people got the X

9:16

on St. Valentine's Day, right? Out

9:18

to dinner and enjoying a nice

9:20

evening and find out they lost

9:22

their job. We didn't get any

9:24

notice from the FAA. At this

9:26

point right now, we don't know

9:28

if it's 300, 400, or 1,000.

9:30

So it could be, sorry, I

9:33

just want to pause on that.

9:35

It could be way more than

9:37

the 350 that had been reported.

9:39

It could be. They haven't told

9:41

us who it is. as far

9:43

as we're concerned, the inspectors and

9:45

the technicians, they could, we have

9:47

probationary inspectors and technicians that could

9:49

possibly have gotten the X, but

9:51

we don't know that for certain.

9:53

All we're getting right now is

9:55

our members reaching out to us

9:57

and telling us, hey, I lost

9:59

my job. And we're talking about.

10:01

people that support the entire air

10:03

traffic control system by virtue of

10:05

the support work that they do.

10:07

So let me start out and

10:09

talk about aeronautical information specialists. They

10:12

are a skilled group of people

10:14

that create charts, navigational processes, a

10:16

performance-based navigation where aircraft can fly

10:18

in a lot more efficiently. It

10:20

takes a long time to develop

10:22

those skills. There's at least 30

10:24

of them that are probationary employees

10:26

in the FAA that we represent.

10:28

And quite honestly, if they're gone,

10:30

who's going to create that product?

10:32

And the work that our aviation

10:34

safety assistance do for inspectors to

10:36

make sure that they can actually

10:38

go out and ramp airplanes and

10:40

check on pilots and airworthiness of

10:42

aircraft, they do all of that

10:44

stuff because they have these support

10:46

groups behind them. You mentioned some

10:48

of the skills and maybe those

10:50

are the main ones for people

10:53

to understand, but for people who

10:55

are watching who aren't experts, for

10:57

all of these layoffs and it

10:59

was already understaffed to begin with.

11:01

What is the impact on airports

11:03

and the ability to safely land

11:05

planes? How should people understand that

11:07

if these cuts continue? Well, if

11:09

these cuts continue, I don't know

11:11

how far into the bone you

11:13

can go before you have to

11:15

start looking at, let's look at

11:17

navigational or automation systems. that air

11:19

traffic controllers use communications, that they

11:21

use to get the airplanes up

11:23

in the air and down to

11:25

their destination and people there safely.

11:27

If we don't have the right

11:29

people with the right skill sets

11:32

working in these locations, or if

11:34

they're off doing something else because

11:36

they don't have that support group

11:38

anymore, then quite honestly we're going

11:40

to have delays. There's always backup

11:42

systems, but if I don't have

11:44

the right person in the right

11:46

place to be able to restore

11:48

a System like happened in Chicago

11:50

last year where we didn't have

11:52

anyone on duty that could intervene

11:54

in in the automation system Where

11:56

they were? having errors coming through

11:58

and controllers couldn't tell what the

12:00

planes were. So we had to

12:02

stop, we had stops at five

12:04

airports in the Chicago area. That

12:06

sort of thing is because you

12:08

don't have the right person in

12:11

the right place. Now if we're

12:13

going to have to leave the

12:15

work that we do and go

12:17

off somewhere else to take care

12:19

of work that someone else was

12:21

doing for us to make sure

12:23

that we can do our jobs,

12:25

then that's going to make it

12:27

even more difficult. There was a

12:29

team, some of these cuts came

12:31

at the, many of them came

12:33

at the order of Elon Musk

12:35

and his Doge team, and there

12:37

was a team from his SpaceX

12:39

rocket company that was reportedly, that

12:41

visited the FAA command center today.

12:43

Now the FAA regulates SpaceX, as

12:45

I understand it. How concerned are

12:47

you about that type of engagement?

12:50

And do you think there's a

12:52

conflict? What do you think of

12:54

the conflict there? Well, our employees

12:56

that we represent have to sign

12:58

financial disclosure agreements to make sure

13:00

they don't have any conflicts. Our

13:02

aviation safety inspectors, they have to

13:04

make sure that the carriers that

13:06

they're overseeing, they don't have a

13:08

conflict with them. They can't, if

13:10

there's a shutdown, hopefully there isn't,

13:12

but if there's a shutdown, they

13:14

can't go and take a job.

13:16

working in the aviation industry that

13:18

they oversee because that's a conflict

13:20

of interest. So you have to,

13:22

I think, you know, what's good

13:24

for the, who's as good for

13:26

the gander. So I'm so grateful

13:29

you came in and talked to

13:31

us. Thank you so much for

13:33

taking the time. I really appreciate

13:35

it. And coming up, Elon Musk

13:37

and his Joe's crew are headed

13:39

to the IRS, and just in

13:41

the last hour we learn they're

13:43

now inside the Social Security Administration.

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now at Universal Orlando. Okay,

15:08

so I just mentioned this earlier,

15:10

but I do want to take

15:12

a deeper look at the latest

15:14

frontier in Elon Musk's quest to

15:16

infiltrate the government's most sensitive systems,

15:18

because this time it's one that

15:20

could affect every single one of

15:22

you watching at home. I mean,

15:25

late yesterday we learned that a

15:27

member of Musk's team is seeking

15:29

access to something called the Integrated

15:31

Data Retrieval System at the IRS.

15:33

And I know that that may

15:35

just sound like some fancy bureaucratic

15:37

term, but in plain English, and

15:39

maybe some of you know what

15:41

that is, it means he's trying

15:44

to access sensitive, detailed financial information

15:46

about every single taxpayer in this

15:48

country. So I think it's really

15:50

worth taking a step back and

15:52

asking a few questions here. Like

15:54

for starters. Who the heck is

15:56

this guy who might very soon

15:58

have access to all this information?

16:00

I don't miss me in Elon

16:02

Musk. You might want to sit

16:05

down for this one if you're

16:07

not already. His name is Gavin

16:09

Kleiger. He graduated college in 20...

16:11

and he has a computer science

16:13

background. And if you're thinking, okay,

16:15

he's young, and maybe he doesn't

16:17

have much government experience, but that

16:19

doesn't seem so bad, just you

16:21

wait. The two posts currently up

16:24

on his sub stack are titled,

16:26

The Curious Case of Matt Gates,

16:28

how the deep state destroys its

16:30

enemies, and Pete Hexeth as Secretary

16:32

of Defense, the warrior Washington fears.

16:34

According to a report from Reuters,

16:36

over the past few months, Kiger

16:38

has amplified white supremacist and misogynists

16:40

online, including reposting content from white

16:43

supremacist Nick Fuentes, who himself has

16:45

been banned, remember, at times from

16:47

social media platforms for hate speech.

16:49

So those are the kind of

16:51

views that the guy who might

16:53

get access to some of our

16:55

most sensitive personal information chooses to

16:57

amplify. Now, however unsettling that answer

16:59

may be, that's who we might

17:01

soon see all of our data.

17:04

And that brings me to my

17:06

next question. Why do they want

17:08

it? And that question is a

17:10

little trickier to answer. But consider

17:12

this. The IRS holds tax information

17:14

on every American. That includes must

17:16

competitors who are vying against him

17:18

for government contracts. That includes people

17:20

who must and Trump deem their

17:23

political enemies. That includes people in

17:25

the government, people in the media,

17:27

people just to make them mad

17:29

for any particular reason at any

17:31

moment. In other words, it's a

17:33

ready-made blackmail list of information on

17:35

people they may want to go

17:37

after. If that wasn't bad enough,

17:39

the Washington Post reported late tonight

17:42

that the acting commissioner of the

17:44

Social Security Administration just left her

17:46

job over Doge's attempts to access

17:48

the agency's most sensitive files. That's

17:50

a lot. And joining me now

17:52

is Nurem Eisen. He's the former

17:54

White House ethics are under President

17:56

Obama and the co-founder of the

17:58

contrarian. It's great to see you.

18:00

So Norm, you have a lot

18:03

of, you're on the front lines

18:05

I would say of trying to

18:07

hold Elon Musk and the Doge

18:09

team accountable and I just kind

18:11

of walked through this attempt to

18:13

access sensitive information this time at

18:15

the IRS which feels very concerning

18:17

to me. What are the legal...

18:19

roadblocks that can be put in

18:22

place here? What are you working

18:24

on? What's next? Jen, since the

18:26

Nixon administration, which abused this information,

18:28

the most personal financial data of

18:30

you and me and everybody is

18:32

worse than it is watching it

18:34

is because it's everyone Nixon was

18:36

looking for just a few of

18:38

his enemies since that time it

18:41

has been illegal for people to

18:43

have broad access to this data

18:45

this is the latest concerning element

18:47

and we've gone to court again

18:49

and again at state democracy defenders

18:51

fund filing the very first lawsuit

18:53

saying dojo illegal, getting an order

18:55

from the court blocking Mr. Musk

18:57

and Dosh out of the Treasury's

18:59

Bureau of Financial Systems, those very

19:02

extensive databases with payments made across

19:04

the country, and now they're trying

19:06

to get a hold of IRS

19:08

and Social Security data. There's no

19:10

purpose to it. We're not going

19:12

to allow it. We're going to

19:14

go to court and stop it.

19:16

Not me, you. Yes, we're going

19:18

to court every day tomorrow. We'll

19:21

be in court because Mr. Musk's

19:23

operations across all of the federal

19:25

government. He's a kind of super

19:27

cabinet member, Jen. The Constitution doesn't

19:29

allow that. If you're a regular

19:31

cabinet member, you have to be

19:33

approved by Congress. This call the

19:35

appointments clause. He's not properly appointed.

19:37

So tomorrow will be in court

19:40

to stop him for that constitutional

19:42

violation and we are going to

19:44

fight this effort to penetrate these

19:46

tax records as well. I'm grateful.

19:48

I don't think you need a

19:50

lot of sleep because you're working

19:52

very hard. Let me ask you

19:54

because today there was Judge Chucken

19:56

did hear arguments from 14 states

19:58

who say the authority granted some

20:01

musk from Doja's unconstitutional. We don't

20:03

know yet how she's going to

20:05

rule. It appears as if... She's

20:07

not going to immediately block Musk

20:09

or that's... That's my read, I

20:11

want to know yours. But what

20:13

is your take from what you

20:15

saw today and what you heard

20:17

her say today? Well, to me,

20:20

the thing that stood out from

20:22

the hearing was in the second

20:24

half of the hearing when the

20:26

government got up to argue and

20:28

claim that Mr. Musk's functioning was

20:30

properly authorized, she says, well, where's

20:32

the proof? And she was very

20:34

skeptical of the merits. Now she

20:36

did say that goes to the

20:38

merits of the case. And I

20:41

think she was suggesting that she

20:43

wants to decide this not on

20:45

a TRO basis, but on a

20:47

slightly more extended basis. The states

20:49

were right to bring that case.

20:51

I respectfully... Agree with the state's

20:53

position, not Judge Chutkin, that the

20:55

lives of our AGs and our

20:57

states are being turned upside down

21:00

by this government chaos, the questions

21:02

about airline safety, nuclear safety, and

21:04

many more impacts in the states.

21:06

But tomorrow will be in court.

21:08

not far in Greenbelt, Green Belt,

21:10

Maryland. And we're representing over two

21:12

dozen individual government employees whose lives

21:14

have been turned upside down. That's

21:16

what Judge Shuttken wanted today. That

21:19

kind of, we have that evidence

21:21

and we're going to go to

21:23

court and we are going to

21:25

seek, start the process of seeking

21:27

relief for those individuals. Mr. Musk

21:29

is operating in violation of the

21:31

Constitution. We're going to start enforcing

21:33

that constitution in our latest case.

21:35

Let me ask you, it's see,

21:37

I wonder why. It seems to

21:40

be you're getting a little bit

21:42

under Elon Musk's, you know, a

21:44

little bit under his skin here.

21:46

He tweeted, he X. He peck

21:48

posted on X about you a

21:50

number of times today. What do

21:52

you do about that? What do

21:54

you say in response to it?

21:56

Many, many, tweets today. Many were

21:59

showing them on the screen. About

22:01

our work and our case. and

22:03

me from Mr. Musk. Jen, he's

22:05

supposed to be in charge of

22:07

government efficiency. How does he have

22:09

time to do all this tweeting?

22:11

I think he's not used to

22:13

being held accountable. But what we're

22:15

doing in our cases The case

22:18

tomorrow under the Constitution, but we

22:20

also have done dozens of FOIA

22:22

requests. I applied to be a

22:24

member of the Doge. They said,

22:26

I'm not welcome. Because of my

22:28

political affiliation, we filed the very

22:30

first case of any kind against

22:32

the Trump administration saying the Doge

22:34

was illegal right after Donald Trump

22:36

was sworn in. We got that

22:39

treasury order. We're holding... Musk and

22:41

Doge and Trump accountable. And Mr.

22:43

Musk doesn't seem to be used

22:45

to that. But you know what?

22:47

I take those tweets as a

22:49

backhanded compliment and they are going

22:51

to spur me on to bring

22:53

even more litigation when necessary to

22:55

defend the constitution and laws from

22:58

the Trump Musk chaos campaign. Norm

23:00

Eisen, thank you. Always a pleasure

23:02

seeing you. We'll be watching very

23:04

closely. All the courts are going

23:06

to be in in the next

23:08

couple of weeks. We appreciate it.

23:10

Coming up, hundreds of thousands of

23:12

people took to the streets today

23:14

all across the country to protest

23:17

Donald Trump and Elon Musk. D.N.C.

23:19

Vice Chair David Hogg and longtime

23:21

Bernie Sanders advisor to Shakur is

23:23

here, know how activism can work

23:25

at its best, and they're going

23:27

to join me next. Stay

23:29

connected with the MSNVC app. Watch your

23:32

favorite shows live, read live blogs and

23:34

in-depth essays, and listen to coverage as

23:36

it unfolds. Visit msnvc.com/app to download. radically

23:38

expand the power of the presidency. None

23:40

of that is a huge surprise but

23:43

that's what we've seen play out. And

23:45

in response to that there's been a

23:47

national outcry over these potentially illegal actions.

23:49

Trump over the weekend posted quote he

23:51

who saves his country does not violate

23:53

any law. It's not actually true. So

23:56

yes, the President of the United States

23:58

and his allies are promoting a lawless

24:00

vision of the executive branch, and today

24:02

on President's Day, thousands of Americans, you

24:04

can see some video there, took the

24:07

streets in response. Americans marched all across

24:09

the country from deep blue cities like

24:11

New York and DC to solidly red

24:13

states like Florida and Texas, and what

24:15

one grassroots organization dubbed, no kings on

24:17

President's Day. These protesters some of whom

24:20

marched in below freezing temperatures, felt the

24:22

urgent need to speak out against this

24:24

administration's anti-democratic policies, and against this unprecedented

24:26

power grab from Donald Trump and Elon

24:28

Musk. It's a good sign. David Hugge

24:30

is the vice chair of the DNC

24:33

and the co-founder of March for our

24:35

lives. Fashakir is a senior advisor to

24:37

Senator Bernie Sanders and the executive director

24:39

of More Perfect Union. They both join

24:41

me now. It's great to see you

24:44

both. And we want I wanted to

24:46

talk to you because I think it's

24:48

so important for people to hear what

24:50

is happening with Democrats and all of

24:52

the movements that are happening. Let me

24:54

start just with the protest. totally changed

24:57

things. What's next? What do people who

24:59

want to be active and engaged? What

25:01

do they do next? Well, for me,

25:03

what I'm thinking about are all the

25:05

young people that originally mobilized with us

25:08

at the first March for our lives

25:10

after the shooting in Parkland. Our country

25:12

was in a very similar moment at

25:14

that time where we... Republicans had the

25:16

House, the Senate, and the presidency. We

25:18

were told repeatedly that we wouldn't be

25:21

able to create change. And a lot

25:23

of those young people have now graduated

25:25

college. A lot of them are, even

25:27

if they didn't go to college, you're

25:29

now old enough to run for office.

25:31

And I think what we need to

25:34

do is help bring those young people

25:36

into office now to be the change

25:38

that we've wanted for so long, but

25:40

have failed to create. So for me,

25:42

that's what I think that for that

25:45

next step. to support those young leaders

25:47

and bringing in that new generation. You

25:49

were just talking about how Senator Sanders

25:51

is going to be out there, others

25:53

will be out there, exciting people. One

25:55

of the things that I think you're

25:58

particularly good at is speaking in English

26:00

about the challenges people are facing out

26:02

there, how should people be doing that

26:04

about the threats that Elon Musk and

26:06

Donald Trump pose? There's obviously every day

26:08

there's trying to confuse you, draw chaos,

26:11

put you in a whirlwind, make you

26:13

feel like, I don't even know what

26:15

the hell's going on. And if you

26:17

focus in, I do think there's an

26:19

opportunity to show resistance in a meaningful

26:22

and impactful way, we're going, as I

26:24

mentioned, Senator Sanders, I think we're going

26:26

to a couple of congressional districts that

26:28

Republicans won by the narrowest of margins,

26:30

by less than 1%. And Omaha and

26:32

in Iowa City. And there's a few

26:35

of these. There's like, you know, 10

26:37

to 12, 15 districts across America, try

26:39

to hit them up. And I think

26:41

if you look at the next three

26:43

months, Republicans are going to have a

26:46

hell of a hell of a time

26:48

trying to pass Medicaid cuts that would

26:50

hurt. tremendously across their entire districts, headstarred,

26:52

meals on wheels, the veterans already being

26:54

laid off from veterans, hospitals, community centers,

26:56

already facing cuts. These are where regular

26:59

working class Americans need champions. In the

27:01

Democratic Party, looking to be a working

27:03

class party looking to be a working

27:05

class party that needs to associate with

27:07

those people, particularly in some of these

27:09

key districts, letting people know that we

27:12

can peel off some of these votes.

27:14

We can create enough. We remember the

27:16

CT Party Party of 2010. I resonate

27:18

very much with what he just said.

27:20

What do you think, we're just talking

27:23

about young people and inspiring young people,

27:25

and they may respond to some of

27:27

that stuff, what do you think the

27:29

key messages about what the Democrats are

27:31

for and what they represent? are important

27:33

for young people to hear because sometimes

27:36

we get wrapped up in their oligarchs

27:38

surrounding Trump. That's important. It's true. But

27:40

like, how does it translate to people?

27:42

Well, I think what we've got to

27:44

talk about is what we're doing for

27:46

them, right? Whether it's talking about addressing

27:49

the astronomical costs of education or whether

27:51

it's addressing the astronomical costs of rents

27:53

that we've seen go up so much

27:55

around the country. over the past four

27:57

years in particular since COVID. And if

28:00

we're not talking about those issues, it's

28:02

not going to resonate with them. If

28:04

we're just out there talking like we're

28:06

in a bunch of, you know, like

28:08

we're in a master's class, you know,

28:10

some graduate school class talking about public

28:13

policy, it's not going to work. We

28:15

need to talk about how we're going

28:17

to talk about how we're going to

28:19

get back to building more transit, and

28:21

how we're going to build communities that

28:24

young people actually want to want to

28:26

stay in and have families at the

28:28

same time because they can't afford to

28:30

be there anymore. So I think that's

28:32

part of it. But more than anything,

28:34

people need to feel heard and I

28:37

think that it is incumbent on the

28:39

Democratic Party that we pass the mic

28:41

to the people that are being the

28:43

most affected by this. When, for example,

28:45

in 22, when the Pact Act was

28:47

sung by Republicans, I happened to be

28:50

in DC at the same time. I

28:52

showed up on the steps of the

28:54

United States Senate where many veterans who

28:56

were directly affected by that legislation being

28:58

sunk. were literally sleeping out there protesting

29:01

to pass. And what I did is

29:03

I gave them my Twitter and I

29:05

said, tell us your story. I think

29:07

that's exactly what we need to be

29:09

doing with these federal workers that have

29:11

been laid off and we need to

29:14

be connecting when you have your medical

29:16

care impacted because they're screwing with so

29:18

many of these people's employment, when there's

29:20

veterans that are impacted, we need to

29:22

make sure people know that is because

29:24

of the chaos that Donald Trump has

29:27

ensued. But importantly, when we come back

29:29

into power because we will. that we're

29:31

going to govern and we're going to

29:33

make it right. Anyone, we would love

29:35

to tell people stories. I'm just going

29:38

to offer our services to that here

29:40

as well. I think that's such an

29:42

important part for people to hear. Let

29:44

me ask you both. I mean, there's

29:46

leadership all across the country. There's grassroots

29:48

leaders. People don't even know the names

29:51

up right now. There's state reps who

29:53

are going to be future leaders. There

29:55

is in Washington, obviously Democrats are in

29:57

the minority in the House and the

29:59

House and the Senate. What do you

30:02

think of how they've been doing so

30:04

far in pushing back? And what could

30:06

they be doing more of? I would

30:08

like to see them get out of

30:10

DC. I know it's challenging because there

30:12

are a lot of microphones here and

30:15

there's federal buildings and there's federal workers

30:17

and obviously there's a need to make

30:19

the case that those federal workers are

30:21

getting screwed. But the power right now

30:23

being a working class. party is out

30:25

there in the country. When you look

30:28

at, you know, people who are, who

30:30

are Medicaid recipients, where they work at

30:32

Walmart, they work at McDonald's, go and

30:34

feature their stories, people, farmers, all across

30:36

red states, who were given promised grant

30:39

money for building solar installations on their

30:41

farm, now being pulled back. People, just

30:43

this week, there were stories in Alabama,

30:45

you know, low-income workers now being told

30:47

they had paid $100 dollars more on

30:49

LIHE, right? They need champions. They need

30:52

to have their stories told. Their names

30:54

and faces are really critical. For many

30:56

of these red state areas, they're not

30:58

used to seeing Democrats show up and

31:00

support them. What a power to turn

31:02

the mic over in that way. Turn

31:05

your social media platform over to these

31:07

individuals who... are looking for a champion

31:09

to say, hey, I'm getting hurt unnecessarily

31:11

by somebody who, a billionaire who, the

31:13

richest man of the planet, acting on

31:16

a whim, decided I'm the casual to

31:18

hear. What? And I think if we

31:20

do that right, there's power, there's a

31:22

populist revolt. People move people, data doesn't

31:24

move people. That's one of the things

31:26

I learned from 20 years in politics.

31:29

I hope you both will come back.

31:31

It was great talking with you. I

31:33

think a really important, powerful message for

31:35

people to hear, as and David. Thank

31:37

you so much. Coming up, four top

31:40

New York City officials resign today as

31:42

the pressure mounts on the governor of

31:44

New York to remove Mayor Eric Adams

31:46

from office. We'll be right back. Stay

31:48

connected with the MSNDC app, bringing you

31:50

breaking news and analysis anytime, anywhere. Let's

31:53

get up to speed. We've got some

31:55

breaking news right now. Watch your favorite

31:57

shows live. There's a lot happening here

31:59

in Washington, as Donald Trump's second term

32:01

starts to take shape. Read live blogs

32:03

and in-depth essays and listen to coverage

32:06

as it unfolds. Go beyond the what

32:08

to understand the why. Download the app

32:10

now at MS nbc.com/app. So we try

32:12

to make sense of the quid pro

32:14

quo between New York City Mayor Eric

32:17

Adams and Trump's Justice Department to keep

32:19

him in office and out of jail.

32:21

We're going to just turn back the

32:23

clock for just... a little moment here,

32:25

to the late 90s. And I don't

32:27

mean the 1990s, I actually mean the

32:30

1890s. I know, stick with me, I

32:32

promise you it's worth it. Because back

32:34

then a small group of incredibly wealthy

32:36

people, known as the robber barons, controlled

32:38

most of American life and could basically

32:40

get a president to do whatever they

32:43

wanted. The president at the time, William

32:45

McKinley, was a big believer in tariffs

32:47

and wanted to expand US territory. Sound

32:49

familiar? You know why Trump loves McKinley

32:51

so much? Now in New York City

32:54

at the time, mayors were controlled by

32:56

political bosses, corruption was rampant, and quid

32:58

pro quos were the norm, which is

33:00

also starting to sound a little familiar.

33:02

Well, then some changes were made, and

33:04

in the New York City Charter of

33:07

1898, the governor was explicitly given the

33:09

power to remove any sitting mayor who

33:11

had faced criminal charges. That's obviously a

33:13

pretty big power to have. And on

33:15

one occasion, even just the threat of

33:18

using that power, both cleaned up the

33:20

city and actually helped launch a Democrat

33:22

back into the White House. Because back

33:24

in 1932, New York City Mayor Jimmy

33:26

Walker was notorious for his brazen defense

33:28

of the law. He was known to

33:31

award major city contracts to basically anyone

33:33

who paid him or bribed him the

33:35

most. And he quickly became a national

33:37

symbol of political corruption. So the governor

33:39

at the time faced a choice. Remove

33:41

the mayor and risk losing support from

33:44

the party bigwigs who backed Walker or

33:46

show voters weakness and a willingness to

33:48

let corruption run wild. Well, that governor's

33:50

name was Franklin Delano Roosevelt. FDR chose

33:52

to use his power to stand up

33:55

to that corruption while in the middle

33:57

of a heated presidential campaign. He threatened

33:59

to remove Walker, Walker caved to the

34:01

pressure and resigned instead. Now a few

34:03

months later, FDR was in the White

34:05

House. This time around though, the mayor's

34:08

corruption is being enabled by by the

34:10

sitting president, Donald Trump's, federal government. The

34:12

Justice Department is moving to dismiss the

34:14

criminal charges against Derek Adams, as we

34:16

know, on the condition that Adams follows

34:19

Trump's immigration orders. And in a fiery

34:21

speech yesterday, Adams said, in biblical terms,

34:23

no less, that he will stand his

34:25

ground. So

34:37

as Democrats today beg for someone, I

34:39

mean anyone, to show the kind of

34:42

leadership that FDR did, turns out Kathy

34:44

Hochal, the governor of New York, actually

34:46

has kind of an opportunity. She hasn't

34:48

rushed it though, really at all. I

34:51

mean less than a week ago Hochal

34:53

said, quote, I'm not going to go

34:55

there about potentially removing Adams. But the

34:57

pressure has obviously been mounting. New York

35:00

lawmakers have pushed for Hochal to act,

35:02

including Congresswoman Alexandria and seems to be

35:04

moving the needle. Because on Thursday night,

35:06

Hoko got the same question, but she

35:09

had a different answer for my colleague,

35:11

Rachel Maddo. The allegations are extremely concerning

35:13

and serious. Yes. But I cannot as

35:16

the governor of this state have a

35:18

knee-jerk politically motivated reaction, like a lot

35:20

of other people are saying right now,

35:22

I have to do it smart, what's

35:25

right, and I'm consulting with other leaders

35:27

in government at this time. So you're

35:29

saying there's a chance. That's what I

35:31

heard there. I mean if nothing else

35:34

the momentum seems to be building in

35:36

a certain direction because today four top

35:38

officials in New York City resigned over

35:40

the DOJ's efforts to drop the Adams

35:43

case. So this story is still moving

35:45

and it's starting to move faster. Our

35:47

next guess is smack dab in the

35:49

middle of all of this. New York's

35:52

Lieutenant Governor Atonial Delgado has already called

35:54

on Eric Adams to resign and he

35:56

joins me next. walk through, New York

35:59

City Mayor Eric Adams is facing calls

36:01

to resign. As the Justice Department works

36:03

with him to get his corruption charges

36:05

dismissed on the condition that he let

36:08

the Trump administration enforce its immigration policies

36:10

in the city. And the calls are

36:12

now coming from inside the House. The

36:14

New York Times reported today that four

36:17

deputy mayors of New York City serving

36:19

under Adams resigned, citing these swirl of

36:21

issues around the mayor. But the governor

36:23

of New York, Kathy Hokel, has the

36:26

power to end this and remove Adams

36:28

from office. And the question remains, will

36:30

she use it? Antonio Delgado is the

36:32

Lieutenant Governor of New York, elected alongside

36:35

Kathy Hoekle in 2022. He is called

36:37

on Mayor Adams to resign, but the

36:39

Governor's office, in quite a statement, made

36:41

clear he was not speaking for the

36:44

whole administration. It's great to see you.

36:46

Thank you so much for joining me.

36:48

I wanted to start just by, I

36:51

played a little bit of the Mayor's

36:53

comments. It's great to see. I played

36:55

a little bit of the mayor's comments

36:57

from yesterday. I mean, he was fiery.

37:00

He didn't seem like he was sending

37:02

any signs he had plans to resign.

37:04

Do you still think that's a possibility?

37:06

I think the most important piece right

37:09

now is to speak the truth. And

37:11

the truth is, he is compromised. Putting

37:13

aside his innocence or his guilt. What

37:15

we know is that... Trump and this

37:18

administration is doing everything in its power

37:20

to use its authority, the ability to

37:22

basically hold a prosecutorial gun to the

37:24

mayor's head and say, do what we

37:27

ask you to do. Even if what

37:29

we ask you to do, we'll put

37:31

New Yorkers in harm's way. And that's

37:34

something that we simply cannot tolerate. And

37:36

we're seeing more and more calls for

37:38

him to step aside happen. The top

37:40

majority leader in the state senate called

37:43

for his resignation. The number two majority

37:45

leader in the senate called for his

37:47

resignation. You had this speaker of the

37:49

city council called for his resignation. So

37:52

there are growing calls and as you

37:54

alluded to as you mentioned you had

37:56

four deputy bears all of whom were

37:58

brought in when the indictments came down

38:01

to help reorganize and clean house all

38:03

of whom now have stepped aside and

38:05

and said it was time for them

38:07

to go their ways because they've lost

38:10

faith internally on the integrity of the

38:12

administration so there are there's a growing

38:14

swell of support for what is I

38:17

think the right thing to do in

38:19

this moment, which is to make sure

38:21

that we put New Yorkers first, New

38:23

Yorkers who are in the crosshairs of

38:26

an administration with regards to the White

38:28

House that is hell-bent on making incredible

38:30

cuts to Medicaid education, to make sure

38:32

that we cut SNAP. These are all

38:35

things that we as New Yorkers have

38:37

to stand up against, not to mention

38:39

the assault on our immigrant community. No

38:41

question about all of that and and

38:44

he is a version of a hostage

38:46

the mayor is one of the reasons

38:48

I think you just said he was

38:50

compromised given though he seems pretty dug

38:53

in even with all these calls there's

38:55

one way for him to get removed

38:57

and that would be for the governor

38:59

to remove him which she has the

39:02

power to do do you think she

39:04

should do that? Well as I've said

39:06

you know I think it's important for

39:09

in the first instance everybody who has

39:11

the ability to do so should say

39:13

you need to step aside. This is

39:15

a very very important moment right now.

39:18

I could imagine what the mayor might

39:20

be thinking about, but ultimately he has

39:22

to be given a chance to think

39:24

this through and make sure that everybody

39:27

who has the ability to say something

39:29

publicly leveraged the power and the thought

39:31

that we all have to do so

39:33

to give him that space to forward,

39:36

to go forward with the removal process

39:38

was no doubt an extraordinary step. And

39:40

so I think in the first instance

39:42

what you want to be able to

39:45

be able to do. is put as

39:47

much pressure on him as possible to

39:49

recognize that moving forward in this current

39:52

situation is not going to help New

39:54

Yorkers in any way shape or form.

39:56

You know in New York we have

39:58

one in five of our children. living

40:01

in poverty. Half of those children are

40:03

living in extreme poverty. We have folks

40:05

living paycheck to paycheck. People literally around

40:07

corners and food bank lines. We don't

40:10

need to have an administration in the

40:12

White House coming down on us without

40:14

really having leaders on the ground prepared

40:16

to protect them and do everything in

40:19

our powers to not negotiate with individuals

40:21

who are out to get New Yorkers,

40:23

who are already struggling and who are

40:25

already feeling disconnected from their leaders in

40:28

the first place. No question about

40:30

it. And the mayor of New

40:32

York has an important role in

40:34

doing, being a partner and doing

40:36

exactly what you said. I mean,

40:38

you referenced this. Immigration, and New

40:40

York has sanctuary immigration laws on

40:42

the books, and Mayor Adams is

40:44

looking to allow ICE to operate

40:46

on Rikers Island. We've seen that.

40:49

And work with NYPD. Is there

40:51

anything the state is ready to

40:53

do to block ICE? It's not

40:55

legal what he's trying to do.

40:57

Is there anything the state's prepared

40:59

to do to block that? Well, I want to

41:01

be clear. The laws on our books allow for

41:03

cooperation where there's been a

41:06

conviction, right? And I think sometimes when

41:08

we talk about immigration and what

41:10

I think the president and his

41:12

administration have done is dramatize this

41:14

in a way and create this

41:17

narrative that somehow if you have

41:19

committed a crime and you've been convicted

41:21

of a crime, that we don't have

41:23

the ability to cooperate. That's not

41:26

the case. Instead, what he's done is

41:28

turn this whole equation on his head

41:30

and made it seem like, hey, just because

41:32

you're here undocumented, even if you've been here

41:34

for decades, even if you're a dreamer, even

41:37

if you pay your taxes, even if you

41:39

are a positive contribute to society, you

41:41

don't have any business being here. The amount

41:43

of people that I come across across this

41:46

state, I was just at an immigrant rights.

41:48

a group like coming down Staten Island, talking

41:50

to a bunch of individuals who are

41:52

fearful for their lives, children who are waking

41:55

up every single day, worried if they're going

41:57

to wake up without their mother or their father.

41:59

Terrorized. right here in New York, through no

42:01

fault of their own. So let's not get lost

42:03

in the narrowing of this conversation. We

42:06

have hundreds of thousands, hundreds of thousands

42:08

of undocumented immigrants who are in New

42:10

York, who have been here for a

42:12

long time, who are possibly contributing to

42:14

our state in a meaningful and thoughtful

42:17

way. Yes, we can deal with the

42:19

individuals who have been here committing crimes

42:21

and we should. But let's not narrow

42:23

the conversation down to the point where

42:26

it's only about a sliver of the

42:28

population, which is not reflective of the

42:30

vast majority of folks who live in

42:32

this state. Lieutenant Governor Antonio Delgado, thank

42:34

you so much for taking the time. I

42:36

really appreciate you joining me tonight. Coming up

42:39

brand new episodes of our new project, the

42:41

blueprint, are out today. One of my guests

42:43

is my former boss, who knows a whole

42:45

lot about democratic politics, and we're going to

42:47

be right back. Okay, two more episodes of

42:49

our new podcast, The Blueprint, are out today.

42:52

And if you haven't listened yet, this is

42:54

a new space for us to talk about

42:56

what the Democratic Party needs to do in

42:58

this moment. We will still talk a lot

43:00

about Trump here, but this is an opportunity

43:02

to talk about what Democrats need to do to

43:04

win again. Now in these two new

43:06

episodes I talk with Don Lemon

43:08

about how Democrats should navigate the

43:11

evolving media landscape we find ourselves

43:13

in. I also sat down with

43:15

my old boss, Norm Emanuel, who

43:17

has literally never held back. He

43:19

had an interesting take on the

43:21

kind of candidates Democrats should be

43:23

fielding. One of the things I remember

43:26

about working for you is you were

43:28

obsessed with candidate quality? I

43:30

mean, and the kind of

43:32

candidates who could win in

43:34

districts that Democrats didn't always

43:36

win in. All the infamous one

43:38

is, he sure was worried about

43:40

his family, legitimate. And I said,

43:42

you'll figure out, trust me, if you put

43:45

priorities on, to be both a

43:47

father and a congressman, etc. But

43:49

to the core point, which I

43:51

think is important, because we have

43:53

a debate about message, totally legit,

43:56

but we lose sight. that the messenger

43:58

is also a message. You want

44:00

candidates. When you have gerrymandered

44:03

districts, which are supposed

44:06

to put a electoral lock on

44:08

a district, to pick that

44:10

lock, you're going for every

44:12

point you can. And the candidate,

44:14

the messenger, is a message.

44:17

The messenger is the message. My conversations

44:19

with Rahm and Don Lemon are available

44:21

wherever you get your podcast. That does

44:23

it for me tonight. You can catch

44:25

the show every Sunday at 12 p.m.

44:27

and Monday at 8 p.m. on MS

44:29

NBC. And don't forget to follow the

44:31

show on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. For

44:33

now, goodbye from Washington, and we'll see

44:35

you next week. As President Donald Trump

44:37

returns to the White House, follow

44:39

along as his agenda takes shape

44:41

with the new MS NBC newsletter,

44:43

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44:46

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44:48

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44:50

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