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is Wednesday, April

3:00

23rd, 2025. My

3:03

name is Sam Cedar. This is

3:05

the five -time award -winning majority report. We

3:08

are broadcasting live steps

3:10

from the industrially -ravaged Gowanus

3:12

Canal in the heartland of

3:14

America, downtown Brooklyn,

3:16

USA. On

3:19

the program today, Marie

3:21

C. Vinton, former

3:23

staffer at Doge. She

3:27

was a member of the

3:29

US Digital Service Department

3:31

got absorbed into Doge and

3:34

now she's not there

3:36

Also a former advisor

3:38

at the IRS

3:40

and Consumer Protection

3:42

Financial Consumer Financial

3:45

Protection Bureau Meanwhile

3:47

Donald Trump seemingly reverses

3:49

on trying to fire

3:51

the Fed chair And

3:55

simultaneously, Trump hints at reducing

3:57

China tariffs because it's going

3:59

so well. I made my point. And

4:02

speaking of coincidentally,

4:04

Trump's economic approval

4:06

rating drops to

4:09

37%. And speaking

4:11

of dropping, Tesla

4:14

profits crater. But

4:17

mysteriously, its stock rises.

4:20

Huh. As

4:23

Trump stops investigation into

4:25

Russian war crimes in

4:27

Ukraine, U .S. offers

4:29

Ukrainian territory to Russia

4:31

for peace. Health

4:34

and Human Services plans

4:36

to cut national suicide hotlines

4:39

program for LGBTQ youth. Republican

4:42

House is planning a

4:44

rescission vote in weeks

4:46

that may cut substantially

4:48

more from the government.

4:52

RFK Jr. launching

4:54

an autism database. That

4:57

doesn't sound disturbing. And

5:00

looking to reverse CDC

5:02

COVID recommendation of a

5:04

vaccine recommendation for children.

5:08

Congressional Democrats traveled to

5:10

Louisiana to demand release

5:12

of Mahmoud Khalil and

5:14

Rumseh Ozturk. EPA

5:16

laying off environmental

5:18

justice employees And

5:21

veteran affairs employees are

5:23

encouraged to report colleagues

5:26

who appear to be

5:28

anti -Christian. All

5:31

this and more on

5:33

today's majority report. Welcome, ladies

5:35

and gentlemen. Thanks so

5:37

much for joining us. Emma

5:40

Vigeland off today. Matt's

5:42

looking at me like, wait,

5:44

what? The VA anti

5:46

-Christian. What does that mean?

5:50

It was Supreme Court moot court.

5:52

I think it was yesterday. Not

5:56

moot court, oral

5:58

arguments, I should

6:00

say, about the

6:02

don't say gay

6:04

bill that schools

6:06

were trying to

6:08

get rid of

6:11

because, you know,

6:14

some people are gay

6:16

and pretending that

6:18

gay people don't exist

6:20

is problematic and not just

6:22

for gay people but

6:24

for all people because you're

6:26

living in some type

6:28

of like a bizarro world

6:30

and schools are supposed

6:32

to educate but we are

6:34

seeing an increasing push

6:36

from the right we this

6:38

has been ongoing for

6:40

the past several decades where

6:43

religious values trump at

6:46

least in the opinion

6:48

of the Supreme Court

6:50

and in conservatives largely,

6:53

that religious values, Trump,

6:56

civil values, that

6:59

your religion can supersede

7:01

the laws of our society.

7:05

And apparently at the

7:07

VA, if there

7:09

is behavior that, you

7:11

know, Somebody has a

7:13

religious edict and I

7:15

can I should be

7:17

more specific a Christian

7:19

one because I doubt

7:22

that they would be

7:24

telling colleagues to watch

7:26

out for folks who

7:28

are not allowing people

7:30

to Pray towards Mecca,

7:32

right? I was gonna

7:34

say Islam At some

7:36

port during the day,

7:39

so but we may

7:41

get to to that

7:43

story in a bit. Just

7:45

look up section 28 in the

7:47

UK, which was the law

7:49

against promoting homosexuality as they put

7:51

it back in 1988 and

7:53

how that turned out. Yeah. I

7:57

mean, it could very well

7:59

be also if you like, you

8:01

have someone at the VA

8:03

who refused to work with someone

8:05

who's gay because their religious

8:08

values, they don't believe in it.

8:12

We've seen this in the

8:14

context of pharmacies and

8:16

whatnot Meanwhile the We have

8:18

a former member of

8:20

doge on the program today

8:23

She's gonna be talking

8:25

specifically about stuff at the

8:27

IRS But there's gonna

8:29

be a new former member

8:31

of doge quite soon

8:34

and that of course is

8:36

Elon Musk In

8:40

part, it's because he was a

8:42

special advisor to the government and you

8:44

can only be on for 120

8:46

days in that instance. But

8:48

if things were going

8:51

a little bit better for

8:53

Doge and for Elon

8:55

Musk, I suspect he'd stick

8:57

around. According to

9:00

the Washington Post, Musk

9:02

is... ready to

9:04

leave his government role because

9:06

he's tired of what he

9:08

sees as a litany of

9:10

vicious and unethical attacks from

9:12

the left and one of

9:15

those people I guess on

9:17

the left is a treasurer

9:19

Tarek is secretary Scott Basant

9:21

who was mad that Elon

9:23

Musk inserted his preferred candidate

9:26

at the IRS instead of

9:28

a Basant's that didn't last

9:30

very long that guy got

9:32

down booted

9:35

musk is already also uh...

9:38

i guess in a like a

9:40

active fight with i can

9:42

have the three or four other

9:44

cabinet members which is really

9:46

surprising because he seems like a

9:48

very charming guy but you

9:51

can say three or four other

9:53

uh... uh... mothers of his

9:55

children yet and well uh... and

9:57

yesterday there was a uh...

9:59

shareholder call where uh... elon musk

10:03

had to reveal

10:05

that Tesla's

10:08

Net income slid

10:10

71 % in

10:12

the first

10:14

quarter. I

10:19

can tell you that if

10:21

our net income slid 71

10:23

% in the first quarter,

10:25

yours, the only voice you

10:27

would hear would be mine.

10:29

You wouldn't be able to

10:31

see me. and

10:33

you probably wouldn't be able

10:35

to listen live and

10:38

you may actually have to

10:40

come to my apartment

10:42

to hear what i'm saying

10:44

this is the other

10:47

amazing part the uh... tesla

10:49

reported adjusted earnings of

10:51

per share of twenty seven

10:53

cents which missed analyst

10:55

expectations of forty one cents

10:58

now that is a

11:00

twenty five percent miss And

11:03

it's not like these analysts were not

11:05

aware of what was going on. They

11:07

just assumed that it wouldn't be this

11:09

bad. Here's

11:14

the weird part. Tesla

11:16

shares were up more than

11:18

3 % in after hours

11:20

trading on Tuesday after gaining

11:22

4 .6 % ahead of the

11:24

first quarter report. So in

11:26

anticipation of this report, the

11:28

stock goes up 4 .5 points, a

11:30

little more than that. And

11:33

then when all those

11:35

people in anticipation of

11:37

this report hear that

11:39

net income slid 71 %

11:41

and adjusted earnings were

11:43

25 % lower than

11:45

anticipated, they said, I'm

11:47

buying more of that

11:49

stock. Let me tell

11:52

you what I would do if I was the

11:54

world's richest man. Now I'm not, so

11:56

maybe I don't think the proper

11:58

way, but if We

12:01

were gonna do an earnings report

12:03

for the majority report and it was

12:05

to come out and say it's

12:07

dropped by three quarters and We missed

12:09

the analysts expectations by 25 % and

12:11

Major report was a publicly owned

12:13

company I'll tell you what I would

12:15

do if I had billions of

12:17

dollars now I doubt people are this

12:19

smart to figure this out but

12:21

what I would do in the run

12:23

-up to the report is I would

12:25

buy a lot of stock Forcing

12:27

the price up and then afterwards What

12:29

I would do is buy a

12:31

lot of stock and forcing the price

12:33

up. That's

12:36

what I would do if I were

12:38

the richest man. But I'm

12:40

also the type of guy who

12:42

has hired somebody to play video

12:45

games for me so that

12:47

I can get on the leaderboard

12:49

at the local pizza place. That's

12:51

what I used to do when I was a

12:53

kid. I would pay people to play asteroids for

12:56

me at the local pizza place so they could

12:58

put in Sam. I could

13:00

brag to all my friends. Here's

13:03

Elon Musk on

13:05

his shareholder call yesterday

13:07

and still trying

13:09

to maintain, I guess,

13:11

his relationship with

13:13

Trump and being gentle

13:15

about how much

13:17

Donald Trump has effed

13:19

up the whole

13:21

tariff. Situ

13:23

at me. We got Trump

13:25

back and off of the the

13:27

tariffs we got Scott Passant

13:29

going into private meetings going like

13:31

That actually decoupling. I

13:33

think this is probably unsustainable incidentally.

13:35

He also went into a

13:38

room full of traders The day

13:40

before it was announced that

13:42

there was a possibility that things

13:44

were gonna get rolled back

13:46

and sort of implied that things

13:48

were gonna get rolled back

13:50

and that I mean nice

13:52

little heads up nice to

13:54

have a heads up here's Elon

13:56

Musk I just want to

13:58

emphasize that the tariff decision is

14:01

entirely up to the president

14:03

the United States I will weigh

14:05

in with my advice with

14:07

the president which he will listen

14:09

to my advice but then

14:11

it's up to him of course

14:13

to make his decision I

14:15

love how he couldn't bring himself

14:17

to say he may not

14:19

listen to me He'll

14:22

listen to my advice My disregard it. Yeah,

14:24

you can't articulate that I had that same

14:27

argument to be honest with you with my

14:29

son My son said you don't listen to

14:31

me and I go I listen to you,

14:33

but I'm not gonna do what you say

14:35

Look, I'll give you a little car show

14:37

in the front of the White House But

14:39

I don't know if I'm gonna go after

14:41

but my son somehow did not seem so

14:44

excited that he had in that he would

14:46

just capture my attention He

14:48

wasn't bragging about it to his friends. My

14:50

dad listens to me, and then he does

14:52

something different, but he doesn't do that. That's

14:54

weird. It's my advice, but then

14:56

it's up to him, of course, to make

14:58

his decision. I've

15:01

been on the right court many

15:03

times saying that I believe lower

15:05

tariffs are generally a good idea

15:07

for prosperity, but this decision

15:09

is finally up to the elected

15:11

representative of the people being the president

15:13

the United States. You

15:17

know, I'll continue to

15:19

advocate for lower tariffs rather

15:21

than higher tariffs, but

15:23

that's all I can do.

15:26

There you go. Elon

15:31

Musk making a beeline out. In

15:34

a moment, we're going to

15:36

be talking to receive the

15:38

eventant former staffer at Doge

15:40

to talk about how they

15:42

have, and let's be clear.

15:46

Doge simply aligned with Republican

15:48

principles Doge was just

15:50

a mechanism to do exactly

15:52

what project 2025 Wanted

15:54

to do and they're continuing

15:56

on with the program.

15:58

They're just moving to phase

16:01

two and Going through

16:03

it through the channels that

16:05

they had already anticipated

16:07

having to go through it

16:09

and Their destruction of

16:11

the IRS has been a

16:13

long time desired or

16:15

desire, I should say,

16:17

of the right. We'll

16:20

be talking to her in just

16:22

a moment, but first, according

16:24

to the CDC or what's left

16:26

of that, fewer

16:29

men than women meet the minimum

16:31

daily intake recommendations for fruits and

16:33

vegetables. I

16:35

will cop to that probably

16:37

as well. Matt, you don't have

16:39

to say a word. Soda

16:43

is not a vegetable. Men

16:46

are more likely to overvalue exercise

16:48

and undervalue nutrition. That is exactly

16:51

I would say. It's a whole

16:53

point of exercise. Enter

16:55

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17:00

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17:05

told the story many times, but

17:07

for years I would walk out of

17:09

my annual physical with my doctor

17:11

and uh... with him saying calling me

17:14

up to you know uh... good

17:16

couple days later when i get my

17:18

blood working and him saying uh...

17:20

you're low in vitamin d and i

17:22

know i know uh... i every

17:24

year i bought a guy as soon

17:26

as i leave the office i

17:28

go by uh... package of vitamin d

17:30

i finish it and then it's

17:33

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17:37

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17:39

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not only that,

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what also used to happen to me

17:50

was I would see my vitamins, I would

17:52

say, I gotta take my vitamins. And

17:54

then I'd say like, oh, I haven't eaten, I've

17:56

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17:58

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18:00

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21:39

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21:41

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21:44

this Mother's Day, you can

21:46

call, you can go visit.

21:48

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21:50

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in her good graces all

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22:01

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22:03

wasn't for Mother's Day,

22:06

but went to visit my

22:08

girlfriend's family over break

22:10

and brought an aura frame

22:12

for them. I thought

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they would have one. they've

22:17

got uh... her folks have bunch

22:19

of kids and i was convinced

22:21

that they would have something like

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this within like literally an hour

22:25

at five hundred photos that was

22:27

crawling through it and it was

22:29

mesmerizing everybody i was like i

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can't believe this i am in

22:33

a gram was obsessed with it

22:35

the it's it's great to watch

22:38

uh... or frames was named the

22:40

best digital photo frame by wire

22:42

cutter was featured in uh... four

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you need to call you mom you can

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22:52

from that trip you're telling her all about

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right from your phone it could not be

22:57

easier first of all i watched uh... uh... this

22:59

thing get set up was set up and

23:01

very quickly in a household i can tell

23:03

you where i had to help set up

23:05

the tv's So

23:07

I didn't even have to engage

23:09

in the setting up of the order

23:12

thing the app is super easy

23:14

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and conditions apply alright quick

23:55

break When we

23:57

come back, we're going to

23:59

be talking to Marisi

24:01

Vinton, former DOGE member. member.

25:29

member. Tracy

25:41

Vinton, Tracy

25:43

member. member.

26:09

We are back. Sam Cedar

26:11

on the Major Report. Emma

26:13

Vigelin is off today. Joining

26:16

me now, Marisi Vinton, former

26:18

staffer at the U .S. Digital

26:20

Service Department, which became absorbed

26:22

by Doge about, I guess,

26:24

three or four months ago,

26:26

and also a former advisor

26:28

at the IRS and was

26:30

involved in the launching of

26:32

the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau

26:34

over a decade ago now.

26:36

Marisi, thanks so much for

26:38

joining us. Thanks for having

26:40

me. Let's

26:43

start with Doge.

26:46

You were working at

26:48

the U .S. Digital Service

26:51

Department. Just

26:53

give us a sense of what

26:55

the U .S. Digital Service Department

26:57

did and then what happened when

26:59

Donald Trump won. Absolutely. So

27:01

USDS before the inauguration was

27:03

full of really mission driven

27:05

people, engineers and product managers

27:07

and data scientists and designers

27:09

who really wanted to simplify

27:11

the experiences that people have

27:13

with their government, their interactions.

27:16

I really wanted to put users first,

27:19

so making sure that if we were

27:21

designing a form or a new service,

27:23

that it was something that people understood

27:25

how to use because then they wouldn't

27:27

need to follow up with you, which

27:29

is how we defined efficiency. It

27:32

was a really great group of

27:34

mission -driven people. Give

27:36

me just one broad sense of

27:38

the challenge involved in that, because

27:40

I think for some people it

27:42

sounds like an easy thing to

27:45

do, but there's obviously sort of

27:47

All of these legacy systems that

27:49

have been developed, and

27:51

we've talked about this

27:53

in the context of

27:55

the government payment system

27:58

and the systems that

28:00

attract social security, the

28:03

primary value you want

28:05

in systems like that

28:07

is reliability and consistency.

28:10

And sometimes that comes at the

28:12

expense of other things, and

28:14

it also makes it harder to

28:17

sort of update. I mean,

28:19

you know, if we... I can

28:21

shut down a majority report,

28:23

radio.com, you know, overnight, if I

28:25

want to redo the website.

28:27

But there's a lot of government

28:29

services you can't do that

28:31

with. That's

28:33

spot on. It's a real responsibility

28:35

to do this work in

28:37

a way to not stop or

28:39

to not have bugs. I'll

28:41

actually share the story of DirectFile.

28:43

It was a free tax

28:45

filing service that we did at

28:47

the IRS. It

28:49

was hugely successful, hugely loved

28:51

by its users. Let

28:54

me just jump in here and

28:56

just remind people, it was piloted

28:58

in 2023 and I think about

29:00

10 states. And

29:02

then it did

29:05

well enough that it

29:07

was released for

29:09

everybody. And this was going to

29:11

be the first filing year where it was

29:13

released to everybody, wasn't it? It was still

29:15

limited to 25 states. So

29:18

what we wanted to do is

29:20

work with states that had the capacity

29:22

with RITD. So it was a

29:24

semi -complicated rollout to states. But it

29:26

was available in 25 states this year

29:28

up from last year. Yes,

29:30

and it was really loved by users.

29:33

I wanted to use that as

29:35

an example, because it kind of

29:37

demonstrates how you can do this

29:39

really hard work. Taxes are

29:41

not easy, as we probably can all

29:43

relate to. And we did

29:45

it in a way where we worked

29:47

with users from day one. So every

29:49

word, every screen on the direct file

29:51

was put in front of people to

29:53

make sure it made sense. But

29:56

then getting to the systems and

29:58

the complexity, we also had to do

30:00

that within the IRS environment. We

30:02

had to make sure that when

30:04

we launched, not only was it

30:06

going to be a launch that

30:08

worked for our users? And there

30:10

wasn't a massive bug. But

30:12

also that the systems that the

30:15

IRS has weren't going to be greatly

30:17

impacted by that launch. And so

30:19

it's always a trade -off. And

30:21

what we found is that you always

30:23

had to have a hint of a plan

30:25

A and a plan B and sometimes

30:27

a plan D to get over the line.

30:29

But it was really important that we

30:32

made sure that both taxpayers were getting their

30:35

were able to file their taxes, and

30:37

also that the IRS systems could handle that

30:39

additional load. And that is what it's

30:41

like in government, in all government IT teams.

30:44

Tell us a little more specifically about that product,

30:46

because I don't think people realize how, I

30:48

mean, it's both a

30:50

major achievement in terms of

30:52

being able to roll this thing

30:55

out in two years to

30:57

get to almost half the population,

30:59

make it available to half

31:01

the population that would be

31:03

interested in it. This is

31:06

if your taxes are relatively

31:08

straightforward, which they are for

31:10

the vast majority of people.

31:14

And it's free, so you don't

31:16

have to go to, you don't have to use

31:18

TurboTax, you don't have to go to H &R

31:20

Block, you don't have to go to all that. So

31:23

the technical achievement was big

31:25

as a policy thing. It's huge

31:27

and the politics behind it

31:29

are also very difficult because there's

31:32

a reason why We're the

31:34

only government I think like you

31:36

know sort of industrialized nation

31:38

That doesn't already have something like

31:40

this because there was money

31:42

to interest to prevent this from

31:44

actually ever happening Yeah, it's

31:46

all true. So I think part

31:49

of the story for me

31:51

personally I moved to move back

31:53

to DC from London and

31:55

I was very, very surprised that

31:57

this didn't exist yet, that

31:59

people couldn't file their taxes for

32:01

free directly with the IRS.

32:04

And when I think about the

32:06

only things the government does,

32:08

that's one of the core things

32:10

it must do. And

32:12

so that was kind of my perspective

32:14

and the attitude I took to

32:16

it. But we got, you know, we

32:19

got the idea as a policy

32:21

concept over the line. And then we

32:23

went out to build the product.

32:25

There were a couple of things that

32:27

we were really, you know, that

32:29

were really important to us in addition

32:32

to that great user experience and

32:34

making sure that people with all different

32:36

accessibility needs could use it. We

32:38

also wanted to build a team in

32:40

-house. We wanted the government, we wanted

32:42

the IRS to have a great

32:44

product team of individuals from, you know,

32:47

from the private sector that really

32:49

threw their attention, their love and their

32:51

focus on it year after year.

32:53

feature after feature, we did over 40

32:55

updates to the product, I'm

32:58

sorry, over a thousand updates to

33:00

the product during filing season and

33:02

fixing bugs and making that user

33:04

experience even better. Also increasing the

33:06

accuracy, you know, when we would

33:08

see different rejected rates come or

33:10

reasons come through from tax return,

33:12

we wanted to understand, can we

33:14

simplify the language to increase that

33:16

uh that accepted rate even more

33:18

and so it's it's really great

33:20

to see what it's like when

33:23

you actually have that capacity in

33:25

house and we really wanted to

33:27

to take that you know through

33:29

the wider IRS as far as

33:31

their overall modernization effort. Let's

33:33

um I want to get to

33:36

sort of like um you set up

33:38

almost like the uh the predicate

33:40

for like a horror movie because um

33:42

this is the uh the you

33:44

know you've set the the created

33:47

the image of a simplified

33:49

tax system. For years, we

33:51

would hear taxes should be

33:53

something you could fill out

33:55

on an index card, and

33:57

then of course, it's never

33:59

going be that simple, but

34:02

this was about as close

34:04

to that notion that you

34:06

could get, and then doge

34:08

happened. What

34:13

was it let's just start with

34:15

like you're working for the US

34:17

digital services and then you're going

34:19

over and helping the IRS Do

34:21

this I mean the digital services.

34:23

That's basically what you did across

34:26

the thing. What happened when doge?

34:28

took over and then what happened

34:30

to at the IRS, you know

34:32

from you at least from that

34:34

technical standpoint After doge took over

34:36

yeah, I can I can talk

34:38

about both experiences So the US

34:41

digital service the day

34:43

after the inauguration, so the first day of

34:45

the administration. All 162

34:47

USDS employees were brought in

34:49

for 15 -minute interviews. So

34:51

we were kind of at first

34:53

trial run of what it's like to

34:56

interview 162 people in a day. And

34:58

the people, you know, we were told

35:00

these are new teammates that are excited to

35:02

meet us. And what we were met

35:04

with was people who would only provide their

35:06

first names. If you'd ask

35:08

a follow -up question. like, what brings

35:11

you to government? You were told, which was this

35:13

actually happened not to me, but to my

35:15

co -worker. They were told, this

35:17

is a one -way conversation only. I

35:19

mean, that's not a very threatening

35:21

question. What makes you excited to be

35:23

here? So that was

35:25

that kind of that first set of

35:27

interactions really set the tone for this

35:29

new. What kind of questions did they

35:31

ask you? Oh, they

35:33

were. Who is your favorite

35:35

person at the US Digital Service? Who's

35:38

your favorite teammate? What makes you

35:40

exceptional? What's your favorite product that you've

35:42

worked on in government? It

35:44

was so quick, and also

35:46

the questions didn't, to me, really

35:48

seem to be with people

35:50

who understood what they were getting

35:52

into. And government is, as

35:54

you said, complex. There's a lot

35:57

of systems. There's things to

35:59

know. And asking me who my

36:01

favorite teammate is doesn't really

36:03

I think talked to the scale

36:05

of the complexity of what

36:07

we were trying to do and,

36:09

you know, what we do

36:11

every day. What's your sense that

36:13

they were looking for social

36:15

networks so that in the event

36:17

they, they, I mean, when

36:19

I hear those questions is almost

36:21

like the almost like a

36:23

bizarro world union organizer. Because

36:26

sussing out the social

36:28

networks there, you know, you

36:30

know, who are the people

36:32

that I can, where are the, you know,

36:35

once I establish some type of marker,

36:37

maybe it doesn't come from you. But if

36:39

I know that your friends with, you

36:41

know, Bill and Mary,

36:43

and I find out from

36:45

Mary that she likes NPR

36:47

or something, then I know

36:49

that Bill and you may

36:51

be a problem. That's

36:54

a really great question and a

36:56

really great theory. I'd never really

36:58

thought about or we discussed We

37:00

we didn't really know what the

37:02

purpose was until about it's all

37:05

Valentine's Day so on Valentine's evening

37:07

at 8 o 'clock p .m. When

37:09

a lot of people rocks dinner

37:11

I 43 of my teammates were

37:13

fired and without really any reason

37:15

or you know, they weren't told

37:18

When you come to government you

37:20

expect a certain set of you

37:22

know policies, it might be, as

37:24

they say, a bit bureaucratic at

37:26

times. But that's what

37:28

you get. And what we

37:31

did not expect was this

37:33

kind of weird interview followed

37:35

by a firing with no

37:37

rationale, no process. People

37:39

are immediately cut off from systems.

37:41

And that's how they found out on

37:43

Valentine's Day. So I was at

37:45

dinner and My phone was

37:48

off, and my husband was joking around, like, let's

37:50

take a picture. It's a cool restaurant. And

37:52

I turned my phone, and the notifications were just

37:54

going wild. And I had

37:56

to ask my friends, do you still

37:58

see my name in the system? Because

38:00

I didn't have my work phone. So

38:02

it was this really set of chaotic

38:05

experiences. But I guess that just sets

38:07

the tone for everything else that's gone

38:09

on. In a way, we're just a

38:11

small microcosm of the larger scene. Okay,

38:14

and so once that happens,

38:16

then what happens at the

38:18

IRS? Because we've seen this

38:20

across many, many agencies. The

38:23

one thing about the assault

38:25

on the IRS in particular,

38:28

it seems to me, is

38:30

that if your argument is

38:32

government efficiency, There

38:34

is no other agency where

38:36

the return on investment is

38:39

higher than the IRS and

38:41

so every person That you

38:43

cut every dollar that you

38:45

save actually ends up costing

38:47

you more money and this

38:50

is well established and so

38:52

Tell us what your experience

38:54

was in terms of the

38:56

way that doge did they

38:58

specifically, were you as part

39:01

of Doge brought in to

39:03

sort of like efficient size

39:05

or, you know, I would

39:07

say undermine the IRS? That's

39:11

a great question. And

39:13

actually, it was pretty firewalled

39:15

between what is now

39:17

called LegacyUSDS and the new

39:19

Doge team. There

39:21

weren't any interactions across

39:23

like, so I view There's

39:25

the USDS doge and then there's

39:27

like roaming doge. So people that

39:29

are kind of everywhere else and

39:31

ransacking government agencies. There was

39:33

not a lot of interaction or

39:35

facilitation between the two doges outside of

39:37

a few select individuals who sat

39:40

across the top. So no,

39:42

I was already at the IRS through my

39:44

work with direct file and then the

39:46

commissioner and the wider leadership team. So I

39:48

was there kind of witnessing it. as

39:50

a bystander myself, witnessing kind of what happened.

39:53

And we had been told, I'm sorry,

39:55

Secretary Besant had said publicly that

39:57

Doge wasn't going to be inside

39:59

IRS until after the filing season,

40:02

so after April 15th. And so

40:04

kind of what happened to the

40:06

IRS was a bit delayed from

40:08

other agencies, so people didn't arrive

40:10

until actually the day before Valentine's

40:12

Day, so until mid -February. Immediately

40:16

understand you're sent as a member

40:18

of the US digital services You're

40:20

basically placed inside of the IRS

40:22

and they're almost on Maybe some

40:24

I permanent loan essentially right from

40:26

agency to agency and this happens

40:28

all the time in the government

40:30

It seems to me where you

40:32

not you brought is not not

40:34

so much as a liaison, but

40:36

like as if the u .s

40:38

digital services is a company and

40:40

you're you know a consultant in -house

40:42

consultant and you're brought in there

40:44

to operate these things and Theoretically

40:46

three or four years later you

40:48

could move on or something like

40:50

that That's a great way to

40:52

describe it and that's and that

40:54

is exactly it so you can

40:56

imagine us ds was born out

40:58

of the healthcare doc of collapse

41:00

so people sent in to hhs

41:02

to help Fix it and build

41:04

it and so that you know

41:06

that model is we go over

41:08

to agencies and we build try

41:10

to build trusting collaborative relationships with

41:12

our stakeholders. That is actually the

41:14

core of how I approached my

41:16

work, was to gain a lot

41:18

of trust with the people that

41:20

We're going to be responsible for

41:22

helping make direct file success. I

41:25

wasn't there to fire them. I

41:27

wasn't there to interrogate them or to

41:29

question the validity of their work.

41:31

I was there to actually build partnerships

41:33

and to really focus on building

41:36

a great product for people. That's all

41:38

any of us wanted to do.

41:40

And that was how USDS used to

41:42

work. And the new team that

41:44

came in, the way I try to think about

41:46

it, or I guess the patterns that I've

41:48

seen, not just with the IRS, but other agencies,

41:51

is that first they want access

41:53

to the personnel systems and they

41:55

want access to the personnel systems

41:58

to fire people and they want

42:00

access to the procurement systems to

42:02

cut contracts that they deem that

42:04

they deem not useful and then

42:06

they want access to data and

42:08

I'm going to guess that's you

42:10

know to make benefit determinations and

42:13

eligibility and things like that. You

42:15

know, USDS, legacy USDS, when

42:18

we asked for access to

42:20

different systems, it was to

42:22

make product improvements to direct

42:24

file. It was to help

42:26

databases run more efficiently to query

42:28

things faster. It was a completely

42:30

different set of asks that, you

42:32

know, were just night and day. So

42:35

that's what happened when they came over to the IRS. How

42:37

much of the When they

42:40

would do layoffs or they would

42:42

do Get rid of like,

42:44

you know, they get a hold

42:46

of the procurement and they

42:48

would cut off contracts How much

42:50

of that was also so

42:52

that none of these entities would

42:55

constrain what they were going

42:57

to do on the data side

42:59

Hmm, I you know, I

43:01

think My observations was two

43:03

separate efforts, almost. We had a

43:05

few individuals from Doge at the

43:07

IRS, and I viewed

43:09

it almost as two separate things.

43:11

One person was really focusing

43:13

on the modernization and the IT

43:15

side, so really thinking through

43:17

the different contracts. But the thing

43:19

is that when you're looking

43:21

at these line items, these vendor

43:23

contracts, which is how they

43:25

approach their work is let's look

43:27

at Let's look at the

43:29

projects and the vendors. You're

43:32

actually, you're not just cutting a

43:34

contract. You're typically cutting a

43:36

body of work and a body of

43:38

work that was delivering things to

43:40

people. It might not be that I

43:42

don't really get, I didn't get

43:44

the sense that that was understood that

43:46

those, they're not just a cost

43:48

line item. There's also a benefit to

43:50

taxpayers. That's how I view

43:53

they approach doge or I'm sorry,

43:55

approach direct file. And so there's

43:57

this kind of wider understanding that

43:59

seem to be missing in terms

44:01

of how they are approaching their

44:03

work. And same

44:05

kind of on the personnel side, it

44:07

just seemed to be without a lot

44:09

of understanding of a strategic outcome. I

44:12

mean, it's understandable in

44:14

the sense that they

44:16

would not have a

44:18

concept of a government

44:21

that is not looking

44:23

to generate a profit,

44:25

but to provide a

44:27

service. and that the

44:29

service, there's the

44:31

price of the service and there's

44:33

the cost associated, I guess,

44:35

with the service, right? And

44:38

that someone's gonna bear

44:40

that cost and it's

44:42

either gonna be the

44:44

citizen or by going

44:46

to TurboTax or going

44:48

to H &R Block

44:50

or the society. You

44:52

know in like a

44:54

through government So what

44:57

happens so what did

44:59

they do at the

45:01

IRS? I mean specifically

45:03

like what did they

45:05

cut that? because again

45:07

every dollar spent at

45:09

the IRS Essentially returns

45:11

six or seven is

45:13

my understanding and and

45:15

there's probably There's probably

45:18

a point where you

45:20

cut it where I

45:22

would imagine that the The

45:25

the it costs even more

45:27

than you then then then six

45:29

dollars lost for every dollar

45:32

cut Because you hit a threshold

45:34

where it's like we can't

45:36

go after any of like the

45:38

big Wells because we just

45:40

don't have the resources to go

45:42

after somebody who has an

45:44

army of Accountants so it sort

45:46

of drops off a cliff

45:48

at one point So answer the

45:51

question in a few parts

45:53

when I joined the IRS as

45:55

a detailing loan from the

45:57

USDS in 2022, all

45:59

people, all of my IRS colleagues

46:01

talked about was how little

46:03

capacity they had or ability they

46:05

had to answer the phones.

46:08

Only 12 % of phone calls

46:10

were answered. And there were these

46:12

front page that year. There

46:14

were these front page stories in

46:16

national news about with photos

46:18

of paper backlog so people's tax

46:20

returns at processing centers in

46:22

the Midwest and In the within

46:24

place reduction act there was

46:26

a lot of hiring a lot

46:28

of new technology investment that

46:31

went to reduce that back paper

46:33

backlog and to increase the

46:35

ability for the IRS to answer

46:37

calls and we got it

46:39

up to 88 % the next

46:41

year which is her like heroic

46:43

that that even was possible

46:45

so When you ask what they're

46:47

cutting, they're cutting that capacity. I

46:50

really worry about what it's going to look like

46:52

next year during filing season, what the

46:54

wait times are going to be. This

46:56

year, a lot of the filing season

46:58

efforts were kind of held off from the

47:00

national probationary firings, but I know that

47:02

there are rifts coming now that filing season

47:04

is over. And

47:07

so that's, I'm sorry. I'm sorry,

47:09

reduction in force. So that is

47:11

the process by which people are

47:13

being fired or placed on an

47:15

administrative leave. So not not working

47:17

laid off. So I worry about

47:19

next next filing season. That's on

47:21

the taxpayer side on and the

47:23

call center side when you get

47:25

to the higher audits. Yeah, go

47:27

ahead. Yeah, I just before we

47:29

get to the audits, I just

47:31

also want to make it clear

47:33

that when the response

47:35

time, when the backlog increases, when

47:37

the phone calls don't go answered,

47:40

that is a cost

47:42

borne by the

47:44

citizen. And to be

47:46

clear, it's a cost

47:48

borne by the,

47:50

I don't know. The

47:52

people are probably

47:55

in the top 75

47:57

percentile of earnings.

47:59

Above that, they have

48:01

accountants who are waiting on the

48:03

phone. They have a H &R block

48:05

that's waiting on the phone, or

48:07

they're not having to do it.

48:10

The cost associated

48:13

to wealthier

48:15

people is less.

48:19

doesn't inhibit their productivity. They

48:21

don't have to take time off from work. They don't have

48:23

to use their day off or whatever it is. That's

48:26

exactly right. I remember

48:28

I was at a shop

48:30

in Pennsylvania and a woman

48:33

said, she

48:35

didn't know where I worked. She was just

48:37

talking to her friend and said she'd

48:39

been on the phone on hold for seven

48:41

hours the previous day. And she had

48:43

to finally hang up. So that's an example

48:45

of what it was like. And there

48:47

were plans to have better technology to make

48:50

it so that it was less reliant

48:52

on so many call center agents. There are

48:54

ways to make it all more efficient.

48:56

And we were all going in that direction.

48:59

But unfortunately, never got there.

49:02

And that capacity in that team has

49:04

been cut on the compliance side. effectively

49:08

what the Inflation Reaction Act did

49:10

was to kind of rebuild a

49:12

whole bunch of the capacity to

49:14

go after and to explore those

49:16

larger, more complex cases. Obviously, it

49:19

did happen, but not at the

49:21

scale and the pace of which,

49:23

you know, these large corporations are

49:25

hiding out what the wealth individuals

49:27

were, were growing. And

49:29

those were So

49:31

in there were probationary firings in

49:33

February Roughly 7 ,000 people were

49:36

let go probationary probationary means they

49:38

they were new right so new

49:40

talent Hired in the last two

49:42

years new talent or promoted talent.

49:44

Yes Yes, so you're you're like,

49:46

you know, you're brand new excited

49:49

teammates and also the ones that

49:51

had achieved a lot of really

49:53

great work Within the IRS the

49:55

teams that do that auditing It

49:57

was 90 there are teams that

50:00

were impacted so the 7 000

50:02

people roughly 6700 Were fired uh

50:04

during the probationary firings and I

50:06

expect that ratio to continue as

50:08

they go through more layoffs So

50:10

it's just I don't know what

50:13

next season is going to look

50:15

like in terms of you know

50:17

the call center but also In

50:19

the iris's ability to explore those

50:21

large cases and and um I

50:23

just want to make it clear

50:26

too the biden administration when they

50:28

hired These new essentially

50:30

compliance officers people are just

50:32

gonna audit and make sure

50:34

that you know wealthy people

50:36

are paying the taxes that

50:38

they they need and and

50:40

you can see from you

50:42

can see a graph from

50:44

the funding of IRS and

50:46

Who and and the relative?

50:49

Amounts of audits that were

50:52

performed based on high earners

50:54

and in mid to low

50:56

earners change As the budget

50:58

for the IRS shrinks, the

51:01

percentage of high earner audits

51:03

take place drops because it's

51:05

just much more work intensive

51:07

and you don't have those

51:09

resources. You go for the

51:12

low hanging fruit, which is

51:14

someone who doesn't necessarily have

51:16

a lawyer, doesn't have an

51:18

accountant. These

51:21

people are brought on During

51:23

the by administration and with a

51:25

vowed that people under who

51:27

earn under $400 ,000 will not

51:30

be subject to more audits That

51:32

number is not gonna change

51:34

the only number that's gonna rise

51:36

are people who are making

51:38

over $400 ,000 I think it

51:40

was yeah, and So those are

51:42

the people who are cut

51:44

because other people brought on and

51:46

it's it's a field day

51:49

now I would imagine for I

51:51

mean, if I'm an accountant and

51:54

I'm advising someone of that type

51:56

of income, I'm like, maybe a

51:58

year ago, I would have said,

52:00

don't take this deduction or whatever

52:02

it is. But today, yeah.

52:06

I mean, that's basically the dynamic. Anecdotally,

52:09

that dynamic is playing

52:11

out across, you know,

52:13

friends. And also, we,

52:17

so direct file had a, a customer

52:19

support team. It was all live

52:21

chat and people were consistently asking that,

52:23

like, is the IRS going to

52:25

be here by the end of April?

52:27

Maybe I can just not pay

52:30

my taxes. People are volunteering those questions.

52:33

And I think, yeah, so I

52:35

think that that's not a dynamic

52:37

that's playing out, not just among

52:39

people who think that they can

52:41

kind of find an extra loophole,

52:43

but also there's a there's a

52:45

real kind of shaking in the

52:47

trust in the system the trust

52:49

that you know direct valor the

52:51

IRS are going to be there

52:54

for people that that was echoed

52:56

all throughout violence season unfortunately and

52:58

so what happens to direct file

53:00

going forward i mean it was

53:02

it's sort of like um year

53:04

one of its sort of i

53:06

guess um non probationary period um

53:08

and It was expanding. Does it

53:10

expand now? Does it shut down? Is

53:13

it functioning? I mean, what happens? So

53:16

Doge has indicated that they want to shut

53:18

direct file down. And

53:20

that has just been devastating news.

53:22

It was reported by the AP last

53:24

week that that is their intent. They've

53:27

not confirmed that. But it

53:29

was definitely where the conversation was

53:31

going when I was still

53:33

inside, actually, frankly. And

53:35

unfortunately, that continued. Again, There

53:39

didn't seem to be a lot of logic

53:41

behind a direct file is a startup. It

53:43

is a startup within government. We

53:45

thought that there would be some

53:47

interest there. Maybe there was a

53:50

Venn diagram of efficient products that

53:52

people love, interest in that, and

53:54

there wasn't at all, apparently. it

53:58

takes a lot of trust with states,

54:00

a lot of relationship building with states, and

54:02

there had been no conversations with states

54:04

as well. So, unfortunately, it looks like it's

54:06

going to be another line item that

54:08

they've just decided to cut. And the direct

54:10

file team, you know, I'm not sure

54:13

what their future is. They don't know what

54:15

their future is. And, you know, it's

54:17

just, it's really just devastating for not just

54:19

taxpayers, you know, I

54:21

think it's also devastating for the

54:23

IRS itself. That team was so talented,

54:25

is so talented. Do

54:28

you have a sense of how

54:30

it worked this filing season? Oh,

54:33

yeah Okay, so the net

54:35

promoter score is a it's

54:37

a very common private sector

54:39

kind of promoter or score

54:41

index that says how much

54:43

people like your product or

54:46

not So last year direct

54:48

files was plus 74 Just

54:50

as a it's astronomically high

54:52

apples is 72 this year

54:54

it was 84 plus

54:57

84. So somehow

54:59

the net promoter score, which was

55:01

already inordinately high, got even

55:03

higher. Direct file users, it

55:06

increased their trust in the

55:08

IRS by 86%. So you can

55:10

actually increase trust in government

55:12

when you deliver really great things

55:14

that they love. So

55:16

it went really well this year. There were

55:18

no bugs. Everyone that used it

55:20

loved it. Some of the feedback that people

55:23

gave. That's amazing to me. That

55:25

is amazing to me. In the best

55:27

of times that you would have a

55:29

product rollout that was so effective, but

55:32

I would imagine that everybody

55:34

associated with that was preoccupied to

55:36

some degree with the idea

55:38

of like, is this going to

55:40

exist tomorrow? Do I have a

55:42

job tomorrow? Am I at 8 PM? Am

55:44

I going to get a notice that I'm fired? And

55:47

yet the thing was that

55:49

successful. You're

55:51

absolutely right. That's what it was like

55:53

for that team all filing season

55:55

and people were openly speculating Elon Musk

55:57

had tweeted a confusing tweet in

55:59

February that led some people to believe

56:01

that direct foul had been shut

56:04

down. It hadn't been shut down. It

56:06

was doing great. And

56:08

so all throughout filing season, you know,

56:10

the team just had to focus

56:12

on delivering more features. They rolled out

56:14

So an internet meme had always

56:16

been why doesn't the iris just tell

56:18

me what how much i o

56:20

instead they ask me i get it

56:22

wrong and they throw me in

56:24

jail and the direct files team started

56:27

to input what they knew what

56:29

the iris knew about you into. the

56:31

into the tax return it started

56:33

to do that pre -population and people

56:35

loved it and it worked you know

56:37

the IRS was using that as

56:40

a use case for its modernization efforts

56:42

and so it's just it is

56:44

just really uh that happened during filing

56:46

season so it's just really a

56:48

devastating um devastating situation for the team

56:50

and for taxpayers one more question

56:52

on that specific uh part before i

56:54

i hear you know when you

56:56

left and why and a little bit

56:58

more of that um with

57:01

the pre -population of

57:03

information into a

57:05

taxpayer's profile. If

57:08

something like that

57:10

grows, right? I mean, like,

57:12

you know, in a fantasy world where

57:14

Elon Musk does not exist, where Donald

57:16

Trump and the Republican administration does not

57:18

exist, and Republicans' desire to

57:20

cut the IRS does not exist. As

57:23

it moves forward and

57:25

grows, you know, that pre

57:27

-population of the profiles. The

57:30

ability to provide

57:32

people, let's say, direct

57:34

payments in a

57:36

pandemic situation or the

57:38

child tax credits,

57:41

that becomes incredibly like

57:43

almost like a

57:45

Venmo subscription. It would

57:47

have made everything

57:50

much easier because once

57:52

it's pre -populated and

57:54

these profiles exist, The

57:57

idea of Treasury using that

57:59

information as a way of

58:01

sending money to citizens becomes

58:03

much more viable, doesn't it?

58:06

Absolutely. You're spot on. And

58:08

so much of actually the direct about

58:10

team was born out of the child tax

58:12

credit expansion era. And we

58:14

saw the need for a free tax

58:16

filing product because we needed to

58:18

reach out to people and find people

58:20

that had never filed their taxes

58:22

before and were eligible for the CTC

58:24

for the first time. And

58:26

then also, for exactly as

58:29

you're pointing out, the ability

58:31

to quickly and rapidly deliver a

58:33

benefit through the stimulus checks

58:35

had that been something that was

58:37

more automated, it would have

58:39

made... It would have

58:41

made taxpayers life significantly more simpler, more

58:43

straightforward, and government. It would have been a

58:45

lot more efficient. Government and, frankly, the

58:47

economy, because the difference between waiting a month

58:50

for a check versus having that money

58:52

in your bank account that day, you're going

58:54

to see the impact of that much

58:56

quicker. Exactly. Okay,

58:58

so when did you leave Doge?

59:00

Why did you leave Doge?

59:02

I left on March 11th, and

59:04

I had remained around for

59:06

a while. I was trying to

59:08

make the case for direct

59:10

file. You had a large team

59:12

at USDS that was supporting

59:14

direct file as well as the

59:16

IRS team. And as it

59:18

became more and more clear that there was not really

59:20

an open, nobody was really listening

59:22

to the arguments, I decided it was my

59:24

time to leave. You know, people, it was really

59:27

difficult to do work. People

59:29

were fighting across the IRS and

59:31

across the federal government. People were

59:33

fighting both to do their jobs

59:35

and for their jobs. And

59:37

it just wasn't really a sustainable place. So

59:39

that's why I left. Um,

59:43

one last question. Who was in charge of Doge when

59:45

you were there? I

59:47

would love to know that answer. Uh,

59:50

so, um, the,

59:52

um, was it the

59:54

lady in Cancun on vacation? So

59:56

Amy was the acting or

59:58

is was is I don't

1:00:00

actually know so was the

1:00:03

acting administrator sometime towards the

1:00:05

end of February prior to

1:00:07

that there had been no

1:00:09

decision -making for Legacy U

1:00:11

SDS. So there was nobody

1:00:13

to approve a travel request

1:00:15

or say you can have

1:00:17

a bigger team Until until

1:00:19

Amy was appointed acting administrator.

1:00:21

Did you ever meet her? Yeah,

1:00:24

you did So she was actually

1:00:26

around. Yeah, she was.

1:00:28

And she had, we overlapped briefly when

1:00:30

I first joined USDS. She did a

1:00:32

lot of the COVID work and I

1:00:34

did child tax credit expansion. So

1:00:36

yeah, she came back. Oh, she

1:00:38

was already at USDS. She

1:00:41

was there and she left. digital services.

1:00:43

She left and then she came back. Exactly. And

1:00:47

found out that she was in charge of Doge.

1:00:50

Correct. Great. Did

1:00:52

you ever meet Elon Musk? I did

1:00:54

not know. Yeah, I was gonna

1:00:56

ask if he like actually made eye

1:00:59

contact. I'd be curious about that. Is

1:01:02

there anything else you feel like we

1:01:04

should know? I mean, I know that you

1:01:06

were involved in some of the early

1:01:08

stages of Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. I

1:01:11

imagine a lot

1:01:13

of your experience

1:01:15

at within the

1:01:17

IRS was replicated

1:01:19

at agencies throughout

1:01:21

the The

1:01:23

government, I mean, it

1:01:25

does feel like, you know,

1:01:27

now that we're seeing, are we

1:01:29

up to number four or five

1:01:31

acting directors of the IRS? This

1:01:35

is not, I'm

1:01:37

not, you know,

1:01:40

we literally are,

1:01:42

which is fascinating. I

1:01:46

guess my last question would be,

1:01:48

and maybe this is sort of outside

1:01:50

of your perspective, but. There's

1:01:52

a sense that Doge was

1:01:54

a tool by an existing

1:01:56

agenda that was sort of

1:01:58

laid out in Project 2025,

1:02:01

but also predates that in terms

1:02:03

of, particularly in the context of

1:02:06

the IRS, but other

1:02:08

agencies, you know, getting rid of the

1:02:10

Department of Education, et cetera, et

1:02:12

cetera. How much, like

1:02:14

how... How much

1:02:16

of that did you

1:02:18

observe? Was that observable in

1:02:21

conversation you had with

1:02:23

other members of the digital

1:02:25

services that may have

1:02:27

been embedded in other agencies?

1:02:30

Could you observe

1:02:32

that? Was that

1:02:34

where the ideological

1:02:36

agendas behind these

1:02:38

instruments? were they

1:02:40

differentiated in terms

1:02:42

of personnel at all

1:02:44

or approach? Because

1:02:47

I think we've moved past doge's

1:02:49

attempt to do whatever they

1:02:51

were attempting to do, which largely

1:02:53

seemed to have not saved

1:02:55

the government any money at all,

1:02:57

but have created the mayhem

1:02:59

that almost like a rototiller goes

1:03:01

and loosens up the soil.

1:03:03

And now we have Russell votes,

1:03:05

sort of like a wave

1:03:07

of assault on the government coming,

1:03:09

where it's more RIF, as

1:03:11

you say, reduction in force, which

1:03:13

is different than what the

1:03:15

doge approach was. So,

1:03:18

Hai was actually open

1:03:21

-minded and a bit

1:03:23

excited to have a

1:03:25

team of technologists come

1:03:27

in that said that

1:03:29

they wanted to add

1:03:32

more. engineers, and they

1:03:34

wanted to bring more people into government

1:03:36

with these skills. That's something we've

1:03:38

been advocating for. It's what we did

1:03:40

at the CFPB. We were one of

1:03:42

the first in -house teams, actually globally. And

1:03:46

so it was like, oh,

1:03:48

great. And it became really

1:03:50

clear. I think the Bureau

1:03:52

of Physical Services, the payment systems, it

1:03:55

became very clear that, oh,

1:03:57

we are here for very

1:03:59

different purposes. And

1:04:01

that ideology, to

1:04:03

me, that was that first, I

1:04:05

guess, observation was like, OK,

1:04:07

this is two different missions. And

1:04:10

with old USDS, we would

1:04:12

come in and we would want

1:04:14

to touch those systems to

1:04:16

make them get you a tax

1:04:19

refund quicker or to pass

1:04:21

a payment through to the New

1:04:23

York State Health and Human

1:04:25

Services for their Medicaid payment. more

1:04:27

efficiently. And these individuals

1:04:29

came in to shut it off to

1:04:31

say, Nope, I'm not going to pay

1:04:33

you and I'm not going to pay

1:04:35

you because I don't feel like it.

1:04:37

I don't really like you. And those

1:04:39

are that's when the ideology became very

1:04:41

different. I think beyond that, there's been

1:04:43

nothing built, nothing

1:04:45

built. everything has just been indiscriminate

1:04:48

cuts of you know of

1:04:50

people out of government or cuts

1:04:52

of programs and That's what

1:04:54

I worry the most about is

1:04:56

how are we going to

1:04:58

what's gonna be left, right? What's

1:05:00

gonna be left and our people

1:05:02

are gonna be able to get

1:05:04

through this is it gonna impact

1:05:06

Social Security checks and payments is

1:05:08

it gonna impact tax refunds but

1:05:10

then beyond that How do we

1:05:12

rebuild from there and I I

1:05:14

think You know, I am optimistic

1:05:16

and I'm hopeful. I think we

1:05:18

can build. I think I definitely

1:05:20

think that we have helped. We've

1:05:22

built ourselves and we can redo

1:05:24

it again. But it's going

1:05:26

to take a very ambitious vision and

1:05:28

thousands of people to help us do

1:05:30

that. What were people

1:05:33

saying about that payment system?

1:05:35

Because we had Nathan Tankis

1:05:37

on the program who was

1:05:39

one of the people to

1:05:41

ring one of the first

1:05:44

alarms about the doge people

1:05:46

messing in around the payment

1:05:48

system. But

1:05:50

there's also sort of like, there's the

1:05:52

technical aspects of that. And then there's

1:05:54

also the sort of the way that

1:05:56

you instrumentalize

1:06:00

that system as a

1:06:02

way of just sort of

1:06:04

like having more authority

1:06:07

than you should have. Because

1:06:09

if you have the ability to

1:06:11

just basically take money out of,

1:06:13

you mentioned New York payments, you

1:06:15

have the ability to take money

1:06:17

out of someone's ledger within the

1:06:19

government, it

1:06:21

begins to

1:06:24

undermine money

1:06:26

in a

1:06:28

way. I

1:06:30

mean, I was just reading

1:06:32

and Nathan Tankus and his interview

1:06:35

with Paul Krugman. If

1:06:37

I give you a dollar, you

1:06:39

walk away with that dollar. It's quite

1:06:41

clear that you have that dollar.

1:06:43

That's your dollar and you may decide

1:06:45

to give it back to me

1:06:47

or not. But if I give you

1:06:50

money electronically and then have the

1:06:52

ability at any point to pull it

1:06:54

back, it begins

1:06:56

to undermine the way that

1:06:58

we perceive

1:07:01

money on some level

1:07:03

as it becomes increasingly, you

1:07:06

know, just a

1:07:08

question of a ledger. Yeah,

1:07:11

absolutely. It

1:07:13

was pretty stunning to see. It's

1:07:16

my understanding that during the

1:07:18

transition, so a friend of BFS

1:07:20

said to me, nobody's ever

1:07:22

come to us during

1:07:24

a transition. And typically,

1:07:27

like a new administration will come

1:07:29

to us six months on. BFS.

1:07:31

That Bureau of Fiscal Services, sorry,

1:07:33

the organization that oversees the payments. And

1:07:37

they sit within Treasury. They

1:07:39

are a low -key agency.

1:07:41

Their job is to do

1:07:43

government payments to individuals, to

1:07:46

other government agencies, and to

1:07:48

people that you know, to organizations

1:07:51

that the government owes money

1:07:53

to. This is complete operational stuff.

1:07:55

There is no policy implications

1:07:57

to what they do. They just

1:07:59

execute what the policy makers

1:08:01

have done and what the, they're,

1:08:04

they're, you know,

1:08:06

clock, clockmakers, essentially.

1:08:09

Absolutely. And there

1:08:12

was not an understanding

1:08:14

that That's how it works.

1:08:16

I think what Doge had intended to

1:08:18

do and was made public with one

1:08:20

of the first weekends during the administration, when

1:08:23

the head of the Bureau

1:08:25

of Fiscal Services was asked to

1:08:27

do something to stop a

1:08:29

payment to USAID. And he

1:08:31

said, no, that's not how this works. And

1:08:33

then he was pushed aside. And

1:08:36

his BFS was there

1:08:38

to facilitate the payment. It

1:08:40

wasn't BFS's decision. to,

1:08:42

you know, that the originating home

1:08:44

agency of that payment was the

1:08:47

ones that wrote the policies that

1:08:49

said this is a legitimate, you

1:08:51

know, payment request, facilitate

1:08:53

it, BFS. And

1:08:55

Doja, I believe, really learned a

1:08:57

lot that weekend, which is, oh, this

1:09:00

is just, this is a, this

1:09:02

organization is just here to facilitate those

1:09:04

payments. And it is very different than

1:09:06

the private sector, but But that is what

1:09:08

that organization does. And to me, that

1:09:10

was one of the first kind of insights

1:09:13

into the differences in ideology. It's

1:09:16

interesting stuff. Marisi

1:09:18

Vinton, former staffer at

1:09:20

the U .S. Digital Service Department. I

1:09:23

hope you have an opportunity

1:09:25

to return someday under better

1:09:27

circumstances. I suspect there's a

1:09:29

lot of people who, you

1:09:33

know, we've lost in terms of

1:09:35

government service. people who

1:09:37

are just looking to serve citizens

1:09:39

and hopefully they'll be in a position

1:09:41

to be able to come back

1:09:43

at one point and we'll do so.

1:09:45

Thank you so much for your

1:09:47

time today. I really appreciate it. Thank

1:09:49

you. Great conversation. Thanks. All

1:09:52

right, folks. We're going to

1:09:54

move into the fun half

1:09:56

of the program, wherein we

1:09:58

will have fun. I

1:10:03

think, you know, I

1:10:06

just saw some polling

1:10:08

that just came out,

1:10:10

actually, from the

1:10:12

PCCC, the

1:10:14

Progressive Change Institute.

1:10:18

Progressive Change Institute. Is

1:10:21

that it is? Progressive Change

1:10:23

Campaign Committee. Yes, but this is,

1:10:25

I think, from the Change

1:10:27

Institute and Data for Progress. They

1:10:33

were looking at

1:10:35

messages that resonated

1:10:37

across partisan affiliation.

1:10:44

It's interesting. Wrong

1:10:47

approach to efficiency

1:10:49

about Doge was number

1:10:52

one. And

1:10:54

it was, if we want the government

1:10:56

to be more efficient, we should crack

1:10:58

down on corporate tax sheets, not cut

1:11:00

benefits from families and veterans and seniors. Was

1:11:04

the best performing with all

1:11:06

likely voters, best performing with independents,

1:11:08

best performing with Republicans, apparently

1:11:10

it was the third best with

1:11:12

Democrats. The first

1:11:14

best with Democrats.

1:11:17

was musk and dozer stealing

1:11:19

from you by cutting

1:11:21

social security and a medicare

1:11:23

medicaid but the uh...

1:11:26

i would bet that the

1:11:28

political orientation of people

1:11:30

in the u .s. digital services

1:11:33

ranged from like

1:11:35

center to center broadly

1:11:37

speaking uh... they

1:11:40

were just in there

1:11:42

they're they're just

1:11:44

their engineers And

1:11:46

they're in there, you know,

1:11:48

they're very much, in my

1:11:50

experience with engineers, they,

1:11:53

hey, they generally say

1:11:55

stuff that you don't understand

1:11:57

and think that you

1:11:59

do understand it. That's

1:12:01

been my experience. But

1:12:03

also are just, are

1:12:05

very project oriented. And

1:12:08

so I don't know,

1:12:10

that's maybe a good interview

1:12:12

to send around to

1:12:14

your Doge

1:12:17

supporting relatives Because I

1:12:19

mean it is just undermining

1:12:21

the government for I

1:12:23

mean it really does feel

1:12:25

like That the value

1:12:27

to the ideological project that

1:12:29

the Republicans have was

1:12:31

that does just went in

1:12:33

there and and functioned

1:12:35

like a rototiller and just

1:12:37

tilled Loosen the stuff

1:12:39

up and now Russell vote

1:12:41

comes in with all

1:12:43

of those heritage foundation resumes

1:12:47

and takes the little skid steer and

1:12:49

starts to scoop up that loose soil. It's

1:12:53

springtime, so that's where my mind is. Tilling

1:12:57

and gardening. Cultivation.

1:13:00

Cultivation. Folks, it's

1:13:02

your support that makes this show possible.

1:13:04

You can become a member and join

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1:13:08

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1:13:11

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1:13:13

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1:13:15

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1:13:45

just coffee. Remember

1:13:47

them? 10 % off, right,

1:13:49

Russ? You fix that in the

1:13:51

YouTube? Great. 10 % off

1:13:53

with the coupon code majority. You

1:13:56

can get the majority report blend. You

1:13:58

can also get the other blends. You

1:14:00

can get that really bitter WTF blend

1:14:02

if you want. But

1:14:05

justcoffee .coop.

1:14:11

Matt left reckoning Yeah before I get

1:14:13

to that occurs to me the

1:14:15

VA does abortion care, so I imagine

1:14:17

that might run into some of

1:14:19

the Christian Issue there the anti -christian

1:14:21

stuff. Uh -huh last night on left

1:14:23

reckoning actually we had Megan Day on

1:14:25

talking about a lot of things

1:14:27

from doge to tariffs to tradwives and

1:14:29

her take on the doge thing

1:14:31

is kind of just what we were

1:14:33

talking about which is to

1:14:36

look at how a place like

1:14:38

Wells Fargo looks at it, which is,

1:14:40

oh, the USPS is on the

1:14:42

chopping block. Let's try to get a

1:14:44

strip of that prime profitable stake

1:14:46

and, you know, the people who aren't,

1:14:48

we can't service profitably. Screw them.

1:14:50

Good luck to you in rural North

1:14:52

Dakota, for instance, folks who've had

1:14:54

their post office person for decades. But

1:14:56

yeah, check that out patreon.com slash

1:14:58

left reckoning to get access to the

1:15:01

post game. Okay,

1:15:04

we're going to take a quick break. Head

1:15:07

to the fun half.

1:15:09

We will take your

1:15:12

phone calls. We will

1:15:14

read your IAMs. We

1:15:16

will tell funny anecdotes

1:15:18

about the news today.

1:15:22

See you there. Three

1:15:26

months from now six months from now

1:15:28

nine months from now And I don't

1:15:30

think it's gonna be the same as

1:15:32

it looks like in six months from

1:15:34

now And I don't know if it's

1:15:36

necessarily gonna be better six months from

1:15:38

now than it is three months from

1:15:40

now But I think around 18 months

1:15:42

out. We're gonna look back and go

1:15:44

like wow What what is that going

1:15:46

on it's nuts Wait a second hold

1:15:48

on for all done for a second

1:15:53

Emma, welcome to the program. Hey!

1:15:57

What is up

1:15:59

everyone? FunPap

1:16:02

No Me Keen You did it!

1:16:05

FunPap Let's go Let's go

1:16:07

Brandon FunPap

1:16:10

Bradley, you say hello? Uh, to

1:16:12

disappoint you. Everyone, I'm just a

1:16:14

random guy It's all boys today!

1:16:16

Fundamentally No, I'm sorry Women's Stop

1:16:18

Stop talking! For a second Now

1:16:21

let me finish Where is this

1:16:23

coming from, dude? But dude, uh,

1:16:25

you wanna smoke this, uh, Saturday?

1:16:27

Yes. Hi,

1:16:31

this me? Is this

1:16:33

me? Yes. Is

1:16:36

this Is

1:16:39

it me? It

1:16:41

is you. Is this

1:16:43

me? Hello? Is this me? I

1:16:45

think it is you, who is you? No

1:16:48

sound, every single fricken

1:16:50

day What's on your mind?

1:16:52

Sports We can discuss free

1:16:54

markets we can discuss capitalism

1:16:57

Libertarian this so stupid common

1:16:59

says of course gobbledygook fucking

1:17:01

nailed So, what's 79 plus

1:17:03

21? Challenge map. Positive equilibrium.

1:17:05

I I believe 96,

1:17:07

I want say 8, 5,

1:17:09

7, 2, 1, 0, 8,

1:17:12

5, 0, 1, 1, 1,

1:17:14

1, 1, 8 911 3400

1:17:17

1, 1, 1,

1:17:19

1, 1, 1, 654 3 trillion

1:17:21

Sold It's a zero -sum game Actually,

1:17:23

you're making me think less of

1:17:25

it But let me say this

1:17:28

You can call it satire Sam goes

1:17:30

with satire On top of it all My

1:17:33

part about you is like every

1:17:35

day, all day, like you do

1:17:37

Without a doubt Hey buddy, we've

1:17:39

seen you All

1:17:41

right, folks.

1:17:43

Folks. Folks. It's

1:17:48

just the weak weeded out obviously.

1:17:50

Yeah, slung out guns at them.

1:17:53

Out I

1:17:55

I don't know But you

1:17:57

should know People

1:18:00

just don't like to entertain ideas,

1:18:02

anymore. I have a question. Who cares?

1:18:06

Our chat enabled, folks.

1:18:08

love it. I do love that. Got

1:18:12

jump. Gotta be quick. I got

1:18:14

to jump. I'm it, bro. 2

1:18:18

o We're already late. And the guy's

1:18:20

been dick. So him. Sent

1:18:24

to a gulag. Outrageous. Like,

1:18:26

What is wrong with you? Love

1:18:29

you, bye. Love

1:18:31

you. Bye bye.