0:00

Donald Trump has an extraordinary approach

0:02

to the presidency. At the NPR

0:04

Politics Podcast, we're recapping the first

0:06

100 days of Donald Trump's second

0:08

term from his early promises to

0:11

his policy decisions and what it

0:13

all means for you. Politics may

0:15

not always make sense, but we'll

0:17

sort it out together over on

0:19

the NPR Politics Podcast. Hey, it's

0:21

Todd, your host for this

0:24

edition of the News Roundup.

0:26

Just a quick heads up

0:28

before we start the show.

0:30

The news is... constantly changing

0:32

and things might have changed

0:34

by the time you hear

0:36

this episode. Stay up to

0:38

date with the news by

0:40

listening to your local

0:43

NPR member station

0:45

and by visiting

0:47

npr.org for all

0:49

the latest. Thanks

0:51

for listening. Enjoy the

0:54

show. This time next week we will

0:56

be past the first 100 days

0:58

of Donald Trump's second term. And

1:00

it's clear, the honeymoon is over.

1:02

Here are some of his latest numbers.

1:04

New Gallup polling shows that

1:07

a majority of Americans believe

1:09

their personal economic situation is

1:12

worsening. And on immigration, usually

1:14

the strongest issue for the

1:16

president, a Washington Post, ABC

1:18

News, Ipsos Poll shows a

1:20

majority of Americans, 53% disapprove

1:22

of Trump's handling of that

1:24

issue. 46% still approve. But

1:26

that is a reversal from

1:28

February when half the public

1:30

said they were in favor

1:32

of his approach on immigration.

1:34

But overall, the president... is

1:36

underwater. Just 44% of Americans

1:39

approve of Donald Trump's overall

1:41

job performance in the latest

1:43

New York Times tracking poll

1:46

that averages dozens of national

1:48

polls. 52% disapprove and that

1:50

is not a great place to be

1:52

for a president at the end of

1:54

his first 100 days. So let's break

1:56

it all down issue by issue with

1:58

this reliably. fantastic panel. Zoe

2:01

Clark is political director at Michigan

2:03

Public. where she follows everything in

2:05

one of the swingiest of swing

2:07

states. Hi, Zoe. Hello, Todd. Swing

2:09

it over there. Arthur Delaney is

2:11

here. Arthur Delaney is also here.

2:13

Senior reporter at Huff post. Arthur,

2:15

great to see you. Great to

2:17

be here. And we welcome Josh

2:19

Wingrove, White House reporter with Bloomberg

2:21

News. Josh, happy to have you.

2:23

Thank you for having me. Lots

2:25

to talk about. And we'll get

2:27

it all in here somehow with

2:29

brief answers from my distinguished panel.

2:31

brief statements from the host,

2:33

let's all cooperate together. Zoe,

2:35

you got that? I'm here for

2:37

it. Let's see if I can live

2:39

up to it. Executive producers are like,

2:42

yeah, not likely. Okay, anyone who has

2:44

braved the traffic in downtown DC

2:46

will tell you. It can be really

2:48

hard to make a U-turn, unless of course

2:50

you're in the White House. We're going to

2:53

be very good to China. I have

2:55

a great relationship with President Xi, and

2:57

I think they're going to live together

2:59

very happily. ideally work together so I

3:01

think it's going to work out very

3:03

well but no it's at a hundred

3:06

and forty five percent there will not

3:08

be anywhere near that number oh well that

3:10

you turn wasn't the only change in the

3:12

direction of travel just a perfect time

3:14

to lower interest rates if he doesn't is

3:16

it the end to no but no I

3:19

have no intention to fire him Josh

3:21

inconsistent messaging even impulsivity from the

3:23

Oval office are things that we

3:26

now expect but let's start with

3:28

president trumps backtracking on

3:30

Federal Reserve Chairman Jerome Powell,

3:32

the second comment we heard there hours after

3:34

he called him quote a major loser now

3:37

saying he's safe I'm not going to get

3:39

rid of him, why the change? I mean

3:41

the reporting is that Secretary

3:43

Besson and Lutnik sort of

3:45

got to him and asked him to

3:47

lay off Powell and there might be

3:50

a couple of reasons. is that the

3:52

markets we're reacting very negatively to the

3:54

pressure on palo is perceived as an

3:56

encroachment on fed independence, which is really

3:59

a bedrock. of a lot of the

4:01

financial system as we all know. And

4:03

so the question here is like if

4:06

Trump keeps like, you know, bashing Powell,

4:08

bashing Powell, bashing Powell, that could fuel,

4:10

you know, what we're already sort of

4:13

what Trump has acknowledged as sort of

4:15

a yippy environment in the markets, although

4:17

they've been on a run the

4:19

last few days in a positive direction.

4:22

So the other reason, and my Bloomberg

4:24

colleagues have looked at this as

4:26

well, is not... clarity on whether he

4:28

has the authority he's waffled and his

4:31

administration has said publicly they were studying

4:33

whether they had the power to fire

4:35

him but it would at least be

4:38

disputed to say the least and second

4:40

you know okay so you get in

4:42

some absolute lackey and make them lower

4:45

rates well interest rates are where they

4:47

are right now because the Fed

4:49

is worried still about inflation and inflation

4:51

is sort of simmering in part still

4:54

because of some of the terror

4:56

factions that Trump is doing both the

4:58

actual price levels themselves and the potential

5:00

shortages that we could see from these

5:03

China terrorists, which are simply stopping shipments.

5:05

I mean, those tariffs are like, it's

5:07

like a trade embargo at that level,

5:10

right? So, and Secretary of Besson himself

5:12

has said that. And so, they sort

5:14

of had him sort of walk away

5:17

from the hot burner on the

5:19

stove a little bit with Powell. And

5:21

his term is up in 2026 anyway,

5:23

isn't worth going after him. Well, and

5:26

Powell has, Powell's trying to get ahead

5:28

of this. I mean, he has been

5:30

signaling for a long time for a

5:33

long time, that he has. when they

5:35

can get them love stability and love

5:37

predictability. Threatening the independence of the Fed

5:40

is not that. What were Republicans

5:42

and market lovers even saying about the

5:44

threat of firing Jerome Powell? Well, I

5:46

mean, you saw the markets do

5:48

exactly what we just talked about. I

5:51

mean, they pushed back and it's sort

5:53

of fascinating, right, that maybe, you know,

5:55

Republicans are going to push back on

5:58

Trump's policies, maybe some educational institutions, but

6:00

the markets sort of speak for themselves,

6:02

right? So there's this question, you know,

6:05

does this mean Powell is somehow more

6:07

powerful than Trump or is it just...

6:09

that the markets are more powerful

6:11

than Trump and really showing a message

6:14

as you say that they don't. want

6:16

the chaos. And that is the

6:18

same with the conversation about tariffs. You

6:20

know, if you want manufacturing, if you

6:23

want business to feel stable, if you

6:25

want a workable economy. And that's not

6:27

what we're seeing when we're seeing these

6:30

sort of hamlet back and forth discussions,

6:32

whether it be Powell, whether it be

6:34

tariffs, you know, businesses do not like

6:37

that. Well, Michigan would know a thing

6:39

or two. We like to think

6:41

we know about that about supply chains

6:43

and man. manufacturing and that's exactly it

6:46

and you talk to business leaders

6:48

here in the state and these are

6:50

sometimes I mean these are like Republican

6:52

business leaders conservative business leaders who are

6:55

starting to be vocal and pushing back

6:57

because again if something doesn't change soon

6:59

the long-term effects are going to start

7:02

to dig in. Well on Monday at

7:04

the White House the CEOs showed up.

7:06

The CEOs of big retailers, Walmart, Target,

7:09

Lowe's, Home Depot, all in the

7:11

Oval Office. CNN reports that they were

7:13

there to sound the alarm on the

7:15

impact of tariffs on retail and

7:17

warn the president of, here's a quote,

7:20

empty shelves. Arthur, what do we know

7:22

about that meeting and its impact on

7:24

Donald Trump? Well, the retailers themselves afterward

7:27

put out anodyne statements, but this was

7:29

the reporting from anonymous officials that Trump

7:31

was warned. by these people that his

7:34

tariffs were going to wreck their businesses,

7:36

that it might take a couple weeks,

7:38

but eventually you are going to

7:40

have empty shelves because of what Josh

7:43

mentioned. The ships aren't going. So a

7:45

lot of companies have inventory and they're

7:47

going through it, but there's a massive

7:50

disruption on the horizon that would not

7:52

make people happy. The Wall Street Journal

7:54

editorial board on Wednesday wrote and here's

7:57

a quote, the harsh reality is that

7:59

China. called Mr. Trump's bluff and seems

8:01

to have won this round. Josh,

8:03

talk a little bit more about 145%.

8:06

Terrace, we talked about Jerome Powell. What

8:08

about the step down on confrontation

8:10

with China? Is a deal in the

8:12

often, what has changed Trump's tone about

8:15

China? I mean, it reminds me of

8:17

like a high school romance. I mean,

8:19

both are just waiting for the other

8:22

to pick up the call opponent. You

8:24

know, ask them for a date here.

8:26

Trump wants she to call him. All

8:29

the reporting out of our friends in

8:31

Asia is that that's not the

8:33

way the way the Chinese. work. She

8:35

will get on the phone to cap

8:38

a deal, but they sort of

8:40

work upwards the latter when they come

8:42

to these kind of negotiations. Trump wants

8:44

a deal. It's clear. He's mused about

8:47

lowering rates. It's 125 plus that 20

8:49

on fentanyl. Following the bouncing ball and

8:52

this has been an ordeal. And remember,

8:54

he's dropped the rest of those. reciprocal

8:56

tariffs, quote unquote reciprocal tariffs to 10%

8:59

90 day clock. If 145% was designed

9:01

to force China to the table

9:03

or make a deal, has it worked?

9:05

It is not forced them to the

9:08

table. It seems designed to the

9:10

table, but it is not forced them

9:12

to the table. It seems designed to,

9:14

but it is not forced them to

9:17

the table, but it is not forced

9:19

them to the table. He's exempting some

9:21

goods. He's planning to hit them with

9:24

a separate tariff. 145% tariff. On Tuesday,

9:26

more bad news on the economy with

9:28

origins in the White House. The International

9:31

Monetary Fund IMF lowered its 2025

9:33

projections for U.S. economic growth to just

9:35

1.8%. Now that's close to a full

9:37

percentage point down from its forecast

9:39

delivered in January, and the Treasury Secretary

9:42

Scott Besson pushed back on Wednesday by

9:44

going after the messenger. He called for

9:46

major overhauls to the mission of the

9:49

IMF, not so much paying attention to

9:51

the warnings that they issue. Josh, what

9:53

does it mean for our economy when

9:56

an organization like the IMF comes out

9:58

with such a major downgrade? I mean,

10:00

they're signaling that this is an

10:02

alarm situation and that all the things

10:05

that are slowing down. are going to

10:07

have an impact. And to the point

10:09

of Michigan, right, Trump's going to Michigan

10:12

next week to celebrate his 100 days.

10:14

And he wants to talk about his

10:16

revival there. No one's going to build

10:19

a factory if they don't know what

10:21

the tariff's going to be a week

10:23

from now, a month or now,

10:25

a year from now. So that's part

10:28

of the uncertainty over this. Michigan, you

10:30

say, well, let's talk about Michigan

10:32

and the view from Michigan with the

10:34

Department of Government efficiency or Doge. And

10:37

I expect that this year will be

10:39

probably be some unexpected bumps this year.

10:41

I'll continue to spend a day or

10:44

two per week on government matters. I'll

10:46

continue to advocate for lower tariffs rather

10:48

than higher tariffs, but that's all I

10:51

can do. That was Elon Musk on

10:53

a call with investors on Tuesday.

10:55

Musk said he'll dedicate more time to

10:57

Tesla, less time to his work with

11:00

the Trump administration as you heard

11:02

there. That was after the company reported

11:04

a jaw-dropping drop. in first quarter profits

11:06

and revenue. Zoe, how bad have things

11:09

gotten for Tesla? Yeah, things ain't great.

11:11

Todd reported a 20% drop in revenue

11:13

during the first quarter stock was down

11:16

some 40% this year. I also saw

11:18

one statistic at some point this week

11:20

that Musk himself has lost nearly the

11:23

same amount of money that he

11:25

says Doge has actually cut. from the

11:27

federal government take that as what you

11:29

will. But in this earnings call,

11:31

as you said, Musk said he's going

11:34

to be spending more time, you know,

11:36

devoting more time now to Tesla. And

11:38

then we saw Tesla stock actually jump

11:41

back up about 5% and after hours

11:43

trading pretty quickly. A couple more numbers.

11:45

Let's do some more numbers. Sorry, Kyrist

11:48

all don't at me. $150 billion is

11:50

the amount now that Doge can hang

11:52

its hat on for cutting government

11:54

spending this year. $150 billion might sound

11:57

like a lot. Elon Musk's original promise

11:59

for Doge was $2 trillion. So $150

12:01

billion. 50 billion as Elon Musk takes

12:04

a step away from Doge. It's not

12:06

even a real number anyway. 150 isn't

12:08

even real. We can talk more about

12:11

that too. After this short break, we're

12:13

rounding up the week's biggest headlines. Stay

12:15

with us. We'll be back with

12:17

more in just a moment. This message

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take your business to the next

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level today. At NPR's Pop Culture

12:52

Happy Hour, we sort through a

12:54

lot of television, and we've found

12:56

some recent TV comedies we really

12:58

like that you don't want to

13:00

miss. And we'll tell you where

13:02

to watch them in one handy

13:05

guide. Listen to the Pop Culture

13:07

Happy Hour podcast from NPR. All

13:09

right, let's talk about deportations, lots

13:11

of news around the Trump administration's

13:13

regime on deportation of migrants, alleged

13:15

gang gang members. and the courts

13:17

in America. The Trump administration is

13:20

on a collision course with the

13:22

courts. On Saturday, the Supreme Court

13:24

issued a temporary block to any

13:26

more deportations of Venezuelans under the

13:28

Alien Enemies Act of 1798. The

13:30

American Civil Liberties Union is suing

13:32

in jurisdictions all across the country

13:35

and Skodis stepped in right in

13:37

the middle of it. A reminder,

13:39

these migrants, the Trump administration alleges.

13:41

are gang members and have attempted

13:43

to remove without due process. They're

13:45

all they've already sent more than

13:47

250 people to that notorious secot

13:49

prison in L cell. Arthur, what

13:52

happens after the Supreme Court's temporary

13:54

block in the alien enemies program?

13:56

Well, first of all, that was

13:58

an extraordinary intervention late on Saturday

14:00

night. The Trump administration was not

14:02

supposed to be doing what the

14:04

ACLU apparently convinced the Supreme Court

14:07

they were doing, which is deporting

14:09

more people without giving them the

14:11

due process that the Supreme Court

14:13

had said in an earlier ruling

14:15

they had to provide. Also, the

14:17

Trump administration is thumbing its nose

14:19

at the Supreme Court saying they

14:22

will not facilitate the return of

14:24

this man who is sent to

14:26

that Gulag in El Salvador. And

14:28

so it's possible the Supreme Court

14:30

has had it. But they are

14:32

going to make a new ruling.

14:34

It could be while we're talking

14:37

right now today. It could be

14:39

another time. They could say, knock

14:41

it off. You can't use this

14:43

law. It's unconstitutional. It's illegal. Or

14:45

they can say, go ahead. My

14:47

guess is they would find some

14:49

way to land in the middle,

14:52

but we're expecting another major ruling

14:54

from them soon. And due process

14:56

remains the point. The White House

14:58

has been on a PR campaign

15:00

around migrants, around Kilmar, Abrego Garcia,

15:02

a separate but related case, that

15:04

he's a gang member, he's an

15:07

abuser, he's a terrorist. All of

15:09

that is political backfill. It has

15:11

more to do, much more to

15:13

do with due process, and that's

15:15

what the Supreme Court, I imagine,

15:17

that's what the lower courts have

15:19

been concerned with. Speaking of due

15:22

process, the president took to social

15:24

media, this week writing this, we

15:26

cannot give everyone a trial because

15:28

to do so would take without

15:30

exaggeration 200 years. A judge can't

15:32

say, no, you have to have

15:34

a trial, that let's, the trial

15:37

is going to take two years,

15:39

and now we're going to have

15:41

a very... We're going to have

15:43

a very dangerous country if we're

15:45

not allowed to do what we're

15:47

entitled to do. Zoe Clark, what

15:49

kind of response did we see

15:52

to the president's attack on due

15:54

process there? Oh, I mean, folks

15:56

are aghast. I mean, most folks.

15:58

many folks, I should say, are

16:00

a guest. I mean, the rule

16:02

of law, due process, fundamental parts

16:04

of what it means to be

16:06

American, what it means to be

16:09

in America, and the rights that

16:11

citizens and non-citizen's alike have. But

16:13

you saw folks like J.D. Vance

16:15

taking to Twitter, basically trying to

16:17

sort of thread a needle. And

16:19

then as you heard the audio

16:21

from the president there, basically just

16:24

sort of making this argument, well

16:26

we couldn't possibly do it because

16:28

it would take too long. You

16:30

know, the issue is, and we

16:32

know this, that the United States

16:34

does have an immigration problem, right?

16:36

I mean, Democrats will say that.

16:39

Republicans will say that. And as

16:41

we've talked about the show, though,

16:43

there have been policies that have

16:45

been put into place to try

16:47

to at least lessen the crisis

16:49

at the border. A proposal that

16:51

Democrats and Republicans had come together

16:54

last year that this president basically

16:56

torpedoed. What the courts have said,

16:58

many courts have said so far

17:00

who've ruled on this issue, is

17:02

that migrants before they're deported must

17:04

have the opportunity to challenge their

17:06

deportation. Donald Trump puts it in

17:09

the language of a trial, but

17:11

it's not a trial. There's no

17:13

jury. It's the ability to challenge

17:15

the fact that the government has

17:17

swept you up and is going

17:19

to deport you. And that's what

17:21

they haven't had so far. We'll

17:24

see where the Supreme Court and

17:26

other courts go. Trump administration. His

17:28

case especially stands out because until

17:30

this week he was completely missing

17:32

on Tuesday the New York Times

17:34

published an article describing how no

17:36

friends and no family could track

17:39

down what happened to Vasquez. The

17:41

government failed to list his deportation

17:43

and location on any publicly accessible

17:45

record only after the publication of

17:47

that story did the Department of

17:49

Homeland Security confirm that Vasquez was

17:51

indeed sent to El Salvador on

17:54

March 15th. Josh, what more do

17:56

we know about what happened to

17:58

Prado Vasquez? So this is a

18:00

case where he made a wrong,

18:02

he was doing a McDonald's delivery

18:04

driver, and he made a wrong

18:06

turn around the Ambassador Bridge. Now,

18:08

Zoe will be able to tell

18:11

us, but I can tell you

18:13

as well, that those roads around

18:15

there are a mess. And so

18:17

confusing. Yes, so confusing. It's so

18:19

confusing. So he made a wrong

18:21

turn, and the Ambassador Bridge goes to

18:24

Canada. my homeland, I should say, before I

18:26

move to the States. So now he, therefore,

18:28

talk about alien enemies. I know, I know,

18:30

we're in your midst, be careful. And so

18:33

he tried, he essentially was reentering when he

18:35

tried to come back in, and that's where

18:37

they got him. These are the types of

18:39

cases that have people. sort of on

18:41

edge right now and are raising

18:44

questions about the process. Well, meanwhile,

18:46

there are developments in the case

18:48

of Kilmer, Arburgo Garcia. You've heard

18:50

the name. He's the Maryland man

18:52

who the Trump administration mistakenly deported

18:54

to the Sikhot Salvador in prison.

18:56

Democrats are rallying around Garcia. This

18:58

week, four Democratic members of the

19:00

House traveled to El Salvador to

19:02

see Arrigo Garcia. They were denied

19:05

access. Maxine Dexter of Oregon was

19:07

part of that group. We want to

19:09

keep this in... the press cycle. We

19:11

want to keep it in the public

19:13

eye. We want people to understand the

19:15

crisis that literally is right here right

19:18

now because this is a red line

19:20

in the sand that America is stepping

19:22

over into no rule of law. The

19:25

Trump administration acknowledges Abrego

19:27

Garcia's deportation was done

19:29

in error and the Supreme

19:31

Court ruling ordered it to help

19:33

facilitate Abrego Garcia's return to the

19:36

United States. That was a Supreme

19:38

Court order, but that has not

19:40

happened and this week a federal

19:43

judge ruled that the administration is

19:45

not acting in good faith to carry

19:47

out that process. But Zoe, what do you

19:49

make of... Representative Dexter there,

19:51

what she had to say, and Democrats

19:54

sort of identifying this case as one

19:56

that they think it's in their interest

19:58

to rally around and highlight. Right. I

20:00

mean, there's two things going on

20:02

with this case, right? One is

20:04

the legal, that is that the

20:06

Trump administration, as they have admitted,

20:08

as you noted, they made an

20:11

administrative error in this deportation. I

20:13

think sometimes that gets lost in

20:15

the coverage. It was an error

20:17

in the first place that Abrego

20:19

Garcia was deported. But legally, the

20:21

Trump administration has sort of doubled

20:23

down now on the area. And

20:25

as we've discussed, you know, stonewalling

20:27

court orders, some of this, as

20:29

you note, it has to do

20:31

with the wording of the Supreme

20:33

Court, you know, the quote, facilitate

20:35

this return and the Trump administration

20:37

and other federal court documents has

20:40

been cagey in sort of the

20:42

details about what we're requested. But

20:44

that's the legal. Then there is

20:46

just... the political and the political

20:48

optics, right? You have these four

20:50

members of Congress, you had Senator

20:52

Van Hall and from Maryland, traveled

20:54

to visit a Brago Garcia, you

20:56

saw this, you know, photo. Some

20:58

Democrats, those say this is not

21:00

the fight to take on. Republicans,

21:02

independence, you know, they like Trump's

21:04

heart stance on immigration, and is

21:07

this the fight that you want

21:09

to make? But as we heard,

21:11

there are other Democrats that say

21:13

this isn't about sort of one

21:15

individual, as we know it, it's

21:17

about dupes. process. It's about the

21:19

rule of law. And as you

21:21

noted at the top of the

21:23

show, you talked about approval ratings,

21:25

and Trump's approval rating on immigration

21:27

has dropped by five points just

21:29

since the beginning. of April. And

21:31

so we're starting to see, much

21:33

like we were talking about the

21:36

economy and inflation and tariffs, that

21:38

he's underwater as well now when

21:40

it comes to the sort of

21:42

hardline immigration. The criticism of Democrats

21:44

from their fellows was that this

21:46

isn't popular for us, this is

21:48

a winner for Trump, don't go

21:50

stand up for someone who's not

21:52

even a U.S. citizen, but the

21:54

polling this week really changes that

21:56

story because now it's not favor.

21:58

territory for Trump. Even the entire

22:00

concept of whether immigrants are good

22:03

for the country has flipped in

22:05

the polling. It's either just a

22:07

thermostatic reaction to Trump being president

22:09

and wrecking the economy potentially, or

22:11

it shows that democratic leadership has

22:13

a role to play in the

22:15

public discourse. So that's the political,

22:17

Zoe mentioned both the political and

22:19

the legal, back on the legal.

22:21

for a moment on the Abrego

22:23

Garcia case. The federal judge in

22:25

Maryland in charge of enforcing the

22:27

Supreme Court's order on Abrego Garcia,

22:29

she paused an inquiry into why

22:32

the Trump administration isn't working to

22:34

get him back as ordered. She

22:36

paused that for a week. Arthur,

22:38

do we know why? There are

22:40

sealed motions behind this, but the

22:42

two sides in the case have,

22:44

I believe, agreed to the pause

22:46

and suspect they're gonna bring him

22:48

back. or there's some sort of

22:50

agreement under there. But I don't

22:52

know that, but that is reading

22:54

the tea leaves of the pause.

22:56

We don't know because it's sealed,

22:59

but experts, yeah, are speculating. It

23:01

could be because she satisfied they're

23:03

actually working. Trump said in an

23:05

interview with Time, he didn't mind

23:07

bringing this person back to be

23:09

retried as he said it. Retried,

23:11

he's never been tried at all,

23:13

nor has any evidence of criminality

23:15

been presented against him. So it's

23:17

an interesting choice of words. So

23:19

it's an interesting choice of words.

23:21

Closely related to the case of

23:23

Kilmara Obrego Garcia, a federal judge

23:25

this week ordered the Trump administration

23:28

to facilitate the return of a

23:30

second man. Unlike Obrego Garcia, this

23:32

man was deported under the Alien

23:34

Enemies Act. He's known in court

23:36

documents only as Christian. Josh, what

23:38

do we know about this case?

23:40

The administration is saying that he

23:42

was convicted. of drug charges in

23:44

January, but the rub on this

23:46

one is that he was part

23:48

of a settlement, the bar, that

23:50

essentially barred or at least paused

23:52

removals. And so the order is

23:55

stemming from that saying essentially it's

23:57

breaking the law, breaking the settlement,

23:59

to try to have sent this

24:01

person back, the allegations of course,

24:03

or that he's a gang member.

24:05

Venezuelan national and I should also

24:07

note that that that settlement was

24:09

related to people who entered as

24:11

minors and so that's where this

24:13

gets tricky as well you know

24:15

this all the administration has sort

24:17

of implicitly argued publicly that a

24:19

lot of these minors quote-unquote are

24:21

17 year old you know men

24:24

who the administration is alleging are

24:26

here to do nefarious things but

24:28

of course they are minors and

24:30

so that's the fact of it.

24:32

And again, the federal district court

24:34

has ordered Christian to be returned

24:36

to the United States, remains to

24:38

be seen if the Trump administration

24:40

complies with that order. It's that

24:42

facilitated stuff like that. Oh, you're

24:44

right. To facilitate his return, not

24:46

ordered him returned. Which the administration,

24:48

it sounds like a tiny loophole,

24:51

but they are driving a Mac

24:53

truck through it and they're, you

24:55

know. Before we go, we have

24:57

some breaking news from this Friday

24:59

morning from Wisconsin NPR, has confirmed

25:01

that the FBI has arrested. a

25:03

Milwaukee judge on charges of obstructing

25:05

an immigration arrest last week. A

25:07

social media post by FBI Director

25:09

Cash Patel, which has since been

25:11

deleted, accused the judge of, quote,

25:13

intentionally misdirecting agents when they arrived

25:15

at the courthouse to detain an

25:18

immigrant. This is the first time

25:20

we know of that the Trump

25:22

administration has arrested an official for

25:24

allegedly standing in the way of

25:26

an immigration operation. A reminder that

25:28

for the latest, visit NPR. A

25:30

few quick words on the ongoing

25:32

legal battle over the future of

25:34

Voice of America. The state-run news

25:36

service went silent when all of

25:38

its employees were placed on leave

25:40

by the Trump administration in March.

25:42

On Tuesday, a federal judge ruled

25:44

that VOA workers should return to

25:47

work. But the saga will likely

25:49

continue because the government is almost

25:51

sure to appeal that ruling. And

25:53

we leave VOA. for the moment

25:55

and move across the Potomac to

25:57

the Pentagon and the Department of

25:59

Defense and the scandal now known

26:01

as 2.0. That's because of reports

26:03

that the Secretary of Defense, Pete

26:05

Hexeth, shared confidential war plans via

26:07

a group chat on signal. Again,

26:09

we've talked about the chat where

26:11

Hexeth shared attack plans with the

26:14

Atlantic's Jeffrey Goldberg. You know that

26:16

story, but Hexeth also sent people

26:18

sensitive details about the upcoming strikes

26:20

on Yemen, 13 people in another

26:22

chat, including his brother, personal lawyer,

26:24

who both work at the Department

26:26

of Defense with him, as well

26:28

as to his wife, who does

26:30

not? work at the Pentagon. Hexeth

26:32

shared flight schedules for planes involved

26:34

in the Yemen bombing operation and

26:36

he used his personal cell phone

26:38

to share the details on signal.

26:40

Zoe, what are the specific risks

26:43

of sharing details about these strikes

26:45

on an unsecured messaging app with

26:47

people not involved in the operation?

26:49

Oh my gosh, I mean, you

26:51

know, one of the main risks

26:53

that detractors say is you could

26:55

essentially be putting American lives at

26:57

risk. If you're sharing coordinated plans

26:59

where Americans will be overseas, that

27:01

just puts their safety in danger.

27:03

You heard from military veteran Senator

27:05

Tammy Duckworth, she said, Higgs, this

27:07

was a threat to our national

27:10

security. She said, quote, every day

27:12

he stays in his job is

27:14

another day. Our troops lives are

27:16

endangered. The second is just kind

27:18

of what kind of ideas are

27:20

you giving to foreign adversaries if

27:22

they know that folks within the

27:24

Pentagon could be sharing secure details

27:26

about missions on unsecured lines. This

27:28

induced countries to work together sensitive

27:30

information. I mean this latest reporting

27:32

that Hexeth had a non-secured line

27:34

installed on his work computer. to

27:36

be able to message on signal

27:39

is just another example. We're going

27:41

to talk more about that story

27:43

after we take a pause. Before

27:45

we do those, Zoe, I do

27:47

want to hear from the defense

27:49

secretary who was asked about signal

27:51

chat 2.0 at the Easter Egg

27:53

roll event on Monday at the

27:55

White House. See, this is what

27:57

the media does. They take anonymous

27:59

sources from disgruntled former employees and

28:01

then they try to slash and

28:03

burn people and ruin their reputations.

28:06

Not going to work with me

28:08

because we're changing the Defense Department,

28:10

putting the Pentagon back in the

28:12

hands of war fighters, and anonymous

28:14

smears from disgruntled former employees on

28:16

old news, doesn't matter. Arthur, there

28:18

was a lot there, but I

28:20

didn't hear the story's false and

28:22

I didn't do it. I didn't

28:24

hear a denial. He never denied

28:26

everything in his confirmation hearing. He

28:28

would just say, smears, smears, smears.

28:30

So, let's see how that's going

28:32

to work for him. I'm not

28:35

sure it's good. That's signal 2.0.

28:37

We're going to talk more after

28:39

a quick break here about the

28:41

story that Zoe Clark just mentioned,

28:43

which is a private computer with

28:45

an unsecured Wi-Fi connection on the

28:47

desk of the Defense Secretary and

28:49

a Pentagon in according to one

28:51

former official in total meltdown. Let's

28:53

head to a quick break. We'll

28:55

be back with more of the

28:57

roundup in just a moment. Stay

28:59

with us. On the next through

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it is called wherever you get

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your podcast let's get back to

30:04

the conversation and Zoe Clark mentioned

30:06

it before we took a break

30:08

let's let's linger over the Five-sided

30:10

mess that is the Pentagon right

30:12

now with the story that Zoe

30:14

mentioned Before we went for a

30:16

pause the Washington Post first reported

30:18

last evening that addition to the

30:20

signal chat that Pete Hexeth the

30:22

defense secretary Had an unsecured internet

30:25

connection Wi-Fi connection at his desk

30:27

in the Pentagon all so that

30:29

he could use signal on a

30:31

personal Computer Josh Wingrove. What's the

30:33

potential security breach here? What's this

30:35

about? I mean It's widespread, it's

30:37

widespread. The reason that DOD operates,

30:39

as does NSC, and you know,

30:41

other ends of the pool, so

30:43

to speak, is because all of

30:45

this is supposed to be top

30:47

secret or classified, to do this,

30:49

risks, spilling that out into the

30:51

open, for all the reasons that

30:54

we just said, and like, well,

30:56

signal is better than SMS as

30:58

a security system. It's not as

31:00

good as a classified hardwired. T-O-T's

31:02

system. So that's, this just continues

31:04

to simmer and I'll note, he

31:06

just consistently doesn't deny it. The

31:08

report of the second signal chat,

31:10

for instance, earlier this week, he

31:12

confirmed it while doing an interview

31:14

with Fox and Friends in the

31:16

morning, of course, the network that

31:18

used to employ him. And he's

31:21

doing it just for personal convenience.

31:23

As a Pentagon accredited correspondent, you

31:25

go into that building, your phone

31:27

does not work. Every door says

31:29

you can't bring your phone in

31:31

here. There's no texting, there's no

31:33

Wi-Fi, and so he's just trying

31:35

to get around that so he

31:37

can text his buddies. The Washington

31:39

Post reported that you cannot enter

31:41

the Secretary's office with a personal

31:43

device. You can't go in any

31:45

room! in that building with a

31:47

personal device, except for a select

31:50

few. So... There's a reason for

31:52

that. There is a reason for

31:54

that, so that people can't spy

31:56

on you, and there's supposed to

31:58

be rules. It's hard to imagine.

32:00

No one told him. He's just

32:02

getting around it for his own

32:04

convenience. The communications habits and the

32:06

internet hygiene of the defense secretary.

32:08

Meanwhile, chaos in Hexes office at

32:10

the Pentagon. Last week, one of

32:12

them former Defense Department spokesperson John

32:14

Uliat published an opinion piece in

32:17

Politico on Sunday saying there's been

32:19

a quote full-blown meltdown at the

32:21

Pentagon. NPR reported on Tuesday that

32:23

the White House had started to

32:25

look for a replacement for Secretary

32:27

Hexeth, the White House Press Secretary

32:29

Carolyn Levitt denies they're looking to

32:31

replace him, and that the President

32:33

stands strongly behind Pete Hexeth. The

32:35

President has said that he backs

32:37

the Defense Secretary. Josh Zoe Josh

32:39

you go first of what what

32:41

are the consequences of all of

32:43

this dysfunction at the Defense Department

32:46

right now? Well I think the

32:48

consequences certainly with the Trump administration

32:50

are like this is the downside

32:52

of his strategy strategy is to

32:54

dig in and fight fight fight

32:56

right we've seen this over and

32:58

over again Trump likes firing people

33:00

when it's his choice, but he

33:02

really resists doing it when it

33:04

looks like he's bowing to pressure

33:06

from Democrats or the media. And

33:08

the downside is that it becomes

33:10

this festering wound and hangs over

33:13

everything for so long. And that's

33:15

where we are with the defense

33:17

secretary and until he can like

33:19

put some, you know, sort of

33:21

weeks on the board without anything,

33:23

you know, bubbling up. It's just

33:25

going to keep... being in the

33:27

news and being a sore issue

33:29

for the president. And that's the

33:31

downside. But I really want to

33:33

emphasize, there's been just strong signals

33:35

from the White House that they

33:37

don't want to give an inch

33:40

on this. So, you know, whether

33:42

that will continue, who's to say?

33:44

So we weigh in for Michigan

33:46

on this. Yeah, I mean, and

33:48

I think that's exactly it. I

33:50

mean, crisis communications professionals will tell

33:52

you, do not make a one-day

33:54

story longer than 24 hours, and

33:56

we are now going on. what

33:58

a month of this. But to

34:00

what we've just heard, I think

34:02

this is something that Donald Trump

34:04

does not like. He does not

34:06

like being pushed into a corner

34:09

and being told what to do.

34:11

You know, fascinating enough, we saw

34:13

the first Republican Congressman, Representative Don

34:15

Bacon, who is on the House

34:17

Armed Services Committee, didn't basically say

34:19

like that Donald Trump should fire

34:21

him, but said, if I was,

34:23

you know, in Donald Trump's position,

34:25

I would, I think will be

34:27

interesting to see. if more Republicans

34:29

come out against this, but you

34:31

know, again, when you've got all

34:33

these sort of other wounds, when

34:36

you've got what's going on with

34:38

tariffs, is an immigration, as we've

34:40

talked about, is this the drip

34:42

drip drip that you want to

34:44

have continuing, particularly when it comes

34:46

to defense? Again, something that Republicans,

34:48

the Republican Party, sort of as

34:50

always, you know, held their hats

34:52

on. The turmoil in the Pentagon

34:54

among the personnel it may... less

34:56

consequential than signal gate, but it's

34:58

weirder. Because he fired three guys

35:00

saying their leakers had to get

35:02

them out, not for signal gate,

35:05

but for other stories that had

35:07

come out about the Panama Canal

35:09

and giving a briefing to Elon

35:11

Musk. And they said, we're not

35:13

leaking. We didn't leak anything. They're

35:15

being very vocal, denying that they

35:17

leaked. And another person. who is

35:19

apparently the rival of this bunch

35:21

is also being very vocal even

35:23

though the Pentagon told me he's

35:25

still an employee and he's calling

35:27

up reporters and saying, well I'm

35:29

not on drugs because I don't

35:32

have a drug dealer. And sorry,

35:34

what? That's right. Exactly what? Why

35:36

are you calling a reporter and

35:38

why is that what you would

35:40

say? And you're a senior official

35:42

at the Pentagon. That's right, he

35:44

was Pete Hexeth's chief of staff

35:46

until last week when his job

35:48

was changed, but the Pentagon said

35:50

he will remain an employee. And

35:52

Hexeth has gone to bat for

35:54

this guy in all these crazy

35:56

interviews he's giving on the South

35:58

Lawn and on Fox News. So

36:01

it's a very strange and... more

36:03

volatile situation than you would even

36:05

know from just the signal gate

36:07

stuff. I think when Congress comes

36:09

back, we'll have a lot of

36:11

eyes on Senator Joni Ernst. Remember,

36:13

the Iowa Senator, of course, was

36:15

sort of perceived to be maybe

36:17

jockeying when Exist confirmation was up

36:19

on the rocks a little bit.

36:21

what Ernst says about this or

36:23

doesn't say will be a key

36:25

amendment. And Roger Waker, the Republican

36:28

chairman of Senate Armed Services, I

36:30

mean, he got Hexeth confirmed saying,

36:32

well, we're going to have people

36:34

around you to help because you're

36:36

an unconventional nominee, but he has

36:38

bucked the administration in a lot

36:40

of ways and said, Hexeth made

36:42

a mistake about Ukraine. I don't

36:44

think they're going to have a

36:46

lot of patience for this. Okay,

36:48

Izon, Senate Republicans, National Security and

36:50

Defense Hawk Republicans, when Congress returns.

36:52

next week. Let's leave the Pentagon

36:54

on the other side of the

36:57

Potomac for the moment and look

36:59

at the Department of Health and

37:01

Human Services. On Tuesday, HHS Secretary

37:03

Robert F. Kennedy Jr. announced a

37:05

plan to eliminate petroleum-based synthetic dyes

37:07

in food by 2026 at the

37:09

same press conference as Secretary also

37:11

got a bit bitter about sugar.

37:13

There's things that will never be

37:15

able to eliminate like sugar. And

37:17

sugar is poison. Americans need to

37:19

know that. It is poisoning us.

37:21

It's giving us a diabetes crisis.

37:24

When I was a kid, I

37:26

always say this, a typical pediatrician

37:28

would see one case of diabetes

37:30

in his lifetime. Today it's one

37:32

out of every three kids who

37:34

walks through his office. This is

37:36

existential. All right, the health secretary

37:38

says he's got a war of

37:40

his own and it's on sugar,

37:42

but I want to talk about

37:44

measles and communicable. diseases in America.

37:46

Scientists at Stanford University are warning

37:48

that measles could be endemic in

37:50

the next 20 years if vaccination

37:53

rates remain where they are now.

37:55

Measles was eradicated a quarter century

37:57

ago thanks to broad use of

37:59

the MMR measles vaccine. Now there's

38:01

a major outbreak in America, more

38:03

than 800 cases nationwide, more than

38:05

625. In Texas, it's being driven

38:07

by misinformation. A Kaiser Family Foundation

38:09

poll released on Wednesday found that

38:11

more than half of Americans expressed

38:13

uncertainty about false statements on the

38:15

measles vaccine. HHS Secretary Robert F.

38:17

Kennedy Jr. has spent decades fueling

38:20

that skepticism, although he since endorsed

38:22

the measles vaccine as the best

38:24

way to prevent measles. Arthur, what

38:26

else did we learn from that

38:28

new poll from KFF? only 5%

38:30

of people said they believed that

38:32

the measles vaccine was more dangerous

38:35

than measles. So the concern is

38:37

just the uncertainty and the

38:39

amount that people are hearing

38:42

the messages against the vaccine

38:44

that RFK Jr. has spread. So it's

38:47

not a total disaster, but it's certainly

38:49

ominous. And you've got to wonder if

38:51

having a little more measles around and

38:53

seeing how bad it is will help

38:56

people understand what the vaccine is

38:58

for. People do die of it,

39:00

whooping cough is another vaccine-preventable disease,

39:02

and it is undergoing a resurgence

39:04

thanks to a drop in vaccination

39:06

rates. There have been over 8,000

39:08

cases so far this year, which

39:10

is more than double the number

39:12

of cases. reported this time last

39:15

year. Zoe Clark, what does it

39:17

mean to see these diseases surge

39:19

after having been significantly reduced or

39:21

even eradicated previously? Yeah, I mean,

39:23

it's essentially it's heartbreaking, right? I

39:25

mean, we've always had sort of

39:27

a creek of vaccine, specticism, but

39:29

now it really feels like it's

39:32

turning into a river, you know,

39:34

maybe not a raging river, but

39:36

a river nonetheless, you know, this

39:38

country... went through something unprecedented with

39:40

COVID and vaccines and science just

39:42

took an absolute beating. And that's

39:45

even though some would argue that,

39:47

you know, or highlight that one

39:49

of Trump administration's first term handling

39:52

of COVID was Operation Warpsby, right,

39:54

vaccines. But this goes back, I

39:56

just feel like essentially to this

39:58

sort of war. on institutions that

40:00

we have seen now, whether it's

40:02

science and medical research, right? But

40:05

then broader, like higher education institutions

40:07

and the high court, you know,

40:09

even journalism, essentially. We were talking

40:11

in our newsroom about, you know,

40:13

the stories that we're doing, because

40:15

we have eight cases of measles

40:17

here in Michigan. And we realized

40:19

that one of the sentences we

40:21

needed to put in was just

40:23

what. the measles are because for

40:25

so many decades we we didn't

40:27

have them. There's a generation that

40:30

doesn't even know what measles are

40:32

or what they can do to

40:34

the body because we essentially haven't

40:36

had to think about it. Over

40:38

the weekend the Trump administration speaking

40:40

of institutions and scientific information made

40:42

a change to some health government

40:44

websites. COVID.gov and COVID test.gov now

40:46

redirect a user to a new

40:48

page. promoting the lab leak theory

40:50

of COVID's origins with a picture

40:52

of Donald Trump himself in the

40:55

middle of the logo lab leak.

40:57

That's the theory that COVID-19 originated

40:59

from a government lab in Wuhan,

41:01

China. Josh, what's on the page

41:03

now and what's the significance? I

41:05

mean, it is an airing of

41:07

all the things that Trump like

41:09

to talk about towards the end

41:11

of 2020 and 2021 and afterwards

41:13

and you know, he was always...

41:15

emphatic and disinterested in the question

41:17

of whether this was more of

41:19

an organically kind of generated virus.

41:22

So I think he's sort of

41:24

all in on this theory. He's

41:26

turned the COVID page into it

41:28

and we're getting warnings from health

41:30

experts that they would like that

41:32

COVID page to have stuck to

41:34

the facts about how to handle

41:36

COVID for instance and instead he's

41:38

trying to sort of relitigate the

41:40

origins of it. I will note

41:42

though that there are of course

41:44

many people who do believe that

41:47

it did come from the lab,

41:49

non-conservative as John Stewart has talked

41:51

about this for instance. So like,

41:53

you know, he's not alone, but

41:55

that COVID page used to be

41:57

a lot different, put it that

41:59

way. All right, let's get to

42:01

some mail that we got from

42:03

listeners and people have been responding

42:05

to the conversation we're having overdue.

42:07

due process, Kilmara Brago Garcia, other

42:09

foreign nationals spirited away without due

42:12

process from the United States. Hannah

42:14

says this, the Trump administration's justification

42:16

for skipping due process when deporting

42:18

immigrants to El Salvador is that

42:20

they're terrorists too dangerous for due

42:22

process. There's absolutely nothing keeping this

42:24

administration from using the same justification

42:26

for citizens. They would say. support

42:28

Hamas, then deans and faculty of

42:30

higher ed down to anyone they

42:32

see as quote the enemy from

42:34

within, aka anyone who opposes them.

42:36

This is so far beyond a

42:39

slippery slope. Well Hannah is getting

42:41

to the crux of what due

42:43

process is a reaction from anyone

42:45

on the panel who wants to

42:47

weigh in on those concerns. That's

42:49

a good illustration. The idea is

42:51

that it protects everybody when you're

42:53

showing that if you're making... extraordinary

42:55

claims about someone you're deporting to

42:57

a foreign prison that there's at

42:59

least some verification. And if people

43:01

are just disappearing and the administration's

43:04

admitting it's mistakenly sending people to

43:06

a foreign prison, that's going to

43:08

scare everybody. I should add that

43:10

Hannah's concerns about lack of due

43:12

process being eventually applied to American

43:14

citizens or political enemies at the

43:16

administration is precisely what the Fourth

43:18

Circuit Court of Appeals warned about

43:20

in its ruling on the Alien

43:22

Enemies Act and what the Trump

43:24

administration is doing, so you can

43:26

refer back to that opinion from

43:29

the Fourth Circuit. By a Republican

43:31

appointed judge, or Reagan appointed judge,

43:33

that's correct. Let's turn to your

43:35

reporter notebooks now. What are you

43:37

watching? for this week coming up?

43:39

What's in your notebook? Zoe, you

43:41

go first. Sure. Well, as we

43:43

noted, next week marks 100 days

43:45

of Donald Trump's second administration, and

43:47

he is coming back to Michigan

43:49

on Tuesday. We know that this

43:51

president, perhaps, is a little superstitious

43:53

from some reporting in all three

43:56

of his presidential campaigns in 1620.

43:58

and 24 he actually ended his

44:00

campaigns with a rally in Michigan

44:02

the night before the election. And

44:04

so he will be basically celebrating

44:06

with a rally on Tuesday. He'll

44:08

be in Macomb County, the infamous

44:10

Macomb County, home of the Reagan

44:12

Democrats. And we'll see what he

44:14

has to say. All right, President

44:16

Trump, back to Michigan, Josh Wingrove.

44:18

How about you? A couple quick

44:21

things. He has a deadline under

44:23

the radar tariff deadline next week

44:25

and whether what to decide what

44:27

to do with auto parts. Industries

44:29

watching that one very closely. The

44:31

auto industry is really... at the

44:33

center of all this tariff stuff.

44:35

We've got the Canadian election. I

44:37

was asked, the producers to talk

44:39

about this, you know, let's see.

44:41

On Monday, Mark Kearney, the liberal

44:43

incumbent who took over as party

44:46

leader from Trudeau, is the polling

44:48

favorite and in part because of

44:50

Donald Trump and his, you know,

44:52

talk about annexation of the country.

44:54

So it looks like voters will

44:56

hand either strong-manned, if not a

44:58

majority, to Kearney. The Liberal Party

45:00

of Canada, their fortunes have completely

45:02

reversed and severedred. close ties between

45:04

the United States and Canada. He

45:06

says the old relationship is over.

45:08

Arthur, what about you? Congress will

45:11

be back next week, so there's

45:13

this headset stuff we talked about,

45:15

but also very consequential budget negotiations

45:17

and Donald Trump's tax cut agenda

45:19

and potential Medicaid cut agenda, and

45:21

that will be coming. all to

45:23

ahead in the next month. Well,

45:25

I've got one before we go.

45:27

We've talked before on this program

45:29

about the risk, in fact, the

45:31

fact of open corruption in this

45:33

Trump administration. There's a new story

45:35

that I think everyone should follow.

45:38

This week, the team at the

45:40

Washington Post. reported that the team

45:42

that runs the Trump meme coin

45:44

announced a contest. The top 220

45:46

holders of the Trump meme coin

45:48

will get a quote night to

45:50

remember with Donald Trump at his

45:52

golf club outside of DC. Now

45:54

what happened? 27 top buyers poured

45:56

about $100 million into the Trump

45:58

meme coin has a close affiliation.

46:00

with the Trump organization and Donald

46:03

Trump himself. He profits directly from

46:05

the money that goes into the

46:07

Trump meme coin. So $100 million,

46:09

by the way, the top 25

46:11

owners of Trump meme coin, according

46:13

to the team that runs it,

46:15

a private tour of the White

46:17

House. Your White House, in exchange

46:19

for putting money in Donald Trump's

46:21

pocket. Wish you look, Todd. I

46:23

want to thank our guest. That

46:25

was Arthur Delaney. F. Hoffpose, Zoe

46:28

Clark from Michigan Public. Josh Wingrove

46:30

from Bloomberg News. We'll be right

46:32

back with the global edition of

46:34

the news roundup. Stay with us.

46:36

There's more after this short break.

46:40

At Planet Money will take you

46:42

from a race to make rum

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in the Caribbean. Our rum from

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a quality standpoint is the best

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in the world. To the labs,

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dreaming up the most advanced microchips.

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It's very rare for people to

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go inside. To the back rooms

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of New York's diamond district. What

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are you looking for the stupid

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guy here? The old smart, don't

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worry about. Planet Money from NPR.

47:06

We go to the story and

47:09

take you along with us. Wherever

47:11

you get your podcasts. Avvregev is

47:13

the co-founder of the Human Cell

47:15

Atlas. It's a huge leap in

47:17

understanding how human cells work. She

47:20

says it's like upgrading from a

47:22

15th century map of the world

47:24

to Google Maps. If I want

47:26

to develop a medicine that would

47:29

only go to the place where

47:31

something is broken, I need to

47:33

know how to get there. The

47:35

new wave of biotechnology that's on

47:37

the TED Radio Hour podcast from

47:40

NPR. Let's turn out to the

47:42

Global Edition of the News Roundup.

47:44

Our guest today. Joyce Karam, senior

47:46

news editor at All Monitor and

47:49

author of the China Middle East

47:51

newsletter. Hi Joyce. Hi Todd, great

47:53

to be here. Great to have

47:55

you. Indira Lachman, honest here, ideas

47:57

and opinion editor at US News

48:00

and World Report. Indira, great to

48:02

see you. Great to see you

48:04

as always. And also with us

48:06

in the studio, Robbie grammar, national

48:09

security reporter at Politico, and the

48:11

lead author of the Politico newsletter,

48:13

Nat Sec Daily. Nat Sec Daily.

48:15

Hi, Robbie. Thanks for having me.

48:17

In Vatican City, tributes are pouring

48:20

in from around the world for

48:22

Pope Francis. The pontiff passed away

48:24

on Monday at the age of

48:26

88 after a lengthy illness. The

48:29

funeral will be held on Saturday

48:31

in St. Peter's. We'll have more

48:33

on that later in the program.

48:35

But let's start with the latest...

48:37

from Ukraine. This week there have

48:40

been major escalations in the war

48:42

as the United States has tried

48:44

to get each party to agree

48:46

to a US-sponsored peace deal, one

48:49

which favors Russia, today a senior

48:51

Russian military official was killed in

48:53

a car explosion just east of

48:55

Moscow. Russia's investigative committee said the

48:57

explosion was caused by a homemade

49:00

explosive device. Also this morning, U.S.

49:02

special envoy to the Middle East

49:04

Steve Wytkov sat down with Vladimir

49:06

Putin in Moscow. This comes after

49:08

Russia bombed Keith Thursday morning in

49:11

the deadliest attack on Ukraine. since

49:13

last summer. Robbie, let's start with

49:15

the explosion in the east side

49:17

of Moscow that I mentioned this

49:20

morning. Who was the general who

49:22

was killed? Yeah, this was Lieutenant

49:24

General Yarasov Moskalik, who was on

49:26

the, a senior commander on the

49:28

general staff of the Russian Armed

49:31

Forces. And his killing is significant.

49:33

Ukraine has not claimed responsibility yet,

49:35

but it mirrors other Ukrainian attacks

49:37

targeted bombings to target top Russian

49:40

military commanders in the past. And

49:42

it's significant both because it comes

49:44

at the same time that Wytkov

49:46

is in Moscow, sitting down for

49:48

these talks with Putin, but also

49:51

because it comes right after these

49:53

deadly attacks on Kiev, you mentioned.

49:55

And Ukraine's top spy chief after

49:57

the attacks on Kiev vowed vengeance.

50:00

So this seems like the opening

50:02

shot in this new round of

50:04

tit for tap vengeance. Another significance

50:06

here is General Moskulek was involved

50:08

in some previous peace talks in

50:11

Ukraine. 2015 that failed the so-called

50:13

Normandy peace talks and so in

50:15

a way he was a symbol

50:17

in the Ukrainian eyes of this

50:20

this Russian double dealing of talking

50:22

about peace in 2015 and launching

50:24

this full-scale invasion years later. So

50:26

a car bomb assassination in Moscow

50:28

while the US envoy, the White

50:31

House envoy, is in Moscow speaking

50:33

with Vladimir Putin about some kind

50:35

of peace deal. Joyce... Whitkov is

50:37

sitting down with Vladimir Putin as

50:40

we mentioned today. What are you

50:42

watching for from these talks? Well,

50:44

this is their fourth meeting, Todd,

50:46

but we still haven't seen the

50:48

Russians agree to even the initial

50:51

ceasefire proposed by President Donald Trump.

50:53

They don't want an unconditional ceasefire.

50:55

We're seeing mixed signals from the

50:57

administration this week. We've heard Trump

51:00

on Wednesday. I'll go out and

51:02

blame Zelenski. And then on Thursday.

51:04

he's going out and criticizing Putin.

51:06

For Woodcuff, this is a very

51:08

critical meeting. He needs to send

51:11

a direct message to the Russians

51:13

that there are two ways about

51:15

this. You either do. the ceasefire

51:17

or there's going to be escalation

51:20

from us, whether in the form

51:22

of sanctions, whether in the form

51:24

of banking restrictions, but this is

51:26

the indications that Trump gave from

51:28

the Oval Office on Thursday. He

51:31

did endear us so far at

51:33

least publicly, the major... parameters of

51:35

a peace deal and we'll talk

51:37

about this have been decidedly pro-Russian

51:40

right out of Vladimir Putin's wish

51:42

list for his invasion of Ukraine

51:44

which began in 2014 not three

51:46

years ago Crimea counts and accounts

51:48

for a lot so the threat

51:51

of escalation from Donald Trump sanctions

51:53

other methods as well is that

51:55

real do you expect that from

51:57

the White House is that what's

52:00

on offer today Look, what Donald

52:02

Trump has tried to do, of

52:04

course, as we all know, is

52:06

style himself as the best negotiator

52:08

in the world, the best dealmaker

52:11

in the world. So part of

52:13

this is that he thought he...

52:15

could get a deal done quickly.

52:17

of US foreign policy. And a

52:20

reversal of Trump's own policy from

52:22

2018 when he was last president

52:24

when they had a Crimea declaration

52:26

that basically said we're not going

52:28

to do that. So reversal of

52:31

his own policy. All of the

52:33

conditions he's given have been decidedly

52:35

in favor of. Putin, which is

52:37

why I think he's so surprised

52:39

that Russia is still fighting, obviously

52:42

trying to increase its boundaries and

52:44

increase the line of control. But

52:46

I do think that Steve Whitcough

52:48

plays a really important role in

52:51

this, if you'd like me to

52:53

talk a little about that. Yeah,

52:55

he's an incredibly old friend of

52:57

Donald Trump's. They go back decades.

52:59

He's another New York-based real estate

53:02

developer. He's not taking a salary

53:04

from the government. He's stuck by

53:06

Trump in 2020, after he lost

53:08

the election. He's a close friend

53:11

of the family. A lot of

53:13

people are saying he's playing kind

53:15

of the role that Jared Kushnerner

53:17

played in the first administration. family

53:19

person with a direct line into

53:22

the oval office and he is

53:24

not, he's like basically become grand

53:26

special envoy doing everything on his

53:28

own private jet. So we'll see

53:31

how far he can get on

53:33

this one. Well outside of the

53:35

negotiating room and the negotiating table

53:37

between trusted friends Steve Whitcough and

53:39

Vladimir Putin. Outside, as we mentioned,

53:42

Russia bombed Kiev starting at about

53:44

1am on Thursday, damaging and destroying

53:46

buildings in multiple neighborhoods. At least

53:48

12 people are dead, 90 injured.

53:51

It's Russia's deadliest attack on Kiev

53:53

since July. Ukrainian President Valdemir Zelenski

53:55

said nearly 70 missiles and 150

53:57

attacked drones targeted cities across the

53:59

country and the president cut short

54:02

his trip to South Africa to

54:04

return home. Now on Thursday, President

54:06

Trump posted to his true social

54:08

network Vladimir. Stop. All caps on

54:11

stop. The post also said the

54:13

Russian strikes were quote not necessary

54:15

and very bad timing says the

54:17

president. What effect does a deadly

54:19

attack like this have on? the

54:22

morale in Ukraine, Kiev in particular,

54:24

and Ukrainian resolve. Yeah, I mean,

54:26

it serves as a very grim

54:28

and deadly taunt by Putin that

54:31

Ukraine, your back is against the

54:33

wall. Trump is open to these

54:35

negotiations where it sounds like this

54:37

peace deal is very favorable to

54:39

my side. And in the midst

54:42

of this, I can target the

54:44

heart. of your capital in the

54:46

midst of this when we're talking

54:48

about things like ceasefire and winding

54:51

down the war and face no

54:53

consequences at least as of yet

54:55

besides one mean truth social post

54:57

from the US president. Here was

54:59

the vice president JD Vance earlier

55:02

this week laying out some of

55:04

the parameters of the peace deal

55:06

on offer that Indira mentioned. We've

55:08

issued a very explicit proposal to

55:11

both the Russians and the Ukrainians

55:13

and it's time for them to

55:15

either say yes or for the

55:17

United States to walk away from

55:19

this process. We've engaged in an

55:22

extraordinary amount of diplomacy of on-the-ground

55:24

work. We've really tried to understand

55:26

things from the perspective of both

55:28

the Ukrainians and the Russians. What

55:31

do Ukrainians care the most about?

55:33

And I think that we've put

55:35

together a very fair proposal. Joyce,

55:37

that's not how Ukraine sees it.

55:39

In the U.S. proposal, as Indira

55:42

mentioned, Russia would get Crimea with

55:44

U.S. recognition. They would get the

55:46

Don Bass, the 8... 18% or

55:48

slightly less, it's 18% in total

55:51

that Russia now possesses of Ukrainian

55:53

territory, they would get the four

55:55

provinces of the Donbas in the

55:57

East, they would get the territory

55:59

they conquered when Putin invaded, and

56:02

they would in writing pledge never

56:04

to join NATO. Exactly. I mean,

56:06

this is the Trump administration, at

56:08

least for Europe, for Russia, as

56:10

setting a precedent. This is Crimea,

56:13

as you know, was... is an

56:15

occupied annex territory in 2014 taken

56:17

by Russia by force. So by

56:19

the Trump administration giving that out

56:22

just at the outset is something

56:24

that's an unstarter for the Ukrainians.

56:26

Zilinsky said they're willing to negotiate

56:28

this stuff after a ceasefire, but

56:30

not before. And I would just

56:33

note this is not the first

56:35

time we see the Trump administration

56:37

take this, this route. And the

56:39

first Trump term, they recognize too.

56:42

occupied territories. One was the Golden

56:44

Heights that belonged to Syria. They

56:46

recognized it as Israeli territory. The

56:48

second was the Western Sahara that's

56:50

disputed between Algeria and Morocco, and

56:53

they recognized it as Moroccan territory.

56:55

But this is just a non-starter

56:57

for the Ukrainians, what they're asking

56:59

for. Let's just come to the

57:02

table, agree on a ceasefire, and

57:04

then discuss everything else. Donald Trump

57:06

was also asked by reporter this

57:08

week, what concessions Russia? is being

57:10

asked to make and his answer

57:13

is that the concession is that

57:15

Russia doesn't take over your entire

57:17

country. Isn't that how protection rackets

57:19

work? Honestly, it's also the premise

57:22

is not valid because Russia is

57:24

actually planning a spring offensive as

57:26

the U.S. is trying to negotiate.

57:28

So I don't think that they've

57:30

actually given up on expanding their

57:33

territorial control of Ukraine. Yeah, and

57:35

I'll just note that in the

57:37

midst of all this Ukraine, despite

57:39

everything going against it, is still

57:42

holding the front lines against Russia.

57:44

So it's not like, you know,

57:46

Russia is holding back here, is

57:48

pulling its punches as it waits

57:50

for these seas fires to happen.

57:53

Its army is just too weak

57:55

to actually overrun the Ukrainians at

57:57

this point. I'm interested in hearing

57:59

from the panel, and dear, you

58:02

first, Putin's attack on Kiev, this

58:04

brazen attack, while peace negotiations are

58:06

going on. Is it meant to

58:08

make the United States desperate for

58:10

a deal? That can note violence

58:13

that the United States desperately wants

58:15

to get is it meant to

58:17

as the Polish president last week

58:19

said Mr. President Vladimir Putin is

58:22

mocking you. I hope you get

58:24

it What's the subtext of that

58:26

attack in your view? Look I

58:28

think Vladimir Putin is going to

58:30

do Vladimir Putin He's going to

58:33

do what is most important to

58:35

him and his strategic goals and

58:37

interests which are essentially seizing as

58:39

much of Ukraine as he possibly

58:42

can I don't think he really

58:44

cares what what what Trump has

58:46

to say about it. While on

58:48

the one hand he must be

58:50

delighted that Trump's conditions for a

58:53

peace deal are essentially everything that

58:55

that Russia has asked for. I

58:57

don't think he sees the need

58:59

to be conciliatory in any way.

59:02

He wants to essentially get the

59:04

best possible front lines that he

59:06

can if they're going to solidify

59:08

a deal based on that and

59:10

I just don't think he really

59:13

cares and in a way the

59:15

true social post the post. deal

59:17

Vladimir in all capital stop was

59:19

almost I think they're probably laughing

59:22

about it in the Kremlin to

59:24

be quite frank because it seems

59:26

desperate and as much as Trump

59:28

may be saying well we are

59:30

ready to walk out of talks

59:33

and give up on this if

59:35

it doesn't work I don't think

59:37

Vladimir Putin really cares. Robbie what

59:39

incentive structure is there in this

59:41

deal or do we know? that

59:44

discourages Russian aggression in the future.

59:46

The major concern inside Ukraine, and

59:48

there are many, is that you

59:50

can have a ceasefire deal this

59:53

afternoon if you want, it will

59:55

allow Vladimir Putin to... regroup, rearm,

59:57

and continue his aggression at a

59:59

later date. Are the Ukrainians right

1:00:01

to be worried about that? Is

1:00:04

there anything on offer that would

1:00:06

discourage that? Yeah, I mean, you're

1:00:08

absolutely right. That is the crux

1:00:10

of the criticism here is, you

1:00:13

know, let's say that Putin and

1:00:15

Zelenski agree to a Trump broker,

1:00:17

ceasefire tomorrow, what stops Putin from

1:00:19

just using that time to rearm,

1:00:21

regroup, and launch the invasion in

1:00:24

a few years? And this is

1:00:26

what the last administration, a lot

1:00:28

of NATO allies, were pushing. We

1:00:30

need to have some sort of

1:00:33

credible deterrent effect to stop Russia

1:00:35

from launching the invasion the invasion

1:00:37

in the future. Right now, there

1:00:39

isn't any sign of that in

1:00:41

this peace deal as it. as

1:00:44

it stands, that the U.S. deals

1:00:46

makes vague reference to a peacekeeping

1:00:48

force, potentially with Europeans, but makes

1:00:50

no mention of U.S. military presence

1:00:53

here. And frankly, the only thing

1:00:55

that Russia respects in terms of

1:00:57

military might is the United States.

1:00:59

It's not France, it's not Germany.

1:01:01

You know, NATO is a formidable

1:01:04

foe, but without the United States

1:01:06

backing, without US skin in the

1:01:08

game, it's probably not going to

1:01:10

be enough for Russia to actually

1:01:13

stop and take a pause and

1:01:15

not reconstitute and reinvey it in

1:01:17

a few years. And so that's

1:01:19

the main criticism and the crux

1:01:21

of this, is this isn't a

1:01:24

peace deal. This is a pause

1:01:26

for a worst invasion in the

1:01:28

future. Without deterrence choice. Absolutely, and

1:01:30

this is a president who came

1:01:33

to power saying, I will end

1:01:35

this in 24 hours, just give

1:01:37

me 24 hours. It's been almost

1:01:39

100 days. Russia already got a

1:01:41

lot of bounties from the US,

1:01:44

you know, discussions about reopening embassies,

1:01:46

exchanging ambassadors, talks at the highest

1:01:48

level with Putin happening now in

1:01:50

Russia. So it's not a good

1:01:53

look for the administration, and that's

1:01:55

why you're hearing now. Oh, okay,

1:01:57

we're running out of patience. We

1:01:59

might just pull out of the

1:02:01

talk. But that's not a strategy.

1:02:04

We will have much more news,

1:02:06

much more to talk about, about

1:02:08

Russia's war in Ukraine in further

1:02:10

shows. Next week, here on the

1:02:13

roundup, we will talk about it

1:02:15

more. Let's leave the war in

1:02:17

the Mayhemicide for a moment and

1:02:19

contemplate the life of Pope Francis

1:02:21

and the legacy of the Pope

1:02:24

who passed away this week after

1:02:26

a lengthy illness. Now several heads

1:02:28

of state are expected for the

1:02:30

funeral on Saturday in St. Peter's

1:02:33

Square, but the public viewing is

1:02:35

largely for ordinary Catholics to express

1:02:37

their grief. Here's one woman who

1:02:39

waited in line to see the

1:02:41

Pope's body this week. He was

1:02:44

a leader who really loved. and

1:02:46

I think he he wanted to

1:02:48

spread that message of just love

1:02:50

and confession and walking in there

1:02:53

it was so silent but you

1:02:55

could feel how much people really

1:02:57

cared about him. Now Indira Pope

1:02:59

Francis was a beloved and respected

1:03:01

figure but he also generated plenty

1:03:04

of controversy for the shift from

1:03:06

a more conservative tone in the

1:03:08

church from his two immediate predecessors.

1:03:10

How will Pope Francis be remembered

1:03:12

in your estimation? Such a great

1:03:15

question, and I can't wait to

1:03:17

read all the wonderful biographies that

1:03:19

I'm sure are being scribbled out

1:03:21

and finished as we speak. Look,

1:03:24

you know. a complicated and incredibly

1:03:26

interesting pontificant that he had papacy.

1:03:28

And I will say that, you

1:03:30

know, while on the one hand

1:03:32

he's famous for having, you know,

1:03:35

been so close to the poor,

1:03:37

he's the only Pope who's ever

1:03:39

taken the name Francis for Francis

1:03:41

of Assisi, who was, you know,

1:03:44

famously very humble, close to the

1:03:46

earth, close to animals. He, you

1:03:48

know, had this incredible incical in

1:03:50

which he essentially said... The scientists

1:03:52

have agreed. Climate change is real.

1:03:55

It's caused by burning fossil fuels.

1:03:57

We need to do something about

1:03:59

it. It's incumbent on us because

1:04:01

of a connection between God and

1:04:04

humanity and the Earth. So he

1:04:06

was very strong on helping the

1:04:08

poor, migrants, defending the environment, defending

1:04:10

all sorts of things that you

1:04:12

would think of as liberal causes,

1:04:15

quote unquote. or at least have

1:04:17

been associated by some as liberal

1:04:19

causes. At the same time, when

1:04:21

you look at church teachings, he

1:04:24

maintained the church teaching on abortion,

1:04:26

that that is completely wrong. He

1:04:28

strengthened the church teaching on the

1:04:30

death penalty, saying it should be

1:04:32

always impermissible in all cases. He

1:04:35

did not agree with the ordination

1:04:37

of women as priests. He kept

1:04:39

celibacy for priests. conservative Catholic factions

1:04:41

feared when he was first selected.

1:04:44

Well, I mean, again, you know,

1:04:46

what do you consider liberal? Many

1:04:48

of the causes he espoused were

1:04:50

deeply, you know, passionately, like he

1:04:52

criticized literally the day before he

1:04:55

died in his last address, his

1:04:57

last public words. He actually spoke

1:04:59

up in defense of migrants, and

1:05:01

essentially it was a slap on

1:05:04

the wrist to the Trump administration

1:05:06

and J.D. Vance, who was right

1:05:08

there. But one really important thing

1:05:10

about gays. He, although he did

1:05:12

not change church church tea. about

1:05:15

homosexuality as being something like fundamentally

1:05:17

disordered or whatever term Catholicism uses,

1:05:19

he did say who am I

1:05:21

to judge? He blessed, you know,

1:05:24

essentially... blessings for unions. The Vatican

1:05:26

reversed itself under him and said

1:05:28

transgender people could be baptized and

1:05:30

serve in weddings and as godparents.

1:05:32

So, you know, there were a

1:05:35

lot of movements that he made.

1:05:37

One of my favorite moments of

1:05:39

this week actually came in an

1:05:41

editorial cartoon that I saw from

1:05:44

the Times of London that had

1:05:46

the pearly gates blaring with angels

1:05:48

horns wide open for Pope Francis

1:05:50

being welcomed by St. Peter. and

1:05:52

Francis was entering but through the

1:05:55

doormarked service entrance. Very, very, by

1:05:57

the way, it goes to the

1:05:59

fact that he's going to be

1:06:01

the first Pope and how long

1:06:04

to not be buried in St.

1:06:06

Peter's in the Vatican. He wants

1:06:08

to be buried in a much

1:06:10

more modest St. Mary major church.

1:06:12

Well, the Pope made his voice

1:06:15

heard on conflicts across the globe,

1:06:17

including the war between Israel and

1:06:19

Hamas in Gaza. From October of

1:06:21

2023, Pope Francis made daily phone

1:06:24

calls. I did not know this,

1:06:26

and it was reported, but I

1:06:28

missed it. Daily phone calls to

1:06:30

Gaza's only Catholic parish to offer

1:06:32

support and prayers. And in his

1:06:35

final address on Easter Sunday, from

1:06:37

the balcony of St. Peter's Basilica,

1:06:39

an aid read out of benediction

1:06:41

in which the Pope condemned the,

1:06:43

quote, deplorable humanitarian situation caused by

1:06:46

Israel's onslaught in Gaza. Joyce, how

1:06:48

unusual was the Pope's stance in

1:06:50

this conflict and his devotion to

1:06:52

the Christians and the people suffering

1:06:55

there? Very unusual, and I would

1:06:57

say his legacy as a whole

1:06:59

in the Middle East will be

1:07:01

very well remembered. This is a

1:07:03

Pope who was the first to

1:07:06

visit the Arab Peninsula. He went

1:07:08

to the UAE, he went to

1:07:10

Iraq, he went to Bahrain. He

1:07:12

was a voice for the voiceless

1:07:15

in Gaza. He brought Arab Christians,

1:07:17

Catholic Christians mostly in the Arab

1:07:19

world, from the periphery. As you

1:07:21

mentioned, Todd, the calls to the

1:07:23

Gaza, the Gaza church, the Holy

1:07:26

Family Church in Gaza. Those happened

1:07:28

every day, even when he was

1:07:30

sick. They didn't last 15 minutes

1:07:32

or 10 minutes, but he made

1:07:35

sure to call. And for these

1:07:37

people who, you know... They think

1:07:39

they're forgotten. It helped them a

1:07:41

lot. Of course, his book last

1:07:43

year where he mentioned that we

1:07:46

need to re-examine Israeli behavior in

1:07:48

the war and see if it

1:07:50

constituted genocide that angered the Israelis.

1:07:52

As we saw today, Benjamin Netanyahu

1:07:55

waited three days. before issuing a

1:07:57

condolence about the Pope. We'll see

1:07:59

what the Vatican will do about

1:08:01

France's successor, but this was an

1:08:03

extraordinary guy when it came to

1:08:06

the Middle East and conflict. Was

1:08:08

it widely known? in Gaza that

1:08:10

the Pope made these daily phone

1:08:12

calls to the church? Did people

1:08:15

know about that? Did he know

1:08:17

that he was calling and thinking

1:08:19

about them and praying with them

1:08:21

and like daily from the Pope?

1:08:23

The videos were coming out, yes,

1:08:26

and they were just, there's a

1:08:28

lot of humility and just that

1:08:30

they're... You could connect with them.

1:08:32

I mean, they asked them, what

1:08:35

did you have for dinner, fried

1:08:37

chicken? I ate this, I ate

1:08:39

that, but it was just his

1:08:41

humility that came across to take

1:08:43

time to talk to the people

1:08:46

of Gaza. There's no avoiding politics

1:08:48

swirling around the death of a

1:08:50

Pope, because in addition to being

1:08:52

the archbishop of Rome and the

1:08:55

holy prefect, he is also a...

1:08:57

ahead of state, and Robbie you

1:08:59

had some little bit of news

1:09:01

from around the fringes of the

1:09:03

funeral. Yeah, yeah, I mean, foreign

1:09:06

leaders from around the world are

1:09:08

coming to the Vatican for his

1:09:10

burial, but one thing that we're

1:09:12

closely watching is the Ukrainians have

1:09:15

been pushing for Ukrainian president Vladimir

1:09:17

Zelenski to meet with Trump on

1:09:19

the sidelines of that funeral because

1:09:21

Trump's also traveling there for it.

1:09:23

So far the administration hasn't given

1:09:26

an indication of whether they'll Valenski

1:09:28

and Trump can bury the hatchet

1:09:30

here as they try to pursue

1:09:32

these peace talks. Now let's turn

1:09:35

back now to the latest out

1:09:37

of Gaza Joyce Karam just gave

1:09:39

us an update on Pope Francis'

1:09:41

devotion. to the dispossessed and the

1:09:43

suffering in that war, especially at

1:09:46

one Catholic church in Gaza, but

1:09:48

not only there. Now, people on

1:09:50

the ground say conditions have reached

1:09:52

a desperate new low in Gaza

1:09:55

as the nearly two-month-long Israeli blockade

1:09:57

keeps food, medicine, and fuel. out

1:09:59

of the territory. Dozens more Palestinians

1:10:01

were killed on Tuesday alone as

1:10:03

relentless Israeli airstrikes attacks continue. This

1:10:06

week, Gazans faced a deadly wave

1:10:08

of strikes larger than in previous

1:10:10

weeks. It also saw the end

1:10:12

of a UN-backed polio vaccination program

1:10:14

in northern Gaza. Indira, what do

1:10:17

we know? Right, well as you

1:10:19

say this blockade, the Israeli blockade

1:10:21

of Gaza is unprecedented. It's now

1:10:23

entering its eighth week, so it's

1:10:26

the longest continuous total siege that

1:10:28

the Gaza Strip has faced in

1:10:30

this 18-month war. It has been

1:10:32

described by the foreign secretaries of

1:10:34

the European Union and the United

1:10:37

Nations as conditions unmatched in severity

1:10:39

since the beginning of the war,

1:10:41

their new evacuation orders, renewed bombing.

1:10:43

of civilian infrastructure such as hospitals,

1:10:46

food has run out, fuel for

1:10:48

generators and medical supplies has run

1:10:50

out, and goods at markets are

1:10:52

now 1,400 percent. above the ceasefire

1:10:54

prices. So very bad conditions, as

1:10:57

you say, the polio campaign also

1:10:59

has had to be called off,

1:11:01

which is terrible because, you know,

1:11:03

polio was flaring back up. 60,000

1:11:06

children in the strip have malnutrition

1:11:08

symptoms according to the Gaza Health

1:11:10

Ministry. So the health care system

1:11:12

apparently is facing collapse. What I

1:11:14

think is really interesting is these

1:11:17

European foreign ministers released. a statement

1:11:19

that was basically aimed at Israel,

1:11:21

you know, saying enough, the conditions

1:11:23

are terrible, and at the same

1:11:26

time the Palestinian Authority leader, Mahmoud

1:11:28

Abbas, in Ramallah, so not in

1:11:30

the Gaza Strip, I think put

1:11:32

out, Joyce can correct me if

1:11:34

I'm wrong, but I think he

1:11:37

put out the strongest message he

1:11:39

has given so far. Here's a

1:11:41

boss. Every day there are hundreds

1:11:43

of deaths. Why? They don't want

1:11:46

to hand over the American hostage.

1:11:48

You sons of dogs, hand over

1:11:50

what you have and get us

1:11:52

out of this. Don't give Israel

1:11:54

an excuse to continue. Don't give

1:11:57

them an excuse. Joy, strong words

1:11:59

there from... Mahmoud Abbas targeted at

1:12:01

Hamas released the hostages. The harshest

1:12:03

criticism we've seen yet from Abbas

1:12:06

against Hamas since the war started,

1:12:08

but you have to remember this

1:12:10

is an 89-year-old president in power.

1:12:12

He's been weakened a lot by

1:12:14

Hamas and the West Bank, so

1:12:17

that's one layer of it. The

1:12:19

other layer is what's happening on

1:12:21

the outside. You have an Arab

1:12:23

plan on the table. You have

1:12:26

talks ongoing... with the Trump administration

1:12:28

that perhaps you need to embrace

1:12:30

Abbas, perhaps the only way forward

1:12:32

is for the Palestinian authority to

1:12:34

return. to Gaza. Is that the

1:12:37

U.S. position now? The Arabs are

1:12:39

actually trying to leverage the U.S.

1:12:41

position in that direction. We know

1:12:43

that President Trump is heading to

1:12:46

Saudi Arabia on May 13 to

1:12:48

cut out to the UAE. So

1:12:50

this is where Abbas falls in.

1:12:52

I would also add on Thursday

1:12:54

for the first time the PLO

1:12:57

voted to appoint a vice president.

1:12:59

to Abbas. This is a guy

1:13:01

who hasn't called for election and

1:13:03

over a decade. So this is

1:13:06

also important in what comes next

1:13:08

in Gaza. Gang, I want to

1:13:10

stay in Gaza for just a

1:13:12

little bit. We mentioned new investigations

1:13:14

around Israeli military forces and aid

1:13:17

workers. An investigation from the Israeli

1:13:19

news outlet Haarets found that the

1:13:21

Israeli military forces fired indiscriminately on

1:13:23

aid workers back in March. For

1:13:25

more than three minutes, Robbie, what

1:13:28

did we learn from this investigation?

1:13:30

I mean, this is another damning

1:13:32

report that points to the fact

1:13:34

that the IDFs operations in Gaza

1:13:37

have indiscriminately targeted civilians, but furthermore

1:13:39

also targeted the aid workers and

1:13:41

the humanitarian workers trying to respond

1:13:43

to this crisis. The IDFs has

1:13:45

responded and said they were investigating

1:13:48

and looking into this after initially.

1:13:50

denying these reports. But it's yet

1:13:52

another worrying sign that the IDF

1:13:54

isn't actually following international humanitarian law

1:13:57

as it escalates these operations in

1:13:59

Gaza. Joyce. And the Harris report

1:14:01

specifically, it's just, it's. It says

1:14:03

out there what the IDF was

1:14:05

saying were lies. Because they have

1:14:08

the New York Times footage that

1:14:10

initially the IDF said, oh well,

1:14:12

the ambulances did not have their

1:14:14

lights on. But we see from

1:14:17

the footage that they actually did.

1:14:19

And then they said, oh, well,

1:14:21

it was not indiscriminate shooting at

1:14:23

the. at the workers, but then

1:14:25

we see also from the Harris

1:14:28

report that they fired continuously at

1:14:30

the vehicles for over three minutes.

1:14:32

In a rare, very rare occasion

1:14:34

in this world, we see the

1:14:37

Israeli military coming out and acknowledging

1:14:39

mistakes in this instance. transferred one

1:14:41

guy for further investigation, possible dismissal.

1:14:43

We're not seeing the kind of

1:14:45

penalties we see usually in conflict

1:14:48

zone, but this is different. This

1:14:50

is new, as Robbie said. This

1:14:52

is exposing, putting some light on

1:14:54

these violations in the war in

1:14:57

Gaza. Drawing back from the conflict

1:14:59

on the ground in Gaza, always

1:15:01

looming in the background, the United

1:15:03

States and Iran. and we've heard

1:15:05

reports this week that the Trump

1:15:08

administration is pursuing nuclear talks with

1:15:10

the government of Iran that those

1:15:12

talks have been informal but also

1:15:14

ongoing. Robbie what do we know

1:15:17

when asked if he'd be willing

1:15:19

to meet with Iran's president or

1:15:21

Supreme leader Donald Trump said sure.

1:15:23

That's not usually something you would

1:15:25

hear from a president, but that's

1:15:28

okay if it leads to something

1:15:30

productive, I guess. What do we

1:15:32

know about these talks? And what

1:15:34

do we know about where they

1:15:37

could head? Well, Indira was talking

1:15:39

about Steve Whitcough, Trump's envoy, who's

1:15:41

meeting with Putin right now. He's

1:15:43

Trump's Middle East envoy. He's got

1:15:45

a lot on his plate. more

1:15:48

than one man can handle. So

1:15:50

in addition to having to solve

1:15:52

the Russia Ukraine talks, he also

1:15:54

has to lead these around nuclear

1:15:57

talks. And so these talks are

1:15:59

ongoing. Right now, Wytkov is leading

1:16:01

them. It could lead to a

1:16:03

meeting between Trump and his Iranian

1:16:05

counterpart. Trump, as we know, loves

1:16:08

this type of grand, you know,

1:16:10

thematic personal diplomacy that he can

1:16:12

get in on to show that,

1:16:14

you know, he can personify the

1:16:17

art of the deal here. But

1:16:19

that's a long way. These talks

1:16:21

are ongoing. There's a lot of

1:16:23

pressure from the Israeli side, from

1:16:25

some really hawkish people in the

1:16:28

US that say, look, Iran is

1:16:30

weak right now. It's proxies like

1:16:32

Hamas and Hezbollah are all but

1:16:34

broken. Its air defenses are down

1:16:37

after some of these attacks between

1:16:39

Iran and Israel. If we're going

1:16:41

to strike Iran's nuclear facilities, now

1:16:43

is the moment. But there's pressure

1:16:45

on the other side saying... Do

1:16:48

we, does the United States really

1:16:50

need another military intervention in the

1:16:52

Middle East right now? Look at

1:16:54

what happened for the past two

1:16:56

decades and that's what they're balancing.

1:16:59

Indira Donald Trump alluded this week

1:17:01

and I'm paraphrasing, he basically said

1:17:03

there's no light between Benjamin Netanyahu

1:17:05

and me. We are the same

1:17:08

brain on this stuff and yet

1:17:10

as Robbie is pointing out, maybe

1:17:12

not when it comes to dealing

1:17:14

with Iran. What do you make

1:17:16

of the timing here? Look, I

1:17:19

do think that Steve Whitcough is

1:17:21

very busy, and if he can

1:17:23

make some breakthrough and talks with

1:17:25

Iran towards restoring a nuclear deal,

1:17:28

I think that would be great

1:17:30

if he could do that. I

1:17:32

do think that the Iranians came

1:17:34

away from it. The Iranian Foreign

1:17:36

Minister came away saying that Whitcough's

1:17:39

proposal was contradictory and confusing and

1:17:41

didn't make a lot of sense,

1:17:43

so it doesn't show that there's

1:17:45

actually... There may not be meat

1:17:48

on the bones. But for the

1:17:50

first time we are seeing daylight

1:17:52

between Washington and Jerusalem on Iran.

1:17:54

I mean, today in the time

1:17:56

interview, Trump said, yes, I did.

1:17:59

didn't stop Israel, but I made

1:18:01

them feel uncomfortable about striking Iran.

1:18:03

This is, I mean, this is

1:18:05

an administration that did not run

1:18:08

on a waging another war in

1:18:10

the Middle East. However, I would

1:18:12

point out that There is a

1:18:14

divide within the administration between the

1:18:16

more hawkish line, Marco Rubio, Mike

1:18:19

Walsh, and between the more the

1:18:21

softer line. We have here, you

1:18:23

know, J.D. Vance, Steve Woodcalfe. We

1:18:25

still don't know what the strategy.

1:18:28

is on Iran. Is the US

1:18:30

for 3% enrichment, as Whitcalf said,

1:18:32

or does it just want civilian

1:18:34

nuclear program? We don't know yet

1:18:36

technical talks on Saturday. As Politico

1:18:39

reported, there is a Michael Anton

1:18:41

will be headed to the talks.

1:18:43

So a lot still needs to

1:18:45

be hashed out. It will be

1:18:48

interesting in the end also if

1:18:50

a deal is ever reached or

1:18:52

ever proffered. How different is it

1:18:54

really? from the Iran nuclear deal

1:18:56

negotiated by President Obama and his

1:18:59

administration, one that was decried, lambasted,

1:19:01

ridiculed by Donald Trump, and irrigated

1:19:03

by Donald Trump. They got rid

1:19:05

of that deal. How different will

1:19:08

this deal be? We shall see

1:19:10

it as different at all. That's

1:19:12

a really good point, which is

1:19:14

that we are now further down

1:19:16

the road towards Iran being closer

1:19:19

to getting a nuclear weapon ever

1:19:21

since, you know... as you say,

1:19:23

ever since Trump pulled the United

1:19:25

States out of the deal. So

1:19:28

some people say that even if

1:19:30

we're to get a new nuclear

1:19:32

deal, it wouldn't be as good

1:19:34

as the JCPOA, which was the

1:19:36

original deal from the summer of

1:19:39

2015. Ah, JCPOA, an old classic,

1:19:41

and dear Alachronaut, bringing back the

1:19:43

acronyms. Bring it back the hits,

1:19:45

JCPOA. It'll have a different name

1:19:48

under President Trump, Trump, Trump, nuclear

1:19:50

deal. There will be much more

1:19:52

to come, much more to talk

1:19:54

about when it comes to the

1:19:56

United States, Iran, and Israel, of

1:19:59

course. For now, let's move over

1:20:01

to India, Northern India, in the

1:20:03

Himalaya. region because there's a crisis

1:20:05

in the Himalayan mountains this week.

1:20:08

An attack on Tuesday in a

1:20:10

scenic tourist resort in Indian administered

1:20:12

Kashmir that killed more than 26

1:20:14

people wounded at least 17. Here's

1:20:16

one eyewitness describing what happened. There

1:20:19

were six to seven men with

1:20:21

us. He shot all of them.

1:20:23

He fired at them from such

1:20:25

proximity that everything was over within

1:20:27

minutes. All this happened in front

1:20:30

of us. My husband's head was

1:20:32

on my lap and my children

1:20:34

were beside me, but I could

1:20:36

not do anything to save him.

1:20:39

The Indian government has not officially

1:20:41

identified any group behind the attack,

1:20:43

but it did announce retaliation against

1:20:45

Pakistan, which it said supported the

1:20:47

attacks that included downgrading diplomatic ties,

1:20:50

suspending trade, and the suspension of

1:20:52

an important water treaty. Pakistan has

1:20:54

denied any involvement in the attacks

1:20:56

and issued countermeasures. Now the last

1:20:59

major attack in this area was

1:21:01

in 2020, and violence has largely

1:21:03

declined in the Kashmir Valley on

1:21:05

Thursday. Pakistan's defensemen... called this. a

1:21:07

false flag operation. That's an act

1:21:10

committed with the intent of disguising

1:21:12

the actual source of responsibility, pinning

1:21:14

the blame on another party. Indira,

1:21:16

what's the fallout of this operation

1:21:19

on India-Pakistan relations right now? A

1:21:21

lot of bad fallout beyond, as

1:21:23

you say, the death of more

1:21:25

than two dozen people and, you

1:21:27

know, the shattering of this tourist

1:21:30

area, this region, Jamo and Kashmir

1:21:32

had just had, you know, tourism

1:21:34

coming back in the post-coved era.

1:21:36

the last major attack was a

1:21:39

bombing of the Jammu Kashmir State

1:21:41

Legislature in 2001 in which 35

1:21:43

people were killed. This was the

1:21:45

worst attack since then. India has

1:21:47

announced a whole set of retaliatory

1:21:50

steps, not surprisingly taking down the

1:21:52

staffing of the High Commission, which

1:21:54

is what they call their sort

1:21:56

of embassies with each other. cancellation

1:21:59

of visas, closing down of the

1:22:01

main land, border crossing, the Wagga

1:22:03

crossing, which was this. Incredible. I

1:22:05

was there in the late 90s

1:22:07

when that border crossing was opened

1:22:10

for the first time since India,

1:22:12

Pakistani, partition, and independence. In 1947,

1:22:14

it was an incredible thing 50

1:22:16

years later to open up this

1:22:19

border. They're closing down that border.

1:22:21

But perhaps the most significant of

1:22:23

all in my mind is India

1:22:25

saying it's going to suspend its

1:22:27

participation in the Indus water treaty.

1:22:30

Signed in 1996. That's right. Which has

1:22:32

never been abrogated, has never been

1:22:34

broken this treaty. And in... India

1:22:36

could theoretically, if they're gonna abrogate

1:22:39

this treaty, they could cut down

1:22:41

or entirely stop the flow of

1:22:43

water from these rivers into Pakistan.

1:22:46

I do think they would face

1:22:48

major international condemnation where they to

1:22:50

do that, because that would be

1:22:52

a huge step denying an entire

1:22:55

nation water. Now, Robbie, while this

1:22:57

attack occurred, the vice president, J.D.

1:22:59

Vance, was in India. He was

1:23:01

there on a personal trip, but

1:23:03

also met with... the Prime Minister.

1:23:06

What about the timing of the

1:23:08

attack while the vice president was

1:23:10

there and what about the results

1:23:13

of the meeting? Was there anything

1:23:15

of substance? Yeah, I mean, the

1:23:17

United States was incredibly swift to

1:23:20

condemn the attack, show their solidarity

1:23:22

with India, which is something that

1:23:24

really resonated with Indian officials. And

1:23:27

it's part of this new sort

1:23:29

of blossoming partnership between the United

1:23:31

States and India here, especially under

1:23:34

this administration. see India as this

1:23:36

main strategic partner to compete with

1:23:38

China on the world stage. India

1:23:40

has historically been non-aligned. It was

1:23:42

through the Cold War. It's in

1:23:44

their foreign policy DNA, but they

1:23:46

are also very wary of China

1:23:48

and the United States sees an

1:23:51

opportunity here. So whereas if J.D.

1:23:53

Vance goes to Europe, like he

1:23:55

did in February, castigates European allies,

1:23:57

makes everyone uncomfortable. In India, he

1:23:59

gave... bear hugs. Obviously there was

1:24:01

tension over trade and terrafores but

1:24:04

he announced the the initial start

1:24:06

of any of a potential US

1:24:08

trade deal with India to open

1:24:10

that up. So not like Greenland,

1:24:12

not like Munich, a different

1:24:15

reception. Exactly. Europe got a

1:24:17

lecture and India got a bear

1:24:19

hug. Even, but even I would say

1:24:21

with the bear hugs is just they

1:24:23

did reach a trade deal. India and

1:24:26

China are actually may get closer to

1:24:28

each other because of the Trump tariffs.

1:24:30

There's 27% on India now. Some have

1:24:32

been paused. So it's it's a double

1:24:35

strategy from the administration. We're going to

1:24:37

bear hug them here, but we're going

1:24:39

to slap on them a heavy economic

1:24:42

cost for investments and and speaking

1:24:44

of Bearhug, I mean, President Xi is

1:24:46

very busy convincing neighbors in Asia and

1:24:48

elsewhere that China is the reliable partner.

1:24:51

China is the one that has stability

1:24:53

and predictability and low tariffs. Make deals

1:24:55

with China, not with the isolationist United

1:24:58

States. That's his message. So we'll see

1:25:00

where that goes as J.D. Vance wrapped

1:25:02

up his visit. We have just a

1:25:05

couple of minutes left. I want to

1:25:07

get into the reporter's notebook for a

1:25:09

couple of quick minutes before we go

1:25:12

for each of you to tell us

1:25:14

what's in. your notebook, what you're looking

1:25:16

forward to in the week ahead, one

1:25:18

idea each, if you please. Indira, your

1:25:20

first. Well, I would be remiss if

1:25:23

I didn't mention that today is the

1:25:25

80th anniversary of the negotiations to create

1:25:27

the United Nations. And so we're going

1:25:30

to have in US News and World

1:25:32

Report an op-ed going out by one

1:25:34

of the former ambassadors to the UN,

1:25:36

writing about what value the UN still

1:25:39

plays in the world, even if the

1:25:41

Trump administration has certainly... tried to diminish

1:25:43

the U.S. role in that body or

1:25:45

engagement with that body, but what role

1:25:48

does it play? That's something I'm looking

1:25:50

at along with 100 days into

1:25:52

the administration, whereas foreign policy. 100 days

1:25:54

of Trump, 2.0, 80 years of the U.N.

1:25:56

Joyce Karam, how about you? Well, Jordan this

1:25:59

week, that's not... not ordinary. They've

1:26:01

outlawed the Muslim Brotherhood. They've banned

1:26:03

them. That's the largest political party

1:26:05

in Jordan. So we're watching how

1:26:08

this will unfold. What does that

1:26:10

mean? For Jordan, they're now in

1:26:12

the same camp, like UAE, Saudi

1:26:15

Arabia, and Egypt. But this has,

1:26:17

you know, regional implications when we

1:26:19

talk about the Muslim Brotherhood

1:26:21

offshoots and Gaza, West Bank, Syria,

1:26:23

and all of that. So this

1:26:25

is a story that we will

1:26:27

continue to watch. After reading

1:26:30

about the 80th birthday of

1:26:32

the UN, I'm watching North

1:26:34

Korea because it's quiet, too

1:26:36

quiet. You know, open source

1:26:38

information indicates that North Korea

1:26:41

is amassing the nuclear arsenal.

1:26:43

It might have anywhere from

1:26:45

30 to 50 nuclear warheads

1:26:47

already, and there's no international

1:26:49

visibility on this program. The

1:26:52

Pentagon in disarray, we've been covering

1:26:54

it, senior officials leaving the Pentagon,

1:26:56

the Defense Secretary under scandal after

1:26:58

scandal. Is this the time? when a

1:27:00

North Korea would want to test

1:27:02

the United States defense capabilities and resolve?

1:27:04

North Korea always seems to pick a

1:27:07

conspicuous time just when we're not

1:27:09

paying attention to rear its ugly head

1:27:11

and rattle the nuclear saber here. And

1:27:13

so it's exponentially expanding its nuclear

1:27:15

weapons program. There's been no progress whatsoever,

1:27:18

basically since the first Trump term when

1:27:20

he met leader Kim Jong-un. And

1:27:22

that is going to be a major

1:27:24

headache for this administration and future administrations

1:27:27

if no one tries to. I

1:27:29

want to thank Robbie Grammar, national

1:27:31

security reporter at Politico, lead author

1:27:33

of the Politico newsletter Nat Sec

1:27:35

daily, endear a locksman on ideas

1:27:37

and opinion editor, U.S. News and

1:27:39

World Report, and Joyce Karam, senior

1:27:41

news editor at All Monitor and

1:27:43

author of the China Middle East

1:27:45

newsletter. Great to have all of

1:27:47

you. Mike Kidd is our sound designer

1:27:50

and engineer with help this week

1:27:52

from Kellen Quigley. Chris Castano is

1:27:54

our digital editor. Maya Garg is

1:27:56

our senior managing producer. Alexander Boatee

1:27:58

is our senior supervisor. producer. Amanda

1:28:01

Williams is our special projects

1:28:03

editor, Elaine Humphreys is the

1:28:05

editor and producer of 1A

1:28:07

On Demand, and Barbangiano produces

1:28:09

our podcast. This program comes

1:28:11

to you from WAMU, part

1:28:13

of American University in Washington.

1:28:15

It's distributed by NPR. I'm

1:28:17

Todd Zwillick. Thanks for listening.

1:28:19

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