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1:00

Volume. What

1:14

is going on, everybody? How

1:16

are we doing? Today,

1:19

we do something that we don't usually do. We

1:21

don't have that many guests on this show. Might

1:23

change in the offseason, but we have Coach

1:25

Dickert, who is the head coach

1:27

of Wake Forest. but who

1:30

coached Cam Ward for two

1:32

years at Washington State. He was the

1:34

head coach at Washington State. Cam

1:36

Ward was there. Last year, he coached

1:38

John Mateer, who was one

1:41

of the biggest transfer

1:43

portal quarterbacks, left Washington State

1:45

to Oklahoma for seven

1:47

figures. He also was an

1:49

assistant coach for Wyoming Josh

1:51

Allen's senior year. So this guy's

1:53

seen a lot of quarterbacks. And

1:56

we will dive into everything

1:58

NIL, scouting reports. He

2:00

played Ashton Gentry this year. Gentry

2:03

went for about 250 on Washington State

2:05

and four touchdowns. So we'll talk to him

2:07

about that as well as some other

2:10

stuff. And we will also do a big

2:12

mailbag at John Middlecoff. At John Middlecoff

2:14

is the Instagram. Fire in those DMs and

2:16

get your questions. answered here on the

2:18

show, at John Middlecoff

2:20

Instagram. Fire in to those

2:23

DMs. Other than that, yeah,

2:25

fire it up for Coach Dickert

2:28

and some mailbag. And you guys know

2:30

the drill. Subscribe to the podcast.

2:32

Spotify, Apple, wherever you may listen, which

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guess maybe there's some other spot, but

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make sure you subscribe. YouTube as

2:40

well. You can do a little alert

2:42

button on the old tube to

2:45

make sure anytime we get a new

2:47

video up. that it alerts you.

2:49

So go subscribe to that. And yeah,

2:51

before we dive into Coach Dickert,

2:53

you know, I got to tell you

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tickets. Lowest prices guaranteed. Okay,

4:09

very, very excited to

4:11

be joined by the Wake

4:13

Forest head coach. For

4:15

several years, it came from Washington State

4:17

where he coached Cam Ward. We'll get into

4:19

it. He might be a quarterback guru

4:21

even though he's a defensive guy. But his

4:23

roots, wide receiver, offensive guy. Coach Dickert,

4:26

how are you doing? John, it's a pleasure

4:28

to be on. Obviously,

4:30

an exciting time to be here at Wake

4:32

Forest, just getting our program rolling. But it's

4:34

a crazy time of college football, and we're

4:36

in the best profession you could ever be

4:38

in. You know what's

4:40

crazy? I was looking. You go to a

4:42

coach's Wikipedia, and I watched some of the

4:44

interviews you did. I mean, like most people

4:46

coming up, you had what I saw you

4:48

say seven jobs in eight years or something

4:50

crazy. If I would have told you a

4:52

decade ago that – You'd be headed into

4:54

the 2025 season. You'd be coaching against Bill

4:56

Belichick. Would you have thought you were the

4:58

coach of the New York Jets? Well,

5:01

I was a big Packer fan. Chiefs had

5:03

growing up, so I would take that at the

5:06

least. My goal was to be

5:08

a math teacher and coach at Kimberly

5:10

High School. Right. So to be able to

5:12

swerve into college and to make this

5:14

climb of college football, you know, started at

5:16

Division three, John. I was the graduate

5:18

assistant that was painting the lines, that was

5:20

doing the video, that was half equipment

5:23

guy, you know, DB's coach and just

5:25

got a. to be around the right people

5:27

at the right time and work my way

5:29

all the way up. And I got

5:31

a unique perspective, right? There's a thin line

5:33

between playing at all these levels. And I

5:35

think sometimes the transfer portal shows that now,

5:37

but at a great place here in Wake

5:39

Forest and an amazing league in ACC

5:41

and we're ready to compete. Do

5:43

you, you know, you're a, it was fair

5:46

to call you a Midwest guy at heart,

5:48

coached in Dakotas for a long time and

5:50

then spent some time on the West coast

5:52

going to Wake Forest. Obviously it's an incredible

5:54

opportunity and a big, you know, big conference. Is

5:57

that just in the landscape of college

5:59

football now? You're at a program that, I

6:01

mean, I'm from Sacramento area. So the

6:03

Pac -12 grew up going to Memorial Stadium,

6:06

Cal Games, and that conference disappeared on your

6:08

watch when you were in it and

6:10

you were on the wrong side of that.

6:12

I mean, because I'm a

6:14

big believer sometimes in regions with

6:16

coaches, you know, so this is

6:18

a pretty big move, but giving

6:21

the opportunity was just something you

6:23

couldn't say no to. It's

6:25

one of those things, John, as you

6:27

look at the landscape of college football, you

6:29

know, for the West Coast to lose

6:31

a prestigious West Coast league. I

6:33

still think to this day it's still a

6:35

shame, right, for those kids, for those

6:37

fans, for regional rivalries, for everything that

6:39

comes with the pageantry and passion of college

6:42

football. You know, you kind of step

6:44

back to when this opportunity came up,

6:46

you start looking at the portal. You

6:48

start seeing the region of the Pacific Northwest

6:50

being harder, you know, to get some

6:52

kids to be able to come there.

6:54

And, you know, the 1AAs, the group of

6:56

fives, you know, 90 % of those leagues

6:58

are east coast on down the south

7:00

into Texas. to

7:02

be where the people are. And I think

7:04

that's just kind of what this came

7:07

into. And the more I studied about Wake

7:09

Forest, the more I discovered they're ready

7:11

to win, right? And I think the one

7:13

thing is that no one expects anything

7:15

about what we are. We're the winningest program

7:17

in P4 in the state of North

7:19

Carolina in the last 25 years. We're the

7:21

only one. in the state to win

7:23

an ACC championship and play in another, right?

7:25

So it has been done. I get to

7:27

stand on a program that has a great foundation

7:29

that's committed to winning. And in this region

7:31

of the country, North Carolina is a big part

7:34

of why we're here. Well,

7:36

I want to talk a little bit

7:38

about your background. I'm always fascinated by

7:40

you were a wide receiver in college,

7:42

correct? A

7:44

D3 wide receiver. I look like a

7:46

fullback now, John. It's a tough bridge.

7:48

But still, your background, the highest level

7:51

in which you played was offense. But

7:53

then your coaching career takes off on

7:55

defense. And you came up and

7:57

became a head coach. And you're a defensive

7:59

guy. But your offenses, I mean, at Washington

8:01

State, you had Cam Ward for a couple

8:03

years. I mean, have

8:05

been fantastic. Is that something, did

8:07

you ever look to pivot as your career was

8:09

taken off? Or did you just get so in deep?

8:11

It's like a relationship with a lady. It's like,

8:13

yeah, she just might be the one. And you just

8:15

let her rip. Well, I think,

8:17

unique story. Like, I played offense. My brother was

8:19

still on the team. So when I came

8:22

back to be a GA, our head coach was

8:24

like, you can't coach on the same side

8:26

as your brother. So I ended up thinking I

8:28

was just going to do the defensive thing

8:30

for a year. The greatest opportunity in my life

8:32

came as a graduate assistant under Craig Bull,

8:34

my greatest mentor at North Dakota State. And

8:36

I learned a system of defense, and

8:38

I just learned to fit my personality. I'm

8:40

a math guy. I see things a

8:42

certain way. You've got to be a problem

8:45

solver as a defensive coach. And I

8:47

just started to work my way up college

8:49

football, and I just enjoyed it. Offense

8:51

is almost too easy, John. But I know

8:53

when we – Took over the head job

8:55

at Washington State. You got to be able

8:57

to score points. The rules are engaged so

8:59

the offenses can go out there and win.

9:01

And quarterback is a premium position. And, you

9:03

know, I got to see Josh Allen's senior

9:05

year at the University of Wyoming when I

9:07

was there coaching. Obviously, Cam Ward for a

9:10

couple of years at Washington State followed that

9:12

up by, you know, really a Heisman campaign

9:14

of John Mateer there last year where we're

9:16

at. So we see some really high offenses.

9:18

And, you know, we get to put our

9:20

stamp on. a little bit different because I

9:22

think we have one of the best players

9:24

in the country here in DeMond Claiborne that

9:26

no one talks about at running back. So

9:28

we're going to be able to do it

9:30

again, just do it in a little bit

9:32

of different fashion. Well, I want to talk

9:34

about that. Fair

9:36

to say one of your big breaks was

9:38

getting hired at Wyoming, I think in 2017,

9:40

a safety coach. That means, you know, you're

9:43

going up against the offense, especially in training

9:45

camp. And you have Chris Mortensen and had

9:47

that tweet after the draft to basically keep

9:49

an eye on Josh Allen. So the hype

9:51

was there when you have the job. What

9:53

was that experience like, coaching your

9:55

DBs every day against Josh Allen, who

9:58

was probably letting 100 -mile -an -hour fastballs

10:00

just rip all over Laramie, Wyoming? It's

10:02

one of those things, especially in the

10:05

thin air. I walked out to the first

10:07

practice, and you hear the hype of

10:09

Josh and obviously what he did the year

10:11

before. He threw his first fieldside comeback

10:13

to the bottom of the numbers, and it

10:15

was unlike anything I've ever seen, a

10:17

frozen rope. There's no lob to it. And

10:19

the biggest thing, though, about why I

10:21

knew he was going to be successful is

10:23

that just the person he was. He

10:25

knew he was a first -round draft pick,

10:27

the way he carried himself in the locker

10:29

room, the leadership abilities Josh possessed. And

10:32

he didn't have the greatest season. And scouts

10:34

would come around and they'd ask, you know,

10:36

what do you think? I said, guys, take

10:38

him. Don't worry about his footwork. He's a

10:40

playmaker. He's a competitor. He has that it

10:42

factor in the locker room. And these guys

10:44

love to play for him. It

10:46

was different. And to see him go out

10:48

there and have tons of success in the NFL,

10:50

that's what it takes is more than just

10:52

a great arm. Because one of the knocks, like

10:54

you said, the stats weren't that great, but

10:56

you guys had just lost. right his number one

10:59

wide receiver i think a tight end and

11:01

maybe a running back or like a lot of

11:03

his skill guys from the previous year were

11:05

gone a couple of them played in the nfl

11:07

so i mean they were high -end guys it

11:09

was a pretty big loss yeah he lost

11:11

an nfl center tight end receiver tailback right so

11:13

He carried the shoulder of the load. We

11:15

were really good defensively, and I thought we played

11:17

well as a team. And we had seven

11:19

NFLers on our side of the football. So, I

11:21

mean, Josh was just a special, unique talent,

11:23

and it really showed what it takes to play

11:26

that position at a premium level. And, you

11:28

know, he knew he came back in the bowl

11:30

game. He was going to be a first -round

11:32

pick. A lot of kids wouldn't do that.

11:34

It just showed his kind of love and passion

11:36

to play this game. Did your experience being

11:38

around – impact the recruitment

11:40

because you were the full -time head coach

11:42

by the time you recruited cam ward correct

11:44

yep yeah and it was a unique

11:46

situation we knew we needed to make a

11:48

change cam was the the best obviously

11:50

portal target on the market we hired his

11:52

head coach as our offensive coordinator and

11:55

it was amazing just getting to know him

11:57

and his family and if To know

11:59

Cam is to know his mom and dad,

12:01

right? His mom is one of the

12:03

toughest recruiting moms I've ever been around. Miss

12:05

Patrice, she's great. Every time I saw

12:07

her, she would come up to me and

12:09

say, Coach, you better be coaching Cam

12:11

hard. You better not be allowing him to

12:13

just look past some of these mistakes.

12:15

And I think that's the foundation of the

12:17

way he grew up, his story, being

12:19

a wing T quarterback coming out of high

12:21

school, only having the one offer, and

12:23

then coming by us where we weren't established

12:25

enough on offense. We lost a lot,

12:28

right? So he carried the load. He's one

12:30

of the most competitive people I've ever

12:32

been around, John. I mean that, from the

12:34

way he carries himself to the way

12:36

he practices to the way he attacks things.

12:38

And I believe he grew up a

12:40

lot in his two years at Washington State.

12:42

Was that the first year of the

12:44

transfer portal when you landed him? Was that

12:46

technically not? first year, but it was

12:48

the first kind of big year. You know,

12:50

there still was only a one -time transfer.

12:52

You know, I think even after, you

12:54

know, Eric left to go be the head

12:56

coach at North Texas, you know, he

12:59

had to stay because he didn't graduate yet.

13:01

But it was one of the best

13:03

things that ever happened to him, John, is

13:05

because he – He now came under

13:07

Coach Arbuckle, who's the OC at Oklahoma, and

13:09

he had to learn a new drop.

13:11

He had to be with someone else in

13:13

the room. I think we

13:15

just changed a lot of his habits

13:17

and mechanics. And I think he learned

13:19

going through that process. The first 10

13:21

practices or so from that first spring

13:23

in 2023, it was a little sloppy.

13:26

And then finally, when we got everything

13:28

in sync, know, you're seeing some of

13:30

the highlight plays and Cam is as good as

13:32

it gets. What was your guys' connection? I know

13:34

you were hiring the coach, but how do you,

13:36

from Washington State, I mean, I follow football and

13:38

have done this for a living, for Incarnate Word.

13:42

Because I remember talking to an assistant GM, and

13:44

he was going to go to the West

13:46

Coast. And because Cam had already played two years

13:48

that he would have been draft eligible, he's

13:50

like, I'm watching this kid from Incarnate Word. I've

13:52

never even looked at this program, and he's

13:54

really, really impressive. It's easy

13:56

to say now, but looking back at the

13:58

time, how does it even come on your

14:00

radar and how does that all materialize? I

14:03

think just the whole recruiting process is

14:05

obviously very unique. I mean, coaches are

14:07

tied to players, right? But we also

14:09

had to share our vision of what

14:11

he could do at Washington State. which

14:13

when you look at their hierarchy and

14:15

their Mount Rushmore quarterbacks, just coming off

14:17

of Minshew Mania and Drew Bledsoe and

14:19

Ryan Leaf, and there's been a great

14:21

history of a bunch of quarterbacks. You

14:23

know, Luke Falk is the all -time

14:25

leading passer. You know, so we sold

14:27

a vision of also an offense that

14:29

he could come in and continue and

14:31

enhance. And then my job as the

14:33

head coach is, hey, my job is

14:35

to add value. Right. From a defensive

14:37

side, a defensive lens, a high performance,

14:39

you know, mental ability that we needed

14:41

to get him to to play at

14:43

that level. Everything was happening really fast.

14:45

Right. So I think to get his

14:47

family on board and to know that

14:49

they supported him, he was going to

14:51

a region, a country he had no

14:53

idea about his first time going away

14:55

from home. So I thought he handled

14:57

all those little things in a really

14:59

high fashion. What would your scouting report

15:01

be on Cam Ward? I

15:03

think the biggest thing, you know, we

15:05

fielded a lot of phone calls because

15:08

I think we got a unique perspective

15:10

just based on, you know, we weren't

15:12

the ones that found him. We weren't

15:14

the ones that he ended with. It

15:16

was just kind of that in -between session.

15:18

And, you know, I come back, like

15:20

I said, the competitiveness, right? Like I

15:22

said, I've seen Josh. I've seen John

15:24

Mateer, see some high -level guys. His

15:26

anticipation in seeing throws is unlike anything

15:28

I've ever seen. His confidence to throw

15:30

it in any spots and his escapability.

15:32

There's runnability in quarterbacks. There's escapability and

15:34

creativity. His is off the charts. And

15:36

I think he's learned a lot about

15:38

that, that protecting the ball, taking care

15:40

of those little things is what makes

15:42

great quarterbacks who they are. But he's

15:44

going to walk into a locker room.

15:46

And they're going to respect him because

15:48

of the work, his competitive nature and

15:50

what he brings to the table. And

15:52

I think you're going to be able

15:54

to trust that man. And I think

15:56

that's an important characteristic. And I believe

15:59

John is the number one pick in

16:01

the draft. Yeah, I think by

16:03

all accounts, he's going to be. So

16:05

that's your quarterback room for those two

16:07

years when he was there. John Mater,

16:09

who's now the starting quarterback at Oklahoma,

16:11

who was your quarterback last year. You

16:14

know, Cam Ward, part of it, you

16:16

saw you landed him. And then last year,

16:18

the situation when he kind of dabbled

16:20

in the draft and then ended up transferring

16:22

to Miami. Was that a

16:24

re -recruitment process for you? Or is that

16:26

one of those financial situations in this modern

16:29

day college football that a little out of

16:31

your control at a certain point? I

16:33

mean, it was always the plan. I'm being

16:35

honest with you, John. We talked to Cam,

16:37

him and his family were incredible. I think

16:39

when you're at that level and you have

16:41

a starting quarterback for two years. That's

16:43

what's going to happen. Right. And then

16:45

obviously, John, we felt extremely confident that

16:47

we had the next guy, you know,

16:50

and then obviously as things continue to

16:52

matriculate, John's top 10 in the Heisman.

16:54

You know, I think it's a unique

16:56

story where you just got to continue

16:58

to plan and know that sometimes these

17:00

things are going to happen. Right. John

17:02

Matier's unique story where he was going

17:04

to go to central Arkansas before we

17:06

offered him. He took an official visit

17:08

to New Mexico State. But John is

17:10

one of those guys, his very first

17:12

fall camp. I'm going home at 10

17:15

p .m. I look down on the

17:17

field in the dark. There's John Mateer

17:19

rehearsing plays for the next day. There

17:21

are secrets to success that ultra -high performers

17:23

leave behind in a trail. And I

17:25

thought that was what made John, who

17:27

was a completely different player than Cam,

17:29

that's why he's going to be successful

17:31

in his own way. Right. The competitive

17:33

nature, how smart he is, how tough

17:35

he is, how much he can get

17:38

105 guys to go behind him and

17:40

play for him is super special. So

17:42

and then we were about a week

17:44

away. I was telling you this off

17:46

air from Landon Sam Levin, right,

17:48

which had no other offers besides Washington

17:50

State and was committed to us to a

17:52

long period of time before Michigan State

17:54

came in a week before signing day. So

17:56

we've had a great run of finding

17:58

those guys that really can go out in

18:00

college football and be really successful. You

18:02

know, forever, if you're not at, you know,

18:04

Ohio State or Texas or whatever, I

18:06

mean, even Nick Saban was losing coaches all

18:08

the time. When you hire a

18:11

coach, I remember Mike Gundy used to talk

18:13

about this a lot. He was getting so

18:15

frustrated hiring bigger coaches, so he started going

18:17

to smaller schools, but then those guys, even

18:19

after maybe one year, would still get poached.

18:21

Now you have to worry about not just

18:23

the offensive coordinator as a defensive guy, but

18:25

also the quarterback. They're going as a package

18:27

deal. I know the Wake Forest situation kind

18:29

of materialized, it's fair to say, a little

18:31

later in the process. Is there

18:33

a time last season when you're like,

18:35

how are we going to keep this

18:37

quarterback? Because you just know the landscape

18:39

of college football, which five, six years

18:41

ago, or even when you first got

18:43

involved at Wyoming, it didn't even

18:45

exist. It almost feels like the 1950s

18:48

or something, doesn't it? You've been living in

18:50

it, but that feels like a long

18:52

time ago. It does. I think the biggest

18:54

thing is, as the season kept coming,

18:56

I think we've done an amazing job as

18:58

a program that we put a seven -figure

19:00

deal. in front of John. Yeah, that's

19:02

what I heard. I saw that on the

19:04

internet. That's incredible. And there were so

19:07

many people that stepped up there. I'm so

19:09

proud of all that help and those

19:11

resources. But you got to, just like anything

19:13

else, draw a line. And then I

19:15

think through the kid, through their family, through

19:17

their agency, all the things that they

19:19

have to go through, a lot of pressure

19:21

on these kids, John. You start talking

19:23

about those type of numbers. His loyalty to

19:26

us and our organization was high. And

19:28

I never doubted or questioned John one time.

19:30

I think we built a tremendous relationship. We

19:33

still have one. I think those things are

19:35

really, really important, you know, but you look

19:37

at even our time at Washington state, you

19:39

know, we didn't do so well at the

19:41

end of the season. And those are the

19:43

things as a head coach, I learned that

19:45

the focus needs to be high. You know,

19:47

these kids are taking in offers, you know,

19:49

they're getting recruited. Like how do you navigate

19:52

those things? And I think that's a unique

19:54

challenge that, you know, I got to find

19:56

a better way as a head coach to

19:58

make sure that I can keep everyone focused.

20:00

So going through that experience with, you know,

20:02

multiple quarterbacks, really, when you're interviewing at Wake

20:04

Forest, how big of a topic is the

20:06

NIL? I know it potentially is going to

20:08

change, who knows, with the revenue sharing, so

20:11

it might be somewhat of a moot point,

20:13

but at least in the immediate, was that

20:15

top of mind for you? It's not the

20:17

first question. You know, you go through, I

20:19

mean, I think we had five of the

20:21

top 100 players or so, 200 players in

20:23

the portal were our kids at Washington State.

20:25

So when you find them, when you develop

20:27

them, you know, when they have no stars

20:30

and then they turn into these players, you

20:32

got to have resources to keep them because

20:34

you have built the relationships that you can

20:36

stand on and you understand the family. So

20:38

that's the first question I asked at Wake

20:40

Forest. Are we ready to invest? And it

20:42

was an overwhelming yes. From a university standpoint,

20:45

board of regents standpoint, trustees,

20:47

boosters, like everyone's ready to

20:49

be there. And, you know,

20:51

the collective NIL piece. It's

20:53

been hard for a lot of programs. Right.

20:55

And, know, I think that's why

20:57

I'm here also, too, because there's a

20:59

transactional piece that has come into our

21:02

game. You have to accept it. You

21:04

have to know why it's great for

21:06

young people and their families. But you

21:08

have to stay transformational. Right. You have

21:10

to do it an old school, a

21:12

relationship way to understand these are 18

21:14

to 23 year old kids that need

21:16

our mentorship now more than ever. And

21:18

when you lose that, man, our

21:20

game is going to fall with it.

21:22

So we got to find ways to make

21:24

sure we preserve the greatest game ever

21:26

and find ways to make sure we're mentorship

21:28

with these kids the best way. The

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24:55

know, I think about this a lot, having

24:57

worked for Pat Hill and seeing it at

24:59

Fresno State, and we had so many good

25:02

players and just going, if this was 2025,

25:04

not 2009 or 10, would they have stayed?

25:06

I mean, you've been in that world now

25:08

once the Pac -12 kind of dissolved and

25:10

Washington State and Oregon State got the short

25:12

end of the stick, which is sad because

25:14

you know how much they care about football.

25:16

Can those programs, even Boise, that I think

25:18

they were pretty outspoken, that Ashton Gentry, who

25:20

I definitely would need to ask you about. It's

25:23

turned down a lot of money to

25:25

stay. And I think it's fair to say

25:28

that's an outlier situation moving forward. But

25:30

is that kind of going to become the

25:32

minor league system of college football? I

25:35

really think, John, we're in a dangerous

25:37

place, right? And I've been a big

25:39

proponent of keeping the student -athlete model

25:41

as long as we can. I think

25:43

that's important to our game. But I

25:45

think now we've gotten to the point

25:47

where we might need collective bargaining. Right.

25:49

We might need a certain situation where

25:51

roster building is the hardest thing you've

25:53

ever had to do now at this

25:55

level and especially at the group of

25:57

five. You know, I would love to

25:59

see, you know, once you sign a

26:01

kid out of high school, that's a

26:03

three year locked in contract. It's good

26:05

for the player. It's good for the

26:07

university. It's just good for everyone to

26:09

know. And then now as a junior,

26:11

senior, right, the fourth, fifth year guys.

26:13

You can take advantage and move. Right.

26:15

I'd love to see, you know, almost

26:17

a rookie pay scale. Right. Those guys

26:19

coming into your program are slotted at

26:21

certain levels. Right. So, you know, as

26:23

at that level, you know, OK, these

26:25

are the guys that I'm locked into.

26:27

These are the guys that potentially could

26:29

leave and you can at least build

26:31

a roster. Right. There was a point

26:33

where, you know, you don't know as

26:35

a. any team, I guess we could

26:37

at the same time, you could lose

26:39

every running back, every quarterback. It just,

26:41

you can't plan. And that could be

26:43

twice a year now. So whatever level

26:45

you're talking about, you know, we need

26:47

to have a better fixture of like

26:49

how to build teams. I support the

26:51

portal. I support, you know, these guys

26:53

getting rev share, like all that things

26:55

supported, but from a. Team

26:57

building, roster building, management, no matter what

27:00

level you're at, we've got to

27:02

get a better handle on who's doing

27:04

what, where, and how so we

27:06

can make sure we're building teams the

27:08

right way. Do you have a

27:10

philosophy on the pie of money to

27:12

go, this is what I think

27:14

recruits are worth, freshmen are worth relative

27:16

to a transfer guy like a

27:18

Cam Ward in the portal? And

27:20

if so, did you develop that by

27:22

talking to people in the NFL to

27:24

kind of gauge how to kind of

27:26

balance the economics of this world? Yeah,

27:28

I mean, we were one of the

27:30

first at Washington State to go to

27:32

a GM model when I got hired

27:34

in 2022. You could see where the

27:36

game was going. And our biggest philosophy

27:38

is you have to pay for production,

27:40

not potential, right? That just has to

27:42

be part of what we do and

27:44

still stay towards a developmental structure. Right.

27:46

Find kids at low value. Find the

27:49

traits that you can develop. Put them

27:51

in what I call the slow cooker.

27:53

Life is in a microwave society. Football

27:55

players want it now. We got to

27:57

find the right men that want to

27:59

develop and then have the resources later

28:01

in their career to stay. And yeah,

28:03

every position is a certain, you know,

28:05

we do it this way. Right. You

28:07

come in at a lower level. Once

28:09

you're a low volume backup, that's a

28:11

certain value. High volume backup, certain level,

28:13

low volume starter, high volume starter. And

28:15

obviously everyone has those exceptions, right? That

28:17

you need to make sure you're going

28:19

to the top of the market. So

28:21

that's how we need to stay. And,

28:23

you know, obviously the current situation of

28:25

the quarterback out there shows at times

28:28

teams now need to know when to

28:30

step away. And I think that's the

28:32

hardest part because you're emotionally attached to

28:34

these kids. You know, these kids, right?

28:36

You've invested a lot in these kids.

28:38

So I think there's a balance. You

28:40

know, we've asked. lot of different programs we've

28:43

been around some other NFL teams but their

28:45

models are different because free agency they know

28:47

when kids are up they know when they

28:49

can sign them there isn't two periods that

28:51

can happen right so there's some things that

28:53

you know even they're like you know that

28:55

doesn't happen in our world when you got

28:57

hired the portal was open correct in the

28:59

middle of December Well, I think the biggest

29:01

thing is we got in, you know, I

29:04

was hired December 20th, right around there. So,

29:06

you know, it's already been open for two

29:08

weeks, right? I like to say we came

29:10

in at the end of the draft, right?

29:12

We're trying to find the best value for

29:14

us, you know, at that time. And I

29:16

thought we did a really good job of

29:18

that, right? Now, in this cycle, it's always

29:20

a little bit different. You know, in Wake

29:22

Forest, we want to get out of this.

29:24

We're getting 30 kids a year out of

29:27

the portal, right? That's just the hand we're

29:29

dealt. We got to continue to enhance and

29:31

rise. Is that what your number was this

29:33

fall? Yeah, yeah. 20, you know, 20 and

29:35

about 20 and 10, 20 in the fall,

29:37

10 now. And, you know, that need, that

29:39

number needs to be from five to 10

29:41

and you supplement the positions on your team

29:43

that you need to go enhance a little

29:45

bit. When you get hired and guys on

29:48

your own team are in the portal, it's

29:50

obviously a whirlwind. How do you know? It's

29:52

like you look back, I would have loved

29:54

to keep that guy. I just had a

29:56

lot going on. I'm trying to hire coaches.

29:58

It almost feels like a predicament that's. unsolvable

30:01

at the time. If the NCAA

30:03

asked me, like, what'd you learn from

30:05

the transition? I would love to

30:07

have a 10 -day period where the

30:09

team cannot get in the portal. Allow

30:11

a new coach to get there,

30:13

to get established, and at least be

30:15

able to meet the team. OK,

30:18

we know in today's world, soon as

30:20

Coach Clausen resigned, you

30:22

know, every starter on our team was fielding

30:24

calls just during that uncertainty period. And

30:26

that's tough. Right. And it's just the way

30:28

it is. I mean, everyone can complain

30:30

about it. I think that's the way college

30:32

football is structured now. So I would

30:34

love a 10 day period where just allow

30:36

for a conversation to happen. Right. And,

30:38

you know, there's no nothing more important than

30:40

trying to retain a roster so you

30:42

can build off it. And, you know, it

30:44

comes with unique challenges. especially by the

30:46

time I got hired, every kid was at

30:48

home, right? So we had to do

30:50

that over Zoom and FaceTime. And you know

30:52

this, you just can't feel the energy

30:54

of a new staff that way. Okay.

30:56

I do want to talk about some of

30:58

the guys that you've coached against, especially a lot

31:01

of them are on offense and you're a

31:03

defensive guy. I don't want to bring up a

31:05

bad memory, but Asha Gentry. That's a bad

31:07

memory right there, John. Just talk to

31:09

me because he's a hot topic. I mean,

31:11

he looks from Boise State has a chance to

31:13

go in the top six or seven picks.

31:15

He had a huge day against you guys, and

31:17

you're a good defense. But, I mean, in

31:19

fairness, he did that against everybody. He did that

31:21

against Oregon, who was the number one team

31:24

in the country. From a game -planning perspective, what

31:26

did you see against him, and then what in

31:28

the game were you blown away by? We

31:31

really underestimated his speed. And

31:33

I go back to the Oregon tape,

31:35

and you're watching him run away from

31:37

those guys, and you're just kind of

31:39

watching it, and his contact balance is

31:41

elite. He is about feels like 5

31:43

'8", but he is a bowling ball

31:45

of athleticism and power and speed. So

31:48

he broke more tackles on us, I

31:50

think, than he did on anybody else,

31:52

you know, statistically speaking. And it was

31:54

his contact balance, the way he finished

31:56

his. And when he's out in the

31:58

opening space, you're not catching him. Right.

32:00

So it was a unique challenge of

32:02

trying to find ways. And we were

32:04

in that game and he broke two

32:06

big fourth quarter. you know, touchdown runs

32:08

that just put us away. And it's

32:10

a unique talent. But once again, a

32:12

guy that trusted the process. The year

32:14

before, I mean, you're talking about a

32:16

backup tailback, right? And for him to

32:18

burst on the scene, they always knew

32:20

they had that type of talented player.

32:22

And to kind of see it all

32:24

the way through, I think it is

32:26

good for college football. I mean, Michael

32:28

Penix, Bo Nix, Travis Hunter, Shador, is

32:31

it safe to say he was the

32:33

best player in your three -plus years there

32:35

at Washington State that you went against? We

32:37

went against Caleb Williams. I'm trying to

32:39

think of all the other players. It was

32:41

a quarterback. McMillan at Arizona, I'm sure.

32:43

Yeah, I mean, I would put Caleb Williams

32:45

up there just to – I mean,

32:47

and we held him under 300 yards passing,

32:50

and I don't know if anyone did

32:52

that that year. He was just an incredible

32:54

talent to do it. Genty's right up

32:56

there. You know, Pennix. I still think the

32:58

offensive line at Washington that year was

33:00

just phenomenal, all those players. He's

33:02

right up there, and he deserves everything that's

33:04

coming his way. Obviously, I

33:06

know Coach Danielson over there a little

33:08

bit just speaks to his character, and

33:10

I think all those things put together, he's

33:12

right up there as far as the

33:14

toughest people we've had to defend. Someone asked

33:17

me about a comp with Cam Ward.

33:19

Do you think there are some similarities

33:21

in the way they play with Caleb?

33:23

A little different body types, but... Yeah, yeah.

33:25

And I think that's the one thing,

33:27

Cam, you know, we do these scouting deals

33:30

and everyone after the 22 season was

33:32

like, hey, we got to get his body

33:34

in order. And he did that. I

33:36

think the escapability to where off script,

33:38

you know, defensive coordinators can come in with

33:40

all these fancy plans, right? This is

33:42

how we're going to run this coverage, this

33:44

coverage, this coverage. But when those guys

33:47

break down and they play off script, there's

33:49

no defense for that. And I think

33:51

that's what makes the quarterbacking special. It's the

33:53

number one thing when we start to

33:55

dive into taking a quarterback, you know, we

33:57

make an off script tape. That's what

33:59

makes you elite. And I think that's why

34:02

Cam and the Caleb Williams, you know,

34:04

Penix was a little more pocket passer NFL

34:06

ready that way. But that was makes

34:08

the special player. Like I grew up on

34:10

Brett Favre, right? You're going to take

34:12

a lot of the good with the bad

34:14

sometimes. And Cam's that way a little

34:17

bit because he's the ultimate gunslinger. Like he's

34:19

going to throw it into some type.

34:21

but you need that you can't as a

34:23

head coach say oh this was terrible

34:25

and then celebrate him you know fourth and

34:27

six against Oregon doing a whirling left -handed

34:29

pass it goes with it and I

34:32

think there's a style that he plays that

34:34

I think is really unique me and

34:36

coward were talking about this the other day

34:38

you know you and I are similar

34:40

ages forever it was the Carson Palmer's the

34:42

Manning brothers the Brady's you've been now

34:44

deep in evaluating high school football,

34:47

if you look at the last three

34:49

or four years, even Penix was viewed

34:51

as a pocket quarterback, and then he

34:53

ran like 4 -5 -2. Same thing with

34:55

C .J. Stroud. It's like the guy that's

34:57

6 '6 that can't move, does that

34:59

guy exist in high school football anymore? He

35:02

exists. He's out there, but not a

35:04

lot of people are designing offense for

35:06

that guy because it's hard, right? Would

35:08

you recruit that guy? We would not.

35:10

I mean, you have to be able

35:12

to. We're a big fan, John, of

35:15

not having the same skill sets in

35:17

the room. We signed a kid out

35:19

of Steele Pazella that's 5 '10 1⁄2",

35:21

ran 10 -4 in high school. We got

35:23

Deshaun Purdy that's 6 '5", 225 pounds.

35:25

He got a rocket arm. Why is

35:27

that? Don't you want a similar skill

35:29

set historically? You know what? We really

35:32

don't. Because I think the best coaches

35:34

design the offense to what they have. And

35:36

the one trait that will always be

35:38

in there is athleticism to threaten to

35:41

run. Right. That's the one trait, not

35:43

size, but it's the athleticism to be

35:45

a dual threat and flatten out the

35:47

defense. And I think that's the important

35:49

pieces of what they bring. Like even

35:51

Cam, we'd run Cam a little bit.

35:53

Right. But John Matier opened up a

35:55

whole different level of the offense. So

35:57

you got to be crafty and creative

35:59

enough to make sure you're designing it

36:02

about, you know, whatever the best elite

36:04

trade is of your quarterback. I

36:06

know you guys played Colorado toward the

36:08

end of the season two years ago when

36:11

the team was struggling. Was

36:13

Travis healthy in that game? He was back?

36:15

He was Shador Sanders. You know, he played

36:17

for about a quarter and a half and

36:19

then he wasn't out there. And Travis Hunter

36:21

is a unique skill set now. He caught

36:23

a, he mossed a couple of our guys,

36:25

you know, back in the end zone and

36:27

scored a couple of touchdowns. He's a unique

36:29

player, obviously a unique competitor. And I'm just

36:31

excited to see him do it at the

36:34

next level. I think there's something that's obviously

36:36

very intriguing and, know, the best is still

36:38

in front of him. Did you think what

36:40

could be, what he did this year could

36:42

be done playing all those snaps both ways?

36:44

When it first started, I was like, this

36:46

can't continue. Right. You know, and to do

36:48

it at an elite level, but to be

36:50

able to focus and develop, I think is

36:52

hard. I think in my mind, how do

36:54

you even practice this? Right. So to be

36:56

able to do that, I think it's so

36:58

unique. I think it's so good for college

37:01

football. Now, because of that, though, I've been

37:03

asked the question about playing both ways more

37:05

times. It doesn't happen. Like

37:07

that is a once in a generational

37:09

type talent that can do those type of

37:11

things. So I'm just excited to see

37:13

if he can continue that at the next

37:15

level. How often over the last couple

37:17

of years when some of these top quarterbacks

37:19

are coming out, you know, you're a

37:21

defensive guy. Do NFL guys pick your brain

37:23

about Bo Nix or Michael Panix or

37:25

Shador or obviously your own guys, but the

37:27

competition because the way. you're

37:29

heavily involved in the game plan of stopping,

37:31

and you did a really good job two

37:33

years ago. I looked at the scores against

37:35

Oregon and against Washington, and Washington played in

37:38

the final. And what was the score there,

37:40

24 -21 or something a couple years ago? Yeah,

37:42

you're really laying out. I'm sorry to bring

37:44

up bad memories. You won the

37:46

Apple Cup this year. Yeah, we had the ball

37:48

with three minutes left. I thought Cam was

37:50

going to go down there and lead us to

37:52

victory. I was watching. There's a lot of

37:54

people – that ask about it, I thought it

37:56

was a unique time even in that league,

37:58

right, that last year of the Pac -12 to

38:01

have all that type of talented quarterbacks. Yeah, they

38:03

do. They kind of, hey, how do you

38:05

see this guy? What's Bo Nix's greatest strength? And

38:07

the best part is, like you said, they're

38:09

all different skill sets. They're all unique. But I

38:11

think quarterbacking is something where you've got to

38:13

sit down, the guy in the room, and you've

38:15

got to be able to understand what makes

38:18

that guy tick. Right. And you

38:20

got to be able to coach him

38:22

to their strengths and their abilities. So

38:24

trying to take away their their best

38:26

thing that they do is always something

38:28

that we focused on. Try to make

38:30

them uncomfortable like Penix. We knew if

38:33

we could actually move his feet, the

38:35

analytics said his completion percentage drops from

38:37

like 78 percent down to like 52. So

38:40

the whole game plan was about getting pressure

38:42

in his face. And we went out there

38:44

and I thought executed one play short. Credit

38:46

to Kalen DeBoer. He went for it on

38:48

fourth and one on his own 27 -yard

38:50

line with the reverse. So it was a

38:52

hell of a game. You say analytics. Is

38:54

it safe to say you're pretty heavy into

38:56

the numbers in terms of game planning? It's

38:58

huge. You know, I think it's one

39:01

of those things like you can create

39:03

an edge for your program by how

39:05

you use and analyze those things. okay

39:07

so even at wake forest we're talking

39:09

about you know a sports analytical student

39:11

driven team you know that can take

39:13

this unprecedented amount of information that we

39:16

now have You can look up any

39:18

split, any, you know, because like take

39:20

example, like completion percentage seems like a

39:22

real thing we all talk about. OK,

39:24

well, are you what do you do

39:26

with a drop? What do you do

39:28

with, hey, a running back missed a

39:30

block and he had to just roll

39:33

out and throw it away. Right. So

39:35

when you look at Josh Allen, he

39:37

was 56 percent completion percentage of senior

39:39

year. That's all anyone wanted to talk

39:41

about. Well, what is the

39:43

adjustment completion percentage? What is the down

39:45

the field, you know, deep ball range?

39:47

Like there's a lot of different things

39:50

that go into an accurate quarterback that

39:52

one stat doesn't talk about. Right. So

39:54

there's a lot of things that I

39:56

think we use to our advantage. And

39:58

I think that's kind of been our

40:00

ace in the hole of finding some

40:02

of these things. Like, John, the number

40:04

one thing we look for in the

40:07

portal is snaps gained. Right. That's our

40:09

own little analytic to say, I don't

40:11

care if you're division three, division two

40:13

player. If you've played nine hundred and

40:15

fifty thousand fifteen hundred snaps in your

40:17

career, you understand what it takes to

40:19

go out there and perform and play.

40:22

That's relatable to us in the way

40:24

we metric our organization and how we

40:26

build a team. You're you being

40:28

inclined to use the metrics. Is that something

40:30

you learn from someone else or is that

40:32

something that naturally you enjoyed? Rob

40:34

Schlager is our general manager, and he's the

40:36

smartest human being I've ever been around. The

40:38

best kept secret, in my opinion, in all

40:40

of college football. From the biomechanics to the

40:42

anthropometrics, all these big words that I learned from

40:44

him that I have no idea what they

40:46

mean. Knee circumference, femur

40:48

lengths. I mean, there's things that we

40:51

really put into our process that matters

40:53

and why it affects movers and how

40:55

you see things and what their growth

40:57

potential is. You know, we're not going

40:59

to sign the 6 '6", 305 -pound kid.

41:01

We're going to sign the 6 '6",

41:03

245 -pound kid, and we're going to put

41:05

the 60 pounds on him. And there's

41:07

all sorts of metrics that has been

41:10

proven for us to say, hey, this

41:12

kid can get there or this kid

41:14

can't. You bring him with you from

41:16

Wazoo? Yes, yes. And he was a

41:18

GA for us at Wyoming, and he

41:20

always knew he just had a special...

41:23

just kind of eye for talent and evaluation.

41:25

And, you know, we've kind of put

41:27

our own stamp on things. I heard you,

41:29

sorry to keep you so long, but

41:31

I heard you on an interview talking about

41:33

the recruiting process where it used to

41:35

be the assistant coaches were a lot like

41:37

the scouts for a college program. That's

41:39

changed a little bit. Is it safe to

41:41

say that their activity in the recruiting

41:43

process? is probably a little different

41:45

than it used to be, and now

41:47

you and the GM work more hand -in -hand

41:49

to get these guys because the money

41:51

factors in. Is it completely different than it

41:54

was five years ago? Yeah, I like

41:56

to say recruiting is over. It's player acquisition.

41:58

Right. And one of the biggest things

42:00

we changed and what we sold on what

42:02

we bring to Wake Forest is a

42:04

scouting department and a vision. Right. So, you

42:06

know, we have the GM, the director

42:08

of player personnel, the head scouts and lead

42:10

scouts. I wish they had allowed that

42:12

personnel to leave campus. Right. We're still behind.

42:15

The NFL doesn't ask their position coach,

42:17

you know, throughout the year to go scout

42:19

live games. The scouting group does that.

42:21

So. So your GM can't go to a

42:23

high school game. No, I mean, they

42:25

can't. Now, you can designate them as one

42:27

of the 10, but most people have

42:29

the coaches doing that in the spring. And,

42:31

you know, as football is added, we

42:33

just keep piling it on to the full

42:35

-time staff, right? So allow a little bit

42:38

more flexibility, you know, for us in

42:40

our programs to kind of utilize our personnel,

42:42

you know, as we see fit. And

42:44

I do think that would help the lower

42:46

levels as well. That feels like a

42:48

no -brainer move that your scouting staff can

42:50

hit the high school while your coaches stay

42:52

with your current players, right? Yeah, I

42:54

mean, I think the one thing, even the

42:56

calendar of major college football needs to

42:58

completely be redone. Let's just take the salary

43:01

cap. I mean, the salary cap for

43:03

college football runs August to August. Well,

43:05

we all know the season is January

43:07

to January as far as like building a

43:09

team. So there's some unique challenges and

43:11

all that type of stuff, right? When your

43:13

team comes back in January and you

43:16

might have added 20 portal players and newcomers,

43:18

right? That's when the coaches are on

43:20

the road recruiting high school guys, right? So

43:22

there's just a big shift that I

43:24

think we need to get coaches in the

43:26

room, the guys that actually go through

43:28

it. A guy like Craig Boll

43:31

and Nick Saban and all these coaches heading

43:33

it up and let's... formulate a great

43:35

future for college football. Do you feel like

43:37

at least headed in the right direction

43:39

or still a lot of unknown? I mean,

43:41

this, this is the biggest, I mean,

43:43

we're in the place of biggest unknowns, John,

43:45

like until this house settlement is approved

43:48

and goes through, who knows what's going to

43:50

happen with collectives and third parties, roster

43:52

management's 105. There's more questions

43:54

than ever. You know, like

43:56

I said, we have the best game in all the

43:58

sport. I believe that. The excitement of

44:00

college football is better than the NFL,

44:02

in my opinion. And we got to

44:04

preserve what makes it special. And, you

44:06

know, will there be any more retired

44:09

numbers than college football? I think it's

44:11

an amazing question. I know there's two

44:13

at CU going on. But, you know,

44:15

is there going to be those legendary

44:17

one -place high school or college players

44:19

anymore getting their numbers retired? Especially

44:21

because that's where you get these

44:24

relationships with the people you play with

44:26

and obviously your coaching staff. when

44:28

you're 60, 70, 80 years old. And I start thinking

44:30

some of these guys have transferred three times. Think how many

44:32

people they meet. How do you even keep track of

44:34

that? You

44:37

know, the old, you're going to meet the best man at

44:39

your wedding. You know, that's going to be harder to find,

44:41

right? For sure. Well,

44:43

coach, best of luck. And

44:45

keep this quarterback train, you know,

44:47

rolling. You know, because you got a

44:49

good thing going. Defensive guy, but

44:51

a quarterback guru. I appreciate that.

44:53

That's a tag. I don't know if I want,

44:55

but we're going to continue to grind through it

44:57

and excited about the guys we have here as

44:59

well. Yeah, good luck the rest of the spring

45:01

and obviously this fall. Appreciate

45:03

you, John. Go Deeks! We

45:12

live in a divided country.

45:14

I am a lifelong Republican. With

45:16

all kinds of different people.

45:18

You know, I'm a mother. I'm

45:20

a grandmother. That's why we

45:23

started The Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about

45:25

bringing voices not from the extremes, but

45:27

from the vast middle into the national conversation.

45:29

Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas. Each

45:31

week, we bring together an all -star panel.

45:33

Mark Cuban, so great to have you on

45:35

The Middle. Thanks for having me, Jeremy.

45:37

Neil deGrasse Tyson, welcome to The Middle. Thanks

45:39

for having me. And hear from ordinary

45:42

Americans from all over the country on the

45:44

most important issues. Hi, my name is

45:46

Venkat. I'm calling you from Atlanta, Georgia. And

45:48

when you subscribe to The Middle, you

45:50

also get an episode each week called One

45:52

Thing Trump Did that focuses on just

45:54

one item from the avalanche of news. We

45:56

should be examining what our government spends

45:58

its money on and are these jobs necessary

46:00

and what are we doing here? But

46:03

that doesn't seem to be what we're doing

46:05

in this situation. Listen to The Middle

46:07

with Jeremy Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

46:09

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's

46:12

up, everyone? It's Greg Rosenthal, and

46:14

I'm teaming up with the king of

46:16

spring, Daniel Jeremiah. He requires

46:18

me to say that. We're going to

46:20

be bringing you 40s and free agents,

46:22

the only podcast you'll need this NFL

46:25

draft season. From DJ's mock drafts to

46:27

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

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wherever you get your podcasts. Okay,

46:48

time for a little mailbag. At

46:50

John Middlecoff, at John Middlecoff is

46:52

the Instagram fire in those DMs.

46:54

Get your questions answered here on

46:56

the show. I

46:59

don't know why I just did that. Big

47:02

fan, I don't understand all

47:04

the hate with Nico. Your analogy

47:06

about an average guard doing a

47:08

holdout makes complete sense. But I

47:10

feel like the hardcore college football

47:12

fans want this to fail

47:14

so badly because of the anti -NIL

47:17

sentiment. If Jeremiah Smith does

47:19

a holdout next year, Ohio State

47:21

shouldn't pay him? I

47:23

think that's ridiculous. As

47:26

an ASU fan, I know Sam

47:29

Levitt had some renegotiations this offseason to

47:31

get more money. He's a Heisman

47:33

contender. I don't see a problem with

47:35

that. He didn't hold out, but

47:37

I bet some stars will hold out

47:39

eventually. Well, you used Jeremiah

47:41

Smith. He had an elite season and

47:44

is an elite player. No one has an

47:46

issue with him wanting a raise. I

47:48

forget the guy's name, but he

47:50

was a huge recruit. And South Carolina,

47:52

he's like the... Honestly, he feels

47:54

a little shiftier. I mean, Clowney went

47:57

one, but he's like this generation's

47:59

version for South Carolina of Clowney. Elite

48:01

pass rusher. I remember reading during

48:03

the season, it was like they had

48:05

to give him a huge raise

48:07

so it didn't become a problem by

48:09

the time the portal ended at

48:11

the end of the season. No one

48:14

had an issue with that. Kid

48:16

was elite. No one has a problem

48:18

paying the elites elite money. But

48:20

when you throw one touchdown against good

48:22

teams and then you want to

48:24

raise, when you're already being paid a

48:26

premium, I think, you know, I'm

48:28

not counting the fans because I'm with

48:31

you. Some people have an issue

48:33

with NIL. Some people just want to see

48:35

the best players on their own team. I

48:37

think just someone independent like me, I don't

48:39

care either way. You can

48:41

make whatever you want to make. Doesn't

48:43

matter to me. But I can judge

48:45

an individual situation. And, you

48:47

know, I know Nico's camp has

48:49

come out and said it was because

48:51

of the offense. Before I recorded

48:53

this, he just committed to UCLA. I'm

48:56

sorry. Making $2 million in Tennessee

48:58

with a really, really good team.

49:00

No state income tax. It's not

49:02

only financially beneficial in the SEC

49:04

on a team that was just

49:06

in the playoffs with a coach

49:08

that's proven he can win. to

49:10

go to UCLA. Now, if you

49:12

just wanted to go home, okay.

49:15

I won't fault you if you wanted

49:17

to go home. But if this

49:19

was a business slash football move, it's

49:21

insanity. There's no way, not a

49:23

soul from a football standpoint and making

49:25

two plus million dollars at Tennessee

49:27

going to UCLA where the basketball coach,

49:29

Mick, never stops bitching and moaning

49:31

so that we don't have any money.

49:33

So I think it's fair to

49:35

assume that he took a pay decrease.

49:37

And that's just, I'm just based

49:39

on the gross number. I'm not even

49:41

factoring, you know, what he's going

49:43

to lose, California's going to take. So

49:45

he lost a lot of money.

49:47

I think it's fair to guess, take

49:49

an educated guess. And from a

49:51

football standpoint, now they won four of

49:54

their last like six games. They

49:56

didn't make a bowl game. Tennessee was

49:58

in the playoffs playing Ohio State. And I

50:00

would imagine they were a preseason top

50:02

12 team. Now I did see Urban Meyer

50:04

come out and say, that

50:06

Tennessee's going to be screwed, like who's

50:08

going to play quarterback, which I

50:10

think is they could have a big

50:13

downgrade at quarterback, very true. So

50:15

I don't know. I think this situation

50:17

is just messy. But

50:19

I think from Nico's standpoint, I

50:21

hope it was his decision and

50:23

not his quote -unquote handlers or

50:25

his dad or whatever, because they're

50:27

not the ones playing. It's

50:29

like when people... You

50:32

know, I see this a lot in

50:34

relationships. And a lot of you guys

50:36

that are my age or older that

50:38

have seen people go through divorces, that

50:40

have seen people just had messy breakups.

50:42

You know, if you're listening to this

50:44

in your 20s, as you live life,

50:46

you're going to see a lot of

50:48

things. But no one, and I mean

50:51

no one, can understand your relationship. They're

50:53

not sleeping with the person. They're not

50:55

spending or living with the person. So

50:57

it's like it's their life to

50:59

lead. You know, whether it's parents, whether

51:01

it's brothers, whether it's friends, everyone

51:04

can give their opinions and takes on

51:06

your on your relationship, whether you

51:08

should get a divorce, whether you should

51:10

get married, whether you should break

51:12

up, whatever it is. It's like, well,

51:14

two people are in the, you

51:16

know, driving the bus and riding shotgun.

51:19

Everyone else is just a bystander.

51:21

And it's like Nico's family or whoever.

51:23

It's like, I hope this was

51:25

the kid's decision, which is a very,

51:27

very difficult spot to be in. At

51:30

19, 20, 18 years old. I even

51:32

saw a headline today. I didn't click

51:34

on the article, but I think it's

51:36

fair. Like what the headline I saw,

51:38

I would imagine Cam was given pretty

51:40

good advice. Cam Newton was like, you

51:42

got to be very careful about getting

51:44

advice because a lot of it can

51:46

get bad. And it's why

51:48

you want to be in business if you're

51:50

going to get an agent or people negotiating

51:52

your deal with people that know what they're

51:54

doing. And as a

51:57

prospect and a revenue

51:59

generator like he is,

52:01

you know, the Rosenhaus, the CAAs,

52:03

I don't think Tom Condon is

52:06

active as much. Ryan Williams that

52:08

does a lot of dudes. Like,

52:10

Mulgetta. I think there will be a

52:12

lot of people that just know what

52:14

the fuck they're doing. I

52:17

would want to be in. But I

52:19

also then defend the kid. Like, how

52:21

would he know that? It's just a...

52:24

Just messy. It really is.

52:26

Given your background as a

52:28

scout for the Eagles, could

52:31

you shed some standout? You

52:33

recruited, scouted, you blew

52:35

your way. Additionally, I'd love to know

52:37

the key prospects. You were directly involved

52:39

scouting. You know,

52:41

I think, you know, a lot of

52:43

GMs and personnel directors, there's

52:45

not any guy that's going

52:47

to get drafted, especially a

52:49

guy with, I would say,

52:52

fifth, sixth round. You know, once you

52:54

get to seventh undrafted, like, is

52:56

the GM watching those guys? But any

52:58

guy in the top 150, 200

53:00

prospects on your draft board. Not only

53:02

if you do the area, like,

53:04

I only did college one year. I

53:06

did the West Coast. But if

53:08

I had a player that had a

53:10

third -round grade on him, I bet

53:12

five other people watched him. The

53:14

GM, the assistant GM, a

53:16

scout that cross -checks

53:18

watching that position. and

53:21

the college director. So by

53:23

the time you've watched a

53:25

player and all these rooms

53:27

are talking about their draft

53:29

board right now, most

53:32

players, now there is, you know, the

53:34

longer you do an area, the more

53:36

you have a feel for guys and

53:38

your sources. And maybe you argue

53:40

if the entire room hates them. But for

53:42

the most part, you're going to have some people

53:44

on the guy's side. Let's just say a

53:46

polarizing player and, you know, non like Travis Hunter.

53:49

And some people are arguing against

53:51

them. And then you just kind

53:53

of talk it out. But I

53:55

think this notion that it's like

53:58

one guy's idea is just not

54:00

really how it works. Because so

54:02

many people, one, typically, especially bigger

54:04

schools, like if I run the

54:06

Eagles and we have Alabama or

54:08

Ohio State or whoever has a

54:11

lot of prospects, Michigan last year,

54:13

you're going to have multiple human

54:15

beings go through the program during

54:17

the fall. So you have multiple

54:19

sets of eyes that write the

54:21

group up and then on top

54:24

of your decision makers all watching

54:26

the guy. And then you factor

54:28

in the coaching staff. So I

54:30

think this notion of like diamonds

54:32

in the rough, that died when

54:34

this little thing called the internet

54:37

started. Like there's no, the diamond

54:39

in the rough does not exist

54:41

because everyone knows who everybody is. Now,

54:44

there might be people in a draft

54:46

room that don't agree with the player. I

54:48

think this guy's better than you do,

54:50

but that probably happens all the time. I

54:53

was more active in terms of fighting

54:55

for Andrew Sandejo. That's my claim to

54:57

fame. I knew Andrew Sandejo could play.

54:59

He played in the league for like

55:01

10 years. He was playing in the

55:04

UFL. We didn't even have a write

55:06

-up in the system on him from

55:08

Rice. And Louis Riddick told

55:10

me he sucked. Whenever I

55:12

see him, we still make fun of him. For that

55:14

one. Just played for Mike Zimmer. Vikings,

55:17

Cowboys for a long time. Big

55:19

hitter. But

55:23

in terms of like draft guys, like, yeah,

55:25

I love Zach Ertz. Everyone's like, yeah, so

55:27

do I. I was like, I don't think

55:29

Matt Barkley's that good. Neither do we. So

55:32

now if the decision maker disagrees

55:34

with you, it doesn't matter. But I

55:37

think this notion that like one

55:39

guy's pounding the table. Nowadays,

55:41

now I guess they're, you know, the Eagles,

55:43

we had a pretty big scouting department. Some

55:45

scouting departments are smaller. Do

55:49

you think it would be a smart

55:51

move for the 49ers to trade Purdy to

55:53

the Steelers for TJ Watt? Then the

55:55

Niners would draft Sanders with their first round

55:57

pick. Shador seems like the type

55:59

of quarterback that Kyle would like. Very

56:01

accurate and cheap. Plus TJ and Nick Bosa.

56:04

Maybe you're alluding to TJ saying

56:06

the deuces. I

56:10

can't do that. As

56:12

awesome as it would be to have those

56:14

two guys coming off the edge. This

56:17

notion, and I've seen you're not

56:19

the first person to ask some

56:21

version of this. If

56:24

everyone knew Shador Sanders was going

56:26

to be as good as Brock Purdy,

56:28

there is absolutely no way the

56:30

Cleveland Browns would pass on Shador Sanders.

56:34

And definitely the Giants would not.

56:36

Zero chance. So both those two

56:38

teams, he would never make it

56:40

past three. But no one knows

56:42

that, including the 49ers. So you can't

56:44

take the risk of, like, what if

56:46

he's not as good, not even remotely

56:48

as good, which it's kind of the

56:50

bird in the hand thing. Now, there

56:53

are variables you have to pay the

56:55

guy, but, like, regardless

56:57

of the financial situation, you just know

56:59

you can win games with him. You do

57:01

not know that with even Cam Ward, any

57:04

of these quarterbacks in this draft. So

57:06

I think there's a big element to that

57:08

there. What

57:11

is to become of the running back market?

57:14

Ashton Gentry can probably go to

57:16

the transfer portal, Oregon, Texas, Ohio

57:18

State, and make $10 million. I

57:21

don't know if he can make that much, but I hear what you're

57:23

saying. And

57:25

be more valuable to a college team

57:27

than an NFL team. Najee Harris, first

57:29

round pick, only made $10 million for

57:32

his rookie contract. for 1

57:34

,000 -yard seasons. And most running

57:36

backs aren't making it to

57:38

a third contract anyways. I

57:41

think you're

57:43

a little bold

57:45

with your

57:47

numbers. You know, I

57:49

think the highest -paid players in college

57:51

football right now are making like $2

57:53

or $3 million. Nico was one of

57:55

them. And they're quarterbacks. So if you

57:58

could make $10 million for one season,

58:00

then I think... you would go to

58:02

Ohio State and do that in a

58:04

heartbeat. No -brainer. I think it's like Cooper

58:06

Flagg money, Caleb Williams money. So it's

58:08

pretty rare. Now, it doesn't mean we

58:10

can't get there. Najee

58:12

Harris was a late first -round pick. Not

58:15

only did he make $10 million through his first

58:17

four years, I think he just, I don't know

58:19

what the guarantee was. So I could

58:21

be speaking out of turn because I saw like $9

58:23

million. But if the guarantee is less than that. But,

58:26

yeah, I mean, I don't

58:28

know what to tell you. I

58:31

don't think, I think Blake

58:33

Corum is a good example. Two

58:36

years ago, he stayed when he could

58:38

have came out and he stayed for money.

58:41

And because it's like, well, I'm going to go

58:43

on the second day of the draft, but if

58:45

you're going to pay me $2 million, then it's

58:47

a no brainer to stay. I think your numbers

58:49

got so big, they don't even need to be

58:51

that big. Who is the

58:53

one athlete you would choose to have

58:55

a one -on -one dinner with and why?

58:57

How would you react if said athlete

58:59

is a complete asshole to the waiter

59:02

serving y 'all? That's

59:04

a good question. I could

59:06

take two approaches here. I could

59:08

be like, I'll go Peyton Manning.

59:10

You know, we'll just talk life.

59:13

We'll talk business. We'll talk football.

59:15

Try to become friends with them.

59:17

Or I would take like Patrick

59:19

Mahomes or Josh Allen and try

59:21

to develop and cultivate a relationship

59:24

so like they come on the

59:26

podcast all the time. And it'd

59:28

be incredible for my business. So

59:30

from a business standpoint, it would

59:32

probably be the right move to

59:34

take, I mean, probably like Patrick

59:37

Mahomes, Josh Allen, Lamar Jackson, one

59:39

of the top quarterbacks in the

59:41

league. Dak

59:43

Prescott. I mean, just

59:45

on a sure numbers basis, if Dak

59:47

Prescott is going to be the starting quarterback

59:49

for the Cowboys for the next several

59:52

years, Going to

59:54

dinner with Dak Prescott, becoming buddies with him, and having

59:56

him come on my podcast all the time would be

59:58

incredible for business. Brock Purdy, same thing,

1:00:00

49ers. Jordan Love. I mean, any

1:00:02

of these quarterbacks and big brands would

1:00:04

be. So, I mean, from a

1:00:06

business standpoint, I would be crazy not

1:00:08

to do that. From just a

1:00:10

personal standpoint, not that Peyton would be

1:00:12

bad for business, but in terms

1:00:14

of guys playing on a weekly basis,

1:00:16

if they came on my show

1:00:18

every Tuesday, that'd be a no -brainer. I'd

1:00:21

probably choose Peyton over Tom. I

1:00:25

think you asshole to the waiter,

1:00:27

I just, I have a hard

1:00:29

time seeing that with most of

1:00:31

these guys. But, yeah,

1:00:33

it's a pretty big turnoff. I mean,

1:00:36

unless the waiters, like, I'll say one

1:00:38

thing, and we went out to dinner

1:00:40

last week in Scottsdale, and I've eaten

1:00:42

out a lot, I would say, in

1:00:44

my couple years living in this area. They

1:00:48

charge you, and this is like

1:00:50

most bigger cities, I guess. The

1:00:52

restaurant scene is so over. It

1:00:54

just costs an arm and

1:00:57

a leg for the most places.

1:00:59

I mean, there are Mastro's,

1:01:01

some certain steakhouses that are just

1:01:03

pretty elite. But most places,

1:01:05

I would say the food is

1:01:07

very hit or miss. The

1:01:09

service here sucks. I mean, sucks

1:01:11

for what they're charging you.

1:01:13

Now, is that a product? of

1:01:16

not enough people working? Is it just a product

1:01:18

of people not being good at their job? I

1:01:20

don't know. I don't work in the service industry.

1:01:23

But are you allowed to be rude

1:01:25

if it is really, really poor?

1:01:27

Now, if someone's just overwhelmed, it's not

1:01:29

their fault, totally understand. But

1:01:31

it would depend on the context. If you're just

1:01:33

being a dick to be a dick, then

1:01:36

yeah, I'd be out on you. What

1:01:40

do you think about this year's wide

1:01:42

receiver class? I know it doesn't have the

1:01:44

top -end talent like Marvin Harrison. and jsn

1:01:46

but i do think it's got a

1:01:48

lot of guys that are immediately plug and

1:01:50

play starters i do believe that this

1:01:52

class has quite a bit of depth from

1:01:54

programs for example i'm a missouri fan

1:01:56

luther burton uh i've seen him play in

1:01:59

person for multiple years and i think

1:02:01

there's a chance he's a real star i

1:02:03

don't understand why he's falling in the

1:02:05

mocks i do think there are some question

1:02:07

marks i'll just leave it at that

1:02:09

i think there are just question marks and

1:02:11

sometimes when you see a guy fall You

1:02:14

know, the people, especially people that are

1:02:16

dialed in, you know, DJ, Matt

1:02:19

Miller, Todd

1:02:21

McShay, guys that like do this

1:02:23

for a living, like mock the

1:02:25

draft, mock drafts. They're talking to

1:02:27

a lot of people in the league. And

1:02:29

when they just start telling you things

1:02:31

that, you know, it's not really DJ

1:02:33

style to come out and just say

1:02:35

what's really going on about a player.

1:02:37

And I'm not using this as an

1:02:40

example for Luther, but like that's usually

1:02:42

why guys fall. And then there's

1:02:44

sometimes just simple. It's like, yeah, we don't think he's as

1:02:46

fast or whatever. Because I'm with you. I watched him play

1:02:48

a lot the last couple years. You guys were good. He

1:02:50

was good. I

1:02:52

think last year, I

1:02:55

mean, Malik Nabors, pretty elite prospect. Rome's

1:02:57

pretty damn good. Marvin

1:02:59

Harrison is like underwhelming and he's pretty

1:03:01

good. Based on one season, not

1:03:03

all his fault. But if you could redo

1:03:05

the draft, I mean, you're taking Malik Nabors over

1:03:07

Marvin Harrison. We've just had

1:03:09

pretty good wide receiver drafts over the last several

1:03:11

years. I mean, really good wide receiver drafts.

1:03:14

So I think there are a lot of question

1:03:16

marks with this crew, right? Travis

1:03:18

Hunter is like this hybrid player. So

1:03:20

it's like, is he even a wide receiver?

1:03:22

I don't know. McMillan,

1:03:24

I think there are some

1:03:26

question marks with just overall speed,

1:03:28

you know, guys like him.

1:03:30

I think there hasn't been a

1:03:33

wide receiver drafted in the

1:03:35

top 10 or 12 that ran

1:03:37

as slow as him since

1:03:39

Mike Evans. Now, Mike Evans is

1:03:41

a Hall of Famer, but it shows you

1:03:43

there's a little bit of an outlier. And

1:03:45

sometimes when you run in the 4 .5s

1:03:47

or 4 .6s, even if you dominate in college,

1:03:49

you get discriminated against. Now, I've

1:03:52

seen a lot of guys, Keenan

1:03:54

Allen, Devontae Adams, not Blazers, elite players,

1:03:56

you know, in the prime of their career.

1:03:58

So I think you've got to be

1:04:00

careful about that. But those guys went in

1:04:03

the second round. And I

1:04:05

think historically... mean, just look at recent

1:04:07

memory. Some of the best wide receivers,

1:04:09

some of the highest paid wide receivers

1:04:11

have not been first round picks. Now,

1:04:13

some of them have been, right? Jamar

1:04:15

Chase, Justin Jefferson, CeeDee Lamb. But

1:04:17

there's also that crew of like A

1:04:19

.J. Brown, D .K. Metcalf.

1:04:22

So Terry McLaurin was not a

1:04:24

first round pick. We

1:04:34

live in a divided country. I am

1:04:36

a lifelong Republican. With all kinds of

1:04:38

different people. You know, I'm a mother.

1:04:40

I'm a grandmother. That's why we started

1:04:42

The Middle with Jeremy Hobson. It's about

1:04:44

bringing voices not from the extremes, but

1:04:46

from the vast middle into the national

1:04:48

conversation. Anna, I'm calling from Las Vegas.

1:04:50

Each week, we bring together an all -star

1:04:52

panel. Mark Cuban, so great to have

1:04:55

you on The Middle. Thanks for having

1:04:57

me, Jeremy. Neil deGrasse Tyson, welcome to

1:04:59

The Middle. Thanks for having me. And hear

1:05:01

from ordinary Americans from all over the

1:05:03

country on the most important issues. Hi,

1:05:05

my name is Venkat. I'm calling you

1:05:07

from Atlanta, Georgia. And when you subscribe

1:05:09

to The Middle, you also get an

1:05:11

episode each week called One Thing Trump Did

1:05:13

that focuses on just one item from

1:05:15

the avalanche of news. We should be

1:05:17

examining what our government spends its money

1:05:19

on and are these jobs necessary and

1:05:21

what are we doing here? But that doesn't

1:05:23

seem to be what we're doing in

1:05:25

this situation. Listen to The Middle with

1:05:27

Jeremy Hobson on the iHeart Radio app,

1:05:30

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your

1:05:32

podcasts. What's up, everyone?

1:05:34

It's Greg Rosenthal, and I'm teaming up

1:05:36

with the King of Spring. Daniel Jeremiah.

1:05:38

He requires me to say that. We're

1:05:40

going to be bringing you 40s and

1:05:42

free agents, the only podcast you'll need

1:05:44

this NFL draft season. From DJ's mock

1:05:47

drafts to my top 101 free agents,

1:05:49

we'll have it covered for you with

1:05:51

all new episodes every Thursday, keeping you

1:05:53

up to date as we head to

1:05:55

the NFL draft. Listen to 40s and

1:05:57

free agents on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1:05:59

Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Diehard

1:06:09

Ravens fan. What moves

1:06:11

do you see us making this offseason?

1:06:13

Not exactly sure on our cap space.

1:06:15

Off the top of my head. Usually

1:06:17

don't have much. Me personally would love

1:06:19

to send maybe a first, maybe two

1:06:21

firsts to Cleveland, but they'd

1:06:23

never give it. No. You're

1:06:26

not getting miles. The thing

1:06:28

is, in basketball and baseball, I can

1:06:30

trade a guy whenever because their contract is

1:06:33

going to pay by as you go.

1:06:35

In the NFL with signing bonuses, Like,

1:06:37

once I give a guy a huge

1:06:39

contract, it's very, very difficult to trade the

1:06:41

guy and even be willing to trade

1:06:43

him. So I think with the

1:06:45

Ravens, honestly, you guys have been

1:06:47

good enough the last couple years to

1:06:49

win a Super Bowl. It

1:06:52

really hasn't been a roster thing. You

1:06:54

know, Derrick Henry's a little older now. I mean,

1:06:56

you signed him last year, he was old. I

1:06:58

wouldn't be shocked at all if you draft a

1:07:00

running back in, I would say, the first three

1:07:02

rounds. You can never

1:07:04

have enough offensive linemen. You

1:07:06

know, defensive line. I mean, I just think

1:07:08

you guys are kind of meat and potatoes. But

1:07:11

last year, he drafted Wiggins, the corner from

1:07:13

Clemson. He looks like he's pretty good. Humphrey's

1:07:15

getting up there a little bit in age. A lot

1:07:17

of wear and tear on those tires, but he's still

1:07:19

a really good player. I mean, once they bumped

1:07:21

him into the slot last year, Hamilton, you got Roquan.

1:07:24

I mean, you got a good team. I mean, I

1:07:26

don't know. Take the best players. What

1:07:28

do you need? Just more sweet players? I

1:07:30

mean, Lamar not to turn the ball over

1:07:32

in the playoffs? I've

1:07:34

been a Steeler fan my entire life.

1:07:36

and watched the peak of Ben Roethlisberger, and

1:07:38

even in the years of decline, they

1:07:40

never had a contingency plan. Why do you

1:07:42

think Tomlin and the Steelers front office

1:07:44

are so tone deaf with the quarterback position?

1:07:46

I actually really don't think they are.

1:07:48

I just think you find yourself, and I

1:07:50

use this analogy with the Chiefs and

1:07:52

tackles, when you draft late, what are you

1:07:54

supposed to do? Listen, I

1:07:56

didn't like the Kenny Pickett pick,

1:07:59

but they did try. They took

1:08:01

a guy with the 20th overall

1:08:03

pick. It

1:08:05

backfired, and he's not even on the team. Hell,

1:08:07

he's on his however many teams. He's been on the

1:08:09

Steelers, the Eagles, and now he's on his third

1:08:11

team in whatever, three years. But four

1:08:13

years. They tried. So I can't say they

1:08:16

never tried. They did that. They drafted

1:08:18

Mason Rudolph. What round did he get drafted?

1:08:20

The third? Last

1:08:23

year, they brought in those two guys. Now,

1:08:26

granted, they were both cheap, but still,

1:08:28

they tried. Neither of them worked. Right

1:08:30

now they're sniffing around Aaron Rodgers. I

1:08:32

don't really, I would imagine they draft

1:08:34

another guy this year. I

1:08:37

give him more effort credit than you do.

1:08:41

I was listening to a recent episode

1:08:43

debating the top corners in the

1:08:45

league. Why doesn't Christian Gonzalez get thrown

1:08:47

into the mix? He missed a

1:08:49

chunk of his rookie season, but almost

1:08:51

immediately was a lockdown corner and

1:08:53

proved that again in a second year.

1:08:55

Interested to hear your thoughts. I

1:08:58

think you guys have been really shitty. So

1:09:01

when you've been that bad, what,

1:09:03

you have the fourth pick this year,

1:09:05

you had the third pick last

1:09:07

year. I mean, your games have been

1:09:09

unwatchable now for two years. Belichick's

1:09:11

year and Gerard Mayo's year. Like, as

1:09:13

a consumer, I love football. I

1:09:15

do it for a living. After

1:09:17

a couple weeks, I don't need to watch

1:09:19

you play football. And the only times, like,

1:09:22

I'm watching you of, like, okay, you're playing

1:09:24

Josh Allen and the Bills. It's

1:09:26

like, what's the point of this game, right?

1:09:29

Or Aaron Rodgers' game, which I think you

1:09:31

guys did win, which was cool, the one.

1:09:34

Did you guys beat the Jazz last year? Yeah,

1:09:36

you did, right? On a walk -off touchdown, I

1:09:38

think, or basically a walk -off touchdown. Drove the

1:09:40

field. Watched that game. But

1:09:42

we're not consuming you, right? So like

1:09:44

last year, Stingley became a star. Why? The

1:09:46

team was good. They've been a playoff

1:09:48

team two years in a row. Patrick

1:09:50

Sertain, how did he kind of

1:09:53

take a huge jump? was team

1:09:55

last year, was the playoff team.

1:09:57

So I think a huge part

1:09:59

of becoming a quote -unquote sexy

1:10:01

name or whatever, or talked about

1:10:03

player in the NFL, it's really

1:10:06

hard, unless you're a rookie and

1:10:08

set some records. You're

1:10:10

drafting the top five back -to -back years.

1:10:12

We're not going to be as dialed into

1:10:14

you. It's much easier to watch Steph

1:10:16

Curry and LeBron than it is to watch

1:10:18

the Hawks. Anyone

1:10:21

you like, offense or defensive rookie

1:10:24

the year. Fantasy picks for

1:10:26

rookies. By the way, got any

1:10:28

promos for DraftKings and GameTime? Of

1:10:30

course, John. J -O -H -N, baby. I

1:10:32

think to make those predictions,

1:10:35

you kind of got to see

1:10:37

where guys go. I mean,

1:10:39

one thing we've learned the last

1:10:41

couple years, who you are

1:10:43

playing with as either a running

1:10:45

back or, like if I

1:10:47

tell you the Chargers draft a

1:10:49

running back, in the

1:10:51

first round, I would say I would

1:10:53

probably like that guy to have a

1:10:55

chance to be the offensive rookie of

1:10:57

the year, right? If you tell me

1:10:59

Denver, the Chargers draft a running back

1:11:01

really high, I'm kind of going to

1:11:04

like it, right? So yeah, I think

1:11:06

the fit for now defensive rookie of

1:11:08

the year, you know, if

1:11:10

Abdul Carter goes to the Giants,

1:11:12

I mean, is he going to

1:11:14

be, I don't know. trying

1:11:18

to think. Yeah, I think you just

1:11:20

got to see where guys end up. A

1:11:23

big fan from Canada. Always feel

1:11:25

like Drew Brees is one of the

1:11:27

most underrated and underappreciated athletes in

1:11:29

sports. After being on the wrong side

1:11:31

of some of the most iconic

1:11:33

playoff games, such as the Minneapolis Miracle,

1:11:35

the No Call, the Beastquake, the

1:11:37

Vernon Davis, the Grab Game, do you

1:11:39

think if a handful of these

1:11:41

games ended differently and we would have

1:11:43

a much different opinion of them?

1:11:45

It always said... that it was Brady

1:11:47

in the Manning era, but I

1:11:49

feel like it undervalues Breeze just because

1:11:51

the Saints' defense made Sam Bradford

1:11:54

look like the next great quarterback. That's

1:11:57

a pretty good question. I would say,

1:12:00

I mean, if a couple goes away, I

1:12:02

mean, the one, what if he wins

1:12:04

the Super Bowl, right? The one, the pass

1:12:06

interference, the Jared Goff year, what if

1:12:08

they went and they beat the Patriots? It's

1:12:10

not like the Patriots were world beaters

1:12:12

that year. They beat the Rams, what, 13

1:12:14

-3? So it's fair to say they were

1:12:16

beatable in that game. I would

1:12:18

say, yeah. I mean, part of it is like

1:12:20

if I told you Drew Brees won two

1:12:23

Super Bowls and went to another, I think we

1:12:25

would look at him a little differently for

1:12:27

sure. And that's part of the way sports works.

1:12:30

Like it's easy to make fun of James

1:12:32

Harden. If James Harden was a two -time champion

1:12:35

and an NBA Finals MVP, no one would

1:12:37

say anything. Which

1:12:40

non -player do you think contributed

1:12:42

the most? To Washington's success

1:12:44

last season. I

1:12:46

think you'd have to say the

1:12:48

head coach. I mean, Adam Peters

1:12:50

picked Jaden Daniels, but I think

1:12:52

it's fair to say that everyone

1:12:54

was on board there. And I

1:12:57

think Adam's a stud, but their

1:12:59

team, and I would imagine Adam

1:13:01

would say this, like last year,

1:13:03

their roster on paper was not

1:13:05

a NFC championship roster. So Dan

1:13:07

Quinn, getting those guys to believe

1:13:09

the toughness factor, just a well

1:13:11

-rounded like operation. It felt

1:13:13

like for decades, Washington was just

1:13:15

kind of clueless. And

1:13:17

part of, I mean, a huge reason their

1:13:19

owner was always acting, you know, Bruce Allen. They

1:13:22

always had too many cooks in the kitchen. And

1:13:24

it just feels like they're just a normal organization.

1:13:27

They got a good GM. They got a coach

1:13:29

that knows what he's doing. So

1:13:32

I'd probably lean Dan Quinn. You

1:13:36

said you're currently a five handicap. Describe

1:13:40

the strengths. And your weaknesses of

1:13:42

your golf game. Things

1:13:44

you need to work on. Also,

1:13:46

where do you play in Arizona in

1:13:48

the summer? Assuming Arizona is too

1:13:50

hot. It's the best time to play.

1:13:52

I mean, if it's 115, it's

1:13:54

difficult to play. But if it's 108,

1:13:56

110, got the course yourself. I

1:13:58

can play 18 holes in two hours.

1:14:02

Strength of my golf game. I'm a

1:14:04

ball striker. Weakness, anything around the

1:14:06

green. Putting, worst putter in America. There

1:14:08

is not a worst putter in

1:14:10

America. than your boy. It doesn't get

1:14:12

any worse. I've changed putters. It

1:14:15

doesn't matter. I'm just not a good

1:14:17

putter. So I can play like a

1:14:19

shoot of 74 and I can putt

1:14:21

like 100 and that's why I end

1:14:23

up shooting in the low 80s. Putting,

1:14:26

terrible. I would

1:14:28

play golf in the heat

1:14:30

any day over the cold. Should

1:14:32

the Vikings take a page out of

1:14:35

the Eagles book and extend Addison early?

1:14:37

Use the fifth year. Thought process is

1:14:39

based on McCarthy being the guy and

1:14:41

capitalizing on his rookie deal. Yeah,

1:14:44

not a bad idea at all. I

1:14:46

mean, he's probably to get suspended, right,

1:14:48

for that DUI situation from last year.

1:14:52

But he's a player.

1:14:54

So I'm never against

1:14:56

extending good players. Now,

1:14:58

he's not going to be cheap.

1:15:00

So you have, I guess, Jamar is

1:15:02

now technically the highest paid player.

1:15:04

but one of the highest paid non

1:15:06

-quarterbacks in the league at that position.

1:15:09

So are you going to also pay

1:15:11

Addison? It's like you're getting Addison

1:15:13

for $50 million. I mean, it's probably

1:15:15

going to cost you $80, $90

1:15:17

million guaranteed. You're basically just taking the

1:15:19

approach of the Bengals, I guess,

1:15:21

which I can't fault you. I mean,

1:15:23

you drafted these two guys. So, yeah,

1:15:26

I mean, I'm never against it.

1:15:28

Now, I'd have to see the

1:15:30

number. You could argue just let

1:15:32

it play out. Because you drafted

1:15:34

Jordan Addison, what, pick? Forget

1:15:37

off the top of my head. 21,

1:15:39

24, 25, somewhere in there. So he's

1:15:41

relatively cheap. I just played out another

1:15:43

year. I'm

1:15:46

so sick of Packer

1:15:48

fans just being good.

1:15:51

I'm a lifelong Packer fan, and I'm so sick

1:15:53

of just being good. My

1:15:55

eyes don't really work anymore. It's fine every

1:15:57

year with being in, quote -unquote, the hunt,

1:15:59

but damn. Why won't the front office

1:16:01

ever go get a big -time playmaker? We've

1:16:03

won two Super Bowls in my life, and

1:16:05

every year it's the same thing. We're

1:16:07

building for the future. Well, last year they

1:16:10

need a veteran voice in the wide

1:16:12

receiver room, and I think it showed at

1:16:14

the end of the year. What's your

1:16:16

opinion on why the Packers don't do shit

1:16:18

every year? That's

1:16:21

a good question. Coward's

1:16:23

always had the theory, and I

1:16:25

think he's probably on to something,

1:16:27

is not having an owner. is

1:16:29

like a blessing and a curse.

1:16:31

Not having an owner is incredible

1:16:33

because for whatever reason, you have

1:16:35

just had very, very capable from

1:16:37

Ron Wolfe, who's obviously a Hall

1:16:39

of Famer, to Ted Thompson, to

1:16:41

now to Gudikens. These guys are

1:16:43

good, right? But there's not someone

1:16:46

hanging over them with billions of

1:16:48

dollars in a bank account, huge

1:16:50

ego, and just going to country

1:16:52

clubs where his friends are asking

1:16:54

him, what's the deal with your

1:16:56

team? What's going on?

1:16:58

seeing them at yacht parties so

1:17:00

there's not as much urgency and

1:17:02

pressure as when you're just working for

1:17:04

one of these super rich guys

1:17:06

especially the older super rich guys

1:17:08

so like they can just kind

1:17:10

of slow and steady wins the race

1:17:12

and they feel the least likely

1:17:14

to ever just here's two first

1:17:16

round picks for miles garrett right

1:17:18

but if i told you andy reed

1:17:21

had traded for miles garrett be

1:17:23

like yeah totally see it or

1:17:25

howie roseman Traded for Max Crosby.

1:17:27

You're like, totally. If I told you

1:17:29

the Packers had traded for Max

1:17:31

Crosby, you'd have to do a

1:17:33

double take. You're like, no way. Now,

1:17:37

obviously those players weren't

1:17:39

available, but even like DK

1:17:41

Metcalf. Like, and

1:17:43

again, I'm not, they to me

1:17:45

make more sense than the Steelers, but

1:17:48

they would never do that. That's

1:17:50

just not what they do. And you

1:17:52

could argue like, why not? Why

1:17:54

not take some big swings? And they

1:17:56

just don't. and I do think

1:17:58

that's because there's not someone truly looking

1:18:01

over their shoulder. I know Mike

1:18:03

Murphy's retiring, but it's just not the

1:18:05

same. It's not his money. It's

1:18:07

the franchise's money. Shareholders, which I'm still

1:18:09

always a little confused how that

1:18:11

works, but clearly there's not a guy

1:18:14

that owns the team outright. I

1:18:17

can't wait for Gentee to

1:18:19

be a star and for you

1:18:22

to shut the fuck up. It's

1:18:26

funny. All I do

1:18:28

is just wonder. The

1:18:31

draft is an economic exercise.

1:18:34

So, like, Saquon Barkley went

1:18:36

number two overall. Saquon

1:18:38

Barkley is a Hall of Fame talent.

1:18:40

No one would argue that. Was it the

1:18:42

right pick for the Giants? No. Christian

1:18:46

McCaffrey went eighth overall to the

1:18:48

Carolina Panthers. Was that the right pick

1:18:50

for them? Like,

1:18:52

I love Ashton

1:18:54

Gentry. I

1:18:57

stayed up late on Saturday

1:18:59

to watch him countless times

1:19:01

play in kind of meaningless

1:19:03

Mountain West games. He

1:19:05

is a fantastic and elite player. But

1:19:07

saying like, yeah, I would draft

1:19:09

a lineman at six and then take

1:19:11

a running back in the second

1:19:13

or third round is not a shot

1:19:15

at him. It's just basic football

1:19:18

economics. And one thing, this clip I

1:19:20

did with Coward the other day, I

1:19:24

don't want to say it went viral, but

1:19:26

it just got put on a reel and

1:19:28

hundreds of thousands of people watched it and

1:19:30

people were commenting on it. And people were

1:19:32

like, this guy's an idiot. What about Jameer

1:19:34

Gibbs? Because one thing is like a 5

1:19:37

'8 running back. People are like, Barry Sanders

1:19:39

is short. So we're comparing him to Barry

1:19:41

Sanders? So it's like, okay,

1:19:43

if he becomes Barry Sanders, what's

1:19:45

the likelihood of that? It's like, well,

1:19:47

Cam Ward, if he becomes Patrick

1:19:49

Mahomes. Well, yeah, no shit. You know?

1:19:51

That's not how this works. Guess

1:19:53

what? I've been alive for 40 years.

1:19:55

You know how many Barry Sanders

1:19:57

I've seen? One. So, like,

1:19:59

Jameer Gibbs, he's 5 '9". Well, yeah,

1:20:01

I would take Ashton Gentry and Tyler

1:20:03

Warren. Because that's what the Lions got

1:20:05

with Jameer Gibbs. They traded from 6

1:20:08

to 12, and they got picked 37,

1:20:10

and they got a tight end who's

1:20:12

named Sam Laporta to go with Jameer

1:20:14

Gibbs, who, again, ran a 4 -3 -5.

1:20:16

Now maybe Ashton Gentry is a 4 -3

1:20:18

-5 guy. If you told me that

1:20:20

he had ran his 40 and ran

1:20:22

a 4 -3 -5, I would be more

1:20:24

bullish on the draft pick at 12.

1:20:27

If you told me like pick 12 -13,

1:20:29

I'm not against it. I just think

1:20:31

when we're talking about like pick 5

1:20:33

-6 -7, it seems a little extreme to

1:20:35

me. In a class

1:20:37

loaded with running backs, you can

1:20:39

get like a starter in the second

1:20:41

or third round and take my

1:20:43

starting left tackle or defensive lineman in

1:20:45

the first round. That's all I've

1:20:48

been talking about. Not that, like, this

1:20:50

guy sucks. I've never

1:20:52

said that one time. He's a really

1:20:54

good player. Awesome player.

1:20:57

But we've seen three guys get drafted

1:20:59

in recent memory in the top

1:21:01

eight. And it's been a

1:21:03

bumpy ride for the teams that drafted that

1:21:05

guy, even though we know they're all

1:21:08

sweet. Saquon with the

1:21:10

Giants. B. John Robinson is an

1:21:12

elite talent. It's like, yeah,

1:21:14

it's not working out perfectly. McCaffrey's

1:21:17

on the Niners. I've noticed

1:21:19

that over the last year

1:21:21

or so, podcasters and other

1:21:23

sports analysts are wanting to

1:21:25

talk more politics or about

1:21:27

their spiritual beliefs. Why do

1:21:29

you think that is? I

1:21:31

understand that it's their show

1:21:33

and they can talk about

1:21:35

whatever they want. I know

1:21:37

personally, I'm more likely to

1:21:39

tune in less frequently if

1:21:41

they do. This is not

1:21:43

specifically about Stephen A thinking

1:21:45

about running for president. What

1:21:48

is your take? Stephen

1:21:50

A. running for president. I do

1:21:52

think it's a pretty genius business move

1:21:55

for him. Just saying this constantly,

1:21:57

driving more people to his show, I'm

1:21:59

sure. They just paid him $100

1:22:01

million, so people can make fun of

1:22:03

him all you want. And listen,

1:22:05

I don't watch First Take, but his

1:22:07

business, I mean, he just got

1:22:10

paid $100 million by Disney. to

1:22:12

basically talk about LeBron James. That's what that show

1:22:14

is too. I noticed this whenever I'm at, the

1:22:16

only time I ever see it is I'm at

1:22:18

the gym and one of the main TVs has

1:22:20

just ESPN on. So if you go in the

1:22:22

morning, first takes is on. Everything

1:22:24

is about LeBron James. I mean, I

1:22:26

do. I'm not a LeBron

1:22:28

James guy and I fucking hate

1:22:30

the Lakers. I do understand him just

1:22:32

being like, these people talk about

1:22:34

me nonstop. Ovechkin

1:22:37

breaks the record. And

1:22:39

there was a topic

1:22:41

like what Ovechkin's record -breaking

1:22:44

goal means for LeBron James'

1:22:46

legacy. It was like,

1:22:48

this is insane. But

1:22:50

I think people in quote

1:22:52

-unquote sports media spend a

1:22:54

lot of time on Twitter.

1:22:56

Like relative to the average

1:22:58

person that just has a

1:23:00

Twitter account, I would say

1:23:02

that the majority of people,

1:23:04

and I would say political

1:23:06

media as well, people that

1:23:08

are quote -unquote in the media.

1:23:10

spend a large portion of

1:23:12

their internet going on Twitter.

1:23:14

And if you live on

1:23:16

Twitter, it can make you

1:23:18

feel that this is all

1:23:20

everyone's talking about nonstop. Sometimes

1:23:23

you're watching a Super Bowl or

1:23:25

a playoff game or whatever, the

1:23:27

Masters. It's clear. A lot of

1:23:29

people are probably paying attention to

1:23:31

this, have opinions on it. But

1:23:33

I think on a daily basis,

1:23:35

if you live in that world,

1:23:37

it can kind of convolute your

1:23:39

thinking of how aggressively people want

1:23:41

to talk about something. And

1:23:43

I think their percentage of

1:23:45

the pie chart relative to just

1:23:47

some dude that like sells

1:23:50

insurance or the electrician that just

1:23:52

came over to my house

1:23:54

to fix some screwed up things

1:23:56

in my wiring. And just,

1:23:58

I don't know, normal everyday people

1:24:00

that aren't in the media

1:24:02

that have just jobs don't spend

1:24:04

that much time and aren't

1:24:06

inundated with these thoughts. So when

1:24:08

you hear these people that,

1:24:10

let's face it, all like the

1:24:12

majority of sports media all

1:24:14

lean heavily to one side. So

1:24:16

they see their peer group

1:24:18

all agreeing with what they're saying.

1:24:20

I think they have a... I

1:24:23

just, I'm with you. I don't

1:24:25

think most people like are in

1:24:27

the mood. I think one thing

1:24:29

that people screw up and I

1:24:31

think Twitter has made most of

1:24:33

these people, it's hurt their ability

1:24:35

to just, I don't know, look

1:24:37

at something through the lens of

1:24:40

not trying to, I think groupthink

1:24:42

definitely creeps in when you spend

1:24:44

a lot of time on that

1:24:46

app. Because you're afraid to go

1:24:48

outside of the box, which let's

1:24:50

face it, most successful people kind

1:24:52

of push the envelope in any

1:24:54

industry. And that used to be

1:24:56

a huge part of media. The

1:24:59

most successful people in the space

1:25:01

and still to this day get

1:25:03

crushed on Twitter, right? And I

1:25:05

think honestly, I think that is

1:25:07

a huge, huge problem for people,

1:25:09

I guess, quote unquote, podcasters in

1:25:11

terms of talking about politics. Stephen

1:25:15

A, I mean, there's a lot of

1:25:17

money in politics, so if you just want

1:25:19

to talk about it, I guess if

1:25:21

you're using him as an example, from a

1:25:23

spiritual standpoint, I'm not quite sure I

1:25:25

follow on that one. I

1:25:27

listen to a decent amount of

1:25:29

sports stuff and don't hear

1:25:31

it that often, but maybe we're

1:25:33

just listening to different stuff.

1:25:35

But I think people just being

1:25:37

too online. I mean, I

1:25:39

really believe that. It's like, guys.

1:25:42

You guys got to get to fucking get

1:25:44

to the real world every once in

1:25:46

a while. And I think it can. It

1:25:48

definitely started the downfall of radio, sports

1:25:50

talk radio, is like 10 years

1:25:53

ago, a lot of people just

1:25:55

thought things that were big on Twitter

1:25:57

were what people wanted to hear

1:25:59

driving around in their car and just

1:26:01

not a fact. Now, some things

1:26:03

are, right? If Adam Schefter tweets, I

1:26:05

don't know, Derek Carr has been

1:26:07

traded to the Pittsburgh Steelers. Well, yeah,

1:26:09

let's talk about that. But on

1:26:11

an everyday topic and responding, the laziest

1:26:13

thing is like, well, this is

1:26:15

what people are saying. Because you saw

1:26:17

like three comments. No, don't get

1:26:19

me wrong. I like scrolling comments on

1:26:21

Instagram or whatever as much as

1:26:23

the next guy. But to think that

1:26:25

that is the subset or represents

1:26:27

human beings, I think you've got to

1:26:29

be very careful doing that. And

1:26:31

I think a lot of people make

1:26:33

that mistake. And it's why there's

1:26:35

only a small percentage of people having

1:26:37

success. on a lot of these

1:26:39

platforms and definitely would success making any

1:26:42

money because people tune off. And

1:26:44

to me, I'm with you. It's like,

1:26:47

bro, I just wanted to hear your take

1:26:49

on like the Warriors game last night. And

1:26:51

you're like going on some whatever about whatever.

1:26:53

I don't care. And one,

1:26:55

like this is entertainment. And listen, obviously there

1:26:57

are crossovers of this, but I do

1:26:59

think people lose sight of that, of the

1:27:01

entertainment factor. Like this is a release.

1:27:03

Like our lives are stressful. There's a lot

1:27:05

going on no matter what you're doing,

1:27:08

whether it's your children, whether it's your relationship,

1:27:10

whether it's the bills you have to

1:27:12

pay. I mean, the stress of like, dude

1:27:14

comes over to my house. I need

1:27:16

to do circuit breaker. I'm like, it's how

1:27:18

much? And they're just, it's just like,

1:27:20

geez. So the last thing I want to

1:27:22

do, if I'm about to take my

1:27:24

dog on a walk is list some guy

1:27:26

ranting and raving pissed off when I

1:27:28

don't even believe that he's pissed off. It's

1:27:31

like, I just think you're doing this

1:27:33

like performative art. that I think you have

1:27:35

a false sense of how many people

1:27:37

even enjoy this shit. But

1:27:39

other than that, Ashton

1:27:41

Gentry, I'm a hater. We

1:27:49

live in a divided country, and

1:27:51

our media couldn't be more polarizing. That's

1:27:53

why we started The Middle with

1:27:56

Jeremy Hobson. It's about bringing voices not

1:27:58

from the extremes, but from the

1:28:00

vast middle the national conversation. Each

1:28:02

week, we hear from ordinary Americans from

1:28:04

all over the country. And when you

1:28:06

subscribe to The you also get an

1:28:08

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1:28:10

focuses on just one item from the

1:28:12

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1:28:15

Hobson on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1:28:17

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1:28:20

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1:28:22

I'm teaming up with the King of

1:28:24

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1:28:26

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1:28:28

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