0:00

I think there's a trait amongst founders

0:02

that I'm backed where people are stubborn.

0:04

The founders tend to be stubborn. It's

0:06

what's got them there in the first

0:09

place. And so as a VC, I

0:11

think you need to like understand

0:13

that very clearly and sort

0:15

of understand the the place

0:17

that character trait plays. Welcome

0:23

back to a 40-minute mentor, the

0:26

podcast on a mission to raise

0:28

aspirations and inspire the next generation

0:30

of category-defining founders, all in just

0:33

40 minutes. Today I'm joined by

0:35

Danika Matani, partner at Cherry Ventures,

0:37

the early stage VC firm led

0:40

by a team of entrepreneurs with

0:42

experience of building fast-scaling companies such

0:44

as Zalando and Spotify. Prior to

0:47

working at Cherry Ventures, Denika worked

0:49

in investment banking, and as an

0:51

operator who was instrumental in the

0:53

establishment of Uber-Tamea, and as general

0:55

manager at Uber's jump e-bike product

0:58

in the UK. Following her time

1:00

at Uber, Denika also served as

1:02

director of finance and ops at

1:04

Climate Tech startup Kaloosa, an initiative

1:06

by the Ovo Group, which focuses

1:08

on intelligent grid technology. In today's episode,

1:11

we'll explore Danika's impressive career story, how

1:13

she moved into VC, what she looks

1:15

for when investing in founders, and some

1:17

great advice for any other operators looking

1:20

to pivot into the world adventure. So

1:22

Danika, a big warm welcome to 40-minute

1:24

mental, how are you doing? Yeah, I'm

1:26

great. No complaints. It's a big week

1:28

for us here at Cherry, and it

1:31

has been a roaring start to the

1:33

year, so if you'll... Very privileged every

1:35

day to do what I do. I'm

1:37

really glad to be here as well.

1:39

Oh, that's wonderful. I'm really excited to hear

1:42

all about your role and of course what

1:44

you've been up to at Cherry Inn. But

1:46

we're going to dive into some quick file

1:48

questions to get you warmed up just so

1:50

our listeners can get to know you. So

1:52

please finish the following sentences after me. Question

1:54

one. The best career decision I've ever made

1:56

was. I think that's the easiest question

1:59

anyone has. asked me because the

2:01

answer is so straightforward for me.

2:03

And looking back on my career,

2:05

it was 100% joining Uber. When

2:07

I did, this was in, well,

2:09

I started working with the Uber

2:11

team in 2015. When I was

2:13

an investment banker, I started working

2:15

with the team in the context

2:17

of them, you know, raising capital,

2:20

and then moved my life to

2:22

Amsterdam. joined them there. I'd never

2:24

stuck foot in Amsterdam before taking

2:26

the job and taking the role.

2:28

It was a big sort of

2:30

leap of faith that I made

2:32

in myself, but also the first

2:34

real sort of meaningful risk I

2:36

had taken in my life, and

2:38

it wasn't even that risky if

2:40

I looked back on it. So

2:42

yeah, for me, it changed the

2:45

trajectory of my career, it changed

2:47

my life in many ways, and

2:49

sort of changed just sort of

2:51

the proximity that I then had

2:53

to people who would then shape

2:55

my career and be multipliers in

2:57

sort of my life there and

2:59

going forward. Amazing. Wow. I mean,

3:01

what a what a great decision

3:03

you made and clearly has huge

3:05

impact on your life and career

3:08

and having we've had a number

3:10

of ex-uba folk on there, the

3:12

podcast, Fred Jones, Tom Elvage, Cleo

3:14

Sham, all friends of mine. It's

3:16

such a unique place and has

3:18

created this unbelievable talent pool. So

3:20

yeah, I'm excited to dig more

3:22

into that and sort of hear

3:24

more about that experience. Thank you

3:26

for sharing. The hardest lesson I've

3:28

learned as a VC is. things

3:30

take a long long long long

3:33

long time and you have to

3:35

be enduringly patient with yourself with

3:37

your capital with your founders and

3:39

sort of even though at times

3:41

you're in an environment where everyone

3:43

feels like they're in a rush

3:45

right so venture high growth high

3:47

pace you're looking for momentum but

3:49

I think the hardest lesson is

3:51

staying patient and being able to

3:53

take a step back when perhaps

3:56

others feel like they're hurting. That's

3:58

really interesting. and theme actually that's

4:00

come from other investors we found

4:02

in the podcast. So thank you

4:04

for sharing that. One misconception about

4:06

VC, I'd love to correct, is.

4:08

There are different flavors of venture

4:10

capital, right? There's very early stage

4:12

investing. There's angel investing that still

4:14

form a venture capital. There's growth

4:16

stage investing. And at every different

4:19

stage of investing in VC, the

4:21

skill set is actually very different.

4:23

So the one misconception I would

4:25

say is I think folks think

4:27

that everyone who works in VC

4:29

is an extrovert or everyone sort

4:31

of works in financial services or

4:33

knows how to crunch numbers in

4:35

some way. I mean, there are

4:37

early stage investors that I know

4:39

who have no ability to like

4:41

working in Excel and there are

4:44

late stage investors that I know

4:46

who sort of only ever work

4:48

in Excel. And so I think

4:50

the one misconception of VC is

4:52

that it's one size fits all.

4:54

There are so many different sort

4:56

of flavors of what being a

4:58

venture capitalist is, like what stage

5:00

do you invest in, what types

5:02

of companies do you invest in,

5:04

are you vertical specific, do you

5:07

invest in software only and hardware

5:09

only, and really that means like

5:11

you invest very differently. So yeah,

5:13

not one size fits all. Yeah,

5:15

that's an important myth to bust,

5:17

thank you very much. And finally,

5:19

the biggest shift I see coming

5:21

in VC is. I'm not sure

5:23

this is sort of talking my

5:25

own book necessarily, but I think

5:27

the biggest shift coming to European

5:29

venture capital certainly is the inclusion

5:32

of more ex-operators. And I would

5:34

say sort of this is a

5:36

shift that's already happened in American

5:38

venture capital. Europe is a fair

5:40

few years behind, not in a

5:42

bad way, it's just the evolution

5:44

of how technology markets work, some

5:46

markets are way more mature than

5:48

others. And you know, I think

5:50

what you've seen in the US

5:52

is sort of the creation of

5:55

large amounts of capital that has

5:57

gone to favor many individuals over

5:59

time, right? Since the day... of

6:01

sun microsystems and that sort of

6:03

formed sort of coastal ventures and

6:05

the old age of VC sort

6:07

of has always prided themselves in

6:09

in operating. You see this increasing

6:11

horror with like all the large

6:13

venture firms and I would say

6:15

that in Europe that's not yet

6:17

in the case and I say

6:20

that is very much the change.

6:22

I'm looking forward to seeing, expect

6:24

to see, would be welcome to

6:26

see because I think that makes

6:28

a better ecosystem. Couldn't agree more.

6:30

No, thank you so much for sharing.

6:32

Well, before we dig into your career

6:34

and life at Cherry Ventures, I'd love

6:37

to just find out a bit more

6:39

about what your early career aspirations were

6:41

and where this kind of love for

6:44

startups and entrepreneurialism, where did that come

6:46

from? To be honest, that wasn't sort

6:48

of an early passion of mine. I

6:50

studied mathematics in college and, you know,

6:53

wanted to be an investor from a

6:55

very, very, very, like, young time in

6:57

my career. I mean, it started... when

6:59

I started reading S-1s, like reading books

7:02

about like how Warren Buffett used to

7:04

invest, and then investing sort of my

7:06

own money in the stock market, and

7:09

then through different ways, shape, or form,

7:11

like formed views of my own personally

7:13

on investing in public markets, investing in

7:15

private markets, and it was really only

7:18

sort of after I joined Uber, I

7:20

would say probably in the first week.

7:22

that I realize that there was a

7:24

group of sort of humans and type

7:27

of people that had a completely different

7:29

level of like energy imagination and a

7:31

sense of belief in doing and being

7:33

that I hadn't yet been sort of

7:36

really exposed to in my career and

7:38

sort of when when you experience that

7:40

it hits you like a wave and

7:43

then it's a drug and sort of

7:45

that's now been about a decade and

7:47

so ten years I would say And

7:49

I would say sort of, it's a

7:52

big regret of mine in my early

7:54

career that I wasn't exposed to this

7:56

sooner. That said, no time like the

7:58

present and I had sort of of

8:01

tons of years of beautiful sort of

8:03

life experiences and career experiences that still

8:05

sort of have been able to translate

8:07

into this venture career that I've built

8:10

for myself. But maybe also the first

8:12

myth I think of these these are

8:14

people sort of in startup world is

8:17

that you have had to live this

8:19

from when you were teenagers. Like not

8:21

everyone's been coating in their bedrooms when

8:23

they were 12. Yeah, it's so true.

8:26

And as somebody that also kind of

8:28

came to this world later, albeit in

8:30

a different setting as a headhunter, it's

8:32

just as soon as I started connecting

8:35

with founders. it just I realized as

8:37

a founder myself I was like wow

8:39

this is the future this is where

8:42

I get my energy and you can

8:44

have a really unique sort of lens

8:46

from my position of placing executives into

8:48

some of these fast-growing companies and that's

8:51

a it's a really amazing space to

8:53

be in and to see those people

8:55

up close so I completely agree I'm

8:57

gutted I didn't do that earlier but

9:00

still I'm trying to make up for

9:02

it now and the last decade it's

9:04

been amazing fun you mentioned your experience

9:06

in banking financial services and how that

9:09

prepared you for the world of tech.

9:11

It was a grind, it was awful.

9:13

I mean, it was... We shared the

9:16

honesty. brutal in terms of number of

9:18

hours, the demands. It was also in

9:20

a time where like very senior managing

9:22

directors would ask me an analyst or

9:25

associate to a meeting just because they

9:27

thought I would be able to make

9:29

small talk and take a meeting in

9:31

a different direction to the one that

9:34

they anticipated in. So also in a

9:36

world where you know I worked sort

9:38

of ancillary to a trading floor and

9:41

they would invite sort of girls up

9:43

to take bets, but only sort of

9:45

the hottest girl of the month kind

9:47

of thing. So it was like it

9:50

was that time of banking. It still

9:52

exists today. And I would say for

9:54

me, it was just quite a rude

9:56

awakening to sort of the working world

9:59

and one where sort of I built

10:01

up a lot of my tough. skills,

10:03

sort of ability to say no when

10:05

no was meant to be said, but

10:08

also it was an environment where I

10:10

was always sort of pushing myself in

10:12

my own limits to doing things faster

10:15

because the work is sort of a

10:17

banking analyst and associate is very menial.

10:19

I was sort of working on your

10:21

computer for like 10 to 15 hours

10:24

a day and sort of It's not

10:26

a ton of sort of imagination in

10:28

value-added thinking. And so in understanding that

10:30

you want to be someone that learns

10:33

and things outside the box and all

10:35

of that, I used to just think

10:37

of ways that I could make my

10:39

job way easier for myself. So either

10:42

leveraging technology, trying to learn shortcuts faster

10:44

than anyone else. And so it was

10:46

foundational for sure. It trained me for

10:49

sure. And I think it taught me

10:51

resilience, like a really strong way of

10:53

just being able to navigate the corporate

10:55

world, which in itself is a skill.

10:58

And it comes in very handy today

11:00

because as part of my job is

11:02

to navigate our LP base, right? So

11:04

large endowments, banks, fund funds, folks who

11:07

give cherry money to invest. And even

11:09

though... That's a pretty intimidating world. It's

11:11

not that intimidating to me today because

11:14

it's one I used to really work

11:16

in. I'm able to navigate it. I

11:18

know the characters. I know the process.

11:20

Great. Now that's really interesting. I set

11:23

you up. for success despite it probably

11:25

not being particularly enjoyable at times. That's

11:27

definitely heard that before. Thank you for

11:29

sharing your experience. Were you left to

11:32

join Uber in 2016 and work to

11:34

Uber Eat's and on Uber's e-bike product

11:36

jump? What attracted you to Uber at

11:38

the time? Clear, you've seen them through

11:41

the banking lens, but yeah, would love

11:43

to know what made you go for

11:45

it when you did and some of

11:48

the kind of key lessons you learn

11:50

during your time there. Yeah, absolutely. Well,

11:52

the first of it was familiarity. So

11:54

I was working and was familiar with

11:57

parts of Uber's team in San Francisco.

11:59

because I was a banker and a

12:01

lot of these Uber famously hired a

12:03

lot of ex-consultants and a lot of

12:06

ex-bankers and there was a team sort

12:08

of reporting under the CFO most of

12:10

them who had jumped ship from Goldman

12:12

Sachs. So when I was working with

12:15

this team I saw parts of myself

12:17

in them and I think it's really

12:19

interesting because I as a banker I'd

12:22

worked with lots of corporate clients also

12:24

many tech companies but this was sort

12:26

of the first team that I think

12:28

demonstrated demonstrated demonstrated personality traits to one

12:31

I saw in myself. And so even

12:33

though it was a very big shift,

12:35

I took a 60% pay cut. I

12:37

looked to them as sort of like,

12:39

hey, you know, if these guys did

12:42

it, hopefully it won't be so unfamiliar

12:44

for me coming from an extremely corporate

12:46

environment and going to one that's fast-paced.

12:48

And then I would say the interview

12:50

process and sort of talking to people

12:53

also made me understand how magnetic. the

12:55

company was for other humans and

12:57

individuals. And I was also privileged

12:59

enough to be able to see

13:01

some growth charts when I was

13:03

on the other side of Uber.

13:05

And so I was like, well, At

13:07

the very least, this is going to be

13:10

a very fun experience. But I will

13:12

say that when I joined Uber, my

13:14

role was a multifaceted. I worked on

13:16

many different things at many different times.

13:18

So a part of my role was

13:20

working with the Uber Russia business. I

13:22

was also running pricing for Europe, the

13:24

Middle East and Africa. And all of

13:26

that was sort of, you know, strategic.

13:28

And with every one of sort of

13:30

my role transitions at Uber, I would

13:33

say, like within the company, I have

13:35

the best mentors, some of the leadership

13:37

team, like from my boss who was

13:39

based initially in Amsterdam, but then San

13:41

Francisco, who would give me an opportunity

13:43

that was probably like three times bigger

13:45

than the one I had at the

13:47

time and said, run with it. And I

13:50

would be like, are you sure? And

13:52

they would just be like, just run

13:54

with it. And I got promoted at

13:56

Uber four times, you know, was in

13:58

rooms, not just with, you know, Cleo

14:00

and Tom and the like, but like,

14:02

you know, folks at the board level

14:04

who are making very strategic decisions at

14:07

the company for the company. And I

14:09

would say sort of, it was the

14:11

definition for me of like pure meritocracy

14:13

because I worked pretty much more than

14:16

I did as a banker, I would

14:18

say, which is funny thinking about it,

14:20

but my job satisfaction was probably 10

14:23

times higher. And if your question was

14:25

sort of how I moved like into

14:27

these different sort of rules, I think

14:29

that the truth is with high growth

14:32

companies, there's typically way more opportunity than

14:34

typically meets the eye. There's always sort

14:36

of new business lines, new product lines.

14:38

And if you're an enterprising person and

14:41

you can spot any of this opportunity,

14:43

it can typically be yours for grams.

14:45

So true. It's why it's such a

14:47

great move. We often get... We also

14:50

speak to candidates that are looking to

14:52

pivot out of consulting or banking and

14:54

make that move in. And I think

14:56

you tend to be able to see

14:59

the few that like the idea but

15:01

wouldn't actually be that effective in that

15:03

environment versus the ones that really would

15:05

thrive. Because with those that it's right

15:08

for, it really is just, it opens

15:10

so many doors. For sure. That said,

15:12

I think you need to be in

15:14

the right time of your life though.

15:17

Absolutely. I'm not sure I would have

15:19

been able to make that now with

15:21

like two kids because you need to

15:23

make a lot of personal sacrifices when

15:26

you take a role like that. But

15:28

for a certain time in life, it

15:30

is the perfect opportunity. totally agree yeah

15:33

thank you well you've ultimately you know

15:35

had a very successful time at Uber

15:37

and then made this transition into VC

15:39

in 2021 when you joined Cherry Ventures

15:42

so why did that move come about

15:44

when it did and what was it

15:46

about Cherry that really stood out to

15:48

you yeah 100% so I was navigating

15:51

sort of the moves and my passion

15:53

as I mentioned was always in sort

15:55

of investing as an intellectual topic and

15:57

so an Uber started advising some of

16:00

my colleagues who then became founders on

16:02

like starting their companies, helping them build

16:04

their pitch decks, business plans, that happened

16:06

pretty organically and then started organically writing

16:09

angel investing checks at the time into

16:11

ideas, founders, people that I thought had

16:13

the right combination of household drive and

16:15

business ideas. And so angel investing was

16:18

something I was doing on the side

16:20

and a number of my ex-uber colleagues

16:22

in the States. had made the transition

16:24

into venture capital. And so we're also

16:27

telling me, hey, you know, I think

16:29

this could be like amazing for you.

16:31

And why don't you explore this in

16:34

Europe? And now at the time, a

16:36

lot of people were also like, You

16:38

should never join a European firm. They're

16:40

way more conservative. They don't take enough

16:43

risk. You'd just be bored. Most of

16:45

them are sort of career VCs anyways.

16:47

And so it would be, you know,

16:49

a much different pace for you. And

16:52

so initially I had understood that and

16:54

started just continuing angel investing and I

16:56

thought I would be a career sort

16:58

of angel investor. maybe take like a

17:01

sea level role at a scale up

17:03

and sort of move down that that

17:05

direction. So then started getting sort of

17:07

lots of inbounds from BCs and recruiters

17:10

who were mentioning that people were looking

17:12

for folks with operating experience and folks

17:14

some folks had seen you on cap

17:16

tables right because I was angel investing.

17:19

And so the story has been told

17:21

before but I suppose I started talking

17:23

to everyone in the industry, but I

17:25

think what was super important for me

17:28

was I gave myself a year because

17:30

I wanted to make a transition. The

17:32

most important thing I understood about venture

17:35

from sort of everyone I had spoken

17:37

to and all the desktop research had

17:39

done is that this is like a

17:41

long game. This is not like an

17:44

operating gig where you can go in

17:46

there, sort of make impact into years

17:48

and then sort of leave. And so

17:50

you need to be a hundred percent.

17:53

very close to it sure about the

17:55

fit. and about sort of the style

17:57

of investing, coming back to my first

17:59

point. So what stage are you comfortable

18:02

in? Are you numbers literate? Like what

18:04

kind of investor are you? What stage

18:06

do you want to invest in? Do

18:08

you want to work for European firms?

18:11

Do you want to work for a

18:13

US firm? Is being a partner important

18:15

for you? How much capital do you

18:17

have to have capital at all? And

18:20

so the other question was like, do

18:22

you want to start your own fund?

18:24

Do you have aspirations to start your

18:26

own funds? And for me, I think

18:29

at the stage of life that I

18:31

was at, I was looking to make

18:33

sort of a longer-term commitment on a

18:35

path. And so that's why I gave

18:38

myself that time. Why Cherry? It was

18:40

plainly obvious to me that there was

18:42

a big opportunity in Europe where there

18:45

weren't operator-led venture funds, and in my

18:47

view, that was Alpha. like alpha just

18:49

by creation of the concept really. And

18:51

then if you think of, and yes,

18:54

the world has changed since then and

18:56

there are more of us, that said,

18:58

the ability to do this and sort

19:00

of run a firm but not a

19:03

fund and do that well by being

19:05

sort of really thoughtful and then backing

19:07

companies that become global companies with our

19:09

model was something I wanted to be

19:12

a part of. So. The other opportunity

19:14

with Cherry was that I would be

19:16

setting up their UK presence, opening their

19:18

UK office, and sort of having a

19:21

bit of an entrepreneurial part of my

19:23

job that I couldn't say no to,

19:25

because again, the impact that that would

19:27

create and sort of what I knew

19:30

from my time at Uber and sort

19:32

of extrapolating that going forward, if I'm

19:34

that on myself and that was successful,

19:36

could be massive. And so it was

19:39

a no-brainer, but it took me a

19:41

long way to get to that. Yeah,

19:43

Dwight, it certainly, you picked the right

19:46

horse, it hurt the back of the

19:48

right horse, and clearly there's a lot

19:50

of, I've seen this from operators looking

19:52

to move into VC. it can take

19:55

a long time. As you know, a

19:57

few people that it's taken years of

19:59

conversations, they eventually got into the right

20:01

role, but you have to, it is

20:04

something you commit to for, you know,

20:06

you have to do the time and

20:08

have the conversation and really think deeply

20:10

about what it is you're going after.

20:13

And clearly, it's what's successfully for you,

20:15

Danika, which is great to see. I think if you

20:17

think back to that transition, I guess we want to try

20:19

and help any other operators that, you know, you know, really

20:21

love the sound of the sound of the sound of the

20:23

sound of the sound of the journey, you've been on. that

20:26

want to make this move into VC.

20:28

So what advice would you share with

20:30

them? Perhaps anything you may be found

20:32

harder or just things that you think

20:34

they should be thinking about as they

20:36

go into that transition in their career?

20:38

Yeah, 100%. I think there are a

20:40

couple of really big things. The first

20:43

is you're kind of working by yourself

20:45

as a VC. You don't have the

20:47

benefit of a team. And so while

20:49

of course I have a team now

20:51

at Jerry and we spar far a

20:53

lot, in reality, most of my work

20:55

is solo. I'm talking to founders by

20:57

myself, I'm thinking by myself, I'm coming

21:00

up with investment, thesis by myself, and

21:02

like I say for sure, with the support

21:04

of a team, but really founders want to

21:06

pick me to back them to be

21:08

their board member, of course with the

21:10

support of the cherry brand, the rust

21:12

of the cherry partnership, but the nature

21:15

of the job is solo and it can

21:17

be lonely if you don't have a

21:19

community to sort of go on the

21:21

journey with you. So that's the first

21:23

thing and it's like a really really

21:26

big thing also in the transition from

21:28

being an operator. The second thing is

21:30

like I mentioned time to value or

21:32

time to like seeing your own success

21:35

while obviously people know this in their

21:37

head that it takes a little bit

21:39

of time. I think there have been

21:42

people that I've seen in venture do

21:44

this for 10 years, 12 years with

21:46

no sort of big signs of success

21:48

that continue to do it. I

21:50

think that's fine. But I think you

21:52

also need to be truthful for yourself

21:55

when you're making the switch from operator

21:57

to VC and like give yourself a

21:59

couple of... like real milestones, because it

22:01

could shock you at the end of

22:03

it, when you sort of put in

22:06

the time and you're like, oh, wait,

22:08

what? Like, I spent all this time

22:10

and is it gonna be worth it?

22:13

And so after sort of two years,

22:15

three years, understanding how many companies you've

22:17

invested in, how many opportunities you've won,

22:20

how many you've lost, why you've lost

22:22

them, how many markups you've gotten, how

22:24

your companies are doing, like assessing your

22:27

own portfolio portfolio. and then seeing like

22:29

if that's scalable for sort of the

22:31

next three years next three years and

22:34

being able to like determine success your

22:36

own way is super important like no

22:38

one as an operator that's so clear

22:41

like you see your own results sometimes

22:43

within weeks and as a VC you

22:45

have to set that for yourself because

22:48

no one's really going to do that

22:50

for you sometimes in Cherry's case we

22:52

discussed that as part of my my

22:55

onboarding at Cherry, my continued progression at

22:57

Cherry, and like my promotion. So being

22:59

metrics driven in BC and sort of

23:01

understanding what success looks like is very

23:04

rare. And that's what I've understood through

23:06

folks asking me about my journey and

23:08

me okay me talking about it. I

23:11

think the one sort of biggest differentiator

23:13

has been just being able to be

23:15

super clear about what progress looks like

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24:20

back to today's 40-minute mentor. Cherry

24:26

Ventures has backed some really well-known companies

24:28

across Europe, Flixbus, Tour Radar, Infarn, one

24:31

of JVM's long-standing clients' manual. Can you

24:33

share a bit more about the fund's

24:35

investment thesis? And I guess what founders

24:38

are a great fit for Cherry Ventures,

24:40

because I'm sure there's going to be

24:42

people listening to this, wanting to pitch

24:44

to you and impress you, so we'd

24:47

love to know what helps them stand

24:49

out from the crowd. Yeah 100 percent.

24:51

We're drawn by ambition, like raw. ambition.

24:54

Founders that will break down doors to

24:56

get things done. Founders that have global

24:58

ambition, founders that understand that when they

25:01

work with Cherry, they get a partner

25:03

who's going to drive them to be

25:05

even more ambitious, then they can imagine

25:08

themselves. And ultimately, you know, folks are

25:10

willing to take big risk, but create

25:12

sort of generational companies. And so I

25:15

think of founders when you ask me

25:17

the question, and it's really easy to

25:19

point to what that means. I recently

25:22

backed a team based on the Baltics.

25:24

When I asked them what success means

25:26

to them, it's creating generational wealth for

25:29

everyone in their country. And when someone

25:31

is so clear about sort of impact

25:33

that they want to make from sort

25:36

of their tiny startup that's barely doing

25:38

any revenue, yeah, that's super compelling. And

25:40

when they have a clear path to

25:43

understanding how they'll get there is even

25:45

more compelling. And you know what? You

25:47

don't always have to have sort of

25:50

a grand ambition, but sometimes it's just

25:52

enough to just be... raw in your

25:54

determination and ambition to just make something

25:57

successful, right? If you've been under-loved in

25:59

the past and that's something we see

26:01

often as well. I love that. Thank

26:04

you so much. And I guess on

26:06

the flip side, what turns you off?

26:08

What are the things that kind of

26:11

fanders get wrong when they're pitching to

26:13

you? I suppose it's asking for too

26:15

much money up front when they don't

26:18

have things to back it up with.

26:20

And so, you know, we see many

26:22

pitches where someone's asking for eight, nine

26:24

million... And when we're asking why, I

26:27

have like very loosey-goosey ideas around like,

26:29

why? Because pedigree founders sometimes can raise

26:31

that kind of money. They just do.

26:34

I think there's one thing of being

26:36

ambitious and there's another thing of understanding

26:38

sort of what you want to do

26:41

with the money and understanding how you

26:43

want to use the money. And obviously

26:45

it's a completely different story if you're

26:48

raising eight million, but completely have a

26:50

clear idea like how you want to.

26:52

though the company grow the company and

26:55

take it to sort of at 10x

26:57

different level, then if we gave you

26:59

two or three. And then the other

27:02

turn off for me is founders who

27:04

don't listen at all. And what I

27:06

mean by that is I think there's

27:09

a trait amongst founders that I have

27:11

backed where people are stubborn. The founders

27:13

tend to be stubborn. It's what's got

27:16

them there in the first place. And

27:18

so as a BC, I think you

27:20

need to... like understand that very clearly

27:23

and sort of understand the the place

27:25

that character trait plays. But at the

27:27

same time I think, particularly for a

27:30

lot of first-time founders, you know, we've

27:32

seen quite a lot from either portfolio

27:34

company examples or our own journeys that

27:37

we're happy to share. And yeah, I

27:39

think for me it's if someone completely

27:41

dismisses you without reasons for the sake

27:44

of it, that for me is also

27:46

not great because at the end of

27:48

the day like we want to see

27:51

founders for and entrepreneurs who are multipliers,

27:53

who are happy to multiply themselves over

27:55

time, grow, develop, like be a sponge

27:57

of information, be a sponge of feedback.

28:00

And that's a really important trait. It's

28:02

very rare, obviously, that you find someone

28:04

that's perfect, that has all these traits.

28:07

And so I think the ante of

28:09

that trait is, you know, when you

28:11

hear someone who basically just argues with

28:14

you all the time, even from the

28:16

off, and does it, even though you

28:18

have something really great to add sometimes,

28:21

potentially. Yeah, totee, thank you for showing

28:23

that. Important advice for anyone listening that

28:25

might end up in front of you,

28:28

so thank you. You were promoted to

28:30

partner earlier last year, which is obviously

28:32

an amazing achievement and very well serves.

28:35

Can you share a bit more about

28:37

your transition from principle to partner and

28:39

your advice for anyone that might be

28:42

maybe NBC at the moment seeking to

28:44

follow a similar path? How did you

28:46

go about doing it? Yeah, so there

28:49

is some difference between the roles. I

28:51

say as a partner, you're managing the

28:53

firm. alongside doing investments, alongside building your

28:56

brand, alongside all of the other things

28:58

you do. So the job only gets

29:00

a little bit harder. The other important

29:03

thing as a partner is like, you're

29:05

committing to the firm, just also buy

29:07

signal and buy capital, because you know,

29:10

most partners buy into the firm. And

29:12

so that's a really important thing for

29:14

people to know and understand. And the

29:17

reason for that is because LPs want

29:19

to see that you have commitment. and

29:21

commitment means many things because they're backing

29:24

you right to run sort of a

29:26

fund iteration for 10 years. So that's

29:28

a difference. The other difference is you

29:30

broadly have to be representing the firm

29:33

at all times rather than just yourself.

29:35

And while sort of that I was

29:37

already doing most of that as a

29:40

principle, it just becomes much, much more

29:42

visible, you know, when you're a partner.

29:44

I would say those are the main

29:47

differences in terms of sort of... what

29:49

helped the transition or what got me

29:51

there. It's what I mentioned in the

29:54

past, which is I think being very

29:56

clear about what you need in each

29:58

of the roles to succeed, what succeeding

30:01

as a principle look like. And for

30:03

me, to be honest, like, given that

30:05

I knew that I wanted to build

30:08

a long-term career in venture and at

30:10

Cherry, for me, the first year was

30:12

a confirmatory experience. It was, what do

30:15

I need to do in order to

30:17

show that I can sort of do

30:19

the job really well? And what would

30:22

that mean? And so I think that

30:24

clarity at every fund means something different,

30:26

but I think having that very clearly

30:29

defined for me. was important and vital,

30:31

otherwise it would have been so hard

30:33

to know sort of if you're doing

30:36

well in a job that like is

30:38

pretty nebulous with long cycles of affirmation

30:40

and validation. Yeah, yeah, that's really helpful.

30:43

Thank you very much. It's no secret

30:45

that VC still has a little bit

30:47

of a way to go when it

30:50

comes to promoting and hiring more diverse

30:52

talent into senior positions, but it... there

30:54

is a shift but I think there's

30:57

still lots more that can be done.

30:59

So what do you think that needs

31:01

to happen in this, I guess both

31:03

the VC and and tech ecosystems to

31:06

see more diverse representation? Yeah, I think

31:08

it's something that everyone needs to champion.

31:10

I will take a step back and

31:13

just reflect on from the moment I

31:15

joined Uber all the way till today.

31:17

My biggest internal champions at all of

31:20

these organizations have been men. None of

31:22

them have been women. And so I

31:24

think that there needs to be, of

31:27

course, and I do this sort of

31:29

very visibly and very audibly in the

31:31

sense of like supporting women entrepreneurs, funding

31:34

women entrepreneurs, allowing them to have the

31:36

opportunity to take risk so that they

31:38

can see what the journey is like

31:41

and then be able to build their

31:43

next company which might be even better

31:45

than their first one and getting the

31:48

flywheel going. But I would say there

31:50

have been a lot of really great

31:52

steps in the direction of angel investing

31:55

programs, syndicates that are meant to get

31:57

sort of investors in and on the

31:59

journey early, right? If you have a

32:02

little bit of capital, I've sold a

32:04

little bit of money in a secondary

32:06

round, if you're a scale up, you

32:09

should be sort of looking to get

32:11

in on experiencing what it is to

32:13

be an angel investor on the cap

32:16

table and then maybe you want to

32:18

professionalize that over time. And how do

32:20

we convince women to take more risk

32:22

earlier in their careers and that working

32:24

at a start-up or scale up? is not

32:27

that much more risky than working

32:29

as a consultant. And so there's

32:31

quite a lot of education to

32:33

be done. And I would say

32:35

I've been really positively surprised that

32:38

the industry has evolved hugely since

32:40

even I joined definitely since when

32:42

I was recruiting in that there

32:44

are countless number. a very senior,

32:46

very capable women who are in

32:48

my orbit who continue to allow

32:50

me to do my job well.

32:52

And I think that will only

32:54

get better and stronger in our

32:56

sort of in our cherry office

32:58

in London. I have an associate

33:00

who's male, everyone else on the team

33:03

is female. And sort of things are

33:05

certainly moving in the right direction. What

33:07

can people do? I think more of

33:10

the same. I would say even though

33:12

there is a shift in the other

33:14

direction now. promoting diversity, promoting equality, bringing

33:16

up people who have not been sort

33:19

of brought up sort of in the

33:21

past decades is no longer like an

33:23

outward priority. I would say if folks

33:25

want to do it now, it's because

33:28

they want a better world for

33:30

themselves and their daughters and less

33:32

from sort of a mandate standpoint,

33:34

which I think is going to shift,

33:36

right? We're going to see a lot

33:38

fewer mandate-based decision making. Thank you

33:40

so much for sharing. With Sadly, at

33:43

an end, we got our two final

33:45

wrap-up questions. I've really enjoyed this conversation,

33:47

Denise, so thank you again for being

33:49

a fortunate mentor. And that's the name

33:51

of this podcast. So I have to

33:54

ask, if you could be mentored by anyone

33:56

dead or alive, who would it be and

33:58

why? This is a tricky question. Because I'm

34:00

drawn to folks who have experienced failure

34:03

in some way, shape, or form, and

34:05

who have experienced sort of ups

34:07

and downs, and whose careers have not

34:09

been linear themselves, but also people who

34:12

are enigmatic. In technology, I would have

34:14

to say the person who stands out

34:16

most to me is Steve Jobs, like

34:19

being able to be mentored by him.

34:21

would only push me to greatness a

34:23

hundred times bigger than what I know.

34:26

And I think that there are people

34:28

who see sort of things that other

34:30

people don't and you always want to

34:33

be in those books orbits. So yeah,

34:35

it would be Steve Jobs. Okay, that's

34:37

great, great answer. And finally, what is

34:40

one final piece of career or life

34:42

advice that you'd like to leave our

34:44

listeners with today? Take a risk on

34:47

yourself, believe in yourself and your abilities

34:49

because for the most part, you're underselling

34:51

yourself always and I feel like even

34:54

when I meet the most brilliant people

34:56

most of them you know sell themselves

34:58

short of their potential and I've only

35:01

seen that sort of in myself right

35:03

like sometimes you need other people to

35:05

believe in you and when you don't

35:08

believe in yourself and I've seen this

35:10

in my career so many times but

35:12

in reality if you don't have those

35:15

champions and many people don't you have

35:17

to do it yourself. So whether

35:19

it is being an entrepreneur, whether it's

35:21

like trying to go out on a

35:24

limb and find a co-founder, that you've

35:26

never dreamed of sort of approaching, whether

35:28

it is taking whatever sort of risk

35:31

that you want by backing yourself. Like

35:33

I used the word multiplier a lot,

35:35

but the word is sort of the

35:38

most important word that I think I've

35:40

learned in my career when thinking about

35:42

my career trajectory, because when something has

35:45

worked, it's never been like one. plus

35:47

one. It's always been a one times

35:49

10 and I think you always want

35:52

to be looking for opportunities like that.

35:54

Such a great piece of advice to

35:56

leave us with thank you so much.

35:59

it's been an absolute pleasure and privilege.

36:01

Wishing you and the charity too more

36:03

the very best for the year ahead,

36:06

it sounds like there's lots of exciting

36:08

things in store and yeah, thank you

36:10

for being a 40-minute mentor today. Thank

36:13

you. Cheers, thanks so much. Thank you

36:15

so much for tuning into today's episode.

36:17

I really hope that you found it

36:20

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36:22

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36:24

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36:27

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37:08

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