0:00

Hi. We

0:03

did not

0:05

do it, Joe. Hello,

0:13

hello, and welcome back

0:15

to A Bit Fruity.

0:17

I'm Matt Bernstein. Thank

0:19

you for being here. It's been

0:21

a long week. During Donald

0:23

Trump's acceptance speech, he allowed

0:25

Dana White, the founder of

0:27

UFC Fighting, which I had

0:29

to Google, to take the

0:32

stage. Standing on stage with

0:34

Donald Trump's family in a

0:36

room full of the campaign's

0:38

most important and influential donors,

0:40

you know, Republican politicians, various

0:42

billionaires, Elon Musk, Dana White

0:44

thanked the young male influencers

0:46

who so effectively turned out

0:48

the young male vote for

0:50

Donald Trump. I want to thank

0:52

some people real quick. I want

0:54

to thank the Nel boys, Aiden

0:56

Ross, Theo Vaughn, bustle with the

0:58

boys, and last but not least,

1:01

the mighty and powerful Joe Rogan. And

1:04

turn out the young male vote

1:07

they did. According to CBS exit

1:09

polls, Trump won male voters under

1:11

the age of 30 by

1:13

18 points this year, which is

1:15

the same demographic that Biden won

1:17

by 18 points in 2020. Who

1:20

are these young men influencing other

1:22

young men to the far right?

1:24

What can the left do to

1:26

better reach these men? And how

1:28

did an ideology about masculinity and

1:30

women once relegated to the

1:32

seedy corners of 4chan creep its

1:35

way into the mainstream? As

1:37

always on this show, whenever we're

1:39

talking about the internet and

1:41

politics, I ring up my friend

1:43

and yours, Taylor Lorenz. Taylor,

1:46

welcome back to the show. Thanks

1:48

for having me. And

1:50

since you were last here,

1:52

you have become an independent

1:54

journalist officially. Yes, officially. Taylor is

1:56

such an incredible journalist doing such

1:58

great work. is not an easy thing

2:00

to go out on your own

2:02

as a freelancer. It's what I do

2:05

as a job and takes, takes

2:07

balls. So congratulations, Taylor. Thank you so

2:09

much, I'm so happy. Are

2:11

you excited to talk about the young

2:13

men? Yes, let's speak to the men. Which

2:16

is something I don't do a lot

2:18

on this podcast, but boys, I'm speaking to

2:20

you. Gentle men? Gentle men and gentle

2:22

men. If you would like to support the

2:24

show, would like more of the show,

2:26

would like more of my post -election thoughts,

2:28

which totally understandable if you don't want to

2:30

listen to anything about the election anymore.

2:32

But in case you do, you can get

2:34

all of that on my Patreon, which

2:36

will also be linked in the bio. You're

2:39

so demure with your like, thanks for

2:41

having me. Thanks for having me. Whenever we

2:43

do episodes together, we always end up

2:45

like yelling and screaming about shit. But at

2:47

the beginning. It starts so calm and

2:49

then I'm like, and by the way, fuck

2:51

that person. I

2:55

think we'll get there quickly. I

2:57

think we'll get there quickly. Yeah, this

2:59

is a triggering subject. The portion

3:01

of the internet that has become enormous,

3:04

that has enraptured the young men

3:06

of America, is generally referred to as

3:08

the manosphere. And this is going

3:10

to be an episode about the manosphere.

3:12

It's going to be an episode

3:14

about the people who run it, about

3:16

the young men who receive it

3:18

and where they're at in life, and

3:21

why we've seen this wild right -wing

3:23

shift among young men in this

3:25

very recent election. It's going to be

3:27

about what the left can and

3:29

can't do to combat it and why.

3:31

And I think before we actually

3:33

explore the manosphere itself, Taylor, tell me

3:36

what you think about this. I

3:38

think it makes sense to start with

3:40

incels. Yeah, I agree. Can you

3:42

tell me a little about the incel

3:44

movement? I, I, this is one

3:46

that I can do on my own,

3:48

but I, you know. Let's chime

3:50

in and we can do it together.

3:53

Well, the incel movement is the,

3:55

it stands for involuntary celibate movement. It's

3:57

sort of become its own identity

3:59

almost outside of that though. I started

4:01

with these communities of mostly young

4:03

men online who, felt really rejected by

4:05

women and essentially felt like it

4:07

was impossible for them to get sex

4:10

from women or the type of

4:12

connection from women that they wanted. So

4:14

they would gather in these communities

4:16

that essentially became more and more radicalized

4:18

and misogynistic. Yeah, incel as a

4:20

term was originated in the 90s, ironically

4:22

by a queer woman. Yes, which

4:25

is very funny. It is very funny

4:27

because incels are not generally associated

4:29

with lesbians today, but it really took

4:31

off online in the 2010s on

4:33

websites like Reddit, but also on 4chan

4:35

and 8chan. Which can you explain

4:37

4chan and 8chan because those are websites

4:39

that I actually really can't explain.

4:42

Yeah, 4chan is a message board that's

4:44

completely unmoderated. It's considered the front

4:46

page of the internet because throughout the

4:48

aughts it's where a lot of

4:50

early internet forum users gathered. It's kind

4:52

of like an earlier version of

4:54

Reddit almost. Reddit's like the much, much

4:56

more sanitized 4chan and then 8chan

4:59

is actually even more extreme than 4chan.

5:01

And then you have a lot

5:03

of incel forums now that really cropped

5:05

up in the 2010s too that

5:07

are just solely dedicated to incel ideology

5:09

that are their own almost like offshoots

5:11

of 4chan and 8chan. And the

5:13

thing, look, we've all had points of

5:15

insecurity in our lives. We've all

5:18

had probably points where we're wondering, especially

5:20

when you're in middle school, high

5:22

school, am I sexually desirable? How do

5:24

I become sexually desirable? But these

5:26

young men online, they form identities around

5:28

not getting laid for reasons that

5:30

they believe are entirely out of control.

5:32

Like their height, their voice, their

5:34

head shape. The thing is, if it

5:36

stopped there, then it's like, okay,

5:38

you're just a very insecure teenage boy,

5:40

lots of teenage people are. But

5:43

they blame women for all of their

5:45

problems. And that's I think what

5:47

is the hallmark of the incel ideology

5:49

is that the reason you can't

5:51

be happy as a young man is

5:53

because women are doing this to

5:55

you. They're also against... like gay people

5:57

generally too, and let the LGBTQ

5:59

world, but it's very like traditional, like

6:01

they believe that sort of like

6:03

every man deserves a woman. And you

6:05

know, me not being able to

6:08

have one is, is like against my

6:10

rights as a man. Right. There

6:12

are two terms that I want to

6:14

introduce here. And it's these are

6:16

really the reasons why I wanted to

6:18

start with the incel movement, the

6:20

red pill and the black pill. Taylor,

6:22

would you would you like to

6:24

take the red pill? Don't

6:27

take the red pill, but you

6:29

like to explain the red pill? The

6:31

red pill blue pill framework is something

6:33

that actually kind of came from The

6:35

Matrix, which was this movie that came

6:37

out 20, 30 years ago. Ironically created

6:39

by two trans women. Also, they've really

6:42

wrought a lot of society. It's just

6:44

very funny. I think the matrix is

6:46

kind of similar to American psycho where

6:48

like a lot of men don't realize

6:50

it's almost like a parody of a

6:52

certain type of thinking. But the red

6:54

pill blue pill thing, it was this

6:57

framework in that movie where it's like,

6:59

do you want to take the blue

7:01

pill and just live in the matrix

7:03

and go along sort of blind to

7:05

the realities of the world? Or do

7:07

you want to take the red pill,

7:10

which sort of awakens you and you

7:12

can escape the matrix and all of

7:14

that? The black pill is kind of

7:16

emerged like out of that where it's

7:18

it's almost further than the red pill.

7:20

You're just a nihilist. You're sort of

7:22

like a deep nihilist and nothing matters

7:25

almost. It's like, you know, if you're

7:27

blackpilled on something, it's like, it's a

7:29

fuck it kind of energy. Yeah. And

7:31

so in in cell forums, the red

7:33

pill was basically like accepting the reality

7:35

that like, you know, men are being

7:38

left behind, feminism has gone too far,

7:40

women are never going to need you

7:42

or want you. And then the black

7:44

pill was like, none of this can

7:46

or will ever change. You're hopeless. You

7:48

are destined for a life of sexual

7:50

and romantic loneliness. And there's no reason

7:53

for you to be on earth, essentially.

7:55

This is the belief that's, you know,

7:57

spreading throughout the 2010s and these like

7:59

Reddit and four -chan and eight -chan threads.

8:01

And it's a small number

8:03

of men who are consuming it

8:05

in proportion to like all

8:08

of the men in the world.

8:10

But it is tens of

8:12

thousands of young men and really

8:14

usually boys in these threads.

8:16

And the reason why most of

8:18

the world was first introduced

8:20

to incels as a concept was

8:22

because they produced so many

8:25

mass shooters. The kind of hallmark

8:27

event of early incel culture

8:29

was the Isla Vista shootings where

8:31

Elliot Roger, a 22 year old

8:33

living in California, he uploaded

8:35

a video from his car like

8:37

a vlog style video on

8:40

May 23rd, 2014, expressing his desire

8:42

to seek revenge on women

8:44

who were rejecting him. He emailed

8:46

a 137 page manifesto to

8:48

his family detailing his gripes with

8:50

being a virgin, drove to

8:52

University of California, Santa Barbara with

8:55

a semi -automatic pistol and killed

8:57

six people. Incels for

8:59

a long time on the internet

9:01

were kind of a punchline really.

9:03

I mean, it's like miserable and

9:05

in rare cases violent, miserable young

9:07

boys who developed this like paranoia

9:09

around their vacant sex lives. And

9:11

usually incels were just the butt

9:13

of jokes, right? Like you sound

9:15

like an incel, you're behaving like

9:17

an incel. They were totally jokes.

9:19

And also you just saw it mocked.

9:21

I think people forgot what incels

9:23

actually were because it just kind of

9:25

became part of pop culture. It

9:27

was like, oh, furries, incels, you

9:30

know, pro -anna, Twitter or whatever. It's

9:32

like, it just became another one

9:34

of these sort of communities online

9:36

that became the butt of a lot

9:38

of memes and jokes and stuff throughout the

9:40

second half of the 2010s. But while

9:42

that was happening, they were gaining ground.

9:45

Ironically, I think them becoming the

9:47

joke kind of mainstreamed them

9:49

into culture in a way. Like

9:52

ironically first and then not so.

9:55

Yeah, because it all starts ironically with

9:57

a lot of stuff, right? And then

9:59

you also had The first Trump presidency

10:01

where suddenly you had a lot

10:03

of these people that were leaders

10:05

in these communities feeling really emboldened,

10:07

you saw content creators sort of

10:09

flirting with this type of ideology,

10:11

you know, just a lot of

10:13

extremists buying into it again because

10:15

Trump's first presidency was deeply misogynistic,

10:17

like it was a very misogynistic

10:19

sort of campaign and vibe to

10:21

that whole movement. So I think

10:23

incels kind of gained a toehold

10:26

in the political sphere and the

10:28

cultural sphere during that time. Okay.

10:30

I think it makes sense to talk about Andrew Tate right

10:32

now. I think we should talk

10:34

about Andrew Tate because he's one

10:36

of these people that ultimately like

10:38

this soup of male energy online

10:40

sort of male hatred bubbling up

10:42

on the internet throughout the second

10:44

half of the 2010s really paved

10:46

the way for the explosion of

10:48

these hateful male incel influencers for

10:50

lack of a better word. And so

10:52

as incels are becoming a punchline and

10:54

no one's really taking them seriously, King incel

10:57

emerges in the shape of Andrew Tate.

10:59

I feel like I probably don't need to

11:01

introduce Andrew Tate too extensively because there's

11:03

a great chance that you probably know who

11:05

he is. But as is the tradition

11:07

on this podcast, I always do like a

11:09

little bit of explaining a little bit

11:11

of background because there is someone who blissfully

11:13

doesn't know who Andrew Tate is. And

11:16

I am so sorry to take that bliss

11:18

away from you right now. Let me find

11:20

out. was going to look up where he's from. Where

11:23

is he from? There's like

11:25

not a clear answer. He was raised in Chicago.

11:28

I don't. He has that weird accent, though. He's

11:30

from I don't know. Maybe he moved to the UK when

11:32

he was really young. We'll get into it. Well,

11:34

it doesn't really matter, honestly. Andrew Tate is an

11:36

influencer. The point is

11:38

his ancestry. Where

11:41

is Andrew Tate is an

11:43

influencer who emerged really, I would

11:45

say, in the early pandemic

11:47

days, although he had been on

11:49

the internet prior to that

11:51

as this sort of like the

11:53

king of misogyny on the

11:55

internet. He's he and his brother,

11:57

Tristan, live these lavish lives

11:59

in. in Europe. He was living in Romania

12:02

primarily, although I think he's originally

12:04

American. He's a very strange accent.

12:06

Where he's kind of, I would

12:08

consider him a sort of successor

12:10

to Dan Blazerian. Dan Blazerian was

12:12

known as the king of Instagram

12:14

in the 2010s. He's this like

12:16

hypermuscular masculine guy who was always

12:18

surrounded by like, you know, 10

12:20

porn stars or whatever. Andrew Tate

12:22

kind of took that on. He

12:24

started this thing called Hustler's University

12:27

in 2021. make you rich. It

12:29

really blended sort of like self

12:31

mythology around him and his brother with

12:33

like get rich quick schemes, crypto, he

12:35

was pumping really early, and basically told

12:38

men, especially young men, exactly what they

12:40

want to hear, which is that women

12:42

are to blame for all of your

12:44

problems, the woke agendas against you, women

12:47

are keeping you down, your bitch mom

12:49

won't stop taking the fucking Xbox, she

12:51

doesn't deserve to have rights. that type

12:54

of stuff. And he really played to

12:56

the algorithm in a way that like

12:58

much like Dan Bozarian played to the

13:00

Instagram algorithm. Andrew Tate just mastered

13:03

the YouTube algorithm. He was in

13:05

every single YouTube video for a while

13:07

before they banned him and same with Tiktok.

13:09

I mean, he just became completely mainstream through

13:12

these clips where he's saying deeply misogynistic things

13:14

and it really spoke to in cells because

13:16

he gives in cells sort of like a

13:18

path. out of insult them. It's like,

13:20

I used to be like you kind of

13:23

vibe, like I, you know, I know what

13:25

you're going through and look at me now.

13:27

I don't respect women at all. I sex

13:30

trafficked them because by the way, he

13:32

was eventually indicted on sex trafficking

13:34

charges. Like, yeah, it's just like

13:36

a complete disrespect for women and

13:38

a deep massage need that appealed

13:41

to millions of insol and insol

13:43

adjacent men online. I mean from like

13:45

the kind of creepy dusty corners of

13:47

the internet that like all of the

13:49

kind of early in cell forums stayed

13:51

and then to the manosphere that we

13:53

have today which is basically accessed by

13:55

the majority of young men at least

13:57

in the United States I feel like

13:59

Andrew is kind of the bridge, because

14:01

he did appeal to all of those

14:03

insales, but he also was like the

14:06

third most Googled person in 2022. The

14:08

thing with Andrew Tate is that

14:10

he blew up so quickly and

14:12

became so ubiquitous overnight to so

14:14

many millions of men with almost

14:16

zero media scrutiny. Parents didn't really

14:18

realize how bad he was. Like

14:20

they would hear their kids watching

14:22

his videos or quoting him, but

14:24

because there was no real accountability.

14:27

reporting on him, especially while he

14:29

was blowing up, it didn't really

14:31

come into later. He was able

14:33

to amass like a huge amount

14:35

of influence online, sort of unchecked.

14:37

I think that that was a really

14:39

big part of his rise, because I

14:41

think there were these other bridges. I

14:43

mean, Dan Blazarian is another one, right,

14:45

where like men sort of idolized him,

14:47

but he was always sort of viewed

14:50

with a critical eye by the media.

14:52

Like he wasn't producing content that was

14:54

video that was video that was really

14:56

appealing to young. people. He had that

14:58

like hyper retention edited crap that's like

15:00

made to appeal to them. And it

15:02

was really appealing to them again through

15:04

the lens of self-help. Like that's what's

15:06

so important to understand. Like Andrew doesn't

15:08

just get his fans from being like,

15:10

fuck women, right? Like they get there very

15:12

quickly. But they start to watch him because

15:15

they're like, look at this really successful rich,

15:17

cool guy with like everything that a, you

15:19

know, 12 year old boy could ever want.

15:21

Like what a life he's living right. And

15:23

he's telling me, he's telling me how to

15:25

join Hustler's University and get rich and how

15:28

to do my little drop shipping crypto scheme

15:30

or how to work out or how to,

15:32

you know, it's like there's this like a

15:34

self-help aspect to it, which Jordan Peterson also

15:36

sort of tapped into like so much of

15:38

the manosphere taps into this idea of like

15:40

betterment as a man. Totally and this

15:43

is a perfect segue into I'm just

15:45

I'm for the listener who is new

15:47

to all these topics I'm like introducing

15:49

every little ingredient to the pie so

15:52

we can understand what happened with young

15:54

men in this election But this is

15:56

the part where I want to enter

15:58

the male loneliness epidemic I know,

16:00

I know, we're all tired of the,

16:03

but the male loneliness epidemic, but you

16:05

have to understand, I feel, at least

16:07

the narrative around the male loneliness epidemic

16:10

to understand why so many men would

16:12

gravitate, right, because like, okay, Andrew Tate

16:14

is out here saying, fuck women, fuck

16:16

gay people, fuck trans people, all of

16:19

this stuff. Here are my cars, here's

16:21

my six pack, and it's like, okay,

16:23

yeah, but. What is the essence of

16:26

this that is appealing to young boys?

16:28

And the male loneliness epidemic that you

16:30

may have heard about, maybe not, it

16:33

usually references the erosion of traditional gender

16:35

roles in modern society that has left

16:37

young men wondering what to do now

16:40

that women can get jobs and women

16:42

don't need them in the same way

16:44

and don't rely on them in the

16:46

same way. And we're also atomized on

16:49

our phones all the time. And these

16:51

things have... landed themselves to men feeling

16:53

socially and financially insecure and unsure of

16:56

themselves and esotericly unsure of their position

16:58

in the world or purpose in life.

17:00

Would you say that's a good synopsis?

17:03

Yeah. Yeah, the entire idea of the

17:05

male loneliness epidemic is it's this idea

17:07

that really centers men and men's feelings.

17:10

And again, that's not to say that

17:12

young men aren't experiencing loneliness, but we

17:14

can get, I mean, I don't know

17:16

how far you want to get into

17:19

all this right now, but the premises

17:21

of quite a flawed premise to begin

17:23

with. I agree, I also, I have

17:26

such mixed feelings about this. I do,

17:28

I do, unpopular, though it is on

17:30

the left to like, give grace to

17:33

the male loneliness epidemic, I have mixed

17:35

feelings about it. Because on one hand,

17:37

the male loneliness epidemic implies, like you

17:40

said, a lack of loneliness among all

17:42

these other cohorts, right? Women's loneliness, not

17:44

to mention all the other things women

17:46

have to not only worry about, but

17:49

like fear on a daily basis. I'm

17:51

picking my words carefully so the leftist

17:53

don't murder me. Like don't rake... over

17:56

the coals for this, but I think

17:58

that I understand as much as I

18:00

can understand a heterosexual man, it makes

18:03

sense to me how a young heterosexual

18:05

male whose fathers and grandfather grew up

18:07

in a world where it meant something

18:10

different to be a man would struggle

18:12

to relate, you know, to the loneliness

18:14

that young man are feeling now because

18:16

it's true, like in previous generations. No,

18:19

I know, I know, I know, I

18:21

know, I know, I know, I know,

18:23

I don't think those men in the

18:26

1950s were lonely as a lot of

18:28

them were like extremely lonely, right? It's

18:30

not that I don't think that they

18:33

were lonely, it's that I think to

18:35

be clear for the worse for society,

18:37

but I think that there was a

18:40

more defined socially constructed role around masculinity,

18:42

where now there isn't, and I think

18:44

that that's good. I just think that

18:46

these people don't know how to deal

18:49

with it, and I want to encourage

18:51

them to deal with it, and... I'm

18:53

not faulting like young heterosexual men for

18:56

like feeling confused about their position in

18:58

the world. Like I'm not faulting them

19:00

for that. No one is, just to

19:03

be clear. I think any person has

19:05

empathy, right? Any good person, especially if

19:07

you consider yourself on the left, like

19:10

you have to have empathy for these

19:12

young people, you can't just be like,

19:14

well, suck it up, Johnny, you know?

19:16

That's the world now. It's like, it's

19:19

hard. It's hard to be a young

19:21

person. And that's what I think is

19:23

frustrating for me when we talk about

19:26

these things of like the epidemic or

19:28

whatever. It's like it's really hard to

19:30

be a young person and it is

19:33

hard to be a young person and

19:35

it is hard to be a young

19:37

man in today because you're right. I

19:40

think that there aren't a lot of

19:42

positive examples of masculinity at least on

19:44

the internet. It's very unclear kind of

19:46

like what it means to be abolished

19:49

right? then you have these young men

19:51

who feel lost. And I think they

19:53

do struggle, right? They do struggle to

19:56

kind of make connections. I think a

19:58

much bigger problem than women is the

20:00

way the patriarchy treats men for having.

20:03

feelings right and exactly exactly it's like

20:05

Matt Walsh being like if my friend

20:07

said that he loved me like I'd

20:10

call him like a you know slur

20:12

or something yeah I can say yeah

20:14

that's that's well that's probably why you

20:16

don't have close mail friendships yeah that's

20:19

right I mean that's exactly what I

20:21

was gonna follow up with which is

20:23

that I don't want you to not

20:26

feel lonely I'm not gonna like slap

20:28

you on the risk for having your

20:30

confusion about your place in the world

20:33

but it is my opinion that I

20:35

feel very strongly about, that the source

20:37

of your loneliness is not women, the

20:39

source of your loneliness is not trans

20:42

people or like immigrants taking jobs that

20:44

you're too young to apply for, it's

20:46

capitalism and patriarchy. Okay, wow, now I'm

20:49

gonna sound like the blue-haired SJW, but

20:51

it's true, like. The reason that Andrew

20:53

Tate, I think, is so appealing to

20:56

all of these people is that he

20:58

represents someone who has succeeded under patriarchy

21:00

and capitalism. He is the most traditionally

21:03

like masculine looking. He's surrounded by hot

21:05

women all the time somehow. Criminally, he

21:07

is running all of these schemes and

21:09

has gotten extraordinarily wealthy at a relatively

21:12

young age. And it's like, you don't

21:14

want to be Andrew Tate, you want

21:16

to win against. capitalism and patriarchy and

21:19

like those are goals that I think

21:21

young men share with the rest of

21:23

us. Absolutely and I do think that

21:26

there is also a unique pressure on

21:28

men because of patriarchy and capitalism which

21:30

is by the way I think probably

21:33

worse 30 years ago right to be

21:35

the breadwinner to succeed and to have

21:37

a job and to make money and

21:39

that's why you see these, you know,

21:42

teen boys get sucked into like these

21:44

drop shipping or crypto schemes or course,

21:46

e-course things. It's like they are so

21:49

inundated with hustle culture and the way

21:51

that that manifests is is through influencers

21:53

like Andrew Tate, you know, amassing a

21:56

huge selling. And it's, it's ironically, they're

21:58

selling them actually just back the same

22:00

conservative dream. Like it's like you will

22:03

work hard and then these women will

22:05

be your slaves and you know you're

22:07

the master and you're the king of

22:09

the household and it's just it's just

22:12

sort of like new packaging on a

22:14

very regressive ideology. I also think you

22:16

know a lot of young men they

22:19

don't know how to talk to women.

22:21

Like, you know, when you're going through

22:23

puberty, it's really awkward. And like, everybody's

22:26

feelings get hurt, like, when you're in

22:28

that time period of, like, middle school

22:30

and high school and you're trying to

22:33

figure things out. And, like, everything also

22:35

feels so deep to you. And you

22:37

see this guy who's, like, succeeding. And

22:39

he's like, like, fuck these women. or

22:42

sorry I keep cursing on a YouTube

22:44

website, like, you know, screw these women.

22:46

I get demonetized automatically, I don't care.

22:49

Okay, good. It's like, screw these women,

22:51

like, I forgot these people, like, whoever

22:53

hurt you, they're worth nothing because women

22:56

are worthless and you can just collect

22:58

them like toys and you can move

23:00

on. That's a very appealing thing when

23:03

you're hurting inside or you feel like

23:05

some girl did just break your heart

23:07

or stood you up for a date

23:09

in ninth grade. middle and high school

23:12

age who like continue to internalize all

23:14

of this you know this kind of

23:16

like male loneliness thing and it's like

23:19

again like I'm with you but like

23:21

we should be fighting for universal health

23:23

care right and then like the cost

23:26

of things and like the fact that

23:28

it's hard to find a job won't

23:30

weigh so heavily it's like all of

23:33

these things are intertwined and so The

23:35

problem isn't feminism, it's capitalism. Exactly. And

23:37

like sometimes I think it is hard

23:39

to conceptualize why that is until you

23:42

like lay it out and it's like

23:44

you feel insufficient because you feel like

23:46

you can't open up emotionally to other

23:49

men, which is a great way to

23:51

make friends and resolve loneliness or at

23:53

least manage it and that is a

23:56

symptom of patriarchy that you feel like

23:58

you can't be emotionally vulnerable. you feel

24:00

like you have to have so much

24:03

money to prove your masculinity. Another aspect

24:05

of... patriarchy, but you can't get that

24:07

much money and you're always having to

24:09

spend it on things that aren't publicly

24:12

available because of capitalism. Like it's, it's,

24:14

it's, it's patriarchy and capitalism, but these

24:16

people, these people are being sold scapegoats

24:19

in the form of women by people

24:21

like Andrew Tate, who are taking their

24:23

money. because it's much easier to believe

24:26

that the problem is women because it's

24:28

something you can externalize and also a

24:30

lot of men have been hurt by

24:33

women just like a lot of women

24:35

have been hurt by men right like

24:37

you you have that guy that broke

24:39

your heart or sorry that woman that

24:42

broke your heart right I had that

24:44

guy that broke your heart right I

24:46

had that guy that broke your heart

24:49

right I had that guy that broke

24:51

that broke their heart and they're in

24:53

denial about it but you know it's

24:56

like that's sort of this like emotional

24:58

thing emotional thing whereas when you health

25:00

care. That's this like big thing that

25:02

you can't really understand that you can't

25:05

grapple with that you don't even have

25:07

like direct engagement with in your life.

25:09

And so it just becomes easier. And

25:12

it's also it's really enticing to believe

25:14

that you're you were born to be

25:16

better than everyone else. You were born

25:19

to lead and you know you have

25:21

the rightful sort of top place in

25:23

society if only these women would recognize

25:26

it, you know, and people would respect

25:28

you and bow down. It's like this

25:30

culture of of fear and negativity, but

25:32

it's appealing and it's really imbued in

25:35

a lot of the way that men

25:37

are socialized too, like the sports that

25:39

they're socialized to play, the competitiveness that's

25:42

driven into them, the, you know, they're

25:44

not raised to be collaborative and empathetic

25:46

at all. It's like shove your feelings

25:49

down, like work harder, you have to

25:51

be the provider and it's an enormous

25:53

amount of pressure. Yeah. I just want

25:56

to add like there's... I really want

25:58

to hammer home, like, there's all of

26:00

these ways that I often find myself

26:02

wanting to empathize with young men expressing

26:05

their loneliness on the internet, and then

26:07

where at oftentimes I feel like I

26:09

can't do that is because the male

26:12

loneliness epidemic... conversation becomes cover for men

26:14

to just spew misogyny. Yeah. And imply

26:16

that like women aren't struggling in the

26:19

same way, which like sure, maybe it's

26:21

a different flavor of struggle, but it's,

26:23

you know, it's the whole thing of

26:26

like a man's worst fear is like

26:28

being falsely accused of rape and a

26:30

woman's worst fear is being raped. Yeah,

26:32

and you see these media pundits right

26:35

like the Scott Galloway's of the world

26:37

that just all they do is talk

26:39

about men while promoting misogyny and it's

26:42

like the point the problem is misogyny

26:44

and and centering men's experience and misogyny

26:46

hurts everyone it hurts men and women

26:49

and they don't recognize that and they

26:51

think oh I can just sort of

26:53

like out massaging myself out from the

26:56

system. It's like they buy it they

26:58

go further into the system instead of

27:00

getting outside of getting outside of it.

27:02

men's loneliness epidemic is, I think, a

27:05

symptom of our patriarchal society that centers

27:07

men's experience. And let's be real, men

27:09

have lost a bit of status in

27:12

the world, right? Like there are fewer

27:14

male college graduates, there's fewer men getting

27:16

higher degrees in certain areas, there's a

27:19

lot more equality. And when you were

27:21

on top and you were the sort

27:23

of master, right? Like any sense of

27:26

equality feels like something's being taken from

27:28

you. And this is just what we

27:30

need to do is educate people and

27:32

be like actually the system was fucking

27:35

you up too. But instead we're getting

27:37

this romanticized version of the past sold

27:39

back to us by people who are

27:42

very cleverly profiting off of the whole

27:44

situation. Should we return to the profiteers

27:46

in question? Yeah. We really could talk

27:49

about, I mean, it's the male loneliness

27:51

of it, I'm not calling it that

27:53

uncritically, but like in air quotes, like,

27:56

it's a rich text, it's a rich

27:58

text. I would like to take a

28:00

quick break from today's show to thank

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the sponsor of today's episode, Nord, VPN.

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One of my favorite TV shows of

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all time. is the reality TV makeup

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competition show, Glow Up. Glow Up stands,

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and seasons of it do eventually come

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as it comes out is on the

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BBC I player, and the only way

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in New York City. Enter. Nord VPN.

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out Nord and get that discount at

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nordvpn.com/Fruity. That'll also be in the episode

29:42

description. It's nordvpn.com/Fruity. Now back to the

29:44

show. So the success of Andrew Tate

29:46

spawns a million Andrew Tates. And one

29:49

of them, by the way, and I

29:51

just want to like insert this really

29:53

fast, is really fast. Someone called Sneko?

29:55

Do you know Sneko? Of course I

29:58

know Sneko. I do, unfortunately. He's like

30:00

Andrew Tate but less. I don't know. All

30:02

of these people to me, all of these

30:04

people by the way, who have millions of

30:06

followers each. But like Snico is like a,

30:08

it's, they're all kind of like dollar store

30:11

Andrew Tate's to me. Yes, they are.

30:13

Jack, whatever his name is, that

30:15

just paid Kaison at $3,000 on

30:17

stream the other day. Jack Doherty.

30:19

No idea. A lot of them

30:21

are live streamers, like Aidan Ross

30:23

is in that milieu. I mean,

30:26

Sneeco is a live streamer content

30:28

creator who's, yeah, just promotes hatred

30:30

and misogyny. But these people are

30:32

into like live streaming culture, gaming

30:34

culture. Like they're more like involved

30:36

in culture, like direct teen culture,

30:39

like the top of the. like

30:41

he's so successful he's up you know

30:43

living his life in Romania or whatever

30:45

maybe he's right running away from sex

30:47

trafficking charges right these other guys

30:50

are very much like they're going

30:52

up to meet with Donald Trump

30:54

they're like in America they're they're

30:56

really directly appealing to these young men

30:58

yeah one time snico This happened last year.

31:00

He was at like some kind of sporting

31:02

event, and he was like walking around kind

31:04

of like the food area in the stadium.

31:07

Maybe it was like a baseball game or

31:09

a football game or something. So a group

31:11

of these boys that look like they're in

31:13

like sixth grade. And they're like,

31:15

Sneeco, Sneeco, can we get a

31:17

picture, get a video picture? And

31:19

then he like takes one of

31:21

their phones, poses to take a

31:23

selfie with them. And while they're

31:26

taking a selfie, these young boys,

31:28

these young boys go, And then

31:30

Sneeco looks bewildered. And he's like,

31:32

what? No, no, wait. We

31:34

love women. And then

31:36

the kids are like, but

31:38

fuck the gays, right? We

31:40

hate the gays. We love

31:43

women. We love women.

31:45

We love women. We

31:47

love women. We love

31:50

women. But not what

31:52

tension. Yes, we love

31:54

everybody. No, no. And Snico

31:57

was like, no, we love everyone.

31:59

And it was. such a crystallizing moment

32:01

of like we are watching con

32:03

artists at work. Like I don't

32:05

think that like Snico or Andrew

32:07

Tate, especially not entertain, but I don't

32:09

think any of these people like

32:11

go to bed at night being like,

32:13

okay, time to be a nice person

32:16

in real life now. Like it

32:18

takes a certain type of evil and

32:20

irresponsibility to be performing all of

32:22

this bigotry online. But you can tell

32:25

that in this video that Snico

32:27

is not aware of the real life

32:29

consequences of his rhetoric and what

32:31

it's doing. to like 12 year olds.

32:33

It reminds me of just like, I

32:36

mean so many internet trolls before

32:38

him, right? That are like, wait, no,

32:40

I wasn't serious. Like I didn't

32:42

really mean, I mean, I guess this

32:44

is just like so much extremism

32:46

too, generally like wait, wait, whoa, you

32:49

guys are taking it too far. And

32:51

it's like, well, what did you

32:53

think the consequences of this would be?

32:55

Where did you think this was

32:57

going? It was always going there. Like

33:00

that video is so kind of

33:02

disturbing because it presents like especially like

33:04

the youth and young children that are

33:06

consuming his garbage like you just

33:08

see how it's interpreted and there's no

33:11

denying it he can't deny it

33:13

right because otherwise in interviews he'll be

33:15

like oh you know that's not

33:17

my audience and it's like here's your

33:19

audience directly confronting you repeating back

33:21

what they're hearing from you. A lot

33:24

of people over the last week have

33:26

been like... I saw multiple viral

33:28

tweets with like, why have the young

33:30

men of the United States turn

33:32

into Hitler's youth? And I think that

33:35

10-second long video is like the

33:37

single most illustrative example of the entire

33:39

process happening, of the radicalization of boys.

33:41

There are a few cast members

33:43

of the Manosphere that I would like

33:46

for you to explain to me,

33:48

because I feel like you know them

33:50

and I don't. I literally made

33:52

a list. Because I was like researching

33:55

for this episode and I was

33:57

like seeing all of these influencers that

33:59

Donald Trump made content with and I

34:01

was like, who are these? people

34:03

and they're all so famous. But just

34:06

like that's how I don't know

34:08

walled off different parts of the internet

34:10

are. What is the Milk Boys?

34:12

Milk Boys are a group of Canadian

34:14

pranksters. They started in prank YouTube. era

34:17

sort of second half the 2010s

34:19

really birthed out of like the Logan

34:21

Paul like who also is part

34:23

of all of this. Yeah they're Canadian

34:25

YouTubeers although they've gotten very involved

34:27

in American politics. Canadian? Yes they're Canadian.

34:30

What? This is literally foreign election interference.

34:32

Canadians are always like they're like

34:34

the only rude people to ever come

34:36

out of Canada so we had

34:38

to send them to America. Some of

34:41

them aren't. I think Steve will

34:43

do it as American, but yeah, the

34:45

main guys are a Canadian. They

34:47

really blew up in early COVID because

34:49

they refused to do lockdown and they

34:52

went on a national US party

34:54

tour during the earliest days of the

34:56

pandemic when we had, you know,

34:58

no treatments for COVID. And so they

35:00

resisted, they also kept gyms open,

35:02

they were really into the like right

35:05

wing, were not shutting down anything in

35:07

early 2020. And so they got,

35:09

they did this like frat tour where

35:11

they were like visiting frats and

35:13

stuff too and partying and that got

35:16

them a lot of attention. They're

35:18

just, I mean, ultimately they're a prank

35:20

channel. So they do pranks and

35:22

that's really what blew them up. Now

35:25

they're getting more political, but what blew

35:27

them up was like classic YouTube

35:29

2018 pranks. Sure. And then during this

35:31

election cycle, they were on Donald

35:33

Trump's private jet with him? They've been

35:36

on that jet multiple times, but

35:38

yeah, they collaborated. They have a podcast

35:40

called The Full Send podcast, and Donald

35:42

Trump appeared on that, and JD

35:44

Vance, and you know, they've done a

35:47

lot. They believe in Trump. They're

35:49

such organic Trump supporters, and they... have

35:51

collaborated a lot with Trump. I'll

35:53

say that to the now. Last chance.

35:55

If she wins, the country's finished.

35:57

The nowk boys were the bridge. The

36:00

nowk boys truly opened the floodgates for

36:02

everyone else because you'll know. Prior

36:04

to the Nalkboys, like, Trump wasn't doing

36:06

as much long-form stuff. He wasn't

36:08

really collaborating with all of these guys.

36:11

The Nalkboys really, like, honestly trained

36:13

him for Rogan because he was having

36:15

these, like, hours-long interviews. He was getting

36:17

more comfortable dealing with this world

36:19

and then after he started collaborating with

36:22

the Nalkboys, you see the trickle-down,

36:24

where suddenly he's on impulsive, right? One

36:26

relatively small planet. Why wouldn't there

36:28

be on a planet that's you know

36:30

400 times the size? Why wouldn't there

36:33

be some something somebody? The thought

36:35

of it freaks me out You know,

36:37

it's it's weird to think that

36:39

we potentially are only the source of

36:41

life in like an infinite ever

36:43

expanding universe But but you know technology

36:46

they'd never be able to take

36:48

you in a fight. Okay, we're gonna

36:50

pop over to the Paul brothers because

36:53

they're on my list I do

36:55

know who Logan and Jake Paul are

36:57

they are brothers Jake, so they

36:59

started out as YouTubeers. This sounds like

37:01

a boomer podcast. I'm not a

37:03

boomer, I'm just homosexual. I feel like

37:06

I'm on CNN. I don't know what's

37:08

going on on the straight mail

37:10

internet and neither do my listeners. No,

37:12

some of you are going to

37:14

comment and be like, you know, what

37:17

are you not? No, I know

37:19

Jake Paul was a YouTubeer and he

37:21

became a boxer, right? They started,

37:23

they blew up, they were some of

37:25

the earliest people to go viral on

37:28

vine. They moved into 1600 vine

37:30

in Hollywood and they really became sort

37:32

of mainstream celebrities, of course, then

37:34

pivoted to YouTube, blew up on YouTube.

37:36

For a while it looked like

37:38

Logan was going to be a little

37:41

bit more liberal. He actually like supported

37:43

the Black Lives Matter movement in

37:45

2020 and made this great video about

37:47

like social justice and like why

37:49

we should support BLM. That was while

37:52

his brother was in Arizona looting

37:54

during the BLM riots, smashing upstores and

37:56

participating in looting. Of course, Jake famously

37:58

had Team 10, which was his

38:00

content house in West Hollywood, where he

38:03

had a bunch of underage content

38:05

creators living for a while, where it

38:07

was like sort of an early

38:09

collab group. It was like the Hype

38:11

House before the Hype House, but

38:13

they've also become more famous. Logan has

38:16

evolved and really pivoted into becoming a

38:18

major podcaster. So he's up there,

38:20

you know, with a lot of these

38:23

big podcasts with his show Impulsive.

38:25

Logan is the one that filmed the

38:27

dead body and the Japanese suicide

38:29

forest. These are just

38:31

not sentences that should exist in

38:33

the English language. There's a lot

38:35

of lore with the Paul family,

38:37

but anyway, they're adjacent to all,

38:40

like obviously they know the Elk

38:42

Boys, they came up and prank

38:44

YouTube era together, it's all kind

38:46

of the same crowd. I was

38:48

gonna ask you how do you

38:50

explain these people's like position in

38:52

the manosphere, but really it's all

38:54

the same. They're all just like

38:56

performatively hyper masculine, very wealthy, very

38:58

like ostentatious and outward about their

39:00

wealth. Is that? They all have

39:02

like, you know, tiny beautiful blonde

39:05

girlfriends. Well, Logan has a fiancé

39:07

or wife now, I think, who

39:09

is Burnett and very pretty. Diversity.

39:11

Diversity, she is a model. I

39:13

mean, yes, essentially what you're saying

39:15

is all the same and true,

39:17

right? They have the model hot,

39:19

you know, girlfriend or wife, they've

39:21

got the mansion in Puerto Rico,

39:23

previously Calabasas, like... Like you said,

39:25

they perform masculinity like Jake has

39:27

gotten really into boxing. He just

39:30

boxed Mike Tyson or is set

39:32

to box Mike Tyson. It's on

39:34

Netflix, you know, it's it's like

39:36

this leaning into this like hyper

39:38

masculine lifestyle and culture. Is there

39:40

a point in which the Paul

39:42

brothers become explicitly political? It's been

39:44

that way. I mean, Jake famously

39:46

said he wants to run for

39:48

president. Both of them have endorsed,

39:50

yeah, Republican candidates. I mean, Jake

39:52

got Vivac Ramiswarmi on Tik-talk in

39:55

the in the primary. In the

39:57

Republican primary, Jake was a big

39:59

Ramiswarmi person and collaborated with him.

40:01

for a minute. I did have

40:03

Aidan Ross on here. Aidan Ross,

40:05

okay, Aidan Ross is another diet,

40:07

Andrew Tate, that's my understanding. He's

40:09

like he's actually kind of like

40:11

the direct spawn of Andrew Tate.

40:13

He's like the mini me, but

40:16

he's not very masculine looking. He's

40:18

small. Like not to be whatever,

40:21

but he's not even fucking ripped.

40:23

He's under six foot beta. Who's

40:25

bigger me or him? He's bigger

40:27

than him. He's small. He's like,

40:30

I mean, actually, let's Google Aid

40:32

and Ross. Oh, yeah, he's only

40:34

5-7. Again, love a short king,

40:37

okay? No hate. This man is

40:39

24 years old. We are not

40:41

body shaming anyone. We love, you

40:43

know, short men. But he is

40:46

sort of this, like, I picture

40:48

him as like, one of those

40:50

like, yappie dogs, where he's sort

40:52

of like always around these bigger

40:55

guys, and he's primarily in live

40:57

streaming not. YouTube. Didn't Donald Trump

40:59

give him a Tesla or was it

41:02

the other way around? Which was actually

41:04

a FEC violation for a campaign donation

41:06

so it had to be returned. But

41:08

yeah he he famously streamed with

41:10

Donald Trump. I think they were at

41:13

Marlago when they streamed together. Yeah

41:15

he was a twitch streamer but he

41:17

was kicked off Twitch and then he

41:19

was allowed back on and he was

41:21

ultimately kicked off twitch. Eight times. I

41:23

think he's on kick now, right? Until

41:26

he found his home on kick,

41:28

which is the right wing twitch,

41:30

which we are going to talk

41:32

about that mirror industry. But okay,

41:34

we are through our cast of

41:36

characters with one who remains Joe

41:38

Rogan. Well, why, I don't

41:40

understand why left-leaning media, which

41:42

is mostly Jewish, are calling

41:44

people white supremacist, dude. Joe,

41:47

did you say that? Yeah, I just

41:49

don't understand. Left wing media is

41:51

mostly Jewish. I mean, according to

41:53

my Jewish friends, it is, you

41:56

know? But why do they hate

41:58

white guys? It's just... woke things,

42:00

man. It's just virtue woke bullshit. I

42:02

feel like people, maybe not avid listeners

42:05

of this podcast, but maybe others, maybe

42:07

perhaps fans of Joe Rogan, would bristle

42:09

at the inclusion of him in the

42:11

manosphere. Because a lot of the people

42:14

that we've been talking about, they are

42:16

so ridiculous with the way that they

42:18

show off their wealth, their bodies, the

42:20

way that they talk about women. I

42:23

mean, it's like, it's oftentimes, you know,

42:25

in the style of Andrew Tate. It's

42:27

like a caricature of... 1960s misogyny. Whereas

42:29

Joe Rogan presents himself very differently. Joe

42:32

Rogan obviously biggest podcast in the world.

42:34

Joe Rogan presents himself as like a

42:36

cool guy. He's calm. He just wants

42:38

to hear everybody out. He just wants

42:40

to ask questions. He doesn't want anybody

42:43

to be silenced. That's why he has

42:45

the biggest podcast in the world. How

42:47

how would you characterize Joe Rogan and

42:49

as politics. Well, Joe Rogan is, like

42:52

you said, I don't think it's fair

42:54

to like necessarily group him in with

42:56

all of these people, but he's adjacent

42:58

and ultimately these people feed into the

43:01

Rogan universe. Like, Joe Rogan actually doesn't

43:03

necessarily have terrible politics. He's quite ignorant

43:05

of a lot of actual policies. He

43:07

did support Bernie Sanders in 2020. He's

43:10

fundamentally like more of a populist. Obviously

43:12

he said a bunch of transphobic stuff.

43:14

He's super bigoted, but he's not necessarily

43:16

economically right in the same way. Like

43:19

he wasn't necessarily on board with Trump

43:21

in the same way. Like he. until

43:23

he was, of course, but he used

43:25

to, I mean, he used to have

43:28

a lot more leftist on, he had

43:30

Cornell West on, he had Kyle Kalinsky

43:32

on, he would have like, I think

43:34

he had David Pac-Mon, like these, these

43:36

Democrat, Youtuber-type people, like, he would engage

43:39

in a little bit more of a

43:41

diverse range of opinions. Unfortunately, I think,

43:43

COVID, the early days of the pandemic,

43:45

also really radicalized him, like, we have

43:48

to think of, like, COVID is this

43:50

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

43:52

like, like, like, like, I think ultimately

43:54

Rogan was part of that. But he's

43:57

part of the manuscript and he's part

43:59

of this like, like hyper-masculant internet, right?

44:01

Like he has a lot of these

44:03

figures on, these UFC fighters, these Jimbro

44:06

type people, but he also has a

44:08

lot of other interesting characters. His main

44:10

role in this world I think is

44:12

being a useful idiot. I mean, now

44:15

I think he'll intentionally platform certain ideologies

44:17

that he... agrees with, which is just

44:19

Trump, like Trumpism and conservatism. I do

44:21

think he's a fundamentally curious person. I

44:24

don't think he's super knowledgeable, but I

44:26

think he likes to hear about things

44:28

like, you know, he'll have like some

44:30

alien guys on, he'll have some history

44:32

guys on, like he goes down these.

44:35

warm holes and it's enticing for listeners

44:37

because he performs, you know what, it's

44:39

not even that he's that curious, he

44:41

sort of just performs as curious and

44:44

he performs as, I'll hear anyone out,

44:46

like it's sort of this like, of

44:48

course he doesn't actually hear anyone out,

44:50

of course he doesn't actually hear anyone

44:53

out, he's not going to have a

44:55

lot of progressive, he doesn't have very

44:57

many women, he doesn't have, you know,

44:59

there's voices that are not being heard

45:02

on the Joe Rogan podcast. the people

45:04

that listen to him, they don't, they,

45:06

they, they're drinking the cool aid. They're

45:08

like, oh no, he just, he wants

45:11

to have these people on, right? So

45:13

that he'll hear any opinion. It's like,

45:15

well, no, he, he won't, right? He's

45:17

not having trans people on. Exactly. Joe

45:20

Rogan is, this is the second time

45:22

on this podcast recently that I've invoked

45:24

the contra points character of the centrist

45:26

libertarian podcast host Jackie Jackson, where In

45:28

one of Contra Points' videos, she says,

45:31

welcome to the Freedom Pod, where it

45:33

doesn't matter what you say. It only

45:35

matters that you say. And that's how

45:37

I feel about Joe Rogan's podcast. It's

45:40

like, he is so undisserning about what

45:42

he platforms. But he is discerning enough,

45:44

because we know who he won't platform,

45:46

right? He's discerning enough, and I think

45:49

this gives him this plausible deniability to

45:51

be like... I'm just a regular guy

45:53

hearing people out and I'll have anyone

45:55

on. It's like you won't have anyone

45:58

on. Because where are the leftist? where

46:00

are the trans people? Where are the

46:02

people that are challenging your subtle ideology

46:04

that is coming through through your guest

46:06

selection? And this is what you see

46:08

in so many conservative podcasts. It's like

46:11

they take this sort of like air

46:13

of neutrality. But I had a fight with

46:15

my friend about this the other day. We

46:17

were looking at one of these. It was

46:19

sort of like a knockoff Joe Rogan type

46:21

thing. But it's like, well, he'll hear anyone

46:23

out. It's like, well, let's go through the past

46:26

two years of the. mainstream Democrat person

46:28

and that's Reid Hoffman, right? You know,

46:30

it's like that type of shit. It's

46:33

like, let's be real. You've had Elon

46:35

Musk on how many times. You've had

46:37

all these people, like you have the

46:39

same people that share your viewpoint. I

46:41

think that Rogan could have been

46:43

a very useful tool for progressives

46:45

and the Democrats, but they alienated

46:47

him very quickly. Yeah, because after he

46:50

had Bernie Sanders on in, I think,

46:52

a lot of people on the left

46:54

were very angry. that Joe Rogan had,

46:56

or that Bernie Sanders had agreed. No?

46:59

Moronic. Yeah, they were angry and it

47:01

was the stupidest thing I've ever seen.

47:03

That was another time I got canceled

47:05

online was defending that. A lot of

47:07

people on the left and liberals were

47:09

very angry with him, with Bernie, for

47:12

having gone on the podcast of somebody

47:14

who had said transphobic things in the

47:16

past. And like, on one hand, I

47:18

understand that. And on the other hand, I

47:20

listen to the podcast today and Bernie is

47:23

basically talking about the need for universal health

47:25

care the entire time, and it has millions

47:27

and millions of views. I think that

47:29

people that are mad about that have

47:31

a deep misunderstanding of the media landscape

47:33

of today. This is not a world

47:35

where you're like Bernie Sanders doesn't go

47:37

on, so he's deplatformed. This is a

47:39

man with a significantly larger platform that

47:41

is giving somebody like Bernie's space to

47:43

essentially make their case and cleave off

47:45

some of that audience to the left.

47:48

you should take that opportunity every

47:50

single time. And I mean, this is why

47:52

you see people like, it's good to engage

47:54

in those spaces. I don't think that necessarily

47:56

like everyone should have to do that, right?

47:59

But it's good. we want people with

48:01

progressive ideologies to go into these

48:03

radicalized spaces and say, hey, you

48:05

might actually agree with some of

48:07

what we have going. This is

48:09

how deradicalization happens a lot of

48:11

the time. People are like, oh,

48:13

that's interesting. Oh, I started to

48:15

follow. Oh, maybe Bernie does have

48:17

some points. But if you just

48:19

ignore these spaces, they don't go

48:21

away. They have the legitimacy already.

48:23

Bernie shouldn't go on some random

48:25

500 listener like Nazi podcast or

48:27

something. But the power dynamic is

48:29

quite clear in that situation and

48:31

Joe Rogan has the power. In

48:34

2019, Justin Peters wrote this

48:36

piece for Slate, where he wrote,

48:38

the Joe Rogan experience has

48:40

become one of the internet's foremost

48:42

vectors for anti -wokeness with its

48:44

mellow welcoming vibe, its pretense

48:46

of common sense, and its general

48:48

reluctance to push back on

48:50

any of its guest ideas save

48:52

for only the baddest. The

48:54

podcast has become the factory where

48:56

red pills get sugar coated.

48:58

I think that was a really

49:00

great synopsis of what the

49:02

Joe Rogan podcast has become more

49:04

recently, which is where people

49:07

with really far right beliefs, I

49:09

mean, Donald Trump, yes, Elon

49:11

Musk, Jordan Peterson, where they go

49:13

to have their beliefs laundered

49:15

through the cool guy lens. That's

49:17

extraordinarily dangerous. And I would

49:19

argue that's basically what's happened with

49:21

like incel masculinity for the

49:23

masses, which is why I wanted

49:25

to start this whole podcast

49:27

with explaining the whole incel culture

49:29

because it was originally a

49:31

fringe thing where if you explained

49:33

the worldview of incels to

49:35

any odd guy on the street,

49:37

any odd boy in middle

49:39

school, even they'd be like, dude,

49:41

get a fucking grip. But

49:43

now it's been watered down so

49:45

many times that it's kind

49:47

of like, I don't know, a

49:49

mainstay ideology that runs through

49:51

like barstool podcasts. It's interesting we

49:53

didn't talk about barstool. Barstool

49:55

hasn't come up as much, but

49:58

it is also it also

50:00

feeds into this version of masculinity

50:02

and also Dave Portnoy is

50:04

the Trump supporter. Like, I think

50:06

I think barstool is much

50:08

more like cultural, but it's it's

50:10

an One, look at who they're platforming. They're not platforming

50:12

progressives. And that's this broader thing that I think we need

50:14

to look at is like zoom out and just be like,

50:16

look at all of this together. Like, there are not progressive

50:18

voices in these spaces. And these are not neutral spaces, especially

50:20

not the Joe Rogan experience. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't

50:22

try that doesn't mean that people like Bernie Sanders shouldn't try

50:24

to go into those spaces and espouse health care for all

50:26

or like populist ideology, but they are, you know, you know,

50:28

they're not neutral. I would

50:30

like to take a quick, quick break

50:33

from the show to give a shout

50:35

out to the sponsor of today's episode,

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rocket money.com/fruity. That's rocket money.com/fruity. Now let's

51:54

get back to the show. After the

51:56

election, there were a lot of people

51:59

online who were correctly pointing out what

52:01

we've been pointing out so far in

52:03

this episode which is that the reason

52:05

so many young men voted for Trump

52:08

is because they've been radicalized in these

52:10

online spaces and there were a lot

52:12

of calls for us to develop our

52:14

own spaces even our own Joe Rogan

52:17

of the left. One person wrote people

52:19

saying Harris should have done Joe Rogan

52:21

are missing the point that wouldn't have

52:23

helped her. Liberals need to build their

52:26

own Joe Rogan. somebody who can speak

52:28

to the people he speaks to without

52:30

being a guy who wants to kiss

52:32

ass to billionaires like Elon Musk. You,

52:35

Taylor, wrote a piece for your sub-sac

52:37

called Why Democrats Won't Build Their Own

52:39

Joe Rogan. Can you explain your thesis

52:42

there? Yeah, I wrote this at 1am

52:44

without even reading it over before I

52:46

published it because I got annoyed at

52:48

seeing that tweet. I understand the impulse.

52:51

There were so many people being like,

52:53

well, they have podcasts that are doing

52:55

well, so we need to have more

52:57

podcasts. I understand you're correctly identifying the

53:00

issue, but maybe misunderstanding it. Well, that's

53:02

a symptom of the issue, right? The

53:04

broader issue is that we have not

53:06

spent, like, the Democrats, here's the fundamental

53:09

core problem is, well, actually, let me

53:11

walk you through this. No, because like,

53:13

I really want to make myself clear.

53:15

Take a seat. Sit down and listen.

53:18

Listen to a woman for once. Why

53:20

don't you sit your ass down and

53:22

listen to a woman? Explain men to

53:25

you. So I think a lot of

53:27

Democrats saw the media climate and they're

53:29

like, Well, if Kamala had just gone

53:31

on a few more episodes of Call

53:34

Her Daddy and Smart, had done Smartless

53:36

and Pods Save America, like she'd win.

53:38

No. The point is, is that the

53:40

left ideology has no clout on the

53:43

internet, right? Like, there is no infrastructure

53:45

on the left that is even remotely

53:47

equivalent to what the right wing has

53:49

built for decades. States. Ever since the

53:52

Days of Talk Radio in the 90s,

53:54

the right recognized the value of personality

53:56

driven media delivered natively and basically uncensored

53:58

through first radio, then podcast, then YouTube

54:01

and stuff when they got deplatform there,

54:03

they built their entire suite of apps

54:05

like Rumble and Kick and all of

54:07

these at the right wing version of

54:10

every single mainstream social app for their

54:12

deplatform people. And they've ceded their ideology

54:14

so successfully through amassing online influence again

54:17

through this decades long project, which is

54:19

incredibly well funded by major right wing

54:21

billionaire donors, right? Like things like turning

54:23

point USA where they're. going out and

54:26

recruiting college students that have the potential

54:28

to be influencers basically training them up

54:30

giving them resources if you want to

54:32

be a right wing content creator and

54:35

you're 21 years old and you want

54:37

to say a bunch of regressive shit

54:39

somebody will buy you a camera somebody

54:41

will edit your podcast like there is

54:44

this infrastructure to plug into that does

54:46

not exist on the left so that

54:48

not only are there no voices at

54:50

the top there's no voices all the

54:53

way down if you're a leftist and

54:55

you're making a podcast you're editing it

54:57

yourself you're editing yourself probably Don't call

55:00

me out like that. I'm editing this

55:02

tomorrow. Yeah, I mean, you're not getting

55:04

a check from the Heritage Foundation, right?

55:06

Like, this funding structure doesn't exist. Part

55:09

of that is because leftists actually challenge

55:11

billionaires' existence, right? So like rich billionaires

55:13

aren't going to fund people that don't

55:15

even believe they should exist or believe

55:18

that they should be taxed and stuff.

55:20

And also a lot of these billionaires

55:22

are right wing. Also. there is no

55:24

like Joe Rogan of the left too

55:27

because the left essentially has mainstream media

55:29

like this is why the right built

55:31

this alternative media ecosystem is because it

55:33

is true that legacy media is largely

55:36

a tool of the democratic party it's

55:38

corporate media like corporate media of course

55:40

they're gonna yeah like The Wall Street

55:42

Journal is also like Republican whatever, but

55:45

it serves this two-party system and ultimately

55:47

serves capital, right? They have an interest

55:49

in preserving capitalism and a pretty fucked

55:52

up version of capitalism. You're not going

55:54

to see the New York Times espousing

55:56

any sort of leftist or progressive ideology.

55:58

Look at the shit that they're publishing

56:01

about trans people. right now or Gaza,

56:03

right? So there is no media ecosystem

56:05

for the Democrat. Like the Democrats can

56:07

engage in traditional media, because again, the

56:10

traditional media is bought into capitalism, but

56:12

the Democratic platform, Kamala's platform is completely

56:14

out of step with progressive internet. Like

56:16

if she went on Hassan-Piker, right? Like

56:19

that's not gonna be a friendly interview.

56:21

They don't agree on a lot. Like

56:23

it wouldn't be like Trump going on

56:25

Rogan because they share the ideology. Kamala

56:28

doesn't share an ideology with the left.

56:30

She's fundamentally a centrist corporate borderline Republican

56:32

Democrat. So they can't even plug into

56:35

like the leftist that even have a

56:37

modicum of clout. And by the way,

56:39

those leftists have amassed that clout with

56:41

no funding and no support. Whereas you

56:44

have other people like Tim Poole, these

56:46

right-wing youtopers, that are getting $400,000 a

56:48

month just to produce his YouTube show.

56:50

from funding that ultimately ended up being

56:53

a lot of like Russian money, which

56:55

is hilarious. But it's like this is,

56:57

this, the right is so incredibly astroturfed.

56:59

Right, right. And it's like astroturfed into

57:02

existence. There's, there's nothing like that on

57:04

the left. Someone on Twitter wrote, anyways,

57:06

Liberals should start doing podcasts and Tik

57:08

Talks, whatever aimed at setting the youth

57:11

straight. Since the days of Gamergate, the

57:13

right has totally dominated this shit and

57:15

Liberals haven't taken it seriously seriously at

57:17

all. And again, I think there are

57:20

so many people who are correctly identifying

57:22

that the digital political space is completely

57:24

dominated by right wing voices, but are

57:27

misunderstanding that there is a reason for

57:29

that. And it's all those reasons that

57:31

you just stated, like there's not a

57:33

shortage of like left wing people doing

57:36

podcasts. No, there's not. Like if you're

57:38

watching this on fucking YouTube. Look on

57:40

the right side and there are going

57:42

to be 16 other people making video

57:45

essays about left-wing topics and they're all

57:47

going to be making their money entirely

57:49

from crowdfunding and Patreon and stuff like

57:51

that. I mean, people look at Hasan

57:54

Piker who, if you don't know Hasan

57:56

Piker, He's like a leftist Twitch streamer.

57:58

And they see his success. And he

58:00

is very successful. And he is very

58:03

wealthy, not nearly in the echelon of

58:05

the top right wing creators. And he's

58:07

wealthy because of ad revenue he makes

58:10

from Twitch, not because he gets a

58:12

multi-million dollar daily wire contract. They literally

58:14

didn't credential him through the DNC. He

58:16

had to get a credential through his

58:19

uncle who runs. the young Turks and

58:21

other YouTube channel, once he got into

58:23

the DNC, they booted him out after

58:25

he interviewed people from the uncommitted movement

58:28

and told him that there was no

58:30

more space for him. This is the

58:32

most relevant content creator in the entire

58:34

left internet and they kicked him out

58:37

of the DNC. That's just such a

58:39

perfect metaphor for like how and they

58:41

don't, I mean, they don't respect, they

58:43

don't respect the internet. I mean, they

58:46

being the Democrats. The Democrats don't respect

58:48

the internet. The Democrats are completely in

58:50

bed with corporate media. 150%! I mean

58:52

it feels like it feels like the

58:55

strategy this election was like gilting young

58:57

people to get out and vote but

58:59

the thing is you need to really

59:02

meet them where they are and what

59:04

the right so successfully did was tap

59:06

into these young men who have through

59:08

you know extraordinary misogeny and really disgusting

59:11

content. made themselves cool among young men.

59:13

But also, why won't they go into

59:15

these leftist spaces? Why would Kamala not

59:17

do a single interview, you know, unscripted

59:20

over an hour? The entire call, her

59:22

daddy interview was scripted. She didn't even

59:24

go to Alex's house. Like, the set

59:26

had to be created. It was such

59:29

a weird interview that was not how

59:31

they normally do those interviews, like set

59:33

up to look like a 60 minutes

59:35

interview, right? Like, they don't want to

59:38

engage because they don't. What they keep

59:40

running the remember at the beginning remember

59:42

at the beginning of the episode I

59:45

was like we'll get there Yeah, but

59:47

I know I was like I'm gonna

59:49

get mad. I'm gonna get mad, but

59:51

it's like you have to wonder, how

59:54

did we get a democratic party that

59:56

is so terrified, that knows that they

59:58

are so completely out of step with

1:00:00

all young people on all the major

1:00:03

issues, so they can't even engage with

1:00:05

those young people on the internet, and

1:00:07

they have to stay off the internet

1:00:09

and go just talk to the New

1:00:12

York Times and the Washington Post, because

1:00:14

if they actually engage with people on

1:00:16

the internet, they will be called out

1:00:18

for being completely out of step and

1:00:21

not having policies that are popular and

1:00:23

not living up to their promises. They're

1:00:25

not a party of the people. They're

1:00:27

a party of corporate rich donors. And

1:00:30

if you're going to be a party

1:00:32

of corporate rich donors, just be Republicans.

1:00:34

They already have that on lock. And

1:00:37

you can't win on the internet when

1:00:39

you have nothing to say. So it's

1:00:41

like, even if you had put, like,

1:00:43

imagine they had put her on Joe

1:00:46

Rogan? Like, what would she even say?

1:00:48

My favorite piece of content from this

1:00:50

entire election is ironically a Barry Weiss.

1:00:52

But she sent one of her little

1:00:55

minions to the DNC and they interviewed,

1:00:57

they went around interviewing all of these

1:00:59

like content creators and just like people,

1:01:01

like young people at the DNC and

1:01:04

said, what is your favorite Kamala Harris

1:01:06

policy? Why are you supporting her? What

1:01:08

is the number one policy that's causing

1:01:10

you to support her? No one in

1:01:13

the video could name a single policy

1:01:15

that she had. It was all about

1:01:17

joy. Then you could say that, okay,

1:01:20

she had policies that were good. I

1:01:22

think she did have actually some good

1:01:24

policies that were better than Trump, of

1:01:26

course, but she couldn't communicate those. And

1:01:29

she knew that if she went into

1:01:31

these spaces, she's her whole platform was

1:01:33

so completely out of touch with what

1:01:35

young people said that they wanted, and

1:01:38

that Joe Biden promised them back in

1:01:40

2020, right, like all of this other

1:01:42

stuff about like health care. And so

1:01:44

she couldn't go into those spaces. And

1:01:47

I think if we want a democratic,

1:01:49

if we want power on the left,

1:01:51

first of all, we need funding, we

1:01:53

need massive amounts of funding, we need

1:01:56

coordination, and we need a democratic party

1:01:58

that actually espouse. left ideals and I

1:02:00

mean left not like super leftist we're

1:02:02

not talking about super leftist we're talking

1:02:05

about broadly popular policies there's a reason

1:02:07

why people in a lot of states

1:02:09

that voted against Kamala voted for progressive

1:02:12

policies right you had was it Minnesota

1:02:14

or whatever voted for like the $15

1:02:16

minimum wage voted for paid parental leave

1:02:18

like these policies are popular And the

1:02:21

only reason the Democrats aren't supporting

1:02:23

them is because they want to

1:02:25

cater to these billionaires that are

1:02:28

busy funding aid and Ross types

1:02:30

for the next generation. Like, it's

1:02:32

just, it's so crazy. Yeah, yeah.

1:02:34

Shortly before the election, there was

1:02:37

a, why am I not speaking? It is

1:02:39

late. These are good rants, by the way.

1:02:41

Well done. Drives me crazy. Shortly

1:02:43

before the election, wired, published.

1:02:45

this infographic that was really

1:02:48

interesting and it was called

1:02:50

a visual guide to the

1:02:52

influencers shaping the 2024 election.

1:02:54

They basically got like 25

1:02:56

influencers on what they called

1:02:58

the left, 25 influencers on

1:03:01

the right. The thing that

1:03:03

really jumped out to me

1:03:05

about this infographic

1:03:07

is that the most

1:03:09

popular influencers on the

1:03:11

left infographic are like some

1:03:13

of the smallest on the right

1:03:15

in terms of following size. Right?

1:03:18

So it's like the influencers with

1:03:20

the biggest following who are leftists

1:03:22

have a million followers, a couple

1:03:24

million followers. The biggest influencers on

1:03:26

the right are Elon Musk who

1:03:29

has 200 million followers, the Paul

1:03:31

brothers who each have over 20

1:03:33

million followers. And again, it's like

1:03:35

there's no shortage of... content creators

1:03:37

making leftist content and even liberal

1:03:40

content. We just don't have funding.

1:03:42

It's like the apparatuses through which people

1:03:44

view this content is not neutral. Exactly.

1:03:46

And that goes back to like the

1:03:48

problems of the platforms, right? Like the

1:03:50

platforms are also built to reward conservatives.

1:03:53

The irony, this is the irony of

1:03:55

Elon Musk Buy and Twitter. There was

1:03:57

that great political story in 2021 that

1:03:59

really pulls. out all of the analysis

1:04:01

and looked at it and found that

1:04:03

Twitter was overwhelmingly boosting conservative voices. We

1:04:05

know that YouTube has birthed tons of

1:04:07

conservative influencers. Algorithms reward extremism and they

1:04:10

do not reward nuance and the right

1:04:12

thrives on fear and extremism. I mean

1:04:14

conservative ideology is all about sort of

1:04:16

like othering and scaring people and that

1:04:18

performs well on the internet, especially on

1:04:20

social media. And now you have also

1:04:23

like Elon Musk just openly using his

1:04:25

the entire platform of Twitter to influence

1:04:27

the election very successfully. As you mentioned,

1:04:29

right? Like there, there are these leftist

1:04:31

and I say leftist meaning like LGBTQ,

1:04:33

right? People that care about like rights,

1:04:35

disability justice activists with followings, especially from

1:04:38

TikTok, like Tiktak gave so many people,

1:04:40

especially progressive people voices on the internet

1:04:42

in a way that you too really

1:04:44

didn't. And they just don't have these

1:04:46

things like. turning point USA or the

1:04:48

Daily Wire. It's like these, these theater

1:04:51

programs that build these people at the

1:04:53

barstool universe, right, where you like start

1:04:55

in, you get in early, they train

1:04:57

you up, you get good, you get

1:04:59

big, and then you launch on your

1:05:01

own. Because those people are espousing beliefs

1:05:04

that fundamentally support people in power, which

1:05:06

is something you taught me. I sound

1:05:08

like Taylor Larens. Well, this is why

1:05:10

Barry Weiss is able to get tens

1:05:12

of millions of dollars. If you tell

1:05:14

rich people. They're the victim and you

1:05:17

just tell them everything you want to

1:05:19

hear and you don't challenge power. They'll

1:05:21

prop you up and they'll prop you

1:05:23

up as quote-unquote independent media. There's nothing

1:05:25

independent about the right-wing media ecosystem on

1:05:27

the internet. It is entirely bought and

1:05:29

paid for. Also enwired, Brian Barrett wrote,

1:05:32

the world of conservative influencers dwarfs their

1:05:34

liberal counterparts in both follower size and

1:05:36

impact. In the same way Democrats never

1:05:38

found their own rush limbaugh, they don't

1:05:40

have a Stephen Crowder or a Ben

1:05:42

Shapiro or even, so help us, a

1:05:45

Tim pool. There are Democrats with followings

1:05:47

online, but the cumulative gap in people

1:05:49

paying attention to what they say is

1:05:51

several orders. of magnitude wide. Like you

1:05:53

said, even when right wingers get deplatform

1:05:55

from places like Instagram and YouTube for

1:05:58

being, you know, overtly misogynist or neo-Nazis

1:06:00

or saying fagget, which I can say

1:06:02

because there's a cottage industry of conservative,

1:06:04

like mirror social networks that are like

1:06:06

Twitter and I mean now you can

1:06:08

be a neo-Nazi on Twitter, but that

1:06:11

are like YouTube or Instagram or any

1:06:13

of these other apps. Rumble, there's kick,

1:06:15

there's getter, parlor, truth social, gab, and

1:06:17

all of these platforms, they say they

1:06:19

exist, you know, be uncensored, freedom to

1:06:21

post whatever you want, unmoderated, like, this

1:06:23

is how social media should be. Who

1:06:26

is posting on websites that are just

1:06:28

worse versions of the social media platforms

1:06:30

that already exist? People who got kicked

1:06:32

off, why did they get kicked off?

1:06:34

Because they're fucking wild. So Rumble, like

1:06:36

there was this report that came out

1:06:39

that said like, I don't know, so

1:06:41

and so like on Rumble got 10X

1:06:43

as many views as like Hassan Pike

1:06:45

or whatever. And it's like, yeah, because

1:06:47

Rumble, a view on Rumble is not

1:06:49

the same as a view on Twitch,

1:06:52

Twitch actually is a legitimate platform. A

1:06:54

lot of these other platforms will sort

1:06:56

of like inflate their view count and

1:06:58

make things seem bigger than they are

1:07:00

to attract advertisers and to make it

1:07:02

seem like they're more influential than they

1:07:05

are. and that sort of feeds their

1:07:07

influence that gets them bigger opportunities because

1:07:09

then they can go out and say

1:07:11

i got ten billion views on something

1:07:13

it's like Well, did you? You probably

1:07:15

got the equivalent of like 100,000 YouTube

1:07:17

views, but of course you've been deplatform

1:07:20

from YouTube and now you can go

1:07:22

claim. This is the reason that Elon

1:07:24

got rid of the view count that

1:07:26

Twitter was previously using. And now every

1:07:28

single API call is a view call

1:07:30

is previously using. And now every single

1:07:33

API call is a view. So you

1:07:35

can just have the tweet refreshing on

1:07:37

your page, even if you're tweeting from

1:07:39

a private account with no followers. Let

1:07:41

the page refresh, it got to 700

1:07:43

something views. Nice. 700 people didn't view

1:07:46

that right? It's just, it's view inflation,

1:07:48

and it's made to make things seem

1:07:50

more important and more impactful and more

1:07:52

influential than they are. And that sort

1:07:54

of feeds on itself. There's nothing like

1:07:56

that for the left. There's no leftist

1:07:59

Twitter or like leftist YouTube or something

1:08:01

that's like. I mean, there's, there's Blue

1:08:03

Sky, they're trying. Blue Sky is built

1:08:05

in an open protocol. So then to

1:08:07

come years later after disrespecting, literally just

1:08:09

disrespecting the internet for like decades and

1:08:11

be like, why don't we have like

1:08:14

a liberal milk boys. You don't have

1:08:16

anything. It's not that you don't have

1:08:18

a liberal mouth voice, you don't have

1:08:20

anything. Adam Fays wrote this quote which

1:08:22

is now circulating widely. Conservatives own digital

1:08:24

media, liberals own Hollywood. Hollywood is irrelevant.

1:08:27

Adam gave that quote to me for

1:08:29

my newsletter. And it was a good

1:08:31

quote. Adams 100, I mean, it's 100%

1:08:33

correct. I wish somebody would send that

1:08:35

quote to the DNC, because it's true.

1:08:37

And they have made no effort to

1:08:40

even court the internet. And look at

1:08:42

the way, I mean, I'm glad to

1:08:44

see that they're finally like calling Hasan

1:08:46

Piper up to quote him in a

1:08:48

story, the one successful influencer on the

1:08:50

left. Ouch. Just kidding. No, I'm kidding,

1:08:52

I'm kidding. Well, no, but like, you

1:08:55

know, Hasan's on like a new, like

1:08:57

he's just on a big level. Here's

1:08:59

the other thing with his son. He's

1:09:01

unreasonably good looking and like, cool and

1:09:03

dresses cool. Tell me about it. But

1:09:05

you know what I mean? Like, he,

1:09:08

Hasan would be an influencer no matter

1:09:10

what he was saying because he is

1:09:12

very attractive and very cool and very

1:09:14

cool. Hasan also, if you're listening to

1:09:16

this and you've never seen any of

1:09:18

Hasan-Pikers like streams or appearances on television,

1:09:21

go watch them. He's great. You know,

1:09:23

getting back to young men, like he

1:09:25

has this kind of heterosexual masculinity where

1:09:27

he does lift the weights and he...

1:09:29

He does, you know, he's like big

1:09:31

and musily and so focused on his

1:09:34

body. I'm sweating, but he does, it's

1:09:36

also just with the aggressive, it's, it's,

1:09:38

he has a sort of like aggression

1:09:40

with the way that he's, with he,

1:09:42

the way that he yells about politics,

1:09:44

like he, he has this way of

1:09:46

reaching out to young heterosexual men, that

1:09:49

like. They don't want to listen to

1:09:51

me. They don't want to listen like

1:09:53

the, you know, the fag with the

1:09:55

glittery nails. Exactly. And this is why

1:09:57

I think it's, he embodies this, this

1:09:59

body type, this like ideal of male

1:10:02

masculinity, right? He's like six, I don't

1:10:04

even know how tall, he's very tall,

1:10:06

he's like six, three or something, but

1:10:08

he's like, like cool and progressive in

1:10:10

a way, right, that has an audience

1:10:12

and makes his audience around progressive policies.

1:10:15

He also has endless patience on the

1:10:17

internet to sort of articulate those policies.

1:10:19

And that's something that's very rare. And

1:10:21

I think that's what has led to

1:10:23

his success. But how can you replicate

1:10:25

that, right? Like it's hard. Like Hassan

1:10:28

had that great interview with that, you

1:10:30

know, he interviews the guy who, I

1:10:32

can't remember his name. He has this

1:10:34

gym that they go to whatever and

1:10:36

he's talking to this gym owner on

1:10:38

stream. This was like a day or

1:10:40

two after the election. The guy voted

1:10:43

for Trump and he's sort of very

1:10:45

expertly. pushes him and sort of talks

1:10:47

about it. But that's the kind of

1:10:49

thing that a lot of people a

1:10:51

few years ago were like canceling people

1:10:53

for, where it's like, how dare you

1:10:56

talk to this person? How are you

1:10:58

engaged with this person? Like, I think

1:11:00

another thing that he does sand this

1:11:02

really well is he does engage in

1:11:04

these spaces, right? He'll go and he'll

1:11:06

talk to people that don't necessarily agree.

1:11:09

And I think he can go into

1:11:11

those spaces again, because he performs this

1:11:13

very traditional masculine role, whereas like, like,

1:11:15

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:17

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:19

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:22

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:24

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:26

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:28

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:11:30

like, like, like, like, like, But how

1:11:32

do you have more people like that?

1:11:34

You have more people like that by

1:11:37

building up infrastructure long ago. Let's not

1:11:39

forget, Hassan came up from the Young

1:11:41

Turks and he was huge on Facebook

1:11:43

video. He went viral, you know, in

1:11:45

2016 as the woe. Bay on Facebook

1:11:47

video. I don't, I think without the

1:11:50

young Turks, what would he be doing?

1:11:52

Who knows? Certainly not a huge Twitter.

1:11:54

And so you need that talent roster.

1:11:56

You need somewhere for like for people

1:11:58

to learn and grow and get better

1:12:00

at their craft before they really can

1:12:03

move on to the next level. One

1:12:05

thing can we just say like one

1:12:07

thing that I think we shouldn't take

1:12:09

away from this is we should do

1:12:11

misogyny but from the left. I don't

1:12:13

want people to say, oh, well, okay,

1:12:16

so let's just fund a bunch of

1:12:18

men on the left. And yeah, they're

1:12:20

misogynistic bros, but they're going to support

1:12:22

health care. Exactly. No. Yeah, totally. I

1:12:24

mean, we don't need Andrew Tate, who

1:12:26

like wants a $15 minimum wage. Right.

1:12:28

But we do need something. And the

1:12:31

last thing that I had on here

1:12:33

to ask you is if there can't

1:12:35

be a left-wing Joe Rogan. Can there

1:12:37

be? What should there be? What can

1:12:39

we do as consumers of media? And

1:12:41

in creators of media, like where do

1:12:44

we go from this colossal failure? Well,

1:12:46

first of all, we all have a

1:12:48

responsibility to use our platforms to speak

1:12:50

truth to power. And I think it's

1:12:52

very easy to get co-opted by power,

1:12:54

but I think we all need to

1:12:57

challenge power in any way that we

1:12:59

can. I think we all... need to

1:13:01

also hold the Democratic Party accountable, right?

1:13:03

Like, they shouldn't be allowed to run

1:13:05

these unpopular candidates based on nothing anymore

1:13:07

and shove them down. This is like

1:13:10

the third election they've done that, right?

1:13:12

Like, first it was with Hillary, it's

1:13:14

the most important election, they've done that,

1:13:16

right? Like, first it was with Hillary,

1:13:18

then it was with, like, just vote

1:13:20

Biden, it's the most important election of

1:13:22

our lifetime. Oh, you know, don't worry

1:13:25

about her too much, like, like, like,

1:13:27

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:29

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:31

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:33

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:35

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:38

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:40

like, like, like, like, like, like, like,

1:13:42

like, like, like, like, like, like But

1:13:44

I think that we need a democratic

1:13:46

party that is more accountable to people

1:13:48

and that's more modern. I think we

1:13:51

need to take the new media landscape

1:13:53

seriously and recognize that this is the

1:13:55

world that we live in. You can't

1:13:57

just live in denial. You can't just

1:13:59

go around doing interviews with PBS and

1:14:01

the New York Times and expect to

1:14:04

reach people online, you know, voters. And

1:14:06

I do think that we need to

1:14:08

do a better job of speaking to

1:14:10

men, especially young cis gender straight men.

1:14:12

Like clearly there's a problem. and clearly

1:14:14

they're getting radicalized by these bad people,

1:14:16

and there should be more people speaking

1:14:19

to them as peers and elsewhere, right?

1:14:21

Like we do need to have empathy

1:14:23

for these people, even teenage boys. We

1:14:25

need to have empathy for them. Even

1:14:27

though it's hard, and it is hard,

1:14:29

I guess the last thing I want

1:14:32

to add is like the only liberal

1:14:34

billionaire, like truly like outspoken liberal billionaire

1:14:36

that I can think of as Mark

1:14:38

Cuban. And if Mark Cuban wants to...

1:14:40

Start throwing millions of dollars at every

1:14:42

left-wing podcaster. I just want to say

1:14:45

that Mark Cuban my Dins are open

1:14:47

But I hope they do, right? Like

1:14:49

I would love for them to like

1:14:51

throw money at LGBTQ people, at people

1:14:53

of color, at people who haven't traditionally

1:14:55

had platforms, that are gaining platforms or

1:14:58

that have that spark. But I think

1:15:00

we need to build people up too,

1:15:02

right? And I think we need a

1:15:04

lot of voices that are that are

1:15:06

more progressive and aren't just like the

1:15:08

the safe people, right? Like I think

1:15:10

somebody posted something about George Soros and

1:15:13

maybe he gave money to like Pods,

1:15:15

America or something like. There's no meaningful

1:15:17

difference between POD Save America and the

1:15:19

New York Times in my opinion. Like

1:15:21

they're espousing the same capitalist neoliberal ideology.

1:15:23

That ideology does not resonate with a

1:15:26

lot of young people anymore. And a

1:15:28

lot of those people believe in populist

1:15:30

messaging and they care about things like

1:15:32

economics, but they also care about civil

1:15:34

liberties and rights and we need we

1:15:36

need media that speaks to them. Mark

1:15:39

Cuban. I'm rooting for you. I'll be

1:15:41

the intern at the Matt Bernstein Media

1:15:43

Collaborate. No, because I need Mark Cuban

1:15:45

to give you money too. Yeah, give

1:15:47

me money, Mark. I gotta pay my

1:15:49

rent. Ay, yay, Taylor, I know I

1:15:52

said it at the top, but let's

1:15:54

reiterate, where can people find more of

1:15:56

you now that you are handing it

1:15:58

out on your own? Speaking of needing

1:16:00

to pay the rent, please subscribe to

1:16:02

user magazines. It's user mag.co, not.com, and

1:16:04

it's my newsletter. I send it about

1:16:07

two or three times a week. It's

1:16:09

like online culture, internet culture, journalism. I

1:16:11

also am on YouTube. Please subscribe to

1:16:13

my YouTube. That is my project 2025

1:16:15

is getting my YouTube in order. I

1:16:17

do post there every week my podcast,

1:16:20

but I'm posting more. So subscribe and

1:16:22

hit me up. I'm just Taylor

1:16:24

Lorenz everywhere. Thank you so

1:16:26

much for making it this far with

1:16:28

us. My God if you've made

1:16:30

it this far in this

1:16:32

podcast, that means you're probably

1:16:35

consuming other election related content

1:16:37

as well And I would

1:16:39

advise you now shut your

1:16:42

laptop quit your podcast app Go

1:16:44

drink some water take a walk

1:16:46

enjoy the outdoors We probably could

1:16:49

all spend a couple hours looking

1:16:51

at the clouds as they go

1:16:53

by that's how I feel anyway

1:16:55

I love you