0:00

Hello, hello, and welcome back

0:02

to A Bit Fruity, the

0:04

podcast where we, as

0:06

connoisseurs of queer media, hold

0:09

space for the lyrics of

0:11

Defying Gravity. I

0:13

know you think I just tried to shoehorn that joke in

0:15

there, but that's literally what we're going to be doing today.

0:24

Today we are talking about

0:26

Wicked, and it is just me.

0:28

So brace yourselves and pray that

0:30

I don't fly off the handle.

0:32

But Matt, why are you talking

0:34

about Wicked? You don't need to.

0:36

This isn't a film podcast. I

0:39

know. That's what makes me so

0:41

nice. This is a podcast

0:44

where we tend to talk about

0:46

politics, the internet, gay things, and

0:49

unless you've been living under a rock,

0:51

you're probably aware right now that Wicked

0:53

is what is currently occupying the intersection

0:55

of all three of those things. And

0:57

as someone in gay media who wants

0:59

to hold space for that moment, here

1:02

we are. I talk about politics, and

1:04

Wicked is a deeply political story. I

1:07

talk about gay things, and one could

1:09

argue that Wicked is a deeply gay

1:11

story. I had no intentions of making

1:14

an a bit fruity episode about Wicked,

1:16

but I want to tell you what

1:18

landed us here today. So

1:20

I saw Wicked on Thursday night, and

1:22

I saw it with a few friends.

1:25

And as I was leaving the theater, my

1:28

literal first reaction to the

1:30

film was, oh my god,

1:33

Glinda is Megyn

1:35

Kelly. Well, Kelly's court

1:37

is back in session on the docket today.

1:39

Dirty words in disguise for the princess of pop.

1:42

Britney Spears pushing the envelope on

1:44

obscenity, getting rather crass in a

1:47

crafty way on her new hit

1:49

recording. Love me, hate me. All

1:52

of the boys and girls are begging to.

1:54

And then she says,

1:56

if you seek Amy.

2:00

Now, I know you may have some

2:02

questions about that thesis, not trying to jam my

2:04

thesis down your

2:23

throat right up front here, I promise

2:25

we will get to it. Anyway, I

2:28

decided I wanted to make an episode

2:30

interrogating and investigating the politics of Glinda,

2:32

a deeply complex and complicated character, as

2:35

we'll get into. So

2:37

I went and I saw it again, this time

2:39

so I could sit in the corner and basically

2:41

take notes throughout the movie, which I did. And

2:44

that was yesterday, and I have to

2:46

say, for some reason, upon leaving the

2:48

theater the second time, I was

2:51

absolutely in tears, in a way that I was

2:53

not the first time. I

2:55

take SSRIs and any of

2:57

my SSRI girlies out there are gonna know it

2:59

makes it really hard to cry. It's

3:02

actually like the one thing that I miss

3:04

the most from before being on SSRIs. Now,

3:07

I totally don't regret taking SSRIs,

3:09

they in many ways saved my

3:11

life, but I do miss crying. And

3:14

something about the fascist politics of

3:17

Oz getting in the way of

3:20

Glinda and Elphaba's budding and

3:22

beautiful and complicated relationship, I

3:24

was in tears like, fuck

3:27

the wizard, fuck Madame

3:29

Morrible, and you know what, fuck Dorothy

3:31

too while we're at it, just because.

3:34

I get back on track, Matthew. So

3:36

what I want to talk about today

3:39

is, yes, the political allegories in Wicked,

3:41

but specifically questions around Glinda, who I

3:43

think is one of the most psychologically

3:46

complex and conflicting characters in the show.

3:48

Is she good? Is she

3:50

wicked? Is she liberal? Is she conservative?

3:52

Is she gay? Before

3:56

we get started, if you would like to support

3:58

this show or would like more So

6:00

if you haven't seen the movie yet

6:03

or have gone 25 years without ever

6:05

seeing or hearing about the show No

6:08

shade to you all good but if

6:10

you are someone who's very concerned with

6:12

spoilers then maybe wait until

6:14

you've seen the movie to continue listening to the

6:17

episode if That's something you care about if you've

6:19

already seen it or you just want to keep rolling with the episode

6:21

I am going to explain the

6:23

basic plot of the first act of wicked

6:25

right now wicked tells the intertwined

6:27

backstory of Glinda the Good Witch

6:29

and Elphaba the Wicked Witch two

6:31

characters which were already familiar with

6:33

from the 1939 classic film the

6:35

Wizard of Oz based on the

6:38

1900 book by Frank L. Baum It's

6:42

a long time ago. This story has existed

6:44

for a long time We go into wicked

6:46

thinking obviously that Elphaba is the wicked

6:48

witch of the West and that Glinda is

6:51

the good witch and Wicked

6:53

serves to complicate that narrative and

6:55

some would argue flip it entirely

6:58

Wicked opens where the Wizard of Oz

7:00

ends with the citizens of Oz Learning

7:03

that the wicked witch of the

7:05

West has just been killed by

7:07

a little girl. You may know

7:09

her named Dorothy Dorothy was messy

7:12

as fuck Glinda visits

7:14

the people of Oz to confirm

7:16

the news and Basically

7:18

all of Oz is throwing a celebration that

7:20

the wicked witch of the West has been

7:22

killed. They're burning statues

7:24

of her there's posters everywhere

7:27

Exaggerating her features and painting her as

7:29

this sort of monstrous villain who's finally

7:32

been defeated during the opening song No

7:34

one mourns the wicked Glinda

7:36

is attempting to celebrate with the rest

7:38

of the ASEAN's who she's just confirmed

7:41

the news to but she's clearly Pained

7:44

and Ariana Grande does a great

7:46

job of showing that pain in

7:48

small ways with her face before

7:50

Glinda flees the scene and ASEAN

7:52

asks her if the rumors are

7:55

true that Glinda and Elphaba were

7:57

once friends This is such

7:59

a messy Also, imagine being

8:01

at a celebration, burning down statues

8:03

of this lady, and then being

8:06

like, wait, Glinda, is it

8:08

true that you were buddy-buddy with her?

8:10

Glinda initially says yes, and then she

8:13

walks it back immediately. She's like, well,

8:16

we didn't know each other. And then she

8:18

walks that back and says, well, we

8:20

crossed paths back at school. This

8:22

basically sets the scene for Glinda

8:24

to narrate the rest of Wicked,

8:26

which is the backstory starting from

8:28

when they were young children of

8:31

how Glinda and Elphaba came to

8:33

be in one another's lives. Glinda

8:35

grew up in upper-class spoiled brat,

8:38

while Elphaba was the daughter of

8:40

the mayor of Munchkin Land, but

8:42

not biologically, because actually, Elphaba's mom

8:45

had an affair with an unknown

8:47

traveler, and as such,

8:49

Elphaba was born green. Elphaba

8:52

spends her whole childhood shunned and silenced

8:54

by her father, as well as bullied

8:56

by the rest of the world at

8:58

school and anytime she went out in

9:00

public for being green. This is that

9:02

very clear racism allegory I was talking

9:04

about. Anyway, Elphaba and Glinda

9:06

end up at Shiz together. Shiz

9:08

is, like, I don't know, the

9:11

University of Maryland of Oz. Glinda

9:13

and Elphaba get assigned to dorm together,

9:16

and initially, they hate each other. Glinda

9:19

hates Elphaba for the same shallow

9:21

reasons everybody else does. Elphaba

9:23

hates Glinda because Glinda represents, you know,

9:25

everyone who's always been mean to her

9:28

and is also a

9:30

glaring example of societal

9:32

inequality and blind privilege.

9:34

Eventually, Glinda and Elphaba

9:36

grow to become best

9:38

friends, maybe even more...

9:40

lesbians? Just kidding. I mean, I'm

9:42

not just kidding, but this is not that video. But

9:45

it can be, if you want it to

9:47

be. But they become closer through a series

9:50

of events in which each of them grow

9:52

empathetic towards the plight of the other. Elphaba

9:54

is naturally drawn towards social justice, which makes

9:56

a lot of sense because she has been

9:58

for her entire life. exposed

10:00

to inequality and discrimination. Elphaba also, even

10:03

though she knows it's shallow, laments the

10:05

fact that she's green and admits to

10:07

the viewer, but not to the people

10:10

around her, that she longs to be

10:12

a normal color. She pities

10:14

Glinda for being so shallow and

10:16

vapid, but also secretly longs for

10:18

some of the access and power

10:20

and beauty that Glinda has always

10:22

naturally had access to. Glinda, on

10:24

the other hand, finds personal fulfillment

10:27

in helping Elphaba achieve beauty and

10:29

status. This is where the song

10:31

Popular comes in. Popular,

10:33

you're gonna be popular. Just

10:38

kidding, you don't follow me for singing. This

10:40

is, by the way, a large part of why

10:43

Glinda helps anybody with anything. She's

10:45

obsessed with good deeds, but ultimately only

10:47

insofar as they can advertise her as

10:49

a good person to others. She cares

10:51

less about the good thing that she's

10:53

doing for someone else, and a lot

10:56

more about how that will reflect back

10:58

on her own image. In

11:00

short, Glinda and Elphaba each have what

11:02

the other lacks. Glinda

11:04

has riches and beauty and popularity,

11:06

but lacks a purpose bigger than

11:08

herself. Meanwhile, Elphaba has a deeply

11:11

held sense of purpose, but lacks

11:13

beauty and popularity. And

11:15

that divide initially yields loathing,

11:18

unadulterated loathing

11:21

between them, but it ultimately

11:23

allows them to foster empathy for

11:25

one another, and eventually even love.

11:28

And whether or not that's romantic love is for you

11:30

to decide. Meanwhile, a

11:33

fascist project is underway in

11:35

Oz. One of their professors,

11:37

Dr. Dillamond, who is a

11:39

goat, explains to them

11:41

how animals have long existed in

11:43

Oz on basically equal footing with

11:46

humans. She is,

11:48

for example, used to be full

11:50

of animal professors and scholars. But

11:52

as a result of political and

11:55

economic turmoil, animals like Dr.

11:57

Dillamond are being removed from society and

11:59

stripped of their right to speak by

12:02

a government that's blaming them for all of the

12:04

problems in Oz. In other

12:06

words, they're being scapegoated. Scapegoated.

12:10

Scapegoated. Dr.

12:14

Dillamond is a goat. Scapegoat.

12:19

Ohhhhh. Animals

12:21

in Oz are basically a stand-in symbol

12:23

for oppressed groups in society. Scapegoating

12:26

makes wicked so applicable to so many

12:28

different points in history. Because at various

12:30

points in history, the plight of the

12:33

animals in Oz could symbolize the plight

12:35

of Jews in Nazi Germany, or

12:37

when thinking about the United States right now really

12:40

resembles the scapegoating of,

12:42

for example, trans kids

12:45

or undocumented immigrants. People

12:47

who are essentially being pushed to the margins of

12:49

society to make people feel better about the fact

12:51

that they can't afford the price of groceries. Glinda's

12:54

life of facing anti-green discrimination has

12:57

made her privy to identifying with

12:59

other marginalized groups, and so she

13:01

takes up the marginalization of animals

13:03

as her cause. Glinda

13:06

initially doesn't really understand this because

13:08

Glinda has a hard time thinking

13:10

of anyone but herself. Dr. Dillamond

13:12

eventually gets taken away by the

13:14

Aussian cops, who, if I had

13:16

written the novel, I would have

13:18

made the cops pigs. Meanwhile,

13:20

Madame Morrible, who is one of

13:23

the more notable professors at Schiz,

13:25

she teaches magic, she's one of

13:27

the only people who's basically been

13:29

nice to Elphaba since the beginning

13:31

because she was always able to

13:34

recognize that Elphaba had the natural

13:36

powers of sorceress in a way

13:38

that Glinda and the other students

13:40

don't. Madame Morrible is training Elphaba

13:42

in the background to meet the

13:44

wizard, which Elphaba's super ecstatic about

13:47

because that's all of their

13:49

lifelong dreams, and she also hopes that

13:51

she'll be able to ask the wizard

13:53

to grant her one biggest wish, which

13:55

at this point is to be de-greenified.

13:57

She's also hoping that the wizard be

13:59

able to do something about the plight

14:01

of the animals because the wizard in

14:03

this story is kind of set up

14:05

as an allegory for like God or

14:08

Jesus, you know, a false prophet who

14:10

arrived one day who promised

14:12

that he could solve everybody's issues and

14:14

understand the world in a way that

14:17

nobody else fundamentally could and of course

14:19

he's unable to do any of those

14:21

things. Eventually they do get an invitation

14:23

to meet the wizard and Elphaba goes

14:25

and brings Glinda with her. They go

14:27

yada yada, Elphaba realizes

14:30

that the wizard has no power

14:32

but also realizes that he's been

14:34

the mastermind behind the fascist oppression

14:36

and rounding up of the animals.

14:38

The wizard, knowing that Elphaba has

14:40

magic that he does not possess,

14:42

wants to use her and her

14:44

magic to aid in his fascist

14:46

project. He promises Elphaba a place

14:48

in the castle where she can

14:50

live and essentially a spot in

14:53

his, you know, cabinet and says

14:55

that if she stays then Glinda

14:57

can join them. Elphaba refuses, she

14:59

starts running away, Glinda chases after

15:01

her, tells her to stop fighting

15:03

and just apologize to the wizard.

15:05

Madame Morrible gets on the Aussie

15:07

and loud speakers and declares Elphaba

15:09

a wicked witch and an enemy

15:11

of the state. Fuck Madame Morrible.

15:14

Michelle Yeoh, you are so lucky that you

15:16

had such a great performance in everything everywhere

15:18

all at once because you were so convincingly

15:21

evil and wicked that I actually almost started

15:23

disliking you as a person. Queen.

15:25

Elphaba creates a magic flying broom that

15:27

she can use to escape on and

15:29

she asks Glinda to come with her.

15:32

Insert defying gravity, which we are

15:34

about to hold some space for

15:37

the lyrics of. Elphaba and Glinda

15:39

at the end of the film

15:41

share this tender and decisive moment.

15:44

Elphaba decides that she's gonna flee and,

15:46

you know, become an enemy of the

15:48

state so as to not abandon her

15:50

morals, but Glinda doesn't have it in

15:52

her to do the same. She stays

15:54

behind and ultimately joins the wizard's fascist

15:56

project. Both of them have so much

15:58

love and respect. for each other at

16:01

this point that they are genuinely devastated to

16:03

say goodbye. And when they wish each other

16:05

well in this last scene, they really mean

16:07

it. And that's the end of the film.

16:10

Before we talk about Glinda, I

16:12

want to talk a little bit

16:14

about how Wicked represents fascism. There's

16:16

the things that are really obvious,

16:18

right? The scapegoating and othering of

16:20

the animals, the silencing of dissent,

16:22

the silencing and dehumanization of anyone

16:24

who speaks out against the fascist

16:26

project. But one of the sneakier

16:28

ways that they employ fascist tactics

16:30

in Wicked, which I thought was

16:32

really interesting, is the

16:34

way that the story leans into

16:37

associating goodness with physical beauty and

16:39

wickedness with physical ugliness. You know,

16:41

it's not a coincidence that Glinda

16:44

the Good Witch is played by

16:46

a petite, conventionally beautiful white lady,

16:49

and why Elphaba is green. As

16:51

Elphaba is running away from Madam

16:53

Marble and the Wizard at the

16:56

very end of the film, you

16:58

hear Madam Marble on the loudspeaker

17:01

saying, her green skin is

17:03

but a manifestation of her twisted nature.

17:05

Later on, but actually at the beginning

17:07

of the movie when she's already dead,

17:09

the posters that you see hanging around

17:11

at the celebration of her death are

17:14

all exaggerating her physical features like her

17:16

nose. I found this to be really

17:18

harrowing because it reminds me a lot,

17:20

and this is something I've talked about

17:22

on this podcast before, because it is

17:24

a very reliable way to dehumanize people,

17:27

right? Think about how the Jews were

17:29

depicted as rats and vermin and lice

17:31

during the Holocaust. I'll put up

17:33

some images of those posters on the screen, but

17:36

it's really disturbing. And it also

17:38

reminds me of the way

17:40

trans people are depicted in media now.

17:42

Think about the types of queer people

17:44

that libs of TikTok chooses to put

17:47

on blast. They usually can't pass as

17:49

cis. They oftentimes are hairy

17:51

or fat. And by the

17:53

way, I don't think there's anything wrong

17:55

with any of that. And I don't think

17:58

it makes anyone any less deserving of respect.

18:00

But... that clearly is the message of a

18:02

page like Libs of TikTok is that if

18:04

you are visually gender non-conforming

18:06

or fat or hairy, that outward failure

18:08

to conform to traditional standards of beauty

18:10

must be a reflection of your inner

18:12

wickedness. Just think about all the viral

18:15

tweets that you may or may not

18:17

have seen but they piss me off

18:19

so I'm happy that I found a

18:21

place to talk about them. These

18:24

viral tweets comparing current assistant secretary

18:26

of the Department of Health Rachel

18:28

Levine who's a trans woman who's

18:30

currently the highest ranking trans person

18:32

ever to be in federal government

18:34

with RFK. There's

18:36

all these viral tweets like this

18:39

one from Twitter user normalcatholicgirl who

18:41

said Department of Health 2020 versus 2024 and on the left

18:43

it's a picture of

18:47

Rachel Levine and on the right it's

18:49

a picture of RFK Jr. The

18:52

idea of holding up RFK Jr. as the pinnacle

18:54

of health in any sense is very funny

18:56

to me but it's RFK

18:58

Jr. shirtless looking muscular

19:01

looking ripped and the

19:03

idea here is that Rachel Levine

19:06

is a worse and less competent

19:08

person because she

19:11

what is trans? Also

19:13

not that it's really my business to

19:15

speculate but it's pretty clear

19:17

to me that RFK takes some sort

19:20

of performance enhancing drugs or like HGH

19:22

or testosterone or something for his muscles

19:24

to look that way at his age

19:26

so the idea that because

19:28

he looks like that is he's inherently

19:31

healthy or healthier than Rachel Levine is

19:33

just ridiculous. But what we're describing

19:36

here more generally is phrenology which

19:38

is a pseudoscience that

19:40

basically takes the shape of

19:42

someone's skull and uses it

19:44

to draw conclusions about their character and

19:47

you can see how and why

19:49

that that's been used by fascist

19:51

movements many times throughout history. It's

19:53

what happens in Oz and it's

19:55

what's happening in America which by

19:57

the way sometimes like liberals online

19:59

try to do a sort of

20:01

woke phrenology where they're like, why

20:03

do all conservative men have a

20:05

similar face? Why does Charlie

20:08

Kirk have this inherently conservative smile?

20:10

Guys, don't do that.

20:12

Trying to make inferences about someone's character or

20:14

politics by the way they look, it's a

20:16

real slippery slope. And when that same line

20:19

of thinking gets used against you, you're

20:21

going to realize why it was never good to

20:23

begin with. Sorry, just a little rant. Like, guys,

20:26

we don't want to do left wing phrenology. It's

20:28

not a good look. You

20:31

know, I do this whole

20:33

operation myself. I research and film

20:35

and edit this podcast. I do

20:37

all the social media stuff. It's

20:39

all me. It's all me. And

20:42

I'm not complaining. I love my

20:44

job. I do. But

20:46

one does run out of time to do, you know,

20:49

other things that you need to be a

20:51

person like cooking.

20:53

And so I would like to

20:55

thank Factor not only for sponsoring

20:57

today's episode, but also just, you

21:00

know, for existing Factor is a

21:02

meal delivery service designed by nutritionists

21:04

and prepared by gourmet chefs and

21:06

everything is ready in two

21:08

minutes. I mean, that's the kicker for

21:11

me. There's no shopping. There's no cooking.

21:13

There's no preparing. There's no cleaning up.

21:15

Work smarter, not harder. You know, on

21:18

Factor, there are all sorts of nutritional

21:20

and dietary options so you can make

21:22

sure that you're getting the ingredients and

21:24

the nutrients that you want no matter

21:27

what your needs are. And with 35

21:29

meals to choose from each week, you

21:31

won't get bored. No shade

21:33

to the Jim Bros who cook

21:36

grilled chicken to eat for a

21:38

month straight. Really no shade if

21:40

I could, I would, but I

21:42

can't. So I don't. If you

21:44

would like to try Factor, head

21:46

over to factor meals.com/fruity 50 and

21:49

use the code fruity 50 for 50% off

21:51

your first box and

21:54

20% off your

21:56

next month. That's factor

21:58

meals.com/fruity 50. 50

22:01

with the code FRUDY50. Thank

22:04

you so much to Factor for sponsoring

22:06

today's episode, and let's get back to

22:09

the show. OK,

22:12

we've discussed fascism. Now

22:14

let's discuss Glinda. Ariana Grande,

22:16

please come to the stage. I

22:19

think Glinda is such a rich text. You

22:21

know, you could argue that at its core,

22:24

Wicked completely subverts the idea of the

22:26

Wicked Witch and the Good Witch revealing

22:28

Elphaba to actually be the good one,

22:30

the hero, if you will, and

22:33

Glinda to be the real Wicked

22:35

Witch. And while I certainly agree

22:37

that Elphaba is good, I

22:39

think drawing a conclusion on Glinda

22:42

and her politics and her motivations

22:44

is actually a little more complicated.

22:47

Elphaba's politics are somewhat straightforward.

22:49

She is a leftist and likely

22:51

a black leftist at that. She's

22:53

been racially discriminated against her whole

22:56

life and practices intersectionality by standing

22:58

in solidarity with other groups against

23:01

the institutions that oppress them all.

23:03

And for doing this, she gets

23:05

labeled as a treasonous terrorist. Does

23:08

that sound familiar? Elphaba, it's

23:10

worth noting, also has a lot

23:12

less to lose than Glinda. Glinda

23:14

comes from an upper class background.

23:17

And coming into the film, she

23:19

lives her life in such a

23:21

degree of comfort and wealth that

23:23

she literally cannot understand when something

23:25

doesn't go her way. That's her

23:27

origin, total delusional self-absorption. Like

23:30

I said, she does have a

23:32

penchant for helping others, but only

23:34

when it serves her own image

23:37

and not if it requires taking any

23:39

sort of risk or sacrificing her own

23:41

comfort. And on top of that, sometimes

23:43

she misdiagnoses what she's even trying to

23:45

help. A little bit of a pink

23:47

savior complex, if you ask me. Like

23:50

when she first gets to Shiz and

23:52

she sees Elphaba for the first time,

23:54

she unprompted, apologizes to Elphaba for the

23:56

fact that she's green and says that

23:58

she'll help Elphaba work. through it, to

24:01

which Elphaba replies, I don't really have to

24:03

work through it, mind your fucking business, it's

24:05

fine. Elphaba's sister, who I've failed to mention

24:08

up until this point, is

24:10

also at Shiz and in a wheelchair.

24:12

Her name is Nessa. Glinda

24:14

pities Nessa in the most

24:16

patronizing, ableist way possible by

24:18

continuing to call her tragically

24:20

beautiful. Throughout the story though,

24:23

and through her relationship with

24:25

Elphaba, I would argue that

24:27

Glinda becomes a little more aware,

24:30

a little more observant, a little more

24:32

caring, dare I say it, a

24:34

little more woke. And by the

24:37

end of the film, she's genuinely

24:39

supportive of Elphaba's decision to take

24:41

a revolutionary fight from the outside

24:43

kind of stance, but not enough

24:45

to join her. Ultimately, Glinda

24:48

devotes her life to upholding a system

24:50

that she knows is corrupt. She knows

24:52

that the wizard is full of shit,

24:55

but she commits to helping him with

24:57

his fascist project, which involves dehumanizing minorities

24:59

and dehumanizing her best friend, because what

25:02

she values most is comfort and power.

25:05

So where exactly do

25:07

Glinda's politics land? And

25:10

if you want this to be a Glinda

25:12

roast, it's not gonna be that. But if

25:14

you want it to be a Glinda celebration,

25:16

it's also not gonna be that. I'm a

25:18

Glinda skeptic and I'll tell you why. I

25:21

think if we were to project

25:23

our current political landscape onto Glinda,

25:26

she would represent various aspects

25:28

of conservatism, of

25:31

evangelical Christianity, of

25:33

liberal centrism, and

25:35

of white feminism, all of which

25:37

have circles that overlap at different

25:39

points. At her absolute worst, and

25:41

perhaps at her introduction, Glinda

25:44

could be seen as a conservative hack

25:46

who cares about nothing and no one

25:48

but herself and preserving her wealth and

25:50

comfort. This is how we're introduced to

25:53

Glinda, but there are also various

25:55

points later in the film where she

25:57

betrays the fact that there's still a

25:59

lot of this in her under- lying

26:01

ideology and worldview. Like right before she

26:03

and Elphaba get on the train to

26:05

go to Oz, which is

26:07

about two-thirds of the way through

26:09

the film, Glinda is complaining to

26:11

Elphaba about how her boyfriend, Prince

26:13

Fierro, has been really emotionally removed

26:16

from the relationship ever since the

26:18

day that Dr. Dillaman, the goat

26:20

teacher, was taken away by the

26:22

police, the Ozzy and Gestapo. Fierro

26:24

was really taken aback by that

26:26

and hadn't been the same since.

26:28

And Glinda, recalling this, says, who

26:30

knew he cared so much about

26:33

that old goat? Glinda, I think,

26:35

is also a pretty heavy-handed parody

26:37

of evangelical Christianity. You

26:39

know, for most of the film,

26:41

Glinda is very fixated on the

26:44

aesthetic of kindness. She's much more

26:46

concerned with everyone thinking that she's

26:48

kind, but much less concerned with

26:51

the material outcome of how she

26:53

treats other people. Does that sound

26:55

familiar? Glinda's a very

26:57

bless-your-heart type of kind. If you're

27:00

from the South, you know what

27:02

I mean. She's

27:06

very, I love

27:09

gay people. I love them

27:11

enough to tell them that

27:13

their sin is taking them to hell.

27:15

I love homosexuals, if you can believe

27:17

that. I love them enough to tell

27:19

them the truth, because I know that

27:21

there is hope for the homosexuals that if they're

27:24

willing to turn from

27:27

sin the same as any individual, that

27:29

they can be ex-homosexuals the same as

27:31

there can be an ex-murder, an ex-

27:33

thief, or ex-anybody. Ugh, you know it's

27:35

not an episode of A Bit Fruity

27:37

unless I invoke a little Anita Bryant.

27:40

Glinda's only kind when it's in service

27:42

of improving her own image, and she's

27:44

capable of immense cruelty as long as

27:46

she believes that she's being kind. In

27:48

many ways, I think the fact that

27:50

Glinda ends up being known as the

27:53

good witch is kind of a

27:55

parody on how we view goodness.

27:58

You know, if you look the part and you of

32:00

trying to, you know, change

32:02

the system from the inside. But

32:05

back to this movie. Glinda turns her

32:08

back on Elphaba in the final hour

32:10

because she wants a spot in Trump's,

32:13

I mean, the wizard's, cabinet.

32:16

Trump announces Glinda as Secretary

32:18

of Glamour! And ultimately, although

32:20

she sacrifices the love and friendship of

32:22

her life for it, she does get

32:24

it! She's made Glinda

32:27

the Good Witch. Pause! I

32:30

want to talk about Megyn Kelly.

32:32

Megyn Kelly is a conservative news

32:35

commentator and former Fox News host.

32:37

She was a frequent flyer on

32:39

Fox from 2004? Yeah,

32:44

2004 to 2017. In

32:47

2015, during the Republican presidential

32:49

primary debate on Fox News,

32:51

which Megyn Kelly hosted, she

32:53

asked Donald Trump if a

32:55

man of his temperament was

32:57

fit to be president. Mr.

32:59

Trump, one of

33:02

the things people love about you is you speak your

33:04

mind and you don't use a politician's filter. However,

33:07

that is not without its downsides, in particular,

33:09

when it comes to women. You've called women

33:11

you don't like fat pigs,

33:14

dogs, slobs, and

33:16

disgusting animals. Your

33:18

Twitter account is several— Only Rosie O'Donnell. No,

33:23

it wasn't. For

33:25

the record, it was well beyond Rosie

33:27

O'Donnell. Yes, I'm sure it was. Your Twitter account

33:29

has several disparaging comments about

33:31

women's looks. You once

33:33

told a contestant on Celebrity Apprentice it would be a

33:35

pretty picture to see her on her knees. Does

33:38

that sound to you like the temperament of a

33:40

man we should elect as president? I

33:42

think the big problem this country

33:45

has is being politically correct.

33:47

This was the first time that he

33:49

ran for president. This was

33:51

like 16 lives ago.

33:53

The next day, in an interview

33:56

with Don Lemon, Trump made

33:58

wildly memorable and misogynistic comments

34:00

about Megyn Kelly, including an insinuation that

34:02

she was on her period while she

34:04

was moderating the debate and that's why

34:06

she put even the slightest amount of

34:08

pressure on Trump. She gets out and

34:10

she starts asking me all sorts of

34:12

ridiculous questions and you know you could

34:14

see there was blood coming out of

34:16

her eyes, blood

34:18

coming out of her wherever. This

34:21

led to a long media row

34:23

between Megyn Kelly and Donald Trump.

34:26

And there was by the way some conservative

34:28

media backlash to it at the time. Like

34:31

there were other conservative pundits who were like

34:33

Donald Trump that was out of line you

34:35

can't say shit like that. But you know

34:37

that was many moons ago. Back when some

34:40

people in conservative media had fucking spines and

34:42

were willing to criticize him. A

34:45

year later in 2016 amid

34:47

a lawsuit against the head of

34:49

Fox News Roger Ailes alleging that

34:51

he had been sexually abusing female

34:53

employees at Fox for years it

34:55

was revealed that Megyn Kelly internally

34:57

came forward as a victim of

34:59

his harassment. This whole ordeal was

35:01

fictionalized by the way in the

35:03

movie Bombshell where Megyn Kelly is

35:06

perfectly played by Charlize Theron

35:09

and you should pause this podcast and go watch

35:11

that movie. It is so good and that

35:13

movie is from 2019 and it makes

35:15

the rest of Megyn Kelly's career arc even

35:18

more pathetic and sad to watch.

35:20

That lady went through so much

35:22

misogyny, sexual harassment, so much bullshit

35:24

while she was at Fox News

35:27

and the fact that she landed where she is

35:29

today is just well

35:32

give me a second. Shortly

35:34

after the 2016 Roger Ailes harassment

35:36

suit was the 2016 Republican

35:38

National Convention where Megyn

35:41

Kelly wore a you know

35:43

strappy black dress. First

35:45

of all she looked so good and I hate

35:47

saying anything nice about Megyn Kelly but she looked

35:49

fabulous and for this strappy

35:52

black dress she was absolutely lambasted

35:54

by conservative media pundits. And so

35:56

amidst the falling dominoes

35:58

of anti- die Megan Kelly

36:01

misogyny, she was briefly

36:03

portrayed by popular media as this

36:05

sort of feminist figure,

36:07

and for one brief and fleeting

36:10

moment, she took up the cause.

36:12

She left Fox in 2017 when

36:14

her contract expired, and

36:16

had a two year stint hosting

36:18

a daytime talk show on NBC,

36:20

where she briefly ditched the conservative

36:23

news commentary for something honestly a

36:25

lot more mellow. So this

36:27

is really random and something I

36:30

have never spoken about, but my

36:32

aunt went on this briefly existing

36:34

Megan Kelly talk show. So

36:39

you're probably wondering who my aunt is. My

36:43

aunt was in a cult. My

36:47

aunt was raised in the cult, the Mooneys. Her

36:49

name is Lisa Cone. She wrote a book about

36:51

it. I talk to her

36:53

all the time. I love her so much. Shout

36:56

out Lisa. But when my aunt

36:58

was promoting the book that she published, you

37:00

know, I guess six or seven years

37:02

ago, she did a daytime

37:04

talk show sit down interview with Megan

37:06

Kelly, who as far as I'm aware, was

37:09

really nice at the time. I'll link my

37:11

aunt's book about growing up in and then

37:13

escaping a cult in the episode description I

37:16

suppose. Didn't, didn't think I was gonna talk

37:18

about that one today, but is I suppose

37:21

a small world. Megan Kelly's little

37:23

daytime talk show stint ended in

37:25

October 2018 when she did a

37:27

segment defending

37:30

blackface and discussing how

37:33

back in her day you could

37:35

wear blackface in a Halloween costume

37:37

and it was okay before the

37:39

Wokes came along. What is racist?

37:42

Because truly you do get in trouble if you

37:44

are a white person who puts on blackface on

37:46

Halloween or a black person who puts on whiteface

37:48

for Halloween. Like,

37:50

that was okay as long as you were dressing

37:52

up as a character. There was a controversy on

37:55

the Real Housewives of New York with Luann as

37:57

she dresses Diana Ross and she made

37:59

her skin look darker than it really is and people

38:01

said that that was racist. And I don't know, I

38:03

felt like who doesn't love Diana Ross? She wants to

38:06

look like Diana Ross for one day. I

38:08

don't know how like that got racist on Halloween. Megan,

38:13

girl, you

38:15

make it so hard to defend you.

38:18

So after being canceled by the blue

38:20

haired woke left for being

38:22

racist, she returned to

38:24

the cozy arms of conservative

38:26

news media, launching a now

38:28

very popular Sirius XM podcast,

38:30

the Megan Kelly show, where

38:33

she as of this morning

38:35

is on air defending Trump's

38:37

secretary of defense pick Pete

38:39

Hegseth from his own sexual

38:41

assault allegations. This allegation

38:44

should not tank his nomination. It's

38:47

not fair to cost him a position

38:49

like this based on an

38:51

unsubstantiated accusation. It doesn't become

38:53

more substantiated because it wound up in

38:56

a police report, maybe slightly more

38:58

because she's at least taking the risk of, you know,

39:02

potentially perjuring herself when she goes down

39:04

this lane lane, but not much.

39:06

Here's the thing. Fuck Megan

39:09

Kelly. But also, I

39:12

can't help but feel like she's lost a bit

39:14

of her soul in all of this,

39:16

right? I mean, while Trump was campaigning

39:18

this time around for president, Megan Kelly

39:20

spoke at one of his events and

39:23

was on stage hugging him, hugging

39:25

the man who, because

39:27

she criticized him once, made a joke

39:29

on air about blood coming out of

39:32

her vagina. I

39:34

don't really at the end of the day

39:36

have much sympathy for Megan Kelly, because

39:39

I really think she's made her bed.

39:41

And not only that, but the rhetoric

39:43

that she's fused and the platform that

39:45

she's built to spew it hurts

39:47

so many people. I mean, the stuff that

39:49

Megan Kelly has been saying about trans people

39:52

is just reprehensible. But if I dig deep

39:54

in my soul, which for just

39:56

this moment I'm willing to do, and look for

39:58

some Megan Kelly, sympathy just as I try to

40:01

do with the other people I talk about on

40:03

this podcast like Riley Gaines.

40:06

I see people who have found

40:09

everything they wanted in terms of

40:11

power and success and

40:13

money and fame. And

40:15

yeah, they got it. Megyn Kelly got it.

40:18

But at what cost to her

40:20

integrity and her truth and

40:23

her soul? Megyn Kelly has to go

40:25

to bed at night knowing that speaking

40:27

honestly about the horrific

40:30

misogynistic abuse, both

40:32

physical and verbal, that she's received from

40:34

all of these conservative men around her

40:36

stands in the way of her professional

40:39

ambition and having the career that she

40:41

wants. And so the question is,

40:43

is it worth it? And maybe

40:45

for her it is, but it's not

40:47

without a cost. I

40:50

would like to give a quick

40:52

shout out to longtime friend and

40:55

sponsor of the show, Blue Land.

40:57

The holidays are notoriously a time

40:59

of even more waste

41:01

than we usually produce. Between Thanksgiving

41:03

and New Year's, Americans throw away

41:07

25% more trash than usual. Blue

41:09

Land is one way to make

41:11

your holiday shopping a little less

41:14

wasteful. Blue Land is a home

41:16

cleaning essential company that operates from

41:18

a philosophy that home cleaning

41:20

supplies simply does not have to

41:22

be as wasteful as it has

41:24

been. The idea is simple. You

41:26

grab one of Blue Land's very

41:28

cute, very chic forever

41:30

bottles, you fill it with

41:33

warm water, drop in a tablet of whatever

41:35

cleaning solution you're making, and get

41:37

to cleaning. Refill tablets start at just

41:40

$2.25, so it's not just better for

41:42

the planet, but also pretty easy on

41:44

your wallet. And with the refill tablets,

41:46

you just fill up your forever bottle

41:49

again and throw in a new tablet.

41:51

There's no buying plastic bottles over and

41:53

over, or ordering them online

41:56

where most of the shipping price you're

41:58

paying for is the water weight of

42:00

the planet. the product. The packaging on

42:02

all Blue Land products is honestly beautiful

42:05

enough that it really can serve as

42:07

a great holiday gift. What comes to

42:09

mind, especially in my experience, is

42:12

the hand soap and the kits that

42:14

they sell the hand soap in. So

42:16

you get a beautiful glass pump bottle

42:18

for hand soap and a ton of

42:20

different tablets, all of which are different

42:23

gorgeous holiday centric scents. If you

42:25

would like to try Blue Land, you can

42:27

get 15% off your first order over

42:32

at blueland.com/fruity. That's

42:34

15% off

42:36

on blueland.com/fruity.

42:39

Thanks so much to Blue Land for sponsoring

42:41

this show. And now let's

42:44

get back to it. I want

42:46

to switch gears. I want to switch

42:48

gears to Caitlyn Jenner.

42:50

Ariana, I am so sorry.

42:52

Caitlyn Jenner, a rich and

42:54

famous former decathlete, that means

42:57

I think 10 sports, good

42:59

for her, and partially responsible for

43:01

the spawn of the KarJenner dynasty,

43:04

publicly came out as transgender in

43:06

2015 with a cover of the

43:08

Vanity Fair magazine where she's posed

43:10

like a pinup girl. It's a

43:12

beautiful cover shot by Annie Leibovitz

43:15

and personal side note, I remember the day

43:17

that this magazine cover came out. I was

43:19

in high school, I first saw it when

43:21

I was sitting in art class with my

43:23

other gay friends, and we

43:25

were so excited. Caitlyn was

43:27

at the time, and honestly

43:29

probably still, the most famous

43:31

person to have ever come out as transgender.

43:34

And we were fucking stoked. But

43:36

after an exceptionally brief stint of

43:39

solidarity with other trans people, Caitlyn

43:42

ultimately took up the cause of

43:44

being an extraordinarily wealthy white woman,

43:47

campaigning for Republicans, and even

43:49

briefly running a campaign for

43:51

the Republican governor of California

43:53

in 2021. Caitlyn

43:56

Jenner for governor, like what the fuck

43:58

timeline do we live in? As you

44:00

may have heard, don't know

44:02

if you've heard, the Republican Party

44:04

took a sharp right turn into

44:07

the politics of the anti-trans culture

44:09

war over the last few years,

44:11

and while that has happened, Caitlyn

44:13

Jenner has not wavered. She

44:16

spent the last three years groveling in

44:18

submission at the feet of a party

44:20

that not only hates her, but

44:22

does not see her as a woman. And

44:24

by the way, isn't afraid to tell her that

44:26

whenever they have the opportunity to. Right

44:29

after Trump won the election a

44:31

few weeks ago, Caitlyn Jenner got

44:33

brunch with Donald Trump, his granddaughter,

44:35

and Elon Musk. A brunch

44:38

from which Caitlyn posted a photo to

44:40

her Twitter account where there were thousands

44:42

of replies from Republicans calling her a

44:44

man. And

44:47

so like Megyn Kelly did with

44:49

women, Caitlyn Jenner betrayed

44:51

her trans community in pursuit of power,

44:54

and she's gotten what she wanted, right? She

44:56

has a literal seat at the table with

44:58

some of the most powerful people in the

45:01

world, but at

45:03

what cost? And I

45:05

can't help but feel similarly about

45:07

Glinda, minus, you know,

45:09

the vehicular manslaughter. A lot of people,

45:12

in my opinion rightfully, criticize Glinda's decision

45:14

to align with power over her morals

45:16

or over her best friend. But something

45:19

that I want to acknowledge, something that

45:21

I want to throw in the mix,

45:24

is isn't Glinda ultimately punished

45:26

too? In defying gravity, Glinda

45:28

and Elphaba sing to each

45:30

other, I hope you're happy

45:32

now that you're choosing this, I really hope you get

45:35

it and you don't live to regret it. And this

45:37

is what I was thinking as I left the theater

45:39

crying last night, you know, ultimately,

45:42

which of them lives to get it, and which

45:44

of them lives to regret it? The superficial answer

45:46

is easy. Glinda

45:48

is made the good witch and is beloved

45:51

by Oz. Elphaba is

45:53

punished and shunned and relegated to the

45:55

outskirts of society and dehumanized for the

45:57

rest of her life. But despite all

45:59

of this, Elphaba gets to hang on

46:01

to her morals. She retains her moral

46:04

compass. She never wavers from her own

46:06

belief system. She, of course, doesn't have

46:08

the microphone to honestly communicate those morals

46:10

to the rest of Oz. But

46:13

to herself, to her inner

46:16

self, she never has to

46:18

lie. She lost everything, but she kept

46:20

her soul. Glinda, on the

46:22

other hand, is forced to abandon

46:24

not only her relationship to Elphaba,

46:27

but the truth of the fact that

46:29

she ever had a relationship with Elphaba.

46:31

Because that truth is not viable to

46:33

power. You know, at the beginning of

46:35

the episode, I talked about the beginning

46:38

of the movie, which the first song

46:40

is No One Mourns the Wicked, where

46:42

Glinda is sort of forcing herself to

46:44

take part in the celebration of the

46:46

death of her best friend. But there's

46:48

a real painful look in her face.

46:51

And when asked whether or not she

46:53

was ever friends with Elphaba, she

46:56

lies. And you can tell, again,

46:58

by the great acting of Ariana

47:00

Grande, that that lie is really

47:02

kind of eating her from the

47:05

inside. The relationship that Glinda had

47:07

with Elphaba, whether friendly or romantic,

47:09

who knows, it's up to you,

47:11

my little gay listener, was arguably

47:13

the most meaningful relationship Glinda ever

47:16

had, or at least that we

47:18

know about. And so the only way for her

47:20

to hold on to power and status and reputation

47:22

and fame is to lie about

47:24

this fundamental part of herself in

47:26

a way that I feel really parallels the

47:28

situations of Caitlyn Jenner or Megyn Kelly. People

47:31

who, to be clear, I have a lot

47:33

of disdain for for the harm that they

47:35

cause on others, but for whom, on a

47:37

psychological level, I think it's interesting to look

47:40

for the places where I can find sympathy

47:42

for them. Like, in the end, I think

47:45

Elphaba and Glinda are both punished.

47:48

Elphaba's punishment is more obvious,

47:51

but one could argue that Glinda's punishment

47:53

rots her deeper to the core. And

47:56

so lastly, is Glinda

47:58

the real Wicked Witch? After

48:00

I watched the movie for the first time,

48:02

and I decided I wanted to make a

48:04

podcast about it, my original title for this

48:06

episode was, Glinda is Sort

48:09

of a Fascist. A little harsh, a

48:11

little clickbaity, I know, I know. But

48:14

after watching it the second time, I

48:16

realized that writing her

48:18

off as a spineless,

48:21

self-absorbed, unforgivable right-wing narcissist

48:23

might be feeding into the very

48:25

thing that Wicked is warning against.

48:28

Which is, I think, an oversimplification

48:30

of who is Wicked and why.

48:32

The truth, well, you know, my

48:34

truth, is that I think throughout

48:36

the story of Wicked, even if just

48:38

in the part one movie which we're focusing on today,

48:41

Glinda reveals herself to be capable of

48:43

genuine good. She does have a rare

48:45

moment of selflessness when she takes up

48:47

friendship with Elphaba, knowing that the rest

48:49

of Shiz would judge her for it.

48:51

She's a conflicted and contradictory person, like

48:53

I said at the top of the

48:56

episode. But by the end, she clearly

48:58

has a lot of love for Elphaba,

49:00

and I also think she has good intentions. And,

49:04

and, those good intentions

49:07

aren't enough. Because without

49:09

commitment to principles and a belief

49:11

system that prioritizes people over power,

49:14

and ultimately, you know, her

49:16

prioritization of comfort over change,

49:18

she is susceptible to being

49:20

corrupted by power and

49:23

becoming a tool of the fascist

49:25

project, which is what happens. And

49:27

that, to me, cuts to one

49:29

of the core questions Wicked asks

49:32

us, which is what makes someone

49:34

wicked? How does wickedness happen? I

49:36

think that Glinda can ultimately represent

49:38

the banality of evil, or in

49:40

this case, the banality of wickedness.

49:43

The banality of evil is a

49:45

theory coined by philosopher Hannah Arendt,

49:47

who, in examining why the

49:49

Holocaust was able to happen, observed that

49:52

many people's unwillingness to question systems of

49:54

power, or even think for themselves, is

49:57

what ultimately allowed these systems to act

49:59

in the most evil way. possible. So

50:01

basically, I don't think Linda is wicked,

50:04

but she's not quite anti-wicked

50:06

either, and everyone,

50:08

including her, pays the

50:11

price. Well folks, how did I

50:13

do? How did I do? I, you

50:15

know what? I was afraid to do

50:17

an episode by myself. I've gotten used to like

50:19

the podcastiness of like, okay, it's always gonna be

50:21

me and someone else, we rally back and forth,

50:23

da da da da da, and

50:25

when I talked about doing this episode on

50:27

Patreon, people correctly pointed out like, you can

50:29

basically pluck any gay person off the street

50:31

in New York City and they will have

50:34

this conversation with you. But I was

50:36

like, let me challenge myself. Let me

50:38

see if I can do an episode myself. So

50:40

here we are. I hope you liked

50:42

it. I thought I hope it was

50:44

coherent. I am a little bit nervous

50:46

of entering this like fictional film slash

50:48

book slash musical analysis space as someone

50:50

who doesn't typically do that kind of

50:52

thing. But I gotta be

50:54

honest, this was fun for me. This

50:57

was a fun little thought exercise. I

50:59

thought the movie was absolutely fabulous. I

51:01

thought everyone in it did an amazing

51:03

job. You know, Cynthia Arevo, Jesus Christ,

51:05

my goodness. I hope you enjoyed this

51:08

episode. If you did, feel free to

51:10

share it with like, I feel like

51:12

everyone's having these conversations right now. Anyone who's seen the

51:14

movie, so share it in the

51:16

family group chat. I don't know. Send it

51:19

to Megan Kelly, who gives a

51:21

fuck. I love you so much.

51:23

Thanks for being here. And until

51:25

next time, stay wicked.

51:29

Oh, God, that was so fucking

51:31

corny. Jesus Christ. Stay

51:34

fruity. Goodbye.