0:00

like you're just guessing your way through

0:02

work and life lately? You're not

0:04

alone. Join Simon today

0:06

at 5 p .m. Eastern for

0:08

a live Q &A on simonsinnit.com

0:10

where he'll be answering your

0:12

questions on how to lead through

0:14

uncertainty in every part of your

0:16

life. Bring your questions and

0:19

let's find the answers together. And

0:21

right now, podcast listeners get

0:23

30 % off a subscription

0:25

to the Optimism Library on

0:27

simonsynic.com when you sign up

0:29

using the code POD30. That's

0:31

P -O -D -3 -0.

0:34

This code expires today, so subscribe now,

0:36

and we'll see you there. So

0:40

you are officially the first guest who,

0:42

when I said, would you like a

0:44

drink, you said, I'd love a scotch.

0:46

Yeah. And so you're preparing yourself what this

0:48

conversation might be. And you are

0:50

actually drinking. But let's be clear, you know,

0:52

you didn't pour it here. I didn't pour

0:54

a tumbler of it. It wasn't like drunk

0:56

history. No, it's not drunk history. Let's do

0:58

the drunk history of your life. What

1:01

happens after you reach the top? There's

1:03

only one place to go. Corey

1:05

Richards has literally reached the

1:08

top of the world. As a

1:10

National Geographic photographer and filmmaker,

1:12

he climbed Mount Everest without oxygen.

1:14

He's also the first American to climb

1:17

an 8 ,000 meter or 26 ,000

1:19

foot peak during the winter. You

1:21

may know him from the iconic cover

1:23

of National Geographic, the one with the

1:25

selfie he took after he survived an

1:27

avalanche. But there's a twist. After

1:30

all that success, Corey did

1:32

not find peace. Instead,

1:34

he found chaos. Corey's

1:37

journey is about more than

1:39

conquering mountains. It

1:41

was wrong, vulnerable, and

1:43

deeply moving in ways I did

1:45

not expect. In fact, we talked

1:47

for so long that we decided to cut

1:49

his episode into two. It's

1:51

about conquering mental health, identity, and

1:53

what happens when we mistake

1:55

our biggest goals for our true

1:58

purpose. This

2:00

is a bit of optimism. Speaking

2:05

of whiskey, you

2:09

put in a tobacco thing. Yeah.

2:11

You got a glass of whiskey. Yeah. I've

2:15

got all the... You got all the

2:17

things. All the crutches. All the crutches, all

2:19

the pathologies. People think that like, oh,

2:21

he's totally, you know, he's gotten rid of

2:23

all this. And I mean, I think

2:25

that's one of the points of this is

2:27

the crutches aren't necessarily bad so long as

2:29

you see them as for what they

2:31

are. Like I'm self soothing my nervous

2:33

system is a wreck right now You

2:35

know and like so long as it

2:37

doesn't go down this like highly destructive

2:39

path. I think Giving yourself some

2:41

grace around that is actually probably

2:43

far more beneficial. We're jumping right

2:46

in yeah, I think you're 100

2:48

% right and I Think the the

2:50

crutches are not the unhealthy thing.

2:52

It's that some of the crutches are

2:54

unhealthy Yeah, right because you maybe

2:56

you smoked but now you just chew

2:58

gum right, right, so or maybe

3:00

you did X, know, you did something

3:03

very unhealthy. Yeah. And now you

3:05

just go to the gym every day. Right. You

3:07

know, we go for a run every day. Like

3:09

they're all forms, they can all

3:11

be forms of crutches. Right. And so

3:13

I think you're right. I think we

3:15

confuse, crutches are

3:17

good. Yeah. Not all crutches are

3:19

good. Not all crutches are

3:21

good, but also like to be

3:23

fair, substances in moderate doses

3:25

are also not. Terrible, you

3:28

know, like yeah, they're totally

3:30

enjoyable. It's just having your

3:32

value system or barometer

3:34

set to be like, okay,

3:36

well, you know, am I in a storm now

3:38

or am I just kind of like is am

3:41

I just riding the edge of the weather? Okay,

3:43

so that's a perfect preview now. So let's go

3:45

backwards. Yeah, let's go. Why do you have crutches?

3:47

Why is your nervous system shot? Didn't

3:49

you like Survive an

3:51

avalanche. Oh

3:53

my god, I love it. It's

3:56

so funny. I did survive

3:58

an avalanche. So I can I can

4:00

tell the story. I mean, sure. Let's hear

4:02

it. Everybody wants that story. So let's do

4:04

it. It's

4:06

like, unfortunately, you're like, Aretha

4:08

Franklin, like you have to sing respect. You've got to play

4:10

the hits. You've got to sing, right? Like. So,

4:15

well, and it's a very important, it's

4:17

like a very interesting point. of the

4:19

story because I so I went to

4:21

climb this mountain called Gashaburam 2 which

4:23

is a mountain it's the highest

4:25

mountain in the world it's in Pakistan

4:27

and just to give people some context

4:29

I've you know I I can run

4:31

through this because people need to know

4:33

there are 14 mountains in the world

4:35

that are higher than 8 ,000 meters

4:37

that is roughly 26 ,240 feet or something

4:39

like that one is in India eight

4:41

are on the border of Nepal and

4:43

Tibet and then five are in Pakistan

4:46

After they were all climbed in the

4:48

early 80s, the Polish, who are some

4:50

of the best climbers in the world,

4:52

were just like, all right. So

4:55

those were hard. Now let's just

4:57

make it harder. Let's go climb all

4:59

of them in the winter. And

5:01

so all of the nine south of

5:03

Pakistan had been climbed by 2000,

5:05

the winter of 2010, 11. And

5:07

I got invited by which is surprisingly

5:09

late. Yeah. Like only the past sort

5:11

of, you know, 10, 15

5:14

years. Yeah, exactly. None of the

5:16

ones in Pakistan have been climbed. Wow.

5:18

And so I got invited by a guy

5:20

named Simone Moro who's an Italian climber and

5:22

another guy, Dennis Arupko. Dennis didn't invite me,

5:24

but Dennis became a very good fees Russian.

5:26

And we just sit there and be like,

5:28

but Simone, why we bring stupid American boy?

5:31

Bro, I'm standing right next to you. He's

5:34

like, yes, be quiet, men talking. And

5:37

I was 29 at the

5:39

time. And

5:41

by the way, Simone has this voice

5:43

that is just epic. He's and I'm not

5:46

exaggerating. He told like this the whole

5:48

time. Very, very funny man.

5:50

And I tell the story of sitting in the

5:52

tent with him and he's like, I

5:54

mean, I've told this story a lot,

5:56

but it's hysterical. It's worth repeating. He's like,

5:58

you must come to Italy, most beautiful

6:00

beaches in the world. And I'm

6:02

like, bro, what? And he's like, most beautiful beaches

6:04

ever seen. And I'm like, what are you? And

6:06

he's like, and I was like, oh, he's talking

6:08

about beaches. Like

6:11

beaches. All right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. The

6:13

beaches. I'll come see the beaches. You know,

6:15

I'll come to the Amalfi or what I was

6:17

just most beautiful beaches in the world. Um,

6:20

so anyway, we're in

6:22

the middle of Pakistan in

6:24

winter, 26 years. 16

6:27

expeditions have tried and failed to climb one of these

6:29

mountains in the winter. People have died, whatever. I didn't

6:31

really know that. These were just like my heroes. So

6:33

I was like, yeah, of course I'll go. And

6:35

I wasn't even planning on going to

6:37

the summit necessarily. They just wanted sort

6:39

of, I was on the North Face

6:41

team at the time. And so we

6:43

end up climbing it. Like we get

6:46

this very, very narrow weather window. We

6:48

leave the tent. It's minus 51 centigrade

6:50

in the tent. in the

6:52

morning or I guess at night 11 o 'clock, we

6:54

climb through the night on February 2nd and we

6:56

get to the top. And up there,

6:58

it's about minus 80. The weather.

7:00

Centigrade. So it's

7:02

colder than that Fahrenheit at that point. Yeah,

7:05

yeah. So you're like, and there's

7:07

really no way to calculate it other

7:09

than like, it's colder than it was

7:11

a lot and there's a lot more

7:13

wind. So we get to the top,

7:15

the weather window starts to close and

7:17

we get hit by this incredible storm

7:20

on the way down. And we

7:22

make it back to our tent that night, just

7:24

barely. We make it

7:26

down to camp one the next day.

7:28

And you're in this huge glacial value,

7:30

big, big glacier with huge crevasses. And

7:32

on either side, there are these big

7:34

mountains. Now they have three feet of

7:36

snow on them and the wind's been

7:38

blowing. So it's created a very hazardous

7:40

situation. And we're just left

7:43

the tent and you have to go

7:45

sort of in this flat area and

7:47

very low cloud ceiling. And I hear

7:49

this like. crack and I'm just I'm

7:51

like I know what that is and

7:53

it's an avalanche and I look over

7:55

my shoulder I see it coming I

7:58

say run but there's no way to

8:00

run I mean you're in waist deep

8:02

snow and with heavy backpacks on and

8:04

and the the avalanche just hit us

8:06

and pushed us we were mostly taken

8:08

by the air blast because we were

8:10

on very flat ground which is also

8:13

very, very powerful. And the air blast is the

8:15

wind that the snow is pushing. Yeah, yeah. So

8:17

it just picks us up and throws us 500

8:19

feet. And of course, in my mind, I'm like,

8:21

okay, I'm dying. Everything's like

8:23

I'm dying. And

8:26

long story short, we

8:28

all ended up on top. I

8:31

would say miraculously, we got

8:33

thrown over these big crevasses and

8:35

there's ice chunks everywhere around

8:37

it. And I Immediately

8:40

after, as soon as I could get my

8:42

camera out, I turned it on and I took

8:44

this video of me crying, just like sobbing,

8:46

because I think there was this sort of dissociation

8:48

where I was trying to get away from

8:50

the experience, so I put a camera between me

8:52

and it. So, you

8:54

know, there's always been this barrier. It's

8:56

very interesting about photography is that there's

8:58

always literally a barrier between you and

9:00

what's happened. You're not present. You're

9:02

witnessing. And then about

9:05

an hour later, I took this other photo of

9:07

me. because I could just feel

9:09

my face and it's just me looking at the

9:11

camera and I've got all this ice all over

9:13

my beard and just I look shell shocked. Very

9:16

confused and that photo became

9:18

arguably my most famous photo

9:20

ever. Cover of National Geographic.

9:22

Got put on the cover

9:24

of National Geographic. This

9:27

whole trip opened the door to

9:29

National Geographic. It opened the door to

9:31

the sort of the skyrocketing of

9:33

my career. And at the

9:35

same time, because of complex post

9:37

-traumatic stress, all of the stuff

9:40

that happened in childhood, I

9:42

experienced a profound and prolonged episode

9:44

of PTSD. And

9:46

that was really the beginning of starting to

9:48

dive in really deep to the mental

9:50

health journey. But it took

9:52

really up until I

9:54

was about 41, so just

9:57

two years ago. over

9:59

a decade for me to start

10:01

to learn the language, then

10:03

I could talk about it, then I was

10:05

hiding behind it, then I was sort of

10:08

using it as a foe shield of vulnerability,

10:10

but I hadn't really internalized it. And then,

10:12

and then finally the embodiment came, right? But

10:14

it was also, so I look

10:17

at the photo, it's also kind of

10:19

what fractured my life in that

10:21

it, it elevated me to a place

10:23

where I could hide behind the

10:25

external. And there was this

10:27

Talk about no values, right? Because now

10:29

I'm in survival mode, which is what

10:31

PTSD is. So I'm constantly

10:33

just trying to survive and sustain

10:35

while living this high stimulation

10:38

external life and being eaten inside.

10:40

in my internal life and using

10:42

all of these coping mechanisms to

10:45

try to calm that down. So

10:47

that's where, you know, the problem

10:49

drinking comes in. That's where the

10:51

sex addiction comes in. And then

10:53

you start hiding these secrets and

10:55

you're harboring all this deep shame.

10:57

Secrets are the termites of intimacy

11:00

and love. The more secrets you

11:02

hold, the more it will erode

11:04

and fall apart. And eventually,

11:06

the tension between what you're projecting

11:08

and who you are will become

11:10

so great that you collapse. What

11:13

kind of kid were you? I was,

11:15

uh, I was volatile, meaning

11:17

that, like, I was a moody kid. And

11:19

my, somebody, just as a piece of the

11:21

backstory, my mom took me to see a

11:23

psychologist when I was one. Right.

11:26

So there's this very

11:28

deep story of mental health

11:30

that comes on the

11:32

scene pretty much immediately. Were

11:35

you the first kid? I was

11:37

the second. So my brother, who factors

11:39

very heavily into this story, also,

11:41

he was just more self -assured

11:43

and more sturdy, but that also

11:45

kind of made him an island.

11:47

We had a really marvelous early

11:49

childhood. Like, my parents were... They

11:52

were awesome. And where'd you grow

11:54

up? Salt Lake City. Okay. Where'd

11:56

you grow up? All over the

11:58

place, but my formative years were

12:00

in New Jersey outside of New

12:02

York City. I don't get what

12:05

exit Yeah, so I I mean

12:07

we we started skiing when we

12:09

were two we started climbing when

12:11

we were five and the whole Early

12:14

childhood development piece at least externally

12:16

was really beautiful and we we

12:18

spent a lot of time outdoors

12:20

both my parents were in education

12:22

and Yet there were some things

12:24

going on that laid the groundwork

12:26

very much for What I encountered

12:28

later, which was very tumultuous adolescents

12:30

which get to in just a

12:32

second but you know my mom

12:34

had postpartum depression with both of

12:36

us which If you

12:38

look at the sort of the psychological

12:41

machinations of early childhood development has a

12:43

profound impact specifically in attachment styles and

12:45

how we relate to our parents and

12:47

getting our emotional needs met and finding

12:49

coping mechanisms to Navigate that disconnect and

12:51

my mom also worked full -time. So my

12:53

dad was kind of our primary caregiver

12:55

because he was a school teacher. So

12:57

So we've formed this very tight bond

12:59

with dad early on and and My

13:02

mother did nothing wrong. There's no blame

13:04

here at all. It's just the way

13:06

it was. And then as we got

13:08

into our adolescence, and both of us

13:10

were smart kids, right? So we were

13:12

accelerated learners. Both of us went to

13:14

high school two years early. And both of

13:16

us were kind of smashing, getting

13:18

good grades. And then

13:21

there was this

13:23

development of violence. It

13:25

was very rageful. And

13:28

you were in the family? Between my brother

13:30

and I. Okay. And mostly aimed

13:32

at me, which for the longest time, I

13:34

was like, oh, poor me. Look, my

13:36

brother kicked the shit out of me. Brothers

13:38

fight. It's normal. But

13:41

this was different. It was very rage

13:43

fueled. And so to the point of

13:45

like child protective services being called, right?

13:47

Like it was, it was dark. Right.

13:49

More than just it was more than

13:51

brothers fighting. And so that had a

13:53

deep impact on me. as

13:56

he did on him. But I was like, oh,

13:58

he beat me up. And that was the story for

14:00

a long time. And then really in reflection, looking

14:02

back on it, I was like, well, yes,

14:04

and I learned that if he

14:06

beat me up, I got a

14:08

lot of attention. So then I

14:10

started feeding into my own cycle

14:12

of violence or abuse if you

14:15

want to call it that. And

14:17

again, there's no, I

14:19

don't blame my brother in any way, shape

14:21

or form. It was just the dynamic that

14:23

was there. And so my grades went

14:26

from straight A's to

14:28

dropping out basically. I

14:30

got put on medication. I

14:32

got hospitalized. How

14:34

old were you at this time? I was like 13

14:36

when I got hospitalized the first time. What was the diagnosis?

14:39

Well, it became bipolar too. Okay.

14:42

I got put in this long -term

14:44

inpatient, outpatient care facility. I was there

14:46

for eight months. I

14:48

ran away three times. That's where I

14:51

got put on my bipolar medication, which

14:53

sort of Sedated

14:55

me. Mm -hmm impacted your personality. I

14:57

mean I was just dull, you

14:59

know glassy -eyed and sort of sleeping all

15:01

day and When we had school time

15:03

at this facility, I'd like go under the

15:06

table and just they'd be like do

15:08

your schoolwork and I was kind of like

15:10

No, you know, and there's nothing There's

15:12

nothing they can do they can keep extracting

15:14

privileges, but Ultimately when you learn that

15:16

the rules are arbitrary mm -hmm and have

15:18

no teeth and have no teeth right like

15:20

you just do whatever you want that

15:22

was part so I ran

15:25

away three times every time I

15:27

come back the second time

15:29

was I was out for quite

15:31

a while before they found

15:33

me and there was a really

15:36

dark experience that happened where

15:38

I ended up staying at this

15:40

this guy's house squatting I

15:42

was 15 at the time and

15:44

he was 19 and he

15:46

was gay and you know some

15:49

people would qualify what happened

15:51

as rape. Mothers would just say sexual

15:53

abuse. And I write about it in more of a

15:55

like, it was complicated. It

15:57

was complicated because there was

15:59

my own curiosity. And

16:01

yet there was this profound power

16:04

dynamic where I was staying in

16:06

a stranger's home. And

16:08

so it was as

16:10

if I was trying to

16:13

find something there. It

16:15

was also sort of a

16:17

some sense of Artificial

16:19

safety right for sure left you're in a

16:21

home. You're lonely. You're with a person. I

16:23

mean, yeah You're projecting a lot of need

16:25

on somebody exactly and we know like yes

16:27

We think of a 19 year old as

16:29

an adult and a 15 year old as

16:31

a child, but really we're both children and

16:33

So I think it was a search for

16:35

belonging on my part too because I really

16:37

didn't feel like I belonged anywhere. They didn't

16:40

want me at home. So That

16:43

almost definitely had a profound psychological

16:45

impact on me, especially as it relates

16:47

to sex and sexuality, which I'm

16:49

sure we'll get to later. I

16:51

can pour you another drink. Yeah. When

16:54

do I start crying? And

16:56

then the third time I ran away, my dad,

16:58

who was very big on agency, was like, all

17:01

right, but you can't

17:03

be at home. And

17:05

so. This is when you're

17:07

15. I was 15. Did your parents just

17:09

not know what to do? They tried everything.

17:11

Yeah. They tried everything. And then that's why there's

17:13

no blame. I mean, like, what do you

17:15

do at some point? There is

17:17

a threshold that gets crossed. And

17:20

this is outside the borders of,

17:22

you know, normal child rearing. Right. Right.

17:24

And so I ran away and

17:26

then I ended up being on the

17:28

street, mostly kept off the street.

17:30

But, you know, I'd stay with friends,

17:32

right? But I do say I

17:34

was homeless because I didn't have a home. And

17:37

there were times where I was squatting and

17:39

more in the park or whatever. And

17:41

then finally I got taken in

17:43

by some family friends in Idaho and

17:45

I stayed there for eight months.

17:47

I got my GED when I was

17:50

16. I was like, I

17:52

was like, was this all I was

17:54

supposed to learn in high school? You know,

17:56

it's just like, this is really ridiculous

17:58

how, how surface that

18:00

tested. But anyway, I'm

18:02

happy we have that system to provide people

18:04

with a good enough diploma, which is what

18:07

GED stands for. Um, so.

18:11

And then I ended up in the

18:13

hospital again. I came home. My

18:15

brother got and I got in a

18:17

huge blowout. I mean, it took

18:19

three minutes and We were on the

18:21

front lawn and and I you

18:23

know I remember I That that sense

18:25

of my mind being out of

18:27

control when when these violent eruptions would

18:29

happen My brain would speed up

18:31

to a place where I just it

18:33

was like there was like energy

18:35

in me that had to move and

18:37

I didn't know what to do

18:39

and I remember I stood up and

18:41

I just kicked out the windows

18:43

in the car that I was driving

18:45

at the time and and I

18:47

drove up to my mom's office and

18:49

I said I Need to go

18:51

back to the hospital Mm -hmm, and

18:53

it was at that time finally where

18:55

my parents were like Corey What

18:57

do you need? And it

19:00

actually gave me a sense of

19:02

agency I ended up living

19:04

with my aunt and uncle in

19:06

Seattle. So now I was

19:08

17 Got three jobs

19:10

because that's what bipolar people

19:12

do It's all or nothing,

19:14

right? And then that's where it's

19:16

all and nothing. Yeah, all and nothing.

19:19

Yeah, which is yeah, wow great point,

19:21

but That's where I kind of rediscovered

19:23

climbing. I mean, we have been so

19:25

indoctrinated with it like that's what my

19:27

dad read to us his children's climbing

19:29

books and so I Had always kept

19:31

an identity of being an outdoors person

19:34

and my uncle took half of every

19:36

paycheck It's like rent. And then at

19:38

the end, he was like, look, I'm

19:40

going to give you all this money

19:42

back if you choose an experience to

19:44

spend it on. And I chose to

19:46

go climbing. And right before I went

19:49

on that trip, I asked my mom

19:51

if I could borrow her old camera.

19:53

So that was that. And that was

19:55

sort of the entree. And that is

19:57

not resolution by any means, but that's

19:59

the very abridged version. And so where'd

20:02

you go climbing? Where did you go

20:04

for your adventure? It's really interesting because

20:06

through all that time, My

20:08

parents were still very supportive. It

20:10

wasn't as if they checked out. Yeah, yeah. They

20:12

just, it was like the

20:15

guiding arm from a distance. So

20:17

actually, I think their system ended

20:19

up really working. Because you didn't

20:21

feel alone. I felt alone. I

20:23

felt very isolated. But I didn't

20:25

feel outside of, totally outside of

20:27

the bounds of safety. Right. It

20:30

still brought up questions of belonging. Sure. And

20:32

it still brought up questions of value and do

20:34

I matter. But it

20:36

wasn't like... was a container

20:38

for me and so what did that

20:40

climb do for you? Well, we I

20:42

so that all that to say I

20:44

called a whole bunch of my dad's

20:46

old climbing partners Like old guys they're

20:48

like in their 60s at that point

20:50

and I'm then I was like do

20:52

you guys want to go? Climbing and

20:54

go to this place called the Ruth

20:56

Gorge in the Alaska range and they're

20:59

like yeah, so we just did very

21:01

very easy stuff But it just changed

21:03

it was as if photography was a

21:05

way to tether myself to

21:07

this world that I felt like I

21:09

could see but never touch. And

21:11

climbing was in some ways

21:14

an expression of what was happening

21:16

inside of me. And

21:18

so marrying those two, being

21:20

an artistic kid, always gravitating towards art,

21:22

that was the only place that my

21:24

brain shut the fuck up. It was

21:27

like a perfect match. And

21:29

it also gave me some level

21:31

of motivation to keep a job, take

21:34

care of myself. So what

21:36

was your job? Did you become a photographer? Eventually,

21:38

yeah. I mean, I started calling myself a

21:40

photographer at 18, but like, I don't think I

21:42

made money until I was like 24, you

21:45

know? So, I mean,

21:47

did you always know you were gonna write?

21:49

No, I was never a writer. Yeah. I

21:51

was never a writer. I knew I could

21:53

write because I did well on essays in

21:55

college, but I'd never written anything long form.

21:57

Yeah. I think the longest thing I ever

21:59

wrote was probably like, I mean... purposely didn't

22:01

want to do a thesis because I didn't

22:03

want to write a hundred pages. Right. It

22:05

just sounded like too much work. So what

22:07

was the first long form? The

22:09

book that I wrote. Start with Y. Start with

22:11

Y. Because I had to. Yeah. Because

22:13

I had a contract that said I had to. Isn't

22:17

it scary? Nobody knew that I

22:19

could. I didn't know that I

22:21

could. That's actually interesting. A lot

22:23

of the men's work I do

22:25

is actually this guy, Kenny Cain,

22:27

who lives here. Started our men's

22:29

group based on a lot of

22:31

the start with why principles and

22:33

just cause right where it's like

22:35

yeah, so it actually works It's

22:37

really interesting that that I'm here

22:39

with you because that's it's it's

22:41

so much of like the idea

22:43

that like The just cause part

22:45

of it would be there's an

22:47

assumption that the internal emotional lives

22:49

of men is Incredibly challenging And

22:52

the space for that

22:54

expression is incredibly limited, right?

22:57

And the why would be

22:59

to basically create a safe

23:01

space where men can be

23:03

seen and heard. in

23:06

a context that is both

23:08

gentle and hard, where it

23:10

creates accountability. So you can

23:12

see it's all, it's all modeled after that in

23:14

some ways. It's really cool. That's neat. Yeah, yeah. I

23:16

love finding out, you know, work

23:18

goes off and it does its own thing. Yeah, for

23:20

sure. You never know where it's going to go. Yeah.

23:22

lovely to hear. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's

23:24

amazing. So at what point did you, I'm very curious

23:26

when you decided you were going to be quote unquote

23:28

a climber. Yeah. Like, A, is that

23:30

a career? It's

23:33

like, I'm a professional climber. Does that mean

23:35

sponsors and things? Yeah. Yeah. So as I

23:37

started climbing more and more and certainly taking

23:39

pictures more and more, then you could

23:42

go to bigger and bigger places, bigger

23:44

mountain ranges and the climbs get

23:46

harder, they get more severe. And

23:48

by virtue of that, obviously you get

23:50

better and then you get sponsorship dollars.

23:53

And so... And how do they... What

23:55

is... I'm just... No, no, no. And

23:58

I'll tell you why. I have a

24:00

strange point of view about climbing in a

24:02

moment, but which is... Like how do what

24:04

is the value to them of giving you

24:06

sponsorship dollars? Like they need to get some

24:08

value from that as companies is like photographs

24:11

of you standing on peaks in their

24:13

gear kind of thing. Basically, I mean, it's

24:15

marketing value, right? You're basically a glorified raincoat

24:17

salesman at that point. Yeah.

24:19

And so you wear their stuff, you take a

24:21

picture of yourself, you give them the pictures. That's

24:23

what they want. So they want you to be

24:25

a successful climber. They want you to be a

24:27

successful climber and they also want you to do

24:29

the harder and bigger and more extreme. And

24:32

by virtue of that, the more dangerous. Right.

24:34

The colder, more rugged, because obviously

24:36

it gets to the clothes. Right. Exactly. So

24:39

you, you naturally push that envelope

24:41

further and further and further. And then,

24:43

you know. They

24:45

get more sort of like cool cred. Right.

24:47

Like, look what our athletes did. Right.

24:49

You know, whose athletes there. Big logos. Yeah,

24:51

yeah. We called it LPSI. Logos per

24:53

square inch. You wanted to maximize your LPSI.

24:55

You know. I've got a bank logo

24:58

here, a camera logo here. a race car

25:00

driver. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. In a space

25:02

suit. In a downed space suit. Yeah. Really.

25:05

So you're now a legit

25:07

professional climber. Yeah. So what

25:09

did you get out of it other than money? I

25:13

mean, money, money fuels the sport, right? Cause

25:15

it's an expensive sport. It

25:17

requires time and tickets and

25:19

gear and, you know, infrastructure, infrastructure

25:21

and planning and all of this

25:23

stuff where if you had a day

25:25

job, you, you, you could only

25:28

do less technical, less difficult things in

25:30

general, hobbyist, professional. Yeah. Um,

25:32

so, so, but I understand that as a,

25:34

as a job, but did you, what did you

25:36

get out of it? Like, what was the

25:38

reason you wanted to go climb the mountain? Hmm,

25:41

is it like Edmund Hillary's because

25:43

it was there and no, I've

25:45

always hated that answer I think

25:47

it's so lazy, but I like

25:49

look I love Ed Hillary right

25:52

like climbed Everest It and tens

25:54

of norga and tensing. Well, I

25:56

think it tensing technically probably did

25:58

it first. You know, probably did

26:00

a few times. Yeah, yeah What

26:02

I got out of climbing was

26:04

a sense of purpose a sense

26:06

of fulfillment and a

26:08

sense of expression. I

26:11

also got a deep

26:13

sense of validation where the

26:16

more notoriety I got, the

26:18

more I could mistake external

26:20

validation for love. Because it felt

26:22

good. It feels good. Just

26:24

like getting attention when you were

26:27

a kid. Of course. And

26:29

the other thing that's so interesting

26:31

about it is that so

26:33

often people with chaotic childhoods, violent

26:35

childhoods, traumatic childhoods gravitate towards

26:37

very high -risk endeavors because their

26:39

minds are uniquely adapted to it.

26:41

We don't have any future

26:43

forecasting. So it's like, hold my

26:45

beer, I'm going to try

26:47

some, you know, and, hey man,

26:49

watch this. Terrible

26:51

for life. Fantastic for extreme sports. Exactly.

26:54

And so you can see there is some

26:56

maladaptation there for sure. It very like

26:58

it works. It works. It works. No future

27:00

forecasting, which means it limits the fear

27:02

because you limit the you limit the ability

27:04

to even conceive of what could go

27:06

wrong. Well, yeah, because if you raise like,

27:08

I don't know what's coming next. Well,

27:10

OK, so I don't I don't know what's

27:12

coming next. This is also the this

27:14

is where I have. So I went on

27:16

a trek with a bunch of people

27:18

in the Atlas Mountains in Morocco. OK, yeah.

27:21

One of my boots got some water in it as we got

27:23

higher, it got a little colder. And I was like, you

27:25

know, I could see the, it wasn't that high, it was

27:27

right over there. And I was like, I'm gonna, I'm just gonna

27:29

wait here for you guys, you know? They're like,

27:31

don't you want to make it to the top? I'm like, I'm

27:33

good. They're like, but don't you

27:35

want the picture? Don't you want the view? I'm

27:37

like, I'm pretty sure it's the same view. And

27:40

it's just a little bit higher. I'm

27:42

gonna sit here, I'm good. And

27:45

while I was sitting waiting for them

27:47

to come back down, sort

27:49

of thought about, It's such a

27:51

strange thing that the reason they wanted

27:53

to go to the peak was

27:55

to tell other people that they made

27:57

it to the peak. Yeah. Or

27:59

they wanted the photograph to show that

28:01

they made it to the peak.

28:03

Right. And it's a very selfish pursuit

28:05

because no one derives any value

28:07

whatsoever other than you getting to say,

28:09

I did or show somebody else.

28:11

Did right and maybe this is my

28:13

asshole -ish point of view and we're

28:15

an asshole, but I don't think

28:17

that's an asshole I mean one must

28:19

make the distinction and I like

28:21

you Olympic athletes into not team sports,

28:23

but individual sports. You know when

28:25

you talk to Olympic athletes the metal

28:27

contenders, right? And you ask them

28:29

why did you do it? Yeah, they're

28:31

like well I want to inspire

28:33

the children It's like not a single

28:35

vision board has pictures of inspired

28:37

children, you know All the vision boards

28:39

are them standing on podiums with

28:41

gold medals around their neck. Right. And

28:44

it's one of the reasons I

28:46

think that when their careers come to

28:48

an end, you know, like Michael

28:50

Phelps becomes the most metal Olympian in

28:52

history, immediately depression. Andre Agassi comes

28:54

the most celebrated tennis player in history,

28:56

immediately depression. Yeah. Because they confuse

28:58

purpose with a goal. The

29:00

thrill is the dopamine hit. and

29:02

it's an extreme dopamine hit because

29:04

it's difficult to climb a difficult mountain

29:06

that if you aptly make it

29:09

to the peak, that surge of dopamine

29:11

is, I'm sure, overwhelmingly wonderful, magical,

29:13

intoxicating, beautiful, but it goes

29:15

away, which is why you have to

29:17

climb another mountain, right? And it's not like

29:19

love that sustains. And this is why

29:21

I have sort of a cynical view of

29:23

these things and find them relatively selfish.

29:25

because no one derives any benefit from that

29:27

dopamine other than you. And if you

29:29

are inspiring children, it was

29:31

a lucky strike extra. I could

29:33

not agree more with you. I've

29:35

always said climbing is inherently selfish.

29:37

I don't think that that means

29:39

its sidecar impacts aren't positive for

29:41

people. Absolutely. But they're not

29:43

the intention. They're not the intention. It's

29:46

not a service -oriented. Not at all.

29:48

You're not in service. And it's so

29:50

funny. It always bugged me that sort

29:52

of the Everest expeditions that will go

29:54

and be like, I'm climbing Everest to

29:56

raise money for cancer. I think that's

29:58

great. But that's not why you're climbing

30:00

Everest. You want to climb Everest. And

30:02

it's a way in some ways to make

30:04

yourself feel better about the selfishness that you know

30:07

is. is there. Or if I'm going to

30:09

do this, might as well raise some money charity.

30:11

For sure. Again, either one works. It's a

30:13

yes and. It's always a yes

30:15

and. So again, I think there's

30:17

this really beautiful component that it

30:19

does have this extended impact. And

30:21

at the same time, I'll just

30:23

speak for myself. It was never.

30:26

And even my career with National

30:28

Geographic, it was never about policy

30:30

change. It was never about necessarily

30:32

telling other people's stories. And it's

30:34

kind of embarrassing to say that.

30:37

It was always about me because

30:39

I felt like look, look at

30:41

what I can do and validate

30:43

me. I'm very proud of the

30:45

policy change that came out of some of

30:48

those stories. I'm very proud of the conservation

30:50

that came out of some of those stories,

30:52

but that's not what it was. And

30:54

so I 100 % agree with

30:56

you. And later in this

30:58

sort of trajectory of life, I

31:01

had the same realization that

31:03

you did. I often

31:05

say that my rock bottom was this.

31:07

summit of Everest because I realized

31:09

there's literally no place else I can

31:11

go. There's nowhere higher. There's nowhere

31:13

higher. There's nowhere else I can

31:15

go to get away from myself. Did

31:17

you climb with or without oxygen? The first

31:19

time without. Second time I put it

31:21

on right below the summit. Why would you

31:24

go to, what is it, 27 ,000 feet? 2935.

31:27

That's like a cruising altitude for an aircraft.

31:29

Yeah. Why the hell would you do?

31:31

Like, I don't want them to turn off

31:33

the oxygen in flight. No. Why? What

31:36

motivates you to? There's

31:38

all the poetic reasons which are,

31:40

you know, seeing how far you can

31:42

go. Man versus self. Yeah, man

31:44

versus self, climb the mountain without to

31:47

climb the mountain within. You

31:50

know, there's all of that, which, by

31:52

the way, doesn't work. Then

31:54

there's the reality that, like, you

31:57

know that in doing it that way. There's

32:00

way more cred. There's way

32:02

more visibility. I climbed Everest. Amazing.

32:04

I climbed it without oxygen.

32:06

Wow. Right? Like, and

32:09

I think it is a triumph of human physiology.

32:12

And on the other side of

32:14

that, there's the reality that you're

32:16

just doing it to see how

32:18

hard you can go. Again,

32:21

nothing wrong with that, but just call

32:23

it what it is. So let's now be

32:25

less cynical, right? Yeah, yeah. So did

32:27

it help you? Yes,

32:29

and right because you struggling with things.

32:31

Yeah, and then you did something that

32:33

is objectively very difficult Mm -hmm that

32:35

objectively I mean there's dead bodies still

32:38

all over all over the place and

32:40

they can't go get them. Yeah What

32:42

does that do for you? Do you

32:44

come down saying I'm a better person?

32:46

I'm a stronger person. I I think

32:48

I have the skills. I'll give a

32:50

silly analogy, right? Yeah, so a friend

32:52

of mine was a runner. I wasn't

32:54

a runner but I started running because

32:56

it was fun to run with my

32:59

friend. You start running longer and longer

33:01

distances and eventually I ran my first

33:03

marathon. I would not have been able

33:05

to write a book if I hadn't

33:07

run a marathon. Because

33:09

I am one of those people who likes

33:11

to be an instant expert and you can't

33:13

just run a marathon tomorrow. You have no

33:16

choice, you have to train. experience

33:21

gave me the mental foundation to write a

33:23

book because I couldn't just sit down and write

33:25

a book. It would take months and you

33:27

work your way up to it like a marathon

33:29

and I'm grateful to the marathon for giving

33:31

me the strength to write a book. And I'm

33:33

curious of climbing Everest without oxygen the first

33:35

time gave you the strength to dot dot dot.

33:41

It's such a good question because I never thought

33:43

of it in those terms. Right, like that

33:45

would, for me to go back and paint it

33:47

that way would be sort of a revisionist

33:49

history. It doesn't mean it's not true. But you

33:51

do know I was only aware of that

33:53

after I wrote in the writing of the book.

33:55

Right, right. So you may have only learned

33:57

the lesson years later. Yeah. Like I wouldn't be

33:59

doing this now. Yeah. If I hadn't done

34:01

that. Yeah, for sure. And I mean, that's how

34:03

I felt. Even just by the way. conquering

34:06

life Boy, this is difficult,

34:08

but I did that so

34:10

this is easy so I

34:12

can do it, you know

34:14

like Life is savage dude

34:16

life is life is so metal.

34:18

You know, I think yes,

34:20

there was some of that

34:22

where Doing these things allowed

34:24

me a certain degree of endurance

34:27

to withstand other things Primarily,

34:29

I would say some of

34:31

the mental health challenges so

34:33

physical pain Your body destroying

34:35

itself eating itself because that's I

34:37

think people forget that that yeah,

34:39

your body can adapt to altitude

34:41

But it's still eating itself. It's

34:44

dying. Yeah, it's actively dying. So

34:46

you're on a you're on the

34:48

clock You're you're literally racing time

34:50

pushing through that that level of

34:52

fear or apprehension to then accomplish

34:54

that goal of course gives you

34:57

some Some new level of what

34:59

you're capable of yeah, and it

35:01

expands your degree

35:04

of tolerance for

35:06

discomfort in a

35:08

way, at least physical.

35:10

physical discomfort, which can be transmuted

35:12

into emotional, mental, whatever. For better and

35:14

for worse. For better and for

35:16

worse. You can stay in a bad

35:18

relationship for too long because you

35:20

can because you have the skills or

35:22

you can muscle through difficult situations

35:24

to find resolution in a relationship because

35:26

you have the skills of not

35:28

abandoning. Self abandonment, right? Like,

35:30

wow, let's get into that.

35:32

But I think also it was

35:34

such an expression of trying

35:36

to outrun myself at the same

35:39

time. Because look, I'm utilizing

35:41

all the skill sets that I

35:43

learned in my childhood development,

35:45

which is hyper vigilance, managing chaos.

35:47

It's a healthy expression of

35:49

that. And at the same time,

35:51

it is a complete avoidance

35:53

of what's driving it. It's such

35:55

an interesting paradox, right? Which

35:57

is the thing that is a

35:59

healthy expression of whatever pain

36:01

trauma is also the thing that

36:03

can kill you is also

36:05

amplifying the pain trauma. Yeah,

36:07

I find that Beautiful and

36:09

horrible at the same time which makes perfect sense.

36:11

Yeah The thing you're trying to get away from

36:13

is the very thing that's allowing you to do

36:15

the thing that's also giving you the sense of

36:17

I want to keep doing this I want to

36:20

keep I want to keep living even at its

36:22

most basic form, right? Our wounds become our weapons

36:24

in both positive and negative ways. You see that

36:26

all the time in relationships. The way somebody is

36:28

wounded is generally how they end up showing up

36:30

for their partner. So if there's

36:32

an extreme sense of abandonment in somebody's

36:34

life and that's their primary trauma, it's

36:36

not uncommon for that person to abandon

36:39

the other person or choke it out

36:41

by, you know, sort of anxious attachment.

36:43

So I'm going to ask this question

36:45

multiple times. Please. Are you a better

36:47

version of yourself because of climbing Mount

36:49

Everest for the first time without oxygen? No,

36:53

I'm a more knowledgeable person.

36:55

It doesn't make me better.

36:58

Tell me the difference. I

37:02

think that a better

37:04

person would be somebody who

37:06

is capable of embodying

37:08

and assimilating to the lessons

37:11

that they learned on

37:13

that journey, right? A

37:15

more knowledgeable person takes the lessons,

37:17

contextualizes them, lives upstairs in their

37:19

head and just keeps doing the

37:21

same shit. So ultimately yes,

37:23

right? Because now I can reflect on it.

37:25

But, but at the time, no, not at all.

37:27

But I'll go with yes. Yeah, yeah. Because

37:29

of, yeah. Because of now. Because of now. Fair

37:32

enough. All right. Shit, you got me. You

37:34

got me back. I have to acknowledge myself. Shit,

37:36

I don't like that. It's uncomfortable. I need

37:38

to leave. Do you have more whiskey? No. I

37:41

mean, it's, it's interesting though, like when you, I

37:44

guess I could ask the

37:46

same question. Two

37:48

questions. Did

37:51

you write the book for other people? Or did you

37:53

start writing it for yourself just because it had to

37:55

come out? The the answer is

37:57

yes. Yeah, I had this idea I

37:59

was sharing it with friends friends asked

38:01

me to share it with their friends

38:03

People would then invite me to share

38:05

it with audiences right and somebody said

38:07

you really need to write this down

38:09

and so I realized that Because I

38:11

had something that was so powerful for

38:13

me and had a positive and powerful

38:15

impact in my life and was having

38:17

a positive and powerful impact in my

38:19

friends lives It was having a positive

38:21

and powerful impact on other people's lives.

38:23

It became a responsibility. Okay, so whether

38:25

I wanted to write the book or

38:27

not This I learned this lesson more

38:30

powerfully with the second book believe it

38:32

right because that one I I quit

38:34

in the middle. I couldn't do it.

38:36

Huh why so so Leaders

38:38

eat last was the most difficult thing I've

38:40

ever done in my life. It took years of

38:42

my life and cost me two relationships. You

38:44

know, I was not fun. I wasn't happy. It

38:46

was stressful. I was like a beautiful mind.

38:48

I would write with dry race in my bathroom

38:50

and all the tiles. So like if

38:52

I had an idea in the shower, I'd quickly jump out and

38:54

write it on the tile or brush my teeth and I'd stand

38:56

there and read all and literally you'd walk into my bathroom and

38:58

the tiles were filled with like these crazy ideas. And

39:01

I couldn't understand why all

39:03

the social scientists, because all

39:05

I did was take the

39:07

biology of of the chemicals

39:09

dopamine endorphins, serotonin, octitocin, cortisol,

39:12

and overlay them on corporate culture and said, let's see what

39:14

happens. And I was calling scientists

39:16

to understand octitocin, dopamine, like asking them, and

39:18

I couldn't understand why none of them

39:20

had written, not written this book. It seemed

39:22

so obvious. They're the experts because it

39:25

was organizationally a nightmare because every chapter could

39:27

have been a book. And

39:29

start with why it was about I don't know,

39:31

something like 68 ,000 words. And when I was

39:33

writing leaders at last, I was just getting started

39:35

and I wrote 150 ,000 words. It just kept going

39:37

and going. And it was organizationally a nightmare. And

39:40

I was sitting at my desk, it

39:42

was probably at least a year, maybe

39:44

over a year in, probably

39:46

less at least one relationship by now. And

39:50

I couldn't do it. I

39:52

gave up. And so I

39:54

got up from my desk.

39:57

It was about eight o 'clock at night and I went

39:59

for a walk. I was in New York City and just

40:02

went for a walk and I went to plan my

40:04

quitting. I literally would go through

40:06

the checklist of quitting and I would have

40:08

to tell my publisher I'm unable to do

40:10

this. I'll have to give them back the

40:12

advance because technically I'm in breach of contract,

40:14

right? So I'm going through that checklist and

40:16

like, okay, I'm going to lose money. I'm

40:19

gonna be humiliated because I already had some notoriety

40:21

from the first book and everybody was looking forward

40:23

to the second book and I have to publicly

40:25

announce after telling everybody I'm writing another book that

40:27

I'm not gonna write enough so I'm gonna be

40:29

publicly humiliated. I have to tell my friend. Like

40:31

just going through the checklist and preparing myself for

40:33

the burden of quitting. And

40:35

for whatever reason, I picked up the phone and

40:38

called a friend of mine who happened to be

40:40

in the Air Force Special Forces at the time,

40:42

call sign Johnny Quest. Johnny

40:45

Quest. He's

40:47

a good guy. He looks like Johnny Quest. He's

40:50

a pilot for United now. And

40:52

I don't even think I

40:54

said hello. He picked up the

40:56

phone and I said, what do you do when

40:59

you can't complete the mission? I just asked him. And

41:01

as is his nature, he started telling me a

41:03

story. And he told me a story of

41:05

how he was in Afghanistan. He was a helicopter pilot at

41:07

the time. And they had

41:09

a mission that all the intelligence

41:11

said it was a suicide mission.

41:14

Ground to air defenses were so extreme that and

41:16

it wasn't like a kill Hitler mission. Like

41:18

you're going to kill Hitler. We're all going to

41:20

die, but you're going to kill Hitler. It's

41:23

not one of those. It's like you're all going

41:25

to die and we won't accomplish the mission.

41:27

It was a just pointless suicide mission. Right. Right.

41:29

And it was obvious to everybody who was

41:31

a part of it, but they were ordered to

41:33

go do this mission and they were prepping

41:35

their helicopter and his wingman says to him, what

41:37

do we do? Like we've

41:40

got wives, we've got kids. Do

41:42

we refuse to go? Like what

41:44

do we? What do we do? And

41:46

my friend turned to me and said, um, this

41:48

is what we signed up for. We go. Clearly

41:52

the mission was scrubbed at the

41:54

last minute, you know. And

41:56

so he said to me, he told me this

41:58

story and then he says to me, is

42:00

this book more or less powerful than Start With

42:02

Why? I said, the

42:04

lessons that I'm learning in the researcher are impacting me

42:06

as much if not more than Start With Why. He

42:08

says, okay, I'm going to tell you a funny story. He

42:11

says, Before I met you, I was disillusioned with the

42:13

Air Force and I wanted to quit. I found this

42:15

kooky little book called Start With Why, and it reinspired

42:17

me to take myself on as a leader. And I

42:19

am who I am today in part because of your

42:21

book. And if you're telling me that you're learning things

42:23

that are more powerful, and he said,

42:25

this is what you signed up for, you have

42:27

no choice. Now, the underlying message

42:30

was, and I will be here with you. And

42:32

that's the most important part. It wasn't like,

42:34

do you have to do, it wasn't like this

42:36

stupid grit. There's also knowing

42:38

when to quit, right? It

42:40

wasn't a grit message. It was a,

42:42

you are not alone message. This

42:45

is what we do. This is what

42:47

we signed up for. He told his wingman,

42:49

not what you signed up for. And

42:51

this is what my friend was telling me,

42:53

which is go and I will be

42:55

with you. And I went back and finished

42:57

the book. Do you think just, I've

42:59

been playing with this idea recently about the

43:01

difference between, because I'm

43:03

writing a children's book now. Which

43:05

is harder than people think. Much, much harder. What's

43:08

the difference between giving up and letting

43:10

go and do you think that you actually

43:13

let go which allowed you to continue?

43:15

So I Because I you know There's schools

43:17

of thought that says you never quit

43:19

and the schools of thought that says you

43:21

have to know when to quit right

43:23

right right and who's right right and so

43:25

and Your dichotomy of letting go versus

43:27

quitting. I think is a good one in

43:29

my mind. It's a very simple test

43:32

is The sacrifice worth it and if the

43:34

answer is yes, you keep going if

43:36

the answer is no you stop And

43:38

so I'm doing some I've done many things

43:40

that I hate that play to all of

43:42

my weaknesses right that cause me stress and

43:44

sleepless nights and broken relationships and all of

43:46

those things but if I'm really honest with

43:48

myself and I and I look at what

43:50

I'm trying to accomplish and what I'm trying

43:52

to do in the world and if I

43:54

ask myself is the sacrifice worth it and

43:56

the answer is yes, you just keep going

43:58

But it but there are also things that

44:00

I've done that become excruciating and the sacrifice

44:02

no longer feels worth it And I'm happy

44:04

I'm happy to walk away. Yeah. And so

44:06

to me it's is the sacrifice worth it

44:08

That's an interesting does it and it's a

44:10

very it's a very simple test doesn't feel

44:12

right You know, but a lot of times

44:14

and it helps you get away with like

44:16

people are expecting it and there's like all

44:18

of that is noise Right is the sacrifice

44:20

worth what you're trying to accomplish Whether

44:22

it's selfish or selfless is up to you. Right. Right.

44:25

I'm trying to become a millionaire. The sacrifice is worth

44:27

it. Whatever your standard is about care. Right. Right. But

44:29

that to me is the reason to keep going or not

44:31

keep going, which is why I like letting go. Yeah. Versus quitting.

44:34

Well, because I think I

44:36

actually honestly think resilience is

44:38

not about holding on. Resilience

44:40

is about letting go. Say more. When

44:44

we hold on, that

44:46

is usually a place of

44:48

survival. Right? Oh, like gritting

44:50

your teeth gritting your teeth. We're in survival mode.

44:52

I got to hold on. I got to hold on.

44:55

And survival is interesting because it's reaction

44:57

based and reaction is not value

44:59

based. Right. When people are in survival

45:01

mode, values are out the window.

45:03

Look what people do. Right. Resilience to

45:06

the flies. Right. Exactly. So resilience

45:08

is about letting go in that.

45:10

You have to step into discomfort. You

45:12

have to step into discovery through

45:14

discomfort. You have to let go

45:16

of your certainty because certainty kills

45:19

curiosity, right? And you have to

45:21

be willing to adapt to something

45:23

that is foreign. And

45:25

so it's all about

45:27

letting go. a tool of

45:29

resilience. It underwrites it,

45:31

right? And because resilience is

45:33

response -based versus reaction -based,

45:35

it's endurance -based, it's curiosity -based,

45:38

it's underwritten by values. So it

45:40

guides you to a net positive

45:42

evolution as a response to challenging

45:44

circumstances. That's very interesting. And it

45:46

also now puts a very high

45:48

burden. on all of us, that

45:50

you have to know your values.

45:52

Right. Without values, your capacity for

45:54

resilience goes down. It goes, well,

45:56

I mean, think about our culture

45:58

in terms of mental health, which

46:01

I really do believe is a

46:03

crisis, right? Yeah. Part of that

46:05

is because we are living in

46:07

our sympathetic nervous systems, which is

46:09

fight, flight or freeze, which is

46:11

survival based. So our whole culture

46:13

is not acting out of a

46:15

resilience mindset or response mindset. a

46:18

reaction mindset. It's a reaction mindset.

46:20

So we have no values. So

46:23

we cannibalize each other in the

46:25

pursuit of survival because that's our

46:27

most base instinct. And

46:29

in doing so, our act for

46:31

survival and the lack of values

46:33

drives us deeper into conflict, which

46:35

keeps us further from survival. Coming

46:38

up on part two. Sometimes I

46:40

sit in my car and I scream

46:42

as loud as I fucking can

46:44

and just cry because it. It

46:48

just hurts so fuck

46:50

much. So

46:54

I'm in the place of just

46:56

profound discomfort and every day as

46:58

I start to make up new

47:00

stories about my lack of value

47:02

or why she left or what

47:04

the other guy has or whatever

47:06

it is or you know what

47:08

my ex is doing now or

47:10

anytime I start to come up

47:12

with a story it's like There's

47:14

an elbow block of something so

47:16

deep in me that says, uh

47:18

-uh, you're trying to create certainty,

47:20

which is a grasp for comfort,

47:22

which you know is not what

47:24

you need because it will erase

47:27

your agency. If

47:33

you enjoyed this podcast and would like

47:35

to hear more, please subscribe wherever you

47:37

like to listen to podcasts. And

47:40

if you'd like even more optimism, check

47:42

out my website, simonsynic.com,

47:44

for classes, videos, and more.

47:47

Until then, take care of yourself, take

47:50

care of each other. A

47:52

bit of optimism is a production of

47:54

The Optimism Company. It's produced and

47:56

edited by Lindsay Garbenius, David

47:58

Jha, and Devin Johnson. Our

48:01

executive producers are Henrietta Conrad

48:03

and Greg Rudershan.