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Morgan Chase Bank, Bank, Bank, Bank,

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Bank, Bank, Bank, Bank, Bank, Bank,

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Bank, Bank. Hey,

0:48

slight changers, Maya here. My new

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0:52

is out now. It's called Change

0:54

with Maya Shunker. It's totally free,

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and you can sign up at

0:58

Change with maya.com, or check out

1:01

the link in our show notes.

1:03

The reason I started this newsletter

1:05

is that I'm so excited about

1:07

building a community with all of

1:09

you around how we can navigate

1:11

change with more wisdom and with

1:14

more hope. I'll be sharing personal

1:16

updates, links to what I'm reading

1:18

or watching lately, exciting

1:20

new science about change,

1:22

and my top takeaways

1:24

from my conversations on

1:26

this show, with some

1:28

behind-the-scenes action. I hope

1:31

you'll sign up and

1:33

spread the word with your I

1:35

remember asking my

1:37

dad at one

1:39

point, what does

1:41

my name, Sinita,

1:43

mean? And he said,

1:46

in the Sanskrit, Sinita

1:48

means good. And that's

1:51

the kind of messages

1:53

I received, you know,

1:56

to be good, you

1:58

know, to be good,

2:01

to be good, And I

2:03

think many of us have

2:05

had that kind of upbringing

2:07

or messages that they're expected

2:10

to comply. Sunitha Sa

2:12

is a doctor turned organizational

2:14

psychologist and a professor at

2:16

Cornell University. She studies why

2:18

it can be so hard

2:20

to say no. Sunita says

2:22

that if you consider yourself

2:24

a pretty compliant person, maybe

2:27

you even think of yourself

2:29

as a people pleaser. It's

2:31

something you can change. Defiance

2:33

isn't a personality, it's

2:35

a skill set. If we have

2:38

a self-concept of being compliant, it

2:40

doesn't mean that we can't be

2:42

defiant, we just have to learn

2:45

it. So even if compliance is

2:47

our default, it doesn't have

2:49

to be our destiny. How

2:51

to Say No. I'm

2:54

Maya Shunker,

2:56

a scientist

2:58

who studies

3:00

human behavior,

3:02

and this

3:04

is a slight

3:07

change of plans,

3:09

a show about

3:11

who we are

3:13

and who we

3:15

become in the face of

3:17

a big change. Maybe it was

3:19

taking on extra work when your

3:22

plate was already full, or agreeing

3:24

to plans you had no energy

3:26

for, or feeling pressure to say

3:28

yes to someone in a position

3:31

of power. Defiance is super hard,

3:33

especially when our relationships and our

3:35

reputations are on the line. And

3:38

that's why I'm so glad Sunitha

3:40

could join us today to talk

3:42

about how exactly we can build

3:44

this skill. Her new book is called

3:47

Defi, The Power of No in a World

3:49

that demands Yes. I think I've been

3:51

interested in defying somewhat that

3:53

single powerful word defy means for

3:55

a really really long time. So

3:57

as a child I was no...

3:59

for being an obedient daughter and

4:02

a student and I grew up in

4:04

Yorkshire in the north of England. My

4:06

parents are from India. My mom used

4:08

to at that time wear her sari

4:11

every single day and it was quite

4:13

obvious we were different from the people

4:15

around us. People used to stare

4:17

when we went into department stores.

4:20

I felt jostling on the streets.

4:22

I heard the racist remarks or

4:24

aimed away several times. I remember

4:26

when... I was going through that, I

4:28

need to fit in, I need to

4:30

blend in stage, that my dad got

4:32

me these very bright red leg warmers.

4:35

Red was my favorite color. And I

4:37

did not want to wear them at

4:39

all because I thought I would stand

4:41

out too much at school and it

4:43

would bring some attention to me, which

4:45

is not what I wanted. So I

4:47

spent like the entire day trying to

4:49

hide these red leg warmers with my

4:52

coat, which obviously didn't work very well.

4:54

I was always fascinated by people who

4:56

could just be themselves and not

4:58

worry about what other people thought.

5:00

And when I started at high

5:03

school, I met someone who became

5:05

my best friend and we can

5:07

call her Clara. She was different

5:10

as well. She'd come from the

5:12

south of England. She had a

5:14

different accent. She wore stilettos. I

5:16

wore sneakers. We were quite different.

5:19

And yet I was just... attracted

5:21

to her defiance and her knowing

5:24

who she was and the way

5:26

that she acted. And we had

5:28

some really fun times. So there

5:30

was that element of being fascinated

5:32

by people who could just be

5:34

themselves. Yeah, but it seems like

5:37

your desire to obey, to comply,

5:39

it persisted into adulthood. So do

5:41

you mind telling me the story

5:44

of your visit to the emergency

5:46

room? Yes, absolutely. When I moved

5:48

from the UK to the US,

5:50

there was one day I was

5:53

experiencing some really severe central chest

5:55

pain and as a former physician

5:57

I was obviously very worried

5:59

and concerned. So I went

6:02

to the emergency room and

6:04

they immediately put me through

6:06

triage and everything was fine

6:08

luckily and the pain was

6:10

even subsiding. So I was

6:12

really relieved and I thought I

6:14

was going to be discharged and

6:16

I could go home. But then

6:18

the doctor said before we let you

6:20

go, you need to have a CT

6:22

scan. And so I asked why? And

6:25

she said, oh, we want to make

6:27

sure you don't have a blood clot

6:29

in the lungs. And with my medical

6:31

training, I knew I did not have

6:33

the type of pain that she was

6:35

looking for and that I wouldn't have

6:37

a blood clot in the lungs. And

6:39

so I should have said no to

6:42

having a CT scan because it's about

6:44

70 times more on average the amount

6:46

of radiation. than an x-ray. It's still

6:48

small, but ionizing radiation can put you

6:50

at risk of cancer many years later.

6:52

So why take the risk? I wanted

6:54

to say no, I should have said

6:56

no, and yet I found it very

6:58

difficult to tell the doctor I did

7:00

not want to have the CT scan

7:03

that she had recommended. And so I

7:05

ended up going along with it, and

7:07

I regretted it so much, because that

7:09

was a situation that was very safe

7:11

for me to say no, I would

7:13

rather not have that, and I struggled

7:15

with it. And I struggled with it.

7:17

I resonate so much with

7:19

this story because I get very

7:22

very anxious about pushing back and

7:24

It's so interesting you share this

7:26

because like you said it was

7:28

such a safe space for you

7:30

you know and so when I

7:32

zoom out I think well if

7:34

Sunitha this physician has trouble saying

7:37

no to a medical professional on

7:39

empirical grounds I mean like what

7:41

hope is there for the rest

7:43

of us right I mean this

7:45

is clearly a problem so with

7:47

that said let's take a step

7:49

back for a moment how is it

7:51

that you define defiance? What is

7:54

it? When you look at the Oxford

7:56

English Dictionary definition of defiance, they

7:58

say to defy... is to challenge

8:00

the power of another person boldly

8:03

and openly. And I'm not one

8:05

to disagree, as you know, especially

8:07

with the Oxford English Dictionary. I

8:10

know how dare you defy the

8:12

definition. How dare I defy. So

8:14

meta. But that definition I think

8:16

is too narrow and it doesn't

8:19

honor our agency. And so

8:21

my definition of defiance is that

8:23

to defy is to act in

8:25

accordance with your true values. when

8:28

there is pressure to do

8:30

otherwise. And that refrains defiance

8:32

from this negative connotation to

8:35

actually a proactive positive force

8:37

in society. Because if we think

8:39

about when we comply, when we

8:42

defy, all those individual acts, they

8:44

create the society that we live

8:46

in. So it affects what treatment

8:49

we get. It affects our workplaces,

8:51

whether we speak up. and

8:53

say something when somebody does

8:55

something inappropriate. It affects our

8:58

communities, it affects our lives,

9:00

and that's why I'm so

9:02

passionate about defiance. So on

9:04

the surface, this is a very

9:06

compelling definition, but I want

9:09

to get more clarity on

9:11

what is meant by true values

9:13

in practice because... Most of us

9:15

don't walk around with a firm

9:17

grasp, or at least a conscious

9:19

grasp, of what our quote true

9:21

values are. So how is it

9:23

that we go about establishing them

9:25

in this context? So the first

9:27

question that we have to ask when

9:29

we want to defy is who am

9:32

I? What do I stand for? And

9:34

we do that work well before, sort

9:36

of a moment of defiance. And when

9:38

I ask my executive students to think

9:41

about what their values are, I

9:43

ask them to write them down

9:45

and explain where those values came

9:47

from and why they are so

9:49

important. And these students, they come

9:51

up with the similar values year

9:53

after year, like they end up

9:55

being quite universal values that often

9:57

come down to sort of one...

10:00

like integrity, compassion, equality. These

10:02

are the types of values

10:04

I see again and again.

10:06

And the reason I ask

10:08

the students to write them

10:10

down and explain why they

10:12

are so important is because

10:14

the research shows that our

10:16

behavior, our intended behaviors are

10:18

more likely to follow when

10:20

we know exactly what our

10:23

values are. Because one of

10:25

the biggest gaps is between.

10:27

who we think we are and what

10:29

we actually do. So putting those

10:31

values into action. So clarifying our

10:34

values is just really important. And

10:36

actually there's some work that shows

10:38

that we also have a lower

10:40

biological stress reaction if we know

10:42

our values, and we're acting in

10:44

alignment with them. So everybody wants

10:47

lower cortisol, right? So there's a

10:49

good thing to know what your

10:51

values are. So, for example, with

10:53

the CT scan, what are my

10:55

values in that particular situation? Like,

10:57

is my value just listening

11:00

to the doctor and obeying

11:02

the doctor? I don't think

11:04

so, right? If your value,

11:06

your ethical moral stance comes

11:08

from just listening to the

11:10

person in authority, perhaps your boss

11:12

and assessing your actions from how

11:14

well you obey your boss, it

11:16

can lead you really blind to

11:18

the... greater consequences of your action.

11:21

So we need to think in

11:23

every situation, what is it that

11:25

I stand for? And if we

11:27

do feel that something is

11:29

going against our values, think

11:31

about this is the time now for me

11:33

to speak up. This is the time now

11:35

for me to say something. Let's take

11:38

that health care scenario again though

11:40

with the doctor, which is it

11:42

wasn't just about... the value of

11:44

listening to the doctor. I feel like

11:46

there was something much deeper going on,

11:48

which is you're someone that values kindness

11:50

and how you make other people feel

11:52

about themselves, right? Like, I know you

11:55

to be a deeply kind person. Surely

11:57

that was weighing in as well, which

11:59

is you didn't want to. undermine this

12:01

person's authority, make them maybe

12:03

question. Greater consequences of your

12:05

action. So we need to

12:07

think in every situation, what

12:09

is it that I stand

12:12

for? And if we do feel

12:14

that something is going against

12:16

our values, think about this is the

12:18

time now for me to say something.

12:21

Let's take that health care

12:23

scenario again though with the

12:25

doctor, which is it wasn't just

12:27

about... the value of listening to

12:29

the doctor. I feel like there was

12:31

something much deeper going on, which is

12:34

you're someone that values kindness and how

12:36

you make other people feel about themselves,

12:38

right? Like, I know you to be

12:40

a deeply kind person. Surely that was

12:43

weighing in as well, which is you

12:45

didn't want to undermine this person's authority,

12:47

make them maybe question themselves,

12:50

right? And so do I value... my health

12:52

in this moment over

12:54

the psychological comfort of

12:56

the physician who's ordering

12:58

this exam for me. I

13:00

agree with you. And so that what

13:03

I call insinuation anxiety,

13:05

that anxiety of not

13:07

wanting to send a

13:09

signal of distrust to another

13:11

person, can be really powerful and...

13:13

It keeps us silent. It really

13:16

is an aversive emotional state when

13:18

we become so concerned with offending

13:21

the other person. We become mute.

13:23

We have these relationship concerns and what

13:25

my research shows is that we can

13:27

have them even in one-off situations with

13:30

strangers with no power dynamics. So you

13:32

can imagine how hard it is when

13:34

you're in that medical scenario with somebody

13:37

who is supposed to have your best

13:39

interests at heart. And we don't want

13:41

to insinuate that our physicians or even

13:43

our coworkers or friends or family are

13:46

not trustworthy. That's just too hard

13:48

to do. So there's one very nice

13:50

example of a woman, she's

13:52

an academic, she's a young

13:54

woman and she's on this

13:56

committee with four senior men looking

13:59

at grant. applications. And when

14:01

one applicant is being discussed,

14:03

she felt like they were going with

14:05

gossip rather than the credentials of

14:07

the applicant. And she wanted to

14:09

say something because she didn't think

14:12

this was right or fair. And

14:14

so that went against her values.

14:16

And it could cause harm as

14:18

well. It could cause harm to

14:20

the applicant's family. We don't know

14:22

what extended harm it could cause.

14:24

And she wanted to say something.

14:26

And then she came out of

14:28

the meeting and she said, the

14:30

one thing that she wanted to say

14:32

was the one thing she could

14:34

not say. And she, having met

14:36

those people for the first time,

14:38

she just did not want to

14:40

insinuate that they didn't know what

14:42

they was doing or that they

14:45

lacked integrity. And so it was just

14:47

so difficult for her to do so.

14:49

And I think these are the situations

14:51

that we face so often. that we

14:54

know exactly what we want to do, but

14:56

something prevents us from doing it.

14:58

There's such an irony to insinuation

15:00

anxiety, right? I don't want to insinuate

15:02

that they're not acting with integrity. And

15:04

so I will not act with integrity

15:07

and not grace. It's very important issue,

15:09

right? And I say that with such

15:11

humility because I... to do this all

15:14

the time, right, to save other people's

15:16

feelings. I won't make the right ethical

15:18

choice in some situations because I'm so

15:21

intent for them not to feel like

15:23

I'm challenging their moral character. Yes, and

15:25

that stays with us, that feeling of,

15:28

you know, we have that tension that

15:30

we want to say something and if

15:32

we don't, and we let it go,

15:34

then it really erodes our sense of

15:37

self and who we are and are

15:39

we really a person with integrity, you

15:41

know. So it is very important to

15:44

learn how to say something in that

15:46

situation in a way that's comfortable for

15:48

us and with far less angst than

15:50

we used to have. There's a

15:53

well-known study in psychology

15:55

that argues that complicity is

15:57

the norm, right, and defiance

15:59

is the... exception. Do you

16:01

mind telling our listeners about that

16:03

study? Sure. So Stanley Milgram, he

16:06

conducted his now infamous studies in

16:08

the early 1960s at Yale, and

16:11

he was really fascinated by sort

16:13

of the claim from Nazis after

16:15

World War II that they were

16:18

just following orders when they committed

16:20

war crimes. And he really wanted

16:22

to look at whether this was

16:25

a psychological reality or not for...

16:27

human beings. So Milgram brought in

16:30

subjects and asked them to read

16:32

out these word pairs to somebody

16:34

else in another room and if

16:36

the person in the other room

16:38

couldn't repeat them the participant had

16:40

to administer an electric shock and

16:42

increase the shock level by 15

16:45

volts every single time they got

16:47

something wrong. If they protested, the

16:49

experiment would give them some prompts

16:51

to tell them to continue, that

16:53

please go on, the experiment requires

16:55

you to continue, it's absolutely essential

16:57

that you continue, and you have

17:00

no choice, you must go on. Now,

17:02

shocks weren't actually being administered to the

17:04

other person, the other person in the

17:07

room was an actor, but the participant

17:09

didn't know that. And they were asked

17:11

to start off with 15 balls, which

17:13

is basically harmless, but... the board went

17:16

all the way up to 450 volts

17:18

where it was labelled with three X's

17:20

and danger severe shock. And what he

17:23

found was that even though most psychiatrists

17:26

predicted that hardly anyone would

17:28

go up to the top

17:31

voltage of 450 volts, 65%

17:33

of participants did. They went

17:35

up to the most severe

17:37

shock. You know, I should note that

17:39

one criticism of the

17:42

study is that the... The sample size

17:44

is very small, but let's assume

17:46

that this is a legitimate result.

17:49

I'm curious to hear Sunita how

17:51

Milgram interpreted the results of this

17:53

experiment and how you through your

17:56

lens studying defiance interpret these results.

17:58

So Milgram was actually... shocked by

18:00

these results. No pun. I

18:02

want you to use that

18:04

word. I'm sorry we're going

18:06

to have to continue the

18:08

conversation. Milgram was actually shocked

18:10

by these results because he

18:12

did not think that people

18:14

would go up to the 450 volt

18:17

level. So he was actually really

18:19

shocked and he wanted to repeat

18:22

different variations of

18:24

the experiments to really

18:26

find out what led people to

18:28

be so obedient. The way that

18:30

I interpreted it is that the

18:33

subjects that were obedient to

18:35

authority, they were showing some

18:38

signs of being uncomfortable, so

18:40

nervous laughter, swearing, stuttering, sweating,

18:42

asking the experimenter whether this

18:45

was okay, and those signs

18:47

of tension to me really

18:50

stood out from the subjects

18:52

because it showed me that

18:55

they weren't completely obeying. the

18:57

experimenter. Like what Milgram had

18:59

described was this aspect of

19:01

being in an agentic state

19:03

in that the participants were

19:06

following orders because the experimenter

19:08

had told them so. But

19:10

if they had given all

19:12

their agency to the experimenter,

19:14

they wouldn't have felt such tension.

19:17

Yeah, I'm hearing, I mean, the

19:19

expressions that you just described. I'm

19:21

hearing distress, right? Like those are

19:23

signs of distress, and that's meaningful,

19:25

and that speaks to the fact

19:27

that, of course, there was some

19:30

inner humanity that maybe didn't express

19:32

itself in the ultimate behavior, which

19:34

is to say, no, I'm not

19:36

going to increase the voltage level

19:38

more, but it's not nothing, right?

19:40

It's still meaningful. To me, I

19:42

really recognize those signs of tension.

19:45

I just thought those subjects are

19:47

like me. They want to defy.

19:49

They just don't know how to

19:51

defy. That is what really captured

19:53

me about Milgram's experiments was that,

19:56

how can we learn how to defy?

19:58

Yeah, yeah. So we talked about... of the

20:00

major drivers of obedience, which is

20:02

insinuation anxiety, right? We don't want

20:04

to signal that we have a

20:06

negative opinion of another person or

20:08

that we have apprehension or worry

20:10

or we don't trust them. What

20:12

are other drivers of obedience? Like

20:15

what are other reasons why we have a

20:17

really hard time saying no or standing up

20:19

for what we believe in? So one is

20:21

this enormous pressure to go along

20:23

with other people. One factor can

20:26

be insinuation anxiety or just fearing

20:28

the consequences that we're going to

20:30

lose a relationship or a job.

20:33

So there's, what are the consequences

20:35

of defying in this situation? And then

20:37

once we decide... to defy, we

20:40

don't know exactly how to do

20:42

it. We have been so trained

20:44

in compliance from a young age

20:47

and we've become so socialized to

20:49

comply and to obey that we

20:51

don't have the skill set for

20:53

defiance. We don't know how to

20:56

do it. We never get trained

20:58

in how to be defiant and

21:00

speak up when it matters. And

21:03

so is that training that's

21:05

missing from our lives? We'll

21:07

be back in a moment

21:09

with a slight change of plans.

21:12

The Unshakable's podcast

21:14

is back for season 2 and

21:16

it's kicking off with an episode

21:19

you absolutely won't want to

21:21

miss. Host of the show

21:23

and CEO of Chase for

21:25

Business Ben Walter welcomes a

21:27

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22:50

we've been talking about how hard it

22:52

can be to stand up for ourselves,

22:55

to set boundaries and just say no.

22:57

My guest, Unitha, knows the struggle of

22:59

defiance all too well. It's something she's

23:02

been plagued with her whole life, but

23:04

she's found a way through it. She's

23:06

developed a simple framework to help

23:08

us navigate those tough moments, the

23:10

ones where we hesitate, where we

23:12

had just the right words, where

23:14

we want to push back but

23:16

aren't sure how. Her framework has

23:19

five stages. So the stages of

23:21

defiance are things that we can

23:23

start to recognize. And we don't

23:25

always go through them in a

23:27

linear fashion. We might skip a

23:29

stage or go back and forth.

23:31

But they're really useful to know

23:33

as a framework for... how we

23:35

can defy. So the first aid

23:37

is this tension. This is what

23:39

we often feel when we're in

23:41

a situation where we're being pulled

23:43

between two forces. One where we're

23:45

expected to do something by either

23:47

another person, authority, a peer, or

23:49

just expectations or society. Now there's

23:52

this expectation of us and then

23:54

what we believe is the right

23:56

thing to do. Whenever we're in

23:58

that situation, we feel... some tension.

24:00

I often describe it as our

24:02

resistance to resistance. It's really telling

24:04

us that we want to defy,

24:06

but we actually resist it. And can

24:09

you describe what that tension feels like

24:11

for listeners? Like what am I feeling

24:13

in my body when that happens? So

24:15

it's different for each one of us,

24:17

and we can get to know what

24:19

is the telltale sign for us. So

24:22

for some people they feel unease in

24:24

the stomach. I definitely feel that. For

24:26

others, they get a headache or they

24:28

feel there. voice being constricted or their

24:30

throat becoming tight, other people feel their

24:33

heart rate going up, dry mouth. So

24:35

it manifests in different ways and it's

24:37

really useful to know what

24:39

it feels like for you. If

24:41

you can figure out this is,

24:43

oh I've felt this feeling before.

24:45

Do you mean that you've literally

24:47

just described every physiological response I

24:49

have watching the news in 2025?

24:51

So thank you. Actually, to result

24:53

all of them, is that one

24:55

of the options? You can have

24:57

all of them. Yes, you can

24:59

have all of these. Naja, is

25:01

that one of them? Okay, great.

25:03

So just really knowing, like, oh,

25:05

I recognize this feeling. I've had

25:07

this feeling before. And that's

25:09

actually. Stage two is acknowledging that this

25:11

is going on because so often we

25:14

disregard it. We think it's not worth

25:16

our doubt. We think that the other

25:18

person must know better. Like when I'm

25:20

having my CT scan, oh, they must

25:22

know something that I don't know. So

25:24

we often disregard it, go along with

25:27

the confidence of the other person. And

25:29

that's a shame because that tension is

25:31

actually a warning sign to us that

25:33

we might need to defy. So paying

25:35

attention to it and acknowledging it, it's

25:38

stage two. So just like. recognizing, I've

25:40

had this before, this is

25:42

something where I'm expected to

25:44

do something that I don't

25:46

think is the right thing to do.

25:49

Then stage three is the really

25:51

critical stage because it's just

25:53

telling somebody else, it's

25:55

externalizing, vocalizing to someone

25:57

else other than yourself.

26:00

that you're not comfortable with this. And

26:02

that stage is so critical, because if

26:04

you can do that, it means you're

26:06

more likely to get to stage five,

26:09

because you can't go back in time

26:11

and say, oh, you were fine with

26:13

this because it's too much cognitive dissonance.

26:15

Now you've told somebody else that you're

26:18

not fine with this. And in this

26:20

situation, all you're doing is clarifying how

26:22

you feel. So either I'm uncomfortable with

26:24

this. or asking what do you mean

26:27

by that, sort of testing the waters,

26:29

you're still in that position where

26:31

you're not saying anything that's confrontational.

26:33

You could just be acting

26:35

with curiosity. So if somebody

26:38

has said something inappropriate, can

26:40

you clarify what you mean? Have you

26:42

considered doing this? So they're just questions

26:44

that you can ask in that situation.

26:47

You know, I mentioned that this is a

26:49

personal resonance. I was actually misdiagnosed

26:51

with juvenile rheumatoid arthritis for seven

26:53

years because... I think we were

26:56

afraid to speak up and kind

26:58

of challenge authorities, right? And so

27:00

these days I'm the most curious

27:03

patient you'll ever meet. I am

27:05

every doctor's worst nightmare. So curiosity,

27:07

not confrontation at this point. Just

27:09

I'm not comfortable with this. Can

27:12

you clarify a little bit

27:14

more for me? Or if somebody makes

27:16

an inappropriate remark, what do you mean

27:18

by that? So to summarize so far

27:21

to me that we've gone through

27:23

three stages, right? So we have

27:25

tension and feeling that tension, then

27:27

acknowledging to ourselves that we're feeling

27:30

that tension or discomfort, and then

27:32

the third stage is escalation, right,

27:34

where we're vocalizing that discomfort to

27:36

others, thereby cementing it in the

27:38

world in some way, right? We

27:41

can't take it back. We make

27:43

it clear. It's an indelible ink

27:45

somewhere in someone's mind. What is

27:47

stage four? Stage four is now

27:49

your threat of noncompliance. So saying

27:52

you cannot do that. So somebody

27:54

has an expectation for you to

27:56

take the CT scan, do something

27:59

you don't. want to do, you're

28:01

just basically telling them

28:03

that you're not going to comply

28:05

at this point. You've gone from

28:07

asking questions, putting it out there

28:10

that you're not comfortable, and now

28:12

is I cannot do that. And

28:14

then the fifth stage? The actual

28:16

act of defiance. Yeah. Do you

28:19

mind walking me through an example

28:21

from your life where you put

28:23

some of these stages in action? So

28:25

absolutely. having failed with

28:27

the CT scan quite

28:29

spectacularly, I actually carried

28:31

that with me and thought

28:33

about it a lot. What would

28:36

I have preferred to have done

28:38

in this situation? Because this probably

28:41

was going to happen again. And

28:43

so it did. About a year later

28:45

I had some pain in my shoulder

28:47

and it got pretty bad in

28:50

that I couldn't. move my arm at

28:52

times. I couldn't do simple routine tasks

28:54

like getting dressed and so I decided

28:56

I needed some physical therapy. And so

28:58

I looked up how I could get

29:01

a physical therapy referral and I needed

29:03

to go and see a doctor. So

29:05

I went to the clinic. I immediately

29:07

felt like I was on some kind

29:09

of conveyor belt. There was like a...

29:11

forests of paperwork to fill out and

29:13

hand over bank details, all these things. And

29:16

then eventually somebody called out my name and

29:18

I started walking behind them. And I looked

29:20

up and at the end of this long

29:22

corridor I could see a big sign that

29:25

said X-ray. And I kind of laughed in

29:27

my head. It was like, oh, it would

29:29

be so funny if they took me for

29:31

an X-ray before I went to see the

29:34

doctor. And then we started walking a more

29:36

and more towards that sign. And so I

29:38

stopped and I stopped and I said, Where

29:40

are we going? Are we going to see

29:43

the doctor? And she said, oh, we're going

29:45

to get your x-ray. And I said, oh,

29:47

my gosh, you're like, day job. One x-ray.

29:49

I haven't seen the doctor yet. And she

29:51

said, oh, all new patients have an x-ray

29:53

before seeing the doctor. And I was astounded

29:56

because being a physician again, I

29:58

had been trained that. the way

30:00

that you practice medicine is

30:02

to always see the patient first.

30:04

So this stunned me and I just

30:07

said, but I haven't seen the doctor

30:09

yet. And she then looked at me

30:11

and she said, are you refusing

30:14

an x-ray? And I could

30:16

feel that immediately. And you're

30:18

like, hell effing yes. I

30:20

felt that tension. I recognized

30:22

that tension. I acknowledged it.

30:24

I didn't even ask any

30:26

questions at this point. I

30:28

just said, yes I am.

30:30

That's amazing. And so yeah,

30:32

she took me back to

30:34

my seat. I sat there.

30:36

She had no idea what

30:38

to do with me. And

30:40

during that time I squirmed

30:42

a little bit. I thought, oh

30:45

my goodness, I'm being the difficult

30:47

patient. I got called in to

30:49

see other health care professionals. They

30:52

opened the file each time and

30:54

each time they would say, no

30:56

x-ray. No, no x-ray. And eventually

30:58

I saw the doctor. He opened

31:00

the file and he looked at

31:02

me and he said, no x-ray. I

31:05

went, no. The way I got taught

31:07

medicine is that you see the

31:09

patient first, and then if I

31:11

need the x-ray, I'll have the

31:14

x-ray. And I said, you haven't

31:16

examined me yet. And he kind

31:18

of hurried over and sort of

31:20

poked my shoulder a little bit.

31:23

He didn't even check the full

31:25

range of movement, and then he

31:27

went back to his seat. And

31:29

he said, you have to have

31:31

that x-ray. And I said, why? What

31:33

do you mean? and he said,

31:35

bone cancer. And I sort of raised

31:38

my eyebrows and I said, you think

31:40

I have bone cancer? And he was

31:42

like, oh no, no, no, no. And

31:44

then he sort of looked at his

31:47

desk, he ramped his pen on it,

31:49

and then he said, this is

31:51

how we practice medicine here.

31:53

And we just went silent because

31:55

we both knew that was

31:57

not an appropriate thing to

31:59

say. And in the end, I managed

32:02

to say, listen, I would really like

32:04

some physical therapy because I

32:06

think I have inflammation and

32:09

if that physical therapy doesn't get rid

32:11

of it, I'll come back in

32:13

a month or six weeks and

32:15

I'll have that x-ray. So he

32:17

gave me the referral. I felt

32:19

proud and liberated and I left

32:22

that room and I was so

32:24

happy I did not comply just

32:26

because of that pressure. I want to

32:28

talk about... the role power plays

32:30

in all of this because it

32:33

feels like there's no conversation about

32:35

defiance without talking about power dynamics.

32:37

How do you think about that

32:39

tension, right? So it's much easier

32:42

for a boss to defy in

32:44

the workplace versus a junior employee.

32:46

I think that makes a great

32:48

difference. So we do need to

32:51

be aware of power dynamics and

32:53

also what I call the defiance

32:55

hierarchy in that some people are

32:57

allowed to be defiant and others

33:00

face much greater consequences, much

33:02

greater costs for being defiant.

33:04

And we need to be

33:06

aware of that because the

33:08

people that experience those

33:11

greater costs of defiance are often

33:13

the ones that also need to

33:15

defy more often because the expectation

33:17

for them to comply and be

33:19

subservient is far greater. And so

33:21

yes, they have this double whammy

33:23

of we expect you to be

33:26

compliant and so they need to

33:28

be defined more often and then

33:30

there's more of a backlash and

33:32

more costs. In other words, it

33:34

is a privilege to be able

33:36

to defy and we need to

33:38

afford that privilege to everyone and

33:41

be really cognizant of who

33:43

we allow to defy and

33:45

the consequences that we give out

33:47

to people that we think are being

33:49

defiant in a way that we might

33:52

not like. And you know, you don't

33:54

want to see this relationship

33:56

end. So I have actually been

33:58

in this situation. Nice, nice.

34:00

So tell me what the defiance

34:03

expert did. Okay, so at that

34:05

point in my life, I was deeply

34:07

upset with the haircut because

34:09

it was nothing like what I

34:12

wanted. And this is classic insinuation

34:14

anxiety that we're sat on the

34:16

chair. and it's like, oh, trust

34:18

me, and they're cutting and they're

34:20

cutting, and you're thinking, no, no,

34:22

no, how can you express that?

34:24

How can you express that before

34:27

it's too late? What are you

34:29

telling me is that it's already

34:31

too late, right? It's already been

34:33

cut, and you don't particularly like

34:35

it. What a lot of us

34:37

do in that situation, at least if

34:39

you like me, maybe if you like you

34:42

like you, is probably sort of pay and

34:44

tip. and then leave. And in

34:46

one situation I did do that

34:48

and I actually went home and

34:50

I cried because it was asymmetrical,

34:52

it was awful, and then I

34:54

went back the next day and

34:56

I said, you need to fix

34:58

it. So I did do that. One

35:01

of the things about defiance

35:03

is the fact that it is this proactive

35:05

positive thoughts. And if we go back to

35:07

the definition, it's too defies, it is to

35:09

act in accordance with your true values when

35:12

there is pressure to do otherwise. So there's

35:14

not a lot of value at stake here,

35:16

so there's certain situations that we can

35:18

practice our defining, especially if you want

35:20

to maintain the relationship, because it's so

35:22

easy to just say, I'm never going

35:24

to go back to that person again,

35:26

because we don't communicate, just say, here,

35:29

you know, this is actually. not exactly

35:31

what I like. Is there anything you

35:33

can do to make it more the

35:35

way that I would feel

35:37

happy with and have that

35:39

communication with your hairdresser? But

35:41

we can start practicing in these

35:44

situations for other situations where our

35:46

values are actually violated. We can

35:48

practice in the restaurant though if

35:51

we don't like the food or

35:53

the food is not cooked the

35:56

way we want or as I

35:58

remember once after having my... son

36:00

and it was the first time I'd

36:02

been out in a long time with

36:04

a group of other women that also

36:06

had and the food for all of

36:08

us when it came it was so

36:11

salty and we were all complaining about

36:13

it and then somebody came around and

36:15

said is everything okay and we all

36:17

looked up and we said yes everything's

36:19

fine. Even though this is a... As

36:21

you're like guzzling glasses of water. So

36:24

we cannot start practicing for defiance in

36:26

those situations which are kind of low

36:28

cost and yes nothing great is being

36:30

damaged and values are not

36:32

being compromised hugely but we

36:35

can just practice our defiance

36:37

muscles and build them up

36:39

in these situations. We talked about

36:42

stage five being the active defiance

36:44

and I want to add a

36:46

stage six which is the aftermath

36:48

of defiance where you know we

36:50

had Ethan Cross on the show,

36:52

we can get mired in so

36:55

much negative chatter in our minds,

36:57

regret, people being disappointed with us,

36:59

angry with us, let down, us

37:01

being anxious about whether now our

37:03

jobs at stake or our relationships

37:05

at stake. How can we grapple

37:07

with those negative emotions and stay

37:10

resolute in our convictions when we're

37:12

getting so many signals to the

37:14

contrary? Yeah, also a fantastic question.

37:16

And there's a few things here

37:18

that come into play. One is

37:20

when we decide to defy, we

37:23

need to make sure that we

37:25

have those five elements ready for

37:27

our true know, that we do have

37:29

the capacity and we have the knowledge

37:31

and understanding of the situation. and the

37:33

freedom to say no before we give

37:36

our true no. Because if we do

37:38

really understand that, then we know what

37:40

the costs are going to be. Is it

37:42

going to be safe? Is it going to

37:44

be effective? Is the two questions that

37:46

we ask when we're assessing the situation

37:49

for defiance? Yeah, and we so rarely

37:51

get resolution in the short term. We

37:53

don't know how our acts of defiance

37:55

will play out over time, right? Like,

37:57

maybe in the immediate aftermath or bosses.

38:00

quite nice and solicitous and then six

38:02

months later suddenly you get a layoff

38:04

notice right so we have to be

38:06

we have to somehow find a way

38:08

to be comfortable with that uncertainty and

38:10

I think that's part of the agitation

38:12

right that's part of what you're signing

38:14

up for when you defy is a

38:16

lot of uncertainty. There is that but we

38:18

also need to know since you're talking

38:20

about the negative emotions and the chatter

38:22

in our heads. We also need to

38:24

assess the cost for compliance because

38:27

it takes a great toll on

38:29

us if we Constantly disregarding our

38:31

values and bowing our head to

38:33

other people and we can't be

38:35

our authentic selves Then that takes

38:37

a toll on us increases chronic

38:40

stress and it increases burnout dissatisfaction

38:42

even inflammation. So it's affecting us

38:44

emotionally. It's affecting us with that

38:46

chat and negative emotions in our

38:48

head. It's affecting us psychologically,

38:51

spiritually, and even physically. So we

38:53

do need to be aware of

38:55

the costs of compliance as well

38:57

as the costs of defiance. Yes,

38:59

they still might be consequences, but

39:01

that's different from the tension and

39:03

the anxiety and the stress that

39:05

you were experiencing before when you

39:07

have to go against your values.

39:09

That is a fantastic answer because

39:11

I think in this moment, I

39:13

wrongly believed, oh, the counterfactual world

39:15

is neutral. Right? It's either you

39:17

defy or it's neutral, but actually

39:19

I forgot about the psychic risks

39:22

associated with conformity and compliance. And

39:24

like you said, one of the

39:26

telltale signs that you need to

39:28

defy is this physiological expression of

39:30

tension, right? So who wants to

39:33

live with that chronic tension? That

39:35

that's not good for you either.

39:37

And there's such a hopeful message

39:39

contained in what you just said. You know, it's

39:41

very tempting to think in terms of

39:44

absolutes, right? Like, I'm a defiant person

39:46

or I'm a compliant person. I think

39:48

we get typecast a lot as kids,

39:50

right? Like, we're one way or the

39:52

other. But you're very intentional to describe

39:54

defiance as more of a muscle or

39:57

a skill that we can cultivate over

39:59

time. Yes. So I always say

40:01

that defiance is a practice,

40:03

not a personality. And I learned

40:05

this kind of early on, but

40:08

it didn't really register until later

40:10

in my life. I was walking

40:12

home from the grocery store with

40:14

my mom and I was about

40:17

seven or eight years old and

40:19

we had a rickety shopping cart

40:21

that my mom was rolling behind

40:23

us. And we were walking through

40:26

just a very narrow alleyway. we

40:28

were confronted by a group of

40:30

teenage boys and they blocked our

40:32

path and they started shouting out

40:34

some racist things and go back

40:36

home and my mom she's quite

40:38

petite she's about four foot ten

40:41

at the most and she was

40:43

wearing her blue sari and she

40:45

had her hair sort of neatly

40:47

back in one plat at the

40:49

back and I had very neatly put

40:51

her in the compliant box and

40:54

I never thought for a moment that

40:56

she could. have the ability to defy.

40:58

But that day she did something

41:00

very different. When we got confronted

41:02

by the boys, she stopped and

41:04

she looked at them and she

41:06

said, what do you mean? And it was

41:09

just in a quiet voice that she

41:11

said this at the start. I whispered

41:13

to her, come on ma. And she shook my

41:15

arm off and I remember that so

41:17

well. She said no. And she looked

41:19

down at me for a second. Then

41:22

she put one hand on her hip

41:24

and she looked back at the boys.

41:26

And she said it again, this time

41:28

a little bit louder, what do

41:30

you mean? And she looked

41:32

directly at them. And the boys

41:34

were just silent, and they

41:36

started looking at each

41:39

other. And so she said, oh,

41:41

you think you're big strong

41:43

boys? Yeah, clever boys, big,

41:45

clever boys. And they just... Didn't

41:47

know what to say. I'm so

41:49

proud of your mom. That's amazing.

41:51

I know and then one of them

41:54

just said let's go and they

41:56

dispersed and I just could not

41:58

believe this happened my mom the

42:00

card and she started walking as fast

42:02

as possible. And that moment stayed with

42:04

me because it showed me so many

42:06

things and it showed me that defiance

42:09

isn't a personality, it's a skill set.

42:11

If we have a self-concept of being

42:13

compliant it doesn't mean that we can't

42:16

be defiant, we just have to learn

42:18

it. So even if compliance is our

42:20

default it doesn't have to be our

42:22

destiny. The other thing it

42:25

showed me is that what I found

42:27

with the defiance is that it really

42:29

transforms us. We can become more ourselves,

42:31

we can act more in alignment with

42:33

our values, but it also has an

42:35

effect on the people that observe it,

42:37

this ripple effect, or what I call

42:39

the defiance domino effect, in that it

42:42

only takes one person to start a

42:44

reaction that makes a great difference. When

42:46

I talk about society being built up

42:48

of these moments of compliance and defiance,

42:50

That is what is happening

42:52

in that alleyway, because ideally

42:54

what I hope, if I

42:57

make defines accessible to everyone,

42:59

that we build a society where

43:01

one of those teens would speak

43:04

up to their peers. So

43:06

my immigrant mother wouldn't have

43:08

to. That is what I hope for.

43:29

Hey, thanks so much for listening.

43:31

Do you have a story of defiance?

43:33

Maybe a time when things went

43:36

surprisingly well? Or completely off the

43:38

rails? I'd love to hear about it.

43:40

I've just launched a free newsletter called

43:42

Change with Maya Shunker, and this week's

43:45

post is all about defiance. I'd love

43:47

to hear your stories in the comments

43:49

under the post. You can sign up

43:51

for the newsletter at Change with maya.com

43:53

or click on the link in our

43:56

show notes. and join me next week

43:58

when we hear from science writers. Olga

44:00

Hazan about her year-long

44:02

experiment to change her

44:04

personality. There were kind of signs

44:06

along the way that not only

44:08

was I not thrilled with my

44:11

personality, other people were not thrilled

44:13

with that either. See you next week

44:15

for Extreme Makeover Personality

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