0:00

Welcome to ABA on Tap, where our goal is to find the best recipe to brew the smoothest, coldest, and best tasting ABA around.

0:19

I'm Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join us on our journey as we look back into the ingredients to form the best concoction of ABA on tap.

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In this podcast, we will talk about the history of the ABA brew, how much to consume to achieve the optimum buzz while not getting too drunk, and the recommended pairings to bring to the table.

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So without further ado, sit back, relax, and always analyze responsibly.

0:53

And welcome back to yet another installment of ABA OnTap.

0:58

I am your very grateful co-host, Mike Rubio, along with Mr.

1:01

Daniel Lowry. Mr. Dan, good to see you, sir.

1:04

Great to see you as well. How are you doing?

1:06

Feeling good, feeling good. Recovering, a little bit of illness.

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I think it's going around. We'll talk maybe with our guest about that as well.

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But things are going well. How are you doing, sir?

1:16

Doing great. Really excited for this podcast.

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This has been a long time coming. We've We met this young lady a few months ago and I've been eager to get her on the podcast and today is the day.

1:27

Yep. So we are very proud to have Maggie Haraberta as our guest today.

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She is the founder, director of Unfurling Littles, a program that I know a lot about with very little exposure and I'm very excited to have our listeners learn more about.

1:46

One of the things, so we got a chance to meet Maggie at the CPABA conference back in October of 2024 and quite frankly it was my first experience meeting an autistic BCBA so it was a real pleasure to have Maggie be that first along with Michelle Zeman who but we met both of you during that conference and just a very very unique perspective so without further ado Maggie thank you for your time we appreciate you taking time on a Sunday which is when we record to hang out with us we'd like to start with the origin story so tell us all about you.

2:22

Please kick right in.

2:24

Sure. Thanks so much for having me, guys. I'm excited for this conversation.

2:27

So yeah, I'm Maggie.

2:29

I am the founder and clinical director of Enferling Littles.

2:32

And I got into this field the field of ABA because I wanted to disrupt what was happening and help to shift the field to be more neurodiversity firming, more accepting, and a little bit more compassionate.

2:48

So to back up a little bit, I did talk till I was in three.

2:52

I was in conventional speech therapy.

2:54

I had a lot of what felt like just othering myself.

2:58

Like I felt like I never really fit in, never really understood the way that other people worked.

3:02

I was diagnosed with anxiety as a kid.

3:06

And I just, yeah, had that constant feeling of like, I just don't quite get it.

3:12

Like everyone felt like they were going one way and I was going in the other direction and that stuck throughout my childhood.

3:18

And I think that feeling really started to be internalized the older I got.

3:23

So when I was 12 years old, I developed an eating disorder.

3:27

And then by 16, I was a full blown alcoholic, experienced many instances of being in dangerous situations and failed to pick up on those like social cues that I was unsafe.

3:38

And so While I was going through that, I felt like it was the only way that I could regulate myself.

3:45

I was constantly feeling dysregulated and didn't know how else to calm what I was experiencing besides drinking.

3:53

And when I was 22, I finally got sober.

3:56

So I got sober very young, and I've been sober since then.

3:58

I just turned 30 this year. Shout

4:00

out to

4:00

you for that.

4:01

Congratulations. That's a lot of work.

4:03

Thank you. That's a lot

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of work.

4:04

Thank you. Yeah, during that time, though, I was I went to school in the University of Vermont, and I was studying to be an early childhood special educator.

4:14

And I was working as a personal care assistant for a six year old child who was not speaking.

4:19

And I felt safer with him than I had ever felt with anyone in my entire life.

4:24

And, you know, he wasn't speaking at the time.

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But when I was with him, I just felt that safety and security that I had long sought through the relationships in my life.

4:33

And when I moved back to Philadelphia in, let's see, what was that?

4:38

2018. I started working in early intervention and went on to get my master's in EPA.

4:46

And really, the only reason I went through with working in this field is because of acceptance and commitment therapy or ACT.

4:53

That's really what drew me to it. And I thought, well, you know, if this is a part of the field, then maybe I can pallet this and help to make shift.

5:00

And then I found Project Impact, which is a naturalistic developmental behavior intervention and TBI.

5:06

And yeah, I joined the field and I, pretty quickly started working with the middle school population and was doing primarily ACT.

5:16

And I was working with a middle school girl who said to me, are you autistic?

5:22

She said, you're just like me. Everything you describe, everything you talk about, I relate so much to you.

5:28

Like, are you on the spectrum too? And I said, you know, I haven't really thought about it, but maybe.

5:33

And that kind of planted the seed to start to explore my own neurodiversity.

5:38

And then I went on to move in with my now husband who picked up on things I did that I didn't know wasn't necessarily typical.

5:46

And so he really encouraged me to seek an evaluation as well.

5:51

And I worked with this amazing psychologist here in Philly, Dr.

5:55

Robert Nassif, and I shared my story with him, like I just shared with you guys.

6:00

And he said to me that I just described the female autistic experience, these instances of eating disorder, alcoholism, assault, like it's so common in people.

6:11

autistic females. And that was a couple years ago.

6:15

And it's been really, really wonderful to understand the way that my brain works and operates.

6:20

And when I got my diagnosis, it was like my mom got hers as well.

6:24

So she's also on the spectrum.

6:26

Yeah, friends and the family, apparently.

6:29

Two for one. Yeah, yeah, two for one.

6:32

Friends and the family. I've heard

6:34

that. I've heard that.

6:36

Yeah.

6:37

That whole genetics thing, right?

6:39

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, that's a little bit about my story and how I got here.

6:45

A

6:46

huge relief for you in that sense. I'll put that in contrast to a lot of early intervention experiences that I might have professionally where this is a huge concern, unexpected life event for some people.

7:02

For you, I mean, so for parents, it can be devastating and rightfully so, we can understand why.

7:07

You, in contrast, it was a relief.

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to find out.

7:13

Is that fair to say? And I think absolutely.

7:16

I mean, huge relief. And when I do a lot of free speaks on neurodiversity affirming care, and one of the biggest things I say is if you think your child has another neurotype, like please seek an evaluation to spare them what I went through.

7:29

I think if I had known that I operated in a different capacity and it's not bad, it's just different.

7:36

I don't think I would have had to go through what I went through to get where I am today.

7:41

Interesting, because it's always, you know, as somebody who's not on the spectrum, or at least not diagnosed on the spectrum, it has been something that's been difficult to broach, I think, with a lot of families.

7:53

So I guess my question to you, Maggie, is can you expand on that?

7:56

Because the day before your diagnosis, you had, I'm sure you had the same Personality type is the day after.

8:03

So the diagnosis doesn't change anything about you, but what, what did it, did it allow you to like compartmentalize or explain or make sense of things?

8:12

And if so, what things like without getting, you don't have to be specific about the behaviors, but like, how did, how did it help?

8:19

Because it's just a label, right?

8:21

Somebody gave to you.

8:24

Yeah, I mean, even thinking back to some of my earliest memories, like I remember having this, this girl come over for a play date.

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And I was probably in first grade. And I think it was one of my first play dates.

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And I knew that she liked science, like she liked bugs and insects.

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And so I thought, well, I like bugs and insects, then that means that we can be friends.

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So I went and I got all these books about bugs and insects, and I played them all around the floor.

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So and pretended to read them when she came over.

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Because I thought if we had this, this connection, then then that means we that were friends so I think back to that like if I had understood like I you know how friendship worked like some of those like some simple things that people who are neurotypical might take for granted that's just information they have like there were so many times where if I had had more information I don't think I would have suffered like another example is every day at lunch in elementary school I would spill my milk I just have no proprio receptive awareness okay and I'm talking and my hands are flying all over the place I'm crashing things over and every day I spill my milk and my friends would get so upset get up leave the table and I didn't know why or like what I was doing wrong but if I had the wherewithal back then to say oh I'm I just have no body awareness.

9:35

You know, I can bring humor to it.

9:37

I can bring some diffusion and I can also bring some acceptance for my friends that I'm not doing this intentionally.

9:43

I literally don't know where my body is in space at any given moment.

9:47

Well, that's fascinating. I mean, just the affirmation, the idea that this is why this happens and now we don't have to wonder about it or, I mean, people can still be disparaging about it, but at least now they're making a choice to do so as opposed to being curious just like you what's going on here?

10:04

Yeah. That's so fascinating. It's, it's this, I'm not doing this on purpose.

10:08

I'm not trying to, you know, in fact, I'm, I'm excited to talk to you.

10:11

So my hands are moving. I, I gesticulate too.

10:13

So I get that. I get that for sure.

10:15

I have one more question with that. Did it help you understand your behaviors better or did it help you understand other people's behaviors better?

10:23

Cause there's a difference, right? And between your behaviors and other people's behaviors in those regards of like what a friendship would be.

10:29

So what, which, Did it lead you to more internalize of, okay, I feel like I need to now, not need to, but I feel like it would benefit me to explore maybe the way that they're doing things differently, or did it help you now be able to explain to other people so that they can accommodate for maybe your thought processes and perspectives?

10:55

I think that it helped me more than anything understand myself and then also understand why people responded to me the way they did.

11:03

Like in middle school, for example, I was voted most interesting, which really just means weirdest.

11:08

And I understand that now it's because like at that point, my masking wasn't as severe as it became in high school.

11:17

And so I think the biggest thing I would have gained with an earlier diagnosis is I more resources to regulate myself.

11:27

I have this huge stack of demerits that I would get for chewing gum, but I was oral sensory seeking.

11:34

And so the gum was an accommodation that I had given myself, but was punished by the people around me.

11:40

So if they'd known, oh, she is autistic and she might have difficulties with sensory processing, maybe this could be an accommodation we could put in place for something that we would need to punish her for.

11:51

Even thinking about autism my old report cards you know she's constantly moving or she's got to sit still she needs to focus like those would have been great opportunities for me to have an accommodation like maybe i have a wiggle seat or a fidget something that can i can use instead of just telling myself stop moving stay still stay still stay still like stop being who you are

12:14

that makes sense so it like becomes less personalized of why do I feel this way and why is somebody not connecting with me?

12:22

And then you get the explanation and now it allows you that ability to understand why that might be the case.

12:30

Yeah, exactly.

12:31

Will you expand on masking a little bit? Because that's an interesting concept.

12:36

The way you speak about it, it's in terms of your own volition or choice to...

12:41

mask certain things you do in certain settings, that sounds okay.

12:47

Now the idea that ABA traditionally may have encroached or forced masking upon certain individuals, that's a really important difference.

12:56

So it's not masking yes or no, it's masking, if this is fair to say, based on the individual's decision to do so.

13:03

And then, and sometimes it's going to be based on the greater you know willingness to just go with the flow and okay so somebody's making movements that are a little bit unorthodox to use that term what's the matter why are we so caught up in it so even diagnostically the idea that initially you know I'm saying be who you are I think there was a you know with all due respect a traditional notion that stereotypy for example we can make that go away behaviorally and what we're talking about here is completely different this is masking based on the individual's volition what's your thought on that

13:38

I think it's really complex. And for me, I always think about what is the message that I'm sending during my interactions.

13:47

I talk a lot about microaggressions with the teachers that I work with.

13:52

So saying things like, wow, you're really making a lot of eye contact today, or you're really staying still at circle time.

14:00

And those things can be seen as reinforcing reinforcement.

14:04

But what it's really reinforcing is the child's ability to mask their needs.

14:08

And so instead, I have, I'll coach them to use acceptance phrases, such as like, I see you, I hear you, What can I provide to you?

14:16

What do you need? And so helping them see it's okay if you need to fidget, wiggle, and move.

14:21

I'm not going to send the message that that's bad because that's innately what your body is telling you that you need to be doing.

14:27

So I think it's the idea of masking for me is that I'm transitioning into this phase of unmasking and seeking to ask for the accommodations that I didn't have growing up.

14:41

And There's times at which I might choose to mask, whether it's for my safety, for my well-being, for the way I'm perceived professionally.

14:51

So I think the important piece about masking is that it is up to the individual.

14:56

And so as a company, we have a policy that we will not encourage or reinforce masking of any kind.

15:02

That being said, if I'm working with a middle schooler who says, I want to learn how to do X, Y, and Z, I always talk to them that engaging in those behaviors isn't innately bad.

15:15

And masking who you are at your core can lead to negative mental health outcomes.

15:22

So I think when we're working with older children, I'm always making sure that they're aware of if you do choose to mask, that is your choice.

15:29

But I need you to make sure that you also have spaces in which you can unmask to fully be yourself.

15:35

Excellent. I've got to process that microaggressions piece.

15:38

That was really interesting. I've got to let that process because I've never heard it explained like that.

15:45

Let's say somebody's at circle time or doing work or something like that.

15:52

Some of the maybe traditional microaggressions you would hear people do.

15:57

I think you said nice job sitting still.

15:59

or things of that nature, the eye contact makes a lot of sense.

16:03

Can you think of some other traditional ones?

16:06

Because I gotta try to implement this into my practice and make sure that I'm not inadvertently doing that.

16:11

And thank you for making me aware.

16:13

Yeah, I think it's like the calm body.

16:16

I hear a lot, thank you for having a calm body.

16:19

Thank you for showing me that you're ready to learn.

16:21

I don't think people are malintentions when they're saying those things, but what it's really conveying is I like you better when you have a calm body.

16:29

I prefer you when you're engaging in this type of behavior instead of that one.

16:35

And so I think it's really important that we're thinking about those things as minute as they may feel.

16:42

I'm always thinking about what, how am I making this child feel and what I'm saying and what message am I sending to them?

16:49

The way you put it was interesting, right?

16:52

Hey, I can see you. I can hear you. Does that mean in your opinion, the teacher can then ask about that can you see me or can you hear me right now is that okay would you feel and that's the whole point i think what teacher is trying to say in that moment is is i think the good intent is if you have a calm body then i if you're looking at me with a calm body and you're active listening or whatever phrasing people might use the idea is that i feel like you have the best chance of listening to me right now.

17:23

And that may not be the case for any given individual.

17:26

That's just our perception that, you know, yes, the idea that I can look at somebody, you know, dead in the face and they think I'm actively listening, but my mind might still be drifting.

17:35

We just have this assumption that that's the way active listening looks.

17:39

And what you're saying is, no, no, that could be very different.

17:42

It's the idea that maybe your affirming language is, hey, I'm trying to make a connection with you somehow.

17:47

So if I can see you and hear you and you can see me and hear me, then we're good.

17:51

Is that fair to say?

17:54

Well, I think it's that we have this idea of what engagement looks like.

17:57

Y es, we do. That it looks like someone orienting and focused.

18:01

Staring at you right in the face,

18:02

right?

18:04

Exactly. But if I'm doing that, you can notice when I'm talking, I'm not looking right at you guys.

18:09

I'm talking and I'm looking around because if I'm focused on looking right at you, I am most likely dissociating and not focusing on anything else except for where my eyes are in space.

18:21

So when I'm in session with autistic children, typically we're moving all around the room.

18:26

We're not looking at each other, but we're having extremely active conversation.

18:30

That's really dynamic because we're giving our bodies what they need in order to stay regulated so we can access the conversation and the engagement.

18:39

Yeah. So I think it's, like I'll usually redefine for the kids I'm supporting of what does engagement look like for them?

18:46

Cause it's gonna look different for every kid.

18:50

Like for a child at circle time, like something the teacher might do to show acceptance is if they do need to wiggle and move in order to access circle time, maybe they give them a special space that they can sit in so they won't bump into other people, but they can still get their needs met.

19:06

Maybe they have, if they see the child is fidgeting with their hands or looks uncomfortable, maybe they hands them a fidget and just said, I see you.

19:14

This is here if you need it, right? Is that sending the message?

19:17

It's okay if you need to do this.

19:20

It's not bad. And it's accepted from me in this space.

19:23

Thanks.

19:24

I remember I was in college and there was a professor that kind of subliminally did a test on us.

19:30

He was presenting one day and he said, I want you all to count how many times they say, uh, as I deliver this message in the next.

19:37

And then people counted it. And then he's like, what did I talk about?

19:40

Nobody knew what he talked about because it was like your brain could only focus on one of the things.

19:44

And it kind of seems like that's what you're saying.

19:46

If your brain is solely focused on eye contact, calm body, you might lose the total message because you're spending all of your brain space focusing on that.

19:54

Yeah. Is that accurate?

19:57

Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely. Like I know for myself, sometimes at the end of the day, I might just be spent from like verbally communicating.

20:06

And so my husband and I might sit quietly.

20:08

We might not have back and forth conversation. Maybe I'll even message him some thoughts that I'm thinking while we're sitting on the couch instead of verbally communicating.

20:16

And there's always, if I'm having a deeper challenging conversation, I'm rarely making eye contact in those moments because I need to stay focused on the topic of what we're discussing.

20:27

I

20:28

was just going to say this is fascinating. I mean, what you described with your husband, for example, that's an amazing relationship practice that maybe people aren't aware enough about themselves to shut up once in a while.

20:41

Right? So you guys are like, hey, I mean, you know, your excuse, so to speak, is, hey, look, I'm autistic.

20:46

I need to do this. I think a lot of people maybe are missing the fact that you need to shut down sometimes and we just need to sit together and do nothing.

20:53

Because if we speak right now, I'm exhausted, you're agitated, that might lead to.

20:57

I was just really fascinated by you describing that.

21:00

I think it's greater self-awareness where we might look at it from a diagnostic perspective as a lesser self-awareness in some points if we're not careful enough about our thought process.

21:11

Anyway, thanks for sharing that. That was fascinating.

21:13

Yeah, that's what I was basically going to say.

21:15

We both went to the relationship. You have just an extremely high level of self-awareness and a great way to articulate that, which I think bodes well in just society in general, right?

21:26

Because maybe a lot of people aren't able to understand or communicate on the level that a lot of the maybe individuals that are non-speaking communicate at.

21:36

So again, I don't know much about your husband.

21:40

The fact that you're able to say potentially, husband, this is what I need from you.

21:45

This is what I would appreciate verbally.

21:47

He probably understands that and then can accommodate for that.

21:50

And then your level of awareness as well.

21:53

Now, for a lot of people who might not have either that level of awareness, but it's hard to say what people have or don't have.

22:00

It's easier to know what they can articulate back to you.

22:02

Do you have any thoughts on that for individuals that may not have the verbal ability you have to articulate that back?

22:13

Yeah, I think it's about just really getting back.

22:16

curious about what goes on internally.

22:19

Like I know for us, after an activity at the center or during a session, I might say something like, I wonder how that made you feel.

22:27

And I'm doing that to just draw their awareness to check in.

22:31

I'm like, huh, how did I feel after X, Y, and Z happened?

22:33

And so I think that for children who are non-speaking, it's the same thing.

22:38

Like we do a lot of not labeling emotions.

22:41

I don't believe in just blankly labeling someone's emotions, but we'll draw their awareness to their physical What does that mean?

22:51

Like pulling back, pulling, like pulling back and saying that if there was like withdrawing their hands or whatever it may be, but trying to help them make the connection of like when X stimuli was there, my body responded in this way.

23:05

And I think that's really how you make that behavior change over time.

23:09

That's meaningful for that person. And like, it took me time to have that self-awareness, you know, at times I might not know.

23:16

And then I might get short or snappy with my husband versus if I can say, Oh, I'm, I'm a little dysregulated right now.

23:22

I think I need to take some time for myself. And we have this rule in our house that just because we're in the same room doesn't mean we're hanging out.

23:29

And so we try to make sure if we are engaging, like checking in before, like, do we have the capacity to do this?

23:35

Or do we have the capacity to do this? We just need to take some quiet for

23:38

ourselves. Well, dysregulation happens. I mean, we all get dysregulated all

23:42

the time. That's what I was saying. We're not so aware of it or so apt to say it, right?

23:49

So otherwise, we give each other the cold shoulder or the silent treatment or whatever it is.

23:53

That means some level of dysregulation and not necessarily being aware of it.

23:57

That's why I'm so fascinated by that premise. I mean, it's fantastic.

24:01

That is amazing. My last question with the masking piece.

24:05

So that sounds, and we are so on board with what you're saying.

24:10

You've been so integral to us starting our own company and things like that.

24:15

I'm sure we'll talk so much about that as we go through this podcast because we are on, I believe, the same exact wavelength with how the services could best be delivered.

24:23

So you have a teacher in this situation, and you were talking about this in pertaining to masking.

24:29

Maybe the child is running around, rambunctious, things like that.

24:32

And maybe that teacher in that situation can be accommodating and allow for that.

24:38

The way that, obviously, typical education is set up, and we can talk about that probably isn't the best way that it should be, but it is for the most part is sitting down at a chair and eye contact and things like that.

24:53

So do you find a difficulty in taking in a teaching structure which is so much more individualized and child-focused and focused on that one person.

25:03

And then at some point helping that individual transition to a more, what could be called structured or traditional education setting.

25:12

Is that something you advocate for? And if so, do you have any difficulty with that transition?

25:16

Hopefully that made sense.

25:18

So it does. I think a lot of the work that I do is harm reduction.

25:23

I can't change every space in which a child will enter, but I can change the spaces that I can control.

25:30

And so when children are entering into those more typical settings and structures, I always make sure that A, they're not the only neurodivergent person in that room, and B, that if they're going to be in that setting, they have the ability to advocate for the accommodations that they need.

25:49

And so I think when we're thinking about things like accommodations, it is up to the individual to self-advocate for what they need.

25:57

But until they're able to do that, then it's our job as therapists, behavior analysts, technicians, whoever it may be, parents, to advocate for those needs so that they're able to access that environment.

26:09

I think a lot about, are you guys familiar with universal design for learning?

26:14

No.

26:15

No.

26:16

Okay, so Universal Design for Learning thinks about the ways that we can make these things that are unanimously available for people at all times.

26:23

And so I've been thinking a lot about universal design for regulation.

26:27

So having the accommodations in place so that someone doesn't need to ask for them, meaning, you know, fidgets are great for all humans, not just people who are neurodivergent.

26:36

So keep a basket of fidgets readily available for everyone.

26:39

Same with flexible seating, have a variety of flexible seating options available for all humans.

26:44

So when we're thinking about in the spaces that these kids might go into, I think the question is, Are they able to differentiate how people are going to respond to them?

26:54

So we have a child now that we support in a typical school environment.

27:01

And when I arrive, the teachers often get upset because he will start to unmask.

27:06

He starts to wiggle more. He starts to fidget more.

27:08

And so when I go into that space, I am encouraging him to take a break from masking and to unmask.

27:16

And then I'm trying to educate the teachers on that.

27:18

That's what's happening in this moment. The child is not acting out now that I'm here, he is feeling safe enough because I'm here to unmask.

27:25

So I think that there's a long way to go in terms of these environments and having teachers like that that are willing to work with me.

27:33

But as I said earlier, I do these free trainings in our diversity, affirming care.

27:38

And this year I did one in one of the biggest school districts around us.

27:42

And so there is change happening in typical education.

27:45

I think it's just a lot slower than we need it.

27:51

I was going to say that makes a lot of sense.

27:54

Assuming the teachers are willing to work half the time, it's hard, especially with general education teachers, to get them to follow what's in an IEP.

28:03

I can't tell you how many times I've heard, yeah, it's in the IEP, but that's not how we do things in my classroom.

28:07

I mean, that's unfortunate, but that's what we run into sometimes.

28:14

So the more we can educate people, I think that's just amazing.

28:19

What's... You know, what's the trick?

28:22

I'm sure you speak to all sorts of educators, and that's a really fine line between unmasking and fooling around.

28:31

Yeah.

28:32

You know, that's got to be tough to discern.

28:35

You are, you know, Mrs.

28:38

Smith. You've been teaching for 30 years.

28:42

What can Maggie Haraburda teach me?

28:45

This kid's just noncompliant and needs to be disciplined.

28:49

And that's... That's a tough line.

28:51

That's hard because we're approaching it from a sense of uniformity.

28:55

You're coming in and you're going, no, clearly it doesn't work for Johnny or whoever.

29:01

I mean, we can see that. And the more you try to force them into it, it doesn't mean it's going to get any better.

29:06

So what do you find are your strategies to try and educate those people who do have a lot of experience but are walking that fine line between unmasking and fooling around?

29:21

So I have a rule for myself that I only educate those who want to learn and further from once are ready and have the capacity to learn and change.

29:32

So at my company, we screen the schools we go into to see where they are in their journey of neurodiversity affirming care.

29:40

And we're not afraid to say, no, this is not a good setting for us to provide services in.

29:45

And so that's to support...

29:48

My own regulation and our staff's, because if we're constantly in spaces in which we're fighting, we don't get to do the work.

29:56

That's so meaningful. We don't get to actually support these kids.

29:59

And so for me, I go into spaces in which people want to listen and which people want to change.

30:04

And, you know, I often think.

30:08

um, what side of history do I want to be on?

30:11

Right? Like, do I want to be in these environments where I'm not really making change or do I want to be in the spaces that fully want to accept this, this ideological ideology and make those changes?

30:22

Um, and so when I think when I started to say no in spaces, I saw that we were invited more frequently into the spaces that were ready to say yes to this type of interaction style.

30:36

Um, And I think that's what a lot of people in our field are really scared of is saying no to a family or saying no to a school environment and just accepting that this might not be a space in which I can make meaningful change.

30:48

I also think a lot about micro-shaping and we're constantly micro-shaping people's behavior to be more affirming.

30:56

And so if we are in a space that's not very affirming, what are the small, very small changes we can start to make in order to help shift things forward?

31:05

But for me, the risk is to high in working in spaces that aren't going to be affirming when, you know, there was a recent study that came out in 2019 that nine out of 10 autistic females have been assaulted.

31:16

And if you're autistic or neurodivergent, you are two to three times more likely to experience trauma.

31:23

So for me, the risk is too high in continuing to engage and to be a part of those spaces that aren't affirming these kids.

31:32

Saying no, that's amazing.

31:34

Like saying no, I'm not going to work in your setting.

31:37

I wish that happened more often.

31:40

Well, it takes, I mean, from a fiscal perspective, that can be difficult for people.

31:43

That's the challenge is they take anything that comes our way because you're looking to, I mean, yes, there's a fiscal drive and then you're looking to make a change.

31:53

And then to Maggie's point, oftentimes those situations, we end up overextended and actually not you know, making a change and overworking staff and, you know, things like that.

32:05

Give us your best and worst. Give us your most pleasant circumstance in walking into a situation and being like, oh, wow, these folks are really on their way to something more neuroaffirming, more neurodiverse affirming, and then maybe a nightmare where you walked in somewhere and said, yep, no, I can't do this, if that's fair, if you can remember.

32:27

Yeah.

32:28

Yeah, I mean, recently, I went to a school and did one of my free trainings in our diversity improvement care.

32:34

And it's a large school in Philadelphia.

32:37

And then a week later, I got an email asking if our company would contract with them to provide all of their behavioral support.

32:43

So I think that's one of the times when I thought, wow, we're not doing that.

32:47

We want to do more of that. Let's see if we can work with them.

32:50

So I feel like when there's situations like that, I always think, well, this is a win.

32:54

They want to learn. Maybe they're not where I would like them to be today.

32:58

But if that willingness and readiness is there, then that's the space that I want to

33:03

be in.

33:06

Worst situation was probably a couple of years ago.

33:10

I was in a school in Philly, an approved private school.

33:13

And just the strategies that they were using were awful.

33:18

I mean, very, very on the line of abusive.

33:21

And I was trying to just make as many as possible.

33:24

little change as I could at that time.

33:26

But I didn't do it in a way that was slow enough.

33:32

So I ended up highlighting all the parts of the child's IEP that they were ignoring and not implementing.

33:37

And I sent it to the principal.

33:40

And I was asked not to come back.

33:42

So it was a good experience.

34:06

Do

34:12

you find that that's particularly re-triggering or triggering for you, just based on maybe your own experiences in the past and how you may relate to those people that are, you call it being borderline abused, or maybe it's not even to that extreme, but the people that are not being treated with the respect and dignity that you would expect them to be treated with?

34:33

Definitely. I mean, you know, most of the staff at unfurling littles is also neurodivergent.

34:37

And so I have to be really careful about the spaces in which we we go into, because even something like, you know, working towards potty independence, we're in a school now, and the teachers are being very intrusive and physically forcing the child to go and sit on the potty.

34:52

And we're saying we can't be a part of this. But I've had conversations with the staff where it's really hard for them to watch that.

34:58

And same for me, if I see someone not honor a child's Yeah.

35:03

That's

35:34

a really important point. And I think I'm going to try to take sort of a simple premise that you just discussed.

35:40

But I think that in being client-led or child-directed, people often think that there's this general permissiveness.

35:48

They sort of go to, oh, let them do whatever they want.

35:51

What you're discussing there and saying a child, hey, so we're in a classroom, reasonably so, based on logistics.

35:56

We have a bathroom schedule. Now it's time to go to the bathroom.

36:00

Oh, now you're saying no. Okay, that's acceptable.

36:02

However, I see you clenching your legs together.

36:06

You're dancing around. I think you need to go.

36:09

Describe to us kind of your best practice there in terms of being a mindful, observant adult who can say, hey, I really think you need to go to the bathroom, Johnny, but I'm still listening to your no.

36:22

I think that's confusing for people in terms of just, okay, so Johnny didn't say yes right away.

36:27

That's not the end of the world. And yes, I know that you've got 12 other students over here, but you're going to have to come back to Johnny and ask him again, especially because yes, he does wet his pants and you see that he needs to go, but he's really engaged in the blocks.

36:40

And right now he doesn't want to. What's, I don't know if you can describe your best practice there.

36:46

Yeah, I think it's the piece that's really hard for people is the time.

36:49

They want compliance now. Now.

36:51

Right? And they're not willing to wait. And so I think in those situations, it is what you described.

36:57

Thank you for telling me now. And really then that for me is when the detective work starts.

37:03

Like that's as a BCB, that's when our job begins.

37:05

And I think we've been practicing in such a lazy way up to now where it's like, well, child said no.

37:10

I forced them to go. You do what I say.

37:12

Yeah.

37:14

I made the behavior change. What did you do?

37:16

But the repercussions of that are so high.

37:18

So then I need to figure out why did they say no?

37:21

Why was it a no? Do they not have enough preparation time?

37:24

Do they not know where we're going?

37:27

Is it really loud in the bathroom?

37:29

Do we need to find a bathroom that's quieter?

37:31

And really starting to examine why the child might have said no.

37:36

And so I think it's so hard to even talk about what I would do in that situation because I would want to have the background and the history of why they might be saying no.

37:44

Maybe

37:45

they're saying no just because Just because that's their response when someone asks them to do anything.

37:49

So maybe we can diffuse with some humor in that moment.

37:54

Like, no, no, no to the bathroom.

37:57

A lot of times when I'm working with kids, even just playfully responding to their no, of letting them know I heard that you said no.

38:04

Some of them, I think, just want to say no to move towards that yearning of autonomy.

38:10

And

38:10

so I think that's where the... Yeah.

38:14

So that detective

38:21

work of like, why is it?

38:28

No. And what, what can I as a BCPA find out by doing my job?

38:39

And that can be difficult for people.

38:44

And in that moment, we run the risk of being overly authoritarian without any need, right?

38:50

Nobody's going to die or get hurt.

38:52

Okay, so a five-year-old wets their pants.

38:54

Is that completely uncommon? No, it isn't.

38:56

It happens all over the world every day. But I like that.

38:59

Even though that distinction between saying autonomy versus me saying, well, the child just wants to control, which means that by saying that, I want to control them.

39:09

That changes the whole premise.

39:11

That's no longer an interaction. It's one direction.

39:13

It's not an exchange. Again, those nuances, we can cut up in semantics.

39:19

And then I think the semantics, like in this case, just have a lot of value to them.

39:24

Yeah.

39:26

You got some questions. Dan's got his questions. He's getting his phone.

39:29

I do have some questions. He promised he wasn't texting.

39:32

He's not a chronic texter.

39:34

Anything else, Maggie, on the masking piece?

39:36

I really appreciate that coming from somebody like yourself that can kind of see both sides.

39:40

Well, actually, let me go back one second because I do have a question on the masking piece.

39:46

Is there a level of masking that, or how would you describe the level of masking that's done kind of in just general society?

39:56

So, I don't know, if I'm on an airplane, it may be inappropriate.

40:00

I could even, I don't know if get arrested is to get kicked off of the plane.

40:04

If I go up and like yell and I don't know, strip naked or something like that, which may or may not be something that I want to do at that time, but there's certain like behavioral repertoires that are appropriate to certain areas.

40:15

So maybe that's a level of masking that we all do at some point in time versus forcing somebody to be who they don't want to be for the satisfaction of myself.

40:28

Can you talk a little bit about that?

40:30

Because sometimes we have to, or we choose to mask, right?

40:34

Everybody?

40:36

Yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to that harm reduction space, right?

40:39

There are spaces in which we have to mask in order to ensure the safety, well-being of ourselves and others, but making sure that we have safe spaces in which we can fully unmask.

40:48

And I think that's what it is.

40:51

The answer is not never masking, but the answer is having the choice to mask when it's needed in order for safety.

40:58

And I think that... it's not as black and white as a lot of people would want it to be.

41:03

Maybe the child who's wanting to scream, what can we give them so they can not get to that point?

41:13

Because maybe that is a dysregulated child. Maybe if we had given them more sensory regulation before getting on the airplane, they wouldn't have been escalated to that point.

41:24

And so I think it's about really figuring out what what degree of unmasking is this child able to do in order to still stay safe in this environment?

41:36

So what you're saying is, if we were to take a continuum, there's a percentage of time that we individuals with autism, neurotypical individuals, spend masking and a percentage of time we spend unmasking.

41:47

Historically, society has expected individuals on the autism spectrum to spend a larger portion of time masking than unmasking, and that was very harmful.

41:57

So we're not saying that we're completely going 100% unmasking, but we're saying we need to tip the scales a little bit more towards that end because we've been far closer to 100% masking, which has caused harm.

42:08

Is that an accurate statement?

42:11

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also getting curious about if a child is unmasked in a place where you might not typically see someone unmasked, are we wanting them to mask for their safety or for our own benefit?

42:24

And I think that's where the line can get blurred of I would never want to send the message that someone should mask in order to appease someone else.

42:34

But it's a different story when it's for their safety or well-being in certain situations or settings.

42:41

And then how would you, absolutely, that makes so much sense.

42:44

The president of the company I worked for, Proact, really, I use this like every podcast, but she has a statement, whose needs are we meeting when?

42:53

And so often we're focused on our needs, not our clients' needs of just having that person not scream in my ear or it bothers me when they hit themselves.

43:04

So I want to get the feeling of them being okay by them stop hitting themselves, focused on our needs, not why are they hitting themselves or why are they screaming.

43:11

Use the term unmasking.

43:14

So How could you make that visual for, say, a parent or something like that?

43:20

Because you've talked about maybe somebody being rambunctious and running around the corner of a room or something like that being unmasking.

43:27

Would you define maybe somebody hitting themselves in the head?

43:30

How do you define unmasking?

43:35

So for me, I think it's about listening to what signals your body is sending you.

43:39

and allowing yourself to engage in those.

43:43

So like one of the first times after my diagnosis that I could, like tangibly feel myself unmasking was after an Eagles game.

43:51

Go birds. Super Bowl champion Eagles.

43:55

We were waiting for SEPTA to come to take us home on the train.

44:01

And it was super loud. It was bright. It smelled terrible.

44:04

And I was really uncomfortable. And so I noticed that I was uncomfortable and that I started to like move my body in a way that was regulating for myself.

44:12

And then I was able to stay in that environment while I was moving in order to stay regulated.

44:17

So that was one of the first times I was like, wow, i didn't come home and just completely fall apart because like for parents a lot of the families we work with their kids come home and they're falling apart and that's happening because they're spending such a high percentage of their day masking right that they come home and they're just completely dysregulated and have to then figure out a way to re-regulate themselves so in that situation had i not moved my body in a way that was regulating while waiting for septa i probably would have come home and been a complete bear to my husband because i was dysregulated so does Does that answer your question?

44:52

It does. I've seen a picture of what that's like.

44:54

It does. I just want to be clear to what Mike was saying.

44:58

And I want to understand, in no way am I challenging what you're saying, that let's say we're sitting down to do homework or something like that, sitting down to do whatever task or about to do a task, and the individual maybe runs away or does something like that.

45:15

Would you call that unmasking? Because they're expressing themselves?

45:20

Go ahead.

45:21

Well, my first question is why would they need to sit down to do the task?

45:25

Because I think that's the first piece that might encourage them to mask.

45:30

Like, well, they have to be engaged by sitting in a chair to do their work, where I rarely work at a desk.

45:36

I'm typically laid on the floor vertical is how I work best, or standing.

45:41

So I think that's the first piece we're thinking of, because that child in that moment, if they run away, to me, that's maybe not as much unmasking as them not assenting to sitting down.

45:52

They didn't assent to sitting here. How can we restructure this task in a way that they can still be regulated and access whatever the learning opportunity is?

46:03

Man, what a cool dichotomy, right?

46:05

So the moment that child stands up, somebody's going to say that child is no longer able to learn because of my traditional view here.

46:13

And you're saying that child's simply not assenting to sitting.

46:16

That's, I mean, that is just a such a contrast to wrap your mind around but it's so important because i mean you're absolutely right that it's a it's a preconceived notion that learning looks like this and if the moment that you don't fit into that now you're non-compliant and now i run the risk of of uh of you know saying that you're fooling around as opposed to you're expressing a need and you're getting it and then as soon as i can see that you're ready maybe i'm able to offer you this SD and you respond and you do the item on the worksheet and now we reinforce you likely by allowing you to continue to unmask or fool around, however we want to put that.

46:56

But again, it's such a slippery slope. It's a very basic premise.

46:59

It's very parsimonious. And then based on traditional notions of discipline, it breaks all the rules.

47:07

It really just breaks all the rules. Anyway.

47:10

Yeah.

47:11

No, thank you for answering that. You really put things in an interesting perspective and the way you word them is something I probably wouldn't have thought of.

47:18

So we learned so much speaking with you. So thank you for answering that.

47:23

So we talked about the social versus the medical model of disability.

47:27

Talked about it a little bit with Michelle.

47:30

A parent actually brought that up. We did a...

47:33

We do a presentation for parents from parents with individuals on the spectrum on kind of just what it's like to go through getting the diagnosis, what they would recommend kind of being on the other end.

47:43

And one of them brought up the difference between the social versus the medical model of disability.

47:48

Are you familiar with that, Maggie?

47:51

Yeah, yeah, I am. Like the distinct semantics right now of it are escaping me.

47:56

But yeah, I'm familiar with the concept. So

47:58

yeah, basically a lot of times because we're funded by medical insurances, at least initially, it seems like our insurances are under the medical model.

48:06

And the medical model oftentimes operates on, you have a diagnosis, we're going to give you some treatment in the idea that we're going to fix or alleviate this diagnosis.

48:16

That's what the traditional medical model goes with.

48:20

Now, obviously in ABA, we're not that rigid, but that's what the medical model is.

48:23

Whereas the social model is, it's just society not necessarily set up for these individuals.

48:30

And it's not necessarily just the individual individuals that needs to receive the treatment, but society itself or that environment needs the treatment so that they can better accommodate for the individual.

48:42

Now, obviously it's not 100% of either one, but do you have any thoughts on kind of that balance between the social versus the medical model of disability?

48:52

Yeah, I mean, I think we have to play the game, right?

48:55

That's how I always think of it, because we do work with insurance funders.

48:59

And I think that as a company, we just get creative in the way that we're expressing what this child's challenges and strengths are.

49:07

And so even like in our session notes, you know, they want you to talk about those core Deficits, right.

49:21

In this situation, semantics does matter.

49:35

And

49:36

the way that we're talking about these kids, the way that we're writing goals to support them.

49:40

But I think the way you meld the two is by how you're writing the goals so if it's that the goal is for the child to participate in circle time instead of just writing the child will participate in circle time for five minutes because that's like a society expectation maybe you'll say with unlimited access to regulation tools and while honoring a sense withdrawal child will participate right and so it's that slight shift of you know how can we not only look at the child's behavior but the environment in order to support the child's behavior because that they're regulated at circle time, that's much different than just participating in circle time, right?

50:23

This concludes part one of our interview with Maggie Haraberta.

50:27

Please do return for part two and

50:31

always analyze responsibly.

50:34

ABA on Tap is recorded live and unfiltered.

50:38

We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.

50:41

See you next time.

1:42:33

ABA on Tap

1:42:35

is recorded live and unfiltered.

1:42:37

We're done for today. You don't have to go home, but you can't stay here.