0:00

Welcome

0:11

to ABA on Tap, where our goal

0:13

is to find the best recipe to brew

0:15

the smoothest, coldest, and best

0:17

tasting ABA around. I'm

0:19

Dan Lowry with Mike Rubio, and join

0:21

us on our journey as we look back into

0:23

the ingredients to form the best concoction

0:26

of ABA on tap.

0:32

In this podcast, we will talk about the history

0:34

of the ABA brew, how much to

0:36

consume to achieve the optimum buzz

0:38

while not getting too drunk,

0:40

and the recommended pairings to bring to the

0:42

table. So without further ado,

0:45

sit back, relax, and

0:47

always analyze responsibly.

0:53

And welcome back to yet another

0:56

installment of ABA OnTap.

0:58

I am your very grateful co-host, Mike Rubio,

1:00

along with Mr. Daniel Lowry. Mr. Dan,

1:03

good to see you, sir.

1:04

Great to see you as well. How are you doing?

1:06

Feeling good, feeling good. Recovering, a

1:08

little bit of illness. I think it's going around. We'll

1:11

talk maybe with our guest about that

1:13

as well. But things are going well.

1:15

How are you doing, sir?

1:16

Doing great. Really excited for this

1:18

podcast. This has been a long time coming.

1:20

We've We met this young lady

1:22

a few months ago and I've been

1:24

eager to get her on the podcast and

1:26

today is the day.

1:27

Yep. So we are very

1:29

proud to have

1:32

Maggie Haraberta as our guest today.

1:34

She is the

1:36

founder, director of Unfurling

1:38

Littles, a program that I

1:40

know a lot about with very

1:42

little exposure and I'm very excited to have our

1:44

listeners learn more about. One

1:47

of the things, so we got a chance to meet Maggie

1:49

at the CPABA conference back

1:52

in October of 2024 and

1:54

quite frankly it was my first experience

1:57

meeting an autistic

1:59

BCBA so it was

2:01

a real pleasure to have Maggie be

2:03

that first along with Michelle Zeman who

2:05

but we met both of you during that conference

2:07

and just a very very unique

2:09

perspective so without further

2:12

ado Maggie thank you for your time

2:14

we appreciate you taking time on

2:16

a Sunday which is when we record to

2:18

hang out with us we'd like to start with

2:20

the origin story so tell us all about you. Please

2:22

kick right in.

2:24

Sure. Thanks so much for having me, guys. I'm excited

2:26

for this conversation. So yeah,

2:29

I'm Maggie. I am the founder

2:31

and clinical director of Enferling Littles.

2:33

And I got into this

2:35

field the field of ABA

2:38

because I wanted to disrupt

2:40

what was happening and help to shift

2:42

the field to be more neurodiversity

2:44

firming, more accepting,

2:46

and a little bit more compassionate.

2:49

So to back up a little bit, I

2:51

did talk till I was in three. I was in

2:53

conventional speech therapy. I

2:55

had a lot of what felt like

2:57

just othering myself. Like I felt like I never

2:59

really fit in, never really understood

3:01

the way that other people worked. I was

3:03

diagnosed with anxiety

3:05

as a kid. And

3:08

I just, yeah, had that constant

3:10

feeling of like, I just don't quite get it. Like

3:12

everyone felt like they were going one way and I was

3:14

going in the other direction and

3:16

that stuck throughout my childhood.

3:18

And I think that feeling

3:20

really started to be internalized

3:22

the older I got. So when I was 12

3:25

years old, I developed an eating disorder.

3:27

And then by 16, I was a full blown alcoholic,

3:30

experienced many

3:32

instances of being in dangerous

3:34

situations and failed to pick up on

3:36

those like social cues that I was unsafe.

3:38

And so

3:41

While I was going through that, I felt like

3:43

it was the only way that I could regulate

3:45

myself. I was constantly feeling

3:47

dysregulated and didn't know how else

3:49

to calm what I was experiencing

3:51

besides drinking. And

3:53

when I was 22, I

3:55

finally got sober. So I got sober very young,

3:57

and I've been sober since then. I just turned 30 this

4:00

year. Shout

4:00

out to

4:00

you for that.

4:01

Congratulations. That's a lot of work.

4:03

Thank you. That's a lot

4:04

of work.

4:04

Thank you. Yeah,

4:07

during that time, though, I was I went to school in the

4:09

University of Vermont, and

4:11

I was studying to be an early

4:13

childhood special educator. And I

4:15

was working as a personal care assistant for

4:17

a six year old child who was not speaking.

4:20

And I felt safer with him than

4:22

I had ever felt with anyone in my entire

4:24

life. And, you know, he wasn't

4:26

speaking at the time. But when I was with him, I just

4:28

felt that safety and security that I

4:30

had long sought through the relationships

4:33

in my life. And

4:35

when I moved back to Philadelphia in,

4:37

let's see, what was that? 2018.

4:41

I started working in early intervention

4:43

and went on to get my

4:45

master's in EPA. And

4:48

really, the only reason I went through with working

4:50

in this field is because of acceptance and

4:52

commitment therapy or ACT. That's really what drew

4:54

me to it. And I thought, well, you know, if this

4:56

is a part of the field, then maybe I can

4:58

pallet this and help to make shift.

5:00

And then I found Project Impact, which

5:02

is a naturalistic developmental

5:04

behavior intervention and TBI.

5:07

And yeah, I joined the field

5:09

and I, pretty quickly

5:11

started working with the middle school

5:13

population and was doing primarily

5:15

ACT. And I was working with

5:17

a middle school girl who

5:20

said to me, are you

5:22

autistic? She said, you're just like me. Everything you

5:24

describe, everything you talk

5:26

about, I relate so much to you.

5:28

Like, are you on the spectrum too? And I said, you know,

5:30

I haven't really thought about it, but

5:33

maybe. And that kind of planted

5:35

the seed to start to explore my

5:37

own neurodiversity. And then

5:39

I went on to move in with my now husband

5:41

who picked up on things I did

5:43

that I didn't know wasn't necessarily

5:46

typical. And so he

5:48

really encouraged me to

5:50

seek an evaluation as well. And

5:52

I worked with this amazing psychologist

5:54

here in Philly, Dr. Robert Nassif,

5:57

and I shared my story with

5:59

him, like I just shared with you guys. And

6:01

he said to me that I just described the

6:03

female autistic experience,

6:05

these instances of eating disorder, alcoholism,

6:08

assault, like it's so common

6:11

in people. autistic females. And

6:13

that was a couple years ago. And it's been

6:16

really, really wonderful to understand

6:18

the way that my brain works and operates.

6:20

And when I got my diagnosis,

6:22

it was like my mom got hers as well.

6:25

So she's also on the spectrum.

6:28

Yeah, friends and the family, apparently. Two

6:30

for one. Yeah, yeah,

6:32

two for one. Friends and the family. I've heard

6:34

that. I've heard that.

6:36

Yeah.

6:37

That whole genetics thing, right?

6:39

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

6:41

So yeah, that's a little bit about

6:43

my story and how

6:45

I got here. A

6:46

huge relief for you in that sense.

6:48

I'll put that in contrast

6:50

to a lot of early intervention experiences

6:52

that I might have professionally where this

6:55

is a huge concern,

6:57

unexpected life

7:01

event for some people. For you, I mean, so

7:04

for parents, it can be devastating and rightfully

7:06

so, we can understand why. You, in

7:08

contrast, it was a

7:10

relief. to find out.

7:13

Is that fair to say? And I think

7:15

absolutely. I mean, huge relief. And when I do

7:18

a lot of free speaks on

7:20

neurodiversity affirming care, and one of

7:22

the biggest things I say is if you

7:24

think your child has another neurotype, like please

7:26

seek an evaluation to spare them

7:28

what I went through. I think if I had

7:30

known that I operated in a

7:32

different capacity and it's not

7:34

bad, it's just different. I don't think

7:36

I would have had to go through what I

7:38

went through to get where I am today.

7:41

Interesting, because it's

7:43

always, you know, as somebody who's

7:45

not on the spectrum, or at least not diagnosed

7:48

on the spectrum, it has been something

7:50

that's been difficult to broach, I

7:52

think, with a lot of families. So I guess my question

7:54

to you, Maggie, is can you expand on that? Because

7:56

the day before your diagnosis,

7:59

you had, I'm sure you had the same

8:01

Personality type is the day after. So the diagnosis

8:04

doesn't change anything about

8:06

you, but what, what did it, did it allow

8:08

you to like compartmentalize or explain

8:11

or make sense of things? And if so, what things

8:13

like without getting, you don't have to be specific

8:15

about the behaviors, but like, how did,

8:18

how did it help?

8:20

Because it's just a label, right? Somebody gave to you.

8:24

Yeah, I mean, even thinking back to some of my earliest

8:26

memories, like I remember having this,

8:29

this girl come over for a play date. And I was probably

8:31

in first grade. And I

8:33

think it was one of my first play dates. And I knew that

8:35

she liked science, like she liked bugs and

8:37

insects. And so I thought, well,

8:39

I like bugs and insects, then that

8:41

means that we can be friends. So I went

8:43

and I got all these books about bugs and insects,

8:46

and I played them all around the floor.

8:48

So and pretended to read them when she came

8:50

over. Because I thought if we had this,

8:52

this connection, then then that means we

8:54

that were friends so I

8:56

think back to that like if I had understood like

8:58

I you know how friendship worked like

9:00

some of those like some simple things that

9:02

people who are neurotypical might take for

9:04

granted that's just information they have

9:07

like there were so many times where if I

9:09

had had more information I don't think

9:11

I would have suffered like another

9:13

example is every day at lunch in

9:15

elementary school I would spill my milk I just have

9:17

no proprio receptive awareness okay and

9:19

I'm talking and my hands are flying

9:21

all over the place I'm crashing things over and

9:23

every day I spill my milk and my friends would get

9:25

so upset get up leave the table and

9:28

I didn't know why or like what I was doing

9:30

wrong but if I had the wherewithal

9:32

back then to say oh I'm I just have no

9:34

body awareness. You know,

9:36

I can bring humor to it. I can bring some diffusion

9:39

and I can also bring some acceptance for

9:41

my friends that I'm not doing this intentionally.

9:43

I literally don't know where my body is

9:45

in space at any given moment.

9:47

Well, that's fascinating. I mean, just the

9:49

affirmation, the idea that this is

9:52

why this happens and now we don't

9:54

have to wonder about it or, I mean,

9:56

people can still be disparaging

9:58

about it, but at least now they're

10:00

making a choice to do so as

10:02

opposed to being curious just like you what's going

10:04

on here? Yeah. That's so fascinating. It's,

10:06

it's this, I'm not doing this on purpose. I'm not

10:08

trying to, you know, in fact, I'm, I'm excited

10:10

to talk to you. So my hands are moving. I, I

10:12

gesticulate too. So I get that. I get that

10:14

for sure.

10:15

I have one more question with that. Did it

10:17

help you understand

10:19

your behaviors better or did it help you understand

10:21

other people's behaviors better? Cause there's

10:24

a difference, right? And between your behaviors

10:26

and other people's behaviors in those regards

10:28

of like what a friendship would be.

10:30

So what, which, Did

10:33

it lead you to more internalize of, okay,

10:35

I feel like I

10:37

need to now, not need to,

10:39

but I feel like it would benefit me

10:42

to explore

10:44

maybe the way that they're doing things differently, or did

10:46

it help you now be able to

10:48

explain to other people so that they can

10:50

accommodate for maybe your thought processes

10:52

and perspectives?

10:55

I think that it helped me more than anything

10:57

understand myself and then also

10:59

understand why people responded

11:02

to me the way they did. Like

11:04

in middle school, for example, I was voted most

11:06

interesting, which really just means weirdest.

11:09

And I understand that now

11:11

it's because like at that

11:13

point, my masking wasn't as severe

11:15

as it became in high

11:17

school. And so I think

11:19

the biggest thing I would have gained

11:21

with an earlier diagnosis is

11:23

I more resources

11:26

to regulate myself. I

11:28

have this huge stack of demerits

11:30

that I would get for chewing gum, but I was

11:32

oral sensory seeking. And so the

11:34

gum was an accommodation

11:37

that I had given myself, but was

11:39

punished by the people around me.

11:41

So if they'd known, oh, she is autistic

11:43

and she might have difficulties with sensory

11:45

processing, maybe this could be an accommodation

11:47

we could put in place for something

11:49

that we would need to punish her for.

11:51

Even thinking about

11:54

autism my old report cards you know

11:56

she's constantly moving or she's

11:58

got to sit still she needs to focus like

12:00

those would have been great opportunities

12:02

for me to have an accommodation like

12:04

maybe i have a wiggle seat or a fidget

12:06

something that can i can use instead

12:09

of just telling myself stop moving stay

12:11

still stay still stay still like stop

12:13

being who you are

12:14

that makes sense so it like

12:16

becomes less personalized of

12:18

why do I feel this way

12:20

and why is somebody not connecting with me?

12:22

And then you get the explanation and now it allows

12:25

you that ability to understand why

12:27

that might be the case.

12:30

Yeah, exactly.

12:31

Will you expand on masking a little bit?

12:33

Because that's an interesting

12:35

concept. The way you speak about

12:38

it, it's in terms of

12:40

your own volition or choice to...

12:42

mask certain things

12:44

you do in certain settings, that

12:46

sounds okay. Now the idea that

12:49

ABA traditionally may have encroached

12:51

or forced masking upon

12:53

certain individuals, that's a really important difference.

12:56

So it's not masking yes or no,

12:58

it's masking, if this is fair to say,

13:00

based on the individual's decision

13:02

to do so. And then, and sometimes

13:05

it's going to be based on the greater

13:07

you know willingness to just

13:09

go with the flow and okay so somebody's

13:11

making movements that are a little bit

13:13

unorthodox to use that term

13:16

what's the matter why are we

13:18

so caught up in it so even diagnostically

13:20

the idea that initially you know I'm saying be who

13:22

you are I think there was a

13:24

you know with all due respect a traditional notion that

13:26

stereotypy for example we can

13:28

make that go away behaviorally and

13:31

what we're talking about here is completely different this is

13:33

masking based on the individual's

13:35

volition what's your thought on that

13:38

I think it's really complex.

13:40

And for me, I

13:43

always think about what is the message

13:45

that I'm sending during my interactions.

13:47

I talk a lot about

13:50

microaggressions with the teachers that I

13:52

work with. So

13:54

saying things like, wow, you're really

13:56

making a lot of eye contact today, or you're

13:58

really staying still at circle time. And

14:00

those things can be seen as reinforcing

14:02

reinforcement. But what it's really reinforcing

14:05

is the child's ability to mask

14:07

their needs. And so instead,

14:09

I have, I'll coach them to use

14:11

acceptance phrases, such as like,

14:13

I see you, I hear you, What

14:15

can I provide to you? What do you need? And

14:18

so helping them see it's okay if you need to fidget,

14:20

wiggle, and move. I'm not going to send the message

14:22

that that's bad because that's

14:24

innately what your body is telling you that you need

14:27

to be doing. So I think

14:29

it's the idea of masking

14:31

for me is that I'm transitioning into

14:33

this phase of unmasking and

14:35

seeking to ask

14:38

for the accommodations that I didn't have

14:41

growing up. And

14:43

There's times at which I might

14:45

choose to mask, whether it's

14:47

for my safety, for my well-being,

14:49

for the way I'm perceived professionally.

14:51

So I think the important

14:53

piece about masking is that it is up

14:55

to the individual. And so as

14:57

a company, we have a policy that we

14:59

will not encourage or reinforce masking

15:01

of any kind. That being

15:03

said, if I'm working with a middle schooler

15:06

who says, I want to learn

15:08

how to do X, Y, and Z,

15:10

I always talk to them that engaging

15:12

in those behaviors isn't innately

15:14

bad. And masking

15:17

who you are at your core can

15:19

lead to negative mental health

15:21

outcomes. So I think when we're working with

15:24

older children, I'm always making sure that they're

15:26

aware of if you do choose to mask,

15:28

that is your choice. But I need you to

15:30

make sure that you also have spaces in which you can

15:32

unmask to fully be yourself.

15:35

Excellent. I've got to process that microaggressions

15:38

piece. That was really interesting. I've

15:41

got to let that process because I've

15:43

never heard it explained like that.

15:45

Let's

15:48

say somebody's at circle time

15:50

or doing work or something like that.

15:53

Some of the maybe traditional microaggressions

15:55

you would hear people do.

15:57

I think you said nice job

15:59

sitting still. or

16:01

things of that nature, the eye contact makes a

16:03

lot of sense. Can you

16:05

think of some other traditional ones? Because I gotta

16:07

try to implement this into my practice

16:09

and make sure that I'm not inadvertently doing that.

16:11

And thank you for making me aware.

16:13

Yeah, I

16:15

think it's like the calm body. I hear a

16:17

lot, thank you for having a calm body. Thank

16:19

you for showing me that you're ready to learn. I

16:22

don't think people are malintentions when they're

16:24

saying those things, but what it's really conveying

16:26

is I like you better when you have

16:28

a calm body. I

16:31

prefer you when you're engaging in

16:33

this type of behavior instead of that one.

16:35

And so I think it's really important

16:38

that we're thinking about those things

16:40

as minute as they may feel. I'm

16:43

always thinking about what,

16:45

how am I making this child feel and what I'm

16:47

saying and what message am I sending to them?

16:49

The way you put

16:51

it was interesting, right? Hey, I can see you. I can

16:53

hear you. Does that mean

16:55

in your opinion, the teacher can then

16:58

ask about that can you see me or can you hear

17:00

me right now is that okay

17:02

would you feel and that's

17:04

the whole point i think what teacher is trying to say in that moment

17:06

is is i think

17:09

the good intent is if you have a calm

17:11

body then i if you're looking

17:13

at me with a calm body and you're active listening

17:15

or whatever phrasing people might use

17:18

the idea is that i feel like

17:20

you have the best chance of listening

17:22

to me right now. And that may not

17:24

be the case for any given individual. That's just

17:26

our perception that,

17:28

you know, yes, the idea that I can look at

17:30

somebody, you know, dead in the face and

17:32

they think I'm actively listening, but my mind might

17:34

still be drifting. We just have this assumption that

17:36

that's the way active listening looks.

17:39

And what you're saying is, no,

17:41

no, that could be very different. It's the idea that

17:43

maybe your affirming language is, hey,

17:45

I'm trying to make a connection with you somehow. So if I can

17:47

see you and hear you and you can see

17:49

me and hear me, then we're good. Is that

17:51

fair to say?

17:54

Well, I think it's that we have this

17:56

idea of what engagement looks like. Y es,

17:58

we do. That it looks like someone orienting

18:00

and focused. Staring at you right in the face,

18:02

right?

18:04

Exactly. But if I'm doing that,

18:06

you can notice when I'm talking, I'm not looking

18:08

right at you guys. I'm talking and I'm

18:10

looking around because if I'm focused

18:12

on looking right at you, I am

18:15

most likely dissociating and

18:17

not focusing on anything else except

18:19

for where my eyes are in space. So

18:21

when I'm in session with autistic

18:23

children, typically we're

18:25

moving all around the room. We're not looking at

18:27

each other, but we're having extremely active

18:29

conversation. That's really dynamic

18:32

because we're giving our bodies what they

18:34

need in order to stay regulated so

18:36

we can access the conversation

18:38

and the engagement.

18:40

Yeah. So I think it's,

18:42

like I'll usually redefine for the kids I'm

18:44

supporting of what does engagement look like for

18:46

them? Cause it's gonna look different

18:48

for every kid. Like for

18:50

a child at circle time,

18:53

like something the teacher might do to

18:55

show acceptance is if they

18:57

do need to wiggle and move in

18:59

order to access circle time, maybe they give them

19:01

a special space that they can sit in so they

19:03

won't bump into other people, but they can still get their

19:05

needs met. Maybe they have,

19:07

if they see the child is fidgeting

19:10

with their hands or looks uncomfortable, maybe they

19:12

hands them a fidget and just said, I see you.

19:14

This is here if you need it, right?

19:16

Is that sending the message? It's okay

19:18

if you need to do this. It's not

19:20

bad. And it's accepted from me

19:22

in this space. Thanks.

19:24

I remember I was in college and

19:26

there was a professor that kind of subliminally

19:29

did a test on us. He

19:31

was presenting one day and he said, I want you

19:33

all to count how many times they say, uh,

19:35

as I deliver this message in the next.

19:37

And then people counted it. And then he's like, what

19:39

did I talk about? Nobody knew what he talked

19:41

about because it was like your brain could only focus on

19:43

one of the things. And it kind of seems like that's

19:46

what you're saying. If your brain is solely focused on

19:48

eye contact, calm body, you might

19:50

lose the total message because you're spending all

19:52

of your brain space focusing on that.

19:54

Yeah. Is that accurate?

19:57

Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely. Like

20:00

I know for myself, sometimes at the

20:02

end of the day, I might just be

20:04

spent from like verbally communicating.

20:06

And so my husband and I might sit quietly.

20:08

We might not have back and forth conversation. Maybe

20:11

I'll even message him some thoughts that I'm thinking

20:13

while we're sitting on the couch instead of verbally

20:15

communicating. And there's always,

20:17

if I'm having a deeper challenging conversation,

20:19

I'm rarely making eye contact in

20:21

those moments because I need to stay focused

20:23

on the topic of what we're discussing.

20:27

I

20:28

was just going to say this is fascinating. I mean,

20:30

what you described with your husband, for example,

20:32

that's an amazing relationship

20:34

practice that maybe people aren't aware

20:36

enough about themselves to shut

20:38

up

20:41

once in a while. Right? So you guys are like, hey, I mean,

20:43

you know, your excuse, so to

20:45

speak, is, hey, look, I'm autistic. I need to do this.

20:47

I think a lot of people maybe are missing

20:49

the fact that you need to shut down sometimes and

20:51

we just need to sit together and do nothing.

20:53

Because if we speak right now, I'm exhausted,

20:56

you're agitated, that might lead to. I

20:58

was just really fascinated by you describing that. I

21:00

think it's greater self-awareness

21:03

where we might look at it

21:05

from a diagnostic perspective as a lesser self-awareness

21:08

in some points if we're not careful

21:10

enough about our thought process. Anyway, thanks

21:12

for sharing that. That was fascinating.

21:13

Yeah, that's what I was basically going to say.

21:15

We both went to the relationship.

21:18

You have just an extremely high level of

21:20

self-awareness and a great way to articulate

21:22

that, which I think bodes well

21:24

in just society in general,

21:26

right? Because maybe a lot of people aren't able

21:28

to understand or

21:30

communicate on the level that a lot of the

21:32

maybe individuals that are non-speaking

21:35

communicate at. So

21:37

again, I don't know much about

21:40

your husband. The fact that you're

21:42

able to say potentially,

21:44

husband, this is what I need from you. This is what I would appreciate

21:46

verbally. He probably understands

21:48

that and then can accommodate for that.

21:51

And then your level of awareness as well.

21:53

Now, for a lot

21:55

of people who might not have either that level

21:57

of awareness, but it's hard to say what people have or don't

22:00

have. It's easier to know what they can articulate

22:02

back to you. Do you have any

22:04

thoughts on that for

22:06

individuals that may not have the verbal ability

22:08

you have to articulate that back?

22:13

Yeah, I think it's about

22:15

just really getting back. curious about what

22:17

goes on internally.

22:19

Like I know for us, after

22:22

an activity at the center or during

22:24

a session, I might say something like, I

22:26

wonder how that made you feel. And

22:28

I'm doing that to just draw their awareness

22:30

to check in. I'm like, huh, how did I feel after

22:32

X, Y, and Z happened? And

22:35

so I think that for children who are non-speaking,

22:37

it's the same thing. Like we do a lot

22:39

of not labeling emotions.

22:41

I don't believe in just blankly labeling someone's emotions,

22:44

but we'll draw their awareness to their

22:46

physical What does

22:49

that mean?

22:51

Like pulling back, pulling,

22:53

like pulling back and saying

22:55

that if there was like withdrawing their hands

22:57

or whatever it may be, but trying to

22:59

help them make the connection of like

23:01

when X stimuli was there,

23:03

my body responded in this way.

23:06

And I think that's really how you make that behavior

23:08

change over time. That's meaningful

23:10

for that person. And like, it took

23:12

me time to have that self-awareness,

23:14

you know, at times I might not know. And then

23:16

I might get short or snappy with my husband

23:19

versus if I can say, Oh, I'm, I'm a

23:21

little dysregulated right now. I think I need to take some

23:23

time for myself. And we

23:25

have this rule in our house that just because

23:27

we're in the same room doesn't mean we're hanging out.

23:29

And so we try to

23:32

make sure if we are engaging, like checking in before, like,

23:34

do we have the capacity to do this? Or do we have the capacity to do this? We

23:36

just need to take some quiet

23:38

for

23:38

ourselves. Well, dysregulation happens.

23:40

I mean, we all get dysregulated all

23:42

the time. That's what I was saying. We're

23:45

not so aware of it or so

23:47

apt to say it, right? So

23:49

otherwise, we give each other the cold shoulder

23:52

or the silent treatment or whatever it is. That means

23:54

some level of dysregulation and not

23:56

necessarily being aware of it. That's why I'm so fascinated

23:58

by that premise. I mean, it's fantastic.

24:01

That is amazing. My last

24:03

question with the masking piece.

24:06

So that

24:08

sounds, and we are so on board

24:10

with what you're saying. You've

24:12

been so integral to us starting our

24:14

own company and things like that. I'm sure we'll talk so much

24:16

about that as we go through this podcast because

24:18

we are on, I believe, the same

24:20

exact wavelength with how the services could best

24:22

be delivered. So you

24:24

have a teacher in this situation, and

24:26

you were talking about this in pertaining

24:28

to masking. Maybe the child

24:30

is running around, rambunctious, things like

24:32

that. And maybe that teacher

24:34

in that situation can be

24:36

accommodating and allow for that.

24:40

The way that, obviously, typical

24:42

education is set up, and we

24:44

can talk about that probably isn't the

24:46

best way that it should be, but it is for

24:48

the most part is sitting down

24:50

at a chair and eye contact and

24:52

things like that. So do you find a

24:54

difficulty in taking

24:57

in a teaching structure which

24:59

is so much more individualized and child-focused

25:01

and focused on that one person.

25:03

And then at some point helping

25:05

that individual transition to

25:07

a more, what could be called structured

25:10

or traditional education setting. Is that

25:12

something you advocate for? And if so,

25:14

do you have any difficulty with that transition?

25:16

Hopefully that made sense.

25:18

So it does.

25:20

I think a lot of the work that I do is

25:22

harm reduction. I can't change

25:24

every space in which a child will

25:26

enter, but I can change the

25:29

spaces that I can control.

25:31

And so when children are entering into those

25:33

more typical settings and structures,

25:35

I always make sure

25:37

that A, they're not the only

25:39

neurodivergent person in that room,

25:42

and B, that if they're going to be in that

25:44

setting, they have the ability

25:46

to advocate for the accommodations that they

25:48

need. And so I think when

25:50

we're thinking about things like accommodations,

25:53

it is up to the individual

25:55

to self-advocate for what they need.

25:57

But until they're able to do that, then

25:59

it's our job as therapists,

26:02

behavior analysts, technicians, whoever it may

26:04

be, parents, to advocate

26:06

for those needs so that they're able to access

26:08

that environment. I think a

26:10

lot about, are you guys familiar with

26:12

universal design for learning? No.

26:15

No.

26:16

Okay, so Universal Design for Learning

26:18

thinks about the ways that we can make these things

26:21

that are unanimously available for people

26:23

at all times. And so I've been thinking a lot about

26:25

universal design for regulation.

26:28

So having the accommodations in place so

26:30

that someone doesn't need to ask for them,

26:32

meaning, you know, fidgets are great for all

26:34

humans, not just people who are neurodivergent.

26:36

So keep a basket of fidgets readily available

26:38

for everyone. Same with flexible

26:40

seating, have a variety of flexible seating options

26:42

available for all humans.

26:45

So when we're thinking about in the spaces that

26:47

these kids might go into, I think the question

26:49

is, Are they able to differentiate

26:52

how people are going to respond to them?

26:54

So we have a child

26:57

now that we support in a typical

26:59

school environment.

27:01

And when I arrive, the teachers often

27:03

get upset because he will start to

27:05

unmask. He starts to wiggle more.

27:07

He starts to fidget more. And

27:10

so when I go into that space,

27:12

I am encouraging him to take a break

27:14

from masking and to unmask. And

27:16

then I'm trying to educate the teachers on

27:18

that. That's what's happening in this moment. The

27:20

child is not acting out now that I'm here, he

27:22

is feeling safe enough because I'm here

27:24

to unmask. So I

27:26

think that there's a long way to go

27:28

in terms of these environments

27:31

and having teachers like that that are willing

27:33

to work with me. But as

27:35

I said earlier, I do these free trainings in our diversity,

27:37

affirming care. And this year I

27:39

did one in one of the biggest school districts

27:41

around us. And so there is

27:43

change happening in typical education.

27:45

I think it's just a lot

27:47

slower than we

27:49

need it.

27:51

I was going to

27:53

say that makes a lot of sense. Assuming

27:56

the teachers are willing to work

27:58

half the time, it's hard, especially with general

28:00

education teachers, to get them to follow what's

28:02

in an IEP. I can't tell you how many times

28:04

I've heard, yeah, it's in the IEP, but that's not how we do

28:06

things in my classroom. I

28:08

mean, that's unfortunate,

28:11

but that's

28:13

what we run into sometimes. So the more we can

28:16

educate people, I think that's just

28:18

amazing.

28:19

What's... You know, what's

28:21

the trick? I'm sure you

28:23

speak to all sorts of educators,

28:25

and that's a really fine line

28:28

between unmasking

28:30

and fooling around.

28:31

Yeah.

28:32

You know, that's got to be tough

28:34

to discern. You are,

28:37

you know, Mrs.

28:39

Smith. You've been teaching for 30

28:41

years. What can

28:43

Maggie Haraburda teach me? This

28:45

kid's just noncompliant and

28:47

needs to be disciplined. And that's...

28:50

That's a tough line.

28:52

That's hard because we're approaching it

28:54

from a sense of uniformity. You're

28:56

coming in and you're going, no, clearly

28:59

it doesn't work for Johnny

29:01

or whoever. I mean, we can see

29:03

that. And the more you try to force them

29:05

into it, it doesn't mean it's going to get any better. So what

29:07

do you find are your strategies

29:09

to try and educate those

29:12

people who do have a lot of experience

29:14

but are walking that

29:16

fine line between unmasking

29:18

and fooling around?

29:21

So I have a rule

29:23

for myself that I only educate

29:25

those who want to learn and

29:28

further from once are ready

29:30

and have the capacity to learn and change.

29:32

So at

29:34

my company, we screen the schools we

29:36

go into to see where they are in their

29:39

journey of neurodiversity affirming care.

29:41

And we're not afraid to say, no, this is not

29:43

a good setting for us to provide services in.

29:46

And so that's to support...

29:48

My own regulation and

29:51

our staff's, because if we're constantly

29:53

in spaces in which we're fighting, we don't

29:55

get to do the work. That's so meaningful.

29:57

We don't get to actually support these kids.

29:59

And so for me, I go into

30:01

spaces in which people want to listen

30:03

and which people want to change. And,

30:06

you know, I often think.

30:08

um, what side of history do I

30:10

want to be on? Right? Like, do I want to be

30:12

in these environments where I'm not really

30:14

making change or do I want to be in the spaces

30:16

that fully want to accept this,

30:18

this ideological ideology

30:20

and make those changes?

30:23

Um, and so when I think when I started to say

30:25

no in spaces, I

30:28

saw that we were invited more

30:30

frequently into the spaces that were

30:32

ready to say yes to this

30:34

type of interaction style. Um,

30:36

And I think that's what a lot of

30:39

people in our field are really scared of is saying

30:41

no to a family or saying no to a

30:43

school environment and just accepting

30:45

that this might not be a space in which

30:47

I can make meaningful change.

30:49

I also think a lot about micro-shaping

30:51

and we're constantly micro-shaping

30:55

people's behavior to be more affirming. And

30:57

so if we are in a space that's not very

30:59

affirming, what are the small, very

31:01

small changes we can start to make

31:03

in order to help shift things forward?

31:06

But for me, the risk is to high in

31:08

working in spaces that aren't going to be affirming

31:10

when, you know, there was a recent study

31:12

that came out in 2019 that nine out

31:14

of 10 autistic females have been assaulted.

31:16

And if you're autistic

31:19

or neurodivergent, you are two

31:21

to three times more likely to experience trauma.

31:23

So for me, the risk is too high

31:26

in continuing to engage and

31:28

to be a part of those spaces that aren't affirming

31:30

these kids.

31:32

Saying no, that's amazing.

31:34

Like saying no, I'm not going to work in your

31:36

setting. I wish that happened

31:38

more often.

31:40

Well, it takes, I mean, from a fiscal perspective,

31:42

that can be difficult for people. That's the challenge

31:44

is they take anything

31:46

that comes our way because you're looking to, I

31:49

mean, yes, there's a fiscal

31:51

drive and then you're looking to make a change. And then

31:53

to Maggie's point, oftentimes

31:56

those situations, we end up overextended

31:58

and actually not you

32:00

know, making a change and overworking

32:03

staff and, you know, things like that.

32:06

Give us your best and worst. Give us your

32:08

most pleasant

32:11

circumstance in walking into a situation

32:13

and being like, oh, wow, these folks are really

32:15

on their way to something more

32:17

neuroaffirming, more neurodiverse

32:19

affirming, and then maybe a nightmare

32:22

where you walked in somewhere and said, yep, no, I can't

32:24

do this, if that's fair, if you

32:26

can remember.

32:27

Yeah.

32:28

Yeah, I mean, recently, I went to a

32:30

school and did one of

32:32

my free trainings in our diversity improvement care.

32:34

And it's a large school in Philadelphia.

32:37

And then a week later, I got an

32:39

email asking if our company would contract

32:41

with them to provide all of their behavioral

32:43

support. So I think that's one of the times when

32:45

I thought, wow, we're not doing that.

32:47

We want to do more of that. Let's

32:49

see if we can work with them. So

32:51

I feel like when there's situations like that, I always

32:53

think, well, this is a win. They want to learn.

32:55

Maybe they're not where I would like them to

32:58

be today. But if that willingness and readiness

33:00

is there, then that's

33:02

the space that I want to

33:03

be in.

33:06

Worst situation was

33:09

probably a couple of years ago. I was in a school in

33:11

Philly, an approved private school.

33:13

And

33:15

just the strategies that they were using

33:17

were awful. I mean, very, very

33:20

on the line of abusive. And

33:22

I was trying to just make as many as

33:24

possible. little change as I could at that

33:26

time. But

33:29

I didn't do it in a way

33:31

that was slow enough. So I ended up highlighting

33:33

all the parts of the child's IEP that they

33:35

were ignoring and not implementing.

33:37

And I sent it to the principal.

33:40

And I was asked not to come

33:42

back.

33:47

So

33:51

it was a

33:54

good

34:03

experience.

34:10

Do

34:12

you find that that's particularly re-triggering

34:14

or triggering for you,

34:17

just based on maybe your own experiences in the

34:19

past and how you may relate to those people

34:21

that are, you call it being borderline

34:23

abused, or maybe it's not even to that extreme,

34:25

but the people that are not being treated with the respect

34:27

and dignity that you would expect them

34:29

to be treated with?

34:33

Definitely. I mean, you know, most of

34:35

the staff at unfurling littles is also neurodivergent.

34:37

And so I have to be really careful about the spaces

34:39

in which we we go into,

34:41

because even something like,

34:44

you know, working towards potty independence, we're

34:46

in a school now, and the teachers are being

34:48

very intrusive and physically forcing

34:50

the child to go and sit on the potty.

34:52

And we're saying we can't be a part of this. But

34:54

I've had conversations with the staff where

34:56

it's really hard for them to watch that. And

34:59

same for me, if I see

35:01

someone not honor a child's Yeah.

35:33

That's

35:34

a really important point.

35:36

And I think I'm going to try to take sort

35:38

of a simple premise that you just discussed.

35:40

But I think that

35:43

in being client-led or child-directed,

35:45

people often think that there's this

35:47

general permissiveness. They sort of

35:49

go to, oh, let them do whatever they want. What

35:51

you're discussing there and saying a child, hey, so

35:53

we're in a classroom, reasonably so,

35:55

based on logistics. We have a bathroom schedule.

35:57

Now it's time to go to the bathroom.

36:00

Oh, now you're saying no. Okay, that's

36:02

acceptable. However, I

36:04

see you clenching your legs together.

36:06

You're dancing around. I

36:08

think you need to go. Describe

36:10

to us kind of your best

36:12

practice there in terms

36:15

of being a mindful, observant

36:17

adult who can say, hey, I really think you need

36:19

to go to the bathroom, Johnny, but I'm still

36:21

listening to your no. I think that's confusing for

36:23

people in terms of just,

36:25

okay, so Johnny didn't say yes right away.

36:27

That's not the end of the world. And yes, I know that you've

36:29

got 12 other students over here, but

36:32

you're going to have to come back to Johnny and ask him

36:34

again, especially because yes,

36:36

he does wet his pants and you see that he needs to go,

36:38

but he's really engaged in the blocks.

36:40

And right now he doesn't want to. What's, I don't

36:42

know if you can describe your best practice there.

36:46

Yeah, I think it's the piece that's really

36:48

hard for people is the time. They want compliance

36:50

now. Now. Right? And they're

36:52

not willing to wait. And so I think in those

36:54

situations, it is what

36:56

you described. Thank you for telling

36:58

me now. And really then that

37:01

for me is when the detective work starts. Like

37:03

that's as a BCB, that's when our job begins.

37:05

And I think we've been practicing in

37:07

such a lazy way up to now where

37:09

it's like, well, child said no. I forced them

37:11

to go. You do what I say.

37:12

Yeah.

37:14

I made the behavior change. What did you

37:16

do? But the repercussions of that

37:18

are so high. So then I need to figure

37:20

out why did they say no? Why was

37:22

it a no? Do they not have enough preparation

37:24

time? Do they not know where

37:26

we're going? Is it really loud

37:28

in the bathroom? Do we need to find a bathroom

37:31

that's quieter? And really starting to examine

37:33

why the child might have

37:35

said no. And so I think it's so

37:37

hard to even talk about what I would do

37:39

in that situation because I would want to have the background

37:41

and the history of why they might

37:43

be saying no.

37:44

Maybe

37:45

they're saying no just because Just because

37:47

that's their response when someone asks them to do anything.

37:49

So maybe we can diffuse with

37:51

some humor

37:53

in that moment. Like, no, no, no to

37:56

the bathroom. A lot of times

37:58

when I'm working with kids, even just playfully

38:00

responding to their no, of letting

38:02

them know I heard that you said no. Some of

38:04

them, I think, just want to say no to

38:07

move towards that yearning of autonomy.

38:10

And

38:10

so I think that's where the...

38:13

Yeah.

38:15

So that detective

38:21

work

38:23

of like,

38:26

why is it?

38:28

No. And what,

38:30

what can I as a BCPA

38:34

find out by

38:36

doing my job?

38:43

And that can be difficult for people. And in that

38:45

moment, we run the risk of being

38:47

overly authoritarian without

38:49

any need, right? Nobody's going to

38:51

die or get hurt. Okay, so a five-year-old

38:54

wets their pants. Is that completely uncommon?

38:56

No, it isn't. It happens all over the world

38:58

every day. But I like that. Even

39:00

though that distinction between saying

39:02

autonomy versus me saying,

39:04

well, the child just wants to control, which

39:06

means that by saying that, I want to control

39:09

them. That changes the whole

39:11

premise. That's no longer an interaction. It's

39:13

one direction. It's not an

39:15

exchange. Again, those nuances,

39:17

we can cut up in semantics.

39:19

And then I think the semantics, like in

39:21

this case, just have a lot of value

39:24

to them.

39:26

Yeah. You got some questions. Dan's got his questions. He's

39:29

getting his phone. I do have some questions.

39:31

He promised he wasn't texting. He's not a chronic texter.

39:34

Anything else, Maggie, on the masking

39:36

piece? I really appreciate that coming from somebody

39:38

like yourself that can kind of see both sides.

39:40

Well, actually, let me

39:43

go back one second because I do have

39:45

a question on the masking piece.

39:47

Is there a level of masking that,

39:49

or how would you describe the

39:51

level of masking that's done

39:54

kind of in just general society? So,

39:56

I don't know, if I'm on an airplane,

39:59

it may be inappropriate. I could even, I don't

40:01

know if get arrested is to get kicked

40:03

off of the plane. If I go up and like yell

40:05

and I don't know, strip naked or

40:07

something like that, which may or may not be something that

40:09

I want to do at that time, but there's

40:11

certain like behavioral repertoires that are appropriate

40:14

to certain areas.

40:16

So maybe that's a level of masking

40:18

that we all do at some point in time

40:21

versus forcing somebody

40:23

to be who they don't want to be for

40:25

the satisfaction of myself.

40:28

Can you talk a little bit

40:30

about that? Because sometimes

40:32

we have to, or we choose to mask, right?

40:35

Everybody?

40:36

Yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to that

40:38

harm reduction space, right? There are spaces

40:40

in which we have to mask in order to ensure

40:42

the safety, well-being of ourselves and others,

40:45

but making sure that we have safe spaces in

40:47

which we can fully unmask.

40:49

And I think that's what it is. The answer

40:51

is not never masking, but the answer

40:53

is having the choice to mask

40:55

when it's needed in order for

40:57

safety. And I think that...

41:00

it's not as black and white as

41:02

a lot of people would want it to be. Maybe

41:07

the child who's wanting to

41:09

scream, what can we

41:11

give them so they can not get to

41:13

that point? Because maybe that is a dysregulated

41:15

child. Maybe if we had given them

41:17

more sensory regulation

41:19

before getting on the airplane, they wouldn't

41:21

have been escalated to

41:23

that point. And so I think it's about

41:25

really figuring out what what

41:28

degree of unmasking

41:30

is this child able to do in order to

41:32

still stay safe in this environment?

41:36

So what you're saying is, if we were to take a continuum,

41:38

there's a percentage of time that

41:40

we individuals with autism,

41:43

neurotypical individuals,

41:45

spend masking and a percentage of time we spend

41:47

unmasking. Historically,

41:49

society has expected individuals

41:51

on the autism spectrum to spend a

41:53

larger portion of time masking than

41:55

unmasking, and that was very harmful.

41:57

So we're not saying that we're completely going

41:59

100% unmasking, but

42:01

we're saying we need to tip the scales a little bit more

42:04

towards that end because we've been far closer

42:06

to 100% masking, which has caused harm.

42:08

Is that an accurate statement?

42:11

Yeah, I think so. And I think it's also

42:13

getting curious about if a child

42:15

is unmasked in a place where you might not

42:18

typically see someone unmasked,

42:20

are we wanting them to mask

42:22

for their safety or for our own benefit?

42:24

And I think that's where the

42:27

line can get blurred of I would

42:29

never want to send the message that someone

42:31

should mask in order to appease

42:33

someone else. But it's a different

42:35

story when it's for their safety or well-being

42:38

in certain situations or settings.

42:41

And then how would you, absolutely, that

42:43

makes so much sense. The president

42:45

of the company I worked

42:47

for, Proact, really, I

42:49

use this like every podcast, but she has

42:51

a statement, whose needs are we meeting

42:53

when? And so often we're focused on our

42:55

needs, not our clients' needs of just

42:57

having that person

42:59

not scream in my ear or

43:02

it bothers me when they hit themselves. So

43:04

I want to get the feeling of them being

43:06

okay by them stop hitting themselves, focused

43:08

on our needs, not why are they hitting themselves

43:10

or why are they screaming. Use

43:12

the term unmasking. So

43:15

How could you make that visual

43:18

for, say, a parent or something like that?

43:20

Because you've talked about maybe somebody

43:22

being rambunctious and running around

43:24

the corner of a room or something like that being unmasking.

43:27

Would you define maybe somebody hitting

43:29

themselves in the head? How

43:31

do you define unmasking?

43:35

So for me, I think it's about listening

43:37

to what signals your body is

43:39

sending you. and allowing yourself

43:41

to engage in those.

43:43

So like one of the first times after

43:45

my diagnosis that I could, like

43:48

tangibly feel myself unmasking was

43:50

after an Eagles game. Go birds.

43:53

Super Bowl champion Eagles. We

43:55

were

43:57

waiting for SEPTA

43:59

to come to take us home on the train. And it was

44:01

super loud. It was bright. It smelled

44:03

terrible. And I was really uncomfortable. And

44:05

so I noticed that I was uncomfortable

44:08

and that I started to like move

44:10

my body in a way that was regulating

44:12

for myself. And then I was able to

44:14

stay in that environment while I

44:16

was moving in order to stay regulated. So

44:18

that was one of the first times I was

44:20

like, wow, i didn't come

44:22

home and just completely fall apart

44:24

because like for parents a lot of the

44:26

families we work with their kids come home and they're

44:28

falling apart and that's happening because they're

44:30

spending such a high percentage of their day

44:32

masking right that they come home and they're just

44:34

completely dysregulated and have

44:36

to then figure out a way to re-regulate themselves

44:39

so in that situation had

44:41

i not moved my body in a way that was regulating

44:43

while waiting for septa i probably

44:46

would have come home and been a complete bear

44:48

to my husband because i was dysregulated

44:50

so does Does that answer your question?

44:52

It does. I've seen a picture of what that's like.

44:54

It does. I just want to be clear

44:56

to what Mike was saying. And I

44:59

want to understand, in no way am I challenging what you're saying,

45:01

that let's

45:03

say we're sitting down to

45:05

do homework or something like that, sitting

45:08

down to do whatever task or about

45:10

to do a task, and the individual

45:12

maybe runs away or does something

45:15

like that. Would you call that unmasking?

45:18

Because they're expressing themselves? Go ahead.

45:21

Well, my first question is why would they

45:23

need to sit down to do the task?

45:25

Because I think that's the first piece that

45:27

might encourage them to mask.

45:30

Like, well, they have to be engaged

45:32

by sitting in a chair to do their

45:34

work, where I rarely work at

45:36

a desk. I'm typically laid on the floor

45:38

vertical is how I work best, or

45:40

standing. So I think that's the

45:42

first piece we're thinking of, because that child

45:45

in that moment, if they

45:47

run away, to me, that's maybe not as much

45:49

unmasking as them not assenting

45:51

to sitting down. They didn't assent to sitting

45:54

here. How can we restructure

45:56

this task in a way that they can

45:58

still be regulated and access

46:00

whatever the learning opportunity is?

46:03

Man, what a cool dichotomy, right?

46:05

So the moment that child

46:07

stands up, somebody's going

46:09

to say that child is no longer able to

46:11

learn because of my traditional view here.

46:13

And you're saying that child's simply

46:15

not assenting to sitting. That's,

46:17

I mean, that is just a such a contrast

46:20

to wrap your mind around but it's so important

46:22

because i mean you're absolutely

46:24

right that it's a it's a preconceived

46:27

notion that learning looks like this

46:29

and if the moment that you don't fit

46:31

into that now you're non-compliant

46:33

and now i run the risk of

46:36

of uh of you know saying that you're

46:38

fooling around as opposed to you're expressing

46:40

a need and you're getting it and then as soon

46:42

as i can see that you're ready maybe i'm able

46:44

to offer you this SD

46:46

and you respond and you do the

46:49

item on the worksheet and now we reinforce

46:51

you likely by allowing you to continue to

46:53

unmask or fool around, however we

46:55

want to put that. But again, it's such a slippery

46:57

slope. It's a very basic premise.

46:59

It's very parsimonious. And then based

47:02

on traditional notions

47:04

of discipline, it breaks all

47:06

the rules. It really just breaks

47:08

all the rules. Anyway.

47:10

Yeah.

47:11

No, thank you for answering that. You really put things

47:13

in an interesting perspective and the way you word

47:15

them is something I probably

47:17

wouldn't have thought of. So we learned so much speaking

47:19

with you. So thank you for

47:21

answering that. So

47:23

we talked about the social

47:26

versus the medical model of disability. Talked about

47:28

it a little bit with Michelle. A parent

47:30

actually brought that up. We did

47:33

a... We do a presentation for

47:35

parents from parents with individuals

47:37

on the spectrum on kind of

47:39

just what it's like to go through getting the diagnosis,

47:41

what they would recommend kind of being on the other end.

47:43

And one of them brought up the difference between

47:45

the social versus the medical model of disability.

47:48

Are you familiar with that,

47:50

Maggie?

47:51

Yeah, yeah, I am. Like the

47:53

distinct semantics right now of it are

47:56

escaping me. But yeah, I'm familiar with the concept.

47:58

So

47:58

yeah, basically a lot of times

48:01

because we're funded by medical insurances,

48:03

at least initially, it seems like our insurances

48:05

are under the medical model. And the medical model

48:08

oftentimes operates on, you have a diagnosis,

48:10

we're going to give you some treatment

48:13

in the idea that we're going to

48:15

fix or alleviate this diagnosis. That's

48:17

what the traditional medical model

48:19

goes with. Now, obviously in ABA, we're

48:21

not that rigid, but that's what the medical model

48:23

is. Whereas the social model

48:25

is, it's just society not necessarily

48:28

set up for these individuals.

48:30

And it's not necessarily just the individual

48:32

individuals that needs to

48:34

receive the treatment, but society itself

48:37

or that environment needs the treatment

48:39

so that they can better accommodate

48:41

for the individual. Now, obviously it's

48:43

not 100% of either one, but do

48:45

you have any thoughts on kind of that

48:48

balance between the social versus the medical

48:50

model of disability?

48:52

Yeah, I mean, I think we have to play the game,

48:54

right? That's how I always think of it, because

48:57

we do work with insurance

48:59

funders. And I think that

49:01

as a company, we just get creative in the way

49:03

that we're expressing what this

49:05

child's challenges and strengths are. And

49:07

so even like in our session notes, you know, they

49:10

want you to talk about those core

49:12

Deficits,

49:17

right.

49:32

In this situation, semantics

49:34

does matter.

49:35

And

49:36

the way that we're talking about these kids, the way

49:38

that we're writing goals to support

49:40

them. But I think the way you meld

49:42

the two is

49:44

by how you're writing the

49:46

goals so if it's that

49:48

the goal is for the child to

49:50

participate in circle time instead

49:53

of just writing the child will participate in

49:55

circle time for five minutes because that's

49:57

like a society expectation maybe

49:59

you'll say with unlimited access to

50:01

regulation tools and while honoring

50:03

a sense withdrawal child will participate

50:06

right and so it's that slight

50:08

shift of you know how can we not only

50:10

look at the child's behavior but the environment

50:12

in order to support the child's behavior

50:15

because that they're regulated at circle

50:17

time, that's much different than just

50:20

participating in circle time, right?

50:23

This concludes part one of

50:25

our interview with Maggie Haraberta.

50:27

Please do return for part

50:29

two and

50:31

always analyze responsibly.

50:34

ABA on Tap is recorded

50:36

live and unfiltered.

50:38

We're done for today. You don't have to go

50:40

home, but you can't stay here.

50:43

See you next time.

1:42:33

ABA on Tap

1:42:35

is recorded live and unfiltered.

1:42:37

We're done for today. You

1:42:39

don't have to go home, but you can't stay

1:42:41

here. See you next time.