0:00

Hey, it's Kathy. Before we jump into

0:02

the episode, I just want to let

0:04

you know that the doors are open

0:06

to my podcast Accelerator, and you can

0:09

bundle this together with my full business

0:11

coaching. The podcast program alone is seven

0:13

months, and you can dive right in

0:16

and spend the next year with me,

0:18

monetize and amplify your podcast with confidence,

0:20

up, make your offers, make money, doing

0:23

what you love, get paid to be

0:25

you. There's going to be live coaching

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can build a really solid

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foundation. If you want to join,

0:40

go to Kathy heller.com/join. Hey,

0:43

it's Kathy Heller. Welcome

0:45

back to Abundant

0:47

Ever After. I hope you

0:49

had a beautiful weekend. I

0:51

spent time with myself. I

0:54

actually asked ChatGPT. What

0:56

can I do when I'm the

0:58

kind of person who's always giving

1:00

to everybody else? And sometimes I

1:02

feel a little bit depleted. If

1:04

I have some free time, what

1:06

can I do? And it actually

1:08

gave me a list of suggestions.

1:11

And then I realize that sometimes

1:13

if I don't have work or I don't

1:15

have something to do for my daughters,

1:17

and there's free time, I initially

1:19

don't know what I'm supposed to do.

1:22

And oh my gosh, did I turn that

1:24

around this weekend? I was like, oh. I

1:26

can actually find myself just

1:28

sitting with a cup of tea, making

1:31

a lunch date with a friend, taking

1:33

a walk, just to bathe in beauty.

1:35

It was so nice, so I highly

1:37

recommend that we all do more of that.

1:39

Okay, well today I'm excited because

1:42

my friend Christine Hasler is here

1:44

on the show. She's an amazing

1:46

person. She's a master coach, spiritual

1:48

psychologist, facilitator, speaker, best-selling author, and

1:50

podcast host who helps people to

1:53

overcome any obstacle standing between them

1:55

and what they want. She's written

1:57

books like 20-something, 20-everything, 20-20.

1:59

something manifesto, expectation hangover. And she hosts

2:02

the podcast over it and on with

2:04

it, where she coaches people on air

2:06

about practical tools and spiritual principles to

2:08

help overcome whatever obstacles might be holding

2:10

you back. On her show, she also

2:12

speaks with guests like Terry Cole, Mark

2:14

Groves. I just recently did her show,

2:16

and it was a beautiful conversation, so

2:19

you can go check that out. Christine

2:21

and her husband's staff teach an incredible

2:23

program called Be the Queen. It's all

2:25

about guiding women toward healing self-love and

2:27

creating fulfilling romantic relationships. So we're going

2:29

to dive into some of those topics

2:31

today. And I think that this is

2:33

a really honest and real conversation and

2:35

I'm even going to talk about what's

2:37

going on in my own marriage, so

2:40

stay real and honest, and I'm even

2:42

going to talk about what's going on

2:44

in my own marriage, which is pretty

2:46

real and honest. So stay tuned for

2:48

that. Christine Hasler. Christine, thank you so

2:50

much for coming on. I was just

2:52

telling you before we officially started recording

2:54

that, I genuinely personally want to be

2:56

learning from you all the things that

2:58

you are really excited and focused on

3:01

right now in terms of women stepping

3:03

into their femininity and what it really

3:05

means, like be the queen in our

3:07

life, which is the name of your

3:09

new coaching program. So thank you for

3:11

coming in because I just can't wait

3:13

to take the notes and learn. Oh

3:15

my gosh, you don't have to thank

3:17

me. This is what I love. So

3:19

much. I know and by the way

3:22

I know you just moved but you

3:24

already are so stylish like the plant

3:26

and what's behind you and I know

3:28

you guys are like that's a big

3:30

tease because you can't see but it's

3:32

just it's it's really it's quite a

3:34

feat that you moved recently and you

3:36

already have it. You just haven't looked

3:39

like it's all ready to come up.

3:41

Well, this is, this is, so one

3:43

of the things that I study and

3:45

teach is nervous system regulation. And I

3:48

have learned for, for me in particular,

3:50

and I think it's true for a

3:52

lot of women, our environment drastically impacts

3:54

our nervous system. So for me to

3:57

live in messiness and unpacked boxes is

3:59

more stressful than just like... We just

4:01

like hunkered down for two days and

4:03

we just got it done and I

4:06

also you know part of being a

4:08

queen is asking for support and enrolling

4:10

support and not Trying to be a

4:12

superhero woman and do it all ourselves

4:15

Everything you just said so I think

4:17

all of us can use the reminder

4:19

to ask for help and receive. Yes,

4:21

and receive it and not feel guilty

4:23

about it and not feel like you

4:26

have to give something back and realize

4:28

it truly is a gift for people

4:30

to support and Oftentimes, like our gratitude

4:32

for that and are letting that in

4:35

is the gift to the other person.

4:37

And women, if we think about basic

4:39

anatomy, we are the receivers. That is

4:41

our most biological truth. And we live

4:44

out of harmony with that so much

4:46

by being the doer, by being the

4:48

giver. And yes, as women were naturally

4:50

givers, that's just something that feels good

4:53

to us. But if we do it

4:55

from a depleted state, then we're in

4:57

the shadow of giving. We're in the

4:59

people pleasing. We're in the like, I

5:01

have to do this because we're in

5:04

the overcompensating. And that's the kind of

5:06

giving that, you know, gives you thyroid

5:08

problems and makes your hair fall out.

5:10

And you hold on to excess weight

5:13

and I can go on and on

5:15

and on because women, we can survive

5:17

depleted. We can still do it. However,

5:19

something pays the price. Our relationships, our

5:22

body, our nervous system, our friendships, our

5:24

marriage, you name it. So I am

5:26

such a stand, and I'm a stand

5:28

for this because I had to learn

5:31

this, for women coming from a full

5:33

cup and giving from that overflow. I

5:35

just love listening to you say all

5:37

those things. My husband often tells me

5:40

that I'm like the giving tree. It's

5:42

a very sad book. He goes, it

5:44

is. He goes at the end, there's

5:46

nothing left. And so he'll be like

5:48

standing off to the side and we'll

5:51

be at some event and someone will

5:53

walk over and say, oh, would you

5:55

mind? Could you open your home and

5:57

host for this charity thing? And as

6:00

I go to say yes, he goes,

6:02

no, she can't. She actually has to

6:04

say. know. I love that. Anything else

6:06

this year. And then I'm like, why

6:09

are you my business? And he's like,

6:11

because all you do is say yes,

6:13

and you are a shell of yourself

6:15

most of the time. And I was

6:18

talking to my our mutual friend. We

6:20

have a bunch of mutual friends, which

6:22

probably says a lot about who we

6:24

are. But Kate Northrop and I were

6:26

having a conversation. She said, just because

6:29

you can see a black diamond doesn't

6:31

mean that that's what you should do

6:33

daily. And I think a lot of

6:35

women are quite talented at reading a

6:38

room and quite talented at really genuinely

6:40

making other people happy and then we

6:42

make it our entire life do that

6:44

and then we wonder why after everybody

6:47

leaves Thanksgiving dinner we're having like a

6:49

panic attack because we forgot to even

6:51

get up to pee during dinner. Yeah

6:53

or eat you know and I love

6:56

what you said about... just because we

6:58

can, but also just even if we

7:00

enjoy it, doesn't mean we should do

7:02

it. Like I'm sure there's a big

7:05

part of you that enjoys opening your

7:07

home and hosting people, but there's a

7:09

limit to that. You know, and in

7:11

the words of Terry Reel, like we

7:13

have our internal boundaries, like our boundaries

7:16

with ourselves, and then our limits with

7:18

other people. And when we don't honor

7:20

those, we end up, like I said,

7:22

depleted or resentful or tired or just

7:25

kind of questioning, like why did I

7:27

do that I do that again? Yeah.

7:29

Why did I do that again? But

7:31

we, you know, I know for myself,

7:34

this is something I had to work

7:36

on for many years. The upsetting other

7:38

people or letting other people down thing

7:40

is a thing. It's a thing. And

7:43

especially when we care deeply is more

7:45

than just what someone's going to think

7:47

of us. We can be uncomfortable with

7:49

other people's discomfort. And I'm so glad

7:51

you brought up the giving tree because

7:54

I would rename that book the codependent

7:56

tree. That's a more accurate name. for

7:58

that book. And for those who don't

8:00

know the book, somebody gave me that

8:03

book for my daughter. And I'm like...

8:05

Thank you, and I will never read

8:07

that book to her because it's just

8:09

like given given given given till you're

8:12

basically a stump and Why why do

8:14

we ever want to teach that? But

8:16

for so many like centuries that's been

8:18

modeled for us in so many ways.

8:21

And there's this kind of expectation that

8:23

we are here to make everyone else

8:25

happy. And for so many women, they're

8:27

the nucleus of the family. And for

8:30

so many of the people listening, you're

8:32

probably in the sandwich generation of having

8:34

your kids and your parents that you're

8:36

taking care of. And there's like so

8:38

many people that you think you need

8:41

to take care of and make happy.

8:43

And it's exhausting. And one of the

8:45

best things I have done. in my

8:47

life is work on my own internal

8:50

boundaries, set my limits with others, and

8:52

let it be okay if someone's mad

8:54

at me. Let it be okay if

8:56

someone's upset. Let it be okay if

8:59

someone's disappointed. Because if you can't be

9:01

with that, you will never have healthy

9:03

boundaries and limits in your life. Yeah.

9:05

I want to ask you this question

9:08

because it feels almost universal. I was

9:10

hosting this event recently and we were

9:12

talking about... some of these kinds of

9:14

things. And this woman raised her hand

9:16

and she very bravely set out loud

9:19

when everyone was thinking and she said,

9:21

why is it that while you're sharing

9:23

all of this, I have this part

9:25

of me that feels like it's selfish

9:28

and I feel shame for listening to

9:30

what you're saying. It's almost like there's

9:32

this cognitive dissonance. It's so wired into

9:34

me that it really feels wrong. Think

9:37

about making my day first priority about

9:39

my own being filled up and taking

9:41

care of myself. It literally, I said,

9:43

raise your hand if you feel like

9:46

you've been taught that without thinking about

9:48

it or not, it makes you feel

9:50

like that would be selfish and everybody

9:52

raised their hand except for like three

9:55

people. So what has been conditioned that

9:57

we feel like it is selfish to?

9:59

create that life where our cup is

10:01

filled? What about that feel selfish and

10:03

how do we unwind that so that

10:06

we actually see it correctly? I'm so

10:08

glad you brought this up because, like you

10:10

said, every hand in the room almost

10:12

went up. And so this is

10:14

an extremely common thing, especially with

10:16

women. So let's back it up,

10:18

way back to childhood and talk

10:21

developmental psychology for a moment. There's

10:23

certain developmental stages, if you go

10:25

into Erickson stages of development, where

10:27

certain needs need to be met,

10:29

like our psychosocial needs need to

10:32

be met. And one of those

10:34

stages is like feeling like other

10:36

people are there to meet our

10:38

needs and take care of us,

10:40

but also have boundaries with us.

10:43

And if that need isn't met,

10:45

if we as a child have

10:47

to please... in order to interrupt chaos

10:49

or stop chaos or make a parent

10:51

love us or we're prerentified at a

10:54

young age like we have to take

10:56

care of a parent anyway or we're

10:58

the older sibling and have to take

11:00

care of others or we realize dad

11:02

gives us attention if we're good and

11:05

we get good grades or if we're

11:07

yelled at if we have big emotions

11:09

and big feelings or we want something

11:11

we miss out on like integrating into

11:13

our cells that it's okay for me

11:16

to have needs and people meet my

11:18

needs. And for so many people, that

11:20

does not happen in childhood

11:22

for a variety of reasons

11:25

that I just listed. And

11:27

it's an imprint in our

11:29

nervous system and our subconscious.

11:31

And so we overcompensate and

11:33

develop basically a survival strategy

11:35

because we need to belong.

11:37

basic survival need. Like if we

11:39

go way back to when we lived

11:42

in tribes, if we didn't have a

11:44

tribe, if we didn't have a system

11:46

to live in, we would die. And

11:48

so it's still encoded in us that

11:50

I need others to survive. And so

11:53

we strategize from a very young age,

11:55

how do I belong, how do I

11:57

fit in? And especially with our parents.

12:00

How do I not make them

12:02

mad? How do I get their

12:04

attention? And there's this kind of

12:06

whole good girl thing and girls

12:08

are rewarded when they're good. And

12:10

so it kind of goes in,

12:12

well, if I'm good and if

12:14

I take care of others, my

12:16

parents don't fight as much, my

12:18

mom's nice to me, my dad

12:20

gives me attention, I'm validated on

12:23

non-non, so it becomes an identity.

12:25

And when we are out of

12:27

sync with what we feel like

12:29

is an identity, it does feel

12:31

shameful because it feels so wrong.

12:33

Because we're going against a survival

12:35

strategy. And so what I like

12:37

to... help women do is reframe

12:39

it because it takes a while

12:41

to unravel this especially if this

12:43

is an imprint at two years

12:46

old three years old five years

12:48

old ten years old it takes

12:50

some time to get to the

12:52

stage where you don't feel selfish

12:54

So I like to use the

12:56

words it's self-honoring. Like I'm making

12:58

this self-honoring choice and the distinction

13:00

between selfish and self-honoring because from

13:02

where I sit, Kathy, people-pleasing actually

13:04

is way more selfish than not

13:06

because when we're people-pleasing and taking

13:08

care of others, we're actually looking

13:11

out for ourselves. We don't want

13:13

to make somebody mad. We don't

13:15

want to get in trouble. Like

13:17

we don't want to sit with

13:19

the confrontation or the discomfort of

13:21

that. So if you can go,

13:23

actually what I'm doing is more

13:25

selfish than self-honoring, I'm going to

13:27

sit over to that self-honoring and

13:29

then also doing the inner child

13:31

and the nervous system work of

13:34

when we set a boundary. inside

13:36

ourselves or a limit with others,

13:38

there's going to be a part

13:40

of us that gets activated and

13:42

kind of panics a little bit

13:44

because subconsciously we fear we're going

13:46

to get in trouble, lose connection,

13:48

all that stuff. And so we've

13:50

got to, you know, I love

13:52

to put hand on the heart,

13:54

hand on the belly and reassure

13:57

that little one inside, it's okay.

13:59

I got you. You deserve to

14:01

have your needs met. Is there

14:03

anything else you need? and foremost

14:05

so that we don't build resentment

14:07

and deplete ourselves. Everything you just

14:09

said is so conscientious and really

14:11

profound. And I relate so much.

14:13

I was definitely a parentified child.

14:15

I was definitely taking care of

14:17

my parents who needed at that

14:20

point me to do that. And

14:22

it is really powerful to sit

14:24

with the fact that this feeling

14:26

of being selfish, it's not coming

14:28

from the alignment with our truth.

14:30

It's coming from a disordered sort

14:32

of way that we attach to

14:34

our environment and it's so embedded.

14:36

And as you said it, I

14:38

was like, so it's really naming

14:40

how it does feel inside of

14:43

me. It's like, it's like you

14:45

found that spot, that like unconscious

14:47

place and that really is it.

14:49

And I was thinking about when

14:51

you were sharing, I think that

14:53

that's really. very wise that being

14:55

a people pleaser is actually the

14:57

opposite of being really generous actually

14:59

because it's really manipulative because you're

15:01

really trying to control the environment

15:03

and it makes me think of

15:06

the idea of the most lovely

15:08

thing you can gift to another

15:10

person which is what everybody is

15:12

looking for in themselves even is

15:14

the feeling of wholeness and so

15:16

if you are the walking embodiment

15:18

of whatever feels like wholeness for

15:20

you, everyone around you feels lighter

15:22

just being around you. Like, it

15:24

feels safe to other people when

15:26

they know you're okay and you

15:29

know what your boundary is and

15:31

you're not trying to get something

15:33

from them. All right, before we

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thank you. I want to ask

17:17

you about how it specifically affects

17:19

our love life because I know

17:21

that the work you do in

17:23

this program be the Queen, but

17:26

also just in your own life.

17:28

All of this. Not only. Not

17:30

only. didn't set you free, but

17:32

it became the catalyst for what

17:34

allowed you to bring in really

17:36

healthy love into your life. Help

17:38

us make the connection of why

17:40

the relationship romantically that we want

17:42

kind of hinges upon what you

17:44

just said. Because it definitely doesn't

17:46

seem like that. It seems like

17:49

what we need to do is

17:51

take better. online dating photos or

17:53

what we needed to do was

17:55

move to a better location or

17:57

what we'd like change the age

17:59

range that we're looking for, but

18:01

it seems like you've come up

18:03

with a different conclusion. Or my

18:05

favorite. when I just need to

18:07

love myself more, which that's not

18:09

it either. So, oh my gosh,

18:12

so much to say here. As

18:14

you know and as everybody listening

18:16

probably knows, in our romantic life,

18:18

we are seeking what we didn't

18:20

get in childhood, like bottom line.

18:22

So if, let's say we had

18:24

a dad. He was unavailable in

18:26

some way. Either he abandoned us

18:28

or he was emotionally unavailable. Let's

18:30

just let's zero in on emotionally

18:32

unavailable because that's a really common

18:35

one. We will tend to attract

18:37

and be attracted to men like

18:39

that. Because subconsciously the inner child

18:41

is like, I didn't get this

18:43

key need met from my father.

18:45

Maybe this guy that looks like

18:47

him, not physically but energetically, will

18:49

give me that. And it doesn't,

18:51

it's not just with dad, it

18:53

can happen with mom as well.

18:55

You know, maybe mom was an

18:58

addict and you were always, you

19:00

were in a codependent relationship with

19:02

her and then, what do you

19:04

end up attracting? Someone with addictive

19:06

traits or full on addiction. Because

19:08

unmet childhood needs, they don't just

19:10

go away. I hate, hate the

19:12

same time heals all wounds because

19:14

it doesn't. It just buries them

19:16

deeper. And so if I were

19:18

to sum up like personal development

19:21

in one phrase, it would be

19:23

reparenting. Like really reparenting ourselves because

19:25

the places we don't take ownership

19:27

of and reparent inside ourselves, we

19:29

will look to a romantic partner

19:31

to do. Because let's face it,

19:33

we come in and our most

19:35

intimate relationship is with our parents

19:37

or parent, whoever is there. Then

19:39

we project that onto intimate relationships

19:41

and our dating life. And if

19:44

we don't go back and do

19:46

the work on our childhood, we

19:48

will continue to play that out,

19:50

which is why you end up

19:52

kind of in the same relationship

19:54

with a different face over and

19:56

over and over again. So let's

19:58

use the example of people pleaser

20:00

since we were unpacking that. So

20:02

if you are a pleaser, you

20:04

probably are a chameleon as well,

20:07

and you're probably highly adaptive. And

20:09

being adaptive is actually a feminine

20:11

superpower. However, when we're adaptive while

20:13

sacrificing our own authenticity, then we're

20:15

in the shadow of that superpower,

20:17

right? And so so many women...

20:19

are adaptive, they are chameleons,

20:21

they will be who they think

20:23

they need to be in order

20:25

to get the relationship. And so

20:27

how that can look in relationship

20:30

is in the beginning like not

20:32

really speaking up and it can

20:34

be super super subtle. Like you

20:36

can be on a date and

20:38

let's just say the man is like

20:40

kind of not that nice to the

20:42

server and instead of saying

20:44

something you just let it go.

20:47

And it was subtle, it wasn't

20:49

that bad, and you kind of

20:51

talk yourself out of your own

20:53

truth. And that is a direct

20:56

route to ending up miserable in

20:58

a relationship. And you know, the

21:00

other thing we do is we

21:03

have so many walls, protective walls,

21:05

that we put up in front

21:07

of us. And for a lot

21:10

of especially high achieving women, this

21:12

appears masculine. So many

21:14

women, single women listening, one of the things

21:17

you might be told by people is you're

21:19

too much in your masculine or you're too

21:21

intimidating. And I seriously, that makes me want

21:23

to throw up because it's so far from

21:25

the truth. You're not too much in your

21:28

masculine. You're in hypervigilance. you're in

21:30

an adaptive strategy because your nervous

21:33

system is probably fried. You've been

21:35

out of sync with your femininity

21:37

and your authenticity and you've had

21:40

to adapt and do and kind

21:42

of put all these protective mass

21:44

and walls. It's not your masculine.

21:47

Your healthy masculine is directive and

21:49

decisive and we need that, but

21:51

most women aren't too much in

21:54

their masculine. They're in hypervigilance. And

21:56

so when we have these kind

21:58

of unmet needs, and this dysregulated

22:00

nervous system, and these subconscious desires from

22:03

our inner child, it's our inner child

22:05

that's doing the picking. Like I look

22:07

back to my 30s, which were

22:09

mostly single, and if I lined every

22:12

man up I dated, I didn't have

22:14

a type. They all look different. However,

22:16

I could go, oh, my eight-year-old picked

22:19

that one, my 14-year-old picked that one,

22:21

my 22-year-old picked that one, we're constantly

22:23

like learning. through relationships. And if we

22:26

want to get to what I

22:28

call a side-by-side relationship, which is when

22:30

two people are standing facing the same

22:32

direction, towards their vision and values, rather

22:35

than looking at each other, being like,

22:37

are you going to meet my needs?

22:39

Are you going to do this? Are

22:42

you going to rescue me? Are you

22:44

going to take care of me?

22:46

Are you going to cheat on me?

22:48

Like there's so much like expectation and

22:51

fear that's running. We can really, really

22:53

stand side-by-by-side. And when we like extricate

22:56

ourselves from that people please our thing

22:58

and we come into like this is

23:00

who I am and I define confidence

23:03

as radical self-acceptance, like I don't think

23:05

women need to like go do more

23:07

self-love courses in order to attract

23:09

a man in their life, it's like

23:12

radically accepting who you are and taking

23:14

100% responsibility for it and not looking

23:16

consciously or subconsciously for someone to come

23:19

and save you. I mean, it's so

23:21

good and I can't wait till your

23:23

next book comes out because, you know,

23:26

you have many books in there

23:28

in this. I know you've written many

23:30

books, but like this whole little sermon

23:32

you just gave is really so powerful.

23:35

I'm going to say something that is

23:37

like really kind of like sort of

23:39

bringing up the beehive, you know, making

23:42

up the dirt, but So many women

23:44

I was thinking about this the

23:46

other day, I was taking a shower

23:48

and I was like 45, and so

23:51

many people in my life right now

23:53

are contemplating divorce. you know, more or

23:55

less, you're getting married in your late

23:58

20s, early 30s, I was 30 when

24:00

I got married, and now at 45,

24:02

I have been growing and evolving,

24:04

right? And my husband is my best

24:07

friend. He was my next neighbor and

24:09

he was my best friend before we

24:11

started dating, so we're very blessed because

24:14

we make each other laugh. He's very

24:16

kind, very loyal, very lovely. We get

24:18

along really well and we have all

24:21

the same kind of. like deep

24:23

core values in the world. However, as

24:25

it goes in most relationships, while I

24:27

was continuing to like really look within

24:30

and really start to like expand, I

24:32

started to see that he was telling

24:34

jokes all the time because he was

24:37

not wanting to be in his emotions,

24:39

which I was emotionally unavailable for really

24:41

horrible reasons. He's emotionally on the phone,

24:44

like it was a nicer exterior,

24:46

quite fun. And then my mom was

24:48

super codependent dependent. and you know very

24:50

depressed and suicidal which thank God he's

24:53

not but he had a widow as

24:55

a mother and so he's independent and

24:57

resents me in my power because he

25:00

gives away all his power so it's

25:02

a really interesting dance and I've

25:04

just come to really like love him

25:06

and walk beside him and I said

25:09

to him in the summer I was

25:11

like let's be a soul family and

25:13

let's separate from our marriage but keep

25:16

our family together right now while you

25:18

and I both continue to explore. what

25:20

feels like the next evolution of

25:22

us as people. And it's been really

25:25

beautiful and because we have this really

25:27

good kindness to each other, somehow for

25:29

us that works as like a next

25:32

level of what could be. For so

25:34

many women I talk to, they get

25:36

to this place where they're like, do

25:39

I need to just go find

25:41

another human? Is there a way for

25:43

me in this relationship that now 15

25:45

years in, let's face it, there's codependency,

25:48

there's the setup? unconscious agreements, right? And

25:50

it's just uncanny how many people in

25:52

my life right now, like the romantic

25:55

period has faded, and they are. like

25:57

what's the next 15 years going

25:59

to look like right and yeah my

26:01

parents are not divorced when they were

26:04

in their mid 40s and I was

26:06

like how could they have done that

26:08

but now I mean they had a

26:11

horrendous abusive terrible meeting they thank God

26:13

they got divorced we're not in that

26:15

situation thank God but I think that

26:18

it's one thing to have this conversation

26:20

with single women and I think

26:22

that that's helpful I also think that

26:24

married people right now it's so much

26:27

more common. to make the divorce decision.

26:29

And I'm not halting anybody for that.

26:31

I just find really curious and interesting.

26:34

And like, what do all these people

26:36

do with the inconvenient truth that starts

26:38

to come up about state shows

26:40

in their 20s and 30s? And what

26:43

do you do with it now? Yeah.

26:45

Well, first of all, thank you for

26:47

sharing all that. It's so I think

26:50

it's when we can share that intimately

26:52

and that vulnerability people really relate and

26:54

really, really, really get it. And I

26:57

was you in my first marriage.

26:59

I was younger, I got married at

27:01

28 and divorced at around 31 for,

27:03

you know, a lot of the reasons

27:06

around growth. And I hear the same

27:08

thing with single women. Like, where are

27:10

the conscious men? Where are the women?

27:13

Where are the women that men that

27:15

are going to do the work?

27:17

And they're out there. But I want

27:19

to speak to the marriage and I

27:22

want to speak to the divorce for

27:24

a moment because oftentimes when we're in

27:26

that place, it's kind of black and

27:29

white either-and-white either-and-white either-white either-white either- either-

27:31

either- either- either- either- either- either- either-

27:33

or- like, like, like, like, like,

27:35

like, like, like, like, or I go.

27:38

And for a lot of women, there's

27:40

kind of the fantasy of someone new

27:42

and what a relationship could look like.

27:45

And when we're in that, we're kind

27:47

of in the same problem that we're

27:49

trying to get out of because we

27:52

are thinking of ourselves relationally and what

27:54

life could be like, could it be

27:56

better? Could the grass be greener?

27:58

versus really looking at our sole curriculum

28:01

and focusing only on our own growth.

28:03

So I want to speak to something,

28:05

I'm going to tie it back. I

28:08

want to speak to the feminine superpower

28:10

of tapping into the archetype of the

28:12

muse because I think it's one of

28:15

the most underrated, unspoken about things,

28:17

especially in our boss babe culture. So

28:19

again, I'm going to tie this back

28:21

but I'm going to go another direction

28:24

for a moment. So when I called

28:26

in my husband, my husband now, so

28:28

I've engaged three times, married twice, divorced

28:31

once, one broken engagement in my 20s.

28:33

I... really surrendered my list because

28:35

I realize that having my list of

28:37

my non-negotiables was not surrender. It was

28:40

an aspect of control and I wasn't

28:42

trusting God. It's sort of like ordering

28:44

something at a restaurant and then following

28:47

the server into the kitchen to make

28:49

sure they got it right. You know,

28:51

so I burned my list and

28:53

I said God and we teach us

28:56

in our program how to do this.

28:58

I'm like, God, you pick, like my

29:00

sole partner because I'm still really attached

29:03

to my non-negotiables. When I met Steph,

29:05

I was really excited and he ticked

29:08

so many boxes and we were introduced

29:10

and we talked only on WhatsApp

29:12

for three months and then when we

29:14

met in person, it was amazing, there

29:17

was good chemistry but healthy chemistry, like

29:19

not fireworks, addictive chemistry. And then we

29:21

sat down and we started talking about

29:24

money. And one of the things on

29:26

the list that I burned was must

29:28

make at least as much as I

29:31

did or more. And I found out

29:33

not only did he make less,

29:35

like hardly anything, he was nearly 100K

29:37

in debt. And I just remember feeling

29:40

like I was going to throw up.

29:42

But in my body, my mind was

29:44

like, no, no, no, run, but my

29:47

body said stay. My heart said stay.

29:49

And what I had to feel into

29:51

you was, is this a situational

29:53

thing for him? Or is this just

29:56

who he is? Right? Like is this

29:58

a... in life or this is who

30:00

he is. And what I saw and

30:03

getting to know him was passion, work

30:05

ethic, dedication, not looking for a free

30:07

lunch, not all over the place. Like

30:10

he had a really strong masculine

30:12

qualities. And so I was like, I

30:14

wonder if I could be amused because

30:16

he's a coach as well and Kathy like

30:18

I could have jumped in and built

30:21

his business. It would have been easy-peezy

30:23

for me. I could have told

30:25

him exactly what to do. And I

30:27

was like, no, like I cannot

30:30

do that. That's co-dependence. It is.

30:32

And control and not feminine. And

30:34

like, and I really want to

30:36

be in the embodied feminine in

30:38

this. And so I was like, I

30:40

am just going to like take care

30:42

of me and love him and believe

30:45

in him. And not in like a

30:47

1950s, like, let me cook you dinner

30:49

and tell you you're awesome. But I'm

30:51

just really going to believe in him.

30:53

I'm not going to let my fear.

30:55

about where he is in his life

30:57

on this thing and finances are a

31:00

big thing, impact how I see him.

31:02

And I really stepped into the energetic

31:04

of being amused, like really being empowered

31:06

in my feminine, loving, but also calling

31:08

forward and forward and not taking care

31:10

of and not rescuing and not panicking. And

31:13

within a year, he was completely out of

31:15

debt. Within two years, he met where I

31:17

was and within three years he was making

31:19

more than me so much so that I

31:22

could really take two years off when we

31:24

had a daughter. So I share this

31:26

story because for women in

31:28

that place of being really

31:30

kind of awakened and you're

31:33

feeling not met by your partner,

31:35

I really hear you and it's

31:37

super super common. But there's

31:39

some things I see women

31:41

do in that situation that don't

31:44

get you what you want. One

31:46

is trying to enroll your partner.

31:48

Read this book, go to this

31:50

therapy, come to this workshop, like

31:53

trying to change them. That's not

31:55

amused. That's control. The other thing,

31:58

as I mentioned earlier, is the

32:00

thinking life would be so better

32:02

if I was with someone else.

32:04

What my invitation is, is can

32:06

you step into being that muse?

32:08

Can you be so embodied in

32:10

who you are and what matters

32:12

to you and your personal and

32:14

spiritual and emotional growth that he

32:16

either is inspired by that and

32:18

meets you or the relationship reaches

32:20

its expiration date? And you're not

32:22

like jumping into someone else or

32:24

something else that you think is

32:26

better because often when we're in

32:28

relationship, like we kind of only

32:30

know life, like in relationship. But

32:32

if you can just like really

32:34

be in that, this is who

32:36

I am and it's okay if

32:38

I don't know how this is

32:40

gonna go and not try to

32:42

control any aspect of it, either

32:44

finding someone new or changing who

32:46

you're with. I have seen. Many

32:48

times, not always, but many times,

32:50

I have seen the man step

32:52

up. And I think for women,

32:54

if we can step more into

32:56

that muse and call men forward,

32:58

not by controlling, not by suggesting,

33:00

not by being their therapist or

33:02

their coach, but by being that

33:04

muse, by really standing in it

33:06

and being the invitation and the

33:08

inspiration, if it's going to change

33:10

that's how. First of all, I

33:13

think that's beautiful. And I... I

33:15

have seen that work. I can

33:17

think of a very few handful

33:19

of times where I did that

33:21

well, and I can also think

33:23

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33:25

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34:45

to give my example, which sometimes

34:47

what is personal feels universal, so

34:49

I do think... Absolutely. I think

34:51

what I'm going to say is

34:53

specific to my husband, but I

34:55

think that there's a bigger theme

34:57

at play for men in general.

34:59

My husband didn't have a father

35:01

because his father died when he

35:03

was a kid and they had

35:05

no money and he had a

35:07

very overbearing very loving but very

35:09

smothering controlling mom and they had

35:12

no money and they lived in

35:14

this little apartment and no father

35:16

right his father died unexpectedly of

35:18

heart issues when he was a

35:20

little boy and that for lots

35:22

of reasons, it didn't give him

35:24

confidence, let's just say that. Yeah.

35:26

They didn't have a male role

35:28

model and he had a very

35:30

overbearing like fearful mother who then

35:32

that feels very emasculating I think

35:34

to avoid growing up in that

35:36

house. Of course. And what I

35:38

see as I zoom out is

35:40

in the more recent, you know,

35:42

chunk of years, chunk of decades,

35:44

I think men lost confidence. Oh

35:46

for sure. So I think that

35:48

what's interesting is while women have

35:50

had more of a renaissance, right,

35:52

there's there's more of a calling

35:54

forward, which is really so cool,

35:56

because it's it really the pension

35:58

always swings. little too far, right?

36:00

And women go a little bit

36:02

too much into their over functioning,

36:04

but then in the end, there

36:06

is, there's really a beauty to

36:08

what will hopefully become balance, like

36:10

for my three daughters, you know,

36:12

in the 80s, women were shoulder

36:14

pads to literally make themselves happy.

36:16

Right. It's like we're already finding

36:18

our way back to maybe a

36:20

more middle balanced place. But I

36:22

think along the way, there's ways

36:24

in which men started to lose

36:26

their sense of what they do

36:28

get to do in women. can

36:30

meet a lot of their needs

36:32

outside of that relationship. And my

36:34

mom says that when she used

36:36

to go to a bookstore, there

36:38

was no self-development section. It was

36:40

like fiction, non-fiction, right? And non-fiction

36:42

was like books about science and

36:44

tomatoes. You know, now it's like

36:46

everyone's working on themselves. And so

36:48

women tend to flock to that

36:50

kind of work. They can also

36:52

make money. They can also raise

36:54

children. It's like there's so much

36:56

they can do. And then there

36:58

is this shift in a place

37:00

where men maybe don't feel that

37:02

sense of confidence. And what I've

37:04

realized is that definitely takes a

37:06

toll on his sense of himself.

37:08

And he was a vice president

37:11

of a company for a long

37:13

time and the company got bought

37:15

and merged with a different company.

37:17

So he got a nice severance.

37:19

And then that was the end

37:21

of his job. And that was

37:23

five. Right. And because I've been

37:25

doing what I've been doing. It's

37:27

not really a need for him

37:29

to work, but I think it's

37:31

it's work is not really about

37:33

work. It's about showing up every

37:35

day with creativity and passion and

37:37

that is a kind of like

37:39

a human thing that feels good

37:41

in general and especially I think

37:43

for men. So I think there's

37:45

a level at which regardless of

37:47

the circumstances, I think. There's so

37:49

much you can do to be

37:51

amused and then there is a

37:53

place where men have to decide

37:55

to choose to do whatever the

37:57

repair is on their own, five-year-old

37:59

that needs. to regain his confidence.

38:01

Oh, a lot of women listening

38:03

are probably nodding their head like

38:05

for whatever their circumstances. Their husband

38:07

is just not, you know, he's

38:09

on his phone a lot. He's

38:11

not really engaged as much as

38:13

he should be, would really want

38:15

to be in his best self.

38:17

And I think a lot of

38:19

women start to feel like they

38:21

tune out and then they get

38:23

all their fulfillment from their friends,

38:25

their kids and their work. Yeah,

38:27

well a massive thing too about

38:29

this this news energy like calling

38:31

a man forward. It's definitely has

38:33

boundaries and discernment and I love

38:35

what you're saying about men because

38:37

you know I feel like from

38:39

talking to my husband and we

38:41

teach our Be the Queen program

38:43

together because I wanted that masculine

38:45

perspective because no matter how many

38:47

men I coach I'm still not

38:49

a man right that's not my

38:51

experience in the world. But you

38:53

hit on some core things men

38:55

need to feel needed. They need

38:57

to feel purposeful. And they need

38:59

to feel respected. And so many

39:01

men I've coached and spoken to

39:03

have felt like my wife or

39:05

my partner doesn't really even need

39:07

me. Like I don't feel needed

39:09

or I don't feel purposeful. And

39:12

that is a huge issue for

39:14

a man. And no matter what,

39:16

like we can't be their mother,

39:18

we can't be their coach. And

39:20

it is not sexy if a

39:22

man's not doing his work. like

39:24

if he's not taking care of

39:26

like what he needs to take

39:28

care of in the world. So

39:30

I stand with you and really

39:32

saying to women, yes, have your

39:34

boundaries, but have it come from

39:36

a place of not making him

39:38

wrong, right? And not making yourself

39:40

the victim. And have it really

39:42

come from a place of like

39:44

non attachment because we can often

39:46

see so clearly what someone needs

39:48

to do. But one of my

39:50

teachers said to me when I

39:52

was thinking of divorcing my husband,

39:54

my first husband, you don't walk

39:56

into a nursery and wake up

39:58

sleeping babies. People wake up. and

40:00

do the work when they're

40:02

ready. You know, and you can

40:04

either wait and see, or you

40:06

can say, you know what, like, this

40:09

is where I am, this is where

40:11

you are, and like, I love you,

40:13

and conscious on couple, or

40:16

whatever you decide to do,

40:18

be a soul family. I

40:20

just really want to be a

40:22

voice for women to not

40:24

try to change someone. not

40:26

hang on longer expecting them

40:28

to change, to really be in

40:30

the embodiment of what you want,

40:32

be that invitation, give it some

40:34

space to see if they come

40:36

forward, but if they're not coming

40:38

to the party, then you have

40:41

decisions to make. And I

40:43

want to speak to the kids thing

40:45

because I see so many women stay

40:47

in marriages for the kids. I have

40:49

been coaching and counseling people for

40:51

20 years, and I have not seen

40:53

a profound impact of... kids

40:56

who had divorced parents versus

40:58

kids who had parents that were

41:00

in a not great marriage,

41:02

often kids who had divorced

41:04

parents and the divorced parents

41:06

went on to be happy and

41:08

more fulfilled, thrive and end

41:11

up better in adulthood and better

41:13

relationally than kids who grew up

41:15

in a marriage that wasn't great.

41:18

you know, that wasn't happy, who like

41:20

knew their parents were staying together for

41:22

the kids. So for anyone that's having

41:24

guilt over like, I can't leave, I

41:27

have to say for my family, we're

41:29

back in the people-pleaser thing, we're back

41:31

in the co-dependent thing, and really the

41:34

best thing that you can do for

41:36

your kids is teach them truth and

41:38

love, go together, you know, love without

41:40

truth, is just an attack. And so

41:42

when we can teach them the truth

41:44

and love go together and there's love

41:47

here and this is the truth and

41:49

really help them understand like it has

41:51

nothing to do with them and it's

41:53

not their fault at all. If you

41:55

move on to be a happier healthier

41:58

mentally well human, that's better than... together

42:00

for the kids. Yeah, I think I

42:02

may have mentioned this to you the

42:04

other day when we were talking,

42:06

but I love this idea that

42:08

Mark Grove said to me recently,

42:10

which is that liberation is never

42:12

a one-way street. Tell the truth

42:14

and you're loving. Who does the other

42:16

person get to become? What liberation is

42:19

there to them? And so it really

42:21

is beautiful. And I think a lot

42:23

of times it is black and white

42:25

where people either decide to stay in

42:28

an unconscious pattern. or leave versus

42:30

maybe there's a way to start telling

42:32

the truth. And what we're doing right

42:35

now that's working for us is just

42:37

putting a big pause button on

42:39

whatever is next. And the beauty of

42:41

it is, and I will share since

42:44

I've shared so many other parts of

42:46

it, about two months into me

42:48

making this declaration on his

42:50

own, my husband started seeing

42:52

this incredible somatic healer who's

42:54

in India, who's so gentle

42:56

and brilliant and brilliant. and

42:58

really is helping him to

43:01

do work and to start to,

43:03

and that was the first time it

43:05

didn't come from me, right? And so

43:07

he's huge. And so he's been like,

43:09

you know, I really respect this sort

43:11

of pause and my request is that

43:13

you give it more time and hang

43:15

in there and see what can happen while

43:17

I'm, you know, and it's, it really is

43:19

a gift to him and to the kids

43:22

no matter what, and to all of us,

43:24

right? So I just think these conversations. There

43:26

are the kinds of conversations

43:28

that we often avoid and yet,

43:31

if you're seeing a friend, like I

43:33

was at a friend's, kids bought Missva

43:35

the other night, and I'm talking in

43:37

three or four of my

43:39

female friends, and four questions

43:42

deep, everybody's in a funky spot,

43:44

and nobody knows where to

43:46

put that conversation because there's

43:48

often not room. But the work

43:51

do and these kinds of

43:53

conversations make it feel more normal.

43:55

You're not alone. And maybe

43:58

instead of like making a. all

44:00

or nothing. It's like, what's the next

44:02

right step for you to love and

44:04

tell the truth? And where can you

44:06

go? Right. The next place on the

44:08

chess board. Yeah. My husband and I

44:10

coach couples together and we always when

44:13

we coach couples, we always do couple

44:15

session and then we do individual work

44:17

with each of the people too because

44:19

You can do as much couple stuff

44:21

as you want, but if you don't

44:23

work on your own individual stuff, like

44:25

the relationship doesn't change. And I love

44:28

that you're talking about the pause because

44:30

one of the things that's so important

44:32

in relationships is to not like battle

44:34

for certainty. You know, we battle for

44:36

certainty, we battle to be right, we

44:38

subconsciously battle to keep ourselves safe. And

44:41

true intimacy is exactly what you're saying.

44:43

Like you, the conversations you're having with

44:45

your husband and that agreement to pause

44:47

and be in the gray, like be

44:49

in that, I don't know, are we

44:51

going to come back together as lovers

44:53

and husband and wife? Are we going

44:56

to, like, what's our family going to

44:58

look like to be in that in-between?

45:00

Is like... So important and for single

45:02

women too like that in between of

45:04

like when in between the last relationship

45:06

and the relationship you're in that place

45:08

of uncertainty It can be really uncomfortable

45:11

because the mind wants to know the

45:13

mind wants to plan But we can

45:15

be in that space and we really

45:17

encourage couples we coach to be in

45:19

that space because a lot of times

45:21

they come in to counts to coaching

45:23

with us like we need to know

45:26

if we're staying together or not And

45:28

we're like, we actually don't care. Either

45:30

way, like, and that's not, that's not

45:32

the question that we're asking. Like, we

45:34

invite you to be in the uncertainty

45:36

and be in the gray and unpack

45:39

this. We're clear you need to divorce

45:41

this current version of the relationship. I

45:43

remember talking to Esther Perel one time

45:45

and was sitting next door to dinner

45:47

and she said, I've been married three

45:49

times to the same person. And I

45:51

said I love that. I love that

45:54

you've had three marriages to the same

45:56

person and especially for longer term marriages.

45:58

Like if you haven't been divorced a

46:00

couple times. in your marriage and like

46:02

created something new, you're going to be

46:04

feeling that pinch because you're different people

46:06

than when you got married. And so

46:09

being willing to like end the old

46:11

so that we can recreate the new

46:13

or recreate whatever coming, you don't have

46:15

access to clarity about that unless you're

46:17

willing to be in the uncertainty. I

46:19

forget love that and I had a

46:21

friend say that to us recently and

46:24

she said it because we've had five

46:26

marriages in this relationship like... What a

46:28

healthy, cool invitation for everyone. Like, what

46:30

do you get to break up with

46:32

in your current relationship to make your

46:34

relationship better? Okay, I have a few

46:37

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subscriber to receive free I want to

47:54

ask you just as it relates to

47:56

over functioning at work achieving not now

47:58

in our relationships, but in work you

48:00

said earlier like people pleasing at some

48:02

point you came around to like it's

48:05

okay if people are unhappy and I

48:07

think that a business owner as a

48:09

coach as a brand as whatever you

48:11

do need to have a relationship at

48:13

scale right it's it's a lot of

48:15

relationships basically and if you have this

48:18

tendency to not set boundaries then it

48:20

really could be costing you quite a

48:22

bit of peace and quite a bit

48:24

of success in a lot of ways

48:26

because as a business owner as a

48:28

coach as a brand as whatever you

48:30

do need to have some level of

48:33

being okay with having a boundary and

48:35

not being liked and. I'm curious what

48:37

you would say to women as it

48:39

relates to their business, how to fill

48:41

up their own cup. Well, one of

48:43

the first questions I'd asked myself is,

48:45

what am I trying to get by

48:48

having a successful business? So, yes, serving

48:50

people, living your passion, all of that.

48:52

But are there any unhealthy motivators? Are

48:54

you trying to get acceptance? Like I

48:56

went and worked in Hollywood and was

48:58

the youngest ever female agent just worked

49:00

my butt off because I wasn't popular

49:03

in school and Hollywood was the adult

49:05

version of the popular crowd and I

49:07

thought if I could prove myself there

49:09

then this huge hole and void inside

49:11

of me would be taken care of.

49:13

It wasn't. That was internal work I

49:16

had to do but so many of

49:18

us that are highly driven. and highly

49:20

motivated. There's the really healthy aspect, wanting

49:22

to serve, being in our purpose, living

49:24

out our authenticity, and then there's the

49:26

unhealthy motivation of, I'm going to improve

49:28

myself, this is going to make me

49:31

belong, I don't like not having control,

49:33

so I really need to be the

49:35

boss, I only am nice to myself.

49:37

if I achieve, like really consider what

49:39

is the unhealthy parts that motivate you.

49:41

And we gotta deal with those parts.

49:43

We gotta deal with those parts because

49:46

if you have any of that driving

49:48

you, you're gonna be cloudy in how

49:50

you lead. And cloudy in how you

49:52

lead can look a variety of different

49:54

ways. It can look like being a

49:56

shitty leader, having people not respect you

49:58

and being me and trying to be

50:01

controlling. Or it can be. overcompensating and

50:03

like you know not firing people that

50:05

need to be fired not having firm

50:07

boundaries not being clear and creating agreements

50:09

but having a lot of expectations and

50:11

then being the like over caretaker and

50:14

micromanaging this is something I see with

50:16

high achieving women in leadership the micromanaging

50:18

is off the charts and we think

50:20

it's just being a good leader and

50:22

like invested in our business but really

50:24

it's a trust issue. Do we trust

50:26

like other people and so many high-functioning

50:29

high-achieving boss baby women? Have the whole

50:31

like if I want to get it

50:33

done right I need to do it

50:35

myself and Again, that's like a fast

50:37

track to depletion and that's not how

50:39

we empower other people at all and

50:41

then they'll like being afraid to make

50:44

people mad or hurt feelings or whatever

50:46

then we don't have truth in love

50:48

paired together and Are you really helping

50:50

someone on your team grow if you

50:52

enable them? It's sort of like a

50:54

child, like if you do everything for

50:57

them, they're going to be so ill-equipped

50:59

when they get to middle school because

51:01

they're not going to know how to

51:03

do anything. Same thing with kids if

51:05

you don't have boundaries with your kids,

51:07

they're not going to respect you. and

51:09

they're not going to be able to

51:12

function well in the world. And so

51:14

when we over this, I see so

51:16

many women do this, they over mother

51:18

employees in the kind of like taking

51:20

care of codependent instead of like really

51:22

calling people forward and bringing the best.

51:24

out of them. And like again, it's

51:27

okay if people are upset. And one

51:29

of the things I love to remind

51:31

women in leadership is it's the both

51:33

and. Like you can both really praise

51:35

what someone's doing really well and give

51:37

them feedback of what needs to change.

51:39

Yeah. I think one thing that also

51:42

shows up, everything you just said is

51:44

right on and also in the clients

51:46

you call forward. Right? Whether it's customers,

51:48

right, or whether it's clients, depending on

51:50

whether you offer a brand of a

51:52

service or a product or whatever you

51:55

do, it's just fascinating how the messaging

51:57

can either call forward someone who's really

51:59

needy or you can call over somebody

52:01

who is empowered and therefore has autonomy

52:03

for the decisions they make. And it's

52:05

also unconscious, but we get to decide

52:07

who we're talking to and who we're

52:10

talking to and who we're not. We

52:12

get to qualify who we're really wanting

52:14

to work with and who we're not.

52:16

And similarly, yes, in our team, the

52:18

way that we are running our team,

52:20

we can ask for what we need

52:22

and we don't have to constantly worry.

52:25

I guess I've heard that said that

52:27

you get to decide if you want

52:29

to be liked or respected. And then

52:31

we'll, they'll choose being liked over being

52:33

respected and there is a way to

52:35

be both, you know. Absolutely. Absolutely. I'm

52:37

so glad you brought the client thing

52:40

because I imagine a lot of coaches

52:42

are listening and things I love to

52:44

do as train coaches, especially women coaches.

52:46

And I see so often this belief

52:48

that you kind of have to take

52:50

what you get, especially when you're starting

52:53

out. Right. And get like high maintenance,

52:55

needy, victimy clients. and just think that

52:57

they have to take them because that's

52:59

you know they need the money or

53:01

they're just starting their coaching practice or

53:03

they can help them and it's like

53:05

if you start settling for the kind

53:08

of client you want because of money

53:10

you're out of integrity as a coach

53:12

because if you're not like feeling a

53:14

resonance with them as their coach. And

53:16

every time you see a message from

53:18

them, you're like, oh God. Then you're

53:20

really not serving them. It's just transactional.

53:23

You just want the money. And so

53:25

much of this comes down to a

53:27

self-worth thing of thinking that I have

53:29

to settle for what I can get,

53:31

especially when I'm just starting out. And

53:33

that does not have to be true

53:35

in any way, shape or form. We

53:38

can be really clear about the clients

53:40

we want to call in, but you

53:42

know, a no to something is a

53:44

yes to something else. And again, we

53:46

have to sit in that place of

53:48

uncertainty of like saying no, saying no,

53:51

this is dating too. Say no, not

53:53

quite, not it until we really start

53:55

coming into alignment and attracting what we

53:57

actually want. Really fascinating because at the

53:59

core of this conversation so much of

54:01

it comes down to the tendency to

54:03

people please and not be truthful because

54:06

it keeps us feeling safe. Absolutely. Not

54:08

just through line and it really comes

54:10

down to no longer gas lighting yourself.

54:12

For what you know to be true

54:14

and being okay with whatever. people decide

54:16

to do with your truth. And the

54:18

more you live that way, it's very

54:21

liberating. It feels better than any kind

54:23

of abundance. It's the abundance of like

54:25

being in alignment and having enough wholeness

54:27

that you're okay with how people receive

54:29

you and you don't outsource your wholeness

54:31

to how everyone validates or doesn't validate

54:34

you. And that's been really my work.

54:36

And it's quite amazing to now. have

54:38

the strength to tell the truth and

54:40

look back and go, wow, for so

54:42

long I had my own key to

54:44

let myself out of my own cage

54:46

and I didn't know that I could

54:49

do it. Yeah, yeah. One of the

54:51

visualizations I used to do when I

54:53

was really unraveling my people pleasing codependence

54:55

because they really go. hand in hand.

54:57

And I tend to be like more

54:59

covert in my communication. So I'll just

55:01

sort of take and take and take

55:04

and you won't know I'm pissed off

55:06

until like I blow up the friendship.

55:08

You know, like it's just like I'm

55:10

done instead of really just just handling

55:12

something when it comes in. So it's

55:14

been a big thing for me to

55:16

learn. And one of the visualizations I

55:19

would do when I thought I made

55:21

someone matter, I thought I hurt someone.

55:23

Is give them back to God. like

55:25

to remember that this is their path

55:27

and their child of God and I

55:29

would put them in an individualization I'd

55:32

put them in a bubble because I'd

55:34

be all a mesh right I was

55:36

breaking all that emeshment codependence and attachment

55:38

people pleasing and I'd imagine putting them

55:40

in a bubble and then just sending

55:42

them up to source like up to

55:44

God and being like you've got them

55:47

like it is not my job. to

55:49

take care of this person or make

55:51

this person happy. And that's something I

55:53

so, you know, a dynamic that I

55:55

bought into with my mom, like I

55:57

thought it was my job, really to

55:59

make both my parents happy. And so

56:02

that's been a deprogramming I've had to

56:04

do over time, but that visualization really

56:06

kind of helped me take my rightful

56:08

place and cut chords and realize, oh,

56:10

wait, like, God's got them. Like, I

56:12

don't, I don't have to. Totally to.

56:14

whatever is in the highest divine order,

56:17

even me triggering this person will ultimately

56:19

lead to whatever is the liberation for

56:21

the divine order of all things. End

56:23

of story. Maybe it's a good period.

56:25

It's like sometimes I remember if I

56:27

have to fire somebody and I approach

56:30

it with this like love, it's like,

56:32

listen, if this isn't feeling like a

56:34

yes to me. then there's clearly a

56:36

place you're meant to be that I'm

56:38

keeping you from. Absolutely. And so there's

56:40

that way of like zooming out and

56:42

really knowing that everything winds up in

56:45

divine order and it's not your job

56:47

to think. that you have to be

56:49

in charge of everything. Yeah, everything here

56:51

today is really important and nourishing and

56:53

beautiful. I feel like this conversation could

56:55

just be on repeat every episode because

56:57

it really is the stuff, you know,

57:00

we can keep talking about low state

57:02

and how to be meditating and all,

57:04

it's like, but yet this is what's

57:06

underneath that has to. So tell everybody

57:08

where they can join. your next workshop

57:10

and where they can follow you and

57:12

your podcast so that they can stay

57:15

in the conversation with you. Oh, thank

57:17

you. Well, I have a podcast called

57:19

Over It and On With It, and

57:21

it's two episodes a week and one,

57:23

I do an interview, like you were

57:25

just on last week. And the other

57:28

episode Wednesday, the numbered episodes, are unscripted,

57:30

unedited, coaching sessions with people. So I

57:32

combine coaching and spiritual psychology. I do

57:34

a lot of inner child work. So

57:36

you can learn a lot and sort

57:38

of be in the client's chair, be

57:40

a fly on the wall in a

57:43

coaching session there. And if you're interested

57:45

in one-on-one coaching, I do one-on-one coaching,

57:47

my husband and I do couples coaching.

57:49

And what's really exciting that we're teaching

57:51

this spring is our Be the Queen

57:53

program. And that's for women calling in

57:55

their conscious relationship. It was based on

57:58

how I called in my husband, which

58:00

was quite miraculous, and I was 40

58:02

when I did it, and I had

58:04

my baby girl completely naturally at home,

58:06

no fertility at 44. So I want

58:08

to be an inspiring voice to women

58:11

that are buying, and I have to

58:13

actually think about my ages because one

58:15

of the things I did, you know,

58:17

was just like not buy into age

58:19

anymore. So I actually didn't say my

58:21

age didn't celebrate numbers on birthdays, like

58:23

I have to really think about it.

58:26

But I know some people like to

58:28

know numbers. But that program is for

58:30

really any woman who is either in

58:32

relationship and is like wondering if it's

58:34

the right relationship separating, newly single getting

58:36

over an X or wanting and wanting

58:38

to call been a long time and

58:41

wanting to call in that partner. It

58:43

works. We haven't over 65% success rate.

58:45

of women calling in their man within

58:47

a year of graduating for the program.

58:49

But I just want to say, like,

58:51

that's not the goal. The goal is

58:53

for you to come so much home

58:56

to yourself, that if the relationship is

58:58

in your highest good, it comes in

59:00

effortlessly and easily, and you don't have

59:02

any suffering, and you learn how to

59:04

balance how to integrate both your desire

59:06

and your longing without any suffering. So

59:09

if you want to join us for

59:11

that, you can go to christinehaster.com/Kathy. Love

59:13

that. I really love that. I'm like,

59:15

I want to do it. I did.

59:17

People who need to do it. So

59:19

amazing. Thank you for being so loving

59:21

and so wise and for letting us

59:24

have just such an intimate conversation. It's

59:26

really so healing. Oh, well, thank you

59:28

for creating this space for that by

59:30

being a container where so much vulnerability

59:32

and just, you know, these kind of

59:34

conversations between women. It's just coming home

59:36

to like who we are, right? And

59:39

we can like drop the masks and

59:41

it's so much, it's so fun to

59:43

talk about business and all the exciting

59:45

things and our kids and and when

59:47

we can really come and really talk

59:49

about intimacy and like the things that

59:51

we're like working through and healing inside

59:54

ourselves, like we find that sisterhood that

59:56

so many of us really, really need.

59:58

A hundred percent. Thank you so much.

1:00:00

Thank you. It truly is a gift

1:00:02

to other people when you let them

1:00:04

support you. Number two, we can be

1:00:07

uncomfortable with other people's discomfort. That's how

1:00:09

you have healthy boundaries and limits in

1:00:11

your life. Number three, practice self-honoring. Reassure

1:00:13

that little one inside, it's okay, I've

1:00:15

got you. You deserve to have your

1:00:17

needs met. Is there anything else you

1:00:19

need? Attune to your own needs first

1:00:22

and foremost. Number four, confidence is radical

1:00:24

self-acceptance. It's radically accepting who you are.

1:00:26

taking 100% responsibility for it and not

1:00:28

looking for someone to come and save

1:00:30

you. Number 5. Be the muse. Don't

1:00:32

be controlling, but be the invitation.

1:00:34

and inspiration. Number six,

1:00:37

don't battle for

1:00:39

certainty. True intimacy is

1:00:41

the agreement to

1:00:43

pause and be in

1:00:45

the in -between in

1:00:47

that uncomfortable place

1:00:49

of uncertainty. Number seven,

1:00:52

be willing to

1:00:54

end the old so

1:00:56

that you can

1:00:58

recreate the new. Thank

1:01:00

you so much

1:01:02

for listening and being

1:01:05

here. I never

1:01:07

take it for granted

1:01:09

that you listen

1:01:11

to this podcast. There's

1:01:13

so many good

1:01:15

episodes coming up, so

1:01:17

please follow along

1:01:20

on Apple Podcasts or

1:01:22

Spotify wherever you're

1:01:24

listening. And if anything

1:01:26

from this show

1:01:28

resonates with you, we'd

1:01:30

love to know.

1:01:32

You can leave a

1:01:35

rating interview which

1:01:37

only takes a minute

1:01:39

and it helps

1:01:41

us so much. Can

1:01:43

you think of

1:01:45

somebody who would appreciate

1:01:48

today's episode? If

1:01:50

so, maybe share it

1:01:52

with them, text

1:01:54

it to them, post

1:01:56

about the show

1:01:58

on your Instagram. And

1:02:00

finally, the doors

1:02:03

are open to my

1:02:05

full podcast program.

1:02:07

It's an amazing program.

1:02:09

It's an accelerator.

1:02:11

It's going to help

1:02:13

you start a

1:02:15

podcast, grow a podcast,

1:02:18

monetize a podcast.

1:02:20

If you want to

1:02:22

learn from me

1:02:24

and you want to

1:02:26

grow this thing

1:02:28

that could have a

1:02:30

real impact, you

1:02:33

can join us for

1:02:35

seven months. You

1:02:37

can go to cathiheller.com/join

1:02:39

to get all

1:02:41

the details. And there's

1:02:43

also a way

1:02:46

for you to find

1:02:48

out more details

1:02:50

about my business mentorship

1:02:52

in general and

1:02:54

how you can sort

1:02:56

of bundle it

1:02:58

all together. Go to

1:03:01

cathiheller.com/join. Check it

1:03:03

out. I love you

1:03:05

so much. I'll

1:03:07

talk to you next

1:03:09

week.