0:01

Today, October 22 is

0:03

a very significant

0:05

day in the

0:08

history of our

0:10

beginnings. Welcome back

0:12

to the very significant

0:14

day in the history of our

0:17

beginnings. Good to back to you with us Good

0:19

to have you with us for

0:21

another wonderful episode. This

0:23

is going to be is of

0:25

our series, our trilogy, of that

0:27

is. our trilogy.

0:31

That's right. We're going to

0:33

do three episodes, three

0:35

entire episodes, entire episodes, covering Monday,

0:37

Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday,

0:40

Friday. six days in six

0:42

days. We are setting some new

0:44

records here. we are setting

0:46

some new records here episode, I need

0:48

we dive into today's episode I've need

0:51

to clear some things up because

0:53

I've been hearing from some of

0:55

you guys oh, it's so so sad

0:57

the podcast is over is over. The podcast

0:59

is not over things are Some

1:01

things aren't changing but the podcast is

1:03

not over. me So let me just to it

1:05

clear to everybody and if you're just

1:07

joining us you're just picking this up because

1:09

you heard this up going through some controversial

1:12

stuff I want to tune in and see

1:14

if he's a to First of all see

1:16

to the show. First of all, just

1:18

save you a lot of time just

1:20

am a you a lot of time here. I am heretic.

1:22

but But just tuning in, you don't know what's

1:24

going on. in, you don't know what's going on. The season

1:26

is about to end. to We're going

1:28

to have this episode, which is episode,

1:30

which We're going to have Glacier View

1:32

Part 3. 2. We're we're going to

1:34

have a recap episode that basically have a

1:36

recap deals with the aftermath of Glacier

1:39

View with some other things that happened

1:41

in the church, such as votes

1:43

about women's ordination. the church, such as votes about

1:45

it up to about, And

1:47

just know, about today. about, you

1:49

know, Not quite. Not quite. Trust

1:51

me, I understand. There is very

1:54

little perspective on events of history

1:56

that are so recent. So I'm

1:58

not pretending like that final re... episode

2:00

is going to be of the

2:02

same kind of quality because it's

2:04

a you know I don't I

2:07

don't know I don't I don't

2:09

have letters from people who are

2:11

still alive and still working for

2:13

the church at high levels and

2:15

stuff I can't do the kind

2:17

of research that I would do

2:19

subjects that are decades in the

2:22

past so it just feels weird

2:24

though to end it with Desmond

2:26

Ford and kind of a bummer

2:28

note and so I wanted to

2:30

to have the final episode that

2:32

just kind of narrates, well how

2:34

did we get from 1980 to

2:36

where we are today? You know,

2:39

what can we possibly say about

2:41

that time period? Understanding that we're

2:43

not going to have a lot

2:45

of perspective on that time period.

2:47

Okay, so it's just about being

2:49

a completionist. How did we get

2:51

from there to here? Okay, so

2:54

that's going to be the end

2:56

of season two. After season two

2:58

is over, I'm going to go

3:00

back and re-record and update season

3:02

one. There's a lot of reasons

3:04

for this. One is the audio

3:06

quality of those first episodes is

3:09

not up to par with season

3:11

two, so I want it all

3:13

to sound the same. Maybe even

3:15

a bigger reason is that I've

3:17

learned a lot in the 10

3:19

plus years that I've been doing

3:21

this podcast, and I would like

3:23

to update some of those early

3:26

episodes to reflect what I've learned.

3:28

While I do that, I'm going

3:30

to take season one down. So

3:32

you're not going to be able

3:34

to listen to season one while

3:36

I'm updating it. I think that

3:38

will prevent confusion. People are like,

3:41

oh, he's updating season one, but

3:43

which episodes has he updated? You

3:45

know, I'm listening to it, it's

3:47

still the same. And also while

3:49

I'm updating season one, maybe I'm

3:51

changing a few things, and then

3:53

later episodes won. will be taken

3:56

down. You'll still be able to

3:58

listen to season two, but season

4:00

one will be taken down while

4:02

I record and update those. When

4:04

they are finished, they will be

4:06

uploaded. it as, I don't know,

4:08

episode one, 2.0. So they will

4:10

say 2.0 on them so you

4:13

know that they have been updated.

4:15

When will they be released? Will

4:17

you have to wait a month?

4:19

No. They will be released whenever

4:21

I'm done with them. So maybe,

4:23

I don't know, on a really

4:25

busy month you might get one.

4:28

Maybe you'll get 10. You know,

4:30

they're just gonna be done whenever

4:32

I'm done depends on much work

4:34

needs to be done and updating

4:36

them But if it's just re-recording

4:38

doesn't take very long. I'll get

4:40

it done Okay, so we're gonna

4:43

finish season two gonna re-record season

4:45

one The third thing to understand

4:47

is we're not done after that

4:49

either because I'm gonna start working

4:51

on season three and four and

4:53

five and so on What is

4:55

going to change about that is

4:58

that future seasons obviously are not

5:00

going to be telling this chronological

5:02

story of the Avoness Church that

5:04

I've been doing over the first

5:06

two seasons. We've run out of

5:08

runway here, guys. There's nowhere else

5:10

to go. Instead, there are going

5:12

to be deeper dives into particular

5:15

issues and topics in Avoness history

5:17

that we didn't get a chance

5:19

to look at in greater depth.

5:21

So perhaps we'll have a season

5:23

on... Exactly how William Miller arrived

5:25

at his understanding that Jesus would

5:27

come about the year 1843, 1844,

5:30

how did he get to that?

5:32

What are his specific biblical arguments?

5:34

We might talk about women in

5:36

Adventist history. We might talk about,

5:38

you know, maybe a deeper dive

5:40

in race in Adventist history or

5:42

education. We didn't talk a lot

5:45

about schools in this podcast, or

5:47

maybe even about sanitariums. Where were

5:49

our sanitariums around the world? And

5:51

when were they built? And what

5:53

happened to them? And you know,

5:55

there's a lot we could talk

5:57

about. So when we do seasons

5:59

three, four, five, and six, and

6:02

all that kind of stuff, these

6:04

episodes will not be released monthly

6:06

either. We are done with monthly

6:08

releases. And so how that's going

6:10

to work is this? Maybe I

6:12

spend six months on season three.

6:14

At the end of those six

6:17

months, I'm done. I've recorded maybe

6:19

10 episodes, and then I released

6:21

them on a weekly basis until

6:23

we're done. And then I take

6:25

some months to research for the

6:27

next season. If that lets you

6:29

down, I'm sorry. Maybe you've gotten

6:32

in the habit over these years

6:34

of just saying, hey, the 22nd

6:36

of every month. That's Avinous History

6:38

Day. A new episode's coming out.

6:40

I'm here for it. I'm here

6:42

for it. I'm here for it.

6:44

It is going to be a

6:46

change of a routine. I'm that

6:49

kind of person too, where my

6:51

favorite podcasts, I know when they

6:53

get released, and I'm excited when

6:55

a new episode is coming out.

6:57

So I'm sorry if that disappoint

6:59

some folks. That's not my desire.

7:01

But it is necessary, because a

7:04

monthly release schedule, it may not

7:06

seem like a lot to you,

7:08

but it is a lot of

7:10

work that goes into getting these

7:12

episodes out. And if I'm really

7:14

going to do these deep dives

7:16

into specific topics, then I need

7:19

time. I need time to study

7:21

this. There's been a number of

7:23

episodes where I'm thinking, oh man,

7:25

I wish I had more time

7:27

with this episode, but I ran

7:29

out of time. With seasons three,

7:31

four, and five, and so forth,

7:33

without being anchored to a specific

7:36

release schedule, I can take the

7:38

time that I need. to get

7:40

it right so that I'm satisfied

7:42

with it. And I think that's

7:44

necessary when you're doing a deep

7:46

dive. When you have releases that

7:48

are not monthly, it also will

7:51

free up some time for me

7:53

to organize the bus tour that

7:55

I hope is going to be

7:57

a yearly thing. We really enjoyed,

7:59

Michael and I really enjoyed doing

8:01

the bus tour with you guys

8:03

this last October, the first ever,

8:06

Avenus History Project bus tour, looking

8:08

forward to another one. every autumn.

8:10

Hopefully, every autumn. And we always

8:12

want to spruce it up and

8:14

make it interesting. Well, these things

8:16

take time. It is a bear

8:18

to plan one of these things.

8:21

Let me just tell you. And

8:23

so, not having a set release.

8:25

Schedule allows me a little bit

8:27

more time to plan those tours

8:29

as well, something I really love

8:31

doing, and also to release some

8:33

videos on the YouTube channel. I

8:35

am not giving up on the

8:38

audio podcast, but I do want

8:40

to invest more in our YouTube

8:42

channel. I was preaching recently, and

8:44

the lady came up to me

8:46

and said, hey, I learned a

8:48

lot about Avinous Nudists, and of

8:50

course she's referring to a video

8:53

I did on Avinous Nudists, and

8:55

I'm excited about that. I think

8:57

there's a lot of Avonus history

8:59

that needs to get on YouTube

9:01

and we got a lot of

9:03

footage from our bus tour and

9:05

some of that's going to get

9:08

turned into some videos on YouTube

9:10

as well and I'm excited about

9:12

that. So if you want hit

9:14

pause right now go subscribe over

9:16

on the YouTube channel so you

9:18

won't miss the videos that are

9:20

going to get released next year.

9:22

The podcast is not ending my

9:25

friends. In fact it is growing.

9:27

Yes, that is the last bit

9:29

of good news. The Avenist History

9:31

Project has now been incorporated in

9:33

the state of Illinois as a

9:35

non-profit. And that bit of bureaucracy

9:37

will enable us to do some

9:40

cool things in the future. So

9:42

hang in there. There's a lot

9:44

of great stuff that is coming

9:46

down the pipeline for you. And

9:48

I'm looking forward to it. I

9:50

hope you are too. Okay. Last

9:52

time. In Glacier View Part One.

9:55

We talked about, basically, we just

9:57

covered Sunday and Monday of Glacier

9:59

View. We talked about Neil's welcome

10:01

of the Sanctuary Review Committee, welcoming

10:03

them to Glacier View Ranch, outlining

10:05

the schedule for them, and letting

10:07

them know that Desmond Ford is

10:09

not on trial here. His views

10:12

are on trial, but not Desmond

10:14

Ford. And then we dove into

10:16

Monday and the study groups that

10:18

met and the discussion they had,

10:20

and all of that. Today, we're

10:22

going to be talking about Tuesday

10:24

and Wednesday. And let's begin by

10:27

following the tape recording of Tuesday.

10:29

Now I believe that tape begins

10:31

late morning would be my guess.

10:33

Probably. after the study groups had

10:35

finished their study, but just before

10:37

lunch. That's my best guess. Well,

10:39

the tape doesn't give us a

10:42

precise time. At two points, Neil

10:44

Wilson makes comments like, stay with

10:46

us. We have a full afternoon,

10:48

and this afternoon, two hours from

10:50

now. So that suggested to me.

10:52

that this is probably recorded in

10:54

the late morning. The audio quality

10:56

is also not ideal and not

10:59

every word can be heard. This

11:01

usually wouldn't matter so much except

11:03

when you're trying to understand a

11:05

tense exchange between Desmond Ford and

11:07

Neil Wilson later that day. More

11:09

on that in a bit. Earlier

11:11

Tuesday morning, the study groups all

11:14

gathered to discuss the topic of

11:16

the investigative judgment, Daniel Chapter 8.

11:18

These questions concerned the linguistic and

11:20

contextual relationships in Daniel 8. In

11:22

other words, is Daniel 8 a

11:24

nod to the day of atonement

11:26

in Leviticus, chapter 16? What does

11:29

the Hebrew word Nizdak mean? That

11:31

is, is Daniel 814 really saying

11:33

the sanctuary will be cleansed? Because

11:35

that's how Nizdak has been translated

11:37

in some of the older translations

11:39

like the King James. And of

11:41

course, that's what many avenues... grew

11:43

up on is what many Avonus

11:46

evangelists used. And so is that

11:48

really what that Hebrew word means?

11:50

Now I didn't, I don't think

11:52

I need to remind you that

11:54

this is a foundational theme in

11:56

Adventism. Okay, William Miller mistakenly believed

11:58

the sanctuary to be cleansed was

12:01

the earth back in the early

12:03

1800s, and Avonus forebearers quickly came

12:05

to believe that annual 814 referred

12:07

to the cleansing of a heavenly

12:09

sanctuary. Fine. And now Dez openly

12:11

disputes that the Hebrew word Nidstock

12:13

means cleansed at all, which endangers

12:16

the interpretive consensus around what can

12:18

be considered the most foundational text,

12:20

at least historically. in Adventism. Okay,

12:22

so when William Miller says the

12:24

sanctuary that has to be cleanses,

12:26

the earth, Avoness, after the disappointment,

12:28

right, this is the famous realization

12:31

that where Miller erred was in

12:33

thinking that the earth was going

12:35

to be cleansed when in reality

12:37

it's talking about a heavenly sanctuary

12:39

and thus the investigative judgment has

12:41

begun. That's what's been cleansed. And

12:43

Dez is coming around and saying...

12:45

No, actually both parties, both the

12:48

Avonus pioneers and William Miller, misunderstand

12:50

this Hebrew word. So there's a

12:52

lot at stake in these discussions

12:54

on Tuesday. The results of the

12:56

survey that was conducted Sunday night

12:58

were announced Tuesday morning as well.

13:00

While 80% affirmed that the cleansing

13:03

of the heavenly sanctuary began in

13:05

1844, it's telling that 20% either

13:07

didn't agree or weren't sure. And

13:09

that's 20% of the people coming

13:11

into Glacier View. This is before

13:13

Des had a chance to answer

13:15

any questions. We're going to talk

13:18

about that later on. He's not

13:20

there persuading anybody of anything. 20%

13:22

of the people arrived at Glacier

13:24

View who either didn't agree or

13:26

weren't sure that the cleansing of

13:28

the heavenly sanctuary began in 1844.

13:30

When it came to understanding why

13:32

the sanctuary needed to be cleansed

13:35

there was even less agreement 22%

13:37

said the sanctuary needed to be

13:39

cleansed because the little horn had

13:41

polluted it Another 22% said the

13:43

sanctuary was polluted by the sins

13:45

of the saints and 49% said

13:47

both the little horn and the

13:50

sins of the saints had polluted

13:52

the sanctuary Which is the all

13:54

of the above answer you select

13:56

if you aren't sure and both

13:58

answers look good Now, the Glacier

14:00

View Survey is fascinating, not because

14:02

of what it can tell us

14:05

about the Avonus Church as a

14:07

whole, but because of what it

14:09

tells us about the church's leaders.

14:11

When a question asks them to

14:13

affirm a traditional Adventist view or

14:15

not, a majority always affirms the

14:17

Adventist view. When asked a question

14:19

that calls for a specific, nuanced

14:22

understanding of a topic, well, the

14:24

leaders tend to reveal themselves to

14:26

be more divided, just as in

14:28

the two questions about the cleansing

14:30

of the sanctuary. 80% believed the

14:32

cleansing of the sanctuary began in

14:34

1844, which is a clear... but

14:37

not an inspiring majority. When asked

14:39

what the sanctuary is being cleansed

14:41

from, that is a more specific

14:43

question, they weren't sure at all.

14:45

Was it the little horn? Was

14:47

it the sins of the saints?

14:49

Was it both? None of those

14:52

answers cleared 50 percent. Even when

14:54

the survey asked whether the 2,300

14:56

days in Daniel 814 originally intended

14:58

to lead to 1844. or whether

15:00

this was a secondary application. In

15:02

other words, the traditional avenues view

15:04

or Desmond Ford's view, more than

15:06

a third sided with Ford, or

15:09

else they weren't, sure. When a

15:11

third of the leaders of the

15:13

church don't agree with the church's

15:15

traditional teaching, then of what value

15:17

is it to talk about official

15:19

positions of the church? That

15:22

is a serious problem and

15:24

it is a problem that

15:26

will linger long after Glacier

15:29

View Because how do you

15:31

judge Desmond Ford? For not

15:33

being able to uphold a

15:35

fundamental belief that by the

15:37

way Was just officially adopted

15:39

five months ago if potentially

15:42

20 to 30% of other

15:44

church leaders don't agree with

15:46

the church's traditional teaching or

15:48

its official position either. This

15:50

is a problem that is

15:53

bigger than Des Ford. if

15:55

you are interested in seeing

15:57

the quote unquote official views

15:59

of the church being taught

16:01

because clearly a large minority,

16:03

a sizable minority of church

16:06

leaders aren't agreeing with some

16:08

of these official positions and

16:10

even when they do agree

16:12

with the official positions of

16:14

the church when you ask

16:17

them a more specific question

16:19

they aren't always sure how

16:21

they arrived at that belief.

16:23

Okay, now I know we're

16:25

in the weeds here. We're

16:28

not talking about Saturday as

16:30

a Sabbath. We're not talking

16:32

about Stay the Dead. We're

16:34

not talking about some of

16:36

these things that I think

16:38

if you quizzed the church

16:41

leaders on this, you'd have

16:43

high levels of agreement and

16:45

deep levels of understanding. I

16:47

think we're talking about, you

16:49

know, real minute stuff in

16:52

Daniel 814, minute stuff, but

16:54

important stuff because... The pioneers

16:56

all believe that 1844 was

16:58

a hugely significant date. At

17:00

least that first, second generation

17:02

of pioneers did. That it

17:05

was the aim of Bible

17:07

prophecy to lead to that

17:09

date. That something significant happened

17:11

on that date. And when

17:13

you ask some of these

17:16

leaders, a good third of

17:18

them at Glacier View. You

17:21

know, did Daniel 814 really point

17:23

to 1844 or was it a

17:26

secondary application? And I think it's

17:28

like, hey, I know 1844 is

17:30

the right answer. I don't know

17:33

anything deeper than that about it.

17:35

Primary, secondary application. And when you

17:38

ask them, you know, like, why

17:40

did the sanctuary need to be

17:42

cleans? You know, what does the

17:45

Bible really teach in Daniel 8?

17:47

Is it the sins of the

17:49

saints? Is that what's being cleansed?

17:52

Is that why it's being cleansed?

17:54

Or is it the sins of

17:56

the little horn? Is it evil?

17:59

Is it wickedness? I don't know.

18:01

And again, I'm not saying this

18:04

as if somehow all the rest

18:06

of us know and how do

18:08

these guys not? No. These are

18:11

deep questions about specific parts of

18:13

the Bible. But it does reveal

18:15

that among our leaders, whatever majority

18:18

view, the 80%, the 70%, who

18:20

said, yes, I believe this, it

18:23

was a little hollow in terms

18:25

of them understanding why they believe

18:27

this. And I think if you

18:30

were to press a little more,

18:32

you'd find more diversity. more uncertainty

18:34

on some of these topics. And

18:37

again, I don't think you'd find

18:39

that when you're talking about the

18:41

Sabbath or some of these other

18:44

issues. But I think what we

18:46

can conclude from this is that

18:49

it's not Desmond Ford's fault if

18:51

people weren't preaching the investigative judgment

18:53

in his day or in ours.

18:57

It seems that there was even

18:59

without Ford a rather hollow consensus,

19:02

an uncertainty underneath the certainty. Church

19:04

leaders didn't uniformly grasp the importance

19:06

of these things, at least on

19:08

a theological level. I think they

19:11

understood the importance of 1844 in

19:13

terms of... connecting the present church

19:15

with the past church in terms

19:17

of its value in uniting the

19:20

church, but asking him to do

19:22

exegesis and Daniel 8? Yeah, that's

19:24

a little tougher. When I was

19:26

pasturing, I joked that this is

19:29

kind of one of those tongue

19:31

and cheek jokes, right? I joke

19:33

that you'll still be disciplined or

19:36

get in trouble. for denying the

19:38

sanctuary message but don't ask anyone

19:40

to explain what the sanctuary message

19:42

is. They know it's important. it's

19:45

somehow vital to who we are

19:47

as Adventist and they'll go after

19:49

you if you publicly deny it.

19:51

But don't ask those people who

19:54

will go after you what it

19:56

is. Some will know what it

19:58

is in some detail, but I

20:00

think many of them just know

20:03

it's important and it's a thing

20:05

I got to defend. And it

20:07

seems that we are starting to

20:10

see that dynamic in 1980 and

20:12

that's why that, you know, even

20:14

earlier, okay, even in the 1950s,

20:16

with another survey that was done

20:19

then. But it's something you didn't

20:21

acknowledge publicly. And part of Glacier

20:23

View, what Glacier View did, was

20:25

expose that, I think, to the

20:28

public for the first time. And

20:30

I don't know if everybody noticed

20:32

it back then, but at the

20:34

very least, it was revealed to

20:37

church leaders themselves. You could not

20:39

walk out of Glacier View if

20:41

you're a church administrator without realizing,

20:43

gee. Gee. 80% of our educators,

20:46

of our administrators, of the pastors

20:48

who were present, they're on board,

20:50

but 20, 30% depending on the

20:53

question, that's a sizable minority of

20:55

people who have different ideas about

20:57

what the church is officially teaching

20:59

regarding the investigative judgment, 1844, all

21:02

that. That can't make you feel

21:04

confident, leave in Glacier View, whatever

21:06

happens at Desmond Ford, because those

21:08

are the people who are going

21:11

to be teaching, the future seminarians,

21:13

future theology students, they're the ones

21:15

who are going to be pasturing

21:17

churches, they're the ones who are

21:20

going to be administering conferences, and

21:22

you know, that's a lot of

21:24

people who are not going to

21:27

be gung-ho. about certain aspects of

21:29

what the church teaches. They're going

21:31

to be soft on those issues.

21:33

And that perhaps... than Desmond Ford

21:36

is how we got to where

21:38

we are today. Anyways, I digress.

21:40

It is a relevant conversation, however,

21:42

as it pertains the Glacier View,

21:45

because if it was true, as

21:47

Neil Wilson said on Sunday night,

21:49

that Desmond Ford was not on

21:51

trial, that only his views were

21:54

on trial, then it begs the

21:56

question, what does it mean? when

21:58

at least some of his views

22:01

were shared by a third of

22:03

his judges. Of course we know

22:05

the answer to this. First of

22:07

all, just technicality. The Sanctuary Review

22:10

Committee was not Desmond Ford's judges

22:12

per se. Prexad would take care

22:14

of that as soon as the

22:16

Sanctuary Review Committee was no longer

22:19

needed. As soon as Thursday ended,

22:21

Prexad took over. But you get

22:23

my point. And we see what

22:25

happens in the aftermath. We'll get

22:28

to that when we get to

22:30

that. that a number of folks

22:32

are fired, they lose their jobs,

22:35

and his views were on trial,

22:37

but only Desmond Ford sat in

22:39

the dock here. Okay, back to

22:41

the study groups. The study groups

22:44

on Tuesday reflected the survey results,

22:46

okay? Four of the study groups

22:48

reported that Nitzdock should be translated

22:50

as something other than cleansed. They

22:53

usually opted for something like to

22:55

make right. or to restore, which

22:57

is what most modern translations have

22:59

done in Daniel 814. Okay, that's

23:02

four of the study groups. There's

23:04

seven study groups. Four of them

23:06

say, we should translate it with

23:09

a word other than cleansed. Well,

23:11

what's at stake here theologically? The

23:13

concept of the investigative judgment is

23:15

that ever since 1844, we're living

23:18

in the anti-typical day of atonement.

23:20

The day of atonement was an

23:22

ancient Israelite festival where the people

23:24

in the sanctuary were cleansed. Daniel

23:27

814 alludes to the cleansing of

23:29

the sanctuary that is the day

23:31

of atonement. Okay, this is how

23:33

Avonus have understood this Daniel 814

23:36

alluding to the the cleansing sanctuary

23:38

that is the day of atonement

23:40

and it connects the this cleansing

23:42

of the heavenly sanctuary with a

23:45

2,300-year prophecy that terminates in 1844.

23:47

In other words, that's when this

23:49

cleansing of the sanctuary is going

23:52

to commence. Ford had argued that

23:54

Nitz-Dok didn't allude to the day

23:56

of atonement at all, right? The

23:58

word cleansing is not there, therefore

24:01

there's no illusion to the day

24:03

of atonement of Daniel 8. as

24:05

a whole. Okay? So what do

24:07

we do with 1844? Dez still

24:10

rescued it, okay? He wasn't just

24:12

throwing it out the window, but

24:14

his solution to that problem was

24:16

essentially to say that Daniel 814

24:19

didn't point to 1844 as a

24:21

primary fulfillment. It was because Jesus

24:23

didn't come in the first century,

24:26

he had to delay his coming

24:28

and therefore we can now reinterpret

24:30

Daniel 814 instead of... 2,300 days,

24:32

it's now 2,300 years, we can

24:35

apply this year-day prophecy. So that

24:37

1844 is a contingency. It was

24:39

not God's original plan and it

24:41

has nothing to do with the

24:44

Day of Atonement whatsoever. After the

24:46

groups had presented their reports, someone

24:48

I believe to be Mario Veloso

24:50

asked why the opinion of the

24:53

committees on how to translate Nitzdak

24:55

even matters when, as he put

24:57

it, only 9 or 10% of

25:00

the people here, no Hebrew. And

25:02

then he asked, is it by

25:04

faith that we are meant to

25:06

interpret this word? Mario went on

25:09

asking question after question after question

25:11

until Neil responded in good humor,

25:13

You've gotten three questions in one.

25:15

Mario instinctively immediately replied, Now hold

25:18

on as if he was about

25:20

to go on asking more questions

25:22

in the room erupted in laughter

25:24

for a solid ten to fifteen

25:27

seconds. Richard Hamel made it clear

25:29

that there was a word for

25:31

cleansed in Hebrew and it wasn't

25:34

being used in Daniel 814. Neil

25:36

acknowledged that it is troubling, that

25:38

the Avonus view requires such a

25:40

minute Hebrew expertise over the meaning

25:43

of words. Neil Wilson accepted that

25:45

restored, or something like that, was

25:47

the preferred translation. This doesn't mean

25:49

that Wilson sided with Ford, of

25:52

course. Richard Davidson, for example, has

25:54

no problem with translating Nitzdok as

25:56

restored, although he thinks it also

25:58

carries the meaning of cleanse. He

26:01

thinks it's a bundle of meanings.

26:03

And so he doesn't have any

26:05

problem with translating it as something

26:08

else, but he thinks it still

26:10

contains that meaning of cleansed. From

26:12

five to six o'clock in the

26:14

afternoon, Ford had his chance to

26:17

answer questions. This is where things

26:19

get really interesting. The catalyst for

26:21

things getting interesting was a question

26:23

that Ted Hepenstal asked Dez, his

26:26

friend. And sadly... Heavenstall's question was

26:28

not caught on the recording. Every

26:30

great moment, I feel like I'm

26:32

just missing. Except for, well, some

26:35

of what's about to come is

26:37

very much on the recording and

26:39

I'm very happy for that. But

26:41

we're still, we have some lacunai

26:44

in there, we have some missing

26:46

words. Anyways, okay, so from what

26:48

we do have on tape. And

26:51

from the memory of others, I

26:53

think we know Hepenstall was making

26:55

the point that if Daniel 814

26:57

does not point to 1844, then

27:00

what reason do we have to

27:02

be an Adventist? Or as I

27:04

believe he put it, we don't

27:06

have any foundation. Specifically, could Dez

27:09

not see the investigative judgment in

27:11

Daniel 7? Jillian Ford noted that

27:13

Hepenstall's comments in public were similar

27:15

to what he had said to

27:18

Dez in private. on Monday. In

27:20

other words, there's a couple different

27:22

ways to read this situation, to

27:25

understand what Happens Tall is doing,

27:27

and I very much look forward

27:29

to Gil Valentine's book on Happens

27:31

Tall, whenever that is going to

27:34

be done, because I suspect he'll,

27:36

you know, he's had time to

27:38

look into this and he can

27:40

give us a good read on

27:43

what Hepenstall was trying to do

27:45

here. It could very well be

27:47

that Hepenstall's question to Dez in

27:49

private on Monday, you know, that

27:52

Hep was thinking, hey I've already

27:54

had this conversation with Dez, I

27:56

know how he's going to answer

27:59

this question, let me give him

28:01

a little softball question. When you

28:03

ask... If Daniel A14 doesn't point

28:05

to 1844, then what reason do

28:08

we have to be Adventist? I

28:10

mean, that's potentially a softball question

28:12

that Dez should be able to

28:14

say, oh, there are many great

28:17

reasons to be Adventist, you know,

28:19

biblical reasons to be Adventist, and

28:21

it was a way of positioning

28:23

Dez to make a faith affirming

28:26

statement in front of everybody. Okay?

28:28

There's also other ways of understanding

28:30

this that, you know, if... that

28:33

Heavenstall knew what Dez said on

28:35

Monday night, and so he was

28:37

trying to make Dez look bad.

28:39

I don't think that that's the

28:42

case. But I wonder if Heavenstall

28:44

was trying to give Dez an

28:46

opportunity to say that he still

28:48

believed in a pre-advent judgment, which

28:51

Heavenstall knew Dez believed in because

28:53

they had just talked about it

28:55

24 hours ago. So, perhaps from

28:57

his view, he was giving Dez

29:00

a chance to say in public

29:02

what he had said in private

29:04

to not allow himself to be

29:07

defined by his differences, because as

29:09

you can imagine, Dez gets asked

29:11

a lot of questions about, you

29:13

know, well, where do you differ

29:16

from your eyes, Smith, and, you

29:18

know, like, you have a peculiar

29:20

view about Ella White's inspiration? You

29:22

know, a lot of the questions

29:25

are going to focus on why

29:27

are you different from us? If

29:29

this was meant to be a

29:31

softball question to help Dez, it

29:34

profoundly backfired. Because Ford, seeing Hepenstall's

29:36

question as a challenge more than

29:38

a chance, reiterated that, quote, I

29:40

believe God raised up this people

29:43

in 1844. I believe God gave

29:45

this people a... special message for

29:47

the world. I believe this people

29:50

have been entrusted to them, the

29:52

seal of the everlasting covenant, the

29:54

Sabbath, the sign of the everlasting

29:56

gospel. I believe the whole world

29:59

is going to be tested over

30:01

that Sabbath, but I do not

30:03

believe that Daniel 7 is saying

30:05

all of those things. My conscience

30:08

is bound to the word of

30:10

God." Okay. That seems to be

30:12

the answer that Heavenstall was after,

30:14

right? Des makes these affirmations. Affirmations

30:17

that would appeal, I think, to

30:19

any traditional Adventist, that he still

30:21

affirming all of these things. He

30:24

may not find them in Daniel

30:26

7, exegetically, but he still believes

30:28

all of these things. But that

30:30

just raises the question, right? Well,

30:33

if you don't believe Daniel 814

30:35

points to 1844, then why do

30:37

you believe 1844 is significant? And

30:39

that's exactly what Joseph Battistone said,

30:42

and I think he was then

30:44

pasturing Fletcher Academy. He says, to

30:46

Dez, quote, if you could give

30:48

us the biblical support for your

30:51

conviction that Dez raised up the

30:53

Avinous Church in 1844, I would

30:55

feel more at ease, end quote.

30:58

And unfortunately, and typically, Dez's answer

31:00

was difficult to hear on the

31:02

tape. Again, it's a conspiracy. The

31:04

Jeszowitz did this. They messed with

31:07

the tape. Someone else questioned Dez

31:09

about whether Dez still stood by

31:11

what he had published in his

31:13

Black Daniel commentary? This was another

31:16

thing, right? Like the Southern Publishing

31:18

had published Dez's commentary on Daniel

31:20

as part of their Anvil series.

31:22

Do you still stand by that?

31:25

Dez responded, quote, the commentary on

31:27

Daniel was written about 1973, 1974,

31:29

something like that. I would stand

31:32

by 98% of what I wrote

31:34

seven years ago. A wise man

31:36

changes his mind sometimes a fool

31:38

never. I am constantly learning, which

31:41

means that we are constantly un

31:43

quote. speaker The up

31:45

followed up and

31:47

asked Ellen White, you say

31:50

she's You say

31:52

she's a pastoral

31:54

authority, not a

31:56

canonical authority, but

31:59

you quote her

32:01

to defend your your

32:03

it suits you

32:06

and you ignore

32:08

her when it

32:10

suits you. it suits

32:12

Des fielded that

32:15

question gamely too. quote. I

32:17

believe And I believe God spoke through

32:19

gave her He gave her visions and

32:21

dreams. church would have church would have shipwrecked

32:23

if it weren't for Ellen White. I know

32:25

know Ellen White better than my

32:27

other books, and I I read Ellen

32:29

White, we I feel we misuse

32:31

Ellen to Ray, Ron Numbers, Don Alluding to

32:33

Walter Ray, Ron of past decade who

32:36

and scholars of the past decade

32:38

who documented Dez the White's use

32:40

of sources, Des noted how

32:42

these revelations challenge the of understanding

32:44

of inspiration. tried to interrupt Dez and

32:46

to interrupt answer his get him to

32:48

answer his question more directly, the right?

32:50

What is the difference between pastoral

32:53

authority and canonical authority? Instead,

32:55

Dez Dez just kept giving

32:57

more examples that demonstrate

32:59

Ellen White could not be

33:01

not be inerrant. So why do I do I say

33:03

that happens to all efforts? efforts backfired

33:05

when Dez When Des, much, you much, you know, he

33:07

took the opportunity to say, I believe that

33:09

God spoke through L and Y. He took

33:11

the chance to say, I believe God raised

33:13

up this people in 1844. up this people

33:15

in 1844, because Hepenstall's

33:18

if indeed it was a softball

33:20

question meant to help to help Dez,

33:22

backfired because it annoyed

33:24

Neil Wilson It annoyed

33:27

Neil Wilson. Neil spoke. in

33:29

a very stern voice. that

33:31

the wise man changes his

33:33

make the statement that the wise man

33:35

changes his mind. are open you could

33:37

be wrong, that you are open

33:39

to counsel. change Have you ever made any

33:41

change based on the of of any of

33:43

your brothers? You say you have say you

33:46

have great affection for Ellen White. Ellen

33:48

White said you ought to present these things

33:50

to your brothers in leadership and if

33:52

they see no light in it, no you

33:54

are to put it in your pocket it

33:56

forget it. and if this

33:58

group this group here were to... tell you that

34:00

position on 1844, that they

34:02

see no light in it. you

34:05

do What would you do about it? and

34:07

of course, I cannot of course. out

34:09

Deza's I cannot quite make

34:11

out Dez's response to Neil's question. He

34:13

seems to be saying something about the facts.

34:15

And in And in any case, Neil jumped

34:17

right back into it. quote, Dez, that's not

34:19

what the Lord told us. us. You see,

34:21

see, this is where you're going to

34:23

find your biggest problem, Dez. You are

34:25

not listening to any of your brethren.

34:27

You want them to listen to you,

34:29

but you never listen to them. to You

34:31

are making no accommodation in your thinking,

34:34

your plans, your viewpoints, your theology on

34:36

the basis of any from any any of

34:38

your brethren, quote. end quote. Dez then began talking over

34:40

each other, over each other making it

34:42

difficult even impossible to make out

34:44

what was being said said, and ended

34:46

up speaking again again. Quote, if

34:48

you if you believe in White as fervently,

34:50

perhaps he's saying saying as you state,

34:52

if if these brethren of yours you

34:54

tell you that there is no light

34:57

in what you are saying, you'd you'd

34:59

better than practice what you've been

35:01

telling us we ought to do, to

35:03

what you say say you preach, and that

35:05

is you'd better put it in

35:07

your pocket, and you'd better say, you

35:09

know, I probably was wrong, was quote.

35:12

quote. Ford Ford responds by saying,

35:14

Elder Wilson, I have no wish. no wish.

35:16

But then hard to tell what he

35:18

says after that, but he ends by

35:20

saying but whatever by saying does add that does

35:22

add that, quote, that manuscript was

35:24

written at the behest of the behest

35:26

of the end quote. end

35:29

quote. Neil again. Quote, Des, you you

35:31

know my heart is burdened over this. It

35:33

really is. is. And a lot of my brothers

35:35

here know it. know A lot of my

35:37

brothers know and understand that a few of

35:39

us have put ourselves in a very difficult

35:41

position with a lot of people in this

35:43

church to try with I was gonna say in

35:45

but that isn't the word that I really

35:48

wanted, to to somehow be redemptive in this whole

35:50

situation. to And if at no point, Des,

35:52

you're going to be willing to accept any

35:54

counsel from your brethren when they tell you

35:56

that they see no light in your position, your

35:58

can you help a person? if they they

36:00

won't be helped. This quote.

36:03

we do have Desa's This

36:05

time we do have short.

36:07

Quote, Elder and it's short.

36:09

think on what you said, and

36:12

Wilson, I'll think on what you said. in

36:15

I see the you in it. End

36:17

I thank you for it. was the

36:19

quote. scolding

36:21

the infamous Ford Desmond Ford

36:23

received by Neil Wilson at Glacier

36:25

View. Ray Cutrell thought this

36:27

was the most tense moment

36:29

of the week. of the

36:31

week. You see when I When I

36:33

was giving you Ford's answers to various

36:35

questions that were being asked to

36:37

him, I give you abbreviated to some

36:39

of these answers. rambled and

36:41

ran on for a good stretch

36:44

of time. and ran on for

36:46

a good stretch of time. wife

36:49

says he he wasn't

36:51

sleeping much much at Glacier View, and

36:53

be sure, sure. who among us wants

36:55

to be standing in Des in

36:57

shoes Ford's shoes at Who wants

36:59

to have? to have the the

37:01

kind of intense... examination that

37:03

every that every

37:05

conversation he has has the potential

37:07

to scales for or against the

37:09

scales a lot riding against him. There's a

37:12

lot riding on this thing, his There's a

37:14

lot on his shoulders at this thing.

37:16

if he And if he doesn't answer every

37:18

question as succinctly and in...

37:20

and wrap a little bow on it

37:22

as we might want, we might can

37:24

understand that. can understand that. But

37:26

when he but when he was asked. Ellen

37:29

about just to give you to give you an

37:31

example. and he said, I believe

37:33

God spoke through Ellen he said, I

37:35

believe God spoke through Elohim. He gave her

37:37

visions and dreams. be The church

37:39

will be if it weren't if it weren't for

37:41

Ellen Why go on to talk about her

37:43

go on to talk about her use of

37:45

sources? You know what I mean? playing we're

37:47

playing Monday morning quarterback here. here.

37:49

I I don't know all the details, maybe

37:52

there was some reason why he

37:54

felt he needed to say that,

37:56

to but it does it does a

37:58

difference. difference. between

38:00

him and many of them. of

38:02

them. It's as if he

38:05

wasn't It's as if he wasn't

38:07

able to what he believed

38:09

in common with he believed

38:11

in common with them without also adding

38:13

something that he disagreed with with

38:16

from many of them. of them. The reason

38:18

the reason why I bring up

38:21

that very minute point. minute point

38:23

that Ray Cottrell... Thought

38:26

thought this was the most tense

38:28

moment of the week, right? of He

38:30

called He called answers. know, know, he he

38:33

realized Ford is is of rambling

38:35

a little bit, he's he's He's not

38:37

always answering the questions directly that

38:39

were being asked of him. that were

38:41

being asked of him And so

38:43

this this this this period on

38:46

Tuesday on quote him, the

38:48

the nadir of Ford's performance at

38:50

Glacier View. View end quote the

38:52

low point But Cattrell

38:54

also noted that many were

38:56

puzzled by Wilson's outburst, right? outburst,

38:58

It sounds to to me, just from

39:00

my opinion. like Neil said some said

39:02

some things that he had been

39:04

thinking. perhaps even wanting to stay in private, but

39:06

it all just kind of burst out. of

39:09

burst out. And the sight the sight

39:11

of the general conference president giving

39:13

free reign to his inmost

39:15

thoughts, inmost some scholars, as as put

39:17

it, put it, to, quote, begin

39:19

wonder if their presence at Glacier

39:21

View had been intended to provide

39:23

support. for a

39:25

decision concerning four that had

39:27

already been determined. concerning quote. that

39:29

had already been determined,

39:31

end quote. Because have seemed,

39:34

must have that Wilson's real feelings

39:36

came out in that moment. came out in

39:38

that that he was angry with

39:40

Desmond angry with Desmond Ford, and

39:42

that and that this was all just

39:44

theater. theater. This This

39:47

was all just a covering to

39:49

make. make the firing of Desmond

39:51

of Desmond Ford. he, well, to make

39:54

it seem like make it seem like for

39:56

it had been given due process process,

39:58

right? Ford,

40:01

for his part. in his typically

40:03

his typically understated

40:05

manner. that out of all the would

40:07

later say that out of all the

40:10

members of the sanctuary review committee, only one

40:12

was ever discourteous to him. to

40:14

him. And course he means Neil Wilson. Neil

40:16

Wilson. In a a letter

40:18

written Tuesday evening. Jillian said

40:21

said that got very very intense.

40:23

that it it was a very

40:25

emotional event. event. She She

40:27

said, the the scholars were very shaken. The

40:29

The others are more convinced than ever

40:31

that Des is a heretic, is end

40:33

quote. end quote. Luke

40:35

Ford, their -year -old son,

40:38

apparently turned turned to Jillian

40:40

said, said, quote, boy, Elder Wilson

40:42

really really rough road dad, end

40:44

end quote. Others saw things a little

40:46

bit saw things a little bit differently. who

40:49

later who later identified himself as

40:51

among those who wanted Dez have a

40:53

chance to speak speak Glacier View, View.

40:55

was surprised that, Dez had a hard line

40:57

and made it very difficult for

41:00

Dr. Dr. who wanted very much

41:02

to present Des in the very

41:04

best light possible. best When it seemed

41:06

as if Des would maintain an

41:08

intractable position, Dr. Hebenstahl appealed to

41:10

him on a personal basis, using

41:12

such statements as, we don't want

41:15

to lose we don't want and can't

41:17

you, in some you see yours? way see

41:19

harmony with with the This

41:21

appeal became quite personal and

41:23

to some degree emotional, but

41:26

does but Dez remained firm. end quote. If

41:28

this is indeed what happened,

41:30

then it makes Wilson's

41:32

outburst a

41:34

makes more understandable. little

41:37

more understandable. I

41:39

say understandable, I'm not

41:41

saying excusable. It It makes

41:43

it a little bit more

41:45

understandable. understandable because Veltman saw,

41:47

is trying to.

41:50

trying to give Dez that that

41:52

softball question to help Des, not to

41:54

hurt Des. Dez. And again,

41:56

we we don't have this on the

41:58

tape. on the tape. Okay? When

42:00

I narrated what what happened,

42:02

That was from the tape. the tape,

42:05

largely. And so, you know, this

42:07

so, you know, this is something Veltman

42:09

said happened, but I don't, I

42:11

don't have it on tape. So on tape.

42:13

So, his piece of this piece of this puzzle,

42:15

however, helps make sense of this

42:17

a little bit more bit

42:19

more. That Hepenstall was

42:22

that Heavenstar was pleading with Dez, we

42:24

don't wanna lose you, Dez. you, Dez.

42:26

And if And if Des was

42:28

still saying somehow. you know, like, hey,

42:30

I can't budge from this position, this

42:32

then I can understand. I can understand.

42:34

And again, not excusing

42:36

the not excusing the

42:39

outburst. it as a, as but I

42:41

can understand it as of justice, did

42:43

it a matter of justice. was

42:46

it appeared as if Dez

42:48

was pouring his heart out

42:50

to move. And to move. to Veltman,

42:52

And according to development, that moment, quote, the

42:54

whole dynamic of the meeting had changed. had

42:57

end quote. quote. That

43:00

Wilson watching knew that knew that

43:02

Hebenstahl was friendly with Dez

43:04

and here's Hebenstahl very

43:06

clearly wanting to help Dez,

43:09

and Dez remains unmoved. Dez

43:11

and Dez that just. unmoved and

43:13

that just Maybe annoyed is

43:15

is downplaying Neil Wilson. Okay,

43:17

he wasn't Wilson. Okay, he wasn't

43:20

shouting at him or anything, but he was

43:22

very stern, very serious, very animated.

43:27

Here's your friends trying to

43:29

help you, to help you, Dez. Give a little,

43:31

you know, you know, responding kind a

43:34

little bit. bit. Now, of Now of

43:36

course that's Fred Viltman's perspective on

43:38

this. on this. Jillian believed

43:40

that Neil believe that

43:42

Neil this moment to chose this moment

43:45

to sabotage the Q &A session

43:47

with never he never wanted in the

43:49

first place. place. Ironically

43:53

it it seems that it was Hebenstahl

43:55

who had pleaded with Neil to

43:57

let Des to let Dez speak think think from this

43:59

perspective it's Neil never really wanted this to

44:01

begin with. to begin but he had to go

44:03

through the motions of making this look like

44:05

a this trial, a so to speak. so

44:07

to speak. And so he's like, like, yeah,

44:09

fine, Dez speak on Tuesday. And

44:11

then and then when know, maybe ramble

44:13

a little too much or

44:15

appeared to be a little stubborn,

44:17

little then that's when that's when Wilson pounced

44:19

on Dez and with an attempt to

44:21

just, you know. stir everybody

44:23

else up else up against to point

44:25

out look how intractable you're being.

44:27

you're being. I don't know, know. I wasn't

44:30

know, I wasn't there and eager to

44:32

not eager somebody to say that somebody who was

44:34

there. understand what understand

44:36

what was going on clearly You

44:39

know, Fred Fred Veltman and others, mean,

44:41

they were there. they were there. They

44:43

what what than I do. better than

44:45

I do. But I don't know don't know

44:47

Wilson's outburst was a premeditated

44:49

act of sabotage. It sounded

44:52

to me, in my

44:54

own humble opinion, humble opinion This was,

44:56

this was something that... that... Maybe

44:58

he had thought in in an moment.

45:01

moment erupted. A general

45:03

conference general conference president. is

45:06

is expected to keep. right?

45:08

Well, Bert They're cool. who

45:10

was supposed to present his

45:12

paper Monday before being who

45:14

was supposed to present his paper

45:17

make being bumped to Tuesday on make

45:19

room for well, he on Monday. again the

45:21

was bumped again the Wednesday in

45:23

order to make room for Fritz Fritz

45:25

Guy's Tuesday. Tuesday. Guy presented a

45:27

paper on the importance of

45:29

the of the sanctuary in Avonus right

45:32

from the start the the great

45:34

disappointment. great disappointment. Far

45:36

from being merely an an interesting

45:38

insight into an aspect of

45:40

transcendent reality. was for them

45:42

the theological validation of their

45:44

experience and their hopes. it

45:47

It was the means by

45:49

which these avanice could come

45:51

to terms with their unfulfilled

45:53

expectations, in which they had

45:55

invested both their financial resources

45:57

and their religious identity. identity. Indeed,

46:00

the very meaning of their lives." Guy

46:02

made it clear that theology made it clear that

46:04

theology is not done in a vacuum. He

46:06

said it was and conditioned,

46:08

and thus, we respect much we

46:10

respect the Adventist pioneers and

46:12

want to identify with their

46:14

experience, it remains their experience, not

46:16

ours, Guy end quote. that if the

46:18

Guy argued that if the sanctuary message

46:20

does not offer us an experience

46:23

it did the first then we then we

46:25

shouldn't be surprised if subsequent generations

46:27

don't see the point the of the

46:29

sanctuary message. message. Fritz Guy's Guy's presentation

46:31

invited everyone to take

46:33

a step back. focusing focusing

46:35

on a particular... Hebrew word in order

46:37

to ask the in order to ask

46:40

the question. basic meanings are the basic

46:42

meanings of the Bible? in the Bible? the

46:45

Fritz believed the sanctuary was important,

46:47

especially as Jesus' ministry in the

46:49

heavenly sanctuary needed to be

46:51

understood in terms of intercession and

46:53

judgment. Jesus' intercessory ministry

46:55

stretched from the cross to the end

46:57

of time time both ends needed to

46:59

be understood a like a rainbow And at

47:01

and at one end of the

47:03

rainbow we have the cross We have

47:05

his intercessory ministry at the other

47:07

end of the rainbow at the other have rainbow

47:09

we have the final judgment. This guy

47:12

said, guy said, that is both is and

47:14

meaning that is both correct

47:16

and necessary in an authentically avanice

47:18

theology of the sanctuary, words, quote.

47:20

In other words, theology

47:22

of the sanctuary that focuses

47:24

on the the cross at the

47:26

expense of the final judgment. know, of

47:28

course we're talking about an investigative about

47:30

well judgment as

47:32

well, is not authentic Adventist theology. It

47:34

may be an evangelical theology,

47:36

but it's not an Adventist theology.

47:39

An Adventist theology but it's the Adventist

47:41

going to contain both of

47:43

those components, of the both is

47:45

going to contain both both of both

47:47

forgiveness, both redemption,

47:49

both forgiveness at the end.

47:52

at the end. Justice. Justice. these

47:54

these sorts of things. Fritz

47:56

Guy's presentation notwithstanding, Tuesday been a

47:58

roller a roller coaster, okay? The

48:01

Ford camp had reason to be encouraged for

48:03

most of the day, of majority of the

48:05

study groups had reported that they weren't. had

48:08

the that view on

48:10

some of these points,

48:12

specifically of these points, specifically this

48:14

Some in Ford's friends

48:16

allowed themselves to feel hopeful

48:18

that the church could change.

48:20

the church could change. And that all

48:23

changed changed afternoon. when Neil

48:25

and Dez had that had that back and forth.

48:27

And I really wish we had the

48:29

precise words words Dez. said. That That would be

48:31

fantastic. We're really just getting one side

48:33

of this thing. side of this thing. And then, then

48:35

the know the swap that was made at

48:37

the last minute to get Fritz to paper

48:39

out there I think helped out there I I

48:41

would imagine help calm some things down

48:43

a little bit, not that Bert down a

48:46

would have stirred anybody up. Bert Heloviac it

48:48

seemed to be the perfect paper for

48:50

that moment. be the perfect it

48:52

was that moment because it was

48:54

a both and... Paper it spoke

48:56

to both to both sides of

48:58

this thing, right? It reminded the

49:00

Ford side. that the judgment

49:02

does matter. Not that Ford didn't think

49:04

the judgment mattered. And it reminded the

49:06

it side the traditional

49:08

aside that the ministry

49:11

of Jesus. of Jesus Was you

49:13

know of you know, that we need to be

49:15

that we need to be preaching

49:17

about claim we claim to be proclaiming

49:20

a sanctuary message, okay? message, okay? He

49:22

was trying to make sense of

49:24

both sets of language, of both

49:26

the cross both the and of of trying

49:28

to bring them all together to bring

49:30

them all together under this of the sanctuary. of

49:32

the And a lot of

49:35

people appreciated people appreciated Fritz

49:37

Guy's So I think it

49:39

had I effect of settling things down

49:41

a little bit, but nevertheless a little

49:43

bit. There's a lot hanging in the air right now.

49:45

a as we go into

49:48

Wednesday. now as we go into Wednesday. It

49:50

is. is. It is. A bit a bit harder

49:52

to identify the precise order of events.

49:54

it Of course, it began with a

49:56

study group meetings and then a discussion

49:58

in the afternoon. where I

50:00

believe a paper on Hebrews was

50:02

presented. The tape picks up in

50:04

the middle of a discussion and

50:07

then cuts off after a little

50:09

while. The study questions for that

50:11

day were from Hebrews, chapters 6,

50:13

9, and 10. The questions emerging

50:15

from those chapters should be familiar

50:17

to anyone who heard the last

50:19

episode I did in the Desmond

50:21

Ford series of episodes. As these

50:24

questions were bandied about by members

50:26

of the Ford Guiding Committee that

50:28

met before Glacier View, okay? Jesus'

50:30

ministry in the Heavenly Sanctuary, when

50:32

did it begin? You know, so

50:34

forth. Did it begin in 1844?

50:36

Did it begin at the Cross?

50:38

In the early afternoon, the study

50:41

groups gathered as they did every

50:43

day to discuss what they had

50:45

discussed in the morning. There may

50:47

have been a paper presented before

50:49

the recording, but after a little

50:51

discussion about Hebrews, Richard Hamel gets

50:53

up to say that Arthur White

50:55

will present his paper in Albian

50:58

Ballinger and then White in the

51:00

sanctuary. Except Arthur began by talking

51:02

about tithing. Attempting to set some

51:04

kind of record straight. And again,

51:06

this is the disadvantage you have

51:08

of not being there. You don't

51:10

always know, you know, why is

51:12

somebody saying something? What happened off

51:15

camera? What happened when the mics

51:17

weren't rolling? Then Arthur White made

51:19

his own position clear on the

51:21

role of his grandmother in the

51:23

church, quote, just where and when

51:25

the concept came among us that

51:27

we could not use the spirit

51:29

of prophecy in dealing with doctrinal

51:32

matters, I do not know, end

51:34

quote. Arthur affirmed that Avonus had

51:36

gotten their doctrines from the Bible,

51:38

but he was obviously afraid that

51:40

Avonus, like Dez Ford, wink wink

51:42

wink, were going too far in

51:44

distancing Ellen White's prophetic gift from

51:46

the theological formation of the church.

51:49

Then Arthur began pontificating on the

51:51

topic of Ellen White and her

51:53

sources for some reason. Again, this

51:55

is supposed to be a paper

51:57

on Ballinger. Anyways, quote, Ellen White

51:59

did not gain her doctrines from

52:01

the reading of commentaries or from

52:03

the reading of articles the pioneers

52:06

wrote. There was a very great

52:08

distortion taught. about Ella White's sources.

52:10

Dear friends, Ella White's basic sources

52:12

were the visions God gave to

52:14

her, not the writings of others.

52:16

She found the writings of others

52:18

helpful in making descriptions. Sometimes it

52:20

called her attention to a spiritual

52:23

truth, but my father made it

52:25

very clear, somewhat Willie White, and

52:27

he worked very closely to her,

52:29

that her sources were the visions.

52:31

was the topic he had been

52:33

assigned to address. And he should

52:35

have been aware that the sources

52:37

of Ella White's theology was not

52:40

all from visions. Okay? Should have

52:42

been aware of that at that

52:44

point. But anyways, he confessed to

52:46

finding it hard to sit in

52:48

silence and listen to people make

52:50

claims about grandma. that he found

52:52

to be misguided. And I think

52:54

we can all understand that. It's

52:57

hard to sit there and listen

52:59

to people's make claims that you

53:01

don't agree with about your family.

53:03

Arthur said he had been connected

53:05

to the White Estate for 52

53:07

years at this point. Quote, now

53:09

I don't claim to be an

53:11

authority. I don't claim to be

53:14

a scholar, but I've seen some

53:16

things. End quote. Someone asks if

53:18

it's true that Elowite gave out

53:20

copies of her manuscripts on doctrinal

53:22

matters and asked others to correct

53:24

them. Arthur said he could only

53:26

think of one example where this

53:28

happened and wonders if Bert Heloviac

53:31

wants to add another bit to

53:33

this answer. Arthur makes the good

53:35

nature joke that Bert had access

53:37

to the G.C. archives while Arthur

53:39

only has access to the white

53:41

estate. And then the audio cuts

53:43

out. That side of the tape

53:45

is done. And that's all we

53:48

get. Though we

53:50

don't have this on tape either,

53:52

it's apparently Beatrice Neal spoke on

53:54

Wednesday afternoon as well. Neil was

53:56

a New Testament professor at Union

53:59

College. She was the only woman

54:01

on the sanctuary review committee. Her

54:03

husband did attend, but he was

54:06

the one she might have been

54:08

referring to when she said, quote,

54:10

he thinks I'd better give up

54:12

on theology and I'd better put

54:15

on my apron and get back

54:17

into the kitchen, end quote. The

54:19

whole room laughed. I guess he

54:21

just had to be there to

54:24

find that funny. There were other

54:26

moments of levity. After Leslie Harding

54:28

made a comment about Hebrew's 10,

54:31

someone asked whether he was applying

54:33

verse 25 to November 2, 1844.

54:35

People laughed and carried on before

54:37

the speaker corrected themselves October 22,

54:40

1844. Now just before the evening

54:42

meal, Desagain stood to answer questions

54:44

on Wednesday. You can imagine people's

54:47

interest. After the tense exchange with

54:49

Neil Wilson on the previous day.

54:51

Would Dez use his quick mind

54:53

and sharp wit to strike back?

54:56

What he doubled down? What he

54:58

capitulate? How is Dez going to

55:00

handle this? What Dez obviously began

55:02

by acknowledging the elephant in the

55:05

room. He confessed to having misunderstood

55:07

Neil Wilson in what Dez called

55:09

Neil's final injunction the previous day.

55:12

Dez had thought that Neil was

55:14

telling him to give up his

55:16

views, and so Dez had replied

55:18

rather coolly to him. And again,

55:21

it's another example, I think, of

55:23

Des' misunderstanding the people that he

55:25

was answering questions from or talking

55:28

to on Tuesday. And again, maybe

55:30

that's a lack of sleep thing.

55:32

Maybe it's a stress thing. But

55:34

it seems that he was not

55:37

in sync with his audience on

55:39

Tuesday. And he's acknowledging it here,

55:41

at least as far as Neil

55:43

Wilson is concerned. Upon reflection, Dez

55:46

says that he now realized that

55:48

Neil was only asking him to

55:50

be prepared to keep quiet on

55:53

the issue if the brethren saw

55:55

no light in it. In other

55:57

words, if we get on a...

55:59

Glacier View, and we say, Dez,

56:02

we don't agree with you. Are

56:04

you going to keep it to

56:06

yourself? Or are you going to

56:09

continue on teaching what you think

56:11

is true? He would have responded,

56:13

he said, very differently, if he

56:15

had known that that's what Neil

56:18

was saying, more affirmatively. Of course,

56:20

in correcting one misunderstanding, he had

56:22

walked into another, as we will

56:24

see. To be clear. Dez said

56:27

he had no wish to crusade

56:29

on this issue. He didn't want

56:31

his views of the investigative judgment

56:34

to define him, which is rather

56:36

unfortunately ironic, as this is how

56:38

many Avenus remember him today. Rather,

56:40

quote, the everlasting gospel to me

56:43

is the most important of all

56:45

doctrines. On that, I love to

56:47

preach. When I preach any other

56:49

doctrine, it is only to reveal

56:52

the everlasting gospel. End quote. Dez

56:55

also said that he longed for

56:57

the insights of the brethren and

56:59

when I heard that I thought

57:01

This may sound like Dez is

57:03

humbling himself before church leaders, right?

57:05

Like teach me I long for

57:08

your wisdom But it contains a

57:10

sharp point and that's that was

57:12

my first take on this and

57:14

Jillian Ford confirmed that Dez said

57:16

that this was tongue-in-cheek. Dez wanted

57:18

others to study the sanctuary enough

57:20

to offer him serious solutions to

57:22

the problems he had identified, rather

57:25

than just taking pot shots at

57:27

his solutions. This was a constant

57:29

claim that he made through the

57:31

Ford Guiding Committee months, that he

57:33

was writing this manuscript to be...

57:35

studied for Glacier View, and he

57:37

wasn't getting enough feedback from people

57:39

who had jobs and lives, and

57:41

for some reason either were unwilling

57:44

or unable to devote the time

57:46

necessary to critique his manuscript. And

57:48

here he is at Glacier View,

57:50

saying the same thing. You know,

57:52

I'm identifying the problems, here are

57:54

my solutions, instead of criticizing my

57:56

solutions is not... being right, what

57:58

are your solutions? You solve it

58:01

for me, right? This is essentially

58:03

what he's trying to say. And

58:05

then Dez went back through ancient

58:07

history, talking about how he had

58:09

known for 35 years, quote, that

58:11

many of the ways we put

58:13

the sanctuary message will not stand.

58:15

And brethren, many of you have

58:18

come to me in the last

58:20

few days and told me that

58:22

light is dawning even here, that

58:24

there may be some truth to

58:26

this fact that the way we

58:28

have expressed our God-given sanctuary message

58:30

is not always the best way.

58:32

So I'd like to emphasize again,

58:35

I'm perfectly happy to accept the

58:37

counsel of the brethren as to

58:39

what I do on this topic.

58:41

I cannot change my convictions, but

58:43

I have no wish to shout

58:45

from abroad if the brethren decide

58:47

that this thing is going to

58:49

be kept in the something for

58:52

a while." End quote. I can't

58:54

quite make out that word, that's

58:56

something word, but you get the

58:58

idea of what he's saying. For

59:00

how long is... for a while?

59:02

That's what I wonder. He said

59:04

that he'd be very happy to

59:06

not shout from abroad if the

59:09

brethren decide that this thing is

59:11

going to be kept under wraps

59:13

for a while. How long is

59:15

for a while? Is Dez pledging

59:17

that he'll remain silent on this

59:19

issue for what, a year, two

59:21

years, three years, but it's not

59:23

going to be indefinite? Later on

59:26

in his statement, Dez hints at

59:28

our study not being complete, which

59:30

suggests that... He wanted, what he

59:32

wanted above all, was for the

59:34

church to see the problem that

59:36

he was pointing out and to

59:38

take over the search for a

59:40

solution as long as they are

59:43

of course committed to finding a

59:45

biblical solution based on sound exigetical

59:47

principles. Des was more than happy

59:49

to keep the lid on talking

59:51

or writing about the judgment so

59:53

long as the church was working

59:55

on the problem. But I think

59:57

it begs the question, what if

59:59

the church decides not to work

1:00:02

on the problem? Des also responded

1:00:04

to the insinuation that he lacked

1:00:06

pastoral care when handling his views.

1:00:08

And that's kind of a euphemism,

1:00:10

I don't know if that's the

1:00:12

right way of putting it, that,

1:00:14

you know, that ministers should not

1:00:16

err dirty laundry. That if you

1:00:19

really care about the church, you'll

1:00:21

protect the church. And so by

1:00:23

making his presentation on October 27,

1:00:25

1979, and airing... What he saw

1:00:27

is the evidence against the traditional

1:00:29

Adventist understanding in sanctuary, that Dez

1:00:31

was not exercising pastoral care. He

1:00:33

wasn't showing concern for the faith

1:00:36

of various church members, we'll put

1:00:38

it like that. And so he

1:00:40

responds to this. He mentioned that

1:00:42

he turned down opportunities to speak

1:00:44

about his views on the judgment.

1:00:46

Nor does he think his commentary

1:00:48

on Daniel detracts, as he puts

1:00:50

it, from the special message of

1:00:53

this church in the last days.

1:00:55

And he admits, quote, I have

1:00:57

tried to defend the Avonus tradition

1:00:59

on the sanctuary. I have published

1:01:01

hundreds of pages by our presses

1:01:03

on the topic over the period

1:01:05

of 22 years, end quote. Even

1:01:07

in the classroom, Dez says he

1:01:10

doesn't deal with the problems in

1:01:12

the depth that he did in

1:01:14

his Glacier View manuscript. What is

1:01:16

Dez saying? I have pastoral care,

1:01:18

I have good judgment, I could

1:01:20

have agitated on this an awful

1:01:22

lot and I didn't because I

1:01:24

was concerned that people would take

1:01:27

the problems that I'm pointing out

1:01:29

and it would hurt their faith

1:01:31

and I don't want to do

1:01:33

that. So he's saying I really

1:01:35

do have pastoral care, you don't

1:01:37

see it in what I've done,

1:01:39

you see it in what I

1:01:41

have refused to do, what I've

1:01:44

refused to say, and that I've

1:01:46

been a good soldier. I've tried

1:01:48

my best to defend the sanctuary

1:01:50

message. And finally, Dez told the

1:01:52

Sanctuary Review Committee that he has

1:01:54

received job offers from organizations outside

1:01:56

the church, and if he took

1:01:58

one of them, he wouldn't have

1:02:00

to work 18 hours a day

1:02:03

as he has done for the

1:02:05

Avenue Church for years. Dez had

1:02:07

worked for the church, he said,

1:02:09

ever since he left a newspaper

1:02:11

office. in the mid-1940s, and that,

1:02:13

as he put it, this is

1:02:15

where I want to be. Quote,

1:02:17

I will not go against conscience

1:02:20

in order to procure that, but

1:02:22

I do not believe my brother

1:02:24

and will ask me to go

1:02:26

against conscience. End quote. Now, Neil

1:02:28

Wilson heartily appreciated Dez's words here.

1:02:30

Spectrum's report had Neil Wilson saying,

1:02:32

quote, the statement Dez just made

1:02:34

brings great rejoicing to me. I

1:02:37

believe it is an answer to

1:02:39

prayer, end quote. But the Glacier

1:02:41

View recording didn't capture Neil saying

1:02:43

that. I'm not saying he didn't

1:02:45

say it, but he didn't capture

1:02:47

him saying that. What Neil does

1:02:49

say on the recording is, quote,

1:02:51

does I accept your statement at

1:02:54

full value, end quote. It's not

1:02:56

quite as enthusiastic a response as

1:02:58

the spectrum article makes it sound.

1:03:00

And this may be the first

1:03:02

and only time in history. That

1:03:04

spectrum makes a member of the

1:03:06

Wilson family sound better than they

1:03:08

actually were in real life. Anyways,

1:03:11

I'm not going to go into

1:03:13

that. On the recordings, Neil follows

1:03:15

up that statement that he accepts

1:03:17

Des's statement of full value. He

1:03:19

follows that up with a stern

1:03:21

warning that while the church allows

1:03:23

for different opinions and doesn't want

1:03:25

to be anyone's conscience... However, quote,

1:03:28

that freedom, that's my word, that

1:03:30

freedom also carries an enormous sacred

1:03:32

responsibility and we cannot take light

1:03:34

of this because... This church gives

1:03:36

latitude for individual personal interpretations. When

1:03:38

we agree to be a minister

1:03:40

or a teacher or one who

1:03:42

represents this church, it is not

1:03:45

only an agreement, not to say

1:03:47

certain things, but a commitment and

1:03:49

an agreement to preach, to teach,

1:03:51

and persuade others of the message

1:03:53

that this church has declared itself

1:03:55

to believe. And we cannot remain

1:03:57

silent on points. I think that

1:03:59

ought to be clear. I cannot

1:04:02

plead the Fifth Amendment. nonpositions of

1:04:04

clear doctrine that this church has

1:04:06

committed itself under God's guidance to

1:04:08

carry to the world. My concern

1:04:10

is not, Dez, is not, that

1:04:12

you only remain silent on certain

1:04:14

things, but that you declare and

1:04:16

with conviction the truths and messages

1:04:18

that this church has indicated that

1:04:21

it has to carry to the

1:04:23

world." End quote. So perhaps Dez

1:04:25

thought he was conceding something here

1:04:27

by saying... Look,

1:04:29

if the Sanctuary Review Committee of

1:04:31

Prexad, whatever, asks me to be

1:04:34

silent on this issue, I will

1:04:36

be silent on this issue for

1:04:38

a while. And Neil is saying

1:04:41

silence is not good enough. As

1:04:43

a paid minister, as an educator

1:04:45

in the Seventh Day Avenue Church,

1:04:48

you should teach what we have

1:04:50

collectively said that we believe, and

1:04:52

not just remain silent on areas

1:04:54

you don't believe. You don't believe.

1:04:57

Now, in interest of being fair,

1:04:59

at the end of Neil's, I

1:05:01

guess, the other injunction, he did

1:05:04

say that Dez's affirmation that he

1:05:06

wanted to work for the church,

1:05:08

quote, brings rejoicing to me and

1:05:11

I'm accepting your statement at full

1:05:13

value, end quote. And that does

1:05:15

seem to be where Spectrum was

1:05:18

getting this from. But I think

1:05:20

it's important because... It comes after

1:05:22

his warning. And Neil is very,

1:05:24

what brings rejoicing to Neil is

1:05:27

very specifically its desistated desire to

1:05:29

continue working for the church. Because

1:05:31

I think to Neil that indicates

1:05:34

that Dez might be willing to

1:05:36

make a healthy compromise here in

1:05:38

order to maintain that employment, that

1:05:41

he's not wanting to throw that

1:05:43

away. So okay, this is something

1:05:45

we can work with. You want

1:05:48

to stay with us. You want

1:05:50

to stay with us. then eventually

1:05:52

we're going to talk about what

1:05:55

do you... got to do in

1:05:57

order to stay with us." Dez's

1:05:59

confession had been conciliatory, but of

1:06:01

course he had not just prostrated

1:06:04

himself before Neil. He didn't subject

1:06:06

himself to the will of his

1:06:08

brothers and sisters entirely, saying, hey,

1:06:11

tell me what to believe. Dez

1:06:13

still had his convictions. He wasn't

1:06:15

compromising on those. And however much

1:06:18

Neil rejoiced, his response didn't indicate

1:06:20

a willingness to yield. Now it

1:06:22

was Dez's turn to respond. And

1:06:25

finally, we have his response. This

1:06:27

was a critical moment at Glacier

1:06:29

View. Dez wanted the church to

1:06:31

study the judgment issue as he

1:06:34

had. Neil wanted Dez to predetermine

1:06:36

to abide by the Council of

1:06:38

Praxad, which to Neil meant having

1:06:41

to preach the investigative judgment, as

1:06:43

it was traditionally understood. Dez was

1:06:45

happy to agree to be quiet,

1:06:48

so long as the church understood

1:06:50

the problems of the judgment and

1:06:52

wanted to find a solution. But

1:06:55

Neil wasn't promising anything, whether or

1:06:57

not Dez was a team player.

1:06:59

would determine what happened next. And

1:07:01

I think that's what Neil was

1:07:04

after here. Neil wanted Dez to

1:07:06

pledge loyalty to the system no

1:07:08

matter the verdict. Will you abide

1:07:11

by the judgment of your peers?

1:07:13

Whether or not that judgment agrees

1:07:15

with you or not? Are you

1:07:18

still loyal to the system? To

1:07:20

the brotherhood? That's what Neil wanted

1:07:22

to find out. I'm not making

1:07:25

promises on the verdict. I just

1:07:27

want to make sure you're loyal

1:07:29

to the system because I think

1:07:32

for Neil, if you're not going

1:07:34

to be loyal to the system,

1:07:36

if you're not going to abide

1:07:38

by the judgment of your peers,

1:07:41

then all of this is for

1:07:43

nothing, right? For Dez, from his

1:07:45

perspective, I don't know that you

1:07:48

want to pledge a kind of

1:07:50

blind loyalty to the outcome, no

1:07:52

matter what it is, when it's

1:07:55

going to be... extremely painful for

1:07:57

you if it goes against you

1:07:59

when you're gonna feel like people

1:08:02

didn't really hear you and yet

1:08:04

render judgment on you. So Des

1:08:06

started with some strong language. I

1:08:08

mean strong language given the context,

1:08:11

okay? He didn't like swear it

1:08:13

everybody, although that would have been

1:08:15

hilarious. But anyways to have that

1:08:18

on tape. Anyway, so he begins

1:08:20

with saying quote. The church has

1:08:22

not really got its act together

1:08:25

on this matter." I just want

1:08:27

you to picture Dez standing looking

1:08:29

at Neil Wilson in the face

1:08:32

saying the church has not got

1:08:34

its act together. Yeah, that's some

1:08:36

boldness. He goes on quote, and

1:08:39

that has become very apparent the

1:08:41

last few days. For the past

1:08:43

few days there were expressed positions

1:08:45

that are very different, very very

1:08:48

different from the majority of our

1:08:50

published statements. The question of preaching

1:08:52

the traditional understanding of the investigative

1:08:55

judgment was nonsense to Dez. Avoness

1:08:57

weren't united in how they understood

1:08:59

this issue. This is what he

1:09:02

was trying to get Neil to

1:09:04

understand. Neil was operating, you remember,

1:09:06

Sunday night he said that he

1:09:09

wants consensus, he works towards consensus,

1:09:11

he doesn't want a 51, the

1:09:13

49 vote. He wants consensus. And

1:09:15

so in his mind... Whatever gets

1:09:18

decided by Prexad is going to

1:09:20

be the final judgment and that

1:09:22

decision by Prexad represents, I guess,

1:09:25

that consensus. And Dez has to

1:09:27

be willing to abide by a

1:09:29

consensus. And Dez's response to that

1:09:32

is... There is no consensus. Did

1:09:34

you not see the survey that

1:09:36

was conducted on Sunday night, where

1:09:39

20 or 30% depending on the

1:09:41

question of the people there don't

1:09:43

agree with the church's official positions?

1:09:46

Like there is no official position.

1:09:48

If 20 to 30%... of your

1:09:50

leaders, of your teachers, of your

1:09:52

pastors, of your administrators, don't actually

1:09:55

believe it. So how can you

1:09:57

tell me in the end, we've

1:09:59

all decided, who's we? Because I

1:10:02

know, I know, you know, I'm

1:10:04

speaking as Dez here, that a

1:10:06

sizable minority of the people included

1:10:09

in that we agree with me.

1:10:11

Right? So what does it mean

1:10:13

when you say we've decided that

1:10:16

is that you need to go

1:10:18

back to preaching this traditional understanding

1:10:20

of the investigative judgment? What is

1:10:22

the traditional understanding when you have

1:10:25

key leaders around the church who

1:10:27

don't believe that it's true? Avenus

1:10:29

weren't united in how they understood

1:10:32

this issue. And again, we're not

1:10:34

expecting a 100% unanimity here. I

1:10:36

don't think there's a... church around

1:10:39

that has ever had that kind

1:10:41

of unanimity, okay? But there were

1:10:43

a number of teachers and writers

1:10:46

who had these questions who wanted

1:10:48

to see them resolved, who believed

1:10:50

differently than the church teaches in

1:10:53

some of these doctrines. And does

1:10:55

said, quote, when we are going

1:10:57

to speak for the church, what

1:10:59

are we going to say? Well,

1:11:02

we say what was taught at

1:11:04

the seminary for 20 years or

1:11:06

10. What we say what leaders

1:11:09

have expressed here? what we say

1:11:11

what's in our tracks, there's a

1:11:13

wide divergence in some key areas

1:11:16

and that's why I'm so grateful

1:11:18

for a meeting of this nature

1:11:20

which helps us, which may help

1:11:23

us, to speak with a unified

1:11:25

voice." So when Dez says, when

1:11:27

Dez hears people saying, the church

1:11:29

believes this, the church believes that,

1:11:32

and he's thinking... What does that

1:11:34

mean? Is it only mean what's

1:11:36

voted that the general conference session?

1:11:39

Does it mean what's published in

1:11:41

our books? Does it mean what's

1:11:43

in our tracks? Does it mean

1:11:46

what's taught in the seminary? He

1:11:48

said because there's different views in

1:11:50

all of those places. So what

1:11:53

are we talking about when we

1:11:55

say the church believes... this, the

1:11:57

church officially believes this, and this

1:12:00

goes back to the 50s, right?

1:12:02

This goes back to the conversation

1:12:04

that the Avonus had with evangelicals

1:12:06

with Donald Gray Barnhouse and Walter

1:12:09

Martin, and Frum would tell them,

1:12:11

this is what the church believes,

1:12:13

and Martin would show up with

1:12:16

a book and say, yeah, but

1:12:18

just like a couple years ago,

1:12:20

right? Branson publishes this, and it's

1:12:23

the opposite of what you're saying

1:12:25

the church believes, and he was

1:12:27

the general conference precedent. Adventism

1:12:32

has never been this perfectly

1:12:34

united place. Even by the

1:12:36

standards of other churches, there's

1:12:39

always been a spectrum of

1:12:41

beliefs. And for a good

1:12:43

long time now, and I

1:12:45

know this because I've bought

1:12:47

these books, right? You can

1:12:50

find Southern Publishing Association, Review,

1:12:52

Pacific Press, publishing books on

1:12:54

various ways of understanding perfection.

1:12:56

Whether or not there's going

1:12:58

to be a final generation

1:13:01

that needs to be perfect,

1:13:03

whatever we mean by that,

1:13:05

you can find different views

1:13:07

on perfection. You can find

1:13:09

different views on how we

1:13:12

are saved. You can find

1:13:14

different views on last day

1:13:16

events among Avonus writers published

1:13:18

by the same Avonus publishers.

1:13:21

And so what's the official

1:13:23

view here? Right? Dez

1:13:25

also offered a reason why he presented

1:13:28

his paper on the problems with the

1:13:30

investigative judgment in October 27. And I

1:13:32

think this is a question a lot

1:13:34

of people wanted to know the answer

1:13:37

to. Because if you had that pastoral

1:13:39

care, why, you know, you're proud of

1:13:41

the fact that you didn't mention it

1:13:44

at this place and you didn't mention

1:13:46

it this place even though you were

1:13:48

asked to talk about it, why did

1:13:51

you talk about it then and there?

1:13:53

As Dez put it. What changed was

1:13:55

that Brinsmee's book 1844 re-examined came out

1:13:58

in the summer of 1979. And

1:14:00

Des figured as he he put it, quote, the

1:14:02

is out of the out of the bag,

1:14:04

end quote. Here in the in the States

1:14:06

we say the is out of the bag, but I like bag,

1:14:08

is out of the bag. I don't know why a tiger

1:14:10

would be in a bag any more than a cat would

1:14:12

be in a bag, in a and I guess a tiger is than

1:14:14

a cat of cat. in a bag.

1:14:16

And I guess a tiger is kind of

1:14:19

cat. Anyways, the problem with We're now out

1:14:21

in the open Des brings me. We're now out

1:14:23

in the open because it brings me.

1:14:25

He He was not safe in

1:14:27

completely suggesting an answer, but he

1:14:29

was fairly accurate in listing the the

1:14:31

problems." other words, the book came

1:14:33

out. Dez says, all right, Brinsmeade right.

1:14:36

highlighted the has highlighted the problems

1:14:38

with the I don't I don't like

1:14:40

his answers. he's right about what the right

1:14:42

about what the problems are. He's outlined them fairly

1:14:44

well. And now that this is out in the open.

1:14:46

open. Let's talk about talk about it. evidence we're

1:14:48

going to read Brinsmeade's book and they're going

1:14:51

to say, and what do we do now? to say,

1:14:53

wow. And Dez wanted to, to, I don't know, I

1:14:55

guess. say, all right, all right, let's

1:14:57

start having this conversation that we need to

1:14:59

have and work towards a resolution, and work

1:15:01

perhaps instead of ignoring, you know, that Brinsmead

1:15:03

ever said anything, we can't sweep it

1:15:05

back under the rug. said tiger is out

1:15:07

of the bag. we can't sweep it back under the

1:15:10

rug. The tiger is out of the bag. Now,

1:15:12

Dez thought he he could then

1:15:14

address problems without problems of being

1:15:16

accused of starting something. Because

1:15:18

Brinsmeade started it. it. Dez is just...

1:15:21

working towards resolution of it. of

1:15:23

it. Dez did take Des did

1:15:25

take responsibility for the fact that

1:15:28

he outlined those problems so forcefully in

1:15:30

his presentation that many people wouldn't

1:15:32

hear. wouldn't hear his solution

1:15:34

in the second half of in

1:15:36

the second half of his presentation

1:15:38

on October Now in hindsight I think we could in

1:15:40

hindsight I think we could probably persuade other

1:15:42

other reasons why that speech was a

1:15:45

mistake, I think for starters. starters... It's It's

1:15:47

different when somebody outside the church raises

1:15:49

problems versus somebody inside the church. inside

1:15:51

the church. It's different when someone

1:15:53

someone paid by the church

1:15:55

raises those problems. than than

1:15:58

somebody who's not being paid by the church. But

1:16:00

that's all water under the bridge

1:16:02

at this point. Jim Laundice spoke

1:16:04

up to say that he thought

1:16:07

that what he called the series

1:16:09

of unfortunate circumstances that led to

1:16:11

Dez's PUC talk illustrates the need

1:16:14

for the church to meet consistently

1:16:16

to deal with problems. And various

1:16:18

people said, amen to that. And

1:16:20

I think Laundice's perspective here is

1:16:23

well taken because, you know, he's

1:16:25

basically saying, we're fixating on what

1:16:27

Dez did on October 27th and

1:16:29

making this. presentation at PUC. Maybe

1:16:32

we should also be focused on

1:16:34

how did we let this get

1:16:36

so far that Dez gives this

1:16:39

presentation and finds himself in hot

1:16:41

water. How would we as thought

1:16:43

leaders as administrators in the church

1:16:45

just kind of ignore the problems

1:16:48

that Dez had been raising, the

1:16:50

problems that many other scholars shared,

1:16:52

and the problems that Brinsmead made

1:16:54

public. It's because we ignored them

1:16:57

for so long that we find

1:16:59

ourselves in this position. So instead

1:17:01

of, you know, purely looking at

1:17:04

Dez and saying, look what he

1:17:06

did, maybe we should ask, why

1:17:08

does this process, as church leaders,

1:17:10

not intervene earlier to try and

1:17:13

prevent these things from growing and

1:17:15

growing and growing, right? As long

1:17:17

as put it, and I'm going

1:17:20

to closely paraphrase him here. Quote,

1:17:22

this way a brings me to

1:17:24

whoever wants to start publishing can't

1:17:26

pull the rug out from under

1:17:29

us. And this way we could

1:17:31

diffuse explosive situations. This dialogue is

1:17:33

healthy. It's helpful. It creates unity

1:17:35

and trust. And if that's the

1:17:38

one thing that comes out of

1:17:40

this meeting, then we will have

1:17:42

taken a giant step in unity."

1:17:45

Ah, unity, see? He's speaking Neil

1:17:47

Wilson's language there. Unity

1:17:49

and trust is not the one

1:17:51

thing that emerges from Glacier View.

1:17:54

But I understand what he's saying.

1:17:56

I think it was a really

1:17:58

relevant point to Ray's at that

1:18:00

point, because it's not only true

1:18:02

with Brinsmee, right? We've just kind

1:18:04

of let this go on for

1:18:06

so long that it bears rotten

1:18:08

fruit. It can also be said

1:18:11

when it came to the Walter

1:18:13

Ray in discussion of Avonus' use

1:18:15

of sources, because Walter Ray was

1:18:17

another person, like Dez Ford, who

1:18:19

was trying to get people's attention

1:18:21

to listen to him and found

1:18:23

it hard to do, until he,

1:18:25

like Dez, About a year after

1:18:28

Dez, exactly a year after Dez,

1:18:30

makes a public statement and finds

1:18:32

himself in hot water. And of

1:18:34

course, Laundis doesn't know what Walter

1:18:36

Ray is about to do in

1:18:38

a few months, but the same

1:18:40

thing applies there. There's something about

1:18:42

this process that we ignore and

1:18:44

we ignore and we ignore and

1:18:47

then the thing blows up and

1:18:49

then we can't ignore it and

1:18:51

then we rush to resolve it

1:18:53

as expediently as possible. He's saying,

1:18:55

I think that process is broken.

1:18:57

And I'm reading into what he's

1:18:59

saying an awful lot. He didn't

1:19:01

say all of that, but I'm

1:19:04

extrapolating from that. Now we could

1:19:06

debate whether Dez should have given

1:19:08

that October 27th talk. That ultimately

1:19:10

led the Glacier View, but Lahn

1:19:12

just points out that it shouldn't

1:19:14

take Dez getting mired in controversy

1:19:16

before the church is ready to

1:19:18

listen. By his

1:19:20

own admission, Dez had been wrestling

1:19:23

with these issues for decades, not

1:19:25

as a troublemaker, but as a

1:19:27

sincere scholar trying to make sense

1:19:29

of the investigative judgment. Why did

1:19:32

it take so long for scholars

1:19:34

and administrators to gather to hear

1:19:36

him out and try and solve

1:19:38

these problems? And that's a fair

1:19:40

question. And you may sit there

1:19:43

and think, well, why should one

1:19:45

individual's demand to be heard? necessitate

1:19:47

the church clearing out space and

1:19:49

time for that person to be

1:19:52

heard. Like how would the how

1:19:54

would church leaders ever get anything

1:19:56

done, right? But the reality is

1:19:58

is that these concerns were were

1:20:01

known. and shared by more people

1:20:03

than just Desmond Ford. But there

1:20:05

was no, there was no space,

1:20:07

there was no opportunity for them

1:20:09

to get together and say, oh

1:20:12

yeah, you see things this way

1:20:14

too. Let's get together and talk

1:20:16

about this and study it. Let's

1:20:18

get all of our church scholars

1:20:21

together because this is a serious

1:20:23

issue. This is not about Desmond

1:20:25

Ford's personal quirky views that he

1:20:27

wants everyone else to hear, okay?

1:20:29

as a pastor or elder in

1:20:32

a local church, there's always somebody

1:20:34

who wants, who thinks they have

1:20:36

the truth that the conference, that

1:20:38

the division, that the general conference

1:20:41

needs to hear. And oftentimes, it's

1:20:43

a little wacky, okay? This is

1:20:45

not one of those things. This

1:20:47

is a sincere Bible scholar who

1:20:49

has come to some exegetical problems,

1:20:52

to some historical problems, and he

1:20:54

needs help. sorting them out. And

1:20:56

the problems in Daniel Committee that

1:20:58

met in the 60s ostensibly was

1:21:01

to help untangle some of this,

1:21:03

not because of Ford, but because

1:21:05

of other people raising this issue.

1:21:07

And church leadership at that time,

1:21:09

as Neil Wilson admitted on Sunday

1:21:12

night, was not terribly interested in

1:21:14

seeing that process all the way

1:21:16

through. The reports were never released.

1:21:18

It just kind of ended, it

1:21:21

petered out. It was like, oh,

1:21:23

I guess we're done now. We

1:21:25

didn't really get anywhere. There was

1:21:27

really no enthusiasm on behalf of

1:21:29

the church to see it through.

1:21:32

And it makes you wonder. If

1:21:34

the general conference presidents who were

1:21:36

around when that committee, when the

1:21:38

problems in Daniel Committee was active,

1:21:41

and it was figure, I don't

1:21:43

know exactly when it ended if

1:21:45

Pearson was president or not at

1:21:47

that precise moment, but... And maybe

1:21:49

he's the one that shut it

1:21:52

down. I don't recall off the

1:21:54

top of my head. But if

1:21:56

those general conference presidents had seen

1:21:58

the value of it, had said

1:22:01

They're solving a problem that may

1:22:03

come back to haunt us in

1:22:05

the future. Let's give them whatever

1:22:07

they need to sort this out.

1:22:09

Would we even be having this

1:22:12

conversation about Glacier View and Desmond

1:22:14

Ford? How would that have changed

1:22:16

the trajectory of the Seventh Day

1:22:18

Avenist Church? We don't have the

1:22:21

answer to that, but it could

1:22:23

have saved potentially a lot of

1:22:25

problems. And

1:22:27

I, you know, in my feeble

1:22:29

imagination, I learned a new phrase

1:22:32

the other day to say that,

1:22:34

you know, I'm not the brightest

1:22:36

bulb, it's the wheel is spinning,

1:22:39

but the hamster is dead. Okay?

1:22:41

That's me. And this is a

1:22:43

risky game we play when we

1:22:46

try to imagine historical outcomes. But

1:22:48

I can imagine if that committee

1:22:50

had sincerely wrestled with things and

1:22:52

found some helpful ways of understanding.

1:22:55

the judgment and all these sort

1:22:57

of things. Maybe they found a

1:22:59

better biblical foundation for it or

1:23:02

whatnot. I can imagine more positive

1:23:04

outcomes than negative ones for how

1:23:06

that would have impacted Adventist history.

1:23:09

Now, I guess it's possible. It

1:23:11

could have made things worse. You

1:23:13

know, who knows what would have

1:23:16

happened. But I can imagine very

1:23:18

many of those scenarios. I can

1:23:20

only imagine, I can largely imagine

1:23:23

positive outcomes. Again, it's like Ellen

1:23:25

White with sources, this is a

1:23:27

thing that was known for a

1:23:29

long, long, long time, did very

1:23:32

little about it, and I think

1:23:34

we're seeing constant reminders, beginning in

1:23:36

the 70s, especially here in 1980,

1:23:39

this pivotal year, seeing these reminders

1:23:41

with Walter Ray, with Desmond Ford,

1:23:43

that when we don't deal with

1:23:46

theological thorns, they tend to cause

1:23:48

infections and the whole body suffers.

1:23:51

And we need to be

1:23:54

more proactive about solving these

1:23:56

things, about identifying problems, not

1:23:58

taking every... person's pet theory

1:24:00

seriously, you know, and taking

1:24:03

up valuable bandwidth from our

1:24:05

scholars, but being more proactive

1:24:07

about seeing things that need

1:24:09

to be addressed before they

1:24:12

become bigger things. All right,

1:24:14

well, with all that said,

1:24:16

Jim Laundice did have a

1:24:18

question for Ford, and I'm

1:24:21

reasonably sure it's Jim Laundice.

1:24:24

Who asked him what do you

1:24:26

mean by saying? Elowite has pastoral

1:24:28

authority not doctrinal authority? What is

1:24:30

pastoral authority? And again, this sounds

1:24:33

exactly like the question we had

1:24:35

on Tuesday, right? This is why

1:24:37

when I say I think it

1:24:39

was Jim Laundice I I Read

1:24:42

some reports that Bob Olson asked

1:24:44

a very similar question. Maybe that

1:24:46

was him on Tuesday. I don't

1:24:48

know sounds like multiple people ants

1:24:51

asked this very question of what

1:24:53

does mean when he says the

1:24:55

Elowite had pastoral authority not canonical

1:24:57

authority or whatever. Does that mean

1:25:00

Ellen White is just around to

1:25:02

teach us how to pray and

1:25:04

pat us on the head, you

1:25:06

know, and keep us going? Is

1:25:09

that what a pastor does? Anyways,

1:25:11

Dez agreed that Ellen White had

1:25:13

teaching authority, but that she should

1:25:15

never be used for the basis

1:25:17

of doctrine. And as an example,

1:25:20

Dez credited Ellen White with helping

1:25:22

him understand second thessalingance to that...

1:25:24

No biblical commentary could help explain

1:25:26

to him back when he was

1:25:29

in Manchester doing his second doctorate.

1:25:31

Fred Veltman understood Dez as saying

1:25:33

that Ellen White could have a

1:25:35

doctoral authority so long as her

1:25:38

writings are not used to establish

1:25:40

a church doctrine. And all of

1:25:42

this I think is just very

1:25:44

clumsy. What is a pastoral authority?

1:25:47

What is a doctrinal authority that

1:25:49

can't be used to establish church

1:25:51

doctrine? I think we need to

1:25:53

cut through the weeds and speak

1:25:56

plainly. And again, maybe you all

1:25:58

understand what they're saying, and I'm

1:26:00

the dense one. As I said,

1:26:02

the wheel is spinning, but the

1:26:05

hamster is dead. Des is trying

1:26:07

to explain how How Ellen White

1:26:09

can still be used by God

1:26:11

and be given a prophetic gift

1:26:14

even though she is wrong about

1:26:16

some things, even though she borrowed

1:26:18

from other writers. Saying that Ellen

1:26:20

White functions as a kind of

1:26:23

inspired pastor was Dez's solution in

1:26:25

his October 27 presentation, but of

1:26:27

course it brings with it a

1:26:29

lot of questions. What does that

1:26:32

even mean? In the exchange with

1:26:34

Laundice, Dez hints that he would

1:26:36

be open for a better word

1:26:38

to describe Ellen White's role. He

1:26:41

really wasn't hung up on using

1:26:43

the word pastoral authority. He was

1:26:45

only trying to find a way

1:26:47

of explaining that her role was

1:26:50

non-canonical. That is, she isn't an

1:26:52

additional book of the Bible. We

1:26:54

don't look at her the same

1:26:56

way we look at the Bible,

1:26:58

which is, of course, how many

1:27:01

Avenis used her, and I'm sure

1:27:03

that stopped happening, right? With apologies

1:27:05

to Dez, I certainly don't want

1:27:07

to speak for him, but I

1:27:10

think the distinction he's trying to

1:27:12

get at is to think of

1:27:14

Ellen White as a theological authority,

1:27:16

but not a doctrinal authority. At

1:27:19

least that's how I would put

1:27:21

it. That is, she can be

1:27:23

a reliable source of theology. She

1:27:25

can teach us about God, but

1:27:28

that theology is not the basis.

1:27:30

of Adventist doctrine. Only biblical theology

1:27:32

is the basis of Adventist doctrine.

1:27:34

And by doctrine in this case,

1:27:37

I'm referring to, we'll call them,

1:27:39

essential theological beliefs to which the

1:27:41

community of believers must adhere, right?

1:27:43

It forms the identity, the basis

1:27:46

for our community. Keith Parmenter, Australasian

1:27:48

Division President affirmed his friendship with

1:27:50

Dez in a question and parroting

1:27:52

Neil Wilson, urged Dez to quote,

1:27:55

Listen to and accept our counsel,

1:27:57

lay your views aside." Like Wilson,

1:27:59

Parmenter told Dez that silence was

1:28:01

not enough. And I don't know

1:28:04

why. Parment arose to say the

1:28:06

exact same things Neil Wilson had

1:28:08

just said earlier, but it didn't

1:28:10

add anything. as far as I

1:28:13

can tell, to the conversation, except

1:28:15

to signal that he stood shoulder

1:28:17

to shoulder with the General Conference

1:28:19

President. Perhaps realizing that he didn't

1:28:22

actually ask a question during Q&A

1:28:24

time, parmenter rather lamely threw one

1:28:26

out, quote, is there any shift

1:28:28

in your position, and quote, from

1:28:31

your Black Daniel commentary to this

1:28:33

Glacier View manuscript, which Des managed

1:28:35

to answer very succinctly, no. Or

1:28:37

perhaps the question wasn't as lame

1:28:40

as I said that it was,

1:28:42

for it supported the storyline that

1:28:44

Dez doesn't change, doesn't listen to

1:28:46

others, won't change. After dinner, Bert

1:28:48

Heloviac read a paper about the

1:28:51

days of Albian Ballinger at the

1:28:53

turn of the 20th century, talked

1:28:55

about him or mentioned him earlier.

1:28:57

Bert worked in the General Conference's

1:29:00

archive statistics and research department, which

1:29:02

he would later run, while his

1:29:04

wife Mary... was Richard Hamill's administrative

1:29:06

assistant. So the whole Heloviac family

1:29:09

were at Battle Creek, including their

1:29:11

13-year-old daughter Kendra, 10-year-old son Brent,

1:29:13

who were the only children present

1:29:15

besides Luke Ford. Kendra remembered it

1:29:18

as a family vacation for us

1:29:20

because the adults were tied up

1:29:22

in the meetings and they had

1:29:24

the entire camp at Glacier View

1:29:27

Ranch to themselves. On one occasion,

1:29:29

the three children were splashing around

1:29:31

in the pool. while Bill Shea

1:29:33

was apparently working on his tan.

1:29:36

Kendra suspected that he was skipping

1:29:38

a meeting because no other adults

1:29:40

were wandering about. Bill recognized the

1:29:42

Heloviac kids, but pointed to the

1:29:45

oldest boy and asked, who are

1:29:47

you? Luke Ford replied, quote, I'm

1:29:49

the son of the man, you're

1:29:51

going to burn at the stake,

1:29:54

end quote. Heloviac's paper was called

1:29:56

pioneers, pantheus, and progressives, which I

1:29:58

love the alliteration. A.F. Ballinger in

1:30:00

Divergent Paths to the Sanctuary. His

1:30:03

paper examined three camps of Adventists

1:30:05

in the 1890s. to the turn

1:30:07

of the 20th century around that

1:30:09

time. Elowite was in the progressive

1:30:12

camp, if you're curious, but Heloviac

1:30:14

was appropriately anxious that people don't

1:30:16

run away with that thought of

1:30:18

Elowite being a progressive and it

1:30:21

could mean all sorts of things.

1:30:23

She was a progressive in the

1:30:25

context of what he's describing in

1:30:27

his paper. Heloviac made I think

1:30:29

a crucial... observation halfway through his

1:30:32

paper. He says, quote, one of

1:30:34

the tragedies of the period we

1:30:36

have been examining is the loss

1:30:38

the church sustained when the dynamic

1:30:41

ministers of the 1890s subverted its

1:30:43

truths. The apostases of the pantheus

1:30:45

served to partially eclipse certain of

1:30:47

the advanced truths that they held,

1:30:50

end quote. Now I thought this

1:30:52

was an interesting observation because A,

1:30:54

he recognizes that these folks were

1:30:56

dynamic ministers. and that the church

1:30:59

lost them because they subverted its

1:31:01

truths. They went astray. But he

1:31:03

follows that up with this idea

1:31:05

that even though the pantheists apostasy,

1:31:08

they left the faith, they haven't

1:31:10

as faith, well, it served to

1:31:12

partially eclipse certain of the advanced

1:31:14

truths that they held. In other

1:31:17

words, the pantheists weren't all wrong.

1:31:19

And the problem is... when they

1:31:21

did what they did to leave

1:31:23

the church, however they left the

1:31:26

church, what happened was that advanced

1:31:28

truths that he describes kind of

1:31:30

got left by the wayside, kind

1:31:32

of got discredited because of who

1:31:35

had believed them. And so he's

1:31:37

warning of a couple of different

1:31:39

dangers here that I think is

1:31:41

very prescient. A. we need to

1:31:44

be mindful of the loss. of

1:31:46

our dynamic ministers, okay, and you

1:31:48

have to be thinking about Desfor

1:31:50

just sitting there. It's a very

1:31:53

dynamic minister. We should be mindful

1:31:55

of this, like it does not

1:31:57

help the church when it's dynamic

1:31:59

minister. are lost. He calls it

1:32:02

a tragedy. But he also notes

1:32:04

how there's a tendency of the

1:32:06

church in getting rid of these

1:32:08

apostatizing heretics in their midst as

1:32:11

they tend to throw the baby

1:32:13

out with the bathwater. These people

1:32:15

are not all wrong. They're not

1:32:17

all wrong. And I wonder if,

1:32:19

you know, what's going through Bertoloviac's

1:32:22

mind when he says something like

1:32:24

this. that it hurts the church

1:32:26

in two ways. A, they're deprived

1:32:28

of these dynamic ministers, they're deprived

1:32:31

of their gifts, and B, the

1:32:33

church is deprived of the actual

1:32:35

truths that those people held before

1:32:37

they left or were kicked out

1:32:40

or whatever, because now they're associated

1:32:42

with that person, and we don't

1:32:44

want to do that, because so-and-so

1:32:46

believed that, and they were a

1:32:49

pantheist, right? So, anyways, things to

1:32:51

think about. if you're sitting there

1:32:53

at Glacier View. And even today,

1:32:55

it's an excellent eye-opening paper that

1:32:58

I think is well worth your

1:33:00

time. After Bert Heloviac's paper, Roy

1:33:02

Adams made a presentation based on

1:33:04

his doctoral work on the sanctuary,

1:33:07

Adams' dissertation completed the same month

1:33:09

as Glacier View. I mean, talk

1:33:11

about timing. Traced the sanctuary theology

1:33:13

of your eyes, Smith, Albion Ballinger,

1:33:16

and M.L. Andreasin. The Great Dane

1:33:18

is back, baby! I believe he

1:33:20

presented an abbreviated version of his

1:33:22

dissertation at Glacier View because at

1:33:25

least one witness notes that he

1:33:27

only casually mentioned Emma Andreas and

1:33:29

so it's not like he divided

1:33:31

it up in the three equal

1:33:34

parts but maybe we should just

1:33:36

have him on the podcast sometime

1:33:38

and ask him what he presented.

1:33:40

Ever since he's been publishing books

1:33:43

defending the sanctuary you can find