0:00

What if landing your dream job requires

0:02

more than just the right resume?

0:04

The latest science suggests that

0:06

understanding and developing your

0:09

personality traits might be the secret

0:11

weapon that sets you apart in today's

0:13

competitive workforce. Welcome to the Afford

0:15

Anything podcast, the show that understands

0:18

you can afford anything but not

0:20

everything. Every choice carries a tradeoff.

0:22

This show covers five pillars. Financial

0:25

psychology, increasing your income, investing real

0:27

estate and entrepreneurship. It's double-I-fire. And

0:29

today's episode focuses on that first

0:31

letter F, Financial Psychology, as we

0:34

are joined by Olga Kazan, a

0:36

staff writer at the Atlantic and

0:38

the author of a book on

0:41

the Science of Personality Change, called

0:43

Me But Better. In honor of the F

0:45

of double I fire, financial psychology,

0:47

we're going to talk about the

0:49

big five personality traits and how

0:51

they influence success, including financial success.

0:53

And we'll explore how changing your personality

0:56

can lead to better outcomes in

0:58

career advancement, entrepreneurship, and overall well-being

1:00

will touch on increasing your income

1:02

as well, when we talk about how

1:05

certain personality traits correlate with higher

1:07

earnings. So if you're interested in

1:09

the psychology of making more money,

1:11

you'll enjoy today's episode. Olga,

1:14

welcome. Yeah, thanks so much

1:16

for having me. Thank you for

1:18

being here. Olga, what is personality?

1:20

Personality is the thoughts, feelings, and behaviors

1:22

that come most naturally to you. And

1:25

I would add a twist on that,

1:27

which is that they serve some purpose

1:29

in your life, in that they help

1:31

you meet your goals. Oh, but goals

1:34

are constantly in a state of flux.

1:36

So does that mean personality is also

1:38

in a state of flux? I would

1:40

argue that your personality is in a

1:42

state of flux, and it does at

1:45

times adjust to help you meet your

1:47

goals, which, as you point out, can

1:49

also change in life. Right. I'm thinking

1:51

about people that I know who

1:53

have been relatively the same for 25

1:56

plus years. I know certain people who

1:58

are shy, and they've always been

2:00

shy and sometimes they have goals

2:02

of making more money at work

2:04

but that requires being better at

2:06

sales and their shy nature inhibits

2:08

that. So there are times that

2:10

personality seems to also work against your

2:13

goals and it also seems to be

2:15

a little bit fixed at least anecdotally.

2:17

Yeah a lot of people do say

2:19

that they're like I haven't changed I've

2:21

been exactly the same since I was

2:23

a little kid I will say that

2:26

that's pretty unusual most of us do

2:28

change over time the changes might be

2:30

kind of subtle so you might not

2:32

notice it in someone else they might

2:34

not even notice it in themselves but

2:36

if you've ever done the thing where you

2:39

look up like a Facebook status update

2:41

that you posted you know 10 years

2:43

ago 12 years ago and you're like

2:45

what was I thinking you have changed as

2:47

a person And probably those people that

2:49

you have in mind did change as

2:51

well. But one reason why they might

2:53

have goals that their personality is not

2:55

getting them closer toward or they feel

2:58

like it's just in their nature, it's

3:00

sort of inhibiting whatever goal they might

3:02

have, they might have that desire to

3:04

change in that way, but they actually

3:06

are not doing anything about it. So.

3:09

Kind of a key concept of personality

3:11

change is that you have to follow

3:13

through, meaning you have to actually do

3:15

stuff to change your personality. Oh, and

3:18

in a moment I'm going to ask,

3:20

what are the types of things

3:22

that people can do to change

3:24

their personality? But staying on

3:26

the topic of just defining

3:28

what we're talking about first,

3:30

your personality can inhibit your

3:32

goals, other than pursuit of goals,

3:35

does personality matter? determine our

3:37

happiness and our success in

3:39

life. There's five personality traits

3:42

and higher levels on all

3:44

of those traits tend to

3:46

correlate with better well-being, better

3:49

relationships, better success at school

3:51

and work, even better health

3:54

and longevity. So it is

3:56

something where you should want

3:59

your personality. to help you in

4:01

life, and in fact, if your personality

4:03

is a certain way, you do tend

4:05

to be slightly more successful. All right,

4:07

so you mention that there are

4:09

five personality traits. Can we go

4:11

over those five? Yeah, so you

4:13

can remember them with the acronym

4:16

Ocean. The first is openness

4:18

to experiences, which is like

4:20

imaginativeness and creativity. which is

4:22

sort of like ambition, productivity,

4:25

organization, timeliness, things like that.

4:27

Extroversion, which some of us

4:30

might be familiar with, which

4:32

is sort of like being

4:34

outgoing and cheerful and active,

4:37

there's agreeableness, which is being

4:39

warm and empathetic toward others

4:41

and also trusting of others. For

4:44

N, which is a bad thing,

4:46

the other ones are good things.

4:48

Neuroticism is basically depression and anxiety,

4:50

and the opposite of neuroticism is

4:52

called emotional stability. You mentioned

4:54

earlier that having high scores on

4:56

all five correlate with more success

4:58

in life. Is that also true

5:00

for neuroticism? No, so for neuroticism,

5:02

you actually want to be low

5:04

in it. A lot of us

5:06

think that someone who's kind of...

5:08

depressed or moody or angsty is

5:10

also like a deep thinker and

5:12

a brilliant genius. But actually neuroticism,

5:14

it can really cloud your thoughts

5:16

and your judgment. It actually gets

5:19

in the way of productivity and

5:21

of doing what you want because

5:23

you're always second-guessing yourself, you're always seeing

5:25

the negatives of things. So you actually

5:27

want to be low on neuroticism, you

5:29

want to be high on the others.

5:31

But then the ocean. acronym falls apart. I

5:33

know, I know. If you were to flip it,

5:35

right? I wish there was a word with two

5:37

E's, but all the rest of the letters in

5:39

ocean, because then they could really redo that acronym.

5:42

Can you talk about how the

5:44

big five personality traits were originally

5:46

developed in the research? The

5:48

big five really come from trait

5:50

theory, which it just means that

5:52

people's personalities consist of traits of

5:54

adjectives. Starting in the early

5:56

20th century, various researchers, starting with

5:59

Gordon Alport. pulled words from the

6:01

dictionary that could be used to describe

6:03

people. At first they had thousands of

6:05

words like this and then they would

6:07

narrow them down and narrow them down

6:09

and narrow them down until there weren't

6:11

any synonyms in the list. So one of

6:13

the versions, I think there was like

6:16

a 16 trait theory at one point

6:18

and it had like perfectionism or something,

6:20

but that's a lot like conscientiousness. What

6:22

they basically did is they went until

6:24

there were no more synonyms, so none

6:26

of the big five are synonyms with

6:28

one another. they're all like completely distinct.

6:31

And as researchers were kind of quizzing

6:33

people about their personalities and sort of

6:36

asking like, okay, do you tend to

6:38

be like this or like this? They

6:40

sort of found that people were basically

6:42

describing the big five, that they were

6:45

like saying, I really love going to

6:47

parties, but I'm also really anxious and

6:49

I love to try new things. they're describing

6:52

the big five there. They kind of

6:54

just settled on the big five in

6:56

the late 80s, early 90s, and have

6:59

run with it since. But Alport's research,

7:01

I mean, that was back during the

7:03

Ottoman Empire, wasn't it? It was like

7:05

in the 19 teens and like early

7:08

20s. Right. Yeah. So it took 60

7:10

years before they really settled on it?

7:12

Yeah. That's because there was just so

7:15

many different theories of personality and... At

7:17

the same time, you had a bunch

7:19

of stuff that was like kind of

7:21

pseudo-scientific. So things like the Rorschach test

7:23

became popular in this intervening time where

7:25

they thought you could determine what a

7:27

person's like by showing them like a

7:30

really confusing picture like an inkblot in

7:32

this case and being like, what do

7:34

you think this is? And then if

7:36

someone says, it's my mother, then they're

7:38

this way or that way, Freud had

7:40

theories about child sexual impulses, that didn't

7:42

really pan out. And so there were

7:44

a different competing competing competing. theories

7:46

about personality, but none of them

7:49

really stood up or held up

7:51

with repeated testing and studies like

7:53

the Big Five did. All right. My

7:55

understanding was that the original idea

7:57

was that the Big Five traits

7:59

are fit. Yeah, that was

8:01

one theory at the beginning. There

8:03

was one study that was very

8:05

influential early on called set like

8:07

plaster. So essentially this idea that

8:09

once you are a person, you're

8:11

set like plaster and you never

8:14

change. More recent research has started

8:16

to question that idea. So there's

8:18

one concept which is that we

8:20

all change over time. So in

8:22

studies that follow people. over decades

8:24

and decades, most of the people

8:26

in that study will have changed

8:28

on at least one personality trait

8:30

over the course of their lives.

8:32

It could be for different reasons,

8:34

it could be because of life

8:36

events, it could be because of

8:38

environments that they find themselves in,

8:40

but most of us do end

8:42

up changing a little bit, even

8:44

if we don't try to, even

8:46

if we're just living life not

8:49

doing anything in particular about our

8:51

personality. Now, if you actually try

8:53

to change things like therapy, medication,

8:55

new friend group, going to college,

8:57

changing your career, doing things that

8:59

actively change your personality can make

9:01

it change even faster. You mentioned

9:03

earlier that in order to change

9:05

an aspect of your personality intentionally

9:07

so that it's more aligned with

9:09

the pursuit of your goals, you

9:11

have to be really focused on

9:13

doing it with intention. So I

9:15

want to talk about how specifically

9:17

to change each element such that

9:19

it's more conducive towards meeting your

9:21

goals. Because I know a lot

9:24

of the people who are listening

9:26

to this right now have particular

9:28

financial goals or career goals or

9:30

just life goals, but they may

9:32

find that elements of their personality

9:34

actually inhibit their goals or their

9:36

desires. And so I want to

9:38

kind of break down each one

9:40

of the big five in terms

9:42

of how a person listening to

9:44

this can change. their orientation in

9:46

that if they want to. And

9:48

let's just go in order of

9:50

the ocean acronym, starting with openness

9:52

to experience. So first, can you

9:54

describe what does it look like

9:57

if a person is low on...

9:59

openness to experience? Low on openness

10:01

would be, hey, do you want

10:03

to try a new restaurant tonight

10:05

instead of the same place we

10:07

always go? No, no, I like

10:09

the same old place. Hey, do

10:11

you want to check out that

10:13

new foreign film? Everyone's like talking

10:15

about it. It's really avant-garde. No,

10:17

let's just watch like the latest

10:19

Avengers movie. Hey, do you want

10:21

to maybe go to this country

10:23

where we don't speak the language

10:25

and like everything super new and

10:27

unusual? No, I don't think so.

10:29

That wouldn't be right for me.

10:32

not wanting new experiences. And how

10:34

does that play out? Let's say

10:36

that there's a person who wants

10:38

new experiences in certain dimensions or

10:40

certain domains, like maybe they're very

10:42

open to traveling internationally, but the

10:44

idea of starting a side hustle

10:46

completely freaks them out because even

10:48

that toe-dip in the water of

10:50

entrepreneurship just feels a little bit

10:52

too radical, or vice versa. How

10:54

do we... assess where we stand

10:56

when openness might be domain specific.

10:58

Oh, that's interesting. You know, I

11:00

did talk to someone like this.

11:02

She was very open to things

11:04

generally loved art and like music

11:07

and kind of a creative, fun-loving

11:09

person, but she was an extremely

11:11

picky eater even as an adult.

11:13

Very, very limited diet, very beige,

11:15

like potatoes, no fish or sushi

11:17

or anything like super interesting or

11:19

like... kind of creative foods or

11:21

anything like that. This is as

11:23

an adult, so not just like

11:25

the five-year-olds eating like chicken nuggets.

11:27

And really what changed, like the

11:29

thing that inspired her to change

11:31

is that she fell in love

11:33

with someone who was like a

11:35

huge foodie and he always wanted

11:37

to go to restaurants and they

11:39

were always restaurants where there was

11:42

like nothing that she could eat.

11:44

And so she sort of just

11:46

started to question like, okay, is

11:48

it true that there's nothing here

11:50

I can really eat? All of

11:52

this would be disgusting to me.

11:54

And then she kind of just

11:56

started really slow. Like you said,

11:58

dip your toe in and that's

12:00

really what I would recommend for

12:02

someone in that situation is just

12:04

kind of a small foray into

12:06

the unknown. So if you're really

12:08

really uncomfortable with something, you don't

12:10

have to jump into the deep

12:12

end and do the most extreme

12:14

version of that. You can kind

12:17

of inch your way into it

12:19

to see if it gradually becomes

12:21

more comfortable. So what she did

12:23

is like she would make foods

12:25

that she was very unfamiliar with

12:27

and uncomfortable with. in kind of

12:29

new and like tastier ways or

12:31

she would like mix whatever broccoli

12:33

or like some vegetable that she

12:35

didn't like into pasta or something

12:37

that she did like and kind

12:39

of start to introduce it to

12:41

herself that way kind of gradually

12:43

and so now like I mean

12:45

when I met up with her

12:47

we ate at this restaurant where

12:49

we had like bone marrow and

12:52

octopus and crazy cheeses and pighead

12:54

sausage and stuff. So she's way

12:56

on the other end now because

12:58

she gradually built up her tolerance

13:00

for the unknown. And that's what

13:02

I would really recommend for anyone

13:04

who's kind of like, I don't

13:06

know about this, I'm curious about

13:08

it, but it kind of scares

13:10

me. Right. How would that apply?

13:12

So I'm thinking about the world

13:14

of finance and for certain things

13:16

like, let's say, buying an investment

13:18

property. There's such a high barrier

13:20

to doing so that even entering

13:22

the field feels like a leap

13:24

rather than a step. What would

13:27

a person do in a situation

13:29

like that if, let's say they

13:31

want to be open to it,

13:33

maybe they have a spouse who's

13:35

really excited about it, but they

13:37

themselves are just, they're low on

13:39

the openness in that specific domain?

13:41

Yeah, let's say financially you're fine

13:43

and you have this money set

13:45

aside for the investment property in

13:47

a way that would not... hurt

13:49

your financial situation if you weren't

13:51

able to get it rented out

13:53

or something for a couple months,

13:55

right? So I'm assuming that the

13:57

finances are okay. So what I

13:59

would do in that situation, and

14:02

this is something that I found

14:04

really worked for people who were

14:06

trying to learn new things or

14:08

kind of brought in their horizons

14:10

is I would actually learn from

14:12

other people who have done the

14:14

same thing. This is something that

14:16

I went into with people who

14:18

were trying to become more conscientious.

14:20

What they kept running into is

14:22

that they were sort of like,

14:24

I have no idea where to

14:26

begin. I don't know where to

14:28

start. One guy really wanted to

14:30

go to grad school but he

14:32

didn't know how to or present

14:34

them in a paper. So he

14:37

had to learn how to study.

14:39

And what he did is he

14:41

learned techniques from other students who

14:43

were in a similar situation as

14:45

him. And this has actually been

14:47

borne out in research where if

14:49

you learn a strategy for how

14:51

to do something from someone else,

14:53

you're actually more likely to be

14:55

successful than if someone just tells

14:57

you how to do it. The

14:59

researchers like, here's how you make

15:01

an exercise plan versus if you

15:03

go to your friend and say.

15:05

what's an exercise plan that worked

15:07

for you, that second one is

15:09

more likely to be successful for

15:12

whatever reason. Because as you're learning

15:14

those strategies, you're thinking about how

15:16

to apply it in your own

15:18

situation. So what I would do

15:20

is I would talk to other

15:22

people who have investment properties and

15:24

see how they do it. And

15:26

then if you're still feeling really

15:28

scared, you know, I would do

15:30

again the minor version of that.

15:32

So like, maybe a smaller place

15:34

than... some beautiful like dream home,

15:36

you know, maybe some place that's

15:38

like very very risk, low risk

15:40

that'll definitely be rented or definitely,

15:42

you know, turn a profit. Right.

15:44

Tell me about what you did

15:47

when you wanted to become more

15:49

open to experiences. So for me,

15:51

I was already really open when

15:53

I started, but I kind of

15:55

wanted to experiment with like what

15:57

happens if you if you tried

15:59

to increase openness even more. So

16:01

for me, what I really did

16:03

is I did a... like what's

16:05

called a peak experience, which is

16:07

sort of an inspiring experience that

16:09

people might have. It can also

16:11

be not in nature, like so

16:13

a lot of people describe giving

16:15

birth to their child. as a

16:17

peak experience and so for me

16:19

that was surfing which I had

16:22

never done before so I'm just

16:24

like not very sporty or aquatic

16:26

so it was like a totally

16:28

new thing I was a little

16:30

scared I'm very afraid of sharks

16:32

it was really interesting because it

16:34

completely absorbs your entire brain trying

16:36

to do this new thing that

16:38

is very physically challenging but also

16:40

you have to constantly be watching

16:42

the waves and pushing up and

16:44

timing everything just right and making

16:46

sure you're in the right position

16:48

on the board. So for me

16:50

that was a really good way

16:52

of getting out of my head

16:54

and trying this new thing in

16:57

an all-encompassing way. Now you mentioned

16:59

conscientiousness following the ocean acronym, OCEAN,

17:01

that leads us perfectly from openness

17:03

to our second point which is

17:05

conscientiousness. First can you describe what

17:07

does being low in conscientiousness look

17:09

like? Procrastinating, looking at TikTok all

17:11

day instead of doing the work

17:13

email that you need to send.

17:15

Oh, I am rock bottom in

17:17

conscientiousness. We all are sometimes, right?

17:19

Can you be so low, you're

17:21

negative? I'm pretty sure you're not

17:23

negative conscientious, because you wouldn't have

17:25

this podcast. But these are, you

17:27

know, like the typical teenager sleeping

17:29

through class, being late, doggate my

17:32

homework type. Yeah, that's low conscientiousness.

17:34

Raffa, I'm claiming like a 0.001

17:36

on conscientiousness on a scale of

17:38

0 to 100. Okay. All right,

17:40

so how do I increase conscientious?

17:42

Because it's clear how being high

17:44

in conscientiousness would lead to greater

17:46

success. That seems pretty evident just

17:48

from your description of what being

17:50

low conscientiousness looks like. Yeah, so

17:52

this is a tricky one because

17:54

people who are low in conscientiousness

17:56

kind of don't know how to

17:58

get there. So that's a common

18:00

problem. One strategy that I thought

18:02

was really interesting is called episodic

18:04

future thinking. And this is when

18:07

you envision very very clearly the

18:09

end result. that you want. Let's

18:11

say you are procrastinating on a

18:13

PowerPoint presentation that you're going to

18:15

present to like a team at

18:17

work. Episotic future thinking is basically

18:19

like, okay, take a minute and

18:21

stop and think about that day.

18:23

You're giving the PowerPoint. It's beautifully

18:25

designed. You're so eloquent. Your boss

18:27

and everyone else applauds and is

18:29

like, wow, you're such a star.

18:31

They all order your favorite sandwiches

18:33

from the deli afterward. You all

18:35

have this amazing lunch with your

18:37

coworkers. It's just a great. awesome

18:40

day right and so sometimes envisioning

18:42

something like that can actually give

18:44

you the motivation to do those

18:46

boring tasks that add up to

18:48

that great vision because if you

18:50

think about it like most amazing

18:52

things are really fun things they

18:54

have a lot of boring Task

18:56

lead up like even an amazing

18:58

vacation that is like nonstop fun

19:00

and excitement You're booking the plane

19:02

tickets and you're like booking the

19:04

activities and you're Calling your credit

19:06

card to be like I'm going

19:08

to Japan or whatever. None of

19:10

that stuff is fun, right? But

19:12

we're motivated to do it because

19:15

we're imagining ourselves in Tokyo having

19:17

a great time right but you

19:19

can apply that with stuff that's

19:21

not just a vacation with other

19:23

things in life that you want.

19:25

Yeah, I for a while on

19:27

Instagram would share whenever I would

19:29

travel rather than share the travel

19:31

photos themselves, I would share photos

19:33

of I'm packing my suitcase. I'm

19:35

getting a lift at 5.30 a.m.

19:37

you know? Yes, yeah. Oh, now

19:39

I'm at the gate, right? Yeah,

19:41

I'm waiting for like an hour

19:43

and a half. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

19:45

exactly. And the whole documentation would

19:47

just end there, right? Like I

19:50

would just show the transit element

19:52

because so much of the time,

19:54

what we see, especially on social

19:56

media, on Instagram, we see that

19:58

end result. We see that beautiful

20:00

vacation and we don't see the

20:02

530 AM wake up to get

20:04

to the airport. Yeah, exactly. And

20:06

so what episodic future thinking really

20:08

does is it helps push you

20:10

through the 530 wake up for

20:12

a work presentation or for, you

20:14

know, and maybe you're imagining getting

20:16

a raise or getting a promotion

20:18

or getting a new job. That

20:20

kind of stuff can be, it

20:22

can be really motivating. What I

20:25

hear in that answer are elements

20:27

of visualization. Would that be a

20:29

good line to draw? Yeah, it

20:31

is sort of like visualization and

20:33

I don't mean to imply that

20:35

it's the secret, like if you

20:37

believe it will happen, like you

20:39

have to be actually doing the

20:41

stuff that leads to that thing,

20:43

but it kind of just makes

20:45

those goals a little bit more

20:47

concrete. and present. And some people

20:49

actually find that it's more motivating

20:51

to think about a negative outcome,

20:53

that they're trying to avoid their

20:55

boss yelling at them or everyone

20:57

being super disappointed or something like

21:00

that. I mean, for some people

21:02

that is more effective to get

21:04

them going than a positive outcome.

21:06

So it kind of just depends

21:08

on whatever is more motivating for

21:10

you. Other than episodic future thinking,

21:12

are there any other tactics that

21:14

can help move a person higher

21:16

in the realm of conscientiousness? sound

21:18

kind of funny, but one thing

21:20

that came across is that the

21:22

people who became more conscientious did

21:24

it by simplifying and streamlining a

21:26

lot. Some of it was literal

21:28

physical decluttering, like cleaning, throwing a

21:30

bunch of stuff away and having

21:32

fewer belongings can actually make it

21:35

a lot easier to find things.

21:37

You spend less time looking for

21:39

stuff, your space feels clearer, so

21:41

you feel less burdened by your

21:43

stuff. They also really streamlined their

21:45

commitments and the things that they

21:47

had to do. So if there

21:49

was extra activities or meetings or

21:51

just obligations that weren't providing value

21:53

for them, they would find a

21:55

way to offload those or to

21:57

stop coming to those basically so

21:59

that they could focus on what

22:01

really matters. And even the guy

22:03

who I interviewed who had never

22:05

written a paper before really what

22:07

switched for him and made him

22:10

a... lot more conscientious was focusing

22:12

on one subject area that was

22:14

interesting to him as opposed to

22:16

taking like gen ed classes surveys

22:18

of like lots of different things

22:20

that maybe weren't as interesting to

22:22

him. So finding ways to simplify

22:24

as much as possible because you

22:26

will inevitably do better if you

22:28

have less to do. But although

22:30

that does fly in the face

22:32

of there's a competing theory of

22:34

if you want something done give

22:36

it to a busy person. Right.

22:38

And I've heard that too and

22:40

I do think that some people

22:42

who are super conscientious already and

22:45

have a lot going on do

22:47

you find a way to like

22:49

squeeze more stuff in but I

22:51

think if you're still working on

22:53

conscientiousness if you are late a

22:55

lot it's probably not a good

22:57

idea to like squeeze even more

22:59

stuff into that half hour before

23:01

you have to leave because you

23:03

know by the time you're finished

23:05

with that email by the time

23:07

you call the Uber by the

23:09

time you find your shoes by

23:11

the time it kind of all

23:13

adds up and so that's where

23:15

that kind of decluttering principle is

23:17

coming from. We'll come back to

23:20

the letters E-A-N in a moment

23:22

after this word from our sponsors,

23:24

but before we take this break,

23:26

I want to share with you.

23:28

So on this subject of time

23:30

blindness and low conscientiousness, you can

23:32

see I'm reading from my phone.

23:34

This is an actual conversation that

23:36

I had with a friend. Friend

23:38

said, one ahead out at about

23:40

245, you know. And I said,

23:42

I need to take a shower.

23:44

And my friend said, okay, so

23:46

245, you know. That's a non-answer.

23:48

And I said, I don't know,

23:50

I'll let you know, it's a

23:52

bit of a time warp. And

23:55

then I just started sending literal,

23:57

like, play-by-play updates. So my next

23:59

text was officially out of the

24:01

shower. My next text was dressed,

24:03

wearing deodorant, eyeliner on. Next text

24:05

was purses packed, followed by putting

24:07

on jacket, followed by just hit

24:09

the elevator button. And then... My

24:11

final text was in the lobby,

24:13

right? Was it before 245? It

24:15

was 310. It was 310 p.m.

24:17

Okay, so close. Not quite. But

24:19

I had no idea how to

24:21

estimate that time. Yeah. You know,

24:23

like I just had no idea.

24:25

And rather than make a promise

24:27

that I wouldn't be able to

24:30

deliver on, I was like, I'm

24:32

just gonna deliver a play-by-play right

24:34

here. So that way I'm setting

24:36

expectations accordingly. And... because I really

24:38

just don't know how long things

24:40

take. So the one tip I

24:42

heard for this is next time

24:44

you're doing something that you frequently

24:46

do, like get ready to go

24:48

out, time how long it takes.

24:50

Yeah. And that way you will

24:52

definitely know. By virtue of sending

24:54

all of those texts, I now

24:56

have the time stamp for every

24:58

text. Yeah. So I was actually

25:00

looking through that to, like, I

25:02

was like, oh, that's how long

25:05

it takes to wear deodorant. Right.

25:07

Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

25:09

Yeah. I mean. I mean. I

25:11

mean. So that is. So that

25:13

is actually. how long things take

25:15

everyone has trouble with that even

25:17

conscientious people and the thing you're

25:19

supposed to do is time yourself

25:21

and you'll be surprised it kind

25:23

of takes longer than you think

25:25

to do a lot of stuff.

25:27

Yeah it really does. There's so

25:29

many steps to it and if

25:31

you think about it it's a

25:33

little cognitively demanding right like to

25:35

have to manage that many steps.

25:37

But when we think about how

25:40

long it'll take we group those

25:42

steps into chunks. This is actually

25:44

what happens in the brain. So

25:46

you have chunks, so you're like,

25:48

oh, showering, and you'll have that

25:50

as one chunk, and you'll put

25:52

that at like 10 minutes, right?

25:54

Right. But in reality, you're showering,

25:56

drying, drying, drying, or drying your

25:58

hair, putting on eyeliner, putting on

26:00

deodorant. Like, there's a lot of

26:02

like micro steps in that, right.

26:04

But we don't necessarily, exactly, exactly,

26:06

exactly. underestimate the amount of time

26:08

that something will take, which leads

26:10

to persistently being late. And also,

26:12

now that I know that I'm

26:15

constantly late, I'm reluctant to give

26:17

an estimated time because if a...

26:19

friend says, hey do you want

26:21

to meet at 245? My response

26:23

is I don't know because I

26:25

have no way of estimating how

26:27

long this task which is showering

26:29

is going to take. Well now

26:31

you do. As long as it's

26:33

always the last thing you do

26:35

before you meet someone. Yeah. He

26:37

teaches a class on Masterclass on

26:39

writing for young audiences. So I

26:41

was just looking at that this

26:43

afternoon. Because how cool would that

26:45

be? You know, with Masterclass, you

26:48

can learn from the best to

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27:18

looking at the R.L. Stein one,

27:20

but a class that I completed

27:23

was through another children's author Judy

27:25

Bloom. She's very conscious about not

27:27

being an adult writing to children,

27:29

but instead when she writes, she

27:31

really tries to embody the perspective

27:33

of her protagonist, the perspective of

27:35

a child. So that's something that

27:37

I think about when I write.

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30:11

talked about C, let's move to that

30:13

third letter E, which is Extroversion. Extroversion

30:16

is exactly what you think it is.

30:18

The person who is the life of

30:20

the party loves people, loves talking to

30:23

people, couldn't wait to get back to

30:25

working in an office after the

30:27

pandemic, just out there doing stuff all

30:29

the time. That's Extroversion. In terms of

30:32

financial success, career success, why does

30:34

extraversion matter? So extraversion is not the

30:36

most important variable for financial success per

30:38

se, but what extraversion does is

30:40

it makes you happier. And a big

30:43

part of why it makes you happier

30:45

is because it expands your social

30:47

network and the number of people that

30:49

you socialize with. Socializing makes us happy.

30:52

Connecting with other people makes us happy.

30:54

Even very small connections that may seem...

30:56

quite meaningless, talking with your barista, talking

30:59

with your mailman, things like that, can

31:01

really make you a lot happier. So

31:03

extraversion tends to kind of create this

31:06

like, positivity and, I don't know, optimism

31:08

maybe, and in part because of that,

31:10

in part because it grows your social

31:13

network, it tends to generate more

31:15

job opportunities or opportunities in general. Yeah,

31:17

I've heard many people say that with

31:19

a few exceptions, most jobs are

31:21

sort of... made for extroverts or designed

31:24

for extroverts. There are a few types

31:26

of jobs that require long periods

31:28

of deep-focused silo work, but even those

31:30

require... to be able to navigate office

31:33

politics or workplace politics in the

31:35

times that you're not doing that deep

31:37

work. So in pretty much any domain

31:39

at that level of extra version and

31:42

EQ seem to go a long way.

31:44

Yeah, a lot of introverts don't want

31:46

to become extraverts and I totally understand

31:49

that. I'm not suggesting that they completely

31:51

flip and become a total partier all

31:53

the time. And I do have one

31:56

of those jobs that requires a lot

31:58

of deep work by myself. Most of

32:00

the time. I actually have to

32:02

interview people, but when I'm not interviewing

32:05

people, I'm just sort of writing for

32:07

hours at a time without interruption

32:09

from anyone. But all jobs, even my

32:11

job, like what I'm doing right now

32:14

is extroverted. All jobs occasionally require

32:16

extraversion. You wouldn't have gotten your job

32:18

if you weren't able to occasionally be

32:20

extroverted at your job interview. It's

32:22

just something that's part of life, having

32:25

to connect with people, having to have

32:27

sort of a gregarious... self-presentation. It's just

32:29

something we all have to do from

32:32

time to time. And so for the

32:34

introverts who are listening to this, how

32:36

can an introvert practice being more extroverted?

32:39

Even if they don't necessarily want to

32:41

be extroverted in all domains of life

32:43

at all times, how can they practice

32:46

having this the skill set of knowing

32:48

how to cosplay as an extrovert

32:50

when it matters? Yeah, cosplay is a

32:52

really good way to put it. So

32:55

what I would do is sign

32:57

up for an activity that involves other

32:59

people. and that occurs regularly and that

33:01

is hard to get out of

33:03

and that you enjoy. And that is

33:06

hard to get out of. Okay, the

33:08

reason is because if you're like,

33:10

I'm just going to get drinks with

33:12

people more and you're like sitting there

33:15

on a text thread going, let's get

33:17

drinks, how about Tuesday, how about Thursday,

33:19

how about next Wednesday, I can't, I

33:22

have to do this, how about next

33:24

Friday, oh, that doesn't work for me,

33:26

like it's just never going to happen.

33:29

and that is hard to not go

33:31

to. And the reason I say that

33:33

is because if you're an introvert, you're

33:36

not gonna. to want to go.

33:38

Like it's going to get to 10

33:40

minutes before you have to leave and

33:42

you're going to be like, oh

33:44

I don't know, the couch looks so

33:47

inviting right now and you're not going

33:49

to want to leave the apartment.

33:51

So I would definitely pick something that's

33:53

like other people are counting on you

33:56

to be there. And is it

33:58

then that just by virtue of going

34:00

out more you will become more extroverted?

34:02

Is this like exposure theory? Yes, basically.

34:05

getting in like reps essentially as an

34:07

extrovert by like connecting more with other

34:09

people first of all you have more

34:12

opportunities to practice so you feel less

34:14

awkward and uncomfortable whenever you're out socializing

34:16

this really happened with me with improv

34:19

I was scared to death of improv

34:21

the first I don't know four five

34:23

months that I did it was

34:25

really only after that long that I

34:28

started to feel comfortable doing it but

34:30

it was honestly just because like

34:32

I kind of knew the drill like

34:34

I would get there, like I know

34:37

what games we're going to play,

34:39

then I know we're going to do

34:41

scenes, probably like one of the scenes

34:43

will be like roughly this kind

34:45

of storyline, we might do this kind

34:48

of scene which we did last time,

34:50

like I kind of became more comfortable

34:52

with it. And when you have that

34:55

kind of comfort and familiarity with something,

34:57

it sort of does become your personality.

34:59

It doesn't feel so unusual or so

35:02

strange. You feel like it's something that

35:04

you can do. Yeah, so it's sort

35:06

of, it is a little bit like

35:09

exposure, yes. In this context, what is

35:11

the distinction between being outgoing versus

35:13

being extroverted? They're very similar. A lot

35:15

of people who are extroverted are also

35:18

very outgoing, but because I know

35:20

there's so much discomfort around like the

35:22

idea of becoming an extrovert for people

35:24

who are very, very introverted, I

35:26

talked with Sonia Lubomiersky, who's a psychologist,

35:29

who has studied social connections and happiness.

35:31

If you are someone who wants

35:33

to be more extroverted, but you're like

35:35

more of a listener than a talker,

35:38

what you can do is go somewhere

35:40

and listen more than you talk. And

35:42

as long as you're around other people,

35:45

as long as you're doing an activity,

35:47

that still like counts as extroverted. Those

35:49

are still social connections. You're still benefiting.

35:52

You're still not alone in your apartment,

35:54

but you're also not having to like

35:56

come up with like zingers and like

35:59

jokes or whatever it is you're

36:01

worried about. Right. Often I have found

36:03

in those environments that if I'm quiet

36:05

for a while, then when I

36:07

do speak, people tend to listen more.

36:10

Totally. Yeah. I ran a meetup group

36:12

for a while based around foreign

36:14

film. And it was interesting because... First

36:16

of all, everyone there was very introverted.

36:19

So it was like a lot

36:21

of silence sometimes, but the people who

36:23

would say the least often had the

36:25

most knowledge about the film. It's

36:27

just that like they were kind of

36:30

like awaiting to unleash it. So that's

36:32

also a form of extra version. Right.

36:34

Are there cases when it comes to

36:37

success or the pursuit of goals when

36:39

it could be beneficial to be more

36:41

on the introverted side? Yeah, definitely. So

36:44

there definitely are jobs where you do

36:46

need to really love being by yourself

36:49

and being quiet and doing deep work.

36:51

My job is an example, you know,

36:53

a lot of people who might

36:55

work in finance or accounting, even like

36:58

programming, things like that, a lot of

37:00

those folks are very introverted and

37:02

it benefits them. Even extreme extroverts, you

37:04

know, the same could be said that

37:07

they often have to like practice

37:09

being introverted and... they have to live

37:11

more of an inner life sometimes in

37:13

order to succeed at their jobs.

37:15

We've talked, OCE, let's talk about the

37:18

next one, A, agreeableness. It seems to

37:20

me that this would be healthy to

37:22

a degree, but up to a certain

37:25

threshold, agreeableness is pro-social, but beyond that,

37:27

agreeableness is actually... It can be like

37:29

people-pleasing, almost, yeah, you don't want to

37:32

be too agreeable, you actually don't want

37:34

to be extreme on any of these,

37:36

emotional stability. which is like low anxiety,

37:39

it seems great, but if you've ever

37:41

met someone who has no anxiety,

37:43

they're like late for their flight. Like,

37:45

I don't know, I didn't book a

37:48

hotel, like, let's just wing it.

37:50

Like, it's, they're not anxious enough. So

37:52

you want a little bit of disagreeableness,

37:54

or at least you want disagreeableness

37:56

on occasion. I have a child, so

37:59

I'm making doctor's appointments for him, and

38:01

the waits for these appointments are

38:03

always long. Sometimes I've had to be

38:05

like, hey, no, I need to get

38:08

in, like, get me an ASAP. I

38:10

would argue necessary in some cases. Right.

38:12

It was self-advocacy. Yeah. Self-advocacy can sometimes

38:15

be non-agreeable. Yeah, yeah, but it's, we

38:17

all have to do that at times.

38:19

Right. And that's normal. Right. So how

38:22

do you know if you are trying

38:24

to be high on agreeableness, how do

38:26

you know when it is a healthy

38:29

dose versus when it's excessive? Yeah.

38:31

Well, so I actually took a scientific

38:33

personality test throughout this that I was

38:35

working on this book. it's at

38:37

personality assessor.com and it told me where

38:40

I fall on agreeableness and I was

38:42

always like low average so I

38:44

was never super high I was definitely

38:46

not like too high I kind of

38:49

like teetered between low and average

38:51

basically so I wanted to kind of

38:53

be above average but not like all

38:55

the way to the end I would

38:58

say that like if you feel like

39:00

you have really good friendships really good

39:02

relationships you feel a lot of social

39:05

support from people around you, but at

39:07

the same time you're able to draw

39:09

boundaries and you're able to not just

39:12

have people walk all over you, that

39:14

is good agreeableness. So like what agreeableness

39:16

is not is just like doing

39:18

whatever your friends tell you to do

39:21

because you're trying to be agreeable. I

39:23

actually had a great conversation with

39:25

someone, a friendship expert, who really talked

39:27

about how boundaries... They might seem disagreeable,

39:30

but they really help us maintain

39:32

our relationships because they kind of they

39:34

tell us literally what the bounds of

39:36

those. relationships are. So I brought

39:38

to her the example that a friend

39:41

was telling me I had to text

39:43

her more often. And you would think

39:45

that the agreeable way to respond to

39:48

that would be like, oh sure, of

39:50

course, I will text you however often

39:52

you want, no problem. I'm not a

39:55

big fan of just texting for fun.

39:57

I just don't really all day text.

39:59

I know a lot of people do

40:02

and I'm like the only person on

40:04

earth who doesn't do that. I

40:06

just don't. I literally text my friends

40:08

and say, I just put on deodorant.

40:11

Yeah, I mean, honestly, that's probably

40:13

healthy, but I just never got in

40:15

this wing and I don't know. I'm

40:17

never going to get there. And

40:19

so I was like, what should I

40:22

do about this texting situation? And she's

40:24

like, you could tell your friend,

40:26

hey, I'm not a big text her,

40:28

but I want to keep in touch

40:31

with you in other ways, like, like

40:33

could we do a weekly email exchange

40:35

or a weekly phone calls, zoom, zoom,

40:38

face time, Keep in touch. And I

40:40

think that's a healthy form of agreeableness

40:42

because you're not letting someone just dictate

40:45

what you're going to do, but you're

40:47

also letting them know that they're important

40:49

to you and that you want to

40:52

keep the relationship going in a

40:54

way that works for both of you.

40:56

What can a person do to increase

40:58

their level of agreeableness? How does

41:00

a person be intentional about this domain?

41:03

So one super interesting thing that I

41:05

did was I went to a

41:07

conversation workshop. in London, which was all

41:09

about how to have more meaningful conversations.

41:12

And it was really interesting because

41:14

I thought I was an expert at

41:16

having conversations because I'm a journalist, but

41:18

really I am not. I have conversations

41:21

the way everyone else does, which is

41:23

I ask a bunch of questions. What

41:25

you could do instead of asking people

41:28

for facts like that is to ask

41:30

them what a certain situation meant for

41:32

them. what the meaning behind something was

41:35

or why something was important to them.

41:37

So if someone's like, oh, I can't

41:39

hang out tonight because my kids

41:41

have their school concert or something, so

41:44

I'd be like, okay, see you some

41:46

other time. You could be like,

41:48

oh, cool. What are they performing? And

41:50

how long did they work on their

41:53

songs? What was it like the

41:55

first time you saw them practice their

41:57

songs for you? Kind of asking more

41:59

questions about someone. emotional state can

42:01

actually create feelings of agreeableness because you

42:04

see them as more of a whole person.

42:06

You're not just going through the motions

42:08

of interacting with them. Right, right. Well

42:10

and what's interesting to me about that

42:13

answer is that you're what you're talking

42:15

about is the perception of

42:17

agreeableness because in that particular

42:19

example you're not necessarily agreeing

42:21

to go along with anything.

42:23

Exactly. You're not necessarily acquiescing

42:25

to a given demand. you're

42:27

still increasing perceptions of agreeableness by

42:30

saying, hey, tell me about the

42:32

experience of like watching your kid

42:34

perform on stage. What is that

42:36

like? Is it exciting? Is it

42:38

nerve-wracking? What does that feel like?

42:40

Yeah, exactly. What was that like? is

42:43

one of the questions that she suggested

42:45

that we ask in order to sort

42:47

of deepen. And it really shows how

42:49

agreeableness, like, I think people get the

42:52

wrong impression because it's like, agree, that

42:54

means you're agreeing with whatever's going on.

42:56

But really, I mean, you could ask

42:58

these questions of someone who's like, the

43:01

polar opposite of you politically, politically, religiously,

43:03

whatever domain you're kind of worried about,

43:05

and you could still have a perfectly

43:07

civil and actually super interesting conversation, as

43:10

long as you are focusing on like

43:12

why. what's behind some of their thoughts

43:14

and emotions. Right, yeah. What are the

43:16

concerns that led you to? Yeah,

43:18

exactly, yeah. And you're not agreeing

43:20

with anything they're saying. You're just

43:22

learning about them. It seems to

43:24

me then that that agreeableness

43:27

is almost like curiosity about a

43:29

person. Yeah, it's exactly. It's... It's

43:32

warmth and empathy and a big

43:34

way that we show warmth and

43:36

empathy is through curiosity and genuine,

43:39

the kind of genuine curiosity that

43:41

some of these conversation prompts

43:43

foster as opposed to just kind of

43:45

like small talk questions which have their

43:48

place but you know are limited. Right,

43:50

right. Well I think the reason that

43:52

small talk questions can be so exhausting

43:55

is because often it is a recitation

43:57

of facts. It's so what do you

43:59

do? How long have you been doing

44:01

it? How long have you lived here?

44:03

When did you move here? What brought

44:05

you here? It's like, it just seems

44:08

like a regurgitation of the same set

44:10

of facts over and over and over

44:12

to a point where I'm like, I

44:14

could just put all of this on

44:16

like a world's longest name tag. I

44:18

know. You know, if you want my

44:20

bio data, here it is. Yeah, and

44:22

that's exactly why. this woman, Georgie Nightingale,

44:24

started this whole program is because she

44:27

was like, I'm so sick of going

44:29

into networking mixers and having it be

44:31

like, when did you move here? Where

44:33

do you live? We're all just exchanging

44:35

the same five facts and then we're

44:37

going home. Why are we doing this?

44:39

We'll probably never see the people in

44:41

that workshop again. But I feel like

44:43

I got to know them so well

44:45

and the stuff that was important to

44:48

them and the stuff that they cared

44:50

about. I felt so close to them

44:52

for those two days. done in a

44:54

very like prescribed way. I don't know.

44:56

I think it works. I like the

44:58

icebreaker. What was your favorite part of

45:00

today? Yeah. What was the best part

45:02

of today? That's a good one. Yeah.

45:04

You know, I might steal that icebreaker.

45:07

I don't have one. I've thought a

45:09

lot about that one and I think

45:11

the reason that it works is if

45:13

you say, hey, what was your favorite

45:15

thing that you've ever done in life?

45:17

That is such a wide scope of

45:19

time. window of time and it's easy

45:21

to recall. Like if you think about

45:23

just ease of recall, salience, like today

45:26

is at the forefront of your mind

45:28

already. So it's, you're not asking them

45:30

to scrape the like deep dark recesses

45:32

of their memory bank. It's just, hey,

45:34

what was the best part of today?

45:36

And it's, of course, it's positive. It

45:38

wasn't like, what was the worst part

45:40

of today? Yeah, you know, you know,

45:42

my mom's group that I'm in does

45:45

something similar, something similar in the very

45:47

post- So that did have a negative

45:49

element, but I think that part was

45:51

important because like so much kind of

45:53

bad stuff happens postpartum if I'm being

45:55

honest. It's like stressful babies cry all

45:57

the time. It's like nice to give

45:59

the person that release of this very

46:01

frustrating thing happened, but then also to

46:04

have that like positive recovery from it

46:06

where you're like, but the baby smiled

46:08

at me for the first time or

46:10

you know, whatever happened. So yeah. You're

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47:52

let's talk about that last letter,

47:54

the letter N. This is one

47:57

where you actually want to be

47:59

low on it. This is the

48:01

only one of the acronym where

48:03

you want to. below. Yes, I

48:05

should maybe just start saying that

48:07

the acronym is not ocean and

48:10

it's ocean. No, no, I've heard

48:12

ocean from multiple sources. It's a

48:14

common acronym for the big five.

48:16

It's so confusing. But yes, neuroticism,

48:18

you want to be low on

48:21

it. Can you describe what that

48:23

looks like? What does being low

48:25

neuroticism look like and conversely, what

48:27

does being high neuroticism look like?

48:29

It's like a woman with low

48:31

anxiety. plane just crashed and we're

48:34

about to take a flight. Oh

48:36

well, that means like they must

48:38

be doing a lot of extra

48:40

safety checks. It's the first day

48:42

of my new job tomorrow. I'm

48:45

sure everyone will love me and

48:47

everything will go great. I honestly

48:49

am so high on anxiety that

48:51

I have trouble even like jokingly

48:53

describing what that would be like.

48:55

But yeah, it's someone who just

48:58

does not really worry much and

49:00

is not really down in the

49:02

dumps much. I can see even

49:04

from your facial expression right now

49:06

that you find that hard to

49:08

relate to. So describe what being

49:11

high in eroticism is like, what

49:13

is that experience? So especially before

49:15

I started this project, there was

49:17

a lot more just like dread

49:19

about the future and worry about

49:22

the future and getting like all

49:24

caught up in the worries to

49:26

the point where like... just like

49:28

googling stuff a lot like the

49:30

same types of things. Just being

49:32

super nervous about things to the

49:35

point where you can't think about

49:37

anything else because you worry almost

49:39

if you take your eye off

49:41

the ball of the worry it'll

49:43

come true. Never really savoring anything

49:46

good that happens because you're kind

49:48

of on to worrying about the

49:50

next thing or you're just very

49:52

able to find the negative in

49:54

the good thing that happened. Not

49:56

having a ton of hope or

49:59

optimism about the future or about

50:01

positive outcomes that might happen. Yeah,

50:03

that would be high neuroticism. That

50:05

sounds very stressful. It is, yeah.

50:07

Yeah. When you were high neuroticism,

50:10

were you aware that that's what

50:12

you were? Or did you think

50:14

that that was just a normal

50:16

state? Was it such a baseline

50:18

that you thought? everyone was like

50:20

that. So I think gradually over

50:23

time I came to realize that

50:25

it is abnormal, that it's like

50:27

not normal to feel quite as

50:29

anxious as I felt at the

50:31

time. Yeah, I think it was

50:34

just a gradual, because for a

50:36

long time I kind of thought

50:38

my life is uniquely stressful, but

50:40

then if that is ridiculous, it's

50:42

not. People in very poor countries

50:44

with very meager livings and really

50:47

stressful circumstances, their lives are stressful,

50:49

like my life. is actually not

50:51

that stressful. So yeah, it was

50:53

kind of a gradual realization. And

50:55

how did you work your way

50:57

out of that? Tell us about

51:00

that. So the thing to do

51:02

for neuroticism is basically meditation. So

51:04

okay, you could do therapy and

51:06

medication, which I also do, but

51:08

meditation and various forms of mindfulness,

51:11

it can be something more like

51:13

yoga if you like absolutely cannot

51:15

stand meditation or traditional sitting down

51:17

meditation. there's like mindful walking as

51:19

well. There's also meditations where you

51:21

repeat phrases to yourself as opposed

51:24

to just following your breath. But

51:26

basically some form of mindfulness practice

51:28

seems to be what helps with

51:30

neuroticism. Are there any other tactics

51:32

or is that the primary one?

51:35

That is the main one that

51:37

I did and that I found

51:39

useful and in fact one of

51:41

the other strategies that I came

51:43

across was basically mindfulness. by a

51:45

different name. It was like noting,

51:48

which is basically just noting the

51:50

things you're seeing or feeling or

51:52

hearing. Like you're literally taking notes?

51:54

No, no, just like mentally, mental

51:56

noting. Yeah. I found that to

51:59

be way more challenging than just

52:01

meditation. I took an intensive meditation

52:03

class called MBSR. But and M-

52:05

Mindfulness-based stress reduction. It's like the

52:07

most studied. meditation class that's out

52:09

there. So I think 10 weeks

52:12

or something. like that or maybe

52:14

yeah I think something like 10

52:16

weeks and you meditate for 45

52:18

minutes a day and you learn

52:20

about Buddhism and I would say

52:22

the learning about Buddhism element was

52:25

more helpful to me than even

52:27

the meditation per se but yeah.

52:29

Neuroticism is the one attribute in

52:31

which being high neuroticism it does

52:33

or it does not correlate with

52:36

success. It does not. It does

52:38

not correlate with success. It does

52:40

not. It does not. feels counterintuitive.

52:42

I know, because so many successful

52:44

people are neurotic, but they're kind

52:46

of successful despite their neuroticism. And

52:49

then if you think about things

52:51

that involve a great deal of

52:53

financial risk, which often leads to

52:55

financial success, it requires a low

52:57

level of neuroticism to even participate

53:00

in that kind of thing. So

53:02

like people who do invest, it

53:04

does involve risk and being too

53:06

anxious or too unwilling to unwilling

53:08

to. take risks means that you're

53:10

not really doing that. So neuroticism

53:13

can lead to being too conservative

53:15

with your money? Too cautious or

53:17

just like unable to make decisions,

53:19

unable to break free of like

53:21

analysis paralysis? Right, too indecisive, to

53:24

analysis paralysis, to overly cautious, overly

53:26

conservative. Okay, that makes sense actually.

53:28

It reminds me there's a quote

53:30

from the finance writer Morgan Halseau

53:32

who says pessimists get to be

53:34

right. Optimists get to be rich.

53:37

Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and when

53:39

they look at the personality types

53:41

of CEOs, it's usually like extroverted,

53:43

low agreeableness, and then like low

53:45

neuroticism, because starting a company involves

53:47

a lot of risk and the

53:50

people willing to take risks are

53:52

able to at least manage their

53:54

anxiety and not let it overwhelm

53:56

them. You said low agreeableness? Yeah,

53:58

people who start company, yeah. Why

54:01

is that? Because being sort of

54:03

dominant and like... top of the

54:05

food chain and getting what you

54:07

want, it tends to be just

54:09

a person. personality type that is

54:11

low in like the touchy-feely element

54:14

of agreeableness. Interesting. Okay, high extraversion,

54:16

low agreeableness, and low neuroticism. So

54:18

the low neuroticism leads to the

54:20

confidence to be able to take

54:22

risks. Yeah. The low agreeableness means

54:25

that you have strong leadership. Yeah,

54:27

and I'm not saying people are

54:29

going to love you. the classic

54:31

examples like Steve Jobs who was

54:33

like he was a difficult person

54:35

but like a visionary you know

54:38

so that's what they're talking about

54:40

there right and then the high

54:42

extra version so you can be

54:44

around a large team pretty much

54:46

24-7 yes during all your waking

54:49

hours and and that doesn't drain

54:51

you exactly so yeah that makes

54:53

that the Steve Jobs prototype is

54:55

actually a perfect example of that

54:57

because you can really see that

54:59

in what's been written about him

55:02

mm-hmm and you were asking about

55:04

like other techniques This doesn't really

55:06

help with like all-consuming anxiety, but

55:08

if you have a specific worry

55:10

that is like standing in the

55:13

way of doing something, making some

55:15

sort of leap, one strategy that

55:17

I learned from Tracy Dennis Tawari

55:19

is, by all means, write down

55:21

everything bad that could happen, make

55:23

your little list of all the

55:26

bad possibilities, but then also take

55:28

a minute and think about all

55:30

the good things that could happen.

55:32

Imagine the positive outcomes that are

55:34

also possible, because really in most

55:36

situations in life, Both are true,

55:39

right? Bad things and good things

55:41

can happen, but when we get

55:43

to be very focused in dwelling

55:45

in neuroticism, we can only see

55:47

that left-hand column of everything, dad.

55:50

Right. So we've now covered all

55:52

five, the entire ocean acronym. Do

55:54

you have any sort of overarching

55:56

takeaways for this audience in terms

55:58

of how to use the concept

56:00

of understanding the big five personality

56:03

traits and understanding that these are

56:05

malleable? and that we can choose

56:07

to move along this spectrum if

56:09

we want to, are there any

56:11

overarching takeaways for the... in terms

56:14

of how to apply this to

56:16

their own lives? I would basically

56:18

never tell yourself that you can't

56:20

do something because you're just not

56:22

that way. So if an opportunity

56:24

comes up that requires public speaking

56:27

and you've never spoken publicly before

56:29

and that just doesn't seem like

56:31

something you would do, I would

56:33

not let that stand in your

56:35

way. I would say the only

56:38

way to make it something that

56:40

you would do is to do

56:42

it. take small steps every day

56:44

to get you closer to that

56:46

goal that you want to achieve

56:48

and you will basically be working

56:51

on that personality trait in question

56:53

whether it's conscientiousness whether it's extra

56:55

version whether it's something else just

56:57

changing a few small things every

56:59

day or every week going to

57:01

one new thing trying to time

57:04

your shower and eyeliner routine, you

57:06

know, whatever it is that you're

57:08

working on, just stacking those building

57:10

blocks up will make it so

57:12

that you actually can change your

57:15

personality in the direction that you

57:17

want. Excellent. Well, thank you so

57:19

much for spending this time with

57:21

us. Where can people find you

57:23

if they'd like to know more?

57:25

Yeah, they can find me, but

57:28

better. Anywhere books are sold, they

57:30

can read my writing at the

57:32

atlantic.com. And I also have a

57:34

sub stack at Olga Hazan.substack.com. Perfect.

57:36

Thank you. We'll link to all

57:39

of those in the show notes

57:41

as well. Yeah, thank you so

57:43

much. Thank you Olga. What are

57:45

three key takeaways that we got

57:47

from this conversation? Key takeaway number

57:49

one. Personality is not fixed. It's

57:52

flexible. We've all heard people say,

57:54

well, that's just how I am.

57:56

But science now tells us that

57:58

this isn't entirely true. Your personality

58:00

traits are not set in stone.

58:03

They can change over time, both

58:05

naturally, as well as through deliberate

58:07

effort. And this is really big

58:09

news for anybody who wants to

58:11

advance their career or step into

58:13

entrepreneurship. Maybe you've always been really

58:16

nervous. You think that you're too

58:18

anxious to take financial risks, or

58:20

you think that you're not outgoing

58:22

enough to be in a sales

58:24

position. that you're too disorganized to

58:26

be in management, understanding that your

58:29

personality traits are flexible, they're malleable,

58:31

that opens up a ton of

58:33

possibilities for growth in exactly the

58:35

areas that are holding you back

58:37

professionally. So this really jives with

58:40

the notion of having a growth

58:42

mindset, which comes from Stanford Professor

58:44

Carol Dweck. And the thing about

58:46

personality change is that initially the

58:48

changes might be subtle, but... You

58:50

know how compounding works? Really small

58:53

incremental changes can compound overtime. Anything,

58:55

to quote a previous guest on

58:57

this podcast, the Hill Bloom, anything

58:59

greater than zero compounds. So no

59:01

matter how small the change is,

59:04

these really small consistent shifts transform

59:06

you in ways that over time

59:08

become major. A lot of people

59:10

do say, I haven't changed, I've

59:12

been exactly the same since I

59:14

was a little kid. I will

59:17

say that that's pretty unusual. Most

59:19

of us do change over time.

59:21

The changes might be kind of

59:23

subtle, so you might not notice

59:25

it in someone else. They might

59:28

not even notice it in themselves.

59:30

So that's the first key takeaway.

59:32

Key takeaway number two. Work on

59:34

increasing your conscientiousness, because if there's

59:36

one personality trait that is most

59:38

directly linked. to both career advancement

59:41

and financial success, it's conscientiousness, it's

59:43

being organized, timely, productive, and following

59:45

through. And that's the opposite of

59:47

a law, is certainly the opposite

59:49

of me, right? Like for those

59:51

of us who struggle with procrastination

59:54

and with follow-through, how do we

59:56

actually become more conscientious? Because as

59:58

we've just established, we can, personality

1:00:00

can change, where we fall along

1:00:02

the consciousness spectrum, that can change.

1:00:05

So how do we do it?

1:00:07

Well Olga shared a fascinating technique

1:00:09

called episodic future thinking, which can

1:00:11

help breakthrough procrastination. She recommended... vividly

1:00:13

visualizing the positive outcome of completing

1:00:15

a task. Not just the end

1:00:18

result, but everything, the praise, the

1:00:20

recognition, the feeling of relief, or

1:00:22

the feeling of achievement, everything that

1:00:24

you can use to motivate yourself

1:00:26

through the boring parts, give yourself

1:00:29

that dopamine rush even when the

1:00:31

parts are boring. This type of

1:00:33

episodic future thinking, this mental rehearsal,

1:00:35

creates a stronger connection between the

1:00:37

tedium of today. And the rewards

1:00:39

of tomorrow, whether those rewards are

1:00:42

a promotion or a bigger bank

1:00:44

account or simply earning the respect

1:00:46

of your colleagues. One strategy that

1:00:48

I thought was really interesting is

1:00:50

called episodic future thinking. And this

1:00:53

is when you envision very very

1:00:55

clearly the end results that you

1:00:57

want. Let's say you are procrastinating

1:00:59

on a PowerPoint presentation that you're

1:01:01

going to present to like a

1:01:03

team at work. Epusodic future thinking

1:01:06

is basically like, okay, take a

1:01:08

minute and stop and think about

1:01:10

that day. You're giving the PowerPoint.

1:01:12

It's beautifully designed. You're so eloquent.

1:01:14

Your boss and everyone else applauds

1:01:17

and is like, wow, you're such

1:01:19

a star. Finally, key takeaway number

1:01:21

three. There are three traits, three

1:01:23

key traits that successful entrepreneurs share.

1:01:25

If you have ever wondered, if

1:01:27

you have what it takes to

1:01:30

start a business, well... There is

1:01:32

actually a specific personality profile that

1:01:34

tends to thrive in leadership roles.

1:01:36

And that doesn't mean, oh, you're

1:01:38

just born with the right traits,

1:01:40

I'm putting born within air quotes,

1:01:43

you can't see me, but you

1:01:45

know, I'm putting born within air

1:01:47

quotes, right? Nobody is born with

1:01:49

the right traits, that's fixed mindset

1:01:51

thinking. Instead, there are personality attributes

1:01:54

that you can change and you

1:01:56

can strengthen if you want to

1:01:58

lead a company. And so the

1:02:00

winning combination seems to be... High

1:02:02

extra version, meaning you have a

1:02:04

lot of energy for interacting with

1:02:07

others. Low agreeableness. which means you

1:02:09

need the ability to make tough

1:02:11

decisions without excessive people pleasing. You

1:02:13

need to quote the title of

1:02:15

an excellent book. You need the

1:02:18

courage to be disliked. I'm going

1:02:20

to say that again. I'm going

1:02:22

to slow down and say that

1:02:24

again. You need the courage to

1:02:26

be disliked. And if you want

1:02:28

to learn more, there's a great

1:02:31

book with that title. High extra

1:02:33

version, which means you're great with

1:02:35

people combined with low agreeableness, which

1:02:37

means... You're not a people-pleaser. You

1:02:39

don't have a fawning trauma response.

1:02:42

And you also need low neuroticism,

1:02:44

which means emotional stability, which will

1:02:46

allow you to take bigger risks,

1:02:48

and which will allow you to

1:02:50

deal with the anxieties, the stresses,

1:02:52

the volatility, the uncertainty. If you

1:02:55

think of somebody like Steve Jobs,

1:02:57

he was not always the nicest

1:02:59

guy in the room, but he

1:03:01

had vision. decisiveness and comfort with

1:03:03

risk. That combination of traits created

1:03:05

one of the world's most valuable

1:03:08

companies. And so the good news,

1:03:10

no matter where you fall along

1:03:12

the spectrum, is that by understanding

1:03:14

these patterns, you know what specific

1:03:16

areas you need to work on

1:03:19

if your goal is entrepreneurship or

1:03:21

even more generally leadership. When they

1:03:23

look at the personality types of

1:03:25

CEOs. It's usually like extroverted, low

1:03:27

agreeableness, and then like low neuroticism

1:03:29

because starting a company involves a

1:03:32

lot of risk and the people

1:03:34

willing to take risks are able

1:03:36

to at least manage their anxiety

1:03:38

and not let it overwhelm them.

1:03:40

I'm not saying people are going

1:03:43

to love you. The classic examples

1:03:45

like Steve Jobs who was like

1:03:47

he was a difficult person but

1:03:49

like a visionary, you know. Those

1:03:51

are three key takeaways from this

1:03:53

conversation with Olga Kazan, the author

1:03:56

of a book called Me But

1:03:58

Better, which is all about the

1:04:00

science of personality change. Thank you

1:04:02

so much for tuning in. If

1:04:04

you enjoy today's episode, please. do

1:04:07

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