0:15

Broadcasting live from the Muruganda

0:18

Raceway on the plane of Muruganda.

0:20

This is Taptap Concede. Welcome everybody

0:22

to Taptap Concede. My name is

0:24

Graham. Joining me is Nelson. Hey

0:26

I'm here. And Kathleen? Hello. And

0:28

today we're talking about stuff. But

0:30

before we get to that. We're

0:32

going to remind you that this

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Card Kingdom. Check out cardkingem.com/L-R-R to

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not alchemy because that's online only.

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Great pitch Graham. Also want to shout out

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becoming a member here on this YouTube

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channel. Dada. Thanks everybody. We've

1:20

done it Yeah, Graham knows

1:22

about which formats are online

1:25

only now because Cameron explained

1:27

it to him in episode one. Yeah,

1:29

exactly. Yeah, we I'm so glad

1:31

that stuff didn't change. There's like

1:33

a couple of days. When this

1:36

when this episode airs, the most

1:38

recent Friday nights to have gone up

1:40

is episode four, which involves the

1:42

pre-titled joke about everyone saying that

1:44

their deck is a seven right

1:46

which I realize which is still

1:49

valid because the brackets are only

1:51

in beta but I you know it's I'm

1:53

before we were producing Friday nights within

1:55

the month that it was coming

1:57

out and it'd be like this

1:59

is the this is the that's

2:01

out right now, we're going to

2:04

do jokes about this, we're going

2:06

to film it, it goes live

2:08

now, and so we were able

2:10

to stay very current. These episodes

2:12

were written over a year ago,

2:14

and so I'm just like... Please

2:16

and so the in in episode

2:18

two when Cameron and Missy are

2:21

going over all the different formats

2:23

and stuff that's all still accurate

2:25

even though there's way more pioneer

2:27

on arena than there was when

2:29

I wrote it it's still not

2:31

all of it they dropped Pioneer

2:33

Masters but Explorer is still the

2:35

button you click yeah so I

2:37

was like oh thank goodness so

2:40

the brackets one didn't didn't or

2:42

the the my deck is a

2:44

seven I swear when I swear

2:46

when I wrote that the Every

2:48

deck is a seven was not

2:50

as prevalent of a meme, but

2:52

I couldn't tell people. But now,

2:54

I don't know, now we're here.

2:57

That's actually the first thing that

2:59

I want to talk about in,

3:01

in, actually, Nelson made the observation.

3:03

It's like, this is not really

3:05

our brand to directly respond to

3:07

YouTube comments, is it? And that

3:09

you're right. But normally we don't

3:11

care about what you said. But

3:13

we're allowed. Yeah, but this won't,

3:16

this wouldn't be the first time.

3:18

First of all, we were asked

3:20

about what product line we would

3:22

like to see them resurrect. And

3:24

I said, the commander collection, because

3:26

they did green and they did

3:28

black and that was it. And

3:30

a bunch of people brought up

3:33

that they didn't finish those, but

3:35

they did prior to that do

3:37

the signature spell books, if you

3:39

recall, for Gideon Chandra and Jace,

3:41

which were the other colors. And

3:43

they were very similar products. Right.

3:45

And it was being presented in

3:47

a way of saying like, well,

3:50

Graham, they did actually complete the

3:52

cycle and I would allege there's

3:54

two cycles they should finish. I

3:56

mean, like, Liliana was in the

3:58

Commander Collection, so it was sort

4:00

of like a Liliana spellbook, kind

4:02

of, but it was less the,

4:04

like, the spellbooks was like, Gideon

4:06

was on all. the cards. Right.

4:09

And like the Shonders one, Shonders

4:11

was on all the cards and

4:13

the commander collections were a different

4:15

thing. So yeah, I guess you're

4:17

right. I guess they were sort

4:19

of the same thing. But I

4:21

think they were different and I

4:23

think they were distinct enough that

4:26

I would I would have liked

4:28

to see frankly both of them

4:30

continue. But they rode away from

4:32

planes walkers so that's not going

4:34

to happen. Yeah. The other thing

4:36

that we talked about that we've

4:38

been getting a lot of comments

4:40

on that episode about is the

4:42

commander brackets. What's up camera seven

4:45

I want to this is the

4:47

one of the rare though if

4:49

you've been watching tap tap concede

4:51

for a while you know you'll

4:53

you'll recognize this is Graham gets

4:55

annoyed and tries to tries to

4:57

make you understand But we were

4:59

talking before we went live and

5:02

Nelson you're less familiar with the

5:04

brackets. Yeah, I I didn't even

5:06

read all of the article when

5:08

they announced them. Right. And I

5:10

know that they had been like

5:12

talked about in preview, there's like

5:14

a new strategy with a new

5:16

commander from a panel back in

5:19

December or whatever. There was like

5:21

stuff to be coming out. And

5:23

then it was kind of all

5:25

over my social media. Like these

5:27

are the four like sets of

5:29

game changers or whatever. And like

5:31

these are the four brackets where

5:33

like five there's five brackets. Right.

5:35

Right. but no that's that's the

5:38

thing so this is so this

5:40

is this is what was what

5:42

was causing some of the comments

5:44

I feel is so our previous

5:46

system for having a discussion of

5:48

expectations at the beginning of a

5:50

commander game for those who have

5:52

it there were some people that

5:55

were like well no one talks

5:57

unless I bring it up and

5:59

that's fair but that's not something

6:01

that any scale can solve. That's

6:03

understandable, but that's not what this

6:05

is about. Was basically just sort

6:07

of zero through 10, right? And

6:09

everyone has a different belief and

6:12

understanding of what their power, what

6:14

their deck's power level is, which

6:16

is what Why the joke of

6:18

like, well, everything's a seven, right?

6:20

Because it's like, well, you know,

6:22

my deck's not like the best

6:24

thing, but it's like, it's better

6:26

than medium. So you don't want

6:28

to say your deck's a five.

6:31

You don't want to be like,

6:33

yeah, this is a real soft

6:35

five, right? Sometimes you build a

6:37

deck where you're like, yeah, this

6:39

is a real soft five, right?

6:41

Sometimes you build a deck where

6:43

you're like, yeah, actually, this is

6:45

like, like, like, like, like, like,

6:48

like, like, like, It's like intentional

6:50

that you're like, I built a

6:52

deck that's like kind of soft,

6:54

it might be a punching bag,

6:56

but also it's commander, it could

6:58

win a game. Yeah, it's flavorful.

7:00

And this is what we're getting

7:02

into with the brackets. Yeah. So

7:04

that system, this like arbitrary zero

7:07

through 10, was sort of intrinsically

7:09

tied to the perceived power level

7:11

of the decks, right? And it

7:13

was like, oh, my deck is

7:15

this powerful. And against your deck,

7:17

which is of a different. power

7:19

level again this is all very

7:21

sort of arbitrary yeah the point

7:24

of the brackets is to give

7:26

very clear delineations of not power

7:28

but expectation intent intent intent right

7:30

it is what can you expect

7:32

to find in your opponent's deck

7:34

which is why and i'm gonna

7:36

refer now to the article level

7:38

two I just want to say

7:41

something. When you're talking about expectations

7:43

of what you get in your

7:45

deck, some cards are more powerful

7:47

than others, and that's why they

7:49

have different expectations associated with them.

7:51

Yes, but this is not about

7:53

individual cards. Sorry, what I'm trying

7:55

to say is level two. If

7:57

the deck has no mass land

8:00

denial, no chaining extra turns, No

8:02

intentional two-card infinite combos, and no

8:04

cards on the Gamechanger list, it

8:06

is a two. That is it.

8:08

That is the expectation. There can

8:10

be very good deck twos and

8:12

very bad deck twos. Yeah, they

8:14

say the average power level of

8:17

a pre-con, which varies wildly. But

8:19

my point is, between two and

8:21

three, three still has no mass

8:23

land denial, no chaining extra turns.

8:25

It can have a two-card infinite

8:27

combo, and up to three cards

8:29

from the game changer list. Those

8:31

are very firm delineations. There is

8:33

no such thing as a 2.5.

8:36

Because what you're trying to say

8:38

is my deck doesn't have any

8:40

of these things, but I think

8:42

it's powerful and good. Yeah. That's

8:44

not what this is about. This

8:46

is not the power of your

8:48

deck. This is, if I sit

8:50

down from you, you might absolutely

8:53

dumpster me. But you didn't do

8:55

it with extra turns or a

8:57

two-card infinite combo. So your deck

8:59

is a two. Maybe it's a

9:01

very good two. In some scenarios,

9:03

a two could beat a four.

9:05

I did that at MagicCon. Yeah,

9:07

sure. But that's fine. That's magic.

9:10

But what this is about is

9:12

setting clear expectations of what is

9:14

in the deck, not how powerful

9:16

it is. Now. The the the

9:18

Wizards article also says You could

9:20

have a deck too and say

9:22

my deck is a two, but

9:24

I'm playing it against fours You

9:26

can do that But your deck

9:29

isn't a three point two five?

9:31

No, because it clearly has very

9:33

firm definitions of what these brackets

9:35

are because it's not about power,

9:37

it's about expectation Yeah, well, and

9:39

the well, I would say bracket

9:41

one is anything that is like

9:43

This is more goof town and

9:46

flavor, flavor built than optimized. Because

9:48

one is a little soft on

9:50

the definition because it's the one's

9:52

the exhibition bracket essentially. Well, it's

9:54

also no extra turns of any

9:56

kind. No extra turns of any

9:58

kind. But like our fast banner

10:00

or tutors even on the list

10:02

for what constitutes the bracket. So

10:05

yes, the tutors. So number one,

10:07

few. tutors. Number two, also few

10:09

tutors. Now, there are some specific

10:11

tutors, like demonit tutors, that are

10:13

game changers, right? So I don't

10:15

actually, let me double check. But

10:17

there's no rule that says no

10:19

tutors, right? Does that make sense?

10:22

Well, I don't know, maybe, sure,

10:24

I know if maybe one of

10:26

the brackets was like, if you

10:28

have a tutor in your deck,

10:30

you're not in this bracket or

10:32

whatever, but not so much. No,

10:34

there is nothing like that. No,

10:36

there is nothing like that. You

10:39

could have a worldly tutor in

10:41

a bracket one or two deck.

10:43

Mystical tutor, demonic tutor, imperial seal,

10:45

vampiric tutor, those are all on

10:47

the game changers list. You can't

10:49

have those in a bracket one

10:51

or two deck. That's it, right?

10:53

You just know it's like, okay,

10:55

well, you're not gonna have this.

10:58

Like, Wheeler was talking about, he

11:00

has like a cycling deck. And

11:02

he's like, I will mostly be

11:04

tutoring for a basic land. Because

11:06

his deck runs like, it's like

11:08

eight. Lands or something silly like

11:10

it's a really it's a goofy

11:12

goofy deck But depending on what

11:15

the tutor is then you know

11:17

like if it's if he's running

11:19

demonic tutor, then it's a bracket

11:21

three and that's it's not saying

11:23

it's a Good deck or whatever

11:25

or that you should be powerful

11:27

bracket three deck. Yeah, it doesn't

11:29

matter right and also like really

11:31

important actually that I should have

11:34

opened with a this in beta

11:36

and they're working on it and

11:38

B you don't have to use

11:40

these these But it's a- But

11:42

you're fundamentally misunderstanding the intent of

11:44

the system. This is- This is-

11:46

This is- This is what I

11:48

was getting annoyed about reading- some

11:51

of the comments. And I'm sure-

11:53

that people will just be more

11:55

annoyed with me now anyway. Oh

11:57

yeah. The thing is, yeah, people

11:59

want to rate their decks by

12:01

power because that is the previous

12:03

system. And the game changers are

12:05

powerful cards and they have powerful

12:08

effects and that's why they have

12:10

been listed as such because they

12:12

can be game warping abilities, right?

12:14

When you have these two card

12:16

combos, when you use these spells,

12:18

right? So that is... to the

12:20

credit of people misunderstanding an indication

12:22

of the relative of the the

12:24

power and build level of the

12:27

deck Right because if you are

12:29

putting these two card combos in

12:31

presumably you know what you're doing

12:33

and you're trying to build something

12:35

a little bit more like a

12:37

little elegant a little package that

12:39

comes together, right? You know there

12:41

is That will be more powerful

12:44

than these are all vampires because

12:46

I like Sorin Markov. He's my

12:48

commander. It's the baby Sorin or

12:50

whatever, right? You know, like that

12:52

is just going to be a

12:54

bit more built than something that's

12:56

put these arbitrary restrictions on. So

12:58

there is a difference in, we

13:01

will say, like a CDAH bracket

13:03

that's going to be more powerful

13:05

than my two. Yeah, I've added

13:07

some stuff too. And so there

13:09

was a, there was a comment.

13:11

And I'm not calling out this

13:13

commenter because they're talking about someone

13:15

else, but they're saying, we've already

13:17

seen videos of people playing bracket

13:20

3CDAH. And like, no, bracket 5

13:22

is CDAH. If it's a CDAH

13:24

deck, it's in bracket 5. It

13:26

doesn't matter how many game changers

13:28

or whatever that you have or

13:30

you don't. There is, within this

13:32

system, there is no such thing

13:34

as a bracket 3. CEDH. You

13:37

are misusing the tool. So can

13:39

you explain to me the CEDH

13:41

designation? Sure. So there are five

13:43

brackets. Bracket number one. Can I

13:45

actually just jump in for a

13:47

really quick second? I think there

13:49

and this I've passed this information

13:51

along to some people. I think

13:53

of their biggest mistakes was they've

13:56

named all these brackets. Yeah. Exhibition,

13:58

core, upgraded, optimized, CEDH. Yeah. That's

14:00

what they should have been called.

14:02

Yeah. Putting numbers on top of

14:04

them with a massive mistake. I

14:06

was about to say this. for

14:08

any other reason just because human

14:10

brains see numbers and they do

14:13

funky things yeah they go oh

14:15

they replaced the one through ten

14:17

system with a one through five

14:19

system and my deck's like yeah

14:21

it's like three and a half

14:23

correct and it's like no yeah

14:25

could have avoided a lot of

14:27

this had you just named the

14:30

brackets alone and not numbers them

14:32

so you know what I'll do

14:34

that we're gonna title this episode

14:36

every deck is a three and

14:38

a half yeah there are there

14:40

are there are five brackets Nelson

14:42

no the the the lowest bracket

14:44

It's called exhibition. Great. A casual

14:46

commander deck. No mass land denial,

14:49

no extra turns, no two card

14:51

infinite combos, no game changers, a

14:53

few tutors, but not the tutors,

14:55

only the game changers. A core

14:57

deck. I imagine most decks are

14:59

this. Okay. No mass land denial,

15:01

no chaining extra turns, no two

15:03

card infinite, no game changers, a

15:06

few tutors. But not the game

15:08

changers. Okay. Upgraded. No mass land

15:10

denial, no chaininganings. You can have

15:12

a two card infinite combo, late

15:14

game, two card infinite combo, and

15:16

you may have three cards from

15:18

the game changer list. So that's,

15:20

even if you've taken your deck

15:22

and you've upgraded and tuned it

15:25

great, if you don't have mass

15:27

land denial or extra or extra

15:29

turns or these game changers, it's

15:31

still a two. I have upgraded

15:33

a deck. It's still a two.

15:35

Yep. The next bracket is optimized.

15:37

There are no restrictions other than

15:39

the band list. And then the

15:42

next bracket is CEDH, which they

15:44

say is a high power with

15:46

a very competitive and meta game

15:48

focused mindset. Again, no restrictions other

15:50

than the bad list. So the

15:52

difference between four and five is

15:54

I have a really tuned up

15:56

very powerful commander deck that will

15:59

crush you. and this is a

16:01

CDH deck that's working on the

16:03

meta. Yeah, like that's the

16:05

delineation between four and five.

16:07

Yeah, I have made I have

16:09

made this deck to play CDH

16:11

with. Yeah. It is the special

16:13

CDH bracket. It is not, you

16:15

know, you can bring it to

16:17

a regular commander table. but it

16:19

may or may not perform super

16:21

well if you are dealing with

16:23

a bunch of people who are,

16:25

you know, playing numpty cards and

16:27

you are hypertuned for a specific

16:29

meta, right? Of like, these cards

16:32

are always in because there are

16:34

certain meta cards, I'm not a

16:36

CEDH, but there are certain meta

16:38

cards, I'm not a CEDH player,

16:40

but there are certain meta cards,

16:43

I'm not, none of us are

16:45

really CEDH players, but it does

16:47

sound like. Yeah, the difference between

16:49

four and five is mostly like

16:51

a meta game choices. Like there's no

16:53

hard rules between the two. And

16:55

that, this is actually my biggest

16:58

complaint. I mean between CDH and

17:00

optimal and optimized. So this is

17:02

actually my biggest complaint about the

17:04

current beta version of the bracket

17:07

system is that up to there,

17:09

everything's very clear as I've been

17:11

loudly yelling at you. But the difference between

17:13

four and five does leave a lot

17:16

more room open for the kind of

17:18

vibes that I thought we were sort

17:20

of trying to avoid by this whole

17:22

system. But the, in the article again,

17:25

they talk about how the sort of

17:27

CDH. advocates on the commander

17:29

rules panel were like, no, no,

17:31

there has to be a difference

17:33

between I have a very powerful

17:35

tuned up commander deck and I

17:38

am playing CDH. I'm playing a

17:40

specific meta variant of commander.

17:42

Yeah, but I like to harken

17:44

back to your comment, from my

17:46

position, it does seem like, yeah,

17:48

you could play a CDH game

17:51

with a deck from any of

17:53

the four brackets just because you

17:55

like... It's sort of a mindset, right? Like,

17:57

a game of CEDH, if I understand this

17:59

correct. often will have like a prize

18:01

at the end of the game or

18:04

like an advancement like points in a

18:06

Swiss tournament or whatever the tournament's working,

18:08

but there's like some tangible thing to

18:10

gain by getting either a draw point

18:12

or a win out of the game.

18:14

And so they're playing like tournament players

18:17

and they're there to win the game

18:19

versus most games of commander which are

18:21

about like hanging out hopefully you can

18:23

see what your deck does when it

18:25

interacts with other people's decks do and

18:27

cracking jokes with your buddies. Right. But

18:30

if you just happen to like you

18:32

might want to let people know or

18:34

whatever like. I guess there's no pre-game

18:36

conversation necessary in CDAH. So the brackets

18:38

aren't really relevant? Yeah, I think it's

18:40

just basically to give, like this is

18:43

why I actually, you know, despite the

18:45

fact that I don't really play CDAH,

18:47

I do think it's important to be

18:49

like... to be like no no there's

18:51

a CDH category and because it's not

18:53

like an official like recognized thing but

18:56

it's like you know do they have

18:58

their own points list like Highlander does

19:00

they don't they have the same and

19:02

this has been I know this has

19:04

been this has been another point of

19:06

contention that's swamps my social media feed

19:09

from time to time it's just that

19:11

like some people within the community want

19:13

there to be their own band list

19:15

but then a large portion of the

19:17

and certainly the entrenched you know last

19:19

year's holders of the commander reins were

19:22

like no no we don't want a

19:24

second band list right yeah and so

19:26

it seems like four of hell still

19:28

doesn't want that it's splinters and makes

19:30

the the format sure more separate and

19:32

like I guess that I think it's

19:35

just like yeah I think maybe what

19:37

it is is like yeah like CDH

19:39

players have this special category because their

19:41

decks are functioning in a different meta.

19:43

But also I think it's important to

19:46

talk about the intent of the deck.

19:48

The intent of a normal commander deck,

19:50

when you said, I'll get to see

19:52

my cool thing. And like some people

19:54

look at this orbital laser I've built,

19:56

you know, it's an incredibly sophisticated deck.

19:59

There's your bracket fours. I want to

20:01

see if I... deploy my orbital laser

20:03

before you deploy your orbital laser this

20:05

game is over in five turns even

20:07

though we're playing commander right you know

20:09

that's a bracket four game where a

20:12

CDH is nobody cares about deploying their

20:14

their their laser they are there to

20:16

dismember you in any way possible as

20:18

quickly as possible and win right so

20:20

it's a different meta even though they

20:22

are using very powerful cards Does that

20:25

because a commander is still even if

20:27

you're using very powerful decks you've got

20:29

these fours which are very beatable if

20:31

they get a bad draw Even against

20:33

it too You're still just like you're

20:35

playing for fun'sies You know, right. It's

20:38

more just about the whole point of

20:40

the bracket is to is to help

20:42

you with the pre-game conversation Exactly. So

20:44

in CDH, it's just like, hey, I

20:46

want to play CDH. Pretty big conversation

20:48

over. Yeah, exactly. I'm playing CDH. I

20:51

don't care about, I'm not, there's no

20:53

politics here of let me do a

20:55

cool thing. It's every man for themselves,

20:57

or every person for themselves. Yeah, for

20:59

sure. But for a regular commander game,

21:01

people come hoping to know that. Obviously

21:04

and this is brought up in multiple

21:06

parts of the bracket. You're not gonna

21:08

armageddon me You know exactly and armageddon

21:10

me next turn bro I promise this

21:12

is cool right right I think the

21:14

next the next piece of technology from

21:17

the you know vibes I get from

21:19

reading commander players grapes because that's a

21:21

big part of my social media for

21:23

whatever reason is that people need to

21:25

establish some pre-gang conversation or there needs

21:27

to be some sort of like massively

21:30

adopted house rule that if you're wipe

21:32

the board of all the creatures you

21:34

need to also kill everyone the next

21:36

turn yeah you know there's a Rachel

21:38

that seems like it's important important important

21:41

about this like Wendy when is when

21:43

is it appropriate to play a board

21:45

wipe and it's just like I don't

21:47

know man if you're late in the

21:49

game you have to figure out a

21:51

way to close it out you can't

21:54

just reset everybody back to the stone

21:56

age and be like well we're playing

21:58

for another now or now you're all

22:00

second here with me yeah exactly that's

22:02

that's low-key bim here Yeah, I mean

22:04

this is this is like the most

22:07

curmudgeonly take. But that would be fine

22:09

in CDH. Yeah, of course. Because it's

22:11

about winning. It's a but yeah, give

22:13

yourself one more drawstep, any chance to

22:15

win, right? This is definitely. a curmugently

22:17

take, but like, you know, this whole

22:20

format started as a thing for exhausted

22:22

judges to do after a day judging

22:24

a GP at the pub, right? This

22:26

was not meant to be sweaty. Right.

22:28

People want to make it that? Fine.

22:30

You can do that with other people

22:33

that want to do that, right? But

22:35

like. It's, this is supposed to be

22:37

a social, a social game. It's a,

22:39

yeah, social, it value, like the, I

22:41

would say the original modus operandi of

22:43

Commander was to, was to value social,

22:46

social, social format for magic, the gathering,

22:48

where you could put together a deck

22:50

that really reflected the way that you

22:52

like to play magic. You could be

22:54

annoying. Like me. I'm curious now if

22:56

they're. if I was wrong and the

22:59

CDH players do have a pre-game conversation,

23:01

I would think in a tournament they

23:03

don't even get to. But I wonder

23:05

if there's like CDPods that meet for

23:07

fun and to practice or whatever and

23:09

then they're like, okay, pre-game conversation, no

23:12

X, Y, Z, I don't know, you

23:14

know what I mean? Like, maybe I'm

23:16

wrong. It'd be neat if that, I'd

23:18

be, I'd love to know in the

23:20

comments if you're a CEDH player and

23:22

you're like, and you're like, actually, actually,

23:25

actually, actually, actually, actually, actually, we pre-game

23:27

conversation all the time and it goes

23:29

like this. Yeah, yeah, if we're misrepresenting

23:31

the intent of CDH, which I assume

23:33

that if it's a competitive environment, the

23:36

goal is to win. But if we

23:38

are, if you're a CDH player, let

23:40

us know what your mindset is for

23:42

playing it. Yeah, and, and again, my

23:44

sort of big, like, thing that I

23:46

was like, I want to, I want

23:49

to get into this on, on tap-tap,

23:51

was that by Wizard of mission, this,

23:53

this, using this, using this system. which

23:55

I again iterate is in beta. You

23:57

can still say, like, yeah, my deck

23:59

technically is in bracket two, but I

24:02

play it against fours because it's very

24:04

powerful. You can do that. Yeah, you

24:06

can have a really good synergistic too.

24:08

I'm just from like a pedantically. technical

24:10

point, there is no such thing as

24:12

a 2.5. That's what kept sending me

24:15

up the wall is like, I think

24:17

that there's a high likelihood that some

24:19

people don't actually get what this bracket

24:21

system is meant to be doing. And

24:23

I agree with James that putting the

24:25

numbers on it. didn't help because then

24:28

people are like oh we've just replaced

24:30

a 10 point system with a five

24:32

point system and it's all just sort

24:34

of you know there's there's decimal places

24:36

between there whereas it's it's not about

24:38

power level it's just about knowing that

24:41

you're not going to have someone take

24:43

like three extra turns in a row.

24:45

Yeah we're moving away from the pitch

24:47

fork rating scale of decks where I

24:49

mean though really though right what's the

24:51

context okay so pitch fork media is

24:54

a website rates albums out of 10

24:56

and so many people have said but

24:58

what's the difference between a 7.5 and

25:00

a 7.3? Because they rate them out

25:02

of 100 actually. Yes. Yeah. They rate

25:04

them out of 100. They say it's

25:07

a 10-point system, but they use every

25:09

part of the decimal places. Yeah. Well,

25:11

one. Yeah. Well, you could have an

25:13

8.0. You could have an 8.0. But

25:15

what's the difference between an 8.0 and

25:17

an 8.0? What's the difference between an

25:20

8.0 and an 8.2? What gives them?

25:22

What gives them? a series of buckets.

25:24

You can't be in bucket, there can't

25:26

be half in bucket two and half

25:28

in bucket three. Your drag only fits

25:31

in one bucket at a time. If

25:33

you try to put one foot in

25:35

two different buckets, you could slip and

25:37

pull your groin. Oh my gosh. You'll

25:39

fall over. Yeah, you'll take a bucket

25:41

to the nether agent. You should put

25:44

one of the buckets on your head

25:46

and then learn to play the guitar

25:48

like an absolute master. Well the point

25:50

being you can't like, you know, you

25:52

can't drape it over the two buckets.

25:54

It's like there's a bucket here and

25:57

a bucket here and a bucket here

25:59

and a bucket here and a bucket

26:01

wait. over there where they have different

26:03

rules for the buckets, right? So you

26:05

just have to say, which one of,

26:07

I have to pick one of these

26:10

places to stand, or I have to

26:12

be in one of these buckets, maybe

26:14

you're at the top of the bucket

26:16

if that makes you feel better, but

26:18

you're still in that second bucket. Fair.

26:20

Yeah, sure. All the heatren crabs below

26:23

you, pulling you back down. Yeah. All

26:25

right, so I was gonna say I

26:27

have an answer to your CEDH pre-game

26:29

conversations. Okay, real time. Yeah, I reached

26:31

out to Louis Stardst, who is a

26:33

subscribe baby fame, and the most prominent

26:36

CEDH player I know, and they came

26:38

back and said, not really. With CEDH,

26:40

it's generally rule zero because it's the

26:42

understanding that you were all playing at

26:44

the highest strongest capacity of magic. There

26:46

you go. You can still say what

26:49

kind of deck and strategy you're playing,

26:51

but you don't have to. If it's

26:53

your first time and you'd like for

26:55

your audience, you absolutely can, but you

26:57

don't need to reveal what your deck

26:59

is doing other than to other players.

27:02

If you don't want to, it's not

27:04

necessary. So yeah, it's it's magic. So

27:06

it's like playing regular magic. Yeah, it's

27:08

just like playing regular magic for people

27:10

sitting down other than two and just

27:12

trying to win. Cool. Thanks, Loua. And

27:15

yeah, I. Yeah, thank you. Thanks, James,

27:17

for the real-time research. Thank you for

27:19

weighing in from an expert. So there

27:21

you go. Play hard. That's CDA. And

27:23

no, being like, oh, I'm going to

27:26

make an infinite combo with lots of

27:28

I have. This is a food deck.

27:30

This is a food deck. This is

27:32

a food deck. This is a food

27:34

deck. This is a food deck. This

27:36

is a food deck. This is a

27:39

food deck. Right, and that can still

27:41

be really powerful. Like the Gamechangers list

27:43

doesn't have soul ring on it, right?

27:45

And it's pretty small. Correct, soul ring

27:47

is intrinsic to the format. Right, so

27:49

if you just hit your soul ring

27:52

early and then hit some more man

27:54

or ramp, like anything you do is

27:56

really powerful when you have like six

27:58

man or ramp, like anything you do

28:00

is really powerful when you have like

28:02

six mano on turn three. Right, like

28:05

that's very powerful when you have six.

28:07

Like I don't think rampant growth counts

28:09

as a tutor, for example. There's the,

28:11

what's the fairy that gets you a

28:13

spell? That's a tutor, because it searches

28:15

my deck for something, and I can't

28:18

remember what it's called. But like I'm

28:20

running that. Like Trinket Mage, where it's

28:22

like a specific tutor, it's not demonic,

28:24

and rampant growth. art tutors, but everything

28:26

else is a tutor. I guess. Or

28:28

wait, if you put it in your

28:31

deck, but then you only search for

28:33

a land with it. Is it still?

28:35

Technically it's still a tutor because that's

28:37

a restriction you're putting on top of

28:39

what the card does? All right, right.

28:41

So if it could get a card

28:44

that's not a land. Yeah. But not

28:46

expedition map, hey? You can still do

28:48

that in bracket one. You can still

28:50

have a few tutors. Yeah, a few

28:52

tutors. As a treat. Right. But say

28:54

you play three tutors that can get

28:57

whatever. and then you can also run

28:59

all of the Fetchlands expedition map and

29:01

Ursus Cave and you're still in bucket

29:03

one. They do say at the outset

29:05

they can't account for bad actors. We've

29:07

got hard rules here Graham. That's what

29:10

the whole thing's been about. Okay yeah.

29:12

I mean like the thing is I

29:14

mean one is supposed to be like

29:16

a more goof town flavor deck than

29:18

a tuned deck. But like maybe you're

29:21

mining themed. Sure. You could have all

29:23

of those things, I guess, if you're

29:25

playing a mining-themed deck, lots of dwarfs.

29:27

Yeah, I mean, I just think it

29:29

can be totally reasonable. I'm trying to

29:31

make this argument, and I'm not 100%

29:34

sure, but it feels like you could

29:36

sit down and be like, hey, yeah,

29:38

I've got a, you know, gearhead deck

29:40

here that's like based around landfall, takes

29:42

a lot of game actions every turn,

29:44

tries to man ramp up past 10

29:47

lands before Turn five, and has a

29:49

really high lands before turn five, and

29:51

has a really high, has a really

29:53

high, But what makes it bracket one?

29:55

What's the theming that makes it bracket

29:57

one? Well, it's not theming. It's the

30:00

absence of... It's the hard rules around

30:02

bracket one. That's what I'm seeing. Yeah.

30:04

I don't... have more than three tutors

30:06

except the ones that go get lance

30:08

which is what most of what my

30:10

deck does yeah I go and get

30:13

lots of lance right and I don't

30:15

have any cards in the game trader's

30:17

list mhm and that's it and you're

30:19

casting big dumb dinosaurs with it because

30:21

that's what you're using on your land

30:23

for right no I'm gonna like kill

30:26

you with valicate the molten pinnacle okay

30:28

so then then then that would be

30:30

one of those things where I said

30:32

where it's like It's bracket one, but

30:34

I play against two. Well, but right,

30:36

but here's the thing. Sure, you can

30:39

say you play against two. Right, but

30:41

a deck is, we've been, we've been

30:43

going on about it. Yeah, but it's

30:45

either a one or a two. It

30:47

has to be one of the others.

30:49

But one does have some specific stuff

30:52

that two doesn't. Like one does have

30:54

an expectation that it's a bit more

30:56

goofy, that's something unusual you've made. Okay.

30:58

Villains yelling in the art, everything has

31:00

the number four, oops, oops, oops, oops,

31:02

oops, oops, all horses, all horses. These

31:05

games are likely to go long and

31:07

end slowly. Okay. Sure. Okay. So if

31:09

you're like, I know how to play

31:11

magic, and I built this deck to

31:13

win inside of the restrictions, then it

31:15

has to be a two? I think

31:18

that is more in the spirit of

31:20

a two. I think the spirit of

31:22

a one is like the bracket says.

31:24

Oops all horses. Oops all horses. Only

31:26

ladies looking to the left? Yeah, exactly.

31:29

Yeah. Okay. Yeah, this is my goof

31:31

town deck. This is a silly thing

31:33

that I have made because I wanted

31:35

to do the thing more than I

31:37

wanted to win. So when you're talking

31:39

about all of your cards tutoring up

31:42

and then I'm going to kill you

31:44

with Vallekett, the molten pinnacle, right? That

31:46

to me says, okay, so maybe it's

31:48

not a great two, but it's a

31:50

two. But it's like, no, because I

31:52

want to cast all of these dinosaurs.

31:55

Every creature is a dinosaur. All right,

31:57

but this is why you have these

31:59

conversations sure Okay, dokey we have a

32:01

few more minutes We we have a

32:03

shorter shorter episode this week, but Nelson.

32:05

Yeah, talk a little bit about playing

32:08

ether drift Okay, which I know that

32:10

we're talking about so many other sets,

32:12

but technically is the current set it's

32:14

like current set and I haven't been

32:16

super drawn into it. I'll admit I

32:18

was, I had to miss the pre-release

32:21

or the PR because I was sick,

32:23

right? I think I couldn't show up

32:25

that day so that was too bad.

32:27

I got to hang out with all

32:29

the guests a couple days before it

32:31

was just nice for me. But just

32:34

the format hasn't really hasn't grabbed me

32:36

and I think my main complaint is

32:38

just that the speed mechanic while. cool

32:40

and does like like I like that

32:42

it's called speed and I like that

32:44

you gain speed I don't mind that

32:47

I don't mind that like the cards

32:49

take a little while to speed up

32:51

that is all not a criticism but

32:53

what I find in games is that

32:55

like where every deck is trying to

32:57

get to max speed is kind of

33:00

like it's both slow and it's like

33:02

both players are priced into kind of

33:04

playing more slowly and defensively because if

33:06

you can get to max speed then

33:08

your cards are like better in the

33:10

lake game. The common cycle is just

33:13

pay three from your graveyard after this

33:15

card's in your graveyard exile to draw

33:17

card if you've got max speed right

33:19

like that's there's one of those I

33:21

think well I can't remember the names

33:24

of any of them sure There's the

33:26

glitch ghost. I think is the blue

33:28

one. Yeah, a blue flyer. Yeah, from

33:30

from that one from that description. Yeah,

33:32

it's a blue. There are surveyors. There's

33:34

all surveyors. There are all surveyors. There's

33:37

all surveyors. There's surveyors. There's a surveyor

33:39

cycle. And then there's also some that

33:41

have like a manasink or there's a

33:43

good. This gives you a wind condition

33:45

for not even attacking. It's one blue

33:47

blue. It's an artifact. It looks like

33:50

a little fish or a boat. A

33:52

fish grapple on the side of a

33:54

boat, I think. Something like that. It's

33:56

called like ether something, something? Yeah. I

33:58

think they're siphon? Either siphon. Yeah. Yeah.

34:00

Yeah. That's the one. Thanks, James. Appreciate

34:03

you. Why don't I remember any card

34:05

names from this set? Right. Oh boy.

34:07

Maybe you haven't playing. I never, I,

34:09

yeah. See, it's, it looks like a

34:11

little fish thing. Right. Yeah. So ether

34:13

siphon is like a pretty good example

34:16

of how it's like to get Max

34:18

speed and to win with these speed

34:20

cards. You just want to. carefully succeed

34:22

at sneaking in damage against your opponent

34:24

a few times. There's a bunch of

34:26

cards that don't require you to attack.

34:29

And so because your opponent's also trying

34:31

to do this and like attacking with

34:33

flyers or trample or menace are the

34:35

main way you're going to get your

34:37

speed to go up. You end up

34:39

in a situation where like both players

34:42

are often... trying to just stop the

34:44

other player from getting to max speed

34:46

as like priority number one. And so

34:48

like counterintuitively the concept of getting to

34:50

maximum speed is actually slowing the game

34:52

right down. For sure, yeah, like you

34:55

don't you don't necessarily benefit by... going

34:57

shields down while you get to max

34:59

speed but letting your opponent get to

35:01

max the only time it would benefit

35:03

you from going shields down to go

35:05

to max speed is when you would

35:08

get max speed a lot before your

35:10

opponent yeah if you're a whole if

35:12

you're a whole step ahead of the

35:14

race than your opponent then maybe you

35:16

can do that till you're at max

35:19

speed and then you want to slow

35:21

the game down because you already got

35:23

the your advantage but yeah you're right

35:25

like it doesn't it it actively deincentivizes

35:27

racing Right. Regular racing that we think

35:29

of in magic as taking your opponent

35:32

down to 20 before they take you

35:34

down to 20, but engaging in the

35:36

act of hitting each other. Yeah. Right?

35:38

Like engaging in, okay, yeah, I'm gonna

35:40

attack into your creature and you'll probably

35:42

choose not to blow me back, right?

35:45

We have not a mechanic, but we

35:47

have an occurrence in magic that for

35:49

years has been called racing. Right. And

35:51

this mechanic seems like it should encourage.

35:53

racing as we know it, but in

35:55

fact, it just makes people want to

35:58

go, whoop, shields up. Yeah, because people

36:00

perceive a loss of advantage. as worse

36:02

for them than a gaining of incremental

36:04

advantage, right? People would be more, people

36:06

would be more, people are more wanting

36:08

to shut their opponents down from gaining

36:11

speed than they are willing to take

36:13

a risk to gain speed unless there's

36:15

a clear benefit. I mean, ether siphon

36:17

wins games, for sure. Yeah, but the

36:19

thing is, you know, yeah, for sure.

36:21

But a mill card is by definition

36:23

a slow strategy. So it makes you

36:25

want to, like Nelson said, very incrementally

36:27

build yourself up so you can close

36:30

out the late game. Yeah, so I

36:32

don't know if this this could either

36:34

be a cold take where like various

36:36

other limited strategy podcasts figured this out

36:39

a month ago or whatever that's fine

36:41

I haven't heard them say it sorry

36:43

I've been super plugged in but It

36:45

also might just be missing the mark

36:48

or like an early on Observation that

36:50

I would change my mind about after

36:52

playing a whole bunch, but yeah, it feels

36:54

like while there is a cool

36:57

flavorful thing here and a mechanic

36:59

deemed for it the gameplay doesn't

37:01

actually like line up smoothly with

37:03

what we envision as the flavor of

37:05

racing right and so yeah that's been

37:07

kind of a drag for me I

37:09

haven't been playing a ton of the

37:11

format for that reason but I haven't

37:13

been playing a ton of the format

37:15

because I have been sick busy

37:17

traveling and then very busy and

37:20

I feel bad but like and

37:22

a lot of those overlapped

37:24

oh life has really conspired

37:27

against me in the past

37:29

not the sick and traveling to

37:31

be clear no like I got

37:33

I was I recovered from I

37:36

would say of serious illness in

37:38

time to immediately travel yeah

37:40

so which is also hard

37:42

on your body obviously yeah yeah

37:44

so yeah this format It's got that

37:46

little strike against it. A bunch of the

37:49

cards are still really cool. Like I'm looking

37:51

forward to continuing to play gas guzzler in

37:53

Canadian Highlander for probably years to come. I've

37:55

been I've been enjoying the limited format well

37:57

enough. Like I think it's been it's been

37:59

fun. enough I have I have noticed

38:02

I didn't twig to it but until

38:04

you mentioned it but I have noticed

38:06

that gameplay occurrence of like people shutting

38:08

the board down when it's like two

38:11

or three speed right formats that like

38:13

limited environments that tend to stall out

38:15

all Often they reward you for like,

38:17

oh yeah, really stellar. Yeah, that's another

38:20

thing we said to Magic before, right?

38:22

Often they tend to reward like really

38:24

precise gameplay and knowledge of the format,

38:26

right? Like as the format leads more

38:29

towards like every game is at least

38:31

eight turns or whatever and both players

38:33

know to like try to go slow.

38:35

Like it tends to reward really good

38:38

limited play. So that's cool. That's fun.

38:40

Yeah. Kamagawa Neon Dynasty was one of

38:42

those four maps that went super long

38:45

and you would get these really tight

38:47

intricate games. Honestly, love that. I want

38:49

to play a 12-turn game where it's

38:51

like, I'm sweating by the end of

38:54

it. That's the most fun magic. But

38:56

it's hard to deliver on the sort

38:58

of intrinsic promise of ether drift like

39:00

goes fast as you can, you know,

39:03

play three drafts in an hour or

39:05

whatever. Except like, except like, careful, mill

39:07

your opponents out, you know. Attacked for

39:09

one in the air. Yeah. I mean,

39:12

one of the best, is it an

39:14

uncommon? One of the best, like, cards

39:16

in, like, demer is the packed all

39:18

terror, which is just like, like, draining.

39:21

Yeah, and I love it. I love

39:23

winning a game like that. Yeah, exactly.

39:25

Yeah, nobody attacks, right? I just play

39:28

this and I play another artifact the

39:30

next day. It's not even in demeanours.

39:32

It's just in black. It's a common

39:34

too, yeah. But there's a demer uncommon

39:37

as well that also just like, haunt

39:39

network. Yeah, it makes, yeah, it makes

39:41

some artifacts and makes your opponent lose

39:43

life on your own turn without attacking.

39:46

Number of artifacts you control. Yeah, it's

39:48

just a demere burn spell spell spell

39:50

spell. Yeah, burn spell. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

39:52

yeah, burn spell, yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty

39:55

stoked on winter's hair. Yeah, I like

39:57

winter. People are like, he's a bad

39:59

guy. I love bad guys. Give me

40:01

all the bad guys. They're more, they're,

40:04

bad guys are more fun to write.

40:06

Okay. There more fun, you get a

40:08

greater emotional attachment to them quicker because

40:11

boy is it easy to hate people.

40:13

Right. And got people who exploit that

40:15

all the time now. But they get,

40:17

they get, they get to do more

40:20

fun things. Good guys have to be

40:22

bogged down by things like morals and

40:24

you know, doing the right thing and

40:26

not murdering everyone in who gets in

40:29

their way. But bad guys get to

40:31

go. No. Results first. Quams never. Pachow.

40:33

If you wanted to get yourself a

40:35

whole bunch of bad guys, where could

40:38

you order them from? Oh, I would

40:40

go to actually a very good place,

40:42

despite what I've just been saying. I

40:44

would go to cardkingdom.com and order all

40:47

my favorite villains. But you would remember

40:49

to add the suffix of slash LRR.

40:51

Or a loading rate run. It's LRR.

40:53

It's LRR. It's LRR. We got to

40:56

send them some new ones. I think

40:58

they're on a kingdom of cards at

41:00

the moment. Oh, the backup button. Yeah.

41:03

All right. So if you've got any

41:05

suggestions for card kingdom buttons. Ooh. There's

41:07

a good idea. That's an engagement. Ooh,

41:09

that's an engagement. Or you want to

41:12

expand on what Lewis said. You probably

41:14

shouldn't. Or you want to expand on

41:16

what Lewis said. You probably shouldn't actually.

41:18

If we said something that was particularly

41:21

funny. that you think would make a

41:23

good one inch button. Aside from villains

41:25

or the best. Also, Dragon Shield, you

41:27

can use the code LRMTG5 to get

41:30

yourself 5% discount and everything that we

41:32

do here is brought to you by

41:34

you and your support of our patron,

41:36

patron.com, slash loading ready run, or becoming

41:39

a member on this very YouTube channel.

41:41

Until next time, I look forward to

41:43

your comments. I have been great. I'm

41:46

joined by Nelson. Hey, thanks for listening.

41:48

And Kathleen. Let us know what you

41:50

think in the comments below. James has

41:52

been on tech. He's got these online.

41:55

Thank you all someone for watching and

41:57

listening. And we'll talk to you next

41:59

time. Bye everybody.