0:01

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

0:04

Each new year brings you new opportunities.

0:06

It's like a book with blank

0:08

pages just waiting to be filled. So

0:11

instead of making resolutions about your

0:13

life that often fade by February,

0:15

it's time to pick up the

0:17

pen and become the author of

0:20

your own story. Maybe you're ready

0:22

for a plot twist. Maybe you're

0:24

looking for a new love interest.

0:26

Maybe you're thinking your story needs

0:28

a new setting. Think of therapy

0:30

as your editorial partner, helping you

0:32

write new chapters and create the

0:34

meaningful story you deserve to live.

0:36

Working with a therapist on a

0:38

regular basis is not just for

0:40

those who've experienced major trauma. It's

0:42

a great way to learn

0:44

how to set boundaries, improve

0:46

communication skills, increase self -awareness

0:48

and self -esteem, and much more.

0:51

BetterHelp is entirely online, making

0:53

therapy affordable and convenient. You'll

0:56

have access to a diverse

0:58

network of more than 30 ,000

1:00

credentialed therapists with a wide

1:02

range of specialties. Plus, you

1:04

can easily switch therapists anytime

1:06

at no extra cost. Write

1:09

your story with

1:11

BetterHelp. Visit betterhelp.com/Alan today

1:14

to get 10 %

1:16

off your first

1:18

month. That's BetterHelp H

1:20

-E -L -p.com/Alan. Welcome

1:39

to the Alan Watts podcast, Being in

1:41

the Way, and I'm your host

1:43

Mark Watts. And today we're going to

1:45

revisit one of our earliest podcasts

1:47

and sample Taoist Way of dropping out

1:49

from karma, which is one of

1:51

the first talks on Taoism that we

1:53

ever released. that's

1:57

recent talks on Taoism.

1:59

It's called Wisdom of the Water

2:02

Course. And these two talks

2:04

complement each other beautifully. I

2:06

think you'll enjoy the flow,

2:08

and we're gonna start with

2:10

a little bit of my

2:12

introduction from the original episode

2:14

one, and then we're going

2:16

to go right into the

2:18

second recording on Wisdom of

2:20

the Water Course. very simple

2:22

and it's based on everything

2:24

having its own path or

2:26

course the Tao of things

2:29

and it originated as a

2:31

form of folk wisdom or

2:33

what we might describe as

2:35

kitchen table wisdom and in

2:37

early rural culture in China

2:39

it was observed that there

2:41

were better and worse approaches

2:43

to things or let's just

2:45

say ones that were more

2:47

effective and these are typically

2:49

described as splitting wood with

2:51

the grain or even putting

2:53

up a sale instead of

2:55

rowing. There's a lot of

2:57

ingenuity in the way that

2:59

these practices were explained to

3:02

people. And so finally, after

3:04

probably many generations of existing

3:06

as an oral tradition, these

3:08

were codified. Theoretically... as a

3:10

manual for the rulers, who

3:12

at that time during the

3:14

warring states period were not

3:16

doing much of a job

3:18

of it. So we're going

3:20

to delight in sharing both

3:22

these newly discovered works and

3:24

also some of the classics,

3:26

some of the things that

3:28

have been lighting up the

3:30

internet in recent years. And

3:33

we're going to begin with

3:35

a seminar that was recorded

3:37

at the Eslin Institute, Taoist

3:39

way of dropping out from

3:41

Karma. And in the second

3:43

session you'll hear him talking

3:45

about the Indian idea of

3:47

Karma and how it relates

3:49

to our participation in the

3:51

world. And we start today

3:53

with Taoist way of dropping

3:55

out from Karma. This show

3:57

is sponsored by Better Help.

4:00

Each new year brings you new opportunities.

4:02

It's like a book with blank

4:05

pages just waiting to be filled.

4:07

So instead of making resolutions about

4:09

your life that often fade by

4:11

February, it's time to pick up

4:13

the pen and become the author

4:15

of your own story. Maybe you're

4:17

ready for a plot twist. Maybe

4:19

you're looking for a new love

4:21

interest. Maybe you're thinking your story

4:24

needs a new setting. Think of

4:26

therapy as your editorial partner. helping

4:28

you write new chapters and create

4:30

the meaningful story you deserve

4:32

to live. Working with a

4:34

therapist on a regular basis

4:36

is not just for those

4:38

who've experienced major trauma. It's

4:40

a great way to learn

4:43

how to set boundaries, improve

4:45

communication skills, increase self-awareness and

4:47

self-esteem, and much more. Better

4:49

help is entirely online, making

4:51

therapy affordable and convenient. You'll

4:53

have access to a diverse

4:55

network of more than 30,000

4:57

credentialed therapists with a wide

4:59

range of specialties, but you

5:02

can easily switch therapists

5:04

anytime at no extra

5:06

cost. Write your story

5:08

with Better Help. Visit

5:10

betterhelp.com/Allen today to get

5:12

10% off your first

5:14

month. That's Better Help,

5:17

H-E-L-P,.com slash Allen. The

5:29

philosophy of the Tao

5:31

is one of the two

5:34

great principal components

5:36

of Chinese thought. There are

5:39

of course quite a number

5:41

of forms of Chinese

5:43

philosophy, but there are

5:46

two great currents which

5:48

have thoroughly molded

5:50

the culture of China, and

5:52

they are Taoism and

5:55

Confucianism. and

5:57

they play a curious. game

6:00

with each other. Confucius

6:03

said the goody-goodies

6:05

are the thieves

6:07

of virtue, meaning that

6:09

to try to be

6:12

wholly righteous is to

6:14

go beyond humanity,

6:16

to try to be something

6:19

that isn't human. So

6:21

this gives confusion to

6:24

life and justice and...

6:26

all those sort of

6:29

things, a kind of

6:31

queer humor. A sort

6:33

of boys will be

6:35

boys attitude, which is nevertheless

6:38

a very mature way

6:40

of handling human

6:43

problems. It

6:45

was, of course,

6:47

for this reason

6:49

that the Japanese

6:52

Buddhist priests who

6:54

visited China to

6:56

study Buddhism, introduced

6:58

Confucianism into Japan.

7:00

Because, despite certain

7:02

limitations that Confucianism

7:04

has, and it

7:06

always needs the

7:09

Tao philosophy as

7:11

a counterbalance, Confucianism

7:13

has been one of

7:15

the most successful philosophies

7:17

in all history for

7:19

the regulation of governmental

7:22

and family relationships.

7:27

But of course, it is

7:29

concerned with formality.

7:31

Confucianism prescribes

7:34

all kinds of formal

7:36

relationships, linguistic, ceremonial, musical,

7:39

and etiquette in all

7:42

the spheres of morals.

7:44

And for this reason

7:47

has always been twitted

7:50

by the Taoists, for

7:52

being unnatural. You

7:55

need these two components you see

7:57

and they play against each other

8:00

beautifully Chinese society. Roughly

8:02

speaking, you see, the Confucian

8:04

way of life is for

8:06

people involved in the

8:08

world. The Taoist way of life

8:11

is for people who get

8:13

disentangled. Now as we know

8:15

in our own modern times

8:18

there are various ways of

8:20

getting disentangled from the regular

8:22

lifestyle, say, of the United

8:24

States. If you want to

8:26

go through the regular lifestyle

8:28

of the United States, you

8:30

go to high school and

8:32

college, and then you go

8:34

into a profession or a

8:36

business, and you own a

8:38

standard house, and you raise

8:40

a family, and you have

8:42

a car or two cars,

8:44

and do all that jazz. But a

8:46

lot of people don't want to

8:48

live that way. And there are lots

8:50

of other ways of living besides that.

8:54

So you could say that

8:56

those of us who go

8:58

along with the pattern correspond

9:01

to the Confucians and those

9:03

who are Bohemians or Bums

9:06

or Beatnicks or whatever

9:08

and don't correspond with

9:10

the pattern They are

9:12

more like the Taoists Because

9:14

the Taoist is really actually

9:17

in in Chinese history Taoism

9:19

is a way of life for older

9:22

people the name

9:24

given to the founder of

9:26

Taoism means the old

9:28

boy and The legend is

9:30

that he when he was

9:32

born. He was already had

9:34

a white beard So it's

9:36

sort of like this that

9:38

when you have

9:41

contributed to society

9:43

when you've contributed

9:45

children and you've

9:47

contributed children and

9:49

brought them and

9:51

brought them and

9:54

you have assumed a

9:56

certain role in

9:58

social life. Then say now

10:00

it's time for me to find out

10:03

what it's all about. Who am

10:05

I ultimately behind my

10:07

outward personality? What is the

10:10

secret source of things? And

10:12

the latter half of life

10:14

is the preeminently excellent time

10:16

to find this out. It's

10:18

something to do when you

10:21

have finished with the family

10:23

business. I am not saying

10:25

that that is... a sort

10:27

of unavoidable strict rule. Of

10:30

course one can study the

10:32

Tao when very young because

10:34

it contains all kinds of

10:37

secrets in it as to

10:39

the performance of every kind

10:41

of art or craft or

10:43

business or any occupation whatsoever.

10:46

But it does in China

10:48

in a way it plays

10:50

that role of a kind

10:53

of safety valve. for

10:55

the more restricted

10:58

way of life

11:00

that Confucianism prescribes.

11:03

And there is a sort

11:06

of type in China who's

11:08

known as the old

11:10

rogue. He's a sort

11:13

of intellectual bum, often

11:16

found among scholars, who

11:18

is admired very

11:21

much. and who, a

11:23

type of character which

11:26

had an enormous influence

11:28

on the development of

11:31

the ideals of Zen

11:33

Buddhist life. He is

11:35

one, you see, who

11:37

goes with nature, rather

11:39

than against nature. Well

11:41

now, first of all,

11:44

I'm going to talk

11:46

about ideas which come

11:48

strictly out of Lauser's

11:51

book. the Tao de

11:53

Jing. And of course

11:56

the basic thing in

11:58

the whole... philosophy

12:01

is the conception

12:03

of Tao. This

12:05

word has many

12:08

meanings and the

12:10

book of Lauser

12:12

starts out by

12:14

saying that the

12:17

Tao which can

12:19

be spoken is

12:21

not the eternal

12:23

Tao. Or you

12:25

can, there's a

12:28

pun in there.

12:30

put into English.

12:32

You can't give

12:34

all the meanings

12:36

because the word

12:38

Tao means both

12:40

the way or

12:42

course of nature or

12:45

of everything. It also

12:47

means to speak. So

12:50

the actual opening phrase

12:52

of the book, following

12:55

this word Tao, is

12:57

this, you see, and

12:59

this character means can

13:02

be, or can, able,

13:04

something like that. So,

13:07

the way which can

13:09

be, then give it

13:12

its second meaning spoken,

13:14

described, uttered, but

13:16

it also means the

13:18

way that can be

13:20

weighed. Not W-E-E-I-G-H, but

13:23

W-A-A-Y-E-E-D, you know, you'd

13:25

have to invent that

13:27

word. the way

13:29

that can be traveled

13:31

perhaps is not the eternal

13:34

way. In other words,

13:36

there is no way

13:38

in which the Tao

13:40

or following the Tao

13:42

can, there's no recipe

13:44

for it. I can't give

13:46

you any do-it-yourself

13:48

instructions, A-B-C-D, as

13:50

to how it's

13:53

done. It

13:55

was like when Louis Armstrong was asked

13:57

what is jazz he said if you

14:00

have to ask you don't know. Now

14:04

that's awkward isn't

14:06

it? But we can

14:09

gather what it

14:11

is by absorbing certain

14:13

atmospheres and

14:15

attitudes connected with those

14:17

who follow it and

14:19

from the art and the

14:22

poetry and all the expressions and

14:24

the anecdotes and stories that illustrate

14:26

the philosophy of the way. So

14:31

this word then,

14:33

the way or the course of things,

14:37

is not, you must

14:39

understand this, some

14:41

Christian missionaries translated Dao

14:43

as the Logos. Taking

14:47

as their point of departure the

14:49

opening passage of Saint John's Gospel

14:51

in the beginning was the word.

14:54

Now if you look up a Chinese

14:56

translation of the Bible it says

14:58

in the beginning was

15:01

the Dao and the Dao was with

15:03

God and the Dao was God. The

15:07

same was in the beginning with God. All

15:09

things were made by it and without

15:11

it was not anything made that was made.

15:15

So they've substituted Dao there. Now

15:17

that may make a very funny

15:19

effect on a Chinese philosopher because

15:21

the idea of things being made

15:23

by the Dao is absurd. The

15:27

Dao is not a manufacturer and

15:30

it's not a governor. It

15:33

doesn't rule as it were in

15:35

the position of a king. Although

15:38

the book the Dao

15:40

Dajing is written for many

15:42

purposes but one of

15:44

its important purposes is as

15:46

a manual of guidance

15:48

for a ruler and what it

15:50

tells him is essentially rule

15:52

by not ruling. Don't

15:55

lord it over the people

15:57

and so he says the great Dao flows

16:00

everywhere, both to the left and to

16:02

the right. It

16:04

loves and nourishes all things, but does

16:06

not lord it over them. And

16:09

when good things are accomplished, it

16:13

lays no claim to them. In

16:15

other words, the Tao doesn't stand up

16:17

and say, I have made all of you,

16:19

I have filled this earth with its

16:21

beauty and glory, fall down before me and

16:23

worship. The

16:26

Tao, having done

16:28

anything, you know, always

16:31

escapes and is

16:33

not around to receive

16:35

any thanks

16:37

or acknowledgement because

16:40

it loves obscurity.

16:44

And Lao Tzu said, the

16:46

Tao is like water. It

16:48

always seeks the low level

16:50

which human beings

16:53

abhor. So

16:57

it's a very mysterious idea. Tao

17:02

then is not

17:04

really equivalent with any

17:06

western or Hindu

17:08

idea of God because

17:10

God is always associated

17:12

with being the Lord.

17:14

Even in India, the

17:16

Brahman is often called the

17:18

Supreme Lord, although that with

17:20

the term more strictly applicable

17:22

to Ishwara, the manifestation of

17:24

Brahman in the form of

17:27

a personal God. But

17:29

Bhagavan, the Lord, Krishna, his

17:31

song is the Bhagavad Gita, the

17:34

song of the Lord, there's

17:36

always the idea of the king

17:38

and the ruler attached, but not

17:41

in the Chinese Tao philosophy. The

17:44

Tao

17:47

is not something

17:49

different from nature,

17:53

from ourselves, from

17:56

our surrounding trees

17:58

and waters and air. The Tao

18:00

is the way all that

18:03

behaves. And so the

18:05

Chinese, the basic Chinese

18:07

idea of the universe

18:10

is really that it's

18:12

an organism. And as

18:14

we shall see when

18:17

we get on to Joanza,

18:19

who is the sort

18:21

of elaborator of

18:23

Laoza, he sees

18:26

everything operating operating

18:30

so that nowhere can you find

18:33

the controlling center. There isn't

18:35

any. The world is a system of

18:37

interrelated components, none

18:40

of which can survive without

18:42

each other. Just as in the

18:44

case of bees and flowers, you

18:46

will never find bees around

18:48

in a place where there

18:50

aren't flowers, and you will

18:53

never find flowers around in

18:55

a place where there aren't

18:57

bees, or insects that do

18:59

the equivalent job. And what

19:01

that tells us secretly is

19:03

that although bees and flowers

19:06

look different from each other,

19:08

they're inseparable. They, to use

19:10

a very important Taoist expression,

19:13

they arise mutually. This is

19:15

one of the great phrases

19:18

from the second chapter of

19:20

Lauser's book, where he says,

19:23

this character means to have

19:25

or to be. And

19:30

this next one

19:32

is a very

19:34

important character in

19:36

Taoist philosophy. It

19:39

means no, negative, woo

19:41

in Chinese, not to

19:43

be. And then this

19:46

curious expression for

19:48

which we don't

19:50

have a really

19:53

good corresponding idea

19:55

in traditional Western

19:57

thought So,

20:02

to be and not

20:04

to be mutually arise.

20:07

This character is based

20:09

on the picture of

20:11

a plant, something that

20:14

grows out of the

20:16

ground. So, you could

20:18

say positive and negative,

20:20

to be and not

20:23

to be, yes and

20:25

no, light and dark,

20:27

arise mutually, come into

20:29

being. effect, it's not

20:32

that relationship at all.

20:34

It's like the egg

20:36

and the hen. So

20:39

as the bees and

20:41

the flowers coexist in

20:43

the same way as

20:45

high and low, back

20:48

and front, long and

20:50

short, loud and soft.

20:52

All those experiences are

20:54

experientiable only in terms

20:57

of their polar experience.

21:00

So the Chinese idea

21:02

of nature is that

21:05

all the various species

21:07

arise mutually because they

21:09

interdependent. And this total

21:12

system of interdependence is

21:14

the Tao. It involves

21:16

certain other things that

21:19

go along with Tao,

21:21

but this is this

21:23

mutual arising is the

21:26

key idea. To the

21:28

whole thing. And

21:31

if you want to

21:33

understand Chinese and oriental

21:36

thought in general, it

21:39

is the most important

21:41

thing to grasp. Because

21:44

you see, we think

21:47

so much in terms

21:49

of cause and effect.

21:52

We think of the

21:55

universe today in Aristotelian

21:57

and Newtonian. ways.

22:03

And in that

22:05

philosophy, the

22:08

world is

22:10

all separated. It's

22:13

like a huge amalgamation of

22:16

billiard balls. And

22:18

they don't move until struck by

22:20

another or by a queue. And

22:24

so everything is going tock, tock,

22:26

tock, tock, tock, tock, tock, tock, all

22:28

over the place. One

22:30

thing starting off another in a mechanical

22:32

way. But

22:35

of course from the standpoint of century

22:37

science, we know perfectly well now that that's

22:39

not the way it works. We

22:42

know enough about relationships

22:44

to see that that

22:46

mechanical model which Newton

22:48

devised was all right for

22:50

certain purposes. But

22:53

it breaks down

22:55

now because we understand

22:57

relativity. And

23:01

we see how

23:03

things go together in a

23:05

kind of connected net rather

23:07

than in a chain of

23:10

billiard balls banging each other

23:12

around. So,

23:18

in the philosophy of

23:20

the Dao, it

23:23

is said, it's always being

23:25

said, this is... you

23:29

read this in every art book about

23:31

Chinese art, that

23:33

in Chinese painting, man

23:35

is always seen as

23:37

in nature rather than

23:39

dominating it. You

23:41

get a painting entitled

23:43

Poet Drinking by

23:45

Moonlight. And you

23:47

see a great landscape. And after

23:50

some search for the magnifying

23:52

glass, at last you see the

23:54

poet stuck away in a

23:56

corner somewhere drinking wine. Whereas

24:00

Because if we painted the subject poet drinking

24:02

by moonlight, the poet would be the

24:04

most obvious thing in a picture. There he

24:06

would be dominating the whole thing, the

24:08

landscape of somewhere behind him. But

24:10

all the Chinese painters put,

24:12

man, I mean, the painters

24:14

of the great classical tradition,

24:16

there are Chinese painters who

24:19

specialize in family portraits and

24:21

do these very formal paintings

24:23

of someone's ancestor sitting on

24:25

a throne. It's quite a

24:27

different category, but the Taoist

24:30

inspired painters, the

24:32

Zen inspired painters, have

24:34

this view of man as an

24:36

integral part of nature, something

24:39

in it just as everything else

24:41

is in it, flowers and birds,

24:44

and not their scent into this

24:46

world commissioned by some sort of

24:48

supernatural being to come into this

24:51

world and farm it and dominate

24:53

it. So

24:57

then, the

24:59

whole conception of

25:02

nature is as a

25:04

self -regulating, self

25:06

-governing, indeed democratic organism,

25:09

but it has

25:11

a totality. It all goes

25:13

together, and this totality is the

25:15

Tao. So

25:18

then we move to a

25:20

second term that is extremely important.

25:27

The expression, Ziran,

25:30

is the term

25:32

that we translate nature

25:35

when we translate

25:37

Chinese. But this term

25:39

expresses this whole

25:41

point of view. It

25:44

doesn't say nature,

25:46

natura, which means,

25:48

in a way, class of

25:50

things. It means,

25:52

literally, self -so.

25:57

What is so of itself? happens

26:00

of itself and

26:02

thus spontaneity.

26:05

And in the Tao

26:07

de Jing early on,

26:09

Lauser says, the Tao's

26:11

method is to be so of

26:14

itself. Now we

26:16

might translate that

26:18

automatic. Were it not

26:20

that the word

26:22

automatic has a

26:24

mechanical flavor. Ziran,

26:31

as this is called,

26:33

or Shizan in Japanese,

26:35

means spontaneous, yes. It

26:37

happens as your heart beats.

26:39

You don't do anything about

26:41

it. You don't force your

26:43

heart to beat. You don't make

26:46

it beat. It does it by

26:48

itself. Now figure a world in

26:50

which everything happens by itself.

26:52

It doesn't have to

26:55

be controlled. It's allowed.

26:58

The, whereas, you might

27:00

say, the idea of

27:02

God involves the control

27:05

of everything going on. The

27:07

idea of the Tao is

27:09

the ruler who abdicates and

27:11

lets all the people, trusts

27:14

all the people, to conduct

27:17

their own affairs. To

27:19

let it all happen. So,

27:21

this doesn't mean, you see

27:23

that there isn't a unified

27:25

organism. and everything is in

27:28

chaos. It means that the

27:30

more liberty you give, the

27:33

more love you give, the

27:35

more you allow things in

27:37

yourself and in your surroundings

27:39

to take place, the

27:42

more order you will have. It

27:44

is believed generally in India

27:46

that when a person sets

27:48

out on the way of

27:50

liberation, his first

27:53

problem is to become

27:55

free from his past.

27:57

Colma. The

28:00

popular theory of karma,

28:02

the word that literally

28:04

means action or doing

28:06

in Sanskrit, so that

28:08

when we say that

28:10

something that happens to

28:12

you is your karma. It's

28:15

like saying in English,

28:17

it's your own doing. But

28:19

in popular Indian belief,

28:22

karma is a sort of

28:24

built-in moral law or a

28:27

law of retribution. Such

28:29

that all the bad things you

28:31

do, and all the good

28:34

things you do, have consequences

28:36

which you have to inherit.

28:38

And so long as karmic

28:40

energy remains stored

28:42

up, you have to work it out.

28:44

And what the sage endeavors to

28:46

do is a kind of

28:49

action which in Sanskrit is

28:51

called Nishkama Karama. Nishkama

28:54

means without passion

28:56

or without attachment, Karama

28:58

action. And so,

29:00

whether he, whatever action

29:03

he does, he renounces the

29:05

fruits of the action, so

29:07

that he acts in a way

29:09

that doesn't generate future

29:12

calmer, because future calmer

29:15

continues you in the wheel

29:17

of becoming Song-Sara, the

29:19

round, and keeps you

29:22

being reincarnated. Now then, in

29:24

that case, when the time comes

29:26

that you start... to

29:29

get out of the chain of

29:31

karma. All the creditors

29:33

that you have start

29:36

presenting themselves for payment.

29:38

In other words, a

29:40

person who begins, say,

29:42

to study yoga, this

29:45

felt that he will

29:47

suddenly get sick or

29:49

that his children will

29:51

die or that he

29:53

loses money or all

29:55

sorts of catastrophes will

29:57

occur. The economic debt.

30:00

is being cleared up. And

30:02

there's no hurry to

30:04

be cleared up if you're

30:06

just living along like anybody,

30:09

but if you embark on

30:11

the spiritual life

30:13

a certain hurry occurs. And

30:16

therefore, since this is

30:18

known, it's rather discouraging

30:20

to start these things. The

30:22

Christian way of saying the same

30:25

thing is that if you plan

30:27

to be... to change your life,

30:29

shall we say, to turn over

30:31

a new leaf. You mustn't let

30:33

the devil know, because he will

30:35

oppose you with all his might

30:37

if he suddenly discovers that you're

30:39

going to escape from his power.

30:42

So, for example, if you have

30:44

a bad habit, say you drink

30:46

too much, and you make a

30:48

New Year's resolution that during this

30:50

coming year, you'll stop drinking. That's

30:53

a very, very dangerous thing to

30:55

do. Because the devil will

30:58

immediately know about it. And what

31:00

will happen will be this. He

31:02

will confront you with the prospect

31:04

of 365 drinkless days. And that

31:06

will be awful, you know, just

31:08

overwhelming. And you won't be able

31:10

to make much more than three

31:12

days on the wagon. So in

31:14

that case you compromise with the

31:16

devil and say, just today I'm

31:18

not going to drink, you see,

31:20

but tomorrow may be, you know,

31:22

we'll go back. Then when

31:25

tomorrow comes you say oh just

31:27

another day. Let's try out. That's

31:29

all and the next day you

31:31

say oh one more day won't

31:34

make much much difference So you

31:36

only do it for the moment

31:38

and you don't let the devil

31:40

know that you have a secret

31:42

intention of going on day after

31:45

day after day after day But

31:47

of course there's something

31:49

still better than that And

31:52

that is not to let the

31:55

devil know anything. That means, of

31:57

course, not to let yourself know.

32:00

One of the many meanings

32:03

of that saying let not

32:05

your left hand know what

32:07

your right hand do it

32:09

is just this and that

32:11

was why in Zen discipline

32:13

Great deal of it

32:15

centers around acting without

32:18

premeditation As those

32:20

of you know who read

32:22

Herrigal's book Zen in the

32:24

art of archery it was

32:27

necessary to release the bowstring

32:29

without first saying now. There's

32:32

a wonderful story

32:34

who may also have read

32:36

by a German writer von

32:39

Cleist about a boxing match

32:41

with a bear. The man can

32:43

never defeat this bear

32:45

because the bear always

32:47

knows his plans in

32:49

advance and is ready to

32:52

deal with any situation. The

32:55

only way to get through to

32:57

the bear would be to hit

32:59

the bear without having first intended

33:02

to do so. That would catch him.

33:04

And so this is one of the

33:07

great, great problems in the

33:09

spiritual life, or whatever

33:11

you want to call it, is

33:13

to be able to have

33:16

intention and act simultaneous. By

33:18

this means you escape karma

33:20

and you escape the devil.

33:26

So, you might say

33:28

that the Taoist is

33:31

exemplary in this

33:33

respect. That this

33:35

is getting free from

33:38

karma without making

33:41

any previous announcement.

33:44

Of simply,

33:46

supposing we have

33:48

a train and we

33:51

want to unload the

33:53

train of its... freight

33:55

cars. You can go to

33:58

the back end and you can

34:00

unload them one by one and

34:02

shunting them into the siding.

34:05

But the simplest of all

34:07

ways of unloading is to

34:09

uncouple between the engine and

34:12

the first car and that

34:14

gets rid of the whole bunch

34:16

at once. And it is in

34:18

that sort of way, you see, that

34:20

the Taoist gets rid of karma

34:23

without challenging it. And

34:25

so it has the reputation, you

34:27

see. of being the easy way.

34:29

There are all kinds of

34:32

yogas and ways for people

34:34

who want to be difficult.

34:37

And one of the great

34:39

gambits of a man like Gurjev

34:41

was to make it all

34:43

seem as difficult as

34:46

possible because that challenged

34:49

the vanity of his

34:51

students. If some teacher, some

34:53

guru says really this

34:55

isn't difficult at all.

34:58

perfectly easy. Some people

35:00

will say, oh, he's not really

35:02

the real thing. We

35:05

want something tough and

35:07

difficult and like when

35:09

we see somebody starts

35:11

out giving you a

35:13

discipline that's very, very

35:15

weird and rigid. People

35:18

think now there is

35:20

the thing. That man

35:22

means business. See? And

35:24

so they flatter themselves.

35:26

by going to such

35:29

a guy that they

35:31

are serious students, whereas

35:33

the other people are

35:35

only dabblers and so on.

35:38

All right, if you have

35:40

to do it that way,

35:43

that's the way you have

35:45

to do it. But the

35:47

Taoist is the kind

35:50

of person who shows

35:52

you the shortcut. and

35:54

shows you how to do it

35:57

by intelligence rather than

35:59

effort. That's because that's what it

36:01

is. Taoism

36:05

is in that sense what everybody

36:07

is looking for. The

36:09

easy way in, the short cut. Using

36:14

cleverness instead

36:16

of muscle. So

36:18

the question naturally arises,

36:20

isn't it cheating? When

36:24

in any game

36:27

somebody really starts using his intelligence.

36:29

He will very likely be accused

36:31

of cheating. And

36:33

to draw the line between skill and

36:35

cheating is a very difficult thing to

36:37

do. See,

36:40

the inferior intelligence will

36:42

always accuse a superior intelligence

36:44

of cheating. That's

36:47

its way of saving face. You

36:49

beat me by means that weren't

36:51

fair. We

36:53

were originally having a contest to find out

36:55

who had the strongest muscles. And

36:58

you know we were pushing against it like this,

37:00

this, this, this. And

37:02

this would prove who had the strongest

37:04

muscles. But then you introduce some gimmick

37:06

into it, some judo trick or something

37:08

like that. And you're not playing fair. So

37:14

in the whole

37:16

domain of ways

37:18

of liberation there

37:22

are roots for the

37:24

stupid people and roots for

37:26

the intelligent people. And

37:28

the latter are faster.

37:31

This was perfectly clearly explained

37:33

by Hoi Neng, the

37:35

sixth patriarch of Zen in

37:37

China, in his sutra

37:39

where he says the difference between the

37:42

gradual school and the sudden school

37:44

is they both arrive at the same

37:46

point. But the gradual is for

37:48

slow -witted people and the sudden is

37:50

for fast -witted people. Can

37:54

you, in other words,

37:56

find a way that

37:59

sees into... own nature

38:01

that sees into

38:03

the Tao immediately.

38:05

And at the

38:07

end of this

38:09

morning's talk I

38:11

pointed out to

38:13

you the immediate

38:15

way. The way

38:17

through now. When

38:19

you know that

38:21

this moment is

38:23

the Tao and

38:25

this moment... is

38:29

by its considered

38:32

by itself without

38:34

past and without

38:37

future eternal neither

38:40

coming into being

38:42

or going out

38:45

of being there

38:47

there is nirvana

38:49

and there is a whole

38:52

Chinese philosophy

38:54

of time based on

38:56

this It hasn't to

38:59

my knowledge been very

39:01

much discussed by Taoist

39:03

writers, it's been more

39:06

discussed by Buddhist writers,

39:08

but it's all based on

39:10

the same thing. Dogan, the

39:12

great 13th century Japanese

39:15

Zen Buddhist, studied in

39:17

China, and he wrote

39:19

a book called Shobo

39:21

Genzo. Erosi recently

39:24

said to me in Japan.

39:27

That's a terrible

39:29

book because it

39:32

tells you everything

39:34

It gives the

39:36

whole secret away

39:38

But in the

39:40

course of this book

39:43

he says You don't

39:45

there is no such

39:47

thing as a progression

39:50

in time the spring

39:53

does not become

39:55

the summer? There

39:58

is first spring. and

40:00

then there is summer. So

40:06

in the same

40:08

way you now

40:11

do not become you

40:13

later. This

40:15

is T .S. Eliot's idea in

40:17

Four Quartets where he says

40:19

that the person who has

40:21

settled down in the train

40:24

to read the newspaper

40:26

is not the same person

40:28

who stepped onto the train

40:30

from the platform and therefore

40:32

also you who sit here are not the

40:34

same people who came in at the

40:36

door. These

40:39

states are separate each in its

40:41

own place. There was the

40:44

coming in at the door person

40:46

but there is actually only the

40:48

here and now sitting

40:50

person and the person sitting

40:52

here and now

40:54

is not the person

40:57

who will die

40:59

because we

41:03

are all a

41:05

constant flux

41:07

and the continuity of

41:10

the person from past

41:12

through present to

41:14

future is as illusory

41:16

in its own

41:19

way as the upward

41:21

movement of the red lines

41:23

on a revolving barber pole. You

41:27

know it goes round and round and

41:29

round and the whole thing seems to

41:32

be going up or going down whichever

41:34

the case may be but actually nothing

41:36

is going up or down. So when

41:38

you throw a pebble into the pond

41:40

and you make a concentric rings of

41:42

waves there is an illusion that the

41:45

water is flowing outwards and no water

41:47

is flowing outwards at all. Water

41:51

is only going up and

41:53

down. What appears to move

41:55

outward is the wave not the

41:57

water. So

42:01

this kind of

42:03

philosophical argument says

42:06

that our seeming

42:08

to go along in a

42:11

course of time doesn't

42:13

really happen. The

42:15

Buddhists say

42:18

suffering exists but

42:20

no one who suffers.

42:23

Deeds exist but no

42:25

doers are found. a

42:29

path there is but

42:32

no one who follows

42:34

it and Nirvana is

42:37

but no one who

42:39

attains it. So in

42:41

this way they

42:44

look upon the

42:46

continuity of life as

42:48

the same sort of

42:51

illusion that is

42:53

produced when you

42:55

take a cigarette

42:57

and in the

42:59

dark whorlett and

43:01

the illusion of

43:03

a circle is

43:05

created, whereas

43:07

there is only the

43:10

one point of fire.

43:12

The argument then is,

43:14

so long as you're

43:16

in the present, there

43:19

aren't any problems.

43:22

The problems exist

43:24

only when you allow...

43:27

presence to amalgamate. There's

43:29

a way of putting

43:32

this in Chinese, which

43:35

is rather interesting, they

43:37

have a very interesting

43:40

sign, this, it's pronounced

43:42

Nian, and Japanese Nen.

43:45

And the top part

43:47

of the character means

43:50

now, and the bottom

43:52

part means the mind

43:54

heart, the shin. And

43:57

so this is

43:59

as it were, an

44:02

instant of thought. In

44:04

Sanskrit, they use

44:06

it, they use

44:09

this character as

44:11

the equivalent for

44:13

the Sanskrit word

44:15

shana. Then if you

44:17

put, if you double

44:19

this character, put

44:22

it twice, or three

44:24

times, and I'll write

44:26

the Chinese fiddito. Nyan

44:28

Nyan Nyan, means thought

44:30

after thought after thought.

44:33

Now the Zen Master

44:35

Joshu was once asked, what

44:37

is the mind of a child?

44:39

And he said a ball in

44:41

a mountain stream. What do you

44:44

mean by a ball in a mountain

44:46

stream? What do you mean by

44:48

a ball in a mountain stream?

44:51

He said thought after thought after

44:53

thought after thought with no block

44:56

with no block with no block.

45:01

A really virtuous person

45:03

doesn't show his virtue.

45:05

He is like, well there's

45:08

a poem in Chinese

45:10

which says, entering the

45:12

forest he doesn't disturb

45:14

a blade of grass,

45:17

entering the water he

45:19

doesn't make a ripple.

45:21

He looks very ordinary.

45:23

And so his virtue can't

45:26

be detected. He doesn't

45:28

stink of virtue. So,

45:33

de, then, is the

45:35

virtue of the great

45:37

artist, say, or

45:40

craftsman, who creates

45:42

marvelous works of

45:44

art, but always

45:47

as if he was making

45:49

no effort. And so

45:51

we say of great

45:53

art, that it's artless,

45:56

that it seems

45:58

to come now...

46:00

naturally, that he does it

46:02

as if he were falling

46:05

off a log. Now of

46:07

course we know that it

46:09

isn't that simple. So

46:11

what everybody wants

46:13

to know then

46:16

is how to acquire

46:18

that great naturalness in

46:21

everything. So that we

46:23

in our human lives

46:26

manifest the dull Tao

46:30

manifested through man

46:32

is de. How

46:35

do you do

46:37

it? So the

46:39

transitional word which

46:41

shows the way

46:44

from to realize

46:46

de in one's

46:48

life. This is

46:50

pronounced, this one

46:52

is Wu. This

46:54

one is Wei.

46:57

Way means to act,

46:59

to act, to strain,

47:02

to strive, or

47:04

to interfere. And

47:06

so the Taoist manner

47:09

of life is woo-way.

47:11

Don't force it. Always

47:14

go with the stream.

47:16

You may need to

47:19

use a rudder, but

47:21

don't ever go against

47:24

the stream. If you

47:26

are swimming and you

47:29

are caught in a

47:31

very strong current, you

47:33

will be lost if

47:36

you try to swim

47:38

against it. You must

47:41

swim with it and

47:43

edge to the side.

47:45

That's Wu Wei. This

47:47

has been very well

47:50

understood. even

47:53

by the samurai in

47:56

Japan, who when they

47:58

became very great, real...

48:00

masters of swordsmanship, always

48:02

found out and

48:04

belonged to the

48:07

no-sword school. Because the

48:09

real master of the

48:11

sword never uses one.

48:14

There is a story that

48:16

there were in Japan in

48:18

ancient times two master

48:21

swordssmiths. And there

48:23

was a great debate

48:26

as to which of them

48:28

was the better. So

48:31

some soldiers took a

48:33

sword made by each master

48:36

and decided to test them

48:38

out. They first took a

48:40

sword made by the man

48:42

who in general opinion

48:45

was perhaps a

48:47

little inferior. And they

48:49

went to a stream and

48:51

they dipped the sword in

48:54

the stream with the edge

48:56

of the blade facing upstream.

48:58

they dropped a piece of

49:00

paper on the stream and

49:02

it floated towards the sword

49:04

and as it floated the

49:06

sword simply divided it into

49:08

the two pieces of paper

49:10

joined together on the other

49:12

side and went on down the

49:14

stream. They then took the

49:16

blade of the man reputed

49:18

perhaps to be the greatest

49:21

master and thought well it'd

49:23

be pretty difficult to improve

49:25

on that but we'll try it

49:27

anyway anyway. So they

49:29

gave the same test. But

49:32

as the piece of paper

49:34

approached the sword, it moved

49:36

over to one side, skirted

49:39

it all together and went

49:41

on. So the true master

49:44

will never have to be

49:46

in a fight. And for

49:48

that reason, IKEDO, as

49:51

a athletic technique, is

49:53

learning how to

49:55

be unattacable. is

49:57

to always avoid the fight.

50:02

And so, however hard people

50:04

strike at you, they will

50:06

always be hitting the air. That's

50:08

duh, you see, that's magical power.

50:11

But it all comes about

50:13

through not using effort, not

50:15

straining at anything, never strain.

50:18

Like you never force a

50:20

key in a lock, you'll

50:22

just bend the key. You

50:24

jiggle and jiggle and jiggle

50:27

until it turns smoothly.

50:29

Or put oil on it, or

50:31

something. but never force

50:33

it. Same way, when you use your

50:35

eyes, don't stare at anything

50:38

in order to see it

50:40

clearly, because you'll just tie

50:42

your eyes and make the image

50:44

fuzzy. If you want to see

50:47

the time on a distant clock,

50:49

you close your eyes. You

50:51

imagine black and relax your

50:53

eyes. Then look at the

50:55

clock, lazily. And you will

50:57

see that the detail is

50:59

clearer. And

51:04

so now there's another

51:06

story with which I

51:09

will exemplify this. Later

51:11

than loud, sir, there

51:13

was another Taoist sage

51:16

called Lietza. And he

51:18

had the reputation of

51:20

being able to ride on

51:22

the wind. Of course, that's

51:25

metaphorical. And so

51:27

when Suzuki was asked

51:29

what it's like to

51:31

have... the experience of

51:33

Satore or enlightenment. He

51:35

once said it is

51:37

like ordinary everyday experience

51:40

except it's about two inches

51:42

off the ground. Where you don't

51:44

feel burdened by your own body.

51:46

Where you don't feel you were

51:48

something that you have to lug

51:50

around and hold a club over

51:52

and generally boss. So the sense

51:55

of lightness. That's the meaning of

51:57

Lietza being able to walk on

51:59

the air. But he

52:01

told the story of how

52:03

he managed to do it.

52:06

He said he went to

52:08

a great guru, and this

52:10

guru paid no attention to

52:12

him. So he just sat

52:15

outside the door of his

52:17

hut, and a year went

52:19

by, and still this man

52:22

paid no attention to him.

52:24

So Lydza went away, discussed

52:26

it. But

52:28

then he thought it over

52:31

a bit and realized this

52:33

man had a terrific reputation

52:35

and that if perhaps he

52:37

had been a little bit

52:39

more patient He would have

52:42

had some teaching So he

52:44

went back and the great

52:46

sage looked at him and

52:48

said why this ceaseless coming

52:51

and going? so he sat

52:53

down again at the entrance

52:55

of the heart and for

52:57

a further year attempted to

52:59

control his mind in such

53:02

a way as never to

53:04

think of profit or loss

53:06

or advantage or disadvantage. And

53:08

then at the end of

53:11

that year, the teacher looked

53:13

at him. For another year,

53:15

he practiced. And at the

53:17

end of that, the teacher

53:19

invited him to come in

53:22

the heart and sit on

53:24

the mat. Then

53:26

for the next year, however,

53:29

he did something quite different

53:31

and he says this I

53:33

Let my eyes see whatever

53:35

they wanted to look at

53:38

I Let my ears hear

53:40

whatever they wanted to hear

53:42

I let my mouth say

53:44

whatever it wanted to say

53:47

and I let my mind

53:49

think whatever it wanted to

53:51

think and at the end

53:53

of that year I didn't

53:57

know what was subject and

53:59

what was object.

54:04

I didn't take any account

54:06

of time I was

54:08

riding on the wind but

54:10

I didn't really know

54:13

whether the wind was riding

54:15

on me or I

54:17

was riding on the wind

54:19

and this was when

54:22

he got to float you

54:24

see he allowed democracy

54:26

to prevail he said to

54:28

his eyes I'm not going

54:30

to try and control you

54:32

you know better how to

54:34

see than I do to

54:36

his ears I'm not going

54:39

to force you to listen

54:41

to anything you know how

54:43

to hear better than I

54:45

can direct you and so

54:47

on for everything he trusted

54:49

his own brain he trusted

54:51

his own organism this is

54:53

Wu Wei so in meditate

54:55

like the choir was told

54:57

not to try to sing

54:59

don't force it when you

55:01

meditate let your lungs

55:03

breathe the way they

55:06

want to breathe let

55:08

your mind think anything

55:10

it wants to think

55:12

about don't try to

55:15

repress thoughts let your

55:17

eyes see whatever they're

55:19

looking at and let

55:22

your ears your eardrums

55:24

vibrate to any oscillations

55:26

there may be in

55:28

the air let go

55:30

you think that's very risky

55:33

it isn't it really

55:35

isn't it's like a ship

55:37

in a typhoon they

55:39

always shut the engines off

55:41

and drift because if

55:43

the propellers are going and

55:45

the tail end of

55:47

the ship is thrown up

55:49

so as to be

55:51

above the water level the

55:53

whole ship will vibrate

55:55

and be shaken to pieces

55:57

by those revolving propellers So

56:02

in a big storm, and

56:04

life is a big storm

56:06

all the time, you let

56:08

go and you become like

56:10

a cork on the water

56:12

or a ping pong ball

56:14

in a mountain

56:16

stream. That's what's

56:19

called purposelessness in

56:21

Taoism, which is a

56:24

form of Wu Wei.

56:26

And a Taoist text

56:28

says, when purpose has

56:30

been used... to achieve

56:32

purposelessness. The point has

56:34

been grasped. So it's the

56:36

same problem we have in

56:39

India, you know there's a

56:41

superstition, that if you think

56:44

of a monkey while you're

56:46

taking medicine, the medicine won't

56:49

work. So you are in

56:51

the predicament of trying not

56:53

to think of the monkey

56:56

while taking medicine. And

57:00

that happens to

57:02

us whenever we

57:04

try to be

57:06

natural. Everybody can

57:08

see it's forced, it's

57:10

faked. And so you

57:13

think then, how can

57:15

I be genuinely natural?

57:18

How can I really

57:20

natural? How can I

57:23

really flow with the

57:25

course of nature? How

57:29

can I let my mind

57:32

think whatever it wants to

57:34

think? Because the moment I

57:36

start doing that, I realize

57:39

I'm doing it with an

57:41

ulterior motive. I'm trying

57:43

to meditate. I'm trying

57:45

to grow spiritually. And that

57:47

ruins the whole thing. Well,

57:49

when you've tried for a

57:52

long time, to get the

57:54

right attitude. and you'll find

57:56

that all the attitudes you

57:58

get are phony ones. Then

58:01

you come to the realization

58:03

there's nothing you can do

58:05

about it. It really doesn't

58:08

make any difference and Again

58:10

the principle that I've emphasized

58:12

all along you give up

58:14

and in so doing Gain

58:17

the strength and energy that

58:19

you were looking for You

58:21

see it's like trying to

58:23

live in the present Gujef

58:27

used to set his students

58:30

the exercise he called self-remembering.

58:32

That is, constantly, all day

58:34

long, be completely aware of

58:36

what you're doing. Have your

58:38

mind always on the immediate

58:40

moment. Oh, and it's tough,

58:42

tough, tough to do that.

58:44

You get distracted all the

58:46

time. Till one fine day

58:49

you realize, to your astonishment.

58:51

There is no way. at

58:53

all, of having your mind

58:55

anywhere else but in the

58:57

present moment. Because even when

58:59

you think about the past

59:01

or the future, you're doing

59:03

it now, aren't you? And

59:06

that results in a very

59:08

curious transformation of consciousness. You

59:10

feel that the present moment

59:12

is flowing along and carrying

59:14

you with it all the

59:16

time. Just like the flow

59:18

of the Tao. The flow

59:20

of the Tao is as

59:22

what we would call the

59:25

flow of the present. See?

59:27

And you're with it. There's

59:29

nowhere being anywhere else. The

59:31

Jung-Yung, the book called The

59:33

Unwabbling Pivot, says, the Tao

59:35

is that from which one

59:37

cannot deviate. That from which

59:39

one can deviate is not

59:41

the Tao. Or to put

59:44

it into the form of

59:46

a Zen story, the Master

59:48

Joshu said to Nansen, what

59:50

is the Tao? Nansen replied,

59:52

your everyday mind is the

59:54

Tao. Joshu asked, how do

59:56

you get into accord with

59:58

it? Nansen replied, when you

1:00:00

try to record you deviate.

1:00:03

So that's the principle

1:00:05

and this although we're

1:00:08

getting the paradox

1:00:10

you see this sounds

1:00:12

like a completely

1:00:14

laissez-faire spineless attitude

1:00:17

to life but it

1:00:19

is precisely Taoism which

1:00:21

underlies in common with

1:00:24

Buddhism, in conjunction with

1:00:26

Buddhism, it underlies the

1:00:29

greatest achievements of Chinese

1:00:32

art and culture. It underlies

1:00:34

judo. It underlies the

1:00:36

Zen arts of Japan,

1:00:38

calligraphy, architecture, gardens. It

1:00:41

is the form of Chinese

1:00:43

philosophy which in

1:00:45

subsequent years became most

1:00:47

interested in science and

1:00:49

in the study of

1:00:51

nature. The Confusions

1:00:53

never had any interest

1:00:56

in science because they

1:00:58

were bookish people. They were

1:01:00

all absorbed in texts. They

1:01:02

were essentially scholastics

1:01:05

and never opened the book

1:01:07

of nature. But the Taoists

1:01:09

were always observing natural

1:01:11

phenomena, how they worked. They

1:01:14

were interested above

1:01:16

all in manual skills

1:01:18

and using the Tao

1:01:20

to perfect manual skills.

1:01:25

and therefore these lazy

1:01:27

people achieved the

1:01:29

most interesting results because

1:01:31

they were like water

1:01:33

which is lazy and always

1:01:36

seeks the line of

1:01:38

least resistance. But that is

1:01:40

almost the same thing

1:01:43

as intelligence. You've

1:01:53

been listening to the second talk

1:01:55

in the podcast wisdom of the water

1:01:57

course. It is part of our new

1:02:00

series on Taoism, which is called

1:02:02

Tao for Now, Way Beyond Seeking.

1:02:04

And like all of our other

1:02:06

recordings, it's available on our website

1:02:09

at alanwats.org. And there you'll also

1:02:11

learn a lot about the background

1:02:13

and our organizational history and some

1:02:15

of the things that we're trying

1:02:18

to do today to keep the

1:02:20

works of alanwats alive and vibrant

1:02:22

in this world. This podcast was

1:02:24

produced in conjunction with the Be

1:02:26

Here Now network, and our theme

1:02:29

music is by Zakir Hussain, courtesy

1:02:31

of Moment Records. Thank you for

1:02:33

being with us today. This

1:02:54

show is sponsored by Better

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