0:00

B C Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:05

more. Growing up, Billy

0:07

Garvey was what you might

0:09

have called a bad kid.

0:11

But that would be careless

0:13

because if you paid attention,

0:16

you would see what he

0:18

really was, was a struggling

0:21

kid. My story is

0:23

essentially that I was brought up

0:25

by a single mom in one

0:28

of Australia's most disadvantaged communities. That

0:30

would be Frankston in Melbourne's

0:32

Southeast. She worked three jobs as a waitress.

0:34

She had her own mental health struggles. She

0:36

found it really hard with three boys. So

0:39

we often had the power cut off or

0:41

not have food in the house and things

0:43

like that. But she just worked a lot

0:45

to try and make up for that.

0:47

Against that backdrop, Billy says he

0:49

was a pretty angry teenager. he was

0:52

angry at the world. And I

0:54

was kind of frequently told that

0:56

I would never amount to anything.

0:58

I clashed with educators a lot.

1:01

I clashed with authority. So I

1:03

was doing a lot of risk-taking

1:05

behaviour that culminated in my school

1:07

saying you're out of here and

1:10

then none of the schools actually

1:12

in the area would take me

1:14

because of my reputation. So yeah,

1:16

like I said, what some people

1:18

might call a bad kid? At a certain

1:20

point, things changed for Billy. He

1:23

started working with kids at an

1:25

after-school care program, the same one

1:27

he used to attend, which funny

1:29

enough, he hated back in the

1:31

day. But that job let him down

1:34

a path nobody expected. And I worked

1:36

there for six years, and I

1:38

saw like some of the most

1:40

difficult or disadvantaged children, bad kids,

1:42

so to say, in that space.

1:44

And most people who did that

1:46

went on and became educators. But

1:48

he realized he couldn't do that.

1:50

He didn't have what it took to

1:52

be an educator. But he liked science,

1:55

so he thought, why not give medical

1:57

school a shot? And like everything in

1:59

my life. just snucky and I

2:01

got a mark just good enough to

2:03

sneak into every bit of my university

2:05

and things like that. And Billy

2:08

is now Dr. Billy Garvey,

2:10

a developmental pediatrician in Melbourne,

2:12

working with kids struggling with

2:14

behavioral issues just like he

2:16

did. I'm really lucky that I had

2:18

a couple of key people who were

2:20

like, you know, you can be whatever

2:23

you want to be. And that really

2:25

changed my story because I had just

2:27

a couple of protective relationships throughout my

2:29

life that really sheltered me. And so

2:32

that's the beautiful thing because I spend

2:34

more time in clinic trying to advocate

2:36

for that than I do writing scripts

2:39

for medications or giving kids diagnoses. Billy

2:41

has now distilled what he's learned

2:43

about children and their behavior issues

2:46

into a book called 10 things

2:48

I wish you knew about your

2:50

child's mental health. So, this is all

2:52

in the mind. I'm Sonna Cadar,

2:54

and if you listen last

2:57

week, you'll know we covered

2:59

what to do if you're

3:01

struggling to decide whether you

3:03

want to have a child

3:05

or not. This week, we're

3:08

covering what to do if

3:10

you have a child and

3:12

are struggling. From toddlers to

3:14

teenagers, we find out why

3:16

kids sometimes behave badly, quote-unquote,

3:19

and what it can

3:21

mean about their mental

3:23

health. All these years

3:25

later, Billy still remembers

3:28

the day his mother found

3:30

out he'd been kicked out

3:33

of school. His father was back

3:35

in his life at this point in

3:37

time and he had helped Billy get

3:39

into a new school. But his mother

3:41

didn't know this until one day. She

3:44

saw me catching a different bus to

3:46

school in year 11. She was not

3:48

happy. My mom was a really firm,

3:50

really interesting, like a feminist,

3:52

really independent, you know, really

3:54

bright. Neither of my parents

3:56

finished high school, but she

3:58

was kind of... really firm and

4:01

strict and I often see that

4:03

in clinic where parents are really

4:05

struggling with kids and their behavior

4:07

and they're trying to put more

4:09

pressure in and become more strict

4:11

when actually connection is what those

4:13

kids need and that you know she didn't

4:15

know any better. I've done 14 years in

4:17

full-time university in this space and I still

4:19

struggle with my own kids, you know, about

4:21

how you actually do this and how difficult

4:23

it can be at times. And so, you

4:25

know, I wish that I could go back

4:27

and help my mum, but it's just, it's

4:29

not something I can do, so I try

4:31

and meet those parents in clinic and actually

4:33

be helpful. So

4:36

you are, as we said, a

4:39

developmental pediatrician now, and you write

4:41

in the book that emotional difficulties

4:43

like explosive tantrums or anxiety or

4:45

aggression, that kind of thing. Emotional

4:48

difficulties are the number one reason

4:50

you see kids in your clinic.

4:52

which I found kind of surprising.

4:55

Is that the bread and butter

4:57

of what developmental pediatricians do? Yeah,

4:59

yeah, it really is. So we know

5:01

that kind of especially the cohort of

5:03

kids that I see up to 50%

5:05

of them will have emotional difficulties. That

5:07

doesn't always mean they have a mental

5:09

illness, but that a lot of parents

5:11

and professionals are really struggling with those

5:13

emotional or behavioral difficulties in kids. And

5:15

we kind of when we think about

5:17

looking at the evidence around this we

5:19

know that you know a third of

5:22

parents say that mental illness in kids

5:24

is best left alone and the majority

5:26

of parents would say they don't know

5:28

where to go for help. So it's

5:30

really worrying that there's actually evidence about

5:32

prevention, about how do we prevent emotional

5:34

difficulties, trauma, like you know all of

5:36

the mental illness that we see in

5:38

the community or how we respond to

5:41

it, but it's just really hard to

5:43

access that support. How is what you

5:45

do as a developmental pediatrician different to

5:47

what a child's psychiatrist might do? It's

5:49

a really good question. Child psychiatrists

5:51

are really important and I almost

5:53

did dual training in child psychiatry

5:55

but time on a six months

5:57

working on a child psych ward.

6:00

me off it because a lot of

6:02

those kids, like, you know, it's really,

6:04

really challenging and all those kids I

6:06

wish that I'd met them years and

6:08

years earlier and as a developmental pediatrician,

6:10

we meet a lot of kids earlier.

6:12

Kids with mental health in Australia, the

6:14

most likely medical specialist, they'll meet is

6:17

general practitioners and that's about 35% of

6:19

them. 24% of the kids with mental

6:21

illness in Australia will see a psychologist,

6:23

21% of them see a developmental pediatrician,

6:25

but only 7% of them see a

6:27

child psychiatrist. It's really hard to see

6:29

a child psychiatrist in this country. And

6:31

as a developmental pediatrician, we, in a

6:34

similar way to child psychiatrists, we think

6:36

holistically about kids from a developmental perspective,

6:38

so we don't say, is this autism

6:40

one nice? We think about what's going

6:42

on in this kid's life, what has

6:44

their experience been from even before they

6:46

were born. And then we also do

6:48

things about diagnosis and prescribing medications. But

6:51

actually, the bits that I love about

6:53

it is not those things. The bits

6:55

that I love about it is, what

6:57

are we actually going to do about

6:59

it? Because the label and the medication

7:01

usually doesn't help that much with those

7:03

things. It's the kid that's in front

7:06

of me and learning about. what they're

7:08

struggling with and then equipping all the

7:10

people around them in how to support

7:12

them. That's the really cool bit. And

7:14

you see these kids that like almost

7:16

everyone's given up hope and then you

7:18

see them turn. It's a beautiful thing

7:20

to be a part of. Okay, well

7:23

let's run through some of the specific

7:25

things that you write about in the

7:27

book, things that you wish people understood

7:29

about there. kids' mental health. Let's start

7:31

with number one. That attachment is where

7:33

your child's mental health starts. So we've

7:35

done episodes on attachment before. It's a

7:37

fascinating area. But I'm keen to hear

7:40

from you why you think this is

7:42

one of the key things that people

7:44

need to know about their kids' mental

7:46

health. Yeah, so the two biggest predictors

7:48

of your mental health will be your

7:50

temperament and your attachment. So temperament is

7:52

set. About 20 to 30% of kids

7:54

or adults have a sense. temperament, big

7:57

response to stuff like get overwhelmed easily,

7:59

all those things. I have a sensitive

8:01

temperament, I've always had one and I'll

8:03

always have one. It doesn't do me

8:05

to mental illness, it actually gives me

8:07

the opportunity to connect with people really

8:09

well. But that is set, your attachment

8:12

is not set. Your attachment is how

8:14

safe and secure you feel in the

8:16

world and how you feel loved and

8:18

deserving of that love. Most of that

8:20

is subconscious, like we don't think about

8:22

it much, but it's how much do

8:24

we trust relationships, you know, how much

8:26

do we value ourselves? All that comes

8:29

from that attachment. We can pick kids

8:31

in our unsettled babies clinic, for example,

8:33

you know, who might be struggling with

8:35

an attachment perspective because... they weren't able

8:37

to be with their parents when they

8:39

were born because of medical illness or

8:41

something like that or parental mental illness.

8:43

Like 20 to 30% of moms have

8:46

post-nail depression, that can make it really

8:48

hard. Also we see a lot of

8:50

kids through a child protection system where

8:52

they've had fracturing of attachments, you know,

8:54

five, six-year-olds that have been in 10-12

8:56

different homes in that time. And so

8:58

they have insecure attachment. They will either

9:00

like be really anxious about relationships and

9:03

really worried and that at a dysfunctional

9:05

level not struggle a little bit to

9:07

drop off but really anxious about all

9:09

of their relationships. or they'll be avoidant.

9:11

And I see both profiles. I saw

9:13

a gorgeous kid yesterday who has had

9:15

severe childhood trauma and the first time

9:18

she met me, she's hugging me and

9:20

over familiar with me and all those

9:22

things. And because she doesn't have that

9:24

and that's what happens to her. And

9:26

if we don't sort that out for

9:28

her, she'll struggle with that for the

9:30

rest of her life. So that's kind

9:32

of where it's really important. A lot

9:35

of people think our attachment kind of.

9:37

you know, it happens in the first

9:39

few years of life, but that's not

9:41

true. And I don't know about your

9:43

personal experience, Anna, but I've had periods

9:45

in my life where I've become quite

9:47

insecure about relationships because of a loss

9:49

of an attachment figure, such as, you

9:52

know, the death of my mom in

9:54

my 20s, that made it really hard.

9:56

and then we kind of just either

9:58

avoid relationships or we remain quite superficial

10:00

or we get anxious about losing other

10:02

ones. That's personally happened to me and

10:04

it happens to a lot of the

10:06

kids I see in clinic and it's

10:09

never, it's never too late. I meet

10:11

a lot of teens where they're 17,

10:13

18 and they don't trust anyone and

10:15

they just want to fight the world

10:17

like I did and often I try

10:19

and find key attachment figures for them

10:21

just as we would a little above.

10:24

Yeah, tell me about that. So when

10:26

you have like a five, six year

10:28

old who's got insecure or avoid an

10:30

attachment or a teenager. How do you

10:32

repair a child's attachment style when they're

10:34

still a child? So it's really just,

10:36

it's about relationships. So the kids will

10:38

test relationships, especially if they've had a

10:41

loss of them. And that's why a

10:43

lot of these kids are acting out

10:45

so much, because they think, well, this

10:47

person's going to lead me as well.

10:49

So I'll be violent and aggressive and

10:51

I'll challenge and threaten the relationship, because

10:53

I'd rather have some sense of control

10:55

than. try really hard and then in

10:58

six months time they're gone as well.

11:00

And so what we want to do

11:02

is think about how can we make

11:04

sure that no matter what happens that

11:06

kid feels like I'm here for them

11:08

and we have to the evidence would

11:10

show us that you really just need

11:12

a few key relationships like that in

11:15

your home and outside of your home,

11:17

two non-parental adults that take a genuine

11:19

interest in you is what the evidence

11:21

would say is necessary to protect mental

11:23

health but also to heal trauma from

11:25

mental illness. So how do we like

11:27

foster that? And it's really important. I

11:30

think a lot of people, when a

11:32

child is misbehaving or struggling, whether it's

11:34

like extreme violence or it's just having

11:36

a tantrum, for one of a better

11:38

word. They will withdraw support and they'll

11:40

at the worst withdraw love. But actually

11:42

that's when kids need it the most.

11:44

They need to go. It actually doesn't

11:47

matter what I do. This person is

11:49

here for me. And that's the most

11:51

important thing that we'll ever do for

11:53

kids is show them that we are

11:55

unconditionally there and we don't prove that

11:57

when they comply by saying you're such

11:59

a good boy, such a good girl,

12:01

we prove that when we're really struggling

12:04

with how they're behaving because they're not

12:06

listening to us or they're a different

12:08

kid to what we thought they were

12:10

and things like that, then have to

12:12

lean into them. And it's not about

12:14

being permissive and saying I'll let you

12:16

do whatever you want, it's about saying

12:18

I'm here and no matter what happens,

12:21

nothing will ever challenge that. And then

12:23

kids start to feel safe and secure

12:25

in the world just like you and

12:27

I do. So

12:31

this sort of ties into the second

12:34

thing you write that you wish people

12:36

knew about their kids' mental health, which

12:38

is that there is always a reason

12:40

behind child's behavioral issues. Talk to me

12:43

about that. What point should parents be

12:45

concerned about their kids' behaviour and think

12:47

it's worth discussing with a doctor? Yeah,

12:49

so I think when parents know their

12:52

kids and, you know, trusting your gut

12:54

is a really important thing. So I

12:56

think if you're like, I'm worried, that's

12:58

the time. that's the time to tap

13:00

like the maternal child health nurse. They're

13:03

phenomenal in the early years. The GP,

13:05

the early childhood educators, they do a

13:07

lot of work with them. They're really

13:09

important as well and say, hey I'm

13:11

a bit worried that you know Billy

13:14

is having a bit of a hard

13:16

time and he seems to be getting

13:18

distressed especially it wasn't like this a

13:20

month ago and now he's having a

13:22

lot of difficulties. How's it going here?

13:25

What do you think? And we know

13:27

for example like there like there are,

13:29

when we think of anxiety or typical

13:31

life course. aspects of that and like

13:33

the separation anxiety is really common in

13:36

toddlers they will often struggle to separate

13:38

from primary caregivers but in primary school

13:40

if they're still struggling with that it

13:42

can be a clinical diagnosis and the

13:44

average age of separation anxiety for example

13:46

in this country is seven. So seven-year-olds

13:49

that struggle to separate from a primary

13:51

caregiver because if anxious they are that

13:53

is a concern. Whereas over time, kids

13:55

that start kind of, for example, or

13:57

childcare, if they get better over time,

14:00

that's a really good sign. I think

14:02

any time a parent is struggling, they

14:04

should feel comfortable to seek out help

14:06

from professional because we know that lots

14:08

of people just go, no, it's because

14:11

I'm a bad parent and I need

14:13

to get, this is my responsibility, I

14:15

need to get better at it. But

14:17

that's not true. And so when you

14:19

say there's always a reason behind a

14:22

child's behavioral issues, you've talked about anxiety

14:24

and a couple of other things, what

14:26

are the most common reasons you see

14:28

behind behavioral issues? You had to guess.

14:30

Guess anxiety. Because a lot of manifestations

14:33

in the younger years of anxiety is

14:35

of anxiety. Is it a lot of

14:37

manifestations in the younger years of anxiety

14:39

is agitation, anger, aggression, outbursts. So unlikely

14:41

I don't have to guess. We can

14:44

do assessments to figure out what is

14:46

different. anxiety, it can be insecure attachments,

14:48

it can be fragile, self-esteem, it can

14:50

be like that there's something else going

14:52

on such as a learning difficulty or

14:54

maybe the child is neuro-divergent and where

14:57

not being sensitive enough to how they

14:59

experience the world from a sensory perspective.

15:01

And so that's the assessment process that

15:03

we go through. Sometimes it might be

15:05

ADHD that they have real difficulties with

15:08

impulse control or they can't follow instructions

15:10

because their working memory is poor. And

15:12

you know, what we're looking for is

15:14

how do we learn what this child's

15:16

strengths and vulnerabilities are from those perspectives?

15:19

And that's how the diagnosis helps me.

15:21

Every kid with ADHD is unique and

15:23

different. But the beautiful thing about those

15:25

kids is that they are very creative,

15:27

you know, but they really struggle in

15:30

worlds that ask them to sit still

15:32

for a long period of time or

15:34

give them a set of instructions in

15:36

a specific way. And a lot of

15:38

parents will say like, drives me crazy.

15:41

I tell him what to do. I

15:43

tell him to go get his stuff

15:45

and meet me in the car with

15:47

everything ready for school and I find

15:49

him doing something else. And I don't

15:52

know why he's not listening to me.

15:54

He's not intentionally doing that. means that

15:56

he can't hold multi-step instruction in his

15:58

head. off being told it verbally once.

16:00

And that's the cool bit. Once we

16:03

figure out it's that, we go awesome.

16:05

Right. Let's work on Nash. Let's build

16:07

skills in Nash. And let's make sure

16:09

that this kid also isn't constantly working

16:11

on something that they struggle with and

16:13

suck at initially. Let's make sure they

16:16

have success in the other things that

16:18

really matter to them that they're actually

16:20

good at. And that's how you develop

16:22

secure self-esteem. And that's often like the

16:24

sporting field for a sporting field for

16:27

a lot of kids. This

16:31

is All in the Mind on ABC

16:33

Radio National, I'm Sanna Khadar. Dr. Billy

16:36

Garvey is a developmental pediatrician, and he's

16:38

the author of the book, Ten Things,

16:40

I wish you knew, about your child's

16:42

mental health. So today, we're running through

16:44

some of those ten things. Okay, I

16:46

want to jump ahead to the seventh

16:48

thing you write about, which is respect.

16:51

And you're right that mothers will often

16:53

ask, how do I get my kids

16:55

to listen to me? And fathers will

16:57

often ask, how do I get my

16:59

kids to respect me? Why did you

17:01

include this topic in your list of

17:03

10 things? because I hear about it

17:06

so much like you know you know

17:08

over 20 years those are common things

17:10

that I get asked about you know

17:12

why don't they listen and why don't

17:14

they respect me and understanding that changes

17:16

developmentally through a kid's life like the

17:18

three four-year-olds can't kind of understand the

17:21

perspective of others especially when they're struggling

17:23

whereas five six-year-olds can start to learn

17:25

that and making sure that we don't

17:27

set kids up to fail. Understanding that

17:29

teenagers for example will become more important

17:31

than parents and caregivers and educators. So

17:34

that's a normal thing for them to

17:36

move away from that a bit, and

17:38

we should let them do that instead

17:40

of kind of trying to rein them

17:42

back in. The interesting thing is when

17:44

we think about any skill that we're

17:46

learning, especially around emotional development, we have

17:49

kind of multiple ways that we can.

17:51

do this, one of it is role

17:53

modeling it and saying like see how

17:55

I respect other people, that's because everyone

17:57

deserves that. And that's how I think

17:59

about them and I say thank you

18:01

for things and I make sure I'm

18:04

checking with people and you know all

18:06

of that stuff and not forcing the

18:08

child to do it but actually giving

18:10

them the option to learn why it

18:12

matters to you. So we don't. We

18:14

don't pick what kids believe in from

18:16

a moral or ethical perspective. We guide

18:19

them through it. You know, we don't

18:21

say you will be a good person.

18:23

You will be nice to people. We

18:25

say this is what I do. And

18:27

then even in our narratives and our

18:29

play, very early on, you know, when

18:31

we're reading a book, for example, instead

18:34

of just following this script, saying like,

18:36

how do you think that little boy's

18:38

feeling? Oh, he's happy. Why do you

18:40

think he's happy? Oh. And just sticking

18:42

with empathy for a second, keep in

18:44

mind it is learned in stages. You

18:47

know, little babies have empathy. Everyone thinks

18:49

that it develops years later. But everyone

18:51

who's looked after multiple babies know if

18:53

one of them cries, the others will

18:55

too. And they're not hungry, they're not

18:57

tired, they're not in pain, they don't

18:59

need to be changed, but they're just

19:02

picking that up from another bug. As

19:04

kids reach about 18 months old, they

19:06

gain something called egocentricetric empathy. We'll see

19:08

another kid get hurt and they get

19:10

distressed and they need help, you know,

19:12

they need support and they need the

19:14

cuddle and it's quite interesting because they're

19:17

picking up as distress and help-seeking. Then

19:19

interestingly they will go over to that

19:21

kid but be like this is what

19:23

I need when I'm struggling so here's

19:25

the Teddy or here's the hug or

19:27

whatever and they can't pick up that

19:29

the kids like actually don't want to

19:32

be hugged by you. I don't know

19:34

who you are or I don't feel

19:36

comfortable comfortable. Then, by late preschool and

19:38

early primary school years, they will start

19:40

to be able to conceptualize, this kid

19:42

might need something different than what I

19:44

do, and what's it like for Sana,

19:47

she's having a tough time, I wonder,

19:49

like what I would need might be

19:51

different to what she needs. And then,

19:53

by the middle primary years, the final

19:55

stages of empathy kick-in, where kids, if

19:57

they're developing typically, gain abstract... which is

20:00

like they can care about things without

20:02

them being in front of them and

20:04

that's why a lot of parents will

20:06

see that kids will become vegetarians and

20:08

things like that because they learn about

20:10

animals. In the book you write about

20:12

a 12 year old boy named Omar

20:15

who you worked with who was having

20:17

issues in this area of respect and

20:19

listening. Can you tell me about Omar

20:21

and why his mother brought him in

20:23

and what you did? He's a gorgeous

20:25

teenager who kind of was, I still

20:27

remember he was just so, he was

20:30

so confident and he was so funny

20:32

and he had like, he actually had

20:34

really secure self-esteem but... the challenge was

20:36

that he was quite kind of self-centered

20:38

and he was really stuck in that

20:40

more egocentric empathy over younger age and

20:42

because he had developmental trauma and things

20:45

like that so these were kind of

20:47

coping mechanisms where he was just like

20:49

I just need to look after myself

20:51

and that's what I'll do. He's not

20:53

really struggling like multiple kids, single parents,

20:55

you know, amazing. amazing woman who was

20:58

really struggling because of how to find

21:00

he was and he was starting to

21:02

flare with antisocial stuff and just didn't

21:04

really care about anyone else. And he

21:06

actually was really looked up to by

21:08

his younger siblings and even other people

21:10

in the community, but he didn't really

21:13

see that as a strength of his.

21:15

He saw like how tough and the

21:17

class clan and he play up and

21:19

he get in trouble and all those

21:21

things. And so what was about for

21:23

Omar was about changing that narrative and

21:25

giving him really gentle opportunities to see

21:28

where he could be helpful in relationships

21:30

and for him to feel good about

21:32

it. One strategy Dr. Garvey deployed was

21:34

to get Omar and his mother to

21:36

write down three things they each wanted

21:38

the other person to do or to

21:40

let them do. Three specific realistic things

21:43

that could happen at least once a

21:45

week. Omar chose more video games, time

21:47

with his friends, and sleeping in on

21:49

the weekends. His mom chose, Omar helping

21:51

to prepare dinner, doing his homework, and

21:53

spending time with the... little sister. Billy

21:55

then asked Omar's mother to explain why

21:58

she thought Omar had chosen the things

22:00

he chose. And it was really validating

22:02

for him because it was like non-judgmentally

22:04

which is really important anytime we're supporting

22:06

kids who need to make sure there's

22:08

no tiny bit of judgment because it'll

22:11

push them down. And so he was

22:13

really validated, but it was interesting because

22:15

then I asked him to do it

22:17

and he was kind of like, oh

22:19

she wants me to help out more.

22:21

Because it's hard, she has to do

22:23

lots, and you can see him kind

22:26

of understanding it, why you think she

22:28

wants you to be more involved with

22:30

your little sister. because my little sister

22:32

really looks up to me and really

22:34

gets a lot out of being, you

22:36

know, it's this beautiful realization that like

22:38

it wasn't this magic one thing that

22:41

we did, but over time getting to

22:43

know him and then helping him really

22:45

gently develop the skill of perspective taking

22:47

and what's it like to be someone

22:49

else and what's mom's experience like, what's

22:51

the little sister's experience like? And then

22:53

we kind of talked about the educators

22:56

that we're trying to help him and

22:58

him just battling them. and he does

23:00

he's got a great relationship now at

23:02

school he's got leadership roles like that

23:04

was another important bit for Omar was

23:06

that Instead of kind of always having

23:09

consequences for bad behavior at school, actually

23:11

the educators gave him a leadership role

23:13

and he really filled that because he

23:15

was so confident and then he was

23:17

actually this really protective factor for the

23:19

classroom in the playground and started looking

23:21

after other kids because it harnessed the

23:24

good stuff in him instead of kind

23:26

of him being the class clown that

23:28

was always messing up. He was he

23:30

became the person that kind of was

23:32

a leader and looked after other people,

23:34

including the younger kids at school. So

23:38

it sounds like all these strategies for

23:40

safeguarding one's child's mental health and like,

23:42

you know, managing behavioral stuff. It's all

23:44

long-term kind of slow-change stuff. There's obviously

23:46

no easy fix, but yeah, it's sounding

23:48

like it takes a lot of time.

23:50

It does, but I think the quick

23:52

fixes stuff can still be helpful, which

23:54

is just like, you know, prioritize the

23:56

relationship. I would say that multiple times

23:58

every single day. Connection over correction all

24:00

the time or relationship over rules. And

24:02

like there's so many parents out there

24:04

that just do not enjoy their kids.

24:06

Yeah, so can you tell me about

24:08

that? Because how do you know whether

24:10

prioritizing the relationship over rules is heading

24:13

into like permissive, no boundary parenting kind

24:15

of thing? Because I think that's the

24:17

fear for a lot of people. Totally.

24:19

But imagine if like your partner or

24:21

one of your friends that most of

24:23

the time you caught up with them,

24:25

they will like you need to treat

24:27

me better. you need to like listen

24:29

to me more, you need to be

24:31

more organized, you need to text me

24:33

back sooner, you need to not show

24:35

up place. You just stop hanging out

24:37

with them, wouldn't you? You just be

24:39

like, that sounds like a miserable way.

24:41

I'm actually, I'm busy. But we do

24:43

that to kids all the time. You

24:45

know, we just, especially the kids that

24:47

are struggling, 90% of the time they

24:49

hear from us is like to rain

24:51

them and have it go with them.

24:53

stop statching stuff. Like why don't you

24:55

listen to me? And it's just like,

24:57

oh my God, I feel like you're

24:59

talking about me. Can you tell him

25:01

going through some stuff? Oh, it's very

25:03

easy to say this. It's hard to

25:05

do it. I'm humbled every single day

25:07

about, you know, the advice that I

25:09

give and then I come home and

25:11

struggle to do it. But the point

25:13

is it's not about doing it perfectly,

25:15

but it's just that's where the money

25:17

is. That's where the money is. That's

25:19

where the money is. to telekit off

25:21

or try and get them to do

25:23

something differently if you actually don't have

25:25

the time and space to support them.

25:28

You know, and just go, cool, this

25:30

is, I can't actually, this is not

25:32

the time, this is the time for

25:34

them to just get in the car

25:36

because we're running late, but I've got

25:38

to make some time. for getting in

25:40

the car being something that we're good

25:42

at. Yeah, okay. And it won't be

25:44

because I'm shouting at you or I

25:46

say it louder or I say it

25:48

the fifth time. The kid goes, oh,

25:50

okay, yeah, cool. Oh, sorry, I'll get

25:52

in the car. You know, that's, that

25:54

never works, but yet we do it

25:56

all the time. Yeah, yeah. Where if

25:58

we say, hey, what's this kid actually

26:00

struggling with? And it's usually something like

26:02

emotional like emotional expression or emotional expression

26:04

or emotional expression. and I'm putting in

26:06

more pressure and tighter boundaries and saying

26:08

we have to go come on quick

26:10

and if I actually just gave them

26:12

the option to have an emotional expression

26:14

then they'll be fine or I give

26:16

them some sense of autonomy nots do

26:18

we get in the car or nots

26:20

but why don't you pick a toy

26:22

your favorite one that's going to come

26:24

with you in the car and if

26:26

that doesn't work then you go is

26:28

an emotional expression that they're struggling with.

26:30

I think so many times we roll

26:32

in and we're like this is what's

26:34

going to happen. but there's a little

26:36

human that's still learning how to be

26:38

in the world and we need to

26:40

go at their pace at some of

26:43

the time. Given how your childhood was

26:45

and you know you were kind of

26:47

going off the rails a little bit

26:49

but then came back, do you feel

26:51

like through working with the kids that

26:53

you work with? You're trying to kind

26:55

of heal something from your own past

26:57

or you know help kids that were

26:59

like you? Definitely. Definitely, yeah, I really

27:01

am and a lot of my colleagues

27:03

would say that too is that it's

27:05

healing doing this work. Part of it

27:07

is like I you know I feel

27:09

so much guilt and shame about the

27:11

way that I was and how I

27:13

made things harder for my mom and

27:15

that I'm not able to acknowledge that

27:17

or apologize for it or obviously go

27:19

back in time and be different and

27:21

actually support her and I think it's

27:23

probably seeing her struggle so much with

27:25

stuff is one of the reasons that

27:27

I went into this space because now

27:29

I'm highly trained in it and I'm

27:31

skilled in like parents or mental health

27:33

because I see it every day, parents

27:35

that are struggling with that. And yeah,

27:37

I'm totally looking for, you know, kids

27:39

that are like me in trying to,

27:41

you know, make sure that all of

27:43

the amazing educators and caregivers and everyone

27:45

out there in the community knows how

27:47

to catch them, how to spot flares

27:49

and how to bring them back. That's

27:51

why I do it. It's a selfish

27:53

thing. It seems like a selfless thing.

27:55

It's a selfish thing. I do it

27:58

because it helps heal my own trauma.

28:00

But a good kind of selfish, a

28:02

selfless selfishness. Yeah, hopefully, hopefully. Sometimes I

28:04

wonder, I'm like doing all this out

28:06

because you work and leaving my partner

28:08

to parent our kids on it. What

28:10

a hypocrite. This is really important that

28:12

you do this and then I'm off

28:14

on the TV or something doing it

28:16

and thinking, what a hypocrite. But hopefully

28:18

it's actually helping get stuff to people

28:20

sooner because that's the whole point of

28:22

it is like, it's such a long

28:24

way we should be sharing the evidence

28:26

and doing it more. That

28:30

is Dr. Billy Garvey, developmental pediatrician,

28:32

and author of the book, Ten

28:35

Things I Wish You Knew About

28:37

Your Child's Mental Health. That's it

28:40

for All in the Mind this

28:42

week. Thanks to producer Rose Kerr

28:44

and senior producer James Bullen and

28:47

sound engineer John Jacobs. I'm Sanna

28:49

Caddar. Thank you for listening. I'll

28:52

catch you next time. And

28:57

just one more thing before I go, for

28:59

real, I wanted to let you know that

29:01

All in the Mind is coming to Adelaide

29:04

on Wednesday the 5th of March for a

29:06

live show at Podfest, and I've got a

29:08

double pass to give away. So keep listening

29:10

for details on how to enter, but let

29:13

me first tell you a little bit about

29:15

the show. So the show is going to

29:17

be called The Magic of Memory, and it's

29:19

all about what you can do to train

29:22

your brain to remember better, recall faster, and

29:24

even reshape your memories. We've got an amazing

29:26

lineup of guests for you, including a memory

29:28

athlete. Yes, that's a thing. We've got a

29:30

memory researcher and a clinical neuropsychologist. We're going

29:33

to be putting our own memories to the

29:35

test and looking at the future of memory

29:37

as well. So I'll be at the Torrens

29:39

Parade Ground in Adelaide at 6.15 p. on

29:42

Wednesday the 5th of March, and I hope

29:44

I see you there. Now, I didn't forget

29:46

about that free double pass. If you want

29:48

to win, all you have to do is

29:51

first of all be an Adelaide on that

29:53

date or be able to get yourself there.

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And then also you need to email us

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on mind underscore. rn been listening to

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