0:00

ABC Listen, Podcasts.

0:02

Radio. News.

0:04

Music. and more. I

0:07

wanted to let you know that all

0:09

in the mind is coming to Adelaide

0:11

on Wednesday the 5th of March for

0:13

a live show at Podvest. The show

0:15

is going to be called The Magic

0:18

of Memory, and it's all about what

0:20

you can do to train your brain

0:22

to remember better, recall faster, and even

0:24

reshape your memories. We've got an amazing

0:26

lineup of guests for you, including a

0:28

memory athlete. Yes, that's a thing. We've

0:30

got a memory researcher and a clinical

0:32

neuropsychologist. We're going to be putting our

0:34

own memories to the test and looking

0:36

at the future of memory as well. So

0:38

I'll be at the Torrens Parade Ground

0:40

in Adelaide at 6 .15 p .m. on Wednesday

0:42

the 5th of March, and I hope

0:44

I see you there. OK, here

0:46

is the scenario. You are

0:48

at a dinner party. You're having

0:51

a good time. You're chatting

0:53

to people. You're feeling chill. And

0:55

then you drop a glass

0:57

of wine all over the cream

0:59

-colored carpet. Oh, no. And

1:01

no, this isn't white or even rosé.

1:04

This is a full -bodied red. That's

1:06

definitely going to stain. What goes through

1:08

your mind in this moment? If

1:10

you're like me, you feel awful

1:12

and embarrassed, and you're apologizing profusely

1:14

and promising to never drink red

1:16

wine again. You say, look, I'll

1:18

pay to get it cleaned up. I'm

1:20

a klutz. And then, generally, it gets

1:22

taken care of. And then the next

1:24

day, you're a different dinner party. You're

1:26

spilling wine on somebody else's carpet, you

1:28

know? Or you decide you're not going

1:30

to go to dinner parties where carpets

1:33

exist and you're going to only drink

1:35

white wine or something. You are

1:37

human, and you made a mistake. But

1:40

then there are people who feel

1:43

like the wine -spilling makes them

1:45

a bad person to the core or

1:47

proves they're a bad person to the

1:49

core. For the

1:51

person with the core

1:53

self -hatred, it is

1:56

a manifestation of

1:58

their badness. Of course,

2:00

this happened to

2:02

me. I not only

2:05

did... this to happen to me

2:07

and pay the consequences. I deserve the

2:09

shame and the ridicule." This is a

2:12

hideous headspace to be trapped in. But

2:14

Dr. Blaise-Igieri reckons not enough people talk

2:16

openly about this kind of experience of

2:18

self-loathing. He's a child, an adolescent psychiatrist,

2:21

with the Harvard Medical School, and he's

2:23

the author of the book, I hate

2:25

myself, overcome self-loathing, and realize why you're

2:27

wrong about you. This

2:31

is all in the mind. I'm

2:33

Sana Khadar and today we are

2:35

talking about self-hatred. We'll cover what

2:37

it is. It starts off with

2:40

the idea that they are deeply

2:42

flawed. Where it comes from? I

2:44

have not met a person that

2:46

isn't highly sensitive that hates themselves.

2:49

And how to manage it? You

2:51

have to create this wedge from

2:53

the idea that self-hatred is a

2:56

core part of your identity and

2:58

you. And a heads up. This

3:00

episode touches on the topic of

3:02

suicide, so take care while listening.

3:05

I don't know about you, but

3:07

I have definitely felt self-hatred at

3:09

various points in time. And not

3:11

when I've spilt wine at a

3:14

party, which I am prone to

3:16

doing, because I am clutcy, but

3:18

more so when more major things

3:21

are not going right in my

3:23

life, like in my relationships or

3:25

my work, for example. But the

3:27

kind of self-hatred that Dr. Blaze

3:30

Aguirre is talking about is a

3:32

different beast altogether, and one that

3:34

is foreign to me. So I

3:36

asked Dr. Aguirre to tell me

3:39

in more detail about what goes

3:41

on in the head of a

3:43

person who struggles with this kind

3:46

of... deeper self-loathing. So take yourself

3:48

back into the headspace of those

3:50

moments when you've been dissatisfied. And

3:52

maybe it's been in the context

3:55

of a relationship. maybe it's been

3:57

in the context of a job,

3:59

maybe a project that you were

4:02

going. And it just didn't go

4:04

as well as you wanted. And

4:06

then you, you know, you're self-critical,

4:08

you know, you sort of, I

4:11

shouldn't have dated that person, you

4:13

know, I should have asked these

4:15

questions in the interview, etc. But

4:17

you don't then take that dissatisfaction,

4:20

but then you go to, you

4:22

know, yell at your parents and

4:24

tell them that they're awful and

4:27

stuff like that, because it's circumscribed

4:29

transcribed to that event. But for

4:31

people with a pervasive sense of

4:33

self-loathing... First of all, it starts

4:36

with the idea that I'm a

4:38

deeply flawed person, so that's built

4:40

into this sense of self. And

4:42

then all the things that happened

4:45

to me are a manifestation of

4:47

my flawedness. It's almost conic. Then

4:49

when occasionally good things happen, those

4:52

are discounted as, you know, luck

4:54

or just some other happenstance or

4:56

that, sure, that good thing happened,

4:58

but something really bad is going

5:01

to continue. Let me give you

5:03

an example of just how toxic

5:05

and sometimes irrational this kind of

5:07

thinking can be. Blaze had this

5:10

one patient he'd been working with,

5:12

who one day turned up about

5:14

10 minutes late to an appointment.

5:17

And she was so horrified with

5:19

herself, so ashamed for her tardiness,

5:21

that she told Blaze she thought

5:23

he would be justified in slapping

5:26

her. You know, this was a

5:28

child who she was adopted, and

5:30

the people who had adopted her

5:32

felt that she was at risk

5:35

for not getting into a good

5:37

college and not having a successful

5:39

life. And so they were ultra-ultracritical

5:42

of her, you know, insisting that

5:44

she... be perfect, that you get

5:46

perfect grades, that you be in

5:48

better than average athletic shape, better

5:51

dressed than the average kid, and

5:53

all of that stuff. So the

5:55

message is... that you cannot fail

5:57

because if you fail what's going

6:00

to happen is you'll be rejected

6:02

by colleges and then you know

6:04

when you don't get into a

6:07

good college you're not going to

6:09

meet the right caliber partner and

6:11

when you don't meet the right

6:13

caliber partner you're going to get

6:16

into a poor relationship. So even

6:18

though these adoptive parents were

6:20

very well meaning the messaging is

6:22

that you're not good enough and

6:24

so what would what would happen

6:27

is if she was late if

6:29

she didn't get an A, if

6:31

she didn't hand in her homework

6:33

on time, she was severely punished.

6:35

So she started to pair the

6:37

idea that when you don't satisfy

6:40

or perform up to the standard,

6:42

that people that care about you

6:44

expect that you deserve punishment. So

6:46

by showing up late, and you

6:48

know, she respected our therapy and

6:51

she always was prompt. she thought

6:53

that, oh, well, here's somebody

6:55

who seems to care about

6:57

me and really wants me to,

6:59

you know, have better mental

7:01

health, but I'm disrespecting him by

7:04

showing a blade. And I think

7:06

in that situation, I don't know,

7:08

it was traffic or a bus

7:10

or something happened, you know, it

7:13

was out of her control. But

7:15

even if it had been within

7:17

her control, the idea was that

7:19

that kind of negligence

7:21

deserved punishment. said that to you. Well

7:24

you know I mean I said like

7:26

I don't even know how you got

7:28

there. She still thought that I should

7:30

be more upset and I said you

7:33

know that's not how my wiring works.

7:35

You might be wondering how common

7:37

this kind of feeling is

7:40

and the trouble is we

7:42

don't really know. Blaze says

7:44

research on self-loathing isn't well

7:46

developed and he's hoping his

7:48

book can help inspire more

7:50

of it. But one thing

7:52

he has noticed in his

7:54

clinical experience is that women

7:56

tend to be more inclined

7:58

to feel self-hate. The reasons

8:00

for this would be many and

8:03

varied and honestly could probably take

8:05

a whole separate episode to explore,

8:07

but let's focus on how self-hatred

8:09

can develop, what causes it, in

8:11

general. I want to talk about

8:14

what leads a person to develop

8:16

this kind of core pervasive self-loathing,

8:18

because you're right that we're not

8:20

born hating ourselves. So can we

8:22

safely blame, you know, our parents?

8:25

Like is it the result of

8:27

high pressure parenting or abusive parenting?

8:29

Like, how much does the parenting

8:31

a person receives, you know, result

8:34

in self-loathing? Not at all. I

8:36

don't want to blame the parents.

8:38

If the messages that parents are

8:40

to blame, then I've done an

8:42

awful job. So if you think

8:45

about this, the child is not

8:47

born hating hating itself. It has

8:49

to merit to hate itself. And

8:51

the teachers. whether intentional or not,

8:54

are the people in the environment,

8:56

it can be the parent, it

8:58

can be relatives, it can be

9:00

neighbors, it can be bullies in

9:02

school. Now, one thing that all

9:05

of these kids had in common,

9:07

every one of them, was that

9:09

they were highly sensitive people. So

9:11

I have not met a person

9:14

that isn't highly sensitive, they hate

9:16

themselves. Now, why is this? Well,

9:18

because high sensitivity and high emotionality

9:20

is like... the super blue for

9:22

labels. So that if I say,

9:25

oh, you're so stupid, to a

9:27

kid who's not sensitive and you

9:29

could just brush it off, they

9:31

just move on, to the high-sensitive

9:34

child, that sensitivity glues that concept

9:36

into their self-construct. A quick word

9:38

on highly sensitive people, research on

9:40

the idea that there are highly

9:43

sensitive people, began to emerge in

9:45

the 90s, led by psychologists Elaine

9:47

and Arthur Aaron. And studies suggest

9:50

that highly sensitive people, sometimes termed

9:52

HSPs, tend to be, well, more

9:54

sensitive. They feel emotions more deeply.

9:57

they are more aware of the

9:59

feelings of others and they react

10:01

more strongly to stimuli like pain

10:04

noise or temperature. Research around HSPs

10:06

is still also developing but as

10:08

Blaise says in his practice it's

10:11

these people who are at higher

10:13

risk of self-hatred. And it happens

10:15

when it's very very young so

10:17

you've got this highly sensitive child

10:20

who's being criticized. Maybe it's like

10:22

the people I just described who

10:24

through well intention insisted that their

10:27

child get straight A's, show up

10:29

on time, be well dressed and

10:31

well combed, etc. And the message

10:34

that they're getting is that you're

10:36

not enough. And so they're beginning

10:38

to turn around. Sometimes it is

10:41

physical, sexual, emotional abuse. Sometimes it's

10:43

bullying. But remember that these are

10:45

really highly sensitive children who are

10:48

going to take. those criticisms as

10:50

a manifestation of their flawedness. I

10:52

have four of my own children.

10:55

My two youngest, I have the

10:57

emotional sensitivity of... oatry. My two

10:59

oldest are ultra-sensitive. So the two

11:02

youngest, they were playing soccer or

11:04

something and said, get up, run,

11:06

go kick the ball. And then

11:09

get up and go kick the

11:11

ball. The other two, like, eh,

11:13

they start crying, why are you

11:16

bothered? You know, and so the

11:18

thing is, is that, you know,

11:20

you have different children and you're

11:23

different levels of sensitivity. And what's

11:25

fine to say to one kid,

11:27

sticks painfully in the minds of

11:30

another kid. How

11:33

much does also trauma and a

11:35

traumatic childhood play into, you know,

11:37

how likely people are to develop

11:39

self-loathing? So three of my patients

11:41

with a severe self-achate were extremely

11:44

suicidal, had early childhood sexual trauma,

11:46

and not only that, they all

11:48

had siblings, and they were the

11:50

only ones who were singled out

11:53

for this, for the sexual abuse.

11:55

And so this idea of... especially

11:57

as they started to get older

11:59

and realize that what was happening

12:02

to them was abusive and was

12:04

very hurtful. And then especially when

12:06

it wasn't happening to their siblings

12:08

and that they felt that, you

12:11

know, that they couldn't tell anyone,

12:13

they kept it within them and

12:15

they started to feel, this is

12:17

happening to me because there's something

12:19

wrong with me. The other thing

12:21

I'm wondering is. How often is

12:24

self-hatred a thing that kind of

12:26

exists on its own or is

12:28

it usually tied up in a

12:30

larger mental health issue like borderline

12:33

personality disorder or depression or whatever

12:35

else in the way that perfectionism

12:37

often turns up in anorexia, for

12:39

example? Yeah, that's a really, really

12:41

good question and actually what's interesting

12:43

to me is that I thought,

12:46

you know, well mainly I were

12:48

with people with borderline personality disorder,

12:50

so I thought it was just

12:52

in people with borderline personality disorder,

12:54

but then I started to work

12:56

with an eating disorder program with

12:58

people that are exium and believing

13:00

a Rosa, etc. and then I

13:02

saw a lot of self-loathing there,

13:04

and then I... I had a

13:06

colleague who was referring me patients

13:08

with severe OCD and I

13:10

saw some of them had

13:13

self-loathing and then there was

13:15

even people without mental illness

13:17

who were, say, you know,

13:19

I met some trans people

13:21

who had internalized transphobia and

13:23

we needed themselves and they

13:25

didn't have any like formal

13:27

psychiatric diagnosis. So one of

13:29

the questions is, you know,

13:31

should it be a standalone?

13:33

diagnosis in the

13:35

DSM with certain modifiers. And

13:38

again, you know, there's no

13:40

research, there's no questions about

13:43

this. So I think so

13:45

much more understanding needs to

13:48

take place, but I do

13:50

think it can be part

13:53

of certain illnesses or certain

13:55

psychiatric diagnoses, but it also

13:58

could stand alone. on ABC

14:00

Radio National, I'm Santa Cadar. Dr.

14:03

Blaise-Gire is a child and adolescent

14:05

psychiatrist, and he's the author of

14:07

the book, I Hate Myself. And

14:10

he got interested in the topic

14:12

of self-loathing back in the early

14:14

2000s, when he began working at

14:17

a place called McLean Hospital. It's

14:19

a psychiatric hospital, affiliated with the

14:21

Harvard Medical School, and interestingly, it's

14:24

also the hospital where Girl Interrupted

14:26

is set. That's the book that

14:28

later became the film, starring Angelina

14:31

Jolie and Winona Ryder. But here's

14:33

what got him thinking about self-hatred

14:35

to begin with. You know, I

14:38

think that the worst possible consequence

14:40

of any psychiatric disorder is obviously

14:42

the ultimate price. It's somebody taking

14:45

their life. And we know that

14:47

suicidal thoughts and behaviors are common

14:49

in conditions like depression, bipolar disorder

14:52

and others. And when I got

14:54

to McLean, one of the things

14:56

that I saw was that there

14:59

are many children who were sadly

15:01

very very suicidal, and that the

15:04

standard of care was they would

15:06

come into the hospital, maybe they

15:08

would express suicidality, they'd be locked

15:11

away in a padded room, you

15:13

know, with constant observation. They would

15:15

seem to settle, and then they'd

15:18

go back into the environment where

15:20

suicidal thinking. had sort of evolved.

15:22

So nothing was really happening in

15:25

terms of treatment per se. They

15:27

were just settling for a little

15:29

bit. And this didn't seem right.

15:32

So in 2007 I started a

15:34

treatment unit for suicidal and self-injures

15:36

kids. And we decided to turn

15:39

conventional thinking on his head. We

15:41

weren't going to lock people up.

15:43

We were going to give them

15:46

in a lot of very powerful

15:48

psychiatric medications. We weren't going to

15:50

strap them down. That we were

15:53

going to treat their symptoms as

15:55

a manifestation of their suffering. And

15:57

that by listening to them and

16:00

then giving them the skills to

16:02

be able to manage differently in

16:04

different situations, that they would improve.

16:07

And in fact, that that's exactly

16:09

what happened. I mean, if you're

16:11

going to go and travel in,

16:14

I don't know, Greece, and you

16:16

say, I'm really worried about it,

16:18

and I don't know what to

16:21

do, and I say, well, why

16:23

don't I teach you some Greek?

16:26

You're going to settle. So kids

16:28

settled. However, there was a group

16:30

of young people. who despite knowing

16:33

all these skills tragically took their

16:35

life. And even though using the

16:37

therapy I used, dialectical behavior therapy,

16:40

we had brought down the level

16:42

of suicidal thinking and action, self-destructive

16:44

behaviors. There was still this group

16:47

of people that for whom despite

16:49

having all their skills, you know,

16:51

paid the ultimate price of their...

16:54

mental struggle and that was death

16:56

by suicide and I wondered what

16:58

is it about that group that

17:01

we couldn't help? And when I

17:03

started reviewing the records and talking

17:05

to some of my more suicidal

17:08

patients, they all had this core

17:10

self-hatred. So then I thought, okay,

17:12

well, you know, there's many risk

17:15

factors for suicidality and, you know,

17:17

maybe there's substance use and you

17:19

can target the substance. So I

17:22

thought, let me just start with

17:24

the self-hatred. But again, I went

17:26

to the literature, there was no

17:29

therapy for self-hatred. No one was

17:31

even talking about it. And so

17:33

I thought, if this is such

17:36

a core part of why people

17:38

end up taking their lives or

17:40

living with chronic suicidality, why don't

17:43

we have a treatment for it?

17:45

And so that's what got me

17:47

going. All these

17:50

years later, Blaise says there

17:52

still isn't a standardized treatment

17:54

for self-hate. And when he's

17:56

tried dialectical behavior therapy or

17:58

cognitive behavior therapy... it hasn't

18:00

worked. So what he does

18:02

now with patients is more

18:05

dynamic. You have to create

18:07

this wedge, the separation from

18:09

the idea that you were born

18:11

with self-hatred, that

18:13

self-hatred is a core part

18:15

of your identity, and you.

18:18

You have to create an understanding

18:20

that this is a learned construct.

18:22

And so the first thing I

18:24

do is like when, so maybe

18:27

I do an evaluation and there's

18:29

nothing going on there. Maybe there's

18:32

some anxiety or depression, I treat

18:34

the anxiety or depression and move

18:36

on. The next patient comes in

18:39

and doing an evaluation and I

18:41

see a lot of people pleasing,

18:43

I see a lot of perfectionism,

18:46

I see a lot of self-criticism,

18:48

self-judgment, self-disgust. And I say, you

18:50

know, wow, it doesn't seem like you

18:52

like yourself very much. do you not

18:54

like yourself? And they'll say, well, I'm

18:56

not a lot. Are there times you

18:59

do like yourself? Yeah, there are

19:01

sometimes I like myself, you know,

19:03

I've got these friends, I really

19:05

enjoy spending time with them. That's

19:07

not necessarily core self-loathing. Although I'm

19:09

going to keep out an ear

19:11

out for if that worsens. But

19:13

it's no, there isn't a time

19:15

that I like myself. I always

19:17

say myself. Wow. So who, who, when

19:20

did you learn to hate yourself? to

19:22

hate yourself? They're like, what? What are

19:24

you talking about? I was born this way.

19:26

No, you weren't born that way. Charles is

19:28

not born hating himself. It cannot

19:30

be born hating itself. It doesn't have

19:33

a concept of what hatred is. So

19:35

you had to learn it. Who were your

19:37

teachers? And so I want you to start

19:39

writing down who your teachers were of self-hatred.

19:42

Who were the people who've heard you so badly

19:44

that you believed that this was true? And

19:46

by the way, some of these people could

19:48

have been people that... loved you deeply.

19:50

So for instance I had another family

19:53

so the parents had gone to Yale

19:55

University. Two of the children had gone

19:57

to Yale University and the youngest was

19:59

no. scientifically or academically gifted, they

20:01

were wonderful artists, but they were

20:04

not, you know, and so when

20:06

you went into their house, all

20:08

you saw was Yale paraphernalia. And

20:10

so the message was, you had

20:12

better go to Yale, even though

20:14

the parents never stated it. It

20:17

was sort of implicit, or it

20:19

was explicit, explicit. And so she

20:21

always felt that she didn't live

20:23

up to the standards of the

20:25

parents and the standards of the

20:28

older sisters. And she was highly

20:30

sensitive. So she, that internal criticism,

20:32

was like, if I were a

20:34

better person, my parents would love

20:36

me more. If I were, you

20:38

know, more academically talented, I'd be

20:41

more like my sisters. And so

20:43

if she internalized this message. and

20:45

really did not like herself very

20:47

much. And you know, that one

20:49

was a little bit different to

20:52

treat because what happened is when

20:54

the parents realized what was going

20:56

on, they really supported her going

20:58

to art school. They realized just

21:00

how invalidating it must have been

21:03

to have had Yale, you know,

21:05

capillary, Yale, plates, Yale, posters all

21:07

over the place. To a child

21:09

who isn't going to get there.

21:13

The other thing Dr. Aguirre

21:15

does is to try and

21:17

help patients actively unlearn the

21:19

self-hate that they've learned. Just

21:21

telling them to love themselves

21:24

or that you love them

21:26

does not make a dent.

21:28

Once they see there's some

21:30

erosion, there's some wedge between

21:32

sense of self and self-hatred,

21:34

they see that it was

21:36

learned. Then we say, what

21:38

are the actions to take

21:40

to unlearn? those sorts of

21:42

things. Okay, so let's just

21:44

think about the elements that

21:46

perpetuate and reinforce our patron.

21:48

Unhealthy relationships because you think

21:50

you deserve them. So what

21:53

we're going to do is

21:55

we're going to practice getting

21:57

into healthy relationships. You're not

21:59

going to jump in. to

22:01

bear with the same first

22:03

person you meet. You're not

22:05

going to tolerate their abusive

22:07

behavior towards you. You're going

22:09

to walk away from those

22:11

relationships because you've learned

22:13

this behavior and we

22:15

don't want these people

22:17

to be your teacher. We're going

22:20

to re-classify small acts

22:22

of self-caring behavior as

22:24

small acts of

22:27

self-compassion. If you're going to the

22:29

gym to be healthier, you're taking

22:31

care of your body. If you're

22:33

rushing your teeth, you're taking care

22:35

of yourself. If you're getting to bed

22:38

early, you're taking care of your mind.

22:40

If you create a sense of future you,

22:42

so if we take the analogy of future

22:44

you's going to go live in Greece, the

22:47

time to start learning Greek is not when

22:49

you get to Greece. It's now. So if

22:51

you think about future you, two years from

22:54

now, are you going to be hating? Do

22:56

you want to be hating yourself? Can

22:58

you start to see that there was a

23:00

learned behavior and that you can learn to

23:02

see acts of self-compassion and

23:05

self-care as loving actions towards

23:07

yourself? So it has to be

23:09

gradual. So it sounds like creating

23:11

that wedge between their sense of self

23:14

and like that feeling that self-hatred

23:16

is part of them. That's like

23:18

the first and most important and

23:20

most difficult step. Is that correct?

23:22

Is that correct? Is that correct?

23:24

Is that correct? that you are

23:26

100% correct. You're 100% correct.

23:29

I don't know how it

23:31

can be done without creating

23:33

that wage. Do we know yet whether

23:35

working on self-hatred

23:38

and minimizing that

23:40

also minimizes suicidality?

23:42

Yeah, well this is

23:44

the one thing that I

23:46

feel pretty convinced about. So

23:48

the way in which I

23:50

decided to... kind of research

23:52

or have patient collaborators in

23:55

my book was really to

23:57

take the people who'd had

23:59

the most a psychiatric inpatient unit

24:01

for suicidal behavior. So I wanted

24:03

people who were really, really suffering

24:05

with a lot of self-hatred, who'd

24:08

had multiple hospitalizations, who'd made near

24:10

lethal attempts on their life. So,

24:12

you know, I think I've got

24:14

like 10 who've journeyed with me,

24:16

and subsequent to the work that

24:18

we've done together, not a single

24:21

one of them has been hospitalized

24:23

again. They've all described... huge reductions

24:25

in their self-hatred. In many cases,

24:27

an improvement in how they see

24:29

themselves and not only reductions in

24:32

self-hatred, one of them now married

24:34

her childhood sweetheart and has three

24:36

children and has become a nurse,

24:38

just something that she never believed

24:40

could possibly happen as taking care

24:43

of people. And when people thank

24:45

her for the work that she

24:47

does, she accepts it as a

24:49

true manifestation of like... her ability.

24:51

And they all attribute the reduction

24:53

in suicidality to the improvement in

24:56

their self-hatred because they now don't

24:58

feel that they're abode. Right, right.

25:00

And so is that still anecdotal

25:02

or did you publish that in

25:04

a paper? The thing is, is

25:07

that this has been an evolution

25:09

in my mind for a few

25:11

years and pen to paper over

25:13

the last year. Really, it's an

25:15

idea and it's infancy. So I

25:18

have an anecdotal caseload of 10

25:20

patients who didn't take their lives.

25:22

But here's the thing about that.

25:24

And by the way, maybe it's

25:26

just because I'm fabulous. I mean,

25:28

who knows? I mean, maybe it's

25:31

got nothing to do with that.

25:33

You know, maybe it's because they

25:35

felt that somebody believed in them.

25:37

I don't know. So maybe there's

25:39

all these other factors. Sure. But

25:42

what I'm saying is the fact

25:44

that. people who are most likely

25:46

to do that by saying it,

25:48

even if just one didn't take

25:50

their lives, that means that that

25:53

person is in relationship with somebody

25:55

else feeling better about who they

25:57

are suffering a lot less. So

25:59

in other words... I don't know.

26:01

I just know that the group

26:04

of people I work with were

26:06

like, how you suicide, and you're

26:08

exactly right. What were the factors?

26:10

Is it just anecdotal? We just,

26:12

not the thing is, if this

26:14

can catalyse more research into this

26:17

whole topic, then we'll get the

26:19

researchers out there in applying for

26:21

grants. To end on, really. Do you

26:23

have a final bit of advice that

26:26

you'd like to leave people with who

26:28

struggle with self-loathing, who listen to this

26:30

episode, and yeah, what's a final

26:32

kind of message you'd want to leave

26:35

people with? I love our patients who

26:37

hate themselves, which is sort of like

26:39

a very bizarre thing to say, and

26:41

that is because I see them. I

26:44

see their... inner strains, their beauties, the

26:46

wonder of who they are as human

26:48

beings of the things that they're capable

26:51

of, and they don't see that within

26:53

themselves. So if you're out there

26:55

and you're saying, I really

26:57

identify with this concept of

27:00

self-hatred, is to say that concept,

27:02

something that you learned such a

27:04

long, long time ago, you can

27:06

erode that. It's almost like going

27:08

to like one of those house

27:10

of mirrors where everything is distorted

27:12

and suddenly you see clarity because

27:14

and you see a mirror that

27:16

shows you who you really are

27:18

so you're not deserving of it.

27:20

It was built on a false premise

27:23

about who you are. It is understandable

27:25

that as a young child you wouldn't

27:27

have known what else to think but

27:29

you don't have to believe it any

27:31

longer. And yeah because it was learned

27:34

it can be unlearned I suppose.

27:36

comes so much more naturally to

27:38

the human heart than hatred does.

27:40

And so you've got to allow

27:43

it to sink in a little

27:45

bit. That is Dr. Blaze Aguirre,

27:47

a child and adolescent psychiatrist working

27:49

at McLean Hospital in Massachusetts.

27:51

He's also on the faculty

27:54

at Harvard Medical School and

27:56

he's the author of the

27:58

book I Hate. myself, overcome

28:00

self -loathing, and realize

28:03

why you're wrong about

28:05

you. you're wrong if this

28:07

episode raised any issues

28:10

for you, you can

28:12

call any issues for you, you can call

28:14

Lifeline any time on 131114. And that is

28:16

it for all in the mind this

28:19

that is it for producer

28:21

week, Kerr, thanks to producer

28:23

James Producer James sound and

28:26

sound engineer Isabella Tropiano. I'm

28:28

Sonicadar. you so much

28:30

for listening, for catch you

28:32

next time. catch you next time.

29:27

time. You've

29:35

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