0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts, radio,

0:02

Radio. and more.

0:04

Charles Duhig thought he was

0:06

an excellent Charles Duhigg thought

0:08

he was an excellent communicator.

0:11

He was a journalist, he had

0:13

a Pulitzer to his literal

0:15

job was to communicate. at

0:17

the made me a manager at the New

0:19

York was where I was working at the

0:21

time I I discovered I had no idea

0:23

what I was doing. doing. And

0:26

I actually was was okay the like the logistics

0:28

part of it, but of course the

0:30

logistics part is not the hard part

0:32

of hard part of was the management part

0:34

that I was terrible at that it was

0:36

all because I would do a bad

0:38

job job like I would fail to

0:40

hear what people were really trying to

0:43

tell me tell couldn't get across, you know,

0:45

what was important to me to me.

0:47

Was that something you were were internally

0:49

starting to realize to people telling you

0:51

you were a bad communicator? a

0:53

Like, how did that Realization of of evolved.

0:55

no, no, my colleagues did not hide

0:57

it it that I was I was the

0:59

at the job. Oh no. Charles was confused, but he

1:01

was confused, but he was

1:03

also curious. to connect really wanted to

1:05

connect with these people and I wanted us

1:07

to work together as a team and I I couldn't

1:09

figure out what was going wrong. wrong. So being

1:12

a writer, naturally he decided

1:14

to investigate communication more deeply deeply

1:16

write about it. it. He wanted

1:18

to know what people who are

1:20

incredibly effective at communicating do

1:22

that the rest of us don't.

1:24

don't. He spoke to CIA recruiters,

1:26

NASA psychologists, researchers, more. and

1:28

more. these And he calls

1:30

these people, and his

1:32

book, And what's really interesting what's really interesting

1:34

is they were not because they were born

1:37

as great communicators. They're not charismatic.

1:39

They're not necessarily extroverts or introverts. It's

1:41

literally just a set of skills

1:43

that anyone can learn. can And once

1:45

we learn them, them. we can use

1:47

them really easily. easily. So we're gonna

1:49

dig into what these skills are

1:51

and how they can help you

1:53

talk to new people, get

1:55

closer to people you already know,

1:57

and have more civil conversations

1:59

with you disagree with. All the stuff that

2:02

will hopefully help you navigate the summer's

2:04

social season. This is all in the

2:06

mind. I'm Sonic Adar. Today, we revisit

2:08

the science of conversation and connection. There

2:11

are some people who are really good

2:13

at connection, like particularly through conversation. And

2:15

for most of us, though, It seems

2:17

like almost like hit or miss sometimes.

2:19

This is my favorite way to point

2:22

out who a super communicator is. If

2:24

I was to ask you, Santa, if

2:26

you were having a bad day, and

2:28

you wanted to call someone who you

2:31

know would make you feel better, does

2:33

the person you would call come immediately

2:35

to mind? Yeah, yeah, my bestie in

2:37

Toronto, Ashley. So what's interesting is that

2:39

for you, Ashley is a super communicator,

2:42

and you're probably a super communicator for

2:44

her. She calls you when she feels

2:46

down. Right. Now there's some people, though,

2:48

who can do this without anyone. It

2:51

doesn't matter what they do or don't

2:53

have in common or how they're divided

2:55

from each other. Some people have thought

2:57

a little bit more about communication and

3:00

they know how to connect with almost

3:02

anyone. And so what are these people

3:04

who can do that for everyone? What

3:06

is the secret sauce of communication here

3:08

that they've clued into? So there's a

3:11

couple of things that we can observe

3:13

really easily, but it's something underneath it

3:15

that matters more. So the things we

3:17

can observe. Super communicators, they tend to

3:20

ask 10 to 20 times as many

3:22

questions as the average person. But most

3:24

of the time, yeah, I know it's

3:26

a lot of questions, but most of

3:28

the time we don't even register them

3:31

as questions because it's things like, oh,

3:33

that's interesting, or tell me more about

3:35

that, or tell me more about that.

3:37

Supercommunicators tend to laugh more than other

3:40

people, but they don't laugh at jokes.

3:42

They laugh to show you that they

3:44

like what you're saying. They also show

3:46

us that they're listening. to either follow

3:49

up questions or this thing called looping

3:51

for understanding. And underneath all of this

3:53

is this basic thing, which is that

3:55

super communicators are super communicators because they

3:57

show people that they want to connect

4:00

with them. Oftentimes, we want to connect

4:02

with all kinds of people, but we

4:04

don't necessarily show them that we want

4:06

to connect with them. And how do

4:09

they show that without? coming off to

4:11

clingy or whatever, you know, like all

4:13

the things that normally enter our heads

4:15

when we're trying to connect with people

4:17

and we're like, well, but I don't

4:20

want to seem too desperate or whatever

4:22

else. Exactly, or I don't want to,

4:24

I don't want to seem inauthentic. So

4:26

there's a number of skills that can

4:29

help us do this. The first is

4:31

figuring out what kind of conversation. I

4:33

have to spend a little bit of

4:35

time just trying to figure out, like,

4:38

what kind of frame of mind you're

4:40

in? Are you in a practical frame

4:42

of mind or an emotional frame of

4:44

mind? And then I'm going to match

4:46

you and I'm going to invite you

4:49

to match me. This is one of

4:51

the strategies Charles wasn't deploying at work

4:53

when he was having trouble as a

4:55

manager. It was also something that he

4:58

and his wife were fumbling at home.

5:00

I would often come home from work

5:02

after a tough day. I would start

5:04

complaining to my wife and telling her,

5:06

you know, my boss is a jerk

5:09

and the coworkers don't appreciate me. And

5:11

she very reasonably would offer me some

5:13

practical advice. She'd say something like, why

5:15

don't you take your boss out to

5:18

lunch and get to know each other

5:20

better. But instead of being able to

5:22

hear what she was saying to me,

5:24

I would get more upset. I would

5:27

get more upset. I would say, you're

5:29

supposed to have my side on this.

5:31

I want you to be outraged on

5:33

my behalf. And then she would get

5:35

outraged on my behalf. And so I

5:38

went to all these experts and I

5:40

asked them kind of what's going on

5:42

here. Like why am I having so

5:44

much trouble communicating with with not only

5:47

my workmates but with my wife? And

5:49

they said we tend to think of

5:51

a discussion as being about one thing.

5:53

know, our plan

5:55

for our vacation or what

5:58

to do to do

6:00

about our taxes, but

6:02

actually every conversation

6:04

is multiple kinds of

6:07

conversations. they in particular,

6:09

they tend to fall into one of three

6:11

buckets. There's these practical conversations when we have

6:13

to sort of make decisions or solve problems. or

6:15

But then there's also emotional conversations when I

6:17

want to tell you what my problem is,

6:19

and I don't want you to solve don't

6:21

me. I want you just to listen and

6:23

empathize. you And there's social conversations, which is about

6:26

how we relate to each other and how

6:28

we relate to the world. to the world. And

6:30

they said, said, what's happening is you're coming

6:32

home and you're having an emotional conversation having

6:34

your wife is having a practical conversation. wife

6:36

is And both of those are valid, but

6:38

because you're not having the same kind

6:40

of conversation, you can't hear each other. kind

6:42

And that's what needs to change. can't hear each

6:44

other. And that's what other skill The

6:47

says really effective effective use

6:49

is called is called for

6:51

understanding. See if you've heard of

6:53

this one before. before. So there's these three

6:55

steps to looping for understanding, and this is

6:57

particularly important when we're talking with someone

6:59

and there's a conflict, you know, we disagree

7:02

about something a it's a hard conversation. know, we

7:04

What's important is to prove to you

7:06

that I'm listening. And so what I'll do

7:08

is I'll ask you a question I'm step

7:10

number And and there are certain questions that

7:12

are more powerful than others, we can

7:14

talk about number one. And there are number two is

7:16

I'll listen to what you say, and then

7:18

I'm gonna repeat back in my own

7:20

words I'll I heard you just say. And step number

7:23

and this is this is always forgets. always

7:25

I'm gonna ask you if I got it

7:27

right. it right. This sounds very familiar

7:29

from from couples therapy about eye messages and

7:31

exactly, exactly. turns out it works

7:33

even with spouses, with spouses. Right. And the

7:35

reason why that's important is because

7:37

is because if you believe that I

7:39

want to understand you, you will

7:41

want more to understand me. known

7:44

It's known as emotional reciprocity.

7:46

It's one of the most fundamental

7:48

psychological forces among humans. You return to these to

7:50

these principles throughout the book, and one of

7:52

the things I did sort of I did

7:54

one point with at one point with particular particular is that if

7:56

both if both parties happen to be

7:58

super communicators and they're both trying to

8:00

match each other. Does that sort of

8:03

just spin out of control and they

8:05

cancel each other out because no one's

8:07

being their authentic self and both are

8:09

trying to match each other and it

8:11

just doesn't work? Like do you need

8:13

a leader and follower in this kind

8:15

of relationship? Situations like that are wonderful

8:17

because the key to matching is not

8:19

necessarily to be inauthentic. In fact, it's

8:21

exactly the opposite. So let's say we're

8:24

talking to each other again. Let's say

8:26

we bump into work and I say,

8:28

how is your weekend? And you say,

8:30

oh, you know, I actually went to

8:32

a funeral. Many people would just say,

8:34

oh, I'm sorry. That's really hard to

8:36

hear. I'm sorry about that. And then

8:38

they would go on to whatever they

8:40

wanted to talk about. And that might

8:43

be because they're not interested or maybe

8:45

they feel awkward about it. They don't

8:47

want to seem like they're prying. They

8:49

don't want to seem overly familiar. But

8:51

my dad died about six years ago

8:53

and when I came home from the

8:55

funeral I would mention to people that

8:57

I had I had been to his

8:59

funeral and everyone would say the same

9:02

thing. They would say my condolences. And

9:04

then they would move on to something

9:06

else. And I was desperate to talk

9:08

about my dad. Like, if somebody had

9:10

said to me, what was your dad

9:12

like? Or what did people say at

9:14

the funeral? I would have loved to

9:16

have told them. And that's not inauthentic,

9:18

right? That's matching me where I am,

9:20

that I've been through this emotional thing

9:23

and I want to talk about it.

9:25

And if you ask me a question,

9:27

it doesn't feel like you're interested in

9:29

me. And as long as it's authentic,

9:31

then it works. So that is your

9:33

out. If you're not interested or not

9:35

comfortable asking, you don't have to. But

9:37

if this is someone you want to

9:39

connect with, really noticing what they're saying,

9:42

leaning into that, and asking more, can

9:44

help. Now one easy way to make

9:46

those conversations easier. is to ask what

9:48

are known as deep questions. A deep

9:50

question is something that asks the person

9:52

about their values, their beliefs, or their

9:54

experience. And it's pretty easy to ask

9:56

a deep question once you start looking

9:58

for them. So for instance, if I

10:01

bumped into you and I said, oh,

10:03

what do you do for a living?

10:05

And you say, oh, I'm a radio

10:07

host. Then I might say, oh, did

10:09

you always want to be a radio

10:11

host? It's so interesting. Like, when did

10:13

you decide to become a radio host?

10:15

What do you love about your job?

10:17

Right. Those are easy questions to ask

10:20

and all three of them are deep

10:22

questions. Because what I'm really asking you

10:24

to do is talk about your experiences,

10:26

what brought you to this place, your

10:28

beliefs that brought you to journalism. And

10:30

once you reveal that to me, it's

10:32

a perfect opportunity for me to say,

10:34

oh man, you know, I'm a lawyer.

10:36

And I actually love my job the

10:38

same way that you love. being a

10:41

journalist, and this is why. Now I'm

10:43

not actually a lawyer, right? But the

10:45

point being that when we ask these

10:47

deep questions, we're inviting someone to share

10:49

with us, and inevitably what they're going

10:51

to say is something personal. And if

10:53

we... match that, then we begin to

10:55

really hear each other and we begin

10:57

to connect. Yeah, that's really helpful advice

11:00

because it's true, I think a lot

11:02

of people stop at that when they're

11:04

meeting new people in particular, they stop

11:06

at the what do you do for

11:08

work kind of thing and don't go

11:10

much deeper than that, move on to

11:12

something else, surface level. Do these deep

11:14

questions work in long-held relationships as well

11:16

as a way to get closer to

11:19

the people you already love and are

11:21

close to? I do it with my

11:23

kids all the time. Anyone who's a

11:25

parent of a teenager knows, you're like,

11:27

how is school today? Good. Did you

11:29

learn anything? No. So what I discovered

11:31

with my kids is, if I just

11:33

spend half a second before I ask

11:35

them a question and I think of

11:37

a deep question, then it opens them

11:40

up. So oftentimes what I'll say is

11:42

I'll say something like, hey, I was

11:44

just wondering like. What was the most

11:46

boring part of school today? Like what

11:48

was it? What was it? Oh, that's

11:50

a good question. And of course they

11:52

have an answer. And then I say

11:54

why? Like why was that more boring

11:56

than like, you know, when you had

11:59

to like walk to lunch? And they

12:01

have a reason to why. And then

12:03

I say, you know, oh, you're hanging

12:05

out with Jasper. Like, what do you

12:07

admire about? So when I ask these

12:09

deep questions of my kids, it's as

12:11

if I have suddenly unlocked a treasure

12:13

chest. And suddenly they're telling me all

12:15

about, you know, I like this friend

12:18

better than that friend and there's drama

12:20

going on. And sometimes it's like, okay,

12:22

that's enough. I don't need it for

12:24

her. But it's really powerful because people

12:26

love being asked deep questions. In fact,

12:28

there's study after study that shows when

12:30

we're asked a deep question, we feel

12:32

not only more trusting of the other

12:34

person. We feel like we're more interesting

12:37

because they wanted to ask us about

12:39

ourselves. Some of that work on deep

12:41

questions has been done by behavioral scientist

12:43

Professor Nicholas Epley from the University of

12:45

Chicago. If you listen to our episode

12:47

on introversion versus extraversion, you might remember

12:49

we touched on this topic then. Well,

12:51

he told me about this concept called

12:53

deep talk versus surface talk. Deep questions

12:55

have also been researched extensively by husband

12:58

and wife team Elaine and Arthur Aaron

13:00

from Stonybrook University in New York. Starting

13:02

in the 90s, they conducted a bunch

13:04

of studies trying to find the kinds

13:06

of questions that can foster deeper connections

13:08

between strangers. And they landed on a

13:10

series of 36 questions, which you might

13:12

have heard referred to as the Fast

13:14

Friends procedure. That includes questions like, what

13:17

do you value most in a friendship?

13:19

What is your most terrible memory? What's

13:21

a deep question? that you really appreciate

13:23

when people ask you. Oh, that's a

13:25

good question. Anything that starts with why.

13:27

And I think those are the easiest

13:29

deep questions, right? If somebody asks me,

13:31

like, you know, where'd you grow up?

13:33

I grew up in Albuquerque, New Mexico.

13:36

Did you like growing up there? Sure.

13:38

Why? What was it like? Yeah, why

13:40

did you like growing up there? Oh,

13:42

because it was a big town where

13:44

I sort of felt like. a big

13:46

fish in a small pond. And that

13:48

was really satisfying as a teenager. Where

13:50

did you grow up? I grew up

13:52

in Toronto, Canada. Oh, okay. Okay. And

13:54

did you like growing up in Toronto?

13:57

Yes, I did. Yeah. I mean, it

13:59

was a bit cold, but Canada is

14:01

a great place. Otherwise. And what, like,

14:03

what was it about Toronto? Like, what

14:05

do you carry away from Toronto that,

14:07

like, you want your own kids to

14:09

have? How welcoming and multicultural it is

14:11

and feels. I think I might partly

14:13

be looking back at it with rose-tinted

14:16

glasses because it's been a while since

14:18

I've lived there but it's just it

14:20

I never felt like an outsider there.

14:22

Well and think about how much you

14:24

just told me about yourself. Like you

14:26

told me that you value multiculturalism right

14:28

that that's something that that is important

14:30

to you that you find a lot

14:32

of enjoyment and pleasure from. You've told

14:35

me that that you have felt like

14:37

an outsider in the past and that

14:39

when you don't feel like an outsider

14:41

it really delivers a lot of reward

14:43

to you that's really meaningful and you've

14:45

told me that that because I know

14:47

you're in Australia now that you're someone

14:49

who's willing to push themselves out of

14:51

their comfort you liked Toronto and yet

14:54

you left it for another continent. I

14:56

feel like that gives us so much

14:58

to learn, an opportunity to learn about

15:00

each other and so many follow-up questions

15:02

that would be fascinating. And the way

15:04

you just decoded that is really interesting

15:06

to hear you lay it out as

15:08

well because I just said what I

15:10

said, not fully thinking about it in

15:12

that way, but you're right. I communicated

15:15

all of that. And because you're a

15:17

super communicator now after writing this, you

15:19

pick up on all of that. Well,

15:21

and the truth of the matter is,

15:23

if you want to pick up on

15:25

it, you'll. It's not like super communication

15:27

is like some like really hard skill

15:29

like learning to drive a race car.

15:31

It's more like it's more like learning

15:34

to walk across the street where you

15:36

only have to do it once and

15:38

suddenly you you know all the rules

15:40

involved. If I ask you a deep

15:42

question and if I just listen like

15:44

literally half an inch more deeply, I'm

15:46

going to hear you telling me things

15:48

about yourself that are amazing. Okay, now

15:50

I have to follow up on your

15:53

comment about feeling like a big fish

15:55

in a small pond in Albuquerque. Tell

15:57

me more about what you... meant

15:59

by that. You know Albuquerque

16:01

has about half a million people a when

16:03

I was in high school I was the

16:05

student body I was the I managed to get pretty

16:07

good grades without having to work too hard

16:09

and as a result to graduated from high

16:11

school thinking I was the high school

16:13

life pretty quickly taught me that's

16:15

not true it's that you were

16:17

in a small pond you were in a

16:20

to just experience that even if

16:22

you're fooling yourself that I loved

16:24

that loved that. Now,

16:28

as part as part of his

16:30

research, Charles spoke to a

16:32

number of so -called super communicators.

16:34

One was a CIA agent Lawler,

16:36

Jim didn't But Jim didn't

16:39

start out all that super So

16:41

Jim Lawler, he wanted to be in the

16:43

CIA so he wanted to be in

16:45

the CIA he bad and he applies they

16:47

and finally they accept send him to they

16:49

send him to training and then they

16:51

tell him, okay, we're going to

16:53

send you to Europe Europe. it's your

16:56

job to recruit overseas assets to be

16:58

spies for us. And Lawler's

17:00

like, like, I can do this.

17:02

And he goes to Europe he he

17:04

fails again As he again and again,

17:06

was as he described it, he

17:08

was so awkward and so Thai He

17:10

would go to these like and like

17:12

embassy parties. to talk to him. And when wanted to

17:14

talk to him. And when he tried

17:16

to recruit people, it was so clumsy like,

17:18

they would say things like, to know, I'm

17:20

not going to, I'm not going to report

17:22

you to the authorities because it's kind

17:24

of embarrassing how bad this is. how bad this

17:26

So is. So eventually. One of his colleagues tells tells

17:29

there's this woman coming into town, into town, she

17:31

works in the ministry, the the foreign ministry

17:33

of her home country, which is in the

17:35

Middle East. And we want you to

17:37

recruit her. So his his shortcomings, Lawler

17:39

manages to this this woman. he lies But

17:41

he lies and says he's an

17:43

oil speculator. getting as he's getting to

17:45

know her, she starts saying these things and

17:47

you'll guess which country she's from. she's This

17:49

is the early She says things She says know,

17:51

like, you know, country was just taken over

17:53

by religious radicals all the they're making all

17:55

the women and they're they're not letting us study

17:57

things in college and I hate it it.

18:00

to agitate against my government, but I work

18:02

for the government. So one day, Lawler finally

18:04

reveals he works for the CIA, and he

18:06

tells her. What we want are the same

18:09

things you want. We want to improve the

18:11

world. We want to make things better. The

18:13

woman, on surprisingly, doesn't respond very well. She

18:16

says, I will get killed for talking to

18:18

you. I'm furious that you became my friend

18:20

without telling me your CIA, because if

18:22

my government finds out, they will imprison me

18:24

immediately, they will imprison me immediately and she

18:27

runs away. And they say, oh, wait, we

18:29

already told Washington DC that you recruited her.

18:31

You need to close this deal or you

18:34

will be fired. And so Lawler is

18:36

just freaking out. He calls up fast and

18:38

says, will you please have one more dinner

18:40

with me? And she eventually agrees. And he

18:42

starts writing down ideas on how to recruit

18:45

her. And he knows they're all pointless. You

18:47

cannot manipulate someone into taking a suicidal

18:49

risk for you. So they go to dinner

18:51

and Fatsam is really down at the dinner.

18:54

She's really glum because she's leaving in just

18:56

a couple of days to go home and

18:58

she says she's kind of disappointed in herself.

19:00

She thought that something would change in

19:02

Europe and it hasn't. So Lawler, instead of

19:05

matching her, Lawler tries to cheer up. He

19:07

starts telling funny stories, reminiscing about when they

19:09

went sight scene together. But what he's doing

19:12

isn't working. Lawler thinks to himself like, should

19:14

I try and recruit her one more

19:16

one more time? This is not going to

19:18

work. Like I just have to accept that

19:20

I am going to get fired. And at

19:23

that moment, he turns to her and he

19:25

says, you know, look, I kind of understand

19:27

what you're feeling right now because I feel

19:30

the same way about being in the

19:32

CIA. He just says the most honest thing

19:34

that he can think of, which is, I'm

19:36

terrible at this job. Like, I thought I

19:39

was going to be so good at it,

19:41

and I'm so disappointed in myself. And I

19:43

just don't know what I'm doing wrong.

19:45

And I'm doing wrong. And he talks for

19:47

what I'm doing wrong. And he talks for

19:50

doing wrong. And he talks for about doing

19:52

wrong. And he talks for about doing wrong.

19:54

And he talks for about 10 minutes. And

19:57

he talks for about 10 minutes. And

19:59

he talks for about 10 minutes. And he

20:01

feels terrible now. He's like, all I'm doing

20:03

is making this woman feel bad. And he's

20:05

like, I'm sorry. Please stop crying. I didn't

20:08

mean to upset you. And she says, no,

20:10

no, no, I can do this. And

20:12

he's so inexperienced. And he kind of freaks

20:14

out. And he says the first thing. into

20:17

his mind which is no no no you

20:19

don't have to help me like I'm not

20:21

trying to recruit you I'm just I realize

20:23

that you're not going to do this

20:25

and she says no no I can hear

20:28

what you're saying before now I understand I

20:30

want to help you the next day she

20:32

goes into a safe house she gets trained

20:35

in covert communications she becomes the best asset

20:37

in the middle east over the next 20

20:39

years and Jim Lawler becomes one of

20:41

the top recruiters and the reason why I've

20:43

asked him you know what happened there is

20:46

he said What I did is I actually

20:48

for the first time was authentic with her.

20:50

I matched her. She was feeling down and

20:53

instead of trying to cheer her up

20:55

or distract her, I matched her emotional conversation

20:57

and I was honest and genuine and then

20:59

we could actually hear each other. And I

21:02

think that's really powerful. Yeah, and that story

21:04

is really interesting because it's also, it's such

21:06

a high stakes example of where communication.

21:08

is so important. Well, and I think that

21:10

many of us have these really important moments

21:13

throughout our lives, right? The conversation that you

21:15

have with your boss where you ask for

21:17

a raise, that's a really important conversation. But

21:20

the more that we know how to

21:22

handle them, the better they're going to go.

21:24

Yeah, I want to stick with high stakes

21:26

conversations in sort of more the context of

21:28

like difficult. conversations, contentious ones where between two

21:31

people who are arguing or who have very

21:33

different points of view on a topic,

21:35

how does matching and looping for understanding and

21:37

all of this help with those kinds of

21:40

really difficult conversations? Yeah, it's a great question.

21:42

And there's a chapter in the book about

21:44

this experiment where some researchers brought together a

21:46

bunch of people, and this is the

21:48

United States, where some of them were gun

21:51

rights. enthusiasts and some of them were gun

21:53

control activists. And the goal of the experiment

21:55

was not to get them to change each

21:58

other's minds. The goal was just to see

22:00

if they could have a civil conversation. And

22:02

so they taught them a couple of

22:04

techniques, like for instance, you know, looping for

22:06

understanding about trying to match each other. And

22:09

what they found is that once you got

22:11

a little bit deeper, there was often things

22:13

that people shared that they didn't realize. So

22:16

they would ask, you know, someone, why

22:18

is owning guns important to you? And they

22:20

would say, well, look. I live in a

22:22

rural area and sometimes I'm near the border

22:25

and people run drugs across the border and

22:27

so for my children's safety, like that's why

22:29

I own guns. And someone else might

22:31

say, you know, I understand that because the

22:33

reason I'm against guns is because I'm worried

22:36

for my children's safety at school. We have

22:38

all these school shootings. And for the first

22:40

time, they realize they're actually motivated by the

22:43

same thing. That doesn't mean we're going

22:45

to change each other's mind, but that's not

22:47

the point of a conversation. The goal of

22:49

a conversation is not to convince someone of

22:51

something, it's just to understand them and allow

22:54

them to understand you. It's kind of counterintuitive,

22:56

but also sort of makes sense that

22:58

you have to take the goal of trying

23:00

to convince someone off the table so you

23:03

can just talk and understand and that's actually

23:05

the route to possibly actually changing minds. That's

23:07

exactly right. And it's interesting how study after

23:09

study shows this that even if... If I'm

23:12

trying to change your mind, even if

23:14

I think I'm hiding it, you're going to

23:16

know, right? You're going to know why I'm

23:18

asking certain questions. You're going to know that

23:21

I'm not really curious. But if I just

23:23

set that aside and I say, look, I

23:25

genuinely want to understand this other person,

23:27

I understand so well that I can repeat

23:29

back to them what they believe and they

23:32

agree that I got it right, it's hardwired

23:34

into our brain that they will then listen

23:36

to you more closely. But there's one thing

23:39

people tend to do, especially when they disagree

23:41

with someone, that can really derail a conversation.

23:43

American researchers Michael Slepian and Drew Jacoby Sangor

23:45

found when you lump someone into or out

23:47

of a group against their will, you've lost

23:49

the conversation. So think about how frequently this

23:52

happens with conversations over race, right? Particularly, it's

23:54

been true here. the US, that when we

23:56

say to someone, oh, you're black or you're

23:58

white or you're native, you must feel this

24:00

way about something. Our instinct is immediately to

24:02

say, no. It's not to listen. It's to

24:04

say, look, I'm an individual. You can't tell

24:07

me what I believe simply based on the

24:09

color of my skin or based on something

24:11

you know about me. And the way that

24:13

we get around that is that we, A,

24:15

A, ask deep questions, and B. We recognize

24:17

that people do can train all these many

24:20

identities. And so I might turn to someone

24:22

and say, you know, as a father, as

24:24

a black man, and as a father of

24:26

teenagers in America, how do you feel about

24:28

the police? Because I know you're also a

24:30

lawyer, and that probably gives you a pretty

24:33

interesting perspective on this. So I'm just curious,

24:35

like, how do you see the policing situation

24:37

in America? That's such a more inviting way.

24:39

to draw someone into a conversation instead of

24:41

labeling them. That's such an important and useful

24:43

tip, I think, because like you've touched on

24:45

race, you've touched on politics, there are so

24:48

much that divides us. Currently Israel Gaza is

24:50

a really, you know, hot-button topic. So for

24:52

people listening who are trying to navigate these

24:54

conversations, not to put you too much on

24:56

a spot with, you know, Israel Gaza in

24:58

particular, but like, can you distill... down to

25:01

like, you know, a couple of pointers of

25:03

what they can do to try to connect

25:05

with people who are so, I feel so

25:07

far across the divide in order to have

25:09

these conversations. One of the best things to

25:11

do is simply ask, what does this mean

25:14

to you? Why is Israel and Gaza so

25:16

important to you? What does it represent for

25:18

you? Because there's been other humanitarian crises, there's

25:20

been other military action, there's been other attacks,

25:22

like there's something about this that it seems

25:24

like, it means something important to you. And

25:26

then when they respond, and they might say

25:29

something you completely disagree with, they might say,

25:31

look, I think Israel is running in a

25:33

partheid state. And you can say back to

25:35

them, what I hear you saying is that

25:37

when when people are

25:39

separated against their will, when

25:42

when they're live to

25:44

live in certain places,

25:46

you consider that unjust. And

25:48

actually makes a ton

25:50

of sense to me. to

25:52

me. I think that's

25:55

the same thing that

25:57

happened in South Africa,

25:59

same thing that happened

26:01

with Native Americans in

26:03

the United States, same

26:05

thing that happened during

26:08

the Holocaust. in the I

26:10

understand why that would

26:12

be really troubling to

26:14

you. Am I getting

26:16

that right? that would be really

26:18

when they say, I getting that

26:20

right? that's like part

26:23

of it. say, yeah, that's like then

26:25

they'll Then they'll doesn't it bother

26:27

you? you? Like why do you think that

26:29

it's okay for for this to be happening?

26:31

Or they might say, say, tell me me know,

26:33

thoughts on this. How do you see

26:35

Israel differently than I see Israel? I see

26:37

And again, we're not we're not going to

26:39

convince each other. each other. Like, at least in

26:41

one conversation, But what what we are gonna

26:43

do going to gonna understand each other

26:46

a little bit better. bit better and we're

26:48

going to know. that it's not as black

26:50

not as black and white as all of us

26:52

are describing it. And the way that we

26:54

figure out the right answer is usually with other

26:56

people. Yeah, yeah, and I guess guess also

26:58

also sort of takes both parties to

27:00

be chatting in good faith, know, know,

27:03

as opposed not. That's true. That's true.

27:05

That's true. And oftentimes, if you

27:07

make the initiative first, other people

27:09

will mirror you. will, They will feel safe

27:11

safe enough enough trusted enough that

27:13

they can do the same thing

27:15

back So it matters how you you broach that

27:18

conversation then. then. Yeah, yeah, I think I think

27:20

sometimes know, you know, the things of the things

27:22

that super communicators do is they, is they

27:24

take the first step. They offer a

27:26

thick leaf. They say, look, I They say, look, I you,

27:28

but agree with you, but I think you

27:30

made some really, really good points. And like,

27:32

the thing that's really interesting that you just

27:34

said that I've learned a lot from

27:36

is I've learned a lot And that's an invitation, right?

27:38

If you hear someone say that, it's

27:41

almost impossible for you not to say, thank

27:43

you. Like I actually think you've made

27:45

some really good points too, right? you've made some really

27:47

good points too, right? Right. It feels rude. And

27:50

I guess guess a final bit of parting advice

27:52

for listeners. There's been a lot of practical

27:54

tips and advice in our chat, but our chat,

27:56

if if one thing they can do after

27:58

listening to this, the the next commerce... they have to

28:00

make order to make it more authentic

28:02

or meaningful or effective, what's what's takeaway that

28:04

that people can deploy right away?

28:06

Yeah, absolutely. the So in the next

28:08

conversation you have, have, try and ask

28:10

a why question. you say like, hey, how is you

28:12

say like, And how was your weekend?

28:14

And they say, oh, good. oh And

28:16

you say, it yeah, why was it

28:19

good? Tell me about like what

28:21

happened. Try Try and ask a why

28:23

question and then listen. Listen for what

28:25

they're giving you. you. It's emotional,

28:27

social, and then

28:29

lean into that. that, you'll find

28:31

it's a a wonderful discussion. That is

28:33

is Pulitzer Prize -winning journalist

28:35

and author of of super how

28:38

to unlock the secret language of connection, Charles

28:41

Doohigg. Charles And that is it

28:43

for the show this week. this

28:45

Thanks to to producer Rose This episode

28:47

was written, edited and presented

28:49

by me, Sana by me, And thank

28:51

you for listening. for I'll catch

28:53

you next time. catch you next time. You've

28:57

been listening to an an

28:59

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