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first step today. Hi,

2:04

I'm Raj Panjabi Johnson, head of

2:06

identity content at Huff Post. I'm

2:08

Noah Michelson, director of Huff Post

2:10

personal. Welcome to Am I Doing

2:12

It Wrong? The show that explores

2:14

the all two human anxieties we

2:16

have about trying to get our

2:18

lives right. Okay, Raj, tell me

2:20

about this. How wrong are you

2:23

doing loneliness? You know, I am

2:25

such a social person, I'm socially

2:27

thirsty, I can say, yeah, I

2:29

just love being around people and

2:31

partying and hanging and rotting and

2:33

doing whatever. So I don't really

2:35

think about it. I feel like

2:37

I'm combating it every day, but

2:39

I'm starting to understand that it's

2:41

really about the quality of our

2:43

relationships and the state of mind

2:45

you go into these relationships with.

2:47

I suspect I don't know as

2:49

much as I think I know.

2:51

What about you? You know what,

2:53

we don't ever really talk about

2:55

loneliness as a culture, as a

2:57

country. I spend a lot of

2:59

my life being very alone and

3:01

through a lot of hard work

3:04

and just sort of working on

3:06

myself, I feel like I'm not

3:08

anymore. I'm really grateful for that.

3:10

But there are definitely times I

3:12

still feel it and I have

3:14

to work at it and try

3:16

and fix it. And I'm curious

3:18

to hear... Just more of a

3:20

global perspective, why this is happening

3:22

now, because I do think it's

3:24

getting worse. Yeah, it definitely is.

3:26

And we're going to dig into

3:28

it today with Dr. Ellen Lee.

3:30

She's an associate professor of psychiatry

3:32

at the University of California San

3:34

Diego, and she's a loneliness justice

3:36

warrior. So get us connected, Dr.

3:38

Lee. Yes. Dr. Lee,

3:40

we're so excited to have you here

3:43

with us. Thank you again for being

3:45

here. Thanks for having me. Happy to

3:47

talk about loneliness at any time. Yes.

3:50

Okay, let's start at the very, very

3:52

beginning. Is loneliness a physical state or

3:54

a state of mind? Like what exactly

3:56

are we dealing with when we're out

3:59

here combating the loneliness epidemic? I actually

4:01

find this question pretty interesting. It's more

4:03

complicated than you think because there's such

4:05

a strong mind-body connection, but I would

4:08

agree that loneliness is a state of

4:10

mind because it's a purely subjective experience,

4:12

solely based on how we feel. And

4:15

we define it in the research as a

4:17

distress that arises between a discrepancy

4:19

between your desired social relationships and

4:21

your perceived social relationships. So it's

4:23

both what you want, but also

4:26

what you think your relationships are

4:28

like. That's so interesting. And when

4:30

we're talking about it being an epidemic,

4:32

which is what we're hearing more and

4:34

more of, I mean, the surgeon general

4:36

is talking about everyone is sort of

4:38

talking about this, what makes it an

4:40

epidemic and how do you diagnose someone with

4:42

loneliness or what do you see clinically?

4:44

The rates are rising. So that's one

4:47

reason why we think it's an epidemic,

4:49

but I also think, you know, there's

4:51

a bit of contagation aspect to it

4:53

where we think that maybe loneliness is

4:55

catching or more and more people are becoming

4:57

lonely. know that it's catching, but there

4:59

is a sense that there's some sort

5:01

of system wide or society wide reasons

5:04

why people are feeling more isolated and

5:06

people are feeling like their social relationships

5:08

are not as strong as what they'd

5:10

like them to be. We have a

5:12

couple of ways in the research where

5:14

we'll, you know, provide these scales. Some

5:17

of the scales are pretty useful because

5:19

they won't actually use the word lonely

5:21

or loneliness. You might try to circumvent

5:23

the stigma that people may have or

5:25

the reluctance people have to admit to

5:27

feeling lonely. But I think ultimately, loneliness

5:29

is a purely subjective and personal experience.

5:31

Like, when you ask people if they

5:33

feel lonely, they might describe something slightly

5:36

different for each person. And I think

5:38

it's really important to get a sense

5:40

of, do they feel like they're lonely?

5:42

What is that experience like for each

5:44

of them? And we are as human

5:46

social animals, right? So how does social

5:48

isolation happen? Say, even if you're living

5:50

in a big city, like, how does

5:52

that feeling happen? It's actually very pronounced

5:54

in that way because there is some

5:56

speculation in the in the history of

5:58

the word loneliness. we didn't actually use

6:01

the word loneliness until the Industrial Revolution.

6:03

So not until we actually started gathering

6:05

into these cities living in these sort

6:07

of large busy communities where people were

6:09

starting to feel more isolated. And so

6:12

the thought is that actually there is

6:14

the sense of you can feel lonely

6:16

in a crowd and that may actually

6:18

be much more pronounced than being alone

6:21

by yourself like in sort of a

6:23

more like rural or pastoral or natural

6:25

kind of setting. So I think that

6:27

we are, you know, you know, social

6:29

creatures and you know, some of the

6:32

thought of why is loneliness even a

6:34

thing, like why are we evolved to

6:36

feel lonely? Some of the thought is

6:38

that loneliness used to be a trigger,

6:41

like a canary and a coal mine.

6:43

So if you're feeling lonely, you need

6:45

to go find someone because people are

6:47

important for survival or for protection. And

6:49

now it's sort of become something where

6:52

loneliness has big of a persistent problem

6:54

for people where people feel lonely and

6:56

they feel isolated and they feel maybe

6:58

more sensitive to social rejection and then

7:00

they actually end up withdrawing. They actually

7:03

try to stay away from people to

7:05

avoid feeling rejected socially and they sort

7:07

of perpetuate this loneliness is something more

7:09

significant persistent over time. Dr. Ellen when

7:12

do we start seeing loneliness as an

7:14

epidemic. How recent is this? And what

7:16

are some of the reasons that you

7:18

think this has happened? I mean, one

7:20

of the things I'm thinking about is

7:23

just that not only are maybe people

7:25

not socializing as much, or reasons we'll

7:27

probably get into for that, but also

7:29

the quality of their connections are not

7:32

as strong as they were before. So

7:34

dig into that. When did we start

7:36

seeing this? And what are some of

7:38

the reasons that we think we're seeing

7:40

it now? It's really interesting because like

7:43

the neurobiology of loneliness research really came

7:45

up over the last I would say

7:47

like 50 years or so where people

7:49

are becoming more and more interested in

7:51

sort of the science of loneliness. But

7:54

there's also a thought that we've been

7:56

kind of moving that way even before

7:58

COVID, even before technology and social media

8:00

really started picking up. So people are

8:03

starting to live alone more. You know,

8:05

maybe marriage rates have been dropping, divorce

8:07

rates have been increasing, people are having

8:09

fewer and fewer children, so they are

8:11

more isolated. But we're also seeing people

8:14

become less involved in community organizations, religious

8:16

organizations. And then one big factor for

8:18

loneliness is aging. So we'll have to

8:20

see a growing aging population. So over

8:23

time we have been seeing people's social

8:25

networks decreasing over time. And then I

8:27

think with technology, there is this. ability

8:29

to connect. So it's kind of a

8:31

double-edged sword. You can connect more easily,

8:34

but you could also perpetuate maybe a

8:36

social connection that doesn't feel as strong

8:38

or as meaningful. So it's not the

8:40

same as being friends with someone in

8:42

person versus being friends purely online. And

8:45

the quality of that relationship may not

8:47

be as fulfilling. So there's also the

8:49

thought that maybe social media makes yourself

8:51

comfortable. pair or makes you feel left

8:54

out. And so maybe there are other

8:56

things about feeling sort of more social

8:58

rejected on social media. So I think

9:00

there's a lot of different reasons why

9:02

we as a society are becoming more

9:05

lonely. It's been pretty natural to feel

9:07

lonely when key milestones in your life,

9:09

like you move out of the house,

9:11

you go to college, totally cut off

9:14

from your usual social networks, your social

9:16

supports. You know, you get divorced, you

9:18

retire from work, so a lot of

9:20

different aspects of your network are changing.

9:22

You have an empty nest, kids grow

9:25

up, you know, all sorts of, you

9:27

know, different life milestones can also make

9:29

you feel pretty lonely too. You know,

9:31

it's interesting, I met this man, maybe

9:33

15 years ago, his name is Jeff,

9:36

and he was the self-proclaimed foot fetish

9:38

king of Hollywood Florida. I'm excited to

9:40

see where this goes. Yeah. And I

9:42

met him online. And he told me,

9:45

he was probably 50 or 60, this

9:47

was 15 years ago, and he said

9:49

when he was growing up, he didn't

9:51

know anyone who was gay, and he

9:53

especially didn't know anyone who had a

9:56

foot fetish. and he felt so alone

9:58

and then the internet came along and

10:00

he found these message boards of all

10:02

these other people that were just like

10:05

him and all of a sudden he

10:07

didn't feel so alone. But even though

10:09

he met all these other people and

10:11

it was really affirming and at least

10:13

he knew he wasn't you know broken

10:16

or deviant because there were other people

10:18

who felt this way, they didn't live

10:20

near him. And so he had a

10:22

community in some ways, at least he

10:24

was sort of felt like he... was

10:27

legitimate in his desires. But he couldn't

10:29

go and meet these people. He couldn't

10:31

really socially interact with them. They were

10:33

all over the world. And so it's

10:36

like you said, Dr. Lee, this idea

10:38

of like technology and social networks. I

10:40

think it is a double-edged sword. I

10:42

think we can be so much more

10:44

connected and find people who are like

10:47

us now. But it doesn't mean that

10:49

those connections actually are as strong or

10:51

as true or as meaningful as we

10:53

want them to be because they actually

10:56

aren't in real life. belongingness though and

10:58

I think the long is so important

11:00

you know especially when you're from a

11:02

group that is just are marginalized or

11:04

you know not really popular it's hard

11:07

to find people who are like you

11:09

or understand you and your experiences and

11:11

and I think that cultivating belongingness is

11:13

actually really really important to combat or

11:15

even prevent loneliness and you know there've

11:18

been some studies trying to improve loneliness

11:20

and you know let's create like a

11:22

self-help group or let's create a support

11:24

group online and the ones where people

11:27

feel that sort of shared common identity

11:29

that's a little bit more you know,

11:31

where they just sort of an all-comer

11:33

sort of support group, you know, so

11:35

I'm happy in one way that they're

11:38

able to find some way to connect,

11:40

but also it is hard when you

11:42

can't actually have in-person connections. The in-person

11:44

stuff, I have to say, we had

11:47

another expert on your Anna Goldfarb for

11:49

the friendship episode who was talking about

11:51

how important is to like sit with

11:53

someone, and I never really thought about

11:55

that, but it is so much different.

11:58

touching them or holding their hand the

12:00

quality of that connection is so different,

12:02

and that leads to my next question.

12:04

I know you're an expert in aging

12:06

and loneliness, and you mentioned this a

12:09

little bit, but do people over the

12:11

age of 60, 65 naturally isolate? I'm

12:13

thinking of the old man and up

12:15

who didn't want to be bothered and

12:17

floated away, like, this is a

12:20

stereotype, but does that naturally happen?

12:22

Do you kind of want to be

12:24

like, leave me the F alone? Yeah, I mean,

12:26

I think that there's a lot of risks.

12:28

for loneliness as we age. And, you

12:30

know, we think that it's sort of

12:33

a W-shaped curve. So like people

12:35

are most lonely in their young

12:37

20s, mid-50s, and then sort of

12:39

the late 80s, the end of

12:41

life. And so I do think

12:43

you're more likely to be lonely.

12:45

Let's take the character and up. So

12:47

we lost his partner. So a lot

12:50

of people lose friends and families to

12:52

health reasons or death and people may

12:54

move away. They may go to retirement

12:57

homes or retirement communities or assisted living

12:59

or nursing homes. They don't have the

13:01

same relationships. They've decreased mobility and physical

13:04

health issues. They can't engage in some

13:06

of their social activities. You know, children

13:08

may move away or it's very possible

13:11

to get. more lonely as you get

13:13

older because so many things are changing

13:15

all these sort of milestone

13:17

sort of experiences are changing. You're

13:19

often retired so you don't have work

13:22

or that kind of social network. Let's

13:24

take a quick break and we'll be

13:26

right back. This show is sponsored by

13:28

Better Help. Raj, we talk about

13:30

relationships a lot on this show. What

13:33

are some of your relationship green flags

13:35

that you look for in people? Love

13:37

that. Okay, for me, green flags would

13:39

be loves to eat, loves to cook. Not

13:41

into football and understands what

13:43

sex positive is. I will co-sign all

13:45

of that But the truth is we

13:48

usually hear about red flags We should

13:50

avoid in people or in other words

13:52

what they're doing wrong But what would

13:54

happen if we focus more on looking

13:56

for green flags and friends and partners

13:58

aka what they're doing? If My

16:39

dad works in B2B marketing. He came

16:41

by my school for career day and

16:43

said he was a big ROAS man.

16:45

Then he told everyone how much he

16:47

loved calculating his return on ad spend.

16:50

My friend's still laughing me to this day. Not

16:53

everyone gets B2B, but with LinkedIn, you'll be

16:55

able to reach people who do. Get $100

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Terms and conditions apply. LinkedIn,

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the place to be, to be. Does

17:22

culture play a part because I

17:24

feel like some communities are more

17:26

collectivist versus individualistic? Yeah? The research

17:28

is definitely mixed, but you would

17:30

think collectivist society is ones where

17:32

they're sort of more reliant on

17:34

each other and that's sort of

17:36

like beyond just the family unit

17:38

or community level, people would be

17:41

less lonely, but actually people are

17:43

more lonely. Wow. Yeah, and I

17:45

think part of it is the

17:47

expectation of your social support network

17:49

is higher in those communities. On

17:51

the other hand, there are more

17:53

safeguards, right, where people who are

17:55

from these sort of collective societies

17:57

are more likely to have more

17:59

social supports or more social. So

18:02

maybe even though the loneliness is

18:04

higher, the way it impacts people

18:06

is somewhat different. Like maybe if

18:08

you move, for example, one thing

18:10

that people study is people who

18:12

move from sort of a collectivist

18:14

society and move to an individualistic

18:16

society. Like, for example, America is

18:19

thought to be quite individualistic.

18:21

Yes. them a lot of like Western Europe

18:23

and so people who move from you know

18:25

more like Asian countries or places where

18:28

they are sort of more reliant on

18:30

each other they may really struggle in

18:32

the country but if they're able to

18:35

find those relationships and those community ties

18:37

and people with like a shared background

18:39

then often they can buffer a lot of the

18:42

issues that you know might arise from being

18:44

more isolated especially in language.

18:46

Okay, so it's like a quality versus

18:48

quantity, like quality of these relationships

18:51

is more important than having

18:53

like a ton of them. It's probably a

18:55

factor of both. It's probably having both, you

18:57

know, because, you know, we sort of disregard

19:00

these sort of very weak social

19:02

ties, you know, like the acquaintance you see

19:04

when you're dropping off your kid at school

19:06

or like, you know, the person who opens

19:08

the door for you at Starbucks and

19:10

you say thank you. you know,

19:12

minuscule social interactions can actually be

19:14

pretty meaningful. And so we notice

19:17

people lost a lot of these

19:19

during COVID. Yes. And it actually

19:21

matters, you know, these little sort

19:23

of interactions, these little pieces of

19:25

being part of this. larger humanities

19:27

really important actually. I really that

19:29

was the part that I struggled

19:32

with really really like a lot during

19:34

the pandemic those stranger interactions I love oh

19:36

I love that sweater where did you get

19:38

it like I'm a big you know certified

19:40

yapper as they say and I really miss

19:43

that part during the pandemic I felt the

19:45

same way I would during the pandemic I was

19:47

living alone and so I didn't have a partner

19:49

and I so I spent you know almost a

19:52

year alone I remember going to the dentist for

19:54

the first time It was the first time someone

19:56

had touched me in like six or seven months

19:58

and I almost started. Yeah, of course. Getting

20:01

my teeth cleaned. It was ridiculous. But

20:03

it was so, it was the impact

20:05

of that. The other thing I'm thinking

20:07

about Dr. Lee is just how easy

20:09

I think it is to, for your

20:11

situation to change and for you to

20:13

sort of encounter loneliness. I'm even thinking

20:16

about like myself, you know, I have

20:18

a partner, but if I broke up.

20:20

I would not have that connection. Most

20:22

of my good friends in the last

20:24

five years have left New York. I

20:26

have some friends in New York now,

20:28

but a lot of them left, like

20:31

a lot of people do, because New

20:33

York is expensive and annoying. Most of

20:35

my best friends don't live in the

20:37

city anymore. And, you know, we were

20:39

working from home up until recently, and

20:41

so I think really quickly, even if

20:43

you are a social person, someone who

20:46

has a lot of connections. You can

20:48

find yourself feeling really lonely. I also

20:50

have friends. They're married. They move for

20:52

a job to a city where neither

20:54

of them knows anyone. They don't have

20:56

any friends all of a sudden. All

20:58

they have is their partner. And you

21:00

know, it's a lot of pressure. And

21:03

I don't think that that person can

21:05

sort of clown all of your loneliness

21:07

either. You need these other people. So

21:09

I guess. What do you think about

21:11

that Dr. Lee? The fact that we're

21:13

all maybe closer to loneliness than we

21:15

think are, you know, I'm sure there

21:18

are people who are actively lonely, but

21:20

it's not that far away. You know,

21:22

what you're hitting on is sort of,

21:24

there is a loneliness scale that divides

21:26

loneliness to two aspects. So one is

21:28

this emotional moment, so having someone you

21:30

feel intimately close to your close confidence.

21:33

And the other part is like social

21:35

loneliness. like, you know, like someone to

21:37

go bowling with, you know, someone to

21:39

like do things with. And I feel

21:41

like it's hard for your partner to

21:43

manage both of those roles. And so

21:45

I do think it is really easy

21:48

for us to sort of discount some

21:50

relationships or, you know, just, you know,

21:52

we We forget how hard it is

21:54

to start over. I always joke. I

21:56

hate moving because you have to find

21:58

a new grocery store, a new dentist,

22:00

a new plumber, all those things. But

22:02

you really also to build that community

22:05

network. And it's challenging to find a

22:07

point where you feel like you belong

22:09

again. And sometimes it could take years.

22:11

to build that up. One thing I

22:13

think people also forget though is how

22:15

much work it is to maintain the

22:17

relationships you already have. So even though

22:20

people have moved away, I'm sure you

22:22

do a lot of reaching back out

22:24

and trying to maintain those relationships and

22:26

it does work. You know, it's not

22:28

like a cruise control. Like some people

22:30

say, oh, you can just dip back

22:32

in and it's like you never left,

22:35

but you also have to be able

22:37

to manage conflict and even confront people

22:39

when... There's something to work out because

22:41

you don't want to let things go

22:43

and you don't want to just let

22:45

the relationship sort of wither if there's

22:47

a misunderstanding or something you guys need

22:50

to work through. Even really healthy ones,

22:52

I don't know if you all do

22:54

this, but I schedule a lot of

22:56

my friendships now. I mean, I have

22:58

standing drinks with some friends every Friday

23:00

night and I look forward to that.

23:02

But just having a busy active life

23:04

with work and everything else, if you

23:07

don't make those. They almost feel like

23:09

appointments. Yeah. But I think they're so

23:11

important and I don't want to have

23:13

to schedule all my friendships. I want

23:15

some of it to be organic and

23:17

just sort of to happen. But if

23:19

you don't, like you were just saying,

23:22

if you don't tend to the relationships

23:24

you have, there's so many reasons to

23:26

not show up to a party, to

23:28

not call someone to have dinner and

23:30

that evaporates really quickly too. Yeah. Having

23:32

a nuclear family is not the only

23:34

way to have a family. So these

23:37

appointments, these like friendship appointments are with

23:39

our like existing family and friends is

23:41

really important. But you're right, Dr. Leah

23:43

takes work. Yeah, you're making it a

23:45

priority, you know, and I think scheduling

23:47

it is actually showing how much of

23:49

priority you are making it. You're not

23:52

just gonna, you know, leaving it to

23:54

chances great, except people are so busy

23:56

and so occupied, I think people work

23:58

beyond. the eight-hour workday. So you have

24:00

to do things to make sure people

24:02

have time for each other, you know.

24:04

Can you tell me a little bit

24:06

about what the physical repercussions of loneliness

24:09

are? I know I've read this long

24:11

report from the... Vic Murphy, like it's

24:13

terrifying, like it's compared, being, feeling lonely

24:15

is compared to like smoking a bunch

24:17

of cigarettes every day. And I'm like,

24:19

holy crap, like, what can physically happen

24:21

to us? Yeah, basically, yeah, and the

24:24

quote he has is pretty hard hitting.

24:26

It says, you know, the mortality rate

24:28

related to loneliness is worse than obesity

24:30

or smoking 15 cigarettes a day, which

24:32

is a lot of cigarettes. You know,

24:34

we still tell people, please don't smoke

24:36

as well, but it's also an idea

24:39

to watch your social functioning and how

24:41

important that is. We understand that loneliness

24:43

can actually increase the levels of stress

24:45

hormone, cortisol, and our blood. We know

24:47

that people who are lonely have sort

24:49

of dysregulated or weaker immune responses. So

24:51

for example, if you're more lonely, you

24:54

would have a lower response to like

24:56

a back seat. an immune reaction. People

24:58

are lonely, also have higher levels of

25:00

inflammation, so loneliness is linked with a

25:02

lot of cardiovascular disease, metabolic syndrome, sedentary

25:04

lifestyles, lots of negative things, and outcomes

25:06

are associated with loneliness, but you know,

25:08

both lifestyle and loneliness itself. That's terrifying.

25:11

I know. I would love for you

25:13

to talk to us about loneliness for

25:15

younger people. I read this crazy article

25:17

and it stayed with me. This was

25:19

probably eight or ten years ago. It

25:21

was definitely before the pandemic. And they

25:23

asked kids who were in high school

25:26

what they'd done during summer vacation. And

25:28

they told the reporter, you know, well,

25:30

we just hung out. And they were

25:32

like, well, no, like, did you guys

25:34

play video games? Did you go to

25:36

the mall? And they were like, oh,

25:38

no, no, no. Like, I was in

25:41

my room and I texted my friends

25:43

and they were in their rooms and

25:45

they texted me back. And that was

25:47

so, and I am turning into one

25:49

of those people who's like, well, when

25:51

I was a kid, like I know

25:53

I sound like such a grandpa, but

25:56

that stopped me in my tracks the

25:58

fact that. that people are feeling more

26:00

lonely than they used to. So kids

26:02

are definitely seeming to be more on

26:04

their phones. Maybe they have less social

26:06

interactions, but maybe also have less social

26:08

skill building because they do so many

26:10

things virtually. And like you said, it

26:13

seems like there's less free time for

26:15

kids these days just to hang out

26:17

or, you know, like we have the

26:19

same sort of joke where, you know,

26:21

you would just leave the house in

26:23

the morning on your bikes and would

26:25

just come to dinner, right? would be

26:28

free to roam the neighborhood. And we're

26:30

getting more worried, I feel like, and

26:32

I should put a big disclaimer, I'm

26:34

a geriatric psychiatrist, I don't treat children

26:36

on purpose, but you know, kids are

26:38

more scheduled, they're given less freedom or

26:40

less time for creativity, and I do

26:43

think it's also impacting their social. interactions

26:45

and the quality of their social relationships.

26:47

So I think it's I think it's

26:49

a big problem. And how we address

26:51

that has to be more systemic. We

26:53

have to think about it at schools,

26:55

sort of at earlier levels, when they

26:58

go to college. How does that impact

27:00

them? And then get them ready for

27:02

adulthood and what that's going to be

27:04

like, especially if they're going to be

27:06

in this hybrid world, you know, of

27:08

work and virtual remote work, things like

27:10

that. We have one more doom and

27:12

gloom before we start fixing our lives.

27:15

What is going on with loneliness and

27:17

straight men? No one read somewhere that

27:19

one in five men have no close

27:21

friends, which is devastating. What is happening

27:23

here? It seems really scary. Not exactly

27:25

sure why things are worse than they

27:27

used to be. Because when you look

27:30

at the reasons behind it, it seems

27:32

like it's all related to traditional masculinity,

27:34

like men are allowed to be honorable,

27:36

men are not allowed to ask for

27:38

help. And you need that in order

27:40

to, you need that in order to

27:42

build a relationship. You need to sort

27:45

of open yourself up a little bit

27:47

to build strong relationships. I'm not sure

27:49

if it's because things are virtual. And

27:51

so maybe it's harder to build those

27:53

things, but. But it does seem that

27:55

men have fewer friends than ever before

27:57

and their social networks are really small.

28:00

And the thing that worries

28:02

me is if they're relying only

28:04

on a partner and a

28:06

relationship with Benz, what do you do,

28:08

right? Yeah, I had a friend and she

28:10

just told me that her partner, who was

28:12

a straight guy, one of his

28:14

friends was going through a breakup, I think,

28:16

or someone died and he said to her, I

28:18

don't know what I should do. And she

28:20

said, well, call him and ask him if

28:22

he wants to talk about it. And he said,

28:24

okay. And then she could overhear them in the other

28:26

room. And they talked for like an hour and

28:28

it was great. But she was like, he didn't even

28:30

know how to take that first step or what to

28:32

do. And I was like, yeah, that is really sad.

28:35

Yeah. I think it's like that

28:37

traditional, like, you know, cockroach of

28:39

masculinity that you're like not supposed to

28:41

even appear vulnerable. Yeah. It needs

28:43

to go away. Let's take a

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30:32

Welcome back to am I doing it

30:34

wrong? How can we prevent and sue the

30:37

loneliness? Like just, I'm thinking about

30:39

building community the way Noah

30:41

and I have our friendship appointments,

30:43

but like tell us what we should be

30:45

doing because we are one degree away

30:47

from loneliness. Yeah, I think having

30:49

a better social network is definitely part

30:52

of it, but the other side of

30:54

it is. trying to understand what it

30:56

is you want. Like I said, there's

30:58

sort of this multiple layer definition of

31:00

loneliness. Like what do you perceive? What

31:03

do you want? And I think part

31:05

of it is trying to make social

31:07

interactions less stressful. Like take away

31:10

the barriers that would make you less

31:12

likely to reach out. So one big

31:14

one is social rejection. So fear of

31:16

being rejected socially. So people will

31:18

say, well, what if I, you know,

31:21

try to reach out or And then

31:23

they say no. Like one example is

31:25

if you're already feeling lonely, you're going

31:28

to be more likely to think that

31:30

you're being rejected. So if you're feeling

31:32

lonely and you walk into work and

31:34

you say hi to someone and they

31:37

don't respond, they may be more likely

31:39

if you're lonely, you might be more

31:41

likely, you might be more likely to

31:44

think, oh my goodness, they don't like

31:46

me, they're upset with me, what did

31:48

I do? Finding ways to reframe those

31:50

sort of what we call negative

31:53

social conditions can be really helpful

31:55

to sort of rethink about how

31:57

to sort of prime yourself for

31:59

a good social interaction. One other

32:01

big one is altruism. So reaching out

32:03

to help someone is you're sort of

32:05

automatically setting yourself up to have a

32:07

positive social interaction if you're reaching out

32:09

in sort of like a helpful way

32:11

or if you're offering to help someone.

32:13

And so that can also be a

32:15

very positive way to start, but it

32:18

also is really fulfilling, feel quite a

32:20

very meaningful and purposeful to try to

32:22

help people. So things like that can

32:24

be a good other way to start.

32:26

You know, if it's beyond just... I

32:28

don't have enough friends and I just

32:30

need more friends and things will be

32:32

better. It might be something more sort

32:34

of underlying, something more mechanistic behind it.

32:36

I love that. I think the altruism

32:39

thing is very underrated and it's also.

32:41

This is weird to say, but it's

32:43

like very self-serving also. Like I find

32:45

my favorite way to help people is

32:47

to like come over and play with

32:49

their kids, my friends who have kids,

32:51

and it is so joyful for me.

32:53

No one says no to me because

32:55

they're like, God, please, like one hour

32:57

away. Like absolutely, like, some of my

32:59

friends have little kids. We have the

33:02

best time. We're playing Hulk. I'm a

33:04

big kid. I helped. I feel better.

33:06

It's like, figure out what you have

33:08

to offer what you have to offer,

33:10

right. Like, what do we have to

33:12

offer? Yeah, I love that. I also

33:14

do love the idea of sort of

33:16

splitting this into two different thought. Categories.

33:18

Yeah, like one is the practical. So

33:20

how are you going to find more

33:22

people, more connections? Are you going to

33:25

volunteer? Are you going to join a

33:27

book club? Are you just going to

33:29

put yourself in places that you're going

33:31

to maybe have more opportunities? And then

33:33

the second, like you were saying, Dr.

33:35

Lee, too, is just more of a...

33:37

the way you're thinking about things, the

33:39

way that you're approaching the world, the

33:41

way you're thinking about your connections too,

33:43

that also having that foundation seems really

33:45

important. Yeah. Changing the way that you

33:48

think about your interactions will change the

33:50

way that you have your interactions probably.

33:52

When you have your interactions, when it

33:54

comes to combating loneliness as we get

33:56

older, do you have thoughts about that?

33:58

Is it going to be different when

34:00

you're 20 versus when you're 60? I

34:02

usually say, have a diverse of a

34:04

social network as you can. So it's

34:06

kind of like, put all your equipment

34:08

basket, make sure you have friends from

34:11

work, friends from a lot of these

34:13

classes if you're into that, you know,

34:15

friends from book club, you know, and

34:17

trying to have as, you know, many

34:19

different ways for your social outlets to

34:21

happen are important, and then cultivating all

34:23

of those, like, you know, you have

34:25

to nurture it. Let them fester and

34:27

let the relationship wither. I think in

34:29

the 60s, one thing that becomes tough

34:31

is Maybe there are fewer natural opportunities,

34:34

right? Like the 20s, you go to

34:36

work, you know, if everyone's single, everyone's

34:38

still looking for more friends, people have

34:40

more time. And when you're 60s, people

34:42

may have a lot of sort of

34:44

competing obligations. People often say it's harder

34:46

to make friends after you're 30 or

34:48

40, that age is changing. You know,

34:50

people are already in relationships, they have

34:52

family obligations, they're busier, so you might

34:55

have to schedule things more. So I

34:57

would say. Probably not. You might just

34:59

be looking for slightly different things or,

35:01

you know, different types of companionship or

35:03

relationships when you're in your 60s versus

35:05

in your 20s. You went to more

35:07

folks done romantic with partnerships in your

35:09

20s. But I would just say the

35:11

same, the same types of things would

35:13

probably help. Yeah, that's kind of cool.

35:15

That's humbling. It is. I'm thinking even,

35:18

you know, two weeks ago, there is

35:20

a woman who works in our office

35:22

and I see her all the time

35:24

and We would sort of say hello

35:26

to each other because we always see

35:28

each other, but I've never asked her

35:30

what her name is. I've never asked

35:32

her anything about herself. And two weeks

35:34

ago, I had to say to myself,

35:36

Noah, introduce yourself and like, let's make

35:38

this be a real connection. And I

35:41

did. And we had a really great

35:43

chat. And now when I see her,

35:45

it's even stronger. I love that. But

35:47

it's not easy for me. And I

35:49

think of myself as a social person.

35:51

Growing up I was not, you know,

35:53

I think we've talked to the show

35:55

before, like I was really bullied, and

35:57

so I was super introverted and I

35:59

was... scared to talk to people because

36:01

of what would happen to me. I

36:04

had to sort of cultivate my relationship

36:06

with the outside world. But even today

36:08

as a 46 year old man who

36:10

feels very outgoing, there are still times

36:12

and I'm like. I have to literally

36:14

talk myself into doing it, and

36:16

I'm always happy that I did. Yes. You

36:18

know? Yeah. And you're such a lovely

36:21

person to know. Like I feel like

36:23

you're doing everyone, you know, a solid

36:25

by being like... I try. But I

36:27

think even if it's someone like me

36:29

who is naturally outgoing at this point,

36:31

there are so many people who are

36:33

not. And so I get why it's

36:35

hard for people to make these connections.

36:37

Just saying hello to someone when they

36:39

pass by you at you at the

36:42

office. And even if it's scary, it's

36:44

like if you see someone go and

36:46

say hello to them and see what

36:48

happens. I'm like feeling emotional right now

36:50

because I like I totally understand the

36:52

courage and like what it takes to

36:54

do that. I feel like at our

36:57

office too, we work in the same

36:59

office, I have said hi to people

37:01

and now it gets to the point

37:03

where like people that we don't work

37:05

with, there's hugs. Like I get hugs

37:08

when I come to the office.

37:10

Like I'm very emotionally thirsty Dr.

37:12

Lee, like a hug for me

37:14

goes a long way. You know

37:16

there's like that oxytocin or like

37:18

whatever that really tight platonic hug

37:20

that's like, I think there's a

37:22

thing about like take the first

37:24

step. Yeah. The science backs you

37:26

up actually. If you get a

37:28

daily embrace it actually mediates the

37:31

relationship between our moderate relationship between

37:33

loneliness and mood. So you know hugs

37:35

are hugs are healthy. You know, so

37:37

good. Touch affectionate touch. These are all

37:40

important things for us. And I have

37:42

to say I've been seeing and speaking

37:44

of hugs. I've been seeing these

37:46

really cool compounds on Instagram where

37:49

people in their 40's and 50s and

37:51

50s are like buying homes in the same

37:53

area and living on like family and friend

37:55

compounds. So there's like, they're able

37:57

to get like the physical relationship.

37:59

like it's sometimes like a sister and

38:02

then like the sister-in-law and their partner

38:04

and somebody's kid and these are happening

38:06

more this is actually Calvin my husband's

38:08

dream come true he wants to buy

38:10

land yeah and have friends and family

38:13

live on it which I used to

38:15

laugh at him I'm like but now

38:17

I'm like is that is that the

38:19

way to really just have a beautiful

38:21

future and I have to say my

38:24

parents live in a community with their

38:26

friends like they just all moved in

38:28

in the same we call it the

38:30

old brown dorms because they're like South

38:32

Asian and I love it. I mean,

38:35

I think that it's just going. What

38:37

you're doing is you're doing. I mean,

38:39

she has billions of dollars so she

38:41

can do this. It's a little different.

38:44

But she bought like, you know, 12

38:46

houses and the entire neighborhood is just

38:48

all of her friends and family and

38:50

they all live in this neighborhood. I

38:52

think it can be done on a

38:55

budget. Dr. Lee, like, isn't this like

38:57

a kind of utopian future? Like, can

38:59

we do this? some culture within the

39:01

US, which is this individual. And I

39:03

think you're right, it does work. They're

39:06

actually like culturally themed retirement communities for

39:08

older adults. Like I remember seeing one

39:10

in Southern California, that's specifically for Chinese

39:12

American older adults. So that there's no

39:14

language barrier. There's no cultural barrier. And

39:17

I think it's a great idea. You

39:19

know, I think the idea is you

39:21

can go beyond just sort of your

39:23

nuclear family and age together. have some

39:25

intergenerational relationships? I think it's great. Yeah,

39:28

they have a queer one in Philadelphia

39:30

too, especially again, like so many queer

39:32

adults when they age too. They don't

39:34

have partners, they don't have kids, they

39:36

have a lot less of a network

39:39

or a safety net. And so having

39:41

these community homes for people who are

39:43

queer who've had similar, you know, came

39:45

up at a time when they faced

39:47

homophobia or transphobia and they have similar

39:50

experiences. Really healthy and of course the

39:52

Golden Girls. I mean the Golden Girls

39:54

did it before any of us and

39:56

we know how well that turned out.

39:58

They're the template. Yeah. They are the

40:01

icons of everything. Will you talk to

40:03

us a little bit about how a

40:05

gratitude practice can help us with loneliness?

40:07

I was hearing about this. Sounds really

40:09

interesting. Yeah, and I think it sort

40:12

of goes back to sort of like

40:14

it said the underlying mechanisms of loneliness.

40:16

So if we think about gratitude, it's

40:18

about being in the moment. It's about

40:21

recognizing sort of the things that are

40:23

going well in your life and the

40:25

things that you should think beyond yourself.

40:27

I always think of gratitude as being

40:29

a way of sort of being. self-transcendental.

40:32

So you're not just focusing on your

40:34

personal pain, your personal issues, you're looking

40:36

beyond and you're seeing like all the

40:38

sort of the bigger good things in

40:40

the world. So I think it's great

40:43

because it it really fosters self-compassion, which

40:45

I think is like one huge antidote

40:47

to loneliness, is finding ways to sort

40:49

of stay in the moment, be appreciative

40:51

of sort of the larger picture of

40:54

humanity, and it makes a huge difference.

40:56

It really sort of resets your thinking

40:58

of social relationships in yourself. I love

41:00

gratitude practices, but even more so. I

41:02

have some friends. I don't do this.

41:05

I have one. I'm thinking about the

41:07

people in my life that I'm grateful

41:09

for. And by thinking about those people,

41:11

I feel more connected to them and

41:13

more excited to them or see them.

41:16

So it does seem like it just

41:18

all sort of works together. I love

41:20

gratitude practices, but even more so. I

41:22

have some friends. I don't do this.

41:24

I have one friend in particular Christie,

41:27

where she'll like text and be like...

41:29

Thanks for our friendship. I really love

41:31

hanging out with you or like I

41:33

had such a good time with you

41:35

and I'm like Oh my God, what

41:38

a beautiful thing to vocalize. Yeah, that's

41:40

very sweet. I want to do it

41:42

more. Just letting the people you're thinking

41:44

about them. You know, maybe you don't

41:46

have to say exactly that, but I

41:49

think popping up, we talked about this

41:51

when I do the friend text roulette,

41:53

or someone, Dr. Lee, or someone, Dr.

41:55

Lee, sometimes, if it's been three or

41:58

six months, I'll just look in my

42:00

phone, someone I haven't talked to in

42:02

that I like really. actually grinds my

42:04

gears in my culture. there's a big

42:06

emphasis on partnering up. Like your self-worth,

42:09

especially as a woman for Indian-American women,

42:11

Indian women, is like diminishes if you

42:13

don't have a partner by like 30.

42:15

It's so terrible. So like, do we

42:17

need a partner? to feel less isolated

42:20

scientifically. So a lot of loneliness research

42:22

that is like based on huge populations,

42:24

it's very shallow. We always say it's

42:26

like a very shallow, like you can't

42:28

really phenotype the people in it that

42:31

well. And so often people rely on

42:33

like marital status as one very quick

42:35

way to assess if you're with somebody

42:37

or with your if you're not. But

42:39

well, number one, that's not the only

42:42

way to fulfill emotional intimacy and the

42:44

things that you know really stave up

42:46

loneliness. So I don't think that's a

42:48

great. proxy and it tends to sort

42:50

of oversimplify how people have social relations.

42:53

But I also think that what you're

42:55

missing is that, you know, there's, if

42:57

we think of social connection, we think

42:59

about it in three buckets, the structural,

43:01

where you start with just do you

43:04

have people in your life? Functional is

43:06

like how you perceive their support or

43:08

whether or not you feel lonely. And

43:10

the last bucket is the quality of

43:12

the relationship. You may be an origin,

43:15

it may not be that positive for

43:17

you. You know, lonely in a crowd,

43:19

you feel lonely in a marriage. You

43:21

know, there are a lot of ways

43:23

that a relationship can actually have a

43:26

lot of negatives for that person. So

43:28

I think you have to think about,

43:30

it's really, like I said, quality, maybe

43:32

quantity for some people, but it doesn't

43:35

seem to matter what nature it is.

43:37

So as long as you're getting your

43:39

needs in that, that's kind of the

43:41

most important part of social functioning. That's

43:43

what I thought, and I love that.

43:46

people in relationships that are not good.

43:48

And they're definitely feeling lonely, you know,

43:50

maybe maybe more lonely. They come home

43:52

to a house that they don't feel

43:54

like welcome in or that they're not

43:57

happy to be in. I think social

43:59

constructs provide a lot of illusions for

44:01

us. Yeah. Yeah. When Dr. Lee should

44:03

someone seek help outside of, you know,

44:05

just talking to a friend, when should

44:08

they see a professional if they're dealing

44:10

with these kind of Yeah, I mean,

44:12

I'm such a huge proponent of psychotherapy.

44:14

I would tell most people that psychotherapy

44:16

could be helpful for them in some

44:19

context. But I do think what's really

44:21

important, though, is like depression and loneliness

44:23

are so strongly connected. They're definitely distinct.

44:25

You can be stressed, lonely. It's pretty

44:27

rare, but you can be lonely and

44:30

not depressed. But I do think that

44:32

you can be lonely in that. lead

44:34

to depression in the light. So I

44:36

always tell folks, if things are trying

44:38

to affect your functioning, if you're starting

44:41

to feel like, you know, any of

44:43

your, you know, metabolic issues are happening,

44:45

like you're not eating well, you're not

44:47

sleeping well, you know, you're feeling more

44:49

tired, any of those things are important.

44:52

sort of warning signals that maybe it's

44:54

starting to move into more of a

44:56

depression picture. But I always think therapy

44:58

for all, really. I really think so

45:00

many people could benefit from having sort

45:03

of a professional to talk to, work

45:05

out things, or even just help you

45:07

strategize where to go. And their short-term

45:09

therapies, there are people in therapy for

45:12

a long time. And, you know, there's

45:14

so many different modalities, so many things

45:16

could work for each person. I hear

45:18

preaching to the choir. We love therapy

45:20

in whatever form it comes in. I'm

45:23

in therapy more times than not. Yeah.

45:25

This is my break from therapy, the

45:27

podcast, and it's also therapy weirdly. Unless

45:29

you have any more, Noah, I would

45:31

love to close with this one. What's

45:34

one thing you'd ask everyone to add

45:36

to their lives to feel more connected

45:38

to others? That's a good one. Yeah,

45:40

so I alluded to this a little

45:42

bit earlier, but I think it's really

45:45

about cultivating self-compassion. I think self-compassion is,

45:47

like I said, a secret antidote to

45:49

loneliness. Self-compassion is three different things. It's

45:51

being kinder to yourself. So self-compassion is

45:53

three different things. It's being kinder to

45:56

yourself, so self-kindness instead of suffering. But

45:58

you know, we're all part of the

46:00

bigger picture, and you know, you're sort

46:02

of like... against her. self transcendental, you're

46:04

part of the bigger thing. And then

46:07

the last part is really about being

46:09

mindful, like staying in the moment, you

46:11

know, feeling sort of connected to what's

46:13

happening in the moment. And I think

46:15

those three elements, if you can achieve

46:18

that, it'll make things so much easier

46:20

for you, both interactions with other people,

46:22

but also within yourself, I think it

46:24

makes it easier for you to navigate

46:26

situations where you are working with other

46:29

people. I think self-compassion is kind of

46:31

the key. If we could cultivate that

46:33

throughout our entire society, I think people

46:35

would feel a lot less lonely, they'd

46:37

be better partners, better friends. I love

46:40

that. I love that. It's a common

46:42

thread, I feel like, with a lot

46:44

of... We talk about a lot, and

46:46

I think it's easier said than done.

46:49

There's a reason why we aren't nicer

46:51

to ourselves. Yeah. It's only up from

46:53

there. And I think supporting your friends

46:55

and being like, be kinder to yourself.

46:57

You know, that network, yeah, but I

47:00

think I'm just even deflecting even more,

47:02

like we have to figure it out

47:04

to do it ourselves. Yeah. Yeah. This

47:06

is a good start though. Dr. Lee.

47:08

Thank you so much for spending the

47:11

time. I think just talking about this

47:13

for 45 minutes is a great place

47:15

to begin. I love it. This was

47:17

so helpful. Thanks for having me. This

47:19

is really fun. It's

47:24

time for Better and Five. These are

47:26

your top five takeaways from this episode.

47:29

Number one, fighting loneliness isn't just about

47:31

surrounding yourself with people. It's about the

47:33

quality of your connections. Number two, clarify

47:36

what types of relationships you want and

47:38

you think will serve you best, and

47:40

then work on maintaining those. Number three,

47:42

tech and social media can be a

47:45

great connector, but often it's the real-life

47:47

interactions that feed us the most. Number

47:49

four, you don't need a partner to

47:52

fight off loneliness. You can find intimacy

47:54

and fulfillment in all kinds of relationships.

47:56

And number five. If you're not sure

47:59

where to start, practicing self-compassion is the

48:01

best first move. So Raj, after all

48:03

that, have you been doing loneliness wrong?

48:05

You know what? I think... I'm pretty

48:08

okay. I feel like I am actively

48:10

trying to foster a community for the

48:12

future, for today, all of it. I

48:15

feel good about that. But I do

48:17

think, you know, the things she said

48:19

about altruism really stuck out to me

48:22

in self-compassion. I do want to be

48:24

more helpful to others because like I

48:26

said, it feels good for everyone. And

48:28

I do want to be like sweeter

48:31

and kinder to myself. I mean, there's

48:33

so many benefits to that. You're never

48:35

going to lose if you're doing either

48:38

of a community. how close we all

48:40

are to being disconnected from each other.

48:42

And I don't think it's going to

48:45

get any better. I think there are

48:47

so many reasons to feel bad about

48:49

yourself and about each other right now.

48:51

And so the more we can do,

48:54

the more we can talk about it,

48:56

the more we can talk about it,

48:58

the more we can think about it,

49:01

the conversations like this, I think we're

49:03

going to need more of them as

49:05

we go forward. I totally agree. Do

49:08

you have something you think you're doing

49:10

wrong? Email us at am I doing

49:12

it wrong at huffpost.com and let us

49:14

know. Welcome

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