0:04

Hello everyone, and welcome to Amanpour.

0:06

Here's what's coming up. Mourners

0:08

from around the world pay respects

0:10

to Pope Francis, who's now

0:12

lying in state at St. Peter's Basilica

0:14

at the Vatican. The former

0:17

Irish president, Mary Macalese, on

0:19

the importance of continuing Francis'

0:21

church reforms and her own

0:23

personal fight for progress. Plus,

0:26

Trump does another U -turn to

0:28

calm markets and people spooked by

0:30

his trade war. former

0:32

Obama adviser David Axelrod, here

0:34

in London, is getting an earful

0:37

wherever he goes. Then, Pope

0:39

Francis' extraordinary relationship with

0:41

a small church inside

0:43

Gaza. Jeremy Diamond reports

0:45

on the daily phone calls that

0:47

kept up wartime morale. Plus,

0:50

Trump's fight against anti -Semitism has

0:52

become fraught for many Jews. Those

0:54

are the words of Rabbi

0:57

Sharon Brouse, who joins me to

0:59

discuss America's crackdown on higher education.

1:22

Welcome to the program, everyone. I'm

1:24

Christiane Amanpour in London. Pope Francis

1:26

will now lie in state at

1:28

St. Peter's Basilica until his funeral on

1:31

Saturday. Crowds are flocking to

1:33

pay their respects, and this marks

1:35

a pivotal moment for the Catholic

1:37

Church to continue Pope Francis' reforms

1:39

or revert to strict pre -France's traditionalism.

1:41

U .S. President Donald Trump says he

1:43

and the First Lady will go

1:45

to the funeral announcing we look forward

1:47

to being there. The event may

1:50

become more than just a farewell to

1:52

the Pope, as assembled world leaders

1:54

have a lot to discuss with the

1:56

U .S. President. Trump's strongman

1:58

winner -take -all attitude is in stark

2:00

contrast, of course, to Pope Francis, who

2:02

was driven by compassion for the weakest, the

2:05

poorest, the most vulnerable in

2:07

society. And he is

2:09

a native of Argentina. He's

2:11

ordered seven days of mourning following

2:13

the Pontiff's passing. That is, the

2:15

president of Argentina has done that.

2:18

CNN's David Culver is there touring

2:20

through the Pope's childhood neighborhood and

2:22

speaking to some of his longtime

2:24

friends. Even

2:27

before he passed away, Pope

2:29

Francis was memorialized here

2:31

in his hometown, specifically in

2:33

Flores, the neighborhood in

2:35

Buenos Aires that he was

2:37

raised. You can see

2:39

tributes once again. We see this all

2:41

over. Flowers left outside

2:43

his childhood home. And

2:45

they've even got the plaque. This

2:49

is the house where

2:51

Pope Francis lived. This

2:54

is where Pope Francis went to

2:56

elementary school. And it's still a

2:58

school. You've got students. who

3:00

are leaving for the day. Pope

3:03

Francis' friendships from even

3:05

secondary school onwards,

3:07

some 75 -plus years ago,

3:09

lasted for decades. And

3:12

today we actually met up with one

3:14

of his friends, Oscar

3:16

Crespo. He

3:19

says he remembers a moment where they were

3:21

in religion in class and The

3:24

instructor said, those who have not

3:26

had your first communion, please stand.

3:28

And there were two people who

3:30

stood up. It was Oscar and

3:32

another individual. And it was offered

3:34

up that one of the other

3:36

classmates would take them to have

3:38

their first communion. And that person

3:41

was Jorge Bergoglio. Pope

3:43

Francis' legacy

3:45

stretches across this

3:48

community and even imprinted

3:50

on the ground. In

3:55

just a few blocks from his

3:57

childhood home, the church he went

3:59

to as a kid and a

4:01

teenager. This is

4:03

the Basilica de San José

4:05

de Flores, but it's what

4:07

happened inside that really stands

4:09

out. It

4:15

says inside this

4:17

confessional on September

4:19

21st, 1953, Jorge

4:22

Mario Bergoglio. had

4:24

the call from God to become

4:26

a priest. And

4:29

now that confessional has become

4:31

a pilgrimage site of sorts

4:33

throughout the day. People coming

4:35

in to leave flowers, candles,

4:37

to offer prayers. Just

4:40

to remember. But

4:43

it's not just Catholics or even Christians mourning

4:45

the loss. Omar

4:47

Abur, a Muslim, worked alongside

4:49

then Cardinal Bergoglio in

4:51

a Jewish counterpart to create

4:53

the Interreligious Dialogue Institute. For

4:56

more than 25 years, they've built a deep friendship. When

4:59

was the last time you spoke with them? This

5:02

year, January

5:04

23. What did you talk

5:06

about? Many times. AI.

5:10

AI? Yeah. Artificial

5:12

intelligence? Yeah. Omar has

5:14

been reluctant to do interviews since

5:16

the Pope's passing. Omar, it's not

5:18

lost on me that... The world

5:20

has lost a pope, but you

5:22

lost a friend. He

5:24

used to be a good friend. All

5:27

we need is him,

5:29

really, really. Words

5:38

are not enough, okay?

5:40

Words are not enough. If

5:42

you want, I to stop. Here,

5:45

please. So

5:48

it might sound abrupt there as Omar

5:50

was ending the interview, but it

5:52

wasn't personal. For him it

5:54

was a battling of the emotions that

5:56

were surfacing and they were doing

5:58

that several times throughout our conversation with

6:00

him. And because as the world is

6:02

mourning the loss of the pontiff,

6:04

for him it's a dear friend. And

6:07

so he didn't want to make

6:09

the focus about him, instead he wanted

6:11

to keep it focused on the

6:13

Holy Father. And for that reason, He

6:16

needed to step aside before he

6:18

realized the emotions were surfacing too strongly.

6:20

I asked him if he was

6:22

going to be able to go to

6:24

the funeral. He said he, a

6:26

local rabbi and another Catholic priest, planned

6:28

to travel to Rome, but they'll simply

6:30

go and personally pay their respects in

6:32

St. Peter's and then leave before the

6:34

funeral starts. For them,

6:36

it's the best way to

6:38

privately remember their friend. And

6:42

that is a heck of a journey of faith

6:44

those friends are going to make. Mary

6:46

Macalese, the former Irish president

6:48

and a Catholic herself, praised the

6:50

Pope's devotion and clear moral authority.

6:53

And she's been an outspoken

6:55

advocate for even more church

6:57

reform. So welcome to the

6:59

program from Ireland. Nice

7:02

to see you. Where are you exactly? I'm

7:05

a Northwest common. There you go. Not

7:07

a place. Well, with

7:09

tourists, but close to the very beautiful town,

7:11

probably one of the nicest towns in

7:13

Ireland, Carrick on Shannon, which is right on

7:15

the Shannon, as indeed I am. All

7:18

right. Now, I'm going to get back to

7:20

some of the beauty of Ireland and

7:22

your industries in a moment, but first I want to

7:24

ask you. you know, he has

7:26

been described as more and

7:28

more of a lonely moral voice,

7:30

a lonely sort of public

7:32

moral authority. And I just wonder,

7:34

you know, what do you say

7:37

now, how you're feeling about the passing

7:39

of this Pope? Well,

7:42

I'm not surprised by it. I

7:44

firmly was expecting it, frankly,

7:46

when I, particularly given his

7:48

immediate health history. And when

7:50

I saw him on the

7:53

balcony, On the day

7:55

of the resurrection on Easter Sunday, I

7:57

realised immediately that here was a man

7:59

who was quite determined to spend

8:01

his very last breath blessing

8:04

people and getting that message, that

8:06

Urbi ad Orbi message to

8:08

the people, a message about peace,

8:10

about the poor, about the

8:12

marginalised, about our... essentially I

8:14

always reduce his how he speaks

8:16

to two really important emphatic

8:18

things. It doesn't really matter what

8:20

context he's talking but he

8:23

reduces everything really to the sacredness

8:25

of the human person and

8:27

the sacredness of the earth and

8:29

then our common responsibility for protecting

8:31

those and vindicating and

8:33

embracing those two big

8:35

responsibilities. So no,

8:37

was I surprised by his death?

8:40

I was not, frankly. I was

8:42

only surprised that he survived that

8:44

long. trick, not just around the

8:46

piazza as he has done before,

8:48

but all the way down the

8:50

Viedele Conciliazione and back up again.

8:53

And I was watching it almost

8:55

to be perfectly frank, horror -stricken, because

8:57

realising how ill he was, the

8:59

doing of that certainly, well,

9:02

as we know, it was not good

9:04

for his health. Probably in the end

9:06

was what lay between him and the

9:08

stroke that he had, but he didn't

9:10

care. He had been told by his

9:12

doctors to go and take two months,

9:14

told quite emphatically that he needed two

9:16

months of rest. And I can imagine

9:18

he was a gruff man, you know,

9:20

and there was a kind of a

9:22

rough side to an untutored side at

9:24

times. And I would say his attitude

9:26

was to heck with that. I have

9:28

a job to do and I'm going

9:31

to die both in the job and

9:33

on the job, which is exactly what

9:35

he did. Tell me, you've clearly met

9:37

him, right? Because you say he was

9:39

a bit of a gruff guy and

9:41

a bit untutored. Tell me about your

9:43

interactions with him. I

9:46

can't say that I met him would

9:48

be a really gross exaggeration. I've

9:50

been in his company three times. The

9:52

first was on the day that

9:54

he was elected. I was standing right

9:56

underneath the balcony where Cardinal Torron

9:58

in that quiet little voice announced Habemos

10:00

Papam. And that

10:02

was our first introduction to the

10:04

new Pope Francis. So I

10:06

was there in the square. for

10:08

that, that was quite an

10:10

occasion. But on the other two occasions

10:12

that I was in the same space as him, after

10:15

I left office back in 2011,

10:17

I went back to student life, I

10:19

became a student again, and I became

10:21

a student in the Jesuit University in

10:23

Rome called the Pontifical Gregorian University. And

10:26

he invited all the students and

10:28

the staff from the Gregorian to

10:30

meet him in the hall

10:32

Paolo Sexto in the big hall at

10:34

the Vatican, and we did. Now,

10:36

that's when you began to see that

10:38

he could be gruff, you know. I

10:41

was an elderly lady, which meant

10:43

that I was one of very few

10:45

women in the room. The rest

10:47

were nearly all priests, seminarians, a few

10:49

bishops, lecturers, of course, quite a

10:51

lot of Jesuits. But most

10:53

of them were clerics or religious of one

10:56

sort. And he wasn't, he was

10:58

quite brusque with them. He said, you

11:00

know, you're not home to be little

11:02

princes, get out of your castles

11:04

and out of your palaces and go

11:06

meet the poor. Well, that's what he

11:08

did and now we've lost you and

11:10

I had a lot more to ask you.

11:12

Hopefully we'll try to get you back

11:14

in a moment. Later

11:16

in the program, we are going to

11:19

take a look at Pope Francis' special

11:21

relationship with the church in Gaza. And

11:23

I'll talk to Rabbi Sharon Brouse

11:25

about Trump's crackdown on colleges

11:27

in the name of anti -Semitism. We're going to

11:29

take a short break now and we'll be right back. Let's

11:40

bring back Mary Macalese, the

11:42

former Irish president now. So

11:45

just before the break, we were

11:47

talking about... Francis' legacy. I just want

11:49

to read a little bit about

11:51

what you wrote in the Irish Times

11:53

today. You said, the sad reality

11:55

is that Francis talked a good story

11:57

for the journalist down at the

12:00

back of the plane. But when it

12:02

came putting pen to paper to

12:04

change magisterial teaching, he took the timid

12:06

path and left a flip -flopping, perplexing

12:08

legacy which could yet transform into

12:10

11, possibly or

12:13

possibly not. So

12:15

it depends. Yeah. So you

12:17

are one of those Catholics

12:19

who are left wanting. That's

12:21

because you're much more progressive

12:24

than even the progressive reforms

12:26

that he did or the

12:28

attitude of more liberal reform.

12:31

He wasn't really. When

12:33

you summarise everything, he

12:35

wasn't a reformer in the

12:37

sense of changing church

12:39

teaching. He changed virtually nothing.

12:41

With the exception, the

12:43

noble exception of capital punishment,

12:46

which he took off the statute books as

12:48

it were in the Catholic Church, and

12:50

that was good, Pope

12:52

John Paul had initiated that process

12:54

and Francis finished it. But in

12:56

relation to major changes in relation

12:58

to dogma, absolutely not. I mean,

13:00

it's only little over a year ago

13:02

that in relation to women priests, not

13:04

only did he say they couldn't happen,

13:07

but he also said that the theology

13:09

in which they were based was rather

13:11

imperfect. And while it was still

13:13

being worked out, there

13:15

was that we, the faithful, that's

13:17

people like me, we must accept it.

13:19

And we were not allowed to

13:21

publicly contradict it. Now, if what that

13:24

tells me is here was an

13:26

old school, who'd never read the Universal

13:28

Declaration of Human Rights, which says

13:30

that I and every other human being,

13:32

but by virtue of being

13:34

human, we freedom of conscience, freedom

13:36

of speech, freedom of opinion,

13:38

freedom of expression. but not in

13:40

Catholic canon law. We have,

13:43

according to Catholic canon law, we

13:45

have an obligation to obedience to

13:47

the teachings of the church. Now,

13:49

that's difficult where you disagree with

13:52

those teachings and there are quite a

13:54

number of teachings that are worth

13:56

disagreeing with because they are based on

13:58

an absence. of human rights and

14:00

also a failure to fully interrogate

14:02

issues. The fundamental issue of

14:04

where is the place and the

14:07

role of women in the

14:09

church? Can I just ask you

14:11

about that? Because it's clearly

14:13

something that troubles and interests many,

14:15

many Catholic women. Apparently,

14:18

just before he died, he

14:20

left instructions that the

14:23

process to allow women to

14:25

be deacons gets started.

14:27

Do you think that is a, well,

14:30

that's the first step? I

14:33

hadn't heard that. That is news to

14:35

me. I would be surprised

14:37

by that, but because there are now

14:39

three reports that have been lying on his

14:41

desk for quite some time that he's

14:43

never published. But if that is the case,

14:45

that would be quite good news. On

14:47

the other hand, it is just the diaconate,

14:49

and I don't quite know I don't

14:51

know if you go down that

14:53

road of ordination to the diaconate, why

14:56

wouldn't you go the whole way

14:58

to ordination to the priesthood? That bothers

15:00

me that you would put a

15:02

wall between those two things. But that

15:04

said, it's a small step, yes.

15:06

But I'm not even talking about ordination

15:08

to the diaconate or to the

15:10

priesthood. I'm talking about the exclusion of

15:12

all women. That's 700 million

15:14

women in the church who

15:16

make a huge contribution to

15:19

the church from all decision

15:21

making. And in particular, the

15:23

formulation of teachings, teachings made

15:25

by celibate men who

15:27

are invariably bishops.

15:30

Now that's problematic and that's never

15:32

been addressed. That bothers me

15:34

because there's 1 .4 billion people

15:36

in this church. Many of them

15:38

really good researchers, really good intellectuals

15:40

and academics give them the job

15:42

and they could very easily work

15:45

out the damage inflicted by

15:47

misogyny but also more importantly the

15:49

potential of the church once

15:51

misogyny evaporates. So President

15:53

McLeese, you know, you are giving voice

15:55

to, you know, what a lot of

15:57

people do believe, clearly, and certainly a lot

15:59

of Catholic women. But then there's the

16:02

other side, and we're led to believe

16:04

that there's a battle for who's

16:06

going to be the next Pope. Will

16:08

it be a more traditionalist in

16:10

the Pope Benedict, you know, mold or

16:12

not? And so where do you

16:14

think this is? Because for sure, Pope

16:17

Francis talked a different game and,

16:19

you know, did leave the door open

16:21

for, as a

16:23

bridge, so to speak. But

16:26

you have to understand, the door had already

16:28

been kicked open and indeed the windows

16:30

too by the faithful, by the people. There

16:32

was, when he came in as

16:35

Pope, there was already a massive

16:37

churn within the church. People leaving

16:39

in frustration, obviously the scandals had

16:41

literally scandalized a lot of people.

16:43

But even long before that, going

16:45

back to Paul VI and Humanae

16:48

Vita and the ban on artificial

16:50

contraception, and then of course the

16:52

massification of education, particularly in the

16:54

West, produced a much more incisive

16:56

and intellectually astute laity who

16:58

started to have. their voice.

17:01

So that was the

17:03

churn that he inherited. So

17:05

the doors were already being kicked

17:07

open. And I think one of

17:09

his strengths was that he managed

17:11

to look like he was dealing

17:13

with that, that he managed to

17:15

look like he and just and

17:17

I think in relation to women

17:19

in relation to LGBTIQ, he said

17:21

certain things that helped to keep

17:23

the pot simmering without actually, you

17:25

know, without actually producing something astute

17:28

that was edible in the

17:30

end. But it's a it's in

17:32

progress. Now, you're quite right

17:34

to point out here we are,

17:36

and there are 130 -odd men

17:38

going into the conclave. Well,

17:40

actually there'll be over 250 going

17:43

into the conclave. of whom

17:45

130 odd will have a vote

17:47

and they'll probably choose someone

17:49

from within that 130. They

17:51

could choose from a much

17:53

wider realm of course but they

17:55

almost invariably with only one exception

17:57

I think they have they choose from within

18:00

that but that's a very

18:02

very small pool and

18:04

it's not particularly deep. It's

18:06

not very exciting. You

18:09

take the whole of Africa, for

18:11

example, the African cardinals that are there.

18:13

Some people talk about an African

18:16

cardinal, and it is true the

18:18

church is growing exponentially in Africa.

18:20

But one of the problems with

18:22

Africa is it has yet to

18:24

deal with the issue of clerical

18:26

abuse. Why? It denies that it

18:28

exists in Africa. I heard the

18:30

Polish Bishop saying that some years

18:32

ago how wrong they were, the

18:34

Italians how wrong they were. Indeed in

18:36

Ireland there was a time when

18:39

it was we were in denial how

18:41

wrong the church here was and

18:43

what a lesson we've learned. So it

18:45

seems to me unlikely that the

18:47

Pope would come from

18:49

Africa and Western Europe is

18:51

hugely problematic because the church

18:53

is in an existential crisis. My

18:56

own personal choice, if I had

18:58

a choice, which I don't obviously haven't

19:00

got a vote, but I would

19:02

love for it to be the Asian

19:04

cardinal, Cardinal Tagli, who

19:06

is in the mold, rather,

19:09

of Francis, but a lot

19:11

more courageous in many ways.

19:14

He's never allowed the idea that he might

19:17

be Pope get him the way of

19:19

what he said. A lot of people sit

19:21

on the fence, a lot of people

19:23

are trimmers, they trim their sails to suit

19:25

the wind, the prevailing wind. So

19:27

it's hard to find people who are

19:29

really... I was called, you know, very

19:31

expressive of their true views unless they

19:33

happen to be really very, very right

19:35

wing and then you do hear them.

19:38

Or you don't really hear the

19:40

liberal voices so much. They tend

19:42

to be much more muted. I

19:44

like Cardinal Tagli. I admire and

19:47

respect him. Cardinal Zuppi from Bologna

19:49

admire and respect. He's a Roman,

19:51

so if they were looking for

19:53

an Italian. But, you know,

19:55

there aren't that, the put like

19:57

this, The list is

19:59

very short, and a number

20:01

of them are also problematic

20:03

because they have passed that

20:05

probably have things that need still

20:08

to be scrutinized, and they may

20:10

not come out of it that

20:12

well. All right. President Mary McLeese,

20:14

thank you very much indeed for your reflections.

20:16

Thank you. We did, in

20:18

fact, interview Cardinal Tagli, so we're very happy

20:20

that he's in the running. Thanks

20:22

so much. Now, to

20:24

the United States and a moment of

20:26

reckoning over what America stands for

20:28

these days, Donald Trump, not yet in

20:30

office for 100 days, is turning

20:32

the country more inward, gutting foreign

20:35

aid, slapping tariffs on even

20:37

its closest allies. The IMF

20:39

says Trump's trade war will slow

20:41

the global economic forecast for this

20:43

year and next year, and polls show

20:45

that his support on the economy

20:47

is at its lowest rating ever. Do

20:50

Democrats see an opportunity

20:52

here? David Axelrod knows Democratic

20:54

strategy better than most. He

20:56

was President Obama's senior

20:58

advisor. He joined me here in the

21:00

studio on a visit to London. David

21:03

Axelrod, welcome to the program. Great to

21:05

be here. So you're here in

21:07

Europe, in the UK. You

21:09

are the preeminent American political

21:11

strategist, Democratic strategist. What are

21:14

you hearing from people here

21:16

now about this moment in time?

21:18

I think confusion. some

21:21

disappointment. And

21:23

a lot of questions about,

21:25

is this the new normal? Or

21:28

are we going to go back

21:31

to some sort of relationship that

21:33

is more familiar? I'm

21:35

also hearing that people are not assuming

21:37

that, and they're already thinking about what

21:39

comes next, which is not

21:41

good for the United States. In that.

21:44

What comes next in terms of

21:46

how arrangements

21:48

are made, how trade

21:50

relationships happen. That

21:53

might cut out the United States. Yes. Might be forced

21:55

to cut out the United States. Yes, and I think

21:57

that is a concern. You know,

21:59

the United States has benefited from... Donald

22:01

Trump has the

22:03

idea that somehow the United States

22:05

has been terribly disadvantaged by its

22:08

relationships in the world and that

22:10

the world is sponging off of the

22:12

US, but it's been a

22:14

mutually beneficial relationship. And,

22:17

you know, just think

22:19

about the dollar, you know,

22:21

as the sort of default currency of

22:23

the world and all the other

22:25

benefits that have accrued to the United

22:28

States because there was trust in

22:30

the United States. So to one of their

22:32

questions, there may be an answer. I'm just

22:34

going to posit it out there. Of course,

22:36

things can change from second to second. But

22:38

Are we going to go back to more

22:40

of a normal relationship? Already Donald Trump has

22:42

seen the markets. He has already said, I

22:44

have no intention of firing Jerome Powell, the

22:47

chairman of the Fed, because of what all

22:49

his... previous words did to the markets. Then

22:51

he said, I'm not going to play hardball

22:53

with China, and the

22:55

145 % tariff obviously is not going

22:57

to stay, but they need to make a

23:00

good deal. And Scott Besant, who's going to be

23:02

talking, has said a trade war

23:04

with China is unsustainable. So that

23:06

many people are describing as a blink,

23:08

and at the very least, a

23:10

U -turn. Did you

23:12

have to deal with those things? I'm not

23:14

talking about in that sort of situation, but,

23:16

you know, dealing with people's fears. I mean,

23:19

yeah. Well, you know, I

23:21

was always very sensitive when I

23:23

was talking to you and others

23:26

when I was working for President

23:28

Obama to the fact that my

23:30

words could have tangible impacts

23:32

around the world, because people would

23:34

interpret that I was speaking for

23:36

the president of the United States,

23:38

and certainly his words could have

23:40

those implications. And

23:42

Donald Trump doesn't have those

23:45

same fears. I mean, it

23:47

goes directly from his head to

23:49

the world without an editorial function.

23:51

No, it goes from his gut.

23:53

He says it. Yes, yes. OK.

23:55

But he is an intuitive, improvisational.

23:59

person and has been throughout his

24:01

life, and that has served him well. But

24:04

as he's learned particularly in

24:06

this tariff discussion, when

24:08

you improvise, you can create

24:11

enormous lurches in the

24:13

markets that can have really

24:16

tangible and destructive impact. I mean, I

24:18

already have. Trillions of dollars have

24:20

been lost off of American capitalization and

24:22

all the rest of it. And

24:24

obviously, Xi has not blinked, and he's

24:26

just standing firm. So I want

24:28

to get to this issue in terms

24:30

of American reaction at home. Donald

24:32

Trump's poll ratings are coming down, but

24:34

by no mean are they collapsing. But

24:37

on the economy, which is why he

24:39

was elected mostly and immigration, they're

24:41

quite low right now, or lower than they

24:43

were. He's

24:46

done no major legislation, you

24:48

know, since in the 100 days,

24:50

but in a similar period

24:52

of time when they also had

24:54

congressional support, the Biden administration

24:56

worked with Congress to negotiate major

24:58

economic bills, infrastructure, environment, high -tech

25:01

manufacturing support, sign them into

25:03

law, child poverty, things, all of

25:05

that kind of stuff. And

25:07

yet Trump still gets a

25:09

lot more credit with all

25:11

of this economic chaos than

25:13

the Biden... did for

25:16

actual economic legislation for working

25:18

in middle class? Yeah. Well,

25:20

first of all, I

25:22

think that Biden had

25:24

the misfortune of having

25:26

to govern through a

25:28

pandemic. And so, you

25:30

know, oftentimes it's what people

25:33

feel. You can present tangible facts

25:35

that, you know, here are

25:37

the things we've done. But

25:39

there was a pervasive sense

25:41

throughout the pandemic and after the

25:43

pandemic that largely driven by

25:45

inflation, not just in the US,

25:47

but all over the world, that

25:50

things were harder. Things were harder. It

25:52

was harder to get by. We've

25:55

had huge housing shortage. That's

25:57

been an issue there. There were

25:59

just day -to -day costs that

26:01

accrued to people. And

26:04

the president took the brunt

26:06

of the blame for that, though

26:08

inflation was a global challenge. And

26:11

the impression was abetted

26:13

by his age and his

26:15

appearance that he was

26:17

just being overrun by events.

26:19

You've said, I've heard

26:21

you say that Donald Trump is

26:24

the best salesman in your memory in

26:26

our life. Well, I think in

26:28

one of the best in American political

26:30

history. But is that essentially what

26:32

not what it's all about, but a

26:34

huge percentage of where the success

26:36

is. Because clearly, President Biden was not

26:39

a great salesman. He was not

26:41

a good storyteller at all. Yes. Not

26:43

any of his administration. And

26:45

look, there was a lack

26:47

of energy that was palpable.

26:51

that hurt him. And now here comes

26:53

Donald Trump. No, he

26:55

hasn't passed legislation. Why

26:58

do you think he has to be as both

27:00

houses of Congress? Why is all this executive order?

27:02

Well, he has both houses of Congress, but he

27:04

has a very narrow margin in the House. He's

27:06

got the filibuster to deal

27:08

with in the Senate. And

27:11

I think their notion was

27:13

to test the limits of executive

27:15

authority and do as much

27:17

by executive order as possible. And

27:19

that's what he's done. And

27:21

honestly, there's been a lot of

27:23

action. You know, think about,

27:25

you know, someone breaking a billion, you

27:27

know, in billiards breaking the balls, they're

27:29

going everywhere. And so

27:31

there's a sense that something's happening. And

27:34

in a country where people felt

27:36

events were overrunning us and the president

27:38

wasn't in control, now comes this

27:40

guy who's moving a lot of things

27:42

around. You know,

27:44

the tests will be at the end of

27:46

the day, do people feel like their lives

27:48

are better because of it? Are there costs

27:50

coming down? Some of the things he's doing

27:52

are actually driving up. And they say maybe

27:54

more inflation if trade. I mean, one of

27:57

the reasons I think you see him going

27:59

after Chairman Powell is I think he's looking

28:01

for people to blame. But he switched on

28:03

that again. He did only because of the

28:05

markets. Right. But it's always only because of

28:07

the markets. That's what happened April 9th when

28:09

he did the 90 -day pause. But with

28:11

Donald Trump, there's always another day. And, you

28:14

know, everyone in politics, everyone in business, every

28:16

world leader wakes up

28:18

with some degree of dread

28:20

as they check to

28:22

see what he posted that

28:24

night. Here, across the

28:26

Atlantic Ocean, whether it's in

28:28

Britain, whether it's Europe,

28:30

Africa, Asia, wherever you look,

28:33

people are not just saying, oh, Donald

28:35

Trump, people are saying America's reputation

28:37

is shot to an extent, and people

28:39

are asking, What is it with

28:41

the American people? What

28:43

do they stand for? Because I think,

28:45

you know, we've always been told over

28:47

here that you are the exceptional nation,

28:50

that you have brought us peace and

28:52

prosperity, rules of the road, you know,

28:54

all that world order that American created

28:56

for the benefit of pretty much itself

28:58

and the world. But it's not just

29:00

the economy, it's the mass deportations, it's

29:02

the crackdown on academic freedom, it's going

29:04

after the media, it's no due process.

29:09

Who are the American people today?

29:11

What is the electorate? Well,

29:13

look, I think the Americans voted

29:15

for this. I

29:17

mentioned this when we've been together

29:20

before. I'm the son of a refugee

29:22

and I'm very grateful to our

29:24

country and very proud of our country

29:26

for all the reasons you mentioned.

29:28

And one of the things that concerns

29:30

me is that the things that

29:32

make America exceptional are the fact that

29:34

we are a beacon to people

29:37

around the world, strivers from all over

29:39

the world who've come and strengthened

29:41

our country. You know, research

29:43

scientists and others who have made

29:45

us the technological scientific hub

29:47

of the world, the rule

29:49

of law, all

29:52

of these things, and

29:54

all of them are under

29:56

assault here, and that is

29:58

disquieting to me. And I

30:00

think to Americans, the thing

30:03

is that people first judge

30:05

through the prism of their

30:07

own life experience. And a

30:09

lot of Americans have been

30:11

alienated about how their... has

30:13

moved along, even in the

30:15

times of great prosperity. And

30:18

there's a frustration, there's a frustration with

30:20

government. Christian, we did a, I am the

30:22

founder of the Institute of Politics at

30:24

the University of Chicago. We did a poll

30:26

there a couple of years ago as

30:29

part of a conference we did on disinformation.

30:31

And we gave people sort of agree,

30:33

disagree statements as part of that poll. And

30:35

one of them was, a government is

30:37

corrupt and rigged against people like me. 56

30:39

% of Americans said, Yes, I

30:41

agree with that. That

30:43

is a warning

30:46

sign. And frankly, to

30:48

Democrats, my fellow

30:50

Democrats, I would say

30:52

that's something to pay attention to.

30:54

If you're the party who believes

30:56

that government is a tool for

30:58

progress, then you ought to

31:00

be concerned about that. And

31:02

ask yourself and investigate, why do

31:05

people feel that way? concerned

31:07

about that, yes, but also concerned

31:09

about how an opposition actually is

31:11

an opposition. The Democrats are now

31:14

in the opposition, but they are

31:16

viewed as being pretty much shell

31:18

-shocked and unable to have any

31:20

kind of coordination response. we've never

31:22

actually seen what we've seen in

31:24

the last 90 days. I mean,

31:26

Donald Trump has basically, through the

31:28

use of executive orders and actions, has

31:31

started a bunch of He's

31:34

lit a bunch of trees on fire. Democrats

31:36

have had a hard time knowing where

31:38

the hose go. Correct. We're going to get

31:41

to that. Because to be fair, he

31:43

telegraphed it loud and clear. Project 2025, which

31:45

he denied, which was there for everybody

31:47

to read, told us exactly where this was

31:49

going. Of course, even those of us

31:51

who are observers are amazed by the speed

31:53

and the... Well, it's unprecedented. Unprecedented,

31:55

that's true. I want

31:57

to get to this. For instance, USAID

31:59

and the cuts on USAID are very harmful.

32:02

They harm America's software and they harm

32:04

the people overseas who depends on

32:06

them. You told Democrats to quit whining

32:08

about that issue and stop fighting

32:10

on that issue. But I want to

32:12

ask you this because there seems

32:14

to be a dispute between Democrats, important

32:17

arms of the Democratic Party. Governor

32:19

Newsom saying, you know, I'm trying to

32:21

talk to all the far -right people

32:23

on his podcast and saying this

32:25

and that. You've got AOC and Bernie

32:27

Sanders out because Democrats are apparently

32:29

furious at their leaders and want a

32:31

populist revolt. And you said

32:33

this thing. So what is the strategy

32:35

for a united response? Well, first of

32:37

all, let me just say one thing. I

32:40

believe that the dismantlement of

32:42

American foreign aid will turn out

32:44

to be one of the

32:47

worst foreign policy decisions, certainly of

32:49

my lifetime, maybe of the

32:51

entire history of the country, because

32:53

for a very small investment,

32:55

which is 1 % or less

32:57

of federal budget, you

32:59

have enormous impact in

33:02

terms of preventing disease

33:04

and terrorism and so

33:06

many things that ultimately

33:08

affect Americans forget about the

33:10

humanitarian aspects of it, which

33:12

I value very much. and

33:16

the goodwill that you squander, there

33:18

are tangible impacts of this that

33:20

will be felt downstream. But most

33:22

Americans believe that 30 % of

33:24

the budget goes to foreign aid. And

33:27

so the question is, where do

33:29

you make the fight? You certainly should

33:31

resist this and fight it where

33:33

you can in the Congress, in the

33:35

courts, and so on. But in

33:37

terms of communications, what is

33:39

the story you're trying tell? We

33:42

want to ask you because you are

33:44

the president -maker. I was hoping you

33:46

would. If the next presidential candidate

33:48

on your party, what do you tell

33:50

them to do? Let's say they've

33:52

declared themselves. I think that the party

33:54

of working people ought to think

33:56

deeply about working people and what it

33:58

is that people are so are

34:00

struggling with in their lives. And, you

34:03

know, what it is, too

34:05

often Democrats approach voters

34:07

with a notion that

34:09

we know what's best

34:11

for you. And

34:13

we're here to help you

34:16

become more like us, more

34:18

successful, and so on. The

34:20

sort of college -educated, metropolitan,

34:22

democratic party. And it is

34:24

a message that's, I think, taken

34:26

as disdainful. The big thing to think

34:28

about is what big structural changes

34:30

do we have to make to make

34:32

good on an American dream that

34:34

a lot of Americans don't believe is

34:36

real anymore? And I think that's

34:38

the fundamental task of the Democratic Party.

34:40

Secondly, let me just make this

34:43

one point. Donald Trump is

34:45

here. He's not going to be here

34:47

forever, no matter what he thinks. He's

34:49

not going to be here forever. But

34:51

there's going to be a big blast

34:53

radius from what he's done. And a

34:55

lot of things will be torn down

34:58

that are very important. And a

35:00

lot of things will be torn down

35:02

that needed to be reformed. And the question

35:04

I think for the Democratic Party is,

35:06

what are you going to build in its

35:08

place? Are you going to

35:10

simply restore what was there, even

35:12

though people didn't feel they were being

35:14

well served by a lot of

35:17

what was there? Or are you going

35:19

to build something new that's more

35:21

resistant to corruption, that's more responsive to

35:23

everyday people, that is more agile

35:25

and uses the tools of the 21st

35:27

century? That, I think,

35:29

is what Democrats ought to be

35:32

thinking about instead of being

35:34

on their back foot, on the

35:36

front foot, and think about

35:38

what the future is that we

35:40

can build as a country

35:42

after the hurricane. Well, that's interesting.

35:45

After the hurricane, I

35:47

want to ask you this. A

35:49

lot of people say it's going to

35:51

be up to the Republicans, in

35:53

fact, Republicans in Senate, maybe business people,

35:55

and in the very powerful right -wing conservative

35:57

media sphere, which is podcasts and all

35:59

these, you know, right -wing things. So

36:01

to that point, Joe Rogan, he

36:04

has started talking about some of these

36:06

issues, particularly the mass deportation. We're going

36:08

to play this soundbite. The

36:10

problem with things that are going in

36:12

a radical direction and then there's

36:15

an overcorrection. So the overcorrection is

36:17

lack of due process. The

36:19

overcorrection is like round them all

36:21

up. ship them to jail. That's dangerous,

36:23

Joe. That's dangerous. That's dangerous. That's

36:25

dangerous. dangerous. That's we

36:27

got to be careful that we don't

36:29

become monsters while we're fighting monsters. How

36:32

important is it, not you,

36:34

the politicians or the strategists or

36:36

the experts or the academics,

36:38

but a Joe Rogan who maybe

36:40

helped make Trump president is

36:42

now saying this, is this the

36:44

game changer? Well, look, I

36:47

think that what generally

36:49

reigns in excesses by

36:51

leaders is their own

36:53

party. When their

36:55

own party begins to

36:57

drift away is when leaders

37:00

react or become greatly

37:02

weakened. Right now, Republicans

37:04

are very much supportive of

37:06

Trump. I don't know

37:08

whether this Rogan piece will influence.

37:10

Now, younger voters have drifted away

37:13

in polling, younger

37:15

voters who in greater numbers

37:17

than for past Republican candidates

37:19

supported Trump. He's still lost,

37:21

but by a much smaller

37:23

margin. So yeah, I think

37:25

that it is significant. And I was

37:27

interested in what Rogan said, because

37:29

whenever I speak to audiences, where

37:31

there are a lot of Trump

37:34

voters. I said, you know, you

37:36

love Donald Trump. I understand that,

37:38

but he's not going to be

37:40

president forever. And do you want

37:42

the next say the next president

37:44

just for discussion purposes is AOC.

37:46

Do you want her to have

37:49

to exercise the same kind of

37:51

powers where she can sweep up

37:53

people without due process where she

37:55

can. make executive orders that sweep

37:57

Congress aside. Do you want that?

37:59

And what Rogan is saying is,

38:02

you know, we may like what

38:04

we see now and make disappearing

38:06

people to El Salvador, but

38:08

are we going to like it when another

38:10

president is doing it and maybe doing it to

38:12

us? David Axelrod, thank you very

38:14

much. And I'm not going to make a big deal

38:16

about it, but I think you just endorsed AOC for the

38:18

next Democrat. No, I didn't. I

38:22

did, Matt. Thank

38:24

you very much. Good to be with you. And

38:27

we'll be back right after this short break. Look

38:38

at this incredible space. Or I

38:40

use my design background to help them

38:42

redo their existing house. Welcome home.

38:44

Oh, my God. It's the same space,

38:46

but it feels so much bigger.

38:48

Paige going to give you an extra

38:50

garage? No, David will. Now the

38:52

competition has begun. Paige Turner joins

38:54

Love It or List It, all new

38:56

Monday night at 10. See it first on

38:58

HGTV and stream next day on Max.

39:00

Just give up your day job. No. Welcome

39:07

back. As the world mourns the loss

39:10

of Pope Francis, a deep sense of

39:12

sorrow is felt in the Holy Family

39:14

Catholic Church in Gaza City, a community

39:16

the Pontiff spoke with every day over

39:18

18 months of this war for the

39:20

Christian Palestinians who take refuge there. His

39:22

calls were a ray of hope and

39:24

a reminder that they hadn't been forgotten.

39:27

And Jeremy Diamond has our report. You

39:29

soon. For

39:33

the last 18 months of

39:35

his life, this was Pope

39:37

Francis' nightly ritual. At 8pm,

39:39

a call to war torn

39:41

Gaza. From

39:51

the third day of the

39:53

war, until two days before his

39:55

death, Pope Francis spoke nightly

39:57

with the Holy Family Church. Forging

40:01

a special wartime bond that

40:03

priests and parishioners of Gaza's

40:06

only Catholic Church won't ever

40:08

forget. Daily he called

40:10

us to ask for peace,

40:12

to pray for peace and

40:14

to give the blessing for

40:16

all Gaza people and for

40:19

all the Palestinians. He

40:23

spoke to us with a father's

40:25

anxiety for his children, church leader

40:27

George Anton recalled. He would

40:29

reassure us checking if we had eaten, if

40:31

we had something to drink, if we had medicine,

40:33

how the children were feeling, how the mothers

40:35

were coping. The relationship

40:37

drew the Pope closer to the

40:40

plight of Gaza's civilian population

40:42

and informed his outspoken criticism of

40:44

Israel's attacks. Yesterday,

40:49

children were bombed. The Pope

40:51

decried in December. This

40:53

is cruelty. This is not war. I want

40:55

to say this because it touched my heart.

40:58

The Pope also regularly called

41:00

out rising anti -Semitism and demanded

41:02

the release of Israeli hostages,

41:04

including in his final address

41:06

on Easter Sunday, in which

41:08

he called for a ceasefire

41:10

one last time. Inside

41:15

Gaza's holy family church, one of

41:17

the many communities Pope Francis touched

41:19

gathers to pray for his soul

41:21

and for the world to see

41:23

them as Francis did. My

41:26

message to the world is

41:28

to look at Gaza with

41:30

the same eyes through which

41:32

Pope Francis viewed it. Eyes

41:34

of truth, justice, peace, love.

41:37

Eyes that saw the people of

41:39

Gaza as deserving of life with

41:41

dignity, justice and independence. From

41:45

this small church in Gaza,

41:47

a prayer against the scourge of

41:49

indifference, which Pope Francis called

41:51

the greatest sickness of our time.

41:54

Jeremy Diamond, CNN, Jerusalem.

41:58

Now, on the bigger and broader

42:00

issue, the fight between the

42:02

Trump administration and higher education in

42:04

America is escalating. This week,

42:07

Harvard University filed a lawsuit against

42:09

the administration for freezing $2

42:11

billion in their federal funds, accusing

42:13

the government of trying to,

42:15

quote, gain control of academic, academic

42:17

decision -making at Harvard. But it's

42:19

far from collective action. In

42:21

Florida, a very different approach

42:24

is developing, with several colleges

42:26

and universities signing agreements with

42:28

ice to carry out immigration

42:30

enforcement on campuses. The

42:32

administration justifies much of this

42:34

as cracking down on antisemitism on

42:36

campus in the wake of

42:38

major protests last year over the

42:40

war in Gaza. But for

42:42

some Jews, it is increasingly looking

42:44

like a dangerous weaponization of

42:46

antisemitism. Sharon Brouse is a

42:49

prominent rabbi in Los Angeles.

42:51

And last year, she visited some

42:53

protests herself. Now she's warning

42:55

that these campus crackdowns detention and

42:57

deportations are, quote, not going

43:00

to protect Jews, we're being used.

43:02

Welcome to our program, Rabbi Brous.

43:04

Welcome back to the program. You're in

43:07

California. Can I just

43:09

start by asking you just to

43:11

comment on what you heard from

43:13

our correspondent and also from Pope

43:15

Francis, who regularly talked about the

43:17

hostages who are still there, the

43:19

civilians who are being attacked, and

43:21

basically said also that to be

43:23

anti -Semitic is to be anti -Christian.

43:27

That's right. I mean, first

43:29

of all, this is such a

43:31

loss and may his memory always be

43:34

a blessing. This pope was a

43:36

model for us of what it means

43:38

to be a faith leader and

43:40

a moral leader who cared deeply for

43:42

human suffering. He cared deeply about

43:44

human beings and he said, frequently that

43:46

the dream of peace is a

43:48

dream for both Palestinians and Israelis. He

43:51

called, as you said, for the

43:53

return of the hostages. There's still 24

43:55

God -willing living hostages, 59 hostages still

43:57

held in Gaza. And there's catastrophic

43:59

loss and suffering among the Palestinian population

44:01

in Gaza every day. And this

44:04

is a pope who cared so deeply.

44:06

And that was what drove, I

44:08

believe, his desire to see this war

44:10

end. He believed that there was

44:12

a different kind of future. possible

44:14

for Israelis and Palestinians and I

44:16

only hope and pray that more

44:18

people could hear his voice and

44:20

his plea. Let's just

44:23

broaden it out as we as

44:25

we just sort of suggested particularly

44:27

because I was interested by some

44:29

of your sermons to your congregation

44:31

and some of the things you've

44:33

written and said about the current

44:35

showdown between the Trump administration and

44:38

and higher education, universities. So

44:41

I sort of laid it

44:43

out a little bit. We know

44:45

what's going on at Harvard.

44:47

There's a big battle going on

44:49

there. We know that other

44:51

universities like Columbia essentially didn't fight

44:54

back. And we see these

44:56

students. who, yes, were at protest,

44:58

being essentially taken away and

45:00

detained without due process and no

45:02

charges filed. I'm interested with

45:04

how you are feeling about this,

45:06

and also there is a

45:08

division within America's Jewish community over

45:10

the efficacy of this. Right. Right.

45:15

I mean, I think you laid it out

45:17

really well. There is

45:19

an antisemitism problem that we're seeing

45:21

right now, a surge of antisemitism. A

45:23

lot of it on the

45:25

campuses, we saw a year

45:27

and a half of humiliation,

45:30

harassment, bullying, threats, and some

45:32

calls to violence on some

45:34

of the campuses. Not

45:36

all of the campuses and not all

45:38

of the protests are driven by antisemitism. Some

45:40

of them are also driven by a

45:42

genuine and sincere desire to see an end

45:44

to a terrible and, as I said, catastrophic

45:47

war. But the universities,

45:49

many of them failed to address

45:51

the needs of Jewish students

45:53

to feel safe on campus and

45:55

to create environments that were

45:57

conducive to learning for everybody. And

46:00

the administration stepped right

46:02

into that void and that

46:04

vacuum. And these are

46:06

very draconian actions that are

46:08

not intended to keep

46:10

Jewish students safe. But they're

46:12

using Jewish lack of

46:14

safety as a pretext to

46:16

enter into this space.

46:19

And I believe it's very

46:21

clear, pursue an anti -democratic

46:23

measures, including... attacks on

46:25

higher education, the dismantling of

46:27

democratic institutions, a rollback

46:29

on civil rights, and other

46:31

elements that will be very dangerous,

46:33

not only for Jewish students,

46:36

but really for all of us,

46:38

first and foremost, for the

46:40

Palestinian students that are now being

46:42

detained and may be deported,

46:44

but also for all of us.

46:47

Timothy Snyder has said so

46:49

clearly, when universities are

46:51

attacked, never in the best interest

46:53

of the Jews. So the fact

46:55

that they're claiming that this is

46:57

to support my kids and my

46:59

community is just, it's just false.

47:01

And we're being asked now to

47:04

make a false choice between Jewish

47:06

safety on one hand and protection

47:08

of our democracy on the other. And

47:10

we just can't be forced into

47:12

that kind of decision. There's no reason

47:14

to be. We can be safe

47:16

and we can support and sustain a

47:19

really thriving democracy right now. And

47:21

these actions are going to endanger

47:23

both of those goals. You know,

47:25

I still find it really interesting

47:27

that there is a division amongst

47:29

the US Jewish community. I'm

47:31

just going to play a little

47:33

bit from Jonathan Greenblatt, who's the

47:36

head of ADL, who's pretty much

47:38

largely supported the deportation of Mahmoud

47:40

Khalil, but also saying that, you

47:42

know, overreach potentially is happening in

47:44

the government's approach to Harvard. This

47:46

is what he told CNN last

47:49

night. Okay,

48:04

well that didn't go as far as

48:06

I thought it was going to be, but

48:08

he was saying we're not defenders of

48:10

everybody. I think he was saying Hamasniks. I

48:12

really need to say that if you

48:14

take Mahmoud Khalil, who's one of the ringleaders

48:16

at Columbia based on his conduct, we

48:18

thought he was a very problematic individual. You

48:21

know, there's been no charges filed. I

48:23

mean, surely the evidence is right there. The

48:25

proof is in that fact. And

48:28

the pictures of the young

48:30

woman, the Turkish student, who was

48:32

lifted from Tufts by basically

48:34

plain clothes, ice agents and

48:36

unmarked cars, I think shocked a lot of

48:38

people. But I guess I'm

48:40

trying to ask you because

48:42

there are certain Jewish groups in

48:44

the U .S. who have a

48:46

database and are essentially allowing

48:48

the government, groups like Canary Mission

48:50

and VETA USA, their pro -Israel

48:52

organizations, they've been assembling a

48:54

database of students and scholars who

48:56

criticize Israel. And now they

48:58

say that the White House is

49:00

using their blacklist. Where

49:02

is this going to end? I

49:06

don't know where this is

49:08

going to end. I mean, I

49:10

can tell you the historians

49:13

warn us that this is exactly,

49:15

these are the foundational steps

49:17

toward tyranny, toward totalitarianism, which obviously

49:19

will render all of us

49:21

in this country and around the

49:23

world less safe. without

49:25

speaking specifically to the individual cases

49:27

of the students that so far

49:29

have been detained, and we know

49:31

of several of them so far. As

49:34

you said, we have heard of

49:36

no criminal charges that have been leveled

49:38

against these students. There might be

49:40

information that we don't yet know, but

49:42

one of them in particular who

49:44

was detained the other day from Columbia

49:46

has been lifted up as a

49:48

peace builder, somebody who's been meeting for

49:50

the last four months a Palestinian

49:53

from the West Bank with Israeli students

49:55

at Columbia University. trying to put

49:57

forward a vision of what peace could

49:59

look like. So this just rings

50:01

of authoritarianism and strikes me as incredibly

50:03

dangerous. And you've lifted up some

50:05

of the very right -wing organizations in

50:07

the United States, but I want to

50:09

share that Many of the mainstream

50:11

Jewish organizations have spoken out very clearly

50:13

and unequivocally against this. We have

50:15

a very strong neemolar first. They came

50:17

for the socialists memory that's built

50:19

in and we understand that when plainclothes

50:21

officers approach a student on her

50:23

way to Iftar at Tufts and and

50:25

grab her and throw her in

50:28

a van that that does not bode

50:30

well for democracy and that leaves

50:32

not only that student but all of

50:34

us less safe and that's something

50:36

were quite concerned about. And of course,

50:38

you have, as I said, been

50:40

to some of the protests and you

50:42

had problems, as you told us

50:44

on our air, with some of what

50:46

was going on as you enumerated

50:48

just before. But the question

50:50

is, you see, where... There

50:52

seems to be sort of double

50:54

standards. You know, Ben

50:56

Gavir, who is the extreme

50:58

right -wing minister of police

51:01

in Israel, has been invited

51:03

to speak at Yale. And

51:05

he was scheduled to attend sort of

51:07

off -campus events and we don't know

51:09

what's going on, but he's been, you

51:11

know, this is a guy who's actually

51:13

been convicted of incitement to racism, supporting

51:16

a terrorist organization. You know, and

51:18

joining him is an extremist settler

51:20

who's convicted of national security offenses. an

51:22

elderly Palestinian, and they were

51:24

all, a lot of them were sanctioned under

51:26

the Biden administration, but those sanctions have been

51:28

lifted. You know, this

51:30

kind of thing, do you

51:32

think it sets up a dangerous

51:34

double standard that then people

51:36

don't take any of it seriously?

51:40

Yeah, absolutely. This is one

51:42

of the great dangers of

51:44

exploiting anti -Semitism and legitimate Jewish

51:46

trauma and fear and concern

51:48

for our safety in order

51:50

to advance anti -democratic measures.

51:52

If everything is anti -Semitic, then

51:54

nothing is actually anti -Semitic.

51:56

We can't actually address the

51:58

real problems if we if

52:00

we argue that everything is

52:03

a problem. Standing in

52:05

solidarity with Palestinians and expressing

52:07

tremendous grief over Palestinian suffering does

52:09

not render a person anti -Semitic.

52:11

Anti -Semitism is real and anti

52:13

-Semitism it poses great threat not

52:15

only to Jews but to

52:17

our democracy and our whole society

52:19

and we cannot address it

52:21

if we treat everyone. everywhere, like

52:23

they're an anti -Semite. And so

52:25

this is extremely dangerous for

52:27

us. And this is why most

52:29

American Jews really oppose what's

52:31

happening right now. They also, by

52:34

the way, really strongly oppose

52:36

Ben -Gveer, Smotrich, and the hard -line

52:38

ultra -nationalist government that's now ruling

52:40

Israel. There was great opposition

52:42

to Ben -Gveer being invited to

52:44

speak in the United States at

52:46

all. And so this is

52:48

not normal what's happening now. And

52:50

we have to continue to

52:52

use our voices to cry out

52:54

against the normalization of something

52:56

that should not ever be treated

52:58

as normal. Incredibly important distinctions

53:00

that you're making there. Thank you,

53:02

as ever, Rabbi Sharon Browse.

53:05

Thank you. And that is it

53:07

for us. Thanks for watching and goodbye from London. the

53:16

fallout from President Trump's so -called

53:18

Liberation Day with global tariffs and

53:20

the resulting rising tensions with China.

53:22

We'll be out of business before

53:24

the end of the year if

53:26

things continue on this path. So

53:28

yeah, what exactly is this path

53:30

that we're on? What does this

53:32

mean for you and your finances? And

53:35

is it possible to get clarity in

53:37

the chaos? Listen

53:39

to the assignment with me, Audie

53:41

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53:43

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