0:00

This episode is brought to you

0:02

by Lifelock. Not everyone is careful

0:05

with your personal information, which might

0:07

explain why there's a victim of

0:09

identity theft every five seconds in

0:11

the US. Fortunately, there's Lifelock. Lifelock

0:13

monitors hundreds of millions of data

0:16

points a second for threats to

0:18

your identity. If your identity is

0:20

stolen, a US-based restoration specialist will

0:22

fix it, guaranteed or your money

0:24

back. Save up to 40% your

0:27

first year by visiting lifelock.com/ apply.

0:33

Hello everyone and welcome to

0:35

Amanpour. Here's what's coming up. For

0:37

all of us and for

0:40

this, the people was a

0:42

big encouragement to know that

0:44

the Pope himself is calling

0:46

us every day. Gaza grieves

0:48

Pope Francis. I speak with

0:50

a priest there about nightly

0:52

calls from the Vatican. Then, we

0:54

are no longer able to

0:56

do any kind of programming humanitarian

0:58

or otherwise with U .S. government

1:00

funds. As the White House

1:02

slashes foreign aid, the real -life

1:04

impacts are felt in Afghanistan. The

1:06

International Rescue Committee, Shireen

1:08

Ibrahim joins me from Kabul. And...

1:11

For me as an artist, you know, one

1:13

point is like, wow, my play is really

1:15

relevant. Also, she's really scary. Playwright

1:17

Ryan Calle Cameron brings us

1:19

back to 1950s Hollywood

1:22

and Sidney Poitier's formidable fight

1:24

against McCarthyism. Also ahead...

1:26

Well done, Lawrence. It seems

1:28

the responsibility for the conclave falls upon

1:30

you. Conclave,

1:32

the award -winning movie that lifted the

1:34

veil on how the Catholic Church

1:37

selects a new pope. My conversation

1:39

with director Edward Berger. Welcome

1:58

to the program, everyone. I'm Christiane Amanpour

2:00

in London. It's been a week

2:02

of mourning and reflection after

2:04

the death of Pope Francis on

2:07

Monday. His legacy will be

2:09

as a bridge in the great

2:11

church struggle between conservative and

2:13

more liberal reforms, but also... importantly,

2:15

an increasingly lonely voice for

2:17

humanity and a moral authority. A

2:20

pontiff who put his flock first,

2:22

engaging with Catholics all over the

2:24

world, even a tiny population living

2:26

in the midst of war -torn

2:28

Gaza. From the beginning, Francis

2:30

condemned the Hamas attack on Israel,

2:32

called for the hostages' release,

2:34

and spoke against rising anti -Semitism.

2:37

He was an outspoken critic as

2:39

well of Israel's siege on

2:41

the enclave, repeatedly calling for an

2:43

end to the conflict and

2:45

the human suffering in Gaza. And

2:47

for the last 18 months

2:49

of his life, he called Gaza's

2:51

only Catholic Church every night. The

2:54

final one on Saturday lasted 30

2:56

seconds, just enough time to say,

2:58

Hello and ask if everyone was

3:00

okay. Now, one of

3:02

those parish priests, Father Carlos Ferreiro,

3:04

joins me from Gaza. Father

3:07

Carlos Ferreiro, welcome to the program.

3:09

How are you feeling right

3:12

now? Hello

3:14

everybody and thank you for inviting us here.

3:18

Well, we are affected, of course,

3:20

by the situation and by

3:22

the news. We know Pope Francis

3:24

passed away and the Church

3:27

is now mobilizing on prayers for

3:29

Pope Francis' eternal rest,

3:31

but also for the election of the

3:33

new Pope. Those are the

3:35

purposes of our prayers all the time.

3:38

But in very particular way, we

3:40

are praying for peace. We are

3:42

praying for this situation to stop. that

3:45

a lot of humanitarian help needed

3:47

to maybe come in and that we

3:49

may have a way forward. You

3:51

know, Father, you talk about

3:54

humanitarian aid. Every day we

3:56

get a message from the people of

3:58

Gaza and the Palestinian people saying

4:00

that, you know, it's now more

4:02

than 50 days of a total

4:04

siege, no bread, no

4:06

water, no medicine. How

4:08

is that affecting your Christian community

4:10

there, your Catholic community, and everybody

4:12

else who you are in touch with? Yes.

4:17

Well, that is a real problem because, you

4:19

know, I learned since

4:21

I was here. In 15

4:24

days, I will be

4:26

one full year inside here,

4:28

the compound with all

4:30

the refugees. We are about

4:32

nearly 500 people now. And

4:35

here the traditional way of

4:37

eating is with bread. You

4:40

know, sometimes we use bread to accompany

4:42

the food we are eating, but I

4:44

could see that many people here, most

4:46

of the people, they eat bread

4:48

with the food that they are

4:50

having. So not having bread is

4:53

really shocking. It's a real need

4:55

for the people. You know, it

4:57

was notable that one of Pope

4:59

Francis, in fact, maybe his last

5:01

call that was lasting only 30

5:03

seconds, asked, You know, people,

5:05

were they eating? What were they

5:07

eating? He was

5:09

pretty concerned about your

5:11

daily needs. Yes,

5:15

indeed he was. Every time he

5:17

called, he said, how

5:19

are you talking to Father Yusef

5:21

or to one of us? How

5:23

are you first? Then the

5:25

sister. And then he would say,

5:28

how is the people? How are the people?

5:30

Are they okay? Are they happy? Are they, what

5:32

do they need? And like this,

5:34

every time, in every call. And

5:36

the last time he called was on

5:38

Saturday, the Holy Saturday for us. And

5:41

he has the same questions,

5:43

of course. Father, how did

5:45

this start? What made the

5:47

Pope decide every single night at

5:49

8 p .m. he would call

5:51

the Catholic community in Gaza? He

5:54

understood that here in Gaza, because

5:56

of the war situation, and

5:59

having a Christian community so

6:01

small compared to the general

6:03

population imagine this 2 .3 million

6:05

inhabitants here in Gaza and

6:07

we are only 1000 and

6:09

something Christians nowadays we are

6:11

even less because some have

6:13

gone out some have being

6:15

killed or died no so

6:17

the community is very small

6:19

and I'm sure he he

6:21

thought we were It needs

6:23

to have a company a

6:25

word encouragement like that for

6:27

all of us and for

6:29

this the people was a

6:31

big encouragement To know that

6:33

the pope himself is calling

6:35

us every day people came

6:37

to say this when he

6:39

was reaching 8 p .m.

6:41

People local time he they

6:43

would say this is the

6:45

hour of the pope the

6:47

hour of the pope and

6:49

and try to come close

6:51

to the prince yeah to

6:53

the priestly house to to

6:55

hear something about the call

6:57

and sometimes in the video calls

6:59

we also greet the Pope,

7:01

we show the people, the people

7:03

were greeting the Pope and

7:05

the Pope greeting the people or

7:07

things like this many times.

7:10

So it was really a pastoral

7:12

thing and I could say

7:14

the Patriarch of Jerusalem, Cardinal Piro

7:16

Batista, Pizzabella. did the

7:18

same. I want to read something that

7:20

he said. He said, this is the

7:22

cardinal. I was very surprised that they

7:24

were the ones who taught me a

7:26

lesson, talking about your parishioners there. I

7:29

will never forget their steadfast faith, carried

7:31

with heartwarming smiles, left a mark on

7:33

me and my life. I saw hope

7:35

and optimism in their eyes. They told

7:37

me, we will stay here as long

7:39

as the church stands with us. We

7:41

are not afraid. And he

7:43

said the Cardinal, I was really

7:45

impressed by the attitude. It was

7:47

such a courageous and faithful attitude

7:49

under siege and bombardment and war.

7:52

What have you learned from the people

7:54

who you've shared this last year

7:56

with? They trust in the church a

7:58

lot. They know the issue

8:00

that the pope was calling or

8:02

the patriarch was so close. And

8:04

they call this the house of

8:06

Jesus. So they say, let

8:08

us refuge there. We take refuge in

8:10

the house of Jesus. Where

8:13

do we go? There's

8:16

no any secure place, safe place

8:18

here in Gaza now. But they

8:20

say, well, we better be in

8:22

the house of Jesus. That's

8:24

amazing. This

8:26

is what we call in the

8:29

Gospel language, we say the simplicity of

8:31

the faith. We believe. We

8:33

believe God is protecting us.

8:35

We believe God has given us

8:37

the angels to accompany and

8:39

protect us. And all the people

8:42

are having that. Was your

8:44

church spared bombardment? Obviously, so many

8:46

mosques were bombed, so many

8:48

civilian structures, hospitals, schools, etc. were

8:50

bombed. All the Israelis saying

8:52

they were looking for Hamas. Was

8:54

your church spared? Our compound

8:57

was bombed, bombarded also. I

8:59

think it was January

9:01

2024, when they

9:04

bombed the site of

9:06

what you call a home

9:08

of peace, where the

9:10

sisters of Mother Teresa of

9:12

Calcutta have a home

9:14

of disabled children. There

9:16

are still 50

9:18

people, and a tank

9:20

threw bombs there, and

9:22

they destroyed the generator, they

9:24

destroyed the fuel tank, they

9:27

destroyed... part of the building.

9:30

And then in that month, also

9:32

December or January, we

9:35

had snipers around

9:37

our compound. I

9:40

was not inside yet. I came in

9:42

in May, but we know this for

9:44

a fact. And they shot

9:46

dead two people inside our

9:48

compound. The old lady who came

9:50

out of the room going to the

9:52

toilet, and then she was shot. And

9:55

when the daughter saw that, she

9:57

tried to help the mother and then

9:59

the second person was shot again. And

10:01

these were snipers from who? From where? From

10:04

the IDF, Israeli

10:06

Defense Force, yes. Well,

10:09

listen, Father, you are all very,

10:11

very strong and you are committed and

10:13

we're really pleased to have your

10:16

perspective and to be able to

10:18

talk to you, particularly your reflections about

10:20

what the Pope did for you

10:22

for all these many, many months of

10:24

this terrible, terrible war. Thank you,

10:26

Father. God bless you. Thank

10:28

you too. Thank you for inviting

10:30

us. At the time

10:32

of the incidents, the IDF told

10:34

CNN that it was investigating them

10:36

and it was operating against Hamas

10:38

terrorists in the area. And

10:41

in Pope Francis' final Easter message

10:43

the day before he died, he

10:45

prayed for, quote, the light

10:47

of peace to radiate throughout the

10:49

Holy Land and the entire

10:51

world. But there is no end

10:53

in sight for this war

10:56

on Gaza. As Israel's far -right

10:58

finance minister Smotrich says, bringing the

11:00

hostages back is not the

11:02

most important goal. Destroying Hamas remains

11:04

the priority. Later

11:06

in the program, retrograde, the

11:08

West End plays showcasing Sidney

11:10

Poitiers' battle against the Red

11:13

Scare. I speak with the

11:15

playwright Ryan Calle Cameron about

11:17

the uncanny parallels today. Welcome

11:28

back. Secretary of State Marco

11:30

Rubio has announced major plans

11:32

to overhaul the State Department,

11:34

including closing an office advancing

11:36

American values abroad, as

11:38

well as nearly 30 overseas

11:40

embassies and consulates. Another blow to

11:42

America's soft power around the

11:44

globe. Meantime, March of the World

11:47

is already suffering from Trump's

11:49

crippling cuts. to USAID, the foreign

11:51

aid agency that provides nearly

11:53

half the globe's humanitarian relief, or

11:55

it did. One of the

11:57

worst hit is Afghanistan. Medical

11:59

services are dwindling. Millions are

12:01

facing malnutrition. And Shirin Ibrahim

12:03

is the International Rescue Committee's

12:05

country director for Afghanistan overseeing

12:07

22 clinics. She joined me

12:10

from there to discuss the

12:12

devastating impacts, especially for the

12:14

most vulnerable, the women and

12:16

the children. Shireen Ebrahim,

12:18

welcome to the program. Thank

12:20

you, Christian. We find you in Kabul.

12:23

That's correct. How dire is the

12:25

situation for the people of

12:27

Afghanistan right now? It's said that

12:29

some 23 million people need

12:32

humanitarian assistance. So Christian,

12:34

you're absolutely right. 23

12:37

million and counting people,

12:39

whether men, women or

12:41

children, need humanitarian assistance. But

12:44

on top of

12:46

that, we know that

12:49

approximately 16 million

12:51

people are in dire

12:53

food insecurity situations

12:55

and approximately 14 million

12:57

alone cannot access

12:59

basic health needs. As

13:02

you know, Afghanistan is coming

13:04

out of decades of conflict,

13:06

economic instability, Asia's

13:09

largest displacement

13:11

crisis. And on

13:13

top of all of that,

13:15

as I want to allude

13:17

to, we also have the

13:19

sixth largest climate vulnerable country

13:21

in the world. So

13:24

all of that coupled together

13:26

makes for a very difficult

13:28

situation. The aid

13:30

has stopped, because America has stopped it. The

13:32

USAID has been stopped in its tracks.

13:34

I just want to get it clear from

13:36

you, because depending on what day of

13:39

the week you ask what American official, they

13:41

say, well, actually, life -saving aid continues.

13:43

And, oh, well, that you've told us

13:45

has been defunded, but now we're going

13:47

to refund it. What is

13:50

the facts? Because we hear that in

13:52

many parts of the world, That

13:54

aid is not there and there's a

13:56

lot of death and a lot

13:58

of illness and a lot of other

14:00

problems because that aid has been

14:02

so suddenly cut off. So last year

14:04

alone, Christian, the US

14:06

government and the people

14:08

of the United States contributed

14:11

almost 54 % of all

14:13

humanitarian funding to Afghanistan

14:15

to meet humanitarian needs. this

14:17

year that is no longer

14:20

the case and there's approximately

14:22

three billion dollars worth of

14:24

humanitarian needs that will not

14:26

be met. Today

14:28

clearly there was a

14:31

decision to stop

14:33

the funding to restart

14:35

humanitarian life -saving support.

14:38

We proceeded to support women

14:40

children and our clients that

14:42

we serve and then more

14:44

recently that aid whether humanitarian

14:46

or not has stopped. So

14:48

the facts that I know

14:50

of as the representative of

14:52

the International Rescue Committee is

14:54

that we are no longer

14:56

able to do any kind

14:58

of programming humanitarian or otherwise

15:00

with U .S. government funds. It's

15:02

really beggars belief this and

15:04

that the level of chaos

15:06

in terms of the knowledge

15:09

of what's going on or

15:11

the disregard for what is

15:13

happening to these you know,

15:15

previous beneficiaries is really, really

15:17

disheartening. You've also, you

15:19

know, you go into clinics, I've

15:21

been into many in Kabul,

15:23

where I assume they're in the

15:25

best state. But what are

15:28

you seeing in Kabul and outside

15:30

where even less sophisticated means

15:32

are available? So just last week

15:34

I was in Batikut in

15:36

Nangarhar, one of the eastern provinces

15:38

of Afghanistan. I visited

15:40

one of the health clinics that

15:43

the US government was supporting, one

15:45

of the many health clinics supported

15:47

around the country. I'm

15:49

seeing a microcosm of

15:51

what I shared,

15:53

which is difficulties to

15:55

access basic health.

15:58

health services. I met

16:00

a of women who said to us

16:02

that this is our lifeline. It

16:04

is a free service that we have relied

16:06

on for many years. We travel

16:08

one and a half, two

16:10

hours to get here because it

16:12

relieves us of having to

16:14

pay for health support. But

16:17

clearly these health clinics are

16:19

quite overburdened. When I was

16:21

there on that day, the

16:24

registry showed 150 women

16:27

being served at that clinic

16:29

for a range of

16:31

issues that they come for,

16:33

whether it's prenatal care,

16:36

postnatal care, vaccinations for their

16:38

children, nutritional advice,

16:41

psychosocial support. midwifery

16:43

support, the range of

16:45

options that are provided by

16:48

these health clinics are

16:50

really critical because the nearest

16:52

hospital is quite a distance

16:54

and the affordability obviously and

16:56

the medicines that are

16:58

provided through the health clinics

17:00

are critical for survival. This

17:03

life -saving support must continue and

17:05

we're committed to continuing it although

17:07

as I shared we are disheartened

17:09

by the fact that we are

17:11

not able to meet. meet this

17:13

the scale of the need. You've

17:15

sent us some footage which we're

17:17

playing right now. Now this shows

17:19

of the Torcom crossing, which is

17:21

on the Pakistan border, thousands of

17:23

Afghan refugees are now going back

17:25

to Pakistan because of this skyrocketing

17:27

new humanitarian needs since USAID has

17:30

been cut off. And as we've

17:32

said, the UN World Food Programme

17:34

says this could be a death

17:36

sentence for millions. But let me

17:38

ask you this, US officials Say

17:40

the cuts may also

17:42

stoke conditions that prompt people

17:45

to join any such

17:47

extremist groups, the latest one,

17:49

you know, being ISISK. Do

17:52

you, does that factor

17:54

into your situation too? I

17:56

mean, do you know, have you

17:58

seen in the past when

18:00

these kinds of, you know, lack

18:03

of humanitarian assistance creates a

18:05

more radicalized population? Again,

18:08

last week I was at

18:10

the Tour Camp Crossing. The situation

18:12

in the camp that has

18:15

been established is very dire. The

18:17

camp is receiving 3 to

18:19

5 ,000 individuals crossing every

18:21

day. But what I'm

18:23

also seeing is that they are

18:26

quick to... find options

18:28

to leave the camp. The camp

18:30

conditions are very difficult and they

18:32

know that they have to move

18:34

out very quickly. So many

18:36

people decide to connect with loved

18:38

ones in other parts of Afghanistan.

18:41

Whether or not

18:43

these conditions

18:46

are bearable, people

18:48

are happy, it's very difficult

18:50

to ascertain right now because

18:52

of the very quick flow

18:54

in and out. But

18:56

the conditions in the camp

18:58

are very difficult and I would

19:00

hope that one of our

19:02

calls for support is really a

19:04

call to say help us

19:06

to stabilize and help us to

19:08

give hope and help us

19:10

to normalize the conditions for people

19:12

so that they can settle in

19:15

safety and so that insecurity

19:17

does not prevail. And

19:19

one of the ways we can do

19:21

that is to ensure that people are

19:23

able to access livelihoods, they have safe

19:25

shelters. It is an

19:27

opportunity to help stabilize

19:29

rather than push people to

19:32

more radical alternatives. And

19:34

it is kind of extraordinary

19:36

because it condemns a

19:38

whole nation in what's known

19:40

as collective punishment when

19:42

the State Department says that

19:44

it's not restarting funding

19:46

in Yemen or Afghanistan because,

19:48

quote, credible and long -standing

19:51

concerns that funding was

19:53

benefiting terrorist groups, including the

19:55

Houthis and the Taliban. You

19:58

know where the funding is going in

20:00

Afghanistan, right? And you know, I guess,

20:02

who's getting it? How do you respond

20:04

to that? So, I mean we have

20:06

systems in place, we have

20:08

criteria in place, we have monitoring

20:10

mechanisms in place to ensure that

20:13

when we do outreach, when we

20:15

do selection, when we

20:17

do aid provision, it

20:19

is really for the most needy. I

20:21

mentioned the health clinics where we work

20:24

with women and children. The

20:26

situation for them is very dire. And

20:29

so our

20:31

criteria, our monitoring mechanisms,

20:33

our distribution mechanisms, and our post -distribution

20:36

follow -up. which is what we do

20:38

to look at where the aid is

20:40

going and how it's benefiting people

20:42

is very tight. And we are very

20:44

satisfied with those mechanisms and we

20:46

can assure the public that the money

20:49

is being very well spent in

20:51

the right places for those who need

20:53

it most. What would you say?

20:55

Because obviously I've seen all these sacks

20:57

of USAID aid and each one

20:59

says a gift of the people of

21:01

the United States. And now I

21:04

don't know how people are thinking about

21:06

the United States since that life -saving

21:08

gift has been yanked away from

21:10

them. What would you say if you

21:12

could to the Trump administration or

21:14

the people of the United States about

21:16

the needs? Well, first I

21:19

would say to the people of the

21:21

United States that the tradition of U .S. generosity,

21:23

especially from the U .S. public, is

21:26

one that needs to continue.

21:29

It is not one that

21:31

is forgotten. In fact, it

21:33

is well recognized and it

21:35

is often called a lifeline

21:37

of support. So it is

21:39

very well received and very

21:41

well respected and appreciated. I

21:44

would say to the

21:46

people of the United

21:48

States, please remember that

21:50

this is a humanitarian

21:52

crisis, that people are

21:54

deserving of humanitarian support,

21:57

that this is the global

21:59

community needs to recognize that

22:01

this is a country that

22:03

requires support, stabilization. so

22:05

that the issues of today

22:08

are not exacerbated. I

22:10

don't comment on politics, but

22:12

I certainly comment on the humanitarian

22:15

imperative of the global community

22:17

to come together and continue to

22:19

support the people of Afghanistan.

22:21

And obviously, we know, when you

22:23

alluded to it, that the

22:25

people who suffer the most are

22:27

the ones whose rights are

22:30

really trampled, and that is women

22:32

and girls. What

22:34

is happening right now? I

22:36

mean, what are women able

22:38

to do publicly and maybe

22:40

behind the scenes? Well...

22:43

So you may know,

22:46

Christiane, that there

22:48

have been several directives

22:50

preventing women from

22:52

working and preventing women,

22:54

young girls from

22:56

accessing school above a

22:58

certain age. But

23:01

there are obviously rays of

23:03

hope, glimmers of hope here

23:05

and there in terms of

23:07

our ability. to reach young

23:09

girls, to provide them with

23:11

the necessary support in terms

23:13

of education, as well as

23:16

to support women as they

23:18

develop their businesses at home.

23:20

Women, as you know,

23:22

are powerful, resourceful, and

23:25

we want to continue

23:27

to encourage that through

23:29

whatever small businesses and

23:31

entrepreneurial. efforts that they

23:33

have. So unfortunately it

23:35

is somewhat restricted for women

23:37

in Afghanistan. There

23:40

are bands on work

23:42

and forms of education. However,

23:44

we are able to find

23:47

ways and creative ways in which

23:49

we are able to reach

23:51

and support women and girls. Obviously,

23:53

not at the scale that we

23:55

would like. We recognize as

23:57

well. Last year, I

23:59

believe the World Bank issued

24:01

a study that said that

24:04

the GDP of Afghanistan in

24:06

the next decade could could

24:08

be revitalized by 30 to

24:10

40 percent if women were

24:13

allowed to back into the

24:15

labor market. So there is

24:17

great potential. We'd love to

24:19

capitalize on that potential. And

24:21

we would hate to see

24:24

women and girls continue to

24:26

be set aside from labor

24:28

opportunities, education opportunities, health opportunities.

24:31

and all other opportunities in life.

24:33

One of the tragic byproducts

24:35

of the US administration's basic negotiation

24:37

just with the Taliban in

24:39

order to get out of Afghanistan.

24:42

Thank you so much, Shireen Ibrahim. Thank

24:44

you, Chris John. Next,

24:47

we turn to a dark

24:49

time in American history, rearing its

24:51

ugly head again, McCarthyism in

24:53

the 1950s, where the hunt for

24:55

communists led to black lives,

24:58

exiles and ruined lives. It's

25:00

backdrop to a new play

25:02

here in London by Ryan Calle

25:04

Cameron, one of Britain's most

25:06

exciting playwrights. Retrograde takes an episode

25:08

in the early life of

25:10

Sidney Poitier, the groundbreaking Hollywood actor

25:13

who became the first black

25:15

man to win the Oscar for

25:17

Best Actor. But before all

25:19

that, Poitier had faced a career

25:21

-breaking dilemma and a very ugly

25:23

choice. Ryan Kelly Cameron,

25:25

thank you for coming in. Thank you for

25:27

me. From a busy schedule with this new

25:29

hit, West End Play. The

25:32

thing is, I was astonished

25:34

to read that you didn't even

25:36

know who Sidney Poitier was when

25:38

you started. Yeah, about a decade

25:40

ago. I had heard

25:42

of him. I knew someone that was

25:44

really important. I

25:46

wasn't educated on this man. I didn't know

25:48

he's brilliant. So how much of a troll blazer

25:50

he was or how significant he was about to

25:52

be to my life. You hadn't seen any

25:54

of his films? No, I hadn't. I'd seen clips,

25:56

you know, black and white stuff. I think I

25:58

was at a stage in my career where

26:00

I was like, anything black and white was like,

26:02

oh, that's old. You know? Now

26:04

you appreciate it. Oh, I appreciate it

26:07

a lot more. So what made you

26:09

choose Sidney Poiti? I mean, literally, if

26:11

anybody sees the play, which they do,

26:13

retrograde, it's a case study about McCarthyism. through

26:16

essentially one day just about a meeting

26:18

in an office. 15, 19 minutes. Yeah,

26:20

yeah, yeah, yeah. For me, it was

26:22

a case of like, I hate not

26:24

understanding something. You know, I feel an

26:26

ignorance. So for me, it was like,

26:28

I don't know about this man, but

26:30

he seems to have such significance and

26:32

importance to a lot of people. That's

26:35

the beginning of my research, you know,

26:37

and I was researching a lot of stuff.

26:39

And the more I researched, the more

26:41

I was fascinated by him. And I came

26:43

across this article that he was speaking

26:45

with Oprah about one time that he was

26:48

in NBC, and he almost

26:50

got blacklisted. And I was like, what?

26:52

I'd heard about the blacklisting so much.

26:54

So much of my... Part of the

26:56

artist, I knew that kind of stuff,

26:58

but I never heard of it from

27:00

the perspective of a black actor, someone

27:02

that was already dealing with Jim Crow,

27:05

red lining. And then now

27:07

this, I was like, that

27:09

to me sounds like the beginnings of a story.

27:11

And as I continued to read about what happened

27:13

to him through his memoirs, you know, it started

27:15

to sound more like a thriller. And

27:17

I was like, OK, someone's got. So I've got

27:19

to be right at this. But you know, it is,

27:21

I said to my team, said I was on

27:23

the edge of my seat because I know a lot

27:25

about this stuff. I had

27:27

no idea whether he was going

27:29

to submit or not. So now let's

27:32

get to it. So now let's

27:34

start with one of the early monologues

27:36

from, or dialogues from the play.

27:38

So he's in the meeting with the

27:40

writer who's going to make him

27:42

the star of an NBC program that's

27:45

going to skyrocket his career. And

27:47

there's the company lawyer or the

27:49

production guy. And

27:51

he says, yes, but. So here's what Sidney

27:53

Poetier says about the script that's just

27:55

been handed to him. I'm leafing

27:57

through the script. I'm like, Marty,

27:59

don't understand. I don't understand what

28:01

the part is. He says, buddy,

28:04

it's Tommy. He's offered

28:06

you Tommy. See,

28:09

I think about that moment a lot. I

28:11

didn't even assume when being offered

28:13

something even from a friend that

28:15

I would be one of the

28:17

central storytellers without caricature or stereotype.

28:21

See, I love

28:23

this movie because it

28:25

brings something otherworldly that people

28:27

like yourself cannot even

28:30

fathom. So there

28:32

he was expressing his joy and delight at

28:34

getting this leading role. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

28:36

And then they tell him, but actually it

28:38

comes with some very ugly strings attached.

28:40

It actually comes at a price. So the

28:42

price is? His soul, man. You know,

28:44

it's everything that he, that he is that

28:46

made him who he is, his integrity, you

28:48

know, and he has to sell out. We have

28:50

to give the name of, I'm trying to give

28:53

too much away, but he has to give the name

28:55

of Paul Robson, who is a massive giant of

28:57

a man and icon to him. And

29:00

he has to consider what is more

29:02

important to him, his integrity or moving along

29:04

in this industry that he's a newcomer

29:06

in. And there's a lot more stakes

29:08

in that. Yeah, I want people to see

29:10

it. Because it really

29:13

is. You don't really know if you

29:15

don't know the full story and you

29:17

know that so many did sell out.

29:19

So many people were blacklisted. Charlie Chaplin,

29:21

for instance, was blacklisted. Could

29:23

never, pretty much, could never work again after that.

29:25

So it was really serious. And

29:27

a lot of actors like Sidney Poitier, who had

29:29

no money and had a family and kids, they

29:32

really, they couldn't afford. And

29:35

then it moves on and we'll

29:37

get to the, I don't know,

29:39

the spoiler alert. But there is

29:41

a moment in the play where

29:44

he talks about, and you, well,

29:46

you wanted to pay homage to

29:48

something Sidney Poitier had done in

29:50

an actual film called The Heat

29:52

of the Night, when he stared

29:54

down and actually engaged in some

29:56

physical retaliation. So

29:58

tell us what you were trying to do

30:00

with that. I'm going to play the clip.

30:02

This is The Heat of the Night, Sidney

30:05

Poitier and The Plantation Owner. We

30:07

were just trying to clarify

30:09

some of the evidence. Was

30:12

Mr Colbert ever in this

30:14

greenhouse, say last night, about

30:16

midnight? So

30:24

that slap, it's the slap

30:26

that echoes through generations to me.

30:29

You know, I feel like

30:31

whoever you are, whatever walk

30:33

of life, whatever decade,

30:35

you feel the weight of that. And I can't

30:38

imagine what it felt like for an audience

30:40

seeing that at that time, you know, somebody that

30:42

is being, you know, he's in a position

30:44

where he's always going to be oppressed or he's

30:46

going to be the side character or whatever.

30:48

And he's like, I've had enough. I'm

30:50

slapping back. And I was like, I need

30:52

to get that moment in. And how did

30:54

you get it in for those who haven't

30:57

seen it? I think it's about Sydney taking

30:59

ownership over his image and over the path

31:01

that he is going to take. And a

31:03

moment in the play where he truly becomes

31:05

the man that he was born to be.

31:08

And he gets won over on

31:10

the big bad guy in this

31:12

play, Mr. Parks, which night after

31:14

night gets a massive applause from the

31:16

audience. But I was trying to recreate

31:18

every time I watched that slap. you

31:20

know, it does that to an audience.

31:22

I at the BFI earlier on this

31:24

year, and everyone cheered again, and I

31:26

was like, I want that essence in

31:28

my play, you know, of everybody coming

31:30

together and going, yes, the

31:32

good guy gets his own back at some

31:34

point, you know? And again,

31:36

it is really awful what they

31:38

were asked to do, whether they were

31:40

black or white or male or

31:42

women, you know, they were told to...

31:44

any kind of political affiliation. In

31:46

his case, civil rights, Martin Luther King.

31:49

And then, as you said, denounce.

31:51

And Paul Robeson actually did advocate

31:53

communism for black people over capitalism,

31:55

having seen the failure of capitalism

31:57

in America for black people. He

31:59

had gone to the Soviet Union.

32:01

So again, this is the creative

32:03

tension throughout. Did you write?

32:06

I mean, you didn't write it with today in

32:08

mind. But when you see what's happening in the

32:11

United States today, with

32:13

all of this, actually, they're calling it

32:15

like a new Red Scare, what's happening

32:17

on American campuses, you know, et cetera.

32:19

Do you know what? I did my

32:21

first draft in 2018, right? And we

32:23

were on a killing at 2023. So

32:26

in between that gap was the first Trump administration.

32:28

So there were a lot of things in my head

32:30

when I was writing it of like, if

32:32

we don't... some of the things that

32:35

we're seeing today. Guys, in the future, we

32:37

might actually get somewhere that looks a

32:39

lot like the world in retrograde. You know,

32:41

flash forward five years time and we're

32:43

there. So there's certain lines now that when

32:45

they hit, audiences are like, did you

32:47

write that today? Do you know I

32:49

mean? And it's like, for me as an artist,

32:51

you know, one point is like, wow, my play

32:53

is really relevant. And also she's really scary. She's

32:55

really scary because when I was writing it, I

32:58

was like, you know, it was almost like a

33:00

fever dream. And now it's reality. So

33:03

yeah, it's in the title retrograde, you

33:05

know, it's like if we don't learn

33:07

from some of the things in our

33:09

past then Would you to repeat them?

33:11

And you've been in you've spoken a

33:13

lot about being inspired by a lot

33:15

of Americana American history American culture. Yeah,

33:17

you've taken your work to the United

33:19

States Did the previous one go for

33:21

black boys? No, that's not good. I'll

33:23

play my play to Queen's of Sheba

33:26

had gone. Fine. Yeah. Yeah. So would

33:28

you today? Yeah want to take a

33:30

this play to the United States in

33:32

this climate? I think this play belongs

33:34

in the United States. It feels like,

33:36

you know, when I wrote it, it

33:38

had New York in mind. It's

33:41

got its essence there. The characters are

33:43

there. It breathes that kind of, like you're

33:45

saying, Americana. And I think

33:47

it's, like you were saying, it's more relevant

33:49

now than it's ever been. So,

33:51

yes, I think the answer is

33:53

for that. I'm fascinated by

33:55

also what you said about you

33:58

know, you were kind of an up -and -coming playwright

34:00

when you started. And there was

34:02

a program, a philanthropic program, that

34:04

enabled you... actually keep writing. Tell

34:06

me about it, because I don't

34:09

think it exists elsewhere. It's the

34:11

Office Adopter Playwright Award that is

34:13

created by Sophie and Diana. And

34:15

the intention of it was

34:18

really looking at an industry where

34:20

playwrights often get forgotten, don't

34:22

even have enough money for rent, and it's kind of

34:24

going, OK, cool, we're not going to forget about you.

34:26

We're going to create a community where we're going to

34:28

hold you, adopt you, in a sense, and raise money

34:30

to be able to allow you to write a play.

34:34

Getting commissions are so difficult nowadays. They give

34:36

you, at the time when I did it,

34:38

which was 2018, it was £8 ,000 to be

34:40

able to write a play and I might

34:42

as well have been a millionaire that year.

34:44

It was like paying me to write and

34:46

that gave me the time and the space

34:49

to be able to do my research. I

34:51

couldn't have done it. And this

34:53

award, a playwright, is not just for minorities.

34:55

Oh, no, no, no. It's for anybody

34:57

that's going from any type of hardship, any

35:00

writer that needs any type of help. Definitely

35:02

look it up, a doctor playwright award, yeah.

35:05

I mean, it brought us this play. You

35:07

said you wouldn't have written it otherwise. And

35:09

they're always looking for donations, so... Yeah. Masculinity,

35:13

your previous play for Black Boys

35:15

was about masculinity, and particularly in

35:17

the Black... young community and of

35:20

course adolescents and a lot of

35:22

that is coming out now talking

35:24

about masculinity. How do

35:26

you, what's your commentary on that? How do

35:28

you think that story is being told and

35:30

where your play fits in I guess? I

35:33

suppose for me as an artist I always

35:35

try and you know I'm trying to grab

35:37

the narrative and go well what's my two

35:39

cents on it you know and even in

35:41

something like For Black Boys you know it

35:43

took ten years because half of it is

35:45

me writing as a very young man. And

35:47

the second is me as a bit of

35:49

an older man, you know, as a father,

35:52

someone in my community talking to that

35:54

younger man. And I think for me,

35:56

the narrative often is about look how

35:58

bad these kids are. And I feel

36:00

like we should also look at the

36:02

community in which these kids are trying

36:04

to survive in, you know, the parents,

36:07

whether it's the schools, whether it's the

36:09

police and go, well, what is our

36:11

job? And I think that's a bigger

36:13

narrative. How are we nurturing these children? And

36:16

what influences are they

36:18

getting of masculinity, you know? If you're

36:20

in a violent environment and men are

36:22

very violent in that environment, then no

36:24

wonder why this kid is acting in

36:26

that kind of way, or the way

36:28

that men speak about women. Yeah.

36:31

Do you feel that it is actually

36:33

now part of the conversation in a

36:35

way that you hope when you wrote

36:37

your... 100%. You know, again, seeing how

36:39

the lessons recently with my family, you're

36:41

going, OK, this is something else that's

36:43

kind of... breathing more life into this

36:45

conversation. I suppose, you know, once

36:47

you watch a piece of art like that, the next thing is,

36:49

well, now as a community, what

36:51

do we do about it? You know, for

36:53

sons, as we discussed last time. Exactly. So

36:55

it's very important for me to be able

36:57

to show them positive outlets for them to

37:00

be able to be men, but also they'll

37:02

do it in a very positive way, you

37:04

know. We talk about toxic

37:06

masculinity a lot. So that's great. But

37:08

what's the antithesis of that? You

37:10

know, what does positivity look like? Well,

37:13

an amazing play and not

37:15

giving away the spoiler. Does

37:17

Sidney Poitier accept these ugly strings or

37:20

not? Oh, I can't tell you that.

37:22

I can't tell you that. But he's

37:24

on it there following right now, so...

37:26

Now, it's really great. Ryan, Kelly, Cameron,

37:28

much. Thank you. As always, thank you

37:30

very much. And the play

37:32

is on now at London's Apollo

37:34

Theatre until June. Coming up

37:37

after the break, the real -life,

37:39

upcoming Conclave. And my conversation

37:41

with movie director Edward Berger,

37:43

whose award -winning film, Conclave,

37:45

gives us his cinematic view

37:47

into one of the Catholic

37:49

Church's most secret traditions. A

38:01

young couple inherited their grandfather's

38:04

castle in France. Renovating

38:06

the chateau is keeping my grandfather's

38:08

legacy alive, but it is falling

38:10

apart. The bottom floor is the

38:12

beauty. May I present to you

38:14

this secret passageway. The three floors

38:17

above are the beast. Oh, my

38:19

gosh. Will

38:21

their fairy tale have a

38:23

happy ending? Castle Impossible. All new

38:25

Tuesday at 9 on HGTV. Stream

38:27

next day on Max. Welcome

38:34

back. We turn now to a

38:36

movie which takes you deep inside

38:38

the Vatican's corridors of power. And

38:41

it couldn't be more relevant. Conclave,

38:43

swept up in this year's awards

38:45

season, based on the book by

38:47

Robert Harris, is a gripping thriller

38:49

about the secretive process of choosing

38:51

a new pope. It has

38:53

a star -studded cast, Ray

38:55

Fiennes, John Lithgow, Stanley Tucci,

38:57

and Isabella Rossellini. And viewership

39:00

shot up almost 300 % the day

39:02

Pope Francis died. I spoke with

39:04

the film's director, Edward Berger, here in

39:06

London, when the film was first

39:08

released. Edward

39:10

Berger, welcome to the program. Thank

39:13

you for having me. What was it

39:15

when you read the book or the

39:17

script that made you want to do

39:19

it? The intrigue, the sort of richness

39:21

of this and the corruption involved? Well,

39:23

to me, it played in a very

39:25

similar field to what you're doing every

39:27

day, reporting on politics. It's

39:30

a political film for me. It had

39:32

all the political intrigue of it, so I

39:34

found that very interesting. But obviously in

39:36

a setting that we can sort transpose,

39:39

so we don't have to see another political

39:41

film when we see the news every day.

39:43

So we can transpose it. But there was one

39:45

line in the script that I really loved,

39:47

and it said, in the stage

39:49

direction, not even a dialogue, it said,

39:51

out of the crooked timber of humanity,

39:53

no straight thing was ever made. And

39:56

that was sort of really what we

39:58

wanted to say with the film, that

40:00

everyone has this something crooked. And

40:02

boy do we see it, because

40:04

this of course is the conclave that

40:06

leads to the election of another

40:08

pope after the other one is dead.

40:10

It's an endless and historical event, and

40:13

yet we very rarely see it

40:15

portrayed. You certainly don't see it in

40:17

reality. Where

40:19

did you get your evidence

40:21

or your stories about

40:23

how to film it? Is

40:25

the actual conclave true

40:28

to life? I think

40:30

we have to ask a cardinal because those

40:32

are the only ones that will be

40:34

really able to tell us, but they won't

40:36

because it's obviously secret. They'll probably just

40:38

watch it and go like, oh, this is

40:40

right. I think Robert Harris

40:42

is obviously a very wonderful novelist and

40:44

a great researcher. And we had access

40:47

to all his research. We talked to

40:49

a whole array of cardinals who gave

40:51

us science. And then I had a

40:53

really great religion teacher next to me

40:55

from Rome, Francesco Bonomio, every single day.

40:57

And he was my advisor. And he

40:59

told me, this is what they would

41:02

do. Now, this is the

41:04

prayer. This is the oath. This is the

41:06

way they vote. But at some point,

41:08

he also said, you know what? No one knows. What

41:11

we know, because I've reported on at

41:13

least one election of a pope, is

41:15

that it's the black smoke and the

41:17

white smoke. The white smoke, everybody knows

41:19

it, right? So we wait and wait,

41:21

and there's several rounds in this film

41:23

until you get, or until they get,

41:25

the Cardinals get to a supermajority to

41:27

elect the next pope. What

41:30

I found really interesting

41:32

is the power struggle between

41:34

reformist cardinals and the

41:36

very traditionalist cardinals. And that

41:38

is portrayed, I think,

41:40

pretty well in this clip,

41:42

which is Cardinal Lawrence,

41:44

he is played by Ray

41:46

Fiennes, talking to Cardinal

41:48

Bellini, who is played by

41:50

Stanley Tucci. Let's listen. Father

41:53

Bellini. Aldo.

41:58

Am I the last? Not quite.

42:00

How are you? Oh, well, you

42:02

know, fairly dreadful. Have you

42:04

seen the papers? Mm -hmm. Apparently, it's already decided it's

42:06

to be me. And I happen to agree with them.

42:10

What if I don't want it? No

42:12

sane man would want the papers seen. Some of our

42:14

colleagues seem to want it. What

42:17

if I know in my heart that I

42:19

am not worthy? You are more worthy than any

42:21

of us. I'm not. Well, then tell your

42:23

supporters not to vote for you, to pass the

42:25

chalice. And let it go to him? And

42:27

I could never live with myself. OK,

42:30

so that's interesting. And it's also

42:32

very today. I mean, Pope Francis has

42:34

been the reformer, at least tried

42:36

to be. And he's had so much

42:38

pushback from Cardinals who are much,

42:40

much more traditional. Was that something you

42:42

wanted to focus on? Definitely.

42:44

I mean, we wanted to represent

42:46

the current politics of the Vatican,

42:49

but also current world politics. And

42:51

they're all the same. Explain

42:54

that. Well. You know,

42:56

there's traditionalist or populist

42:58

movements, and there is

43:00

sort of liberals all

43:02

over the world. And

43:04

these parties, we've sort

43:07

of lost the ability to listen to each

43:09

other. Basically, everyone's a fundamentalist in

43:11

their opinion, and they're not really communicating

43:13

anymore. Everyone wants, this has to be

43:15

this way, and the other party says

43:17

it has to be this way, and

43:19

they're clashing constantly. There's

43:21

something I think you said about,

43:24

well, the Ralph Fiennes character, Cardinal

43:26

Lawrence, and the sort of, not

43:28

demons, but the conflicts he has

43:30

within him about his beliefs, about

43:32

prayer, about all sorts of things.

43:34

That's also quite interesting to portray,

43:37

because you always think of these

43:39

people as being absolutely clear in

43:41

their faith and in their main

43:43

storyline. Yeah, and that's what

43:45

really drew me to the film. Ralph

43:47

has one wonderful speech about doubt. about

43:50

doubt versus certainty. And that's also liberalism versus,

43:52

you know, opinions, you know, doubt versus certainty

43:54

and about being very certain about what you

43:56

believe in. And he's not right now. And

43:58

he wants to have a discussion and he

44:00

wants to find it. And that's something I've

44:02

really identified with and why I wanted to

44:04

make the film. Because I think a lot

44:06

of people feel that at some point in

44:08

their lives, it's really, am I doing the

44:10

right thing? Am I in the right job?

44:12

Am I in the right life? And trying

44:14

to find your direction in life as does

44:16

Rafe in the film. So that's something for

44:18

all of us in a way. It's

44:21

obvious that all the Christian churches

44:23

and many other religions, they face

44:25

very deep internal problems. Certainly in

44:27

the Catholic Church and recently, as

44:29

you've seen here in the Church

44:31

of England, very deep

44:33

issues about sexual abuse, about

44:35

the unaccountability of unelected

44:38

power, the resignations,

44:40

the expulsions. How

44:43

did you deal with that in this

44:45

movie, if at all? Yeah, it's not

44:47

a movie about that. No, know. We

44:49

didn't want to do, let's say, an

44:51

investigation of the... It's really a different

44:53

subject matter. So we spoke about it.

44:55

We hinted at it because we obviously

44:57

said we can't do a movie without

44:59

ever mentioning it. That would be sort

45:01

of putting the blinders on. So we

45:03

mentioned it two or three times throughout

45:05

the movie. But there's other movies like

45:08

Spotlight who really investigate that. I think

45:10

it's a subject matter where you need

45:12

a whole movie to dedicate yourself and

45:14

not just sort of a little talk.

45:16

No, no, I understand. But for instance,

45:18

you have one cardinal who is derailed

45:20

because of a, quote, unquote, me too

45:22

incident. I mean, there's, and

45:24

that's in itself a sort

45:26

of conspiracy where another cardinal brings

45:28

this young woman over essentially

45:31

to derail this black African cardinal's

45:33

chances. I thought that

45:35

was very powerful because it talked about

45:37

that issue. But it also, I

45:39

think subliminally there was, if I'm

45:41

not mistaken, commentary about,

45:43

can we really have a

45:46

first black pope? So

45:48

that's an issue. Oh, definitely. You know,

45:50

it's an issue in the church. You

45:52

know, I think there's a lot of...

45:54

I mean, the church has a problem

45:56

in a way, or the Catholicism has

45:58

a problem that used to be all

46:00

Italian. Until 50 years ago, there were

46:02

like, for 500 years, Italian popes. And

46:04

there are a lot of Italians, and

46:06

there's maybe 50, 60 Cardinals now, Italian

46:08

Cardinals, and obviously they want the

46:10

Italian again. They hate anyone from any

46:12

other country, most of them at least. But

46:15

their fraction is not big

46:17

enough to really vote Italian. So

46:19

that is always an issue. Foreigners

46:22

in general in Italy is

46:24

a difficult thing for the church

46:26

to accept. And then

46:29

having an African cardinal is probably

46:31

the worst for some of

46:33

them, unfortunately. So I want to

46:35

ask you because we talked about

46:37

reaction and stuff. whether

46:39

you've heard or what you've seen on

46:41

audience reaction, what has been, what

46:44

have you noticed from audiences online or

46:46

wherever? I don't look, because it's just,

46:48

so I'm glad that you can read

46:50

it to me now. Well, I'm actually

46:52

going to read you a reaction from

46:54

the church. It was released

46:56

last month, as we know, in the

46:58

United States, and as you can

47:00

imagine in the United States, which has

47:02

a significant faction of very traditionalist

47:04

cardinals. This bishop, Robert...

47:06

who's a Minnesota Cardinal, tweeted this, and this

47:09

is just bits of it. If you're

47:11

interested in a film about the Catholic Church

47:13

that could have been written by the

47:15

editorial board of the New York Times, this

47:17

is your movie. Since it

47:19

checks practically every woke box, I'm sure

47:21

it'll win a boatload of awards.

47:23

But my advice is to run away

47:25

from it as fast as you

47:27

can. That's one.

47:29

And then there's Thomas Reese, who's a

47:31

Jesuit, more liberal leaning. He told,

47:33

and he was a persistent critic of Pope

47:36

Benedict. He told CNN, if

47:38

I'm not mistaken, the acting and

47:40

production values were great, but the

47:42

plot twists were bizarre and unbelievable. Answer

47:45

those reactions. Well,

47:47

you know, it's, I mean, there's going to

47:49

be a million opinions and the Catholic Church

47:51

doesn't speak with one voice. As you can

47:53

see, everyone's going to have an opinion. And

47:56

I would say, I

47:59

heard from a lot of cardinals before,

48:01

they said, oh, we're going to watch the

48:03

movie. And I believe that they're

48:05

just going to enjoy it and going to

48:07

say, it's just a movie, as in terms

48:09

of the plot twist. And

48:11

I was speaking about

48:13

fundamentalism earlier, especially in the

48:15

US. I think the

48:17

US Catholics, US in general,

48:20

very often is more

48:22

fundamentalist than the European side.

48:24

And I find it very hard to

48:26

refute or discuss with fundamental because they

48:28

don't really actually want to listen. But

48:31

they also have very vested interests. I

48:33

mean, they really believe that the Catholic

48:35

Church has to still be, I mean,

48:37

probably speaking Latin and all of the

48:39

congregants have to be speaking Latin. It

48:41

is a power struggle. And then there's

48:43

the final twist. Are we going to

48:45

talk about it here? It's going be

48:47

difficult. It is, isn't it? Well, I

48:50

think what we can talk about is,

48:52

I mean, that there's, you know, obviously,

48:54

women don't have much of a voice

48:56

church. Actually, let's talk about that, because

48:58

you're right. Isabella Rossellini, the wonderful actress,

49:00

daughter of Ingrid Bergman. And I, you

49:02

know, Ingrid Bergman did a famous film

49:04

where she portrayed a nun, if I'm

49:06

not mistaken. Oh, there you go. And

49:09

suddenly to see her daughter look so

49:11

like her was really quite amazing. But

49:13

she also stood up for women. She said, you

49:15

know, we may not have a... but we have

49:17

ears. And she was very

49:19

clear on trying to root

49:21

out some of the Machiavellian power

49:23

intrigues. But again, for Catholics, it's

49:26

like, when are we going to

49:28

have women elected to some position, at least,

49:30

of power in the church? That

49:33

was something you thought about. Absolutely.

49:35

I mean, femininity is a

49:37

really important part of this movie,

49:39

even a person like Isabella. person

49:42

with the biggest aura and charisma in

49:44

the world is relegated to the 30th

49:46

line row in the back of the

49:48

Catholic Church having to be silent. And

49:50

she finally opens her voice and everyone

49:52

kind of applauds her, at least in

49:54

the audience. But she's not

49:56

the only thing, not the only

49:58

element of femininity in the film. When

50:01

you say femininity, do you mean

50:03

feminism or actual femininity? femininity

50:05

and feminism. I mean both.

50:07

I don't want to put words in your mouth. No,

50:09

I would say femininity. But

50:11

as there is no femininity in the

50:14

Catholic Church, I would say that's a

50:16

feminist voice. And

50:18

there's something in the end

50:20

that we can't really talk

50:22

about, but at least Reif

50:24

has seen a crack in

50:26

the foundation of this old

50:28

patriarchy. And there's a light

50:30

that shines through, that crack,

50:32

and that light is the

50:34

hope for change, you know,

50:36

that the future is possibly

50:38

also feminine. Oh

50:41

my goodness, this is really interesting and we're not going

50:43

to say it, but I have to say, as a viewer,

50:46

I mean, you ended it right there. I mean,

50:48

on a cliff, right? You have this big

50:50

reveal and the film ends, and I'm like, oh,

50:52

can we just have some more? What does

50:54

this mean? Oh, the film could have been longer.

50:57

Okay, good. Not about longer, maybe. Yeah. Well,

50:59

it means exactly that.

51:01

It's the oldest patriarchy in

51:03

the world and possibly

51:05

it's time for a change.

51:09

I mean, which structure, what

51:11

has that? And I think

51:13

to be open for that

51:15

change and to open your

51:17

doors towards the feminine voice

51:19

and voices from anywhere would

51:22

be quite interesting and actually

51:24

advantageous for the organization, I

51:26

believe. Or you can imagine

51:28

that many Catholic women believe

51:30

that as well. And

51:32

finally, just the filming, obviously all

51:34

quiet on the Western front, was

51:36

a completely different look. This

51:39

was a lot inside

51:41

structures, clearly. A lot

51:43

of walking and whispering in corridors. But

51:46

it was a lot of light and shade that you

51:48

used. Tell me about that.

51:50

What was that to do? Well,

51:52

there's a director called Alan Pakula,

51:54

who did a lot of political

51:56

thrillers in the 70s, or the

51:59

President's Men from some great Washington

52:01

Watergate scandal movie. And he works

52:03

really well with precision and architecture

52:05

and light and shade. And he

52:07

was sort of the inspiration for

52:09

this movie. And I

52:11

wanted to do exactly

52:13

the opposite than in All

52:16

Quiet, make it very

52:18

sort of... I

52:20

mean, feel the oppression, feel the claustrophobia

52:22

of a conclave. They're locked away for

52:24

a few weeks. The shutters go down.

52:26

The sound is off. You don't hear

52:28

anything. You don't see anything from outside.

52:30

So that by the end, when Rave

52:32

does see this hope for change, there's

52:35

almost a relief when the shutters open

52:37

and the air comes back in and the

52:39

light comes back in. And you hear

52:41

feminine laughter outside, three nuns laughing. That's how

52:43

you end. And so that's the end

52:45

of the movie. And that's sort of maybe

52:47

a little bit of a relief that...

52:49

the progress. Great.

52:52

Well done. Thank you so much.

52:54

Thank you. Thank you for watching

52:56

it. And the real life

52:58

conclave for the next Pope will begin

53:00

in about two to three weeks. That's

53:02

it for now. If you ever miss

53:04

our show, you can find the latest

53:06

episode shortly after it airs on our

53:08

podcast. And remember, you can always catch

53:10

us online on our website and all

53:12

over social media. Thank you for watching

53:14

and goodbye from London. This

53:28

week on The Assignment with

53:30

me, Audie Cornish. This week

53:32

is the White House Correspondents' Dinner

53:34

and needless to say, with the decision

53:36

to cancel the traditional comedy roast

53:38

from the program, the vibes

53:40

are off. What

53:42

is even funny anymore when it

53:45

comes to politics? Who gets to

53:47

decide which comedians are the truth

53:49

tellers of the moment and who's

53:51

laughing now? Listen

53:53

to the assignment with me,

53:55

Audie Cornish, streaming now on

53:57

your favorite podcast app.