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Go to do..com slash slash ancient to

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learn more. girl to learn more. Pickled

1:17

and cannibalized in that order. in that order.

1:33

I'm Jen Mcmeny and I'm Jenny

1:35

Williamson and this is ancient

1:38

Ancient History the Christmas Demons

1:40

edition no scratch that the

1:42

scratch that. The

1:45

Christmas Christmas cannibals It's my favorite

1:47

topic. It's my favorite topic. you

1:49

It's the holiday where you

1:51

eat your babies. we I

1:53

mean, to be fair, we

1:55

did start with which is which

1:58

is about a cannibal eating

2:00

his baby. Child cannibalism is, in fact, fact

2:02

the reason for the season. the season. I

2:04

mean, it though? Yes, it

2:06

factually true that is in the history. I

2:09

true is in the history. I I mean,

2:11

it is in the lore, but

2:13

I think we might have moved beyond

2:15

the cannibalism. That's the hope. Well,

2:17

babies are tender and mild. I am

2:19

so sorry that I told. told lyrics

2:21

to, to Silent Night. I already

2:23

know the lyrics to silent night.

2:25

I've been in I've been since high

2:27

school. high school. but I was known the

2:29

one who lyric to her, lyric to her just

2:31

she just won't let it go. she

2:33

That's because you're just as That's as

2:35

me, just as No, that's because... as me, Jen.

2:37

No, pretending to be above it all

2:40

for the audience, but you're not.

2:42

That's all for the audience, but you're do

2:44

this because I was December because I

2:46

movie all of they just kept

2:48

singing Silent Night over

2:50

and over again And then

2:52

I just kept hearing

2:54

that line. I was like

2:57

Baby Jesus so tender and mild, how does

2:59

does it go wholly infant tender

3:01

and mild and mild. Holy

3:03

infant so tender

3:05

and mild. that's

3:07

not even the tune!

3:10

even the tune! Jenny, it's wholly

3:12

infant so tender and

3:14

mild. Okay, we have

3:16

absolutely no ability to sing on

3:18

key. to what's happening, but also

3:20

at least I'm closer in tune. at least

3:23

I'm closer in tune. I'm on my second

3:25

whiskey and hot and hot cocoa. you know

3:27

what I did, because it's that

3:29

time of that time of out the

3:31

white out the white yeah. yeah, So you must

3:33

excuse us for our off key

3:35

singing and egregious forgetting of the

3:37

lyrics. But the important thing is. important

3:39

thing is as a baby, a was in

3:41

fact Very tender. I mean that's I mean,

3:43

that's actually in the song. No one is

3:45

no one is eating I mean, well, I

3:47

mean. See? See? See? Well, of thinking about like, you

3:49

know, i'm just thinking about like you

3:51

know actually in religion in the a religion

3:53

there is a history when you talk

3:55

about taking communion about eating jesus's body

3:58

anyway i want to move on on. This

4:00

is the time of the all about the cannibalism. into

4:02

of is, but anyway, of please can

4:04

we move on? That's what the episode

4:06

is about, so we're not moving on.

4:08

We're dwelling on this for roughly an

4:10

hour at least. at In my opinion, this

4:12

is the most wonderful time of the

4:14

year the the summer because it's beneficially confirmed

4:16

that I am solar powered. Like a

4:18

lizard. Yes. Like a lizard. is the time

4:20

of the year where I get to

4:22

search into the depths of lore and

4:24

history to find something wild about. about... The

4:27

winter holiday is mostly Christmas at the and this this

4:29

year did not disappoint, I did it, I

4:31

just I feel like I just appreciate

4:33

Christmas more now that I know of the

4:35

heart of Christmas real the real spirit

4:37

of Christmas is child cannibalism. people one of

4:39

those people for I grew up celebrating I grew

4:41

up celebrating Christmas a it has become

4:43

a difficult holiday for me because of

4:45

various family stuff know if you been know if

4:47

you've been listening to this podcast, but

4:49

I don't necessarily wanna go into now.

4:51

now. However, it it just gives a whole

4:53

fresh new life to the holiday and I

4:55

just can't. can't wait to share it

4:57

with everybody I know. I know. Absolutely.

4:59

and as Jenny said, Christmas is a tough

5:01

time of year for a lot of

5:03

people. of And that's why when I

5:05

started the podcast and I started

5:07

digging into the research, I really

5:09

liked coming up with some wild

5:11

creatures some wild creatures beliefs around this year

5:14

that weren't the traditional stuff the

5:16

the traditional stuff that we know

5:18

of in America. America. I would say

5:20

they are. the traditional stuff but not

5:22

necessarily the traditional stuff that Jen

5:24

and I grew up with. that Jen

5:26

not the traditional with. things that

5:28

a lot of people who secular celebrate

5:30

Christmas who at least not in no.

5:32

At not outside of different... and not

5:34

Italy, Bavaria, Germany, Scandinavia.

5:36

I've been all over.

5:39

I've been all over Europe, warms my

5:41

heart to know that people

5:43

have been creating demons and monsters

5:45

around the winter holidays, the solstice

5:47

be they solstice or various or winter

5:49

holidays holidays. Since... the dawn

5:51

of time. And this year

5:53

we're this year we're focusing

5:55

on two different figures, monsters,

5:57

cannibals, if you will. will.

6:00

from Christmas folklore, particularly from the

6:02

folklore of France and Germany, because

6:04

it turns out that for as

6:06

long as people have been celebrating

6:08

Christmas, they've been afraid of cannibalism.

6:10

Or counterpoint, they've been celebrating cannibalism.

6:12

Uh, no. I'm going to have

6:14

to go with no. I to don't

6:16

think anyone is celebrating cannibalism except

6:18

Jenny. So, as always, strap in,

6:20

pour yourself your favorite holiday beverage,

6:22

and get ready for a wild

6:24

ride into the dark side of

6:26

Christmas. In order to really understand

6:28

the Christmas cannibals that we're going

6:30

to discuss this episode, you have

6:32

to understand a little more about

6:34

the Legend of Santa Claus, because

6:36

all of these cannibals or demons

6:38

or monsters, take your pick, are

6:40

directly related to an older version

6:43

of Father Christmas. And that version

6:45

of Santa Claus stretches all the

6:47

way back to the early Christian

6:49

martyr in St. St. all Nicholas.

6:51

St. Nicholas of Myra is thought

6:53

to be the archetype for our

6:55

modern Santa Claus. The historical St.

6:57

Nicholas is believed to have been

6:59

an early bishop of Greek descent,

7:01

born in Myra to wealthy Greek

7:03

Christian parents. Myra during this time

7:05

was part of the Eastern Roman

7:07

Empire and inhabited by Greeks and

7:09

Romans as well as other people.

7:11

All of the sources that refer

7:13

to St. Nicholas were written long

7:15

after his death and are apocryphal.

7:17

However, it is mostly agreed that

7:19

St. Nicholas was a wealthy Greek

7:21

Christian in an area that is

7:23

now part of modern -day Turkey, but

7:26

it would have been inhabited by

7:28

Anatolian Greek people at the time.

7:30

St. Nicholas was thought to have

7:32

lived from March 15th to 70

7:34

AD to December 6th, 343 AD.

7:36

We have very precise dates for

7:38

him. However, Jen says that these

7:40

dates are a little fuzzy as

7:42

they come down to us through

7:44

Christian sources with a distinct perspective,

7:46

shall we say? Yeah, I mean,

7:48

it's very contradictory in some places.

7:50

Like, some places will be like,

7:52

we don't exactly know the dates,

7:54

but we think these are the

7:56

dates because he appears in different

7:58

places, but those places are mainly Christian sources.

8:00

appears to be the Ides of

8:02

March. the Ides Coincidence? I think not.

8:04

I Oh, I wasn't even going

8:06

there, but going I can't now I it.

8:09

unsee it. Don't say his name

8:11

yet. saying anything. saying anything.

8:13

the Nicholas, for the inspiration for

8:15

Santa Claus, was, as we've mentioned,

8:17

who spent who spent much of

8:19

his life and performing good deeds

8:21

and miracles. Little is

8:23

known about his early life and the

8:25

of the details we get about his

8:28

life in general are written long

8:30

after his death. This is because he

8:32

lived a very turbulent time to

8:34

be a Christian. During this period of

8:36

time the Roman Empire was going

8:38

through a lot of turmoil of at

8:40

this point in time in was beginning

8:42

to take a real stronghold on the

8:44

Roman on the Christians and non -Christians were

8:46

in conflict were in the Christians suffered

8:48

persecution from the Roman from the the time.

8:51

at the time. this is a quote from

8:53

britannica.com. Quote, Nicholas's, meaning meaning St. existence

8:55

is not by by any

8:57

historical document, so nothing certain

8:59

is known of his

9:01

life, life except that he was probably

9:03

Bishop of Myra in the fourth

9:05

century. 4th According to tradition, to

9:07

he was born in the ancient

9:09

the ancient of of Patara, and when traveled

9:11

to Palestine and Egypt. he He

9:14

became Bishop of Myra soon after

9:16

returning to to Lakeia. He he was

9:18

imprisoned and likely tortured during the

9:20

persecution of Christians by the Roman the

9:22

Roman Emperor but was released under the

9:24

rule of Constantine the Great. the

9:26

he may have attended the first Council

9:28

of Council 325, 325, where he allegedly

9:30

struck the heretic in his face. face, and

9:32

is is a whole, the Council of is a

9:34

a whole thing in Christian history

9:37

that I... that to get want to but I

9:39

do love the idea that the idea in the

9:41

face. Arius in the guess he was an was an

9:43

Aryan Christian. Alaric of of the I know and know, and

9:45

the Council of Nicaea has there's a nice and creed

9:47

There's like a lot of stuff to

9:49

talk to you. I to talk to you. I love these

9:51

interesting tidbits but it's a whole thing in

9:53

history that we just don't have time

9:55

for. time for we will get there maybe one day

9:57

day and talk about it cause it's a crazy

10:00

soap opera. There's a whole history of

10:02

ancient early Christianity that occurs during the

10:04

time of Alaric of the Visigoths, which

10:06

I just adroitly, or perhaps not adroitly

10:08

at all, sidestepped in my book because

10:10

I was like, not going down that

10:12

rabbit hole. Not relevant to what I'm

10:15

doing. You can criticize me about that

10:17

if you like, but that's what I

10:19

did. So anyway, St. Nicholas was a

10:21

fascinating character. He had the kinds of

10:23

adventures that Julius Caesar would admire. Two

10:25

more and he shows up, look out.

10:27

And he was beloved, St. Nicholas. Not

10:29

the other one. He'd be so mad

10:31

to hear me call him the other

10:34

one. St. Nicholas was known as the

10:36

wonder worker because of all the marvels

10:38

he allegedly worked during his lifetime. And

10:40

this was not, according to historical sources,

10:42

I don't think he shows up in

10:44

historical sources. I think this was just

10:46

in the Christian hagiography, right, Jen? think

10:48

so but it's difficult because this is

10:50

when Christian history and history become like

10:52

kind of put together you know what

10:55

I mean where your Christian monk is

10:57

showing a lot and so it's tough

10:59

we might be able to tell the

11:01

difference on a deep dive but we

11:03

have not done that deep dive so

11:05

so here are some of the miracles

11:07

and they are very short because here's

11:09

the thing I'm planning at some point

11:11

in time to cover St. Nicholas because

11:14

after I did this episode I was

11:16

like this is wild and I need

11:18

to do a deep dive I don't

11:20

think it'll be next Christmas. I have

11:22

something already picked out for that, but

11:24

I will probably get there and I

11:26

gotta save some mysteries. So, allegedly, he

11:28

calmed a raging sea and stopped a

11:30

storm and I just how? But also,

11:33

I'm here for that superpower. Controls the

11:35

weather? That explains the whole flying around

11:37

in the snow in a sleigh situation.

11:39

Okay, I posit you this. Is Santa

11:41

Claus and the old man of Crater

11:43

Lake. Are they one in the same?

11:45

Oh, well the old man doesn't have

11:47

a beard, or does he? Or does

11:49

he? He saved three innocent sailors from

11:52

execution, and again, I support saving the

11:54

wrongfully accused and convicted from executions.

11:56

Good job, and down a

11:58

tree down a tree

12:00

that was allegedly

12:02

possessed by a demon.

12:05

Now, this sounds incredibly suspect to me,

12:07

a demon tree. That kind of feels

12:09

a little bit like more of a

12:11

demonization of the people who worship i.e. pagan

12:13

i .e. other pagan cultures, because a lot

12:15

of different pagan cultures had trees that

12:17

were sacred to them. me, To me, a

12:19

this feels a little bit like a

12:21

Christian monk is showing. showing. I I could be

12:23

wrong, I I couldn't find learned much more about

12:25

this demon tree. I really wanted to

12:27

dig into it, but it was a

12:29

little bit of a rabbit hole that

12:31

I didn't find anything that could tell

12:33

me one way or another what he

12:35

was talking about. me those are a few

12:37

of his flashy works, but two of

12:39

his most famous ones were actually total

12:41

unknowns to his most also me, to both

12:43

of us. So this is a quote

12:45

from an article on National Geographic of us.

12:47

So this is to Santa an the surprising origins

12:49

of Chris Geographic graphic graphic graphicic. Quote, Nicholas

12:52

was neither fat neither fat nor

12:54

jolly, but developed a reputation

12:56

as a fiery, wiry, and

12:58

defiant defender of church doctrine

13:00

during the great persecution when Bibles were

13:02

burned and were burned and priests

13:05

made to renounce Christianity or face

13:07

execution. Nicholas defied these edicts

13:09

and spent years in prison

13:11

before the Roman Emperor ended Christian

13:13

persecution in 313 with the

13:16

the of Milan. Milan. Nicholas's

13:18

fame lived long after his death

13:20

on December 6th in the mid-4th century century

13:22

around 343 because he was he was associated

13:24

with many miracles and reverence

13:26

for him continues to this day

13:28

day of his of his Christmas He

13:30

is the is of many types

13:33

of people, types from orphans to

13:35

sailors to prisoners. to Nicholas rose

13:37

to prominence among the among he

13:39

was the patron of so

13:41

many groups. of so around around 1,200 AD, explained

13:43

of Manitoba historian Jerry Bowler. author of

13:45

Santa Claus, a a biography. He He

13:47

became known as a patron

13:49

of children and magical gift because of

13:52

two great stories from his

13:54

life. from his life. Better better known tale,

13:56

young girls are saved from

13:58

a life of prostitution when young... Bishop

14:00

secretly delivers three bags of gold

14:02

to their indebted father, which can

14:04

be used for their can be used for

14:07

other story is not so well -known

14:09

now, but was enormously well -known

14:11

in the Middle Ages, Bowler said. in

14:13

the entered Bowler said. had just murdered

14:15

three boys keeper just murdered three boys bodies

14:17

their basement barrels. in This

14:19

is awesome. This is awesome.

14:21

the tea I want. the tea I

14:23

for Christmas. This is the content

14:25

that Jenny came here for. for. the

14:27

content I crave. I crave. The bishop not only the

14:29

the crime, but resurrected the victims as

14:32

well. That's one of the things

14:34

that made him the patron saint of

14:36

children is that he continually saves

14:38

children from child prostitution and child cannibalism.

14:40

I bet you didn't know it

14:42

was gonna take that to take did did

14:44

But now you do. do. So, I bet all of

14:46

you, all of you, including me, didn't

14:48

know Claus facts. And I I brought them

14:50

up because they play right into the

14:52

mythology of the two Christmas cannibals

14:54

we're going to talk about. about. Because

14:56

Santa Claus, who was known for his his

14:58

gift giving, or Santa Claus, Satanic Claus, I'm

15:00

gonna use them, going to use them and Father

15:02

I mean. There are distinct little

15:04

differences throughout the time period, but they're all

15:06

pretty much the same. time Anyway. but they're

15:09

all pretty much the saint of children Nicholas is

15:11

the patron the guy we associate with

15:13

and But he's also the patron

15:15

saint of a ton of other

15:17

things the I just wanted to a

15:19

you some. things, and I is a quote

15:21

from to like .edu. It's a great

15:24

list of what he was the

15:26

patron saint of. Quote, St. St. Nicholas

15:28

is the patron saint of sailors,

15:30

merchants, archers, repentant thieves, children, brewers, pawnbrokers,

15:32

and students in various cities and

15:34

countries around Europe. His reputation evolved

15:37

among the as was common for

15:39

for early Christian and his legendary

15:41

habit of secret gift -giving

15:43

gave rise to the

15:45

traditional model of Santa model of

15:47

Santa through Nick, through cintercloths. I like

15:49

that he's the patron saint of saint

15:51

of thieves. thieves. What if I don't

15:53

repent my my thievery? the unrepentant thieves

15:55

don't need a saint because they

15:57

have a have a God that God is

15:59

her. Hermes, right, or mercury. I'm sure

16:02

there are many other tricks to

16:04

gods who are out there, but

16:06

I'm positive Hermes is like the

16:08

patron god of thieves. So Santa,

16:10

or St. Nicholas, is the originator

16:12

of Secret Santa Gifts and your

16:14

office exchange party. I needed this

16:16

elaborated. I wrote a note in

16:18

the original draft of this. Can

16:20

we explain the Secret Santa Gifts?

16:22

What is going on? So, because

16:24

Jenny needed this elaborated and didn't

16:26

understand Santa Claus or Secret Gifts.

16:28

I know I understand that. I

16:30

just don't understand the context of

16:32

ancient Santa Claus, ancient Saint Nicholas

16:34

in the 300s AD. So, Saint

16:36

Nicholas gave gifts in secret, exactly

16:38

like we do today in Secret

16:40

Santa. Those gifts were of a

16:42

trinket nature. St. Nicholas's legend literally

16:44

stems from that one epic story

16:46

of him going to the house

16:48

of the three young girls who

16:50

were going to be sold into

16:52

sex work by their father. To

16:54

be fair, that isn't trinkets. That's

16:56

like a substantial gift. That was

16:58

a substantial gift. Most of the

17:00

gifts that were then later said

17:02

to be given were of a

17:04

more of a trinkety nature. So,

17:06

this is a quote from St.

17:08

Nicholas center.org. Quote. It was the

17:10

custom for parents on the vigil

17:12

of St. Nicholas to convey secretly

17:14

presence of various kinds to their

17:16

little sons and daughters who were

17:18

taught to believe that they owed

17:20

them to the kindness of St.

17:22

Nicholas and his train, who, going

17:24

up and down the towns and

17:26

villages, came in at the windows,

17:28

though they were shut, and distributed

17:30

them. This custom originated from the

17:32

legendary account. of the saint having

17:34

given portions to three daughters of

17:36

a poor citizen whose necessities had

17:38

driven him to an intention of

17:40

prostituting them. Okay, so the secret

17:42

Santa gift was just the prostitution

17:44

dowries. I believe, as far as

17:46

I can find, I believe so.

17:48

I know there are legends of

17:50

St. Nicholas and Cinterclass like wandering

17:52

around giving presents out throughout the

17:54

winter to children, more of like

17:56

what we see. now

17:58

as the legend

18:00

changed the saint to, you

18:02

know, St. Nicholas to Santa clause

18:04

to Christmas to Santa Claus throughout

18:06

the ages. Right, but that's

18:09

like the legend as opposed to like

18:11

the original story which is about this

18:13

prostitution gift situation. As far as I

18:15

can see, I didn't see anything else

18:17

and this quote seems to attribute it

18:19

to that being the case. So

18:21

gonna go with that. I could

18:23

be wrong, but that is what this

18:25

quote seems to say. Yeah, so

18:28

just in case you are confused, as

18:30

as I might be, the original

18:32

St. Nicholas and the 300 AD allegedly

18:34

gave some money to an indebted

18:36

father to keep his daughters out of

18:38

sex slavery and give them dowries.

18:40

And that evolved over time into people

18:43

having a folk legend about Santa

18:45

Claus giving trinket gifts to poor children,

18:47

right? To good poor children, yes.

18:49

It goes from these poor innocents just

18:51

being if the children are good and I

18:53

think the thing that we're going to come

18:55

across a lot in this episode and why

18:57

I'm making this distinction is Father Christmas, Saint

18:59

Nicholas, Santa Claus, Santa Claus, he's here to

19:01

reward children who are good. Children who are

19:04

bad? Well, Father Christmas has someone who travels

19:06

with him who's here to take care of

19:08

those children. So St. Nicholas's

19:10

the legend about that after his

19:12

death, began to take on a

19:14

token appeal. And again, this is

19:16

a quote from St. Nicholas .org.

19:18

quote, The custom in 16th

19:21

Germany is described by Thomas

19:23

Neo -Georgias as follows, St. Nicholas

19:25

money, this is kind of like,

19:27

I guess a lyric poem

19:29

of some kind. St. Nicholas

19:31

money used to give to

19:33

maidens secretly, who that he

19:35

still may use his wanted

19:37

liberality. The mothers, all their

19:39

children on the eve do

19:41

cause too fast and when

19:43

they every one at night

19:45

in senseless sleep are cast,

19:47

both apples, nuts and pears

19:49

they bring and other things

19:51

besides as caps and shoes

19:53

and petticoats which secretly they

19:55

hide. And in the

19:57

morning found they say, that this

20:00

St. Nick... Nicholas brought. That's it. Nicholas,

20:02

primary virtue, came virtue came

20:04

to be seen as generosity to

20:07

children. I how how this poem

20:09

kind of connects the gifts to to

20:11

gifts gifts to children

20:13

maidens also were probably

20:16

children. So his primary virtue, I

20:18

I think I'm still on this quote. quote.

20:20

came to to be seen as

20:22

generosity to children in in the stories

20:24

of rescuing the desperate maidens with

20:26

gold for their their dowries saving three

20:28

children children from an evil fate evil

20:30

fate of being and cannibalized in that

20:32

order. in that order. in France began leaving

20:35

treats on St. Nicholas Eve December 5th for

20:37

for the small children of poor

20:39

families. St. Nicholas's gifts were usually good

20:41

things to eat, eat. apples, oranges, nuts,

20:43

nuts, and eventually cookies and sweets,

20:45

which is really interesting because now

20:47

at least at least an we leave cookies

20:49

out leave cookies out so it's like it's reversed. like

20:51

it's you know, And oranges, and nuts were the kind

20:54

of nuts you would have at this point in

20:56

time. from the this point in time from the

20:58

harvest They were things that lasted a long

21:00

time, so they were really important during this

21:02

time. Well, oranges this particular weren't available in all

21:04

parts of Europe. mean, they were an of

21:06

item that would have been a luxury item.

21:08

And I will tell you something else that's

21:10

interesting. item. We'll talk about what was happening

21:12

during during 14th century or actually a lot

21:15

of the stuff is in the

21:17

is in the But during the the and

21:19

and 1400s that's when the dwellings in

21:21

particularly Bavaria and Germany change from having chimneys,

21:23

like the older, more ancient chimneys

21:25

to having the chimneys like we

21:27

think of today. So So during that

21:29

time period, your chimney would have

21:32

looked more akin to something you would have seen

21:34

out of out of more of I think like

21:36

a hole in the middle of middle of the... of the

21:38

roof? Yeah, and and that's why in that quote, he's

21:40

coming at the windows. But this period in

21:42

time, time, the start to shift to what

21:44

we think of we the modern as the

21:46

modern chimney that Christmas comes down. down. in

21:48

some of these thatched houses, smoke just

21:50

filters up through the thatch. thatch, there

21:52

isn't a a hole. That is how the how

21:54

the legend of St. Nicholas grew. He

21:56

was all about the love and

21:58

saving children from cannibals the se- trade. I mean

22:01

in general the history of the

22:03

saint is glowing and that's what

22:05

you want from the history of

22:07

a scene, right? A glowing righteous

22:09

life, a guy who wants to

22:11

save children from horrors. I'm here

22:14

for this. Yeah, that sounds about

22:16

right. Well, now is when we

22:18

turn to the other side of

22:20

St. Nicholas, to the entourage, the

22:22

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22:24

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22:27

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24:09

first, we're going to look into the story

24:11

of Père Foutard. Père Foutard, and I can,

24:13

you know, speak French with a French accent

24:15

sort of, but it would probably come out

24:17

a bit tortured, so I'm just going say

24:19

it with an American accent. Forgive me if

24:21

you speak French. So Père Foutard is also

24:23

known as the French Christmas Cannibal. He's

24:26

particularly infamous in the French

24:28

region of Lorraine. Père Foutard

24:30

is a fascinating character. Kind of

24:32

a cross between Krampus and our

24:34

next cannibal, Hans Trop. He

24:36

doesn't appear as a demonic goat.

24:38

Instead, he looks like a very

24:40

scraggly man in a black -hooded

24:43

cloak. Yeah, he's not like a

24:45

Krampus. He's not a whole demon.

24:47

He has a long gray beard

24:49

and a cloaked face, kind of

24:51

giving off Odin vibes, potentially Gandalf

24:53

vibes. I mean, yeah, he kind

24:55

of is. Like a disheveled Gandalf. He

24:59

carries a whip, hammer, or

25:01

branches, so BDSM Gandalf. He

25:04

wears big black boots or potentially

25:06

clogs and loves to make a lot

25:08

of noise. He stomps around. That's

25:10

part of his thing. He in

25:12

general can be heard coming from a mile

25:14

away. And the Krampus, he

25:16

also has a sack or a hood. Ready

25:19

to use on the worst of the

25:21

worst children. he will

25:23

kidnap the worst children and presumably

25:25

take them back to hell, or Santa's

25:28

workshop and make dinner out of

25:30

them. This is a

25:32

quote from frenchmoments .eu from an

25:34

article called Père Foutard, unravelling

25:36

the dark side of Christmas

25:38

in France about Per Foutard's

25:40

possible origins. Quote, Two legends

25:42

claim to explain the origin of

25:45

Père Foutard Lorraine. One of those is

25:47

the little gleaners. So these are

25:49

the three little children who got lost

25:51

in the forest and found hospitality

25:53

in the house of a wicked butcher.

25:56

Once asleep, the butcher cut them

25:58

into little cubes and put

26:00

them in the salt... I mean, this is

26:02

I mean, this is Nicholas story,

26:04

right? Essentially, yeah. Years later, St. Years later, buddy,

26:07

St. Nicholas, our buddy, visited confess

26:09

made him confess to this

26:11

despicable act. the Since then, has

26:13

been obliged to assist St. Nicholas

26:15

on his rounds and has

26:18

become the the boogie know know, today, as Pierre

26:20

Futard. The myth has to do

26:22

with the with the of Charles Charles V.

26:24

In Metz. So the the city of

26:26

Lorraine lays claim to the birth of

26:28

the men through a historical dating back

26:31

to 1552. that In that year,

26:33

Charles laid siege laid siege to

26:35

the To mock the Emperor, came

26:37

up with the idea came up with

26:39

the idea of creating a

26:41

grotesque effigy. whip. When emperor with

26:44

a whip. When Metz was

26:46

liberated the following year, was brought

26:48

was brought out again to

26:50

mark the of of St.

26:52

Nicholas. The people of Metz

26:54

readily adopted this ridiculous, ridiculous. Botoc Tanner,

26:56

who who accompanied the the man.

26:58

Can we just pause? So the

27:00

Tanner's Guild decided to guild decided to

27:02

create an effigy of the

27:04

emperor with a whip who

27:06

became known as the buttock

27:08

tanner. and And he accompanied

27:10

the effigy of St. Nicholas. People

27:13

themselves in need to to just

27:15

say, say, fuck you the Charles the I

27:18

And I really love that as

27:20

we go on in this

27:22

episode, there's a lot of times

27:24

when people are just saying, saying,

27:26

you to someone because they're they're

27:28

being unreasonable and it becomes part

27:30

of the Christmas mythology and it's

27:32

just wild. just there's a lot

27:35

of like a lot of like Christmas agro. So

27:37

in other places, I've other places, I've

27:39

seen the tale of and the butcher children

27:41

told a little differently. Sometimes the story

27:43

goes that Parafotard butchered three little boys

27:45

St. that st. Nicholas was visiting

27:47

him but it wasn't years in

27:50

the future not was not long after

27:52

the boys were murdered and st.

27:54

Nicholas resurrected the butchered boys and

27:56

forced paraffortard to repent by becoming

27:58

part of st. Nicholas is entourage. Pretty

28:00

much it's the same story, except

28:02

in this version, the little boys

28:04

get to live. And there are

28:06

two reasons why that version would

28:08

have been more palatable for people,

28:10

because it would have appealed to

28:12

a wider audience, right? Reason number

28:14

one, child cannibalism is dark and

28:17

depressing. Being able to save children

28:19

from death and resurrect them while

28:21

keeping them safe from a cannibal,

28:23

well that gives the saint a

28:25

major halo, right? A real love

28:27

from both the Christians and the

28:29

community, because most people... Agree that

28:31

child cannibalism is not a good

28:33

thing. So one thing we want

28:35

to remind you of here is

28:37

that parapetard kidnaps the worst behaved

28:39

children and either takes them back

28:41

to hell or key detail back

28:43

to Santa's workshop where he eats

28:45

them for dinner. It's weird and

28:47

it's dark and maybe it means

28:49

Santa himself is a cannibal or...

28:51

potentially condones cannibalism. I mean, clearly,

28:53

Santa is condoning this behavior if

28:55

he has this guy in his

28:57

entourage and allows him to eat

28:59

babies in his workshop. I mean,

29:01

is Santa participating in this beast

29:03

of bad children? What about all

29:05

those non-union elves in his non-union

29:07

toy workshop? Is this like the

29:09

company holiday party dinner? Like, what

29:11

is happening right now? That is

29:13

the question. Because... Given what we

29:15

know about Christmas' ancient origins, stretching

29:17

all the way back to Saturn,

29:19

the baby-eating god who is one

29:21

of the reasons for the season,

29:23

this does make a kind of

29:25

really weird sense. Santa punishes the

29:27

child cannibal by getting him to

29:29

work for him. And he also

29:31

gets to reap the benefits of

29:33

said work. Non-union, of course. I'm

29:35

not going to weigh in on

29:37

whether or not Santa hires non-union

29:39

workers. Listen, I want Santa to

29:41

bring me some nice toys this

29:43

year, so I'm just going to

29:45

be... I'm hedging my bets here.

29:47

I see. I've given up on

29:50

that. I'm a knotty child. I

29:52

just don't fit in a sack.

29:54

I just don't fit in a

29:56

sack. So... As I

29:58

mentioned, Santa also

30:00

gets to reap

30:02

the benefits of of

30:04

this work, the the disciplining of kids,

30:06

which is a huge huge check,

30:08

and also he shares in that

30:10

Christmas roast. Am I have I,

30:13

maybe gone too far in my

30:15

hypothesis? in my hypothesis? Or I stumbled

30:17

onto something? something? You decide. Now that you

30:19

that you know roots cannibalism roots

30:21

of Santa Claus, you can't you?

30:23

it, can you? we're I mean, listen,

30:25

we're not gonna do the whole Santa Satan

30:27

thing. I'm not it. it. I didn't say anything

30:30

about Satan. I'm just saying Santa

30:32

Claus himself and cannibalism. I mean the

30:34

association is right there. association as I

30:36

mentioned, So, this doomed soul has a

30:38

crucial part to play in Santa's

30:40

entourage. His job is to meet out

30:42

punishment. If you were

30:44

a lazy or naughty child, you

30:46

would get whipped, hit or

30:48

threatened by this creepy Christmas

30:50

cannibal. Paraphutard became inexorably linked

30:52

to Father Christmas. He was

30:55

the He side. dark side. guy, the

30:57

guy, the punisher. And Christmas was the

30:59

light. Father Christmas handed out

31:01

sweets and toys, pair toys.

31:03

handed out out and and some... Sometimes,

31:05

if you were, know, know,

31:07

not too bad, on the list, list

31:10

really the the bottom, would he

31:12

would give you vegetables, lumps

31:14

lumps of coal, and other

31:16

practical gifts. It's kind of

31:18

a weird scene. So both So both Santa

31:20

and Pair Foutard arrived in town. on

31:22

the same On the same night, the

31:25

St. of St. Nicholas, which was

31:27

December 6th. would be a parade

31:29

with bells and music to

31:31

welcome Father Christmas and Father Christmas, trails

31:33

Parifutard. much like on this night, he

31:35

he appears He is He

31:37

is unleashed to meet out the on

31:39

the of of the towns he visits.

31:41

And this This really strikes me as

31:43

a parallel to Krampus. You know, if

31:45

you if our Krampus episode, which I

31:48

believe we recently re -released, we this

31:50

is kind of similar to how Krampus

31:52

is portrayed in these sort of

31:54

holiday parades. in these I mean, sometimes parades. Yeah,

31:56

I mean, sometimes pair next catamal we're gonna

31:58

talk about, they're we're with. to. Krampus or

32:00

they're linked all together as being

32:02

the same being or entity, and

32:05

they're not. Folklorically, they're different and

32:07

they have slightly different stories. But

32:09

if you're seeing a parallel, that

32:11

parallel is deliberate. It has to

32:13

do with how Christianity spread, how

32:15

the folklore spread, and how the

32:17

different regions adapted to the lore

32:19

around St. Nicholas and also their

32:21

own local legends. It seems like

32:23

Krampus is the lighter version, right?

32:25

Because Krampus doesn't eat the children,

32:27

or does he? Uh, yeah, he

32:29

does. Oh, he does? Oh, I'm

32:32

sorry. Forget I said that. So,

32:34

let's hope that Perifutard, your Christmas

32:36

demon, is feeling merciful and gives

32:38

you all the veggies you need

32:40

to make a hearty stew. Otherwise,

32:42

you might just turn out to

32:44

be the stew for the evening.

32:46

Our second Christmas cannibal comes to

32:48

us from both France and Germany.

32:50

As with a lot of Christmas

32:52

cannibals that I've uncovered, the story

32:54

that we're going to tell you

32:56

isn't ancient. It actually begins in

32:59

the 1400s. Hans Trapp is known

33:01

by another name, the Christmas Scarecrow.

33:03

And if you're thinking Christmas and

33:05

Cannibal Scarecrows shouldn't go together, Hans

33:07

Trapp is here to tell you

33:09

that you are very wrong. Cannibal

33:11

Scarecrow. Like it just keeps getting

33:13

better. Right? So Hans Trapp's story

33:15

is infamous in the French regions

33:17

of Laurent and Elsace. He's also

33:19

been known to make appearances in

33:21

Germany and Bavaria. Hans Trapp is

33:23

a weird and fascinating Christmas icon

33:26

and his story does not disappoint.

33:28

So, let's get down to it.

33:30

According to legend, Hans Trapp was

33:32

a wealthy man. This story goes

33:34

that he lived during the 1400s

33:36

and rose to power as a

33:38

rich, merciless and evil man. He

33:40

was feared by the people of

33:42

Alsace, but material wealth, power, and

33:44

riches weren't enough for him. Oh

33:46

no. He turned to witchcraft and

33:48

started making deals with devils. As

33:50

you do. As one does. And

33:53

started making deals with devils at

33:55

the crossroads. And this went down

33:57

about as well as you'd expect.

33:59

I mean, I think it sounds

34:01

great. But the church found out

34:03

about these, uh, satanical deals, and

34:05

excommunicated Hans Trapp. They stripped him

34:07

of his land, his wealth, and

34:09

his power, and banished him from

34:11

his hometown in Alsace. And as

34:13

you might have guessed, Hans Trapp

34:15

was not happy about this turn

34:18

of events. Forced of Lee Alsass,

34:20

he moved his home to the

34:22

mountains of Bavaria. And... We all

34:24

know that the best Christmas demons

34:26

and baddies come from Bavaria. Am

34:28

I right? Krampus. Hans Trapp found

34:30

life in Bavaria difficult, and he

34:32

decided he was going to go

34:34

full-on dark lord. He devoted all

34:36

of his time to his occult

34:38

studies. He really went down that

34:40

rabbit hole. And the further on

34:42

further he went down the rabbit

34:45

hole, according to the lore, the

34:47

more and more he got a

34:49

hankering to eat human flesh. The

34:51

folklore says that his turn to

34:53

cannibalism was tied to his occult

34:55

studies. But... Well, we can get

34:57

into my theories on this in

34:59

a little bit, because I have

35:01

thoughts. Because once again, this feels

35:03

like a bit of Christian monk

35:05

is showing to me, but we'll

35:07

get into it. I mean, again,

35:09

I don't approve of cannibalism, but

35:12

you know. You would think you

35:14

don't have to say it, but

35:16

on this podcast you do. Yeah,

35:18

but I also think that you

35:20

don't have to. worship the occult

35:22

to potentially be accountable. That's all

35:24

I'm in to say. They don't

35:26

necessarily go together. It's just in

35:28

this instance they are. That's a

35:30

complete coincidence. According to the folklore.

35:32

So, Hans Trapp decided he was

35:34

going to get him some sweet,

35:36

sweet human meat. And his plan

35:39

was pretty simple. Pick a likely

35:41

enough victim, i.e. a child, who

35:43

could be easily overpowered and pounce

35:45

on them. And that is just

35:47

what he did. He dressed up

35:49

as a scarecrow trying to make

35:51

himself look as innocuous as possible.

35:53

This is like... It's such a

35:55

waggy plan, right? I know. Okay.

35:57

Scarecrows aren't creepy enough. Wait for

35:59

it. I know. So we hid

36:01

out in a field and waited

36:03

for the shepherd's 10-year-old son to

36:06

walk past. A lot of 10-year-olds

36:08

who get killed. And I think

36:10

that later on when I talk

36:12

about the history of what I

36:14

think is going on here, just

36:16

remember the number 10 or the

36:18

age 10. Anyway, when this 10-year-old

36:20

boy walked past, Hans the Scarecrow

36:22

leapt into action, he attacked the

36:24

child stabbing him viciously with a

36:26

sharpened stick. He then dragged the

36:28

child's lifeless corpse back to his

36:30

home where he butchered the body

36:33

and prepared to eat it. But

36:35

just as he was about to

36:37

take his first bite of sweet,

36:39

sweet human meat, a bolt of

36:41

divine lightning struck Hans Trapp and

36:43

he died. Boom! You would think

36:45

that the bolt of lightning would

36:47

strike him before he killed the

36:49

child, but no! Hans Trapp became

36:51

the boogie man of Christmas. His

36:53

legend grew and grew. French and

36:55

German parents whispered to their children

36:57

to be good or else that

37:00

Christmas Scarecrow would come for them

37:02

and eat them up. I just

37:04

feel like the compounded trauma of

37:06

various Christmas cannibals in history is

37:08

a real thing. I do feel

37:10

like we have gone to this

37:12

place in our secular celebration of

37:14

Christmas, where it is very light

37:16

and good things happen and elf

37:18

on the shelf and Santa con

37:20

drunk Santa's and we're like, oh

37:22

that's like the worst of it.

37:24

It's like when we peel back

37:27

the veneer a little more, we're

37:29

like, oh no, oh wait, give

37:31

me cannibals, give me demons, and

37:33

the wild hunt, like it gets

37:35

even weirder and darker and darker

37:37

the further back you go. Absolutely

37:39

true. And here's where the story

37:41

takes on a familiar theme. Hans

37:43

Trapp, after he's, I guess, dead,

37:45

is offered the chance at redemption

37:47

if he joins Father Christmas or

37:49

St. Nicholas or Santa's Entourage. He

37:52

takes on a role similar to

37:54

the Krampas or Parifutard. However, his

37:56

style is all his own. As

37:58

you would imagine, he looks like

38:00

a scarecrow. He dresses like a

38:02

scarecrow. He accompanies St. Nicholas, and

38:04

it is his job to meet

38:06

out punishment to naughty to naughty

38:08

naughty children. here are a little

38:10

sketchy. I can't really figure out

38:12

what he does besides March and

38:14

Santa's parade and I guess still

38:16

carry bad kids off to the

38:19

forest and eat them. Like it

38:21

feels as if this whole thing

38:23

is tacitly a promotion of child

38:25

cannibalism as far as I can

38:27

see. On Santa's part I mean

38:29

Santa is really condoning and enabling

38:31

this. Right? So what do I

38:33

think is really going on here?

38:35

Well I have some thoughts. First...

38:37

I want to talk a little

38:39

bit about the history of Hans

38:41

Trapp because it is very likely

38:43

that Hans Trapp is based on

38:46

a real person whose name was

38:48

Hans von Trotha. Pele, Hawaiian goddess

38:50

of volcanoes, fire, and rebirth. Mave,

38:52

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38:54

heroes. Kiyohime, Japanese fire-breathing snake demon.

38:56

Pesta, Norwegian spirit of the Black

38:58

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39:17

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39:19

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39:21

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39:23

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39:31

a guest and guide them in

39:33

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39:35

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39:37

they don't, and what they've been

39:40

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39:42

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39:44

Guests have said our conversations are

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40:19

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40:23

and visit our website what should

40:25

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40:27

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deeply. So, the story of Hans

40:56

von Trotha, and I'm quoting here

40:58

from a Ripley's article called The

41:01

Terrible Tale of Hans Trotte the

41:03

Christmas Gaircrow. Quote, Hans von Trotha

41:05

was a knight who lived from

41:07

1450 to 1503. He commanded two

41:09

castles in the Palatine, with a

41:11

French-German territory, but became embroiled in

41:13

In an argument with the church

41:15

over the property in one of

41:17

them, the abbot would not concede

41:19

certain properties to Vontrotha, so the

41:21

embittered knight stopped the supply of

41:23

water to the nearby town of

41:25

Weisenberg with a dam. In retaliation,

41:28

the abbot had the dam destroyed,

41:30

which flooded the villagers' homes and

41:32

businesses. The dispute continued until, just

41:34

as with Homestrap, the knight was

41:36

summoned by the Pope himself and

41:38

excommunicated. While there is no record

41:40

of Vontrotha turning to cannibalism and

41:42

hunting children while dressed as a

41:44

scarecrow, what we know upon Vontrotha's

41:46

life is also extraordinary. Even the

41:48

Emperor's intervention... wasn't enough

41:50

to put a

41:53

stop to the to

41:55

battle with the

41:57

Abbot of the abbot

41:59

of which Abbey, which

42:01

why Pope why Pope

42:03

came into the

42:05

picture in the

42:07

first place, first on

42:09

his his summoning to successor

42:11

Alexander court. court, refused

42:14

to attend. to Instead, he

42:16

sent a letter to the the which

42:18

expounded on Phontrotha's faith while accusing

42:20

the pope of all manner of impure

42:22

acts. acts. Even excommunicated, I'm still

42:25

in the quote. quote. The Wiley von Trotha

42:27

did well for himself. Serving

42:29

the French royal court, he

42:31

was given the the Chevalier de Orr

42:33

by King Louis and on his death all

42:35

his death, all charges against him

42:37

were reversed and forgiven. of his Something

42:40

of his notoriety lived on, though,

42:42

and not only Trapp, local Local

42:44

legends also to to him as the Black

42:46

Knight, a formidable specter that

42:48

was also said to accompany

42:50

Santa Santa children who were

42:52

unworthy of gifts. were unworthy of gifts.

42:54

so I wanted to include this

42:57

quite long quote because sometimes history is just is

42:59

and good tea, good tea, right? And

43:01

that's exactly what we're seeing here. von

43:03

Trotha was a real a real into got into

43:06

a fight with the local They were They

43:08

were fighting over of because of course, out of

43:10

touch and rich of touch in rich people's

43:12

problems a a land dispute between the church

43:14

and a wealthy knight. Jen informed me

43:16

of this, and I did not know

43:18

this. This was a period in history

43:21

where all the land was either controlled

43:23

by wealthy landowners Knights or the the church. were like,

43:25

you were a common common person, you

43:27

were probably a surf for for either one

43:29

of those, the church or this wealthy

43:31

landowner. those were those were the people who

43:33

the all the land, right? And we're going

43:35

we're going to talk about the issues

43:37

around that a little bit later in the

43:40

episode because there's a lot of tension

43:42

here here. what you're seeing with like Hans von Trotha and

43:44

the church, like was not everyone was thrilled with

43:46

the inroads are becoming now a part of of

43:48

their land being owned by the or or

43:50

whatever else because these people were tied to

43:52

their land of a series of reasons that

43:55

we're going to talk about had to do to

43:57

do with stuff happening in the and a

43:59

and a little. ice age and then through

44:01

the black death which really created people

44:03

locked in a place because they had

44:05

no freedom of movements. So let's get

44:07

back to what these two wealthy people

44:10

decided to do. How do they settle

44:12

their problems? Hans chose violence and builds

44:14

a dam to block the neighboring town

44:16

from getting water, which is kind of

44:18

a dick move Hans. But what does

44:20

the abbot do to retaliate? Well, he

44:23

has that dam destroyed. Now, the abbot

44:25

clearly didn't care about the townspeople either.

44:27

Dick move abbot. because once the dam

44:29

was destroyed, the neighboring town was flooded,

44:31

ruining homes and businesses. And potentially drowning

44:34

some people. Yeah, I mean, can we

44:36

just kick both of these guys out

44:38

and get someone else in to run

44:40

this area of the world? Because in

44:42

this moment, they both seem like they're

44:44

the assholes. Yeah, I think this is

44:47

an everyone's the asshole situation here, but

44:49

also these are your two options, like

44:51

this asshole or this other asshole. That's

44:53

the reality of this time period. Yeah,

44:55

and you know, this legend, we're going

44:57

to talk about it in a little

45:00

bit, this legend is super important because

45:02

it's showing you what the common people

45:04

thought about the people in charge, and

45:06

when we unpack what was going on

45:08

in history, why Hans is so scary,

45:10

why all these things are so important,

45:13

really becomes clearer, but we're going to

45:15

get there. Anyway, so the Pope decides

45:17

to weigh in on this whole debacle.

45:19

He calls Hans to Rome and personally

45:21

has him excommunicated. Of course, Hans is

45:23

very salty about all this and refuses

45:26

to attend the meeting. Instead, he sends

45:28

along an epic burn letter about the

45:30

Pope in question, accusing the Pope of

45:32

all kinds of lewd, immoral, and vile

45:34

acts because Hans had the receipts. Also,

45:36

this was the Borgia Pope, so I

45:39

guess everybody had the receipts. Everybody had

45:41

the receipts, and we're going to tell

45:43

you why, because the Borgia Pope was

45:45

up to no fucking good. He's some

45:47

of the best tea in history. So

45:50

because we don't hang out in this

45:52

time period that much, I'm just going

45:54

to give you a quick overview of

45:56

Pope Alexander VI. So the Borges are

45:58

one of the most in- infamous

46:00

in history. history. They had a

46:03

reputation for murder, poisoning, crime,

46:05

scheming, and just in general, being

46:07

bosses. being bosses. of what of what?

46:09

Crime. Crime bosses, mostly that. Alexander rose all

46:11

the all the way to the

46:13

top. There was actually a

46:15

really good TV show called show called

46:17

the Jeremy Irons as and he

46:19

was great, and you should watch it. I

46:21

think you on Netflix, it's I think? I think. I

46:23

think it was originally on on It might

46:25

be on Netflix on Netflix now. It was, I

46:27

think it was by the guy who

46:29

did who did Rome or something like, or the It was either

46:32

the guy like, by the guy who did

46:34

Rome or the Tudors. or It kind of

46:36

kind of paints Alexander the the Six like an mob boss.

46:38

And I'm like. I don't think you're wrong

46:40

with that. We might be taking a

46:42

lot of cues from that show in this

46:44

description. I mean, I didn't have time

46:46

to do a deep dive into all of

46:48

the time to do a around the of the like So

46:50

I'm giving you sort of around the Borges. obviously

46:52

more nuances and complexities here. here

46:54

and I do think in some ways the creature gets

46:56

a bad rap maybe undeserved, but that's

46:58

for another episode. episode. Other have covered this

47:01

in more depth where this is depth where this

47:03

is period in history. period in history. The has

47:05

covered this. I'm sure covered look at all

47:07

the They look at friends over at the

47:09

Queen's over at I think you've looked at

47:11

this too. I think have are good places to

47:13

go to are good places to So places go to. Anyway

47:15

so Alexander the all the way to the

47:17

top. top. He He was supposed to, ideally,

47:20

a live a celibate life as a priest,

47:22

and then a bishop, and then a

47:24

cardinal, and then finally pope. He was

47:26

not supposed Pope. That's the key thing. to

47:28

bone. of the job description. Key point

47:31

of the job It turns out

47:33

it had a slew of mistresses.

47:36

It It was a wide choose

47:38

with Alexander VI. He had six children,

47:40

including the infamous Lucretia who

47:42

may have been maligned

47:44

by history. So when Hans

47:46

laid out all of the Pope's moral

47:48

failings in his letter, we had a Well, had

47:50

a lot of moral failings to draw on. A lot of

47:52

it had to do with boning, but some of it

47:54

had to do with had to do with crime. Because

47:56

was not a good guy, guy.

47:59

Not ideal terms. of what a priest

48:01

should be. And we know this

48:03

because this is from a Bohemian

48:05

humanist poet whose name I cannot

48:07

pronounce, I'm sorry, I'm like three

48:09

drinks in, but his last name

48:11

appears to be Lobkavik. He's a

48:13

Bohemian humanist poet who lived from

48:15

1461 to 1510 AD and who

48:17

wrote a very hostile. Fight in

48:19

words, epitaph, about Alexander in Latin,

48:21

and bear with me because this

48:23

is some wild shit. Quote, One

48:25

who hated peace and quiet, and

48:27

who loved battles, strife, murder, and

48:29

treason, lies in this urn, as

48:31

all people rejoice. Alexander, thy shepherd,

48:33

a greatest Rome, a greatest Rome,

48:35

ye prelates of Erebus. Close the

48:37

doors of heaven and prohibit this

48:39

soul from your realm. If it

48:41

enters sticks, it will disrupt the

48:43

peace of a verness, and if

48:45

it seeks heaven, it will set

48:47

the inhabitants of the sky against

48:49

each other. Good Lord! So, like,

48:51

where was this found? Is this

48:53

just emblazoned on his crematory urn?

48:55

Well, I have no idea. Jenny

48:57

asked me and I tried to

48:59

trace this down and literally I

49:01

found this on Wikipedia and that

49:03

was the context I got and

49:05

that was it and I loved

49:07

it because it's so wild. So

49:09

here's what I'm going to tell

49:11

you. It says lies in this

49:13

earn as all people's rejoice so

49:15

it is actually on his earn.

49:17

Now what I'm going to say

49:19

about this is the Pope who

49:21

came after Alexander VI. was not

49:23

a fan of him. He actually

49:25

demanded not to sleep in any

49:27

of the chambers that the Borges

49:29

had desecrated. So he wouldn't even

49:31

sleep in those chambers. He like

49:33

made his own place because he

49:35

was so morally outraged by the

49:37

Borgia Pope. It's possible this was

49:39

on his earn? Like it does

49:41

say emblazoned on this earn. So

49:43

I don't know. Based on how

49:45

his successor felt about him. I

49:47

think it might have been put

49:49

on his earn because his successor

49:52

was not a fan. But we're

49:54

just guessing here. So, it's very

49:56

clear that Pope Alexander was not...

49:58

loved by the

50:00

people people other other

50:02

In fact, fact, his his his much very

50:04

much by others around him, around

50:06

had power. had power. He was known

50:08

to silence his enemies, so during

50:10

his life, well, things things of of

50:12

had a way of falling

50:14

into place in such manner that favoured

50:16

him. And now we go back we go

50:18

back to Hans After his After

50:20

his dust up with the Pope,

50:22

von Trofe decided to try

50:24

his hand at the court. where

50:26

he did very well for himself.

50:28

He was well - for for his

50:30

diplomatic skills, particularly during the

50:33

Italian during the Italian wars. Hans von himself

50:35

a title, a title. it for

50:37

me. it for Chevalier, Dar. The of Gold, I

50:39

I suppose. Night of of Gold.

50:41

It was given to him

50:43

by the 12th. And he rehabbed he

50:45

rehabbed his image and regained

50:47

his respect, particularly of the respect

50:49

of the French After von Trotha died,

50:51

all the died, all the charges against

50:53

him were reversed. I guess he was

50:55

re -communicated? I I don't know how

50:57

that works. Like he was he

50:59

was communicated? So So does that mean you're

51:02

I don't know what that means.

51:04

I don't know lived on in legend, lived

51:06

not just as not just as as trap,

51:08

but as the a knight, a said to

51:10

follow Santa Claus around and punish

51:12

children who are unworthy of who are unworthy

51:14

And I have to say, say,

51:16

that sounds about right to me.

51:18

It seems that Vontrotha was a

51:20

pretty religious and serious guy. guy. He

51:22

fought over land with the the church

51:24

he felt he was in the

51:26

right in the he got excommunicated,

51:28

and during said excommunication, he

51:30

took that time to call

51:32

out time to call out church So So

51:34

it doesn't surprise me that

51:36

he me his he'd spend his afterlife

51:39

accompanying St. punishing children who

51:41

don't deserve their who don't deserve

51:43

their toys. I mean, mean. Seems like

51:45

a thing he like a thing

51:47

he might do. rather petty when you put rather

51:49

petty he you put it that way.

51:51

he may he kind of was. like a scarecrow

51:53

he may have been dressed like

51:55

a scarecrow and may have been eating

51:57

children. Don't look too close at

51:59

this one. kids. Don't look too close. He's

52:02

either dressed as a scarecrow or

52:04

a black knight. And I mean,

52:06

let's be honest, the fact that

52:08

he had all the tea on

52:10

the Borgia Pope and was like,

52:12

oh, you're excommunicating me? I'm taking

52:14

this moment to put all of

52:16

my feels about you into public

52:18

record right now. Go. Somehow I

52:20

think it was the Borgia Pope

52:22

who started these scurialist rumors about

52:24

the cannibalistic scarecrow. Totally agree. I

52:26

wanted to just take a minute

52:28

to add in another member of

52:30

Santa's Entourage. There are many more

52:32

we talked about Perkta last year.

52:34

This one is a little different.

52:36

This member of Santa's Entourage is

52:38

one who appears just after Hans

52:41

Trapp in St. Nicholas's Parade. And

52:43

this is the Christ Kindle. The

52:45

Christ Kindle is an angelic creature

52:47

said to perform miracles on Christmas

52:49

Eve. She is part of St.

52:51

Nicholas's Entourage and is supposed to

52:53

appear after Hans Trapp. as a

52:55

beacon of hope and light after

52:57

the terror and fear of the

52:59

cannibal Christmas Scarecrow. She's there to

53:01

be like, it's okay kids. You

53:03

made it. He didn't take you

53:05

off and eat you. You've been

53:07

good. To those who haven't been

53:09

eaten, which is an L of

53:11

you, let's be clear. Some of

53:13

you did get eaten or beaten

53:15

with branches or whatever. Some of

53:17

you are traumatized. No, no, no.

53:20

All of you are traumatized. Like

53:22

it's the Middle Ages. I mean,

53:24

that's just a constant state of

53:26

existence. So, let's be honest here.

53:28

The more we look at it,

53:30

the more Santa's entourage looks an

53:32

awful lot like the Wild Hunt.

53:34

Odin's Wild Hunt. We covered this

53:36

in Yule. Because this ragtag bunch

53:38

of demons, cannibals, angels, gods, and

53:40

monsters that Father Christmas has just

53:42

collected feel ancient. He's kind of

53:44

inherited something that's very old, right?

53:46

Even if their stories are modern,

53:48

almost as if those more modern

53:50

folk legends are hearkening back to

53:52

a lost time, a lost legend,

53:54

a lost mythology, it's like we

53:56

take Santa Claus and we paste

53:58

him on top of Odin. It's

54:01

like a copy on top of

54:03

something else. It's like they're trying

54:05

to like meld everything together. Yeah,

54:07

it's like a Santa Claus sanitized

54:09

mask and underneath it is something

54:11

deeper and older and scarier. And

54:13

it's absolutely no surprise that these

54:15

stories all come together at the

54:17

time that Christianity was beginning to

54:19

make inroads into the more remote

54:21

areas of Europe, the feast of

54:23

St. Nicholas, with its parades and

54:25

pageantry, with its villains and heroes,

54:27

all have a throwback to the

54:29

ancient wild hunt, to the epic

54:31

yule celebrations, and in our opinion,

54:33

these are the beginnings of the

54:35

two being married into one holiday,

54:37

Christmas. Steve

54:42

Cuban and man McNamara's podcast from

54:44

beneath the Hollywood Sun Mary Astor

54:46

has been keeping a diary Mary

54:48

writes everything down and so this

54:50

turret affair with George's Kaufman is

54:52

chronicled on a daily basis in

54:54

great detail And I pulls out

54:56

a box and gives McAllister a

54:59

ring saying here's something to remember

55:01

me by this article caused Darryl

55:03

Zannick to hit the roof actress

55:05

Ruth Roman followed that up with

55:07

playing a foil to Betty Davis

55:09

in Beyond the Force. I mean,

55:11

if you can stand toe to

55:13

toe with her, boy. And she

55:16

does because she plays the daughter

55:18

of the man that Betty Davis

55:20

kills out in the hunting trail.

55:22

And it's directed by King Vidor.

55:24

So he's no slouch. How do

55:26

you go wrong with that? Yeah.

55:28

Speaking of the Oscars, talking about

55:30

what I call beginners luck, it's

55:32

all about the actors and actresses

55:35

who won an Oscar on their

55:37

very first film. Hollywood Sign. Do

55:39

you find it hard to sleep

55:41

at night? Then the Calm Cove

55:43

podcast can help you sleep deeply

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all night long. Calm Cove has

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and crackling fires. All

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of our All of

55:56

our episodes are

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designed to help

56:00

you relax and to

56:02

asleep fast. Calm Cove

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is is brought

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the team behind

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Sleep Sleep Cove, the sleep

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56:17

meditation. meditation and stories.

56:19

So if you you want to listen

56:21

to a beautiful soundscape tonight, search

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for for Calm Cove on Apple

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or Spotify Spotify. see how how

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helping millions of people

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relax of go to sleep. relax

56:33

and go to sleep every

56:35

night. And while all of this

56:37

might be true, there's another

56:39

thing to consider about

56:42

this time of this might be true, goes

56:44

another thing to consider about this

56:46

time period. And it goes

56:48

all the way back to our Halloween

56:50

year this year. This year I covered

56:52

Catholic as as we called it. it. and looked

56:54

at the the panic in trials in

56:56

Germany and France. and and

56:59

other areas of Europe. of as

57:01

I was doing the research for

57:03

this episode, I was floored

57:05

to see so much so much These

57:07

stories of Christmas cannibals were

57:09

taking place in a very particular

57:12

time and a very particular

57:14

place. a A time and place a

57:16

cannibalism and cannibalism intricately tied together.

57:18

together. And it made me wonder, could

57:20

all all these stories of Christmas

57:22

cannibals actually be tied back

57:24

to the the panic of the of

57:27

the 1400s? The answer is So

57:29

this is a quote from a quote

57:31

from a History.com article

57:33

called, America Had Trials, Europe had

57:35

Trials. trials. Quote. Charges that people could

57:38

be menacing werewolves surfaced

57:40

as part of the witch

57:42

trials that swept through

57:44

parts of Europe in the

57:46

of Europe in the Officials in

57:48

the in the of Switzerland conducted

57:50

large -scale prosecutions, blaming witches

57:52

for crop failures, lameness,

57:55

blindness, infertility, and impotence, as well

57:57

well as adopting forms and

57:59

mutilating According to to some accounts,

58:01

several hundred men and women were

58:03

convicted and burned at the stake

58:05

in in starting in 1428, often

58:07

with a sack of around around their

58:09

necks. Can you imagine you imagine they

58:11

were burned at the stake with

58:13

a sack of gunpowder around their

58:15

necks? ways, In some ways that's

58:18

awful, ways, I guess at guess at

58:20

least their necks, they went went quickly. also, I

58:22

But also, I mean, by that

58:24

point, they might have died of

58:26

asphyxiation from the smoke inhalation. Happy Christmas.

58:28

is the reason for the is the reason

58:30

for the season. that they owned any land

58:32

that they owned automatically transferred to

58:34

the local the of the king, may

58:37

which may have spurred the accusations.

58:39

From the Alps, where prosecutions spread

58:42

to to Franz Comte, in Burgundy, a a

58:44

densely forested area where villagers

58:46

and livestock were easy prey

58:48

for actual wolves. There, as There, as

58:50

elsewhere in Europe, political and

58:53

religious upheavals heightened tensions, and

58:55

Christianity was struggling to overcome

58:57

regional pagan traditions, pagan making

58:59

fertile ground for fanciful accusations

59:01

according to accusations a German expert

59:03

on witch and werewolf hunts,

59:05

in his 2009 book his 2009

59:07

book, Man is Witch. In In 1521, appointed

59:09

appointed by the Pope

59:11

presided over several trials of

59:13

alleged were wolfery. Two shepherds, Pierre Bergo

59:15

Pierre Michel Verdun, confessed to making a pact to making

59:17

a pact with the devil in

59:19

exchange for food, in meeting with

59:21

a man in black who gave

59:23

them an ointment that turned them

59:26

into werewolves, then attending midnight witch

59:28

gatherings hunting and eating children. Both

59:30

were convicted and burned at the

59:32

stake the with a third with a refused

59:34

to confess. confess. So, why did I did

59:36

I include this very long quote? I

59:38

really I really wanted to set

59:40

the scene for you. the time the

59:42

time of Para and Hans Trapp,

59:44

something was happening in

59:46

the countryside. coming down from down from

59:48

the we being across France and

59:50

Germany, were wolf trials. And these these trials

59:52

all had similar themes. Many Many

59:54

of those had had to do

59:56

with the intersection of Christianity and

59:59

pagan cultures. cultures. We also had to

1:00:01

do with the intersection of the wild

1:00:03

world, the woods, the fields, the mountains,

1:00:05

and the town. And we see these

1:00:07

being played out in both the stories

1:00:10

I told you. In the tale of

1:00:12

Parafutard, we get the story of a

1:00:14

cannibal naturally, but we also get the

1:00:16

protest against a hated Christian emperor by

1:00:19

the townspeople. Coincidence, Jenny? I think not.

1:00:21

And we see this again in Hans

1:00:23

Trapp. Han's trap, much like Parafutard, becomes

1:00:25

a hated cannibal figure. But he's also

1:00:27

someone who stood up to the Christians

1:00:30

who were imposing themselves on his land

1:00:32

and the land at the townspeople. And

1:00:34

while I certainly don't think he's in

1:00:36

the right, it's interesting to see both

1:00:39

figures as perhaps originally folk heroes or

1:00:41

real people who protested against the Christianization

1:00:43

of these areas. By turning these men

1:00:45

into boogie men and monsters... It further

1:00:48

turned them into tools of Christian oppression,

1:00:50

or propaganda, and made their stories once

1:00:52

of terror and fear to further the

1:00:54

Christmas agenda. Yeah, I said that. You're

1:00:56

furthering the Christmas agenda every time you

1:00:59

get excited about Christmas, Jen. Just think

1:01:01

about that. You're a Christmas oppressor. And

1:01:03

the other thing I wanted to flag

1:01:05

in this episode goes back to the

1:01:08

werewolves of it all. Cannibalism pops up

1:01:10

all the time in werewolf trials of

1:01:12

this era. Werewolves are constantly attacking and

1:01:14

killing, usually children. And it makes sense

1:01:17

that Hans Trapp and Parafutard would be

1:01:19

portrayed as cannibals. And one can even

1:01:21

say, in the case of Hans Trapp,

1:01:23

Proto-Wairwolves. Look, while Hans Trapp is not

1:01:25

technically a werewolf, he does dawn the

1:01:28

clothes of a scarecrow in order to

1:01:30

change his shape, hide his identity, and

1:01:32

commit horrible crimes. I mean, that's where

1:01:34

wolf adjacent, right? And like the stories

1:01:37

of the werewolf trials, his justice is

1:01:39

divine retribution. In short, Hans Trapp is

1:01:41

not just a boogie man to scare

1:01:43

the kids. He's also... a snapshot

1:01:46

of what life

1:01:48

looked like during this

1:01:50

time. time. He's a

1:01:52

creature that could only

1:01:54

have been created

1:01:57

during the terrors and

1:01:59

horrors of the and

1:02:01

trials of the werewolf

1:02:03

trials the uncertainty of

1:02:06

the spreading into new

1:02:08

areas, of the

1:02:10

intersection of pagan faith

1:02:12

and the Christian

1:02:15

faith. pagan faith and the another thing

1:02:17

I want to bring up want an

1:02:19

ancient link between link stories, wolf stories, cannibalism,

1:02:21

and starving times. times. When When we did

1:02:23

our first episode on werewolves in

1:02:25

ancient Greece and Rome, which we and -released

1:02:27

recently, so you may have heard

1:02:30

it you may have heard it, again, we noticed

1:02:32

how stories about werewolves from the

1:02:34

earliest days, from Greece and Rome,

1:02:36

going back to the Rome, going included

1:02:38

themes of cannibalism. To an

1:02:40

extent that we we these if these stories

1:02:42

may have originated during times of

1:02:44

starving of starving and pointed to a

1:02:46

real time when people ate each

1:02:48

other, including their own children own survive.

1:02:50

to survive. So I asked asked John to

1:02:52

look into whether there was a

1:02:54

starving time in Bavaria or Germany

1:02:56

or France and other affected areas

1:02:58

during the time these Christmas cannibals

1:03:00

originated or maybe a little bit

1:03:02

beforehand. Are these stories rooted

1:03:04

in more ancient folklore that stems from

1:03:06

a starving time as far back

1:03:08

as starving time as far or perhaps something more

1:03:10

recent. It turns out recent? It

1:03:13

answer is the answer is yes, maybe, right?

1:03:15

Yes, but right? Jenny it does but date

1:03:17

all the it does not date

1:03:19

all the way back to

1:03:21

doesn't stem everything doesn't stem back to a

1:03:24

volcano as much as it pains me to

1:03:26

say this, although it kind of is

1:03:28

a little related. There was

1:03:30

something that happened in the in the 1300.

1:03:32

was also devastating and changed the

1:03:34

course of history. of In Europe,

1:03:36

this was called the Great

1:03:39

Famine of 1315 to 1317. It's

1:03:41

important to note that during this period, there

1:03:43

was a a global cooling known

1:03:45

as the Little Ice Age. this

1:03:48

impacted the world, but also particularly

1:03:50

Europe, and it led to cooler

1:03:52

summers and harsher winters and a

1:03:54

lot more more rain for longer periods

1:03:56

of time. time. The famine waged across

1:03:58

all of Europe. of an impacted every

1:04:01

area. In particular, it impacted the

1:04:03

rural areas where life was very

1:04:05

much based on farming. The great

1:04:07

famine of 1315 was all about

1:04:10

devastating rains. These rains washed out

1:04:12

crops and led to problems in

1:04:14

the food supply chain, meaning widespread

1:04:16

starvation. And on the heels of

1:04:19

this famine rode another horror, the

1:04:21

black death, after the famine came

1:04:23

the plague. So that by the

1:04:25

time you hit the 1400s, well,

1:04:27

you'd seen a lot. You'd survived

1:04:30

a lot. And if you owned

1:04:32

a small farm, you were probably

1:04:34

in the red and the minority

1:04:36

because of nearly a century of

1:04:39

calamities. And to top it all

1:04:41

off, there was a labor crisis.

1:04:43

Farmers who needed help tilling their

1:04:45

fields could hire seasonal and wandering

1:04:47

laborers. But laborers at this time

1:04:50

were able to charge a lot

1:04:52

for their expertise because the demand

1:04:54

was so high. And farmers who

1:04:56

needed the help had no choice

1:04:58

but to hire workers or potentially

1:05:01

lose their homes and farms and

1:05:03

become subsistence or surf farmers. It

1:05:05

was a huge mess. But the

1:05:07

changes weren't done because in the

1:05:10

1400s something new was coming to

1:05:12

the fore and that was a

1:05:14

battle in the countryside amongst the

1:05:16

nobility and the church. So this

1:05:18

is a quote from Britannica. Quote,

1:05:21

in southern Germany, the strain of

1:05:23

transition in rural society was heightened

1:05:25

by the policies of the landlords,

1:05:27

both lay and ecclesiastical. I mentioned

1:05:30

this before. Confronted by labor shortages

1:05:32

and rising costs, many landlords attempted

1:05:34

to recoup their losses at the

1:05:36

expense of their tenants. By means

1:05:38

of ordinances passed in the manorial

1:05:41

courts, they denied to the peasantry

1:05:43

their traditional right of access to

1:05:45

commons, of common fields, woods, and

1:05:47

streams. Further, they revived their demands

1:05:49

for the performance of obsolete labor

1:05:52

services and enforced the collection of

1:05:54

the extraordinary taxes on behalf of

1:05:56

the prince. The peasants protested

1:05:58

and appealed to to

1:06:01

but their sole legal recourse was

1:06:03

to the to court. where

1:06:05

their where were silenced or ignored.

1:06:07

were silenced or landlords, the

1:06:09

church. They were the

1:06:12

efficient, and peasant discontent and

1:06:14

a strong anti -clerical tinge a

1:06:16

gave rise to localized

1:06:18

disturbances in to the in 1391,

1:06:21

Bergenze in 1407, Rottweil

1:06:23

in 1420, and 1420,

1:06:26

in 1421. 1421. Disturbance

1:06:28

is recurred with increasing frequency

1:06:30

in the course of the

1:06:32

15th course of the the Upper Rhine

1:06:34

in Alsace in the Black

1:06:36

Forest. the Black 1458, a a cattle

1:06:38

tax imposed by the the

1:06:40

of of kindled a peasant insurrection,

1:06:42

which spread to which spread to Styria,

1:06:44

Corinthia, Carniola. In Alsace, the the malcontents

1:06:46

adopted as the the of revolt

1:06:48

of revolt, the bunsia, wooden shoe

1:06:50

usually worn by the the peasants.

1:06:52

They They also formulated a series of

1:06:55

specific demands, which included the abolition

1:06:57

of the hated menorial courts courts, reduction

1:06:59

of feudal dues and public taxes

1:07:01

to a trifling annual amount. On

1:07:03

these fundamental points, there was little

1:07:05

room for compromise and the outbreaks

1:07:07

were stifled by the heavy hand

1:07:09

of established authority. But the rigors

1:07:11

of repression added fuel to peasant

1:07:13

discontent, which finally burst forth in

1:07:15

the great uprising of 1524 uprising of

1:07:17

1524 and 25. Sound familiar? This

1:07:19

is almost exactly the story of

1:07:21

Hans of and the Abbot. and the Abbott.

1:07:23

playing itself out over and over

1:07:25

again in the countryside again in the

1:07:27

church battled for control over the church battled

1:07:30

folk, I suppose you could say. I

1:07:32

suppose you could very much like is very

1:07:34

much in that second story, the

1:07:36

story of story, the story of George V of

1:07:38

Mets, right? seen this story in

1:07:40

the mythology that that these guys. guys.

1:07:42

Yeah, it's it's just over and

1:07:44

over again. like there's a about the

1:07:46

demonization of of popes and holy Roman emperors,

1:07:48

or resistance against popes and holy

1:07:50

Roman emperors, and the subsequent

1:07:52

demonization of people who stood up

1:07:55

to those up to those Yeah, I'm

1:07:57

I'm not saying that these guys

1:07:59

were good guys. Like I'm not saying that,

1:08:01

I'm just saying it's an interesting, there is

1:08:03

something happening here, particularly as Christianity becomes the

1:08:05

main religion. And Christianity at this point in

1:08:07

time, it's not just Catholicism, we also have

1:08:09

Protestantism and Lutherism and other versions of Christianity

1:08:12

are also becoming dominant. They're taking over the

1:08:14

pagan beliefs, but there's a lot of tension

1:08:16

going on when we get these folk legends

1:08:18

who become... part of Father Christmas, St. Nicholas's,

1:08:20

entourage. And you also have, you know, a

1:08:22

backdrop of climate change and starving times when

1:08:24

people potentially were in some areas resorting to

1:08:26

cannibalism to survive. I mean, maybe child cannibalism

1:08:29

was a thing people really did. Well, we're

1:08:31

going to talk about that now, because in

1:08:33

the backdrop of all of this, something else

1:08:35

was happening, printing presses were taking off. Images,

1:08:37

lurid images and stories were starting to be

1:08:39

shared across Europe and in particular Germany. And

1:08:41

they stoke the terror of the common people.

1:08:44

The first book printed might have been the

1:08:46

Bible, but the first genre of stories that

1:08:48

spread widely was true crime. Yeah, it was.

1:08:50

This kills me. Uh-huh. And that true crime

1:08:52

had one particular theme Jenny. Child cannibalism. Turns

1:08:54

out I'm not the only one obsessed with

1:08:56

this. I'm just like a German peasant really

1:08:59

in my taste and proclivities. Yeah, and please

1:09:01

bear in mind that a lot of these

1:09:03

would have been, a lot of people wouldn't

1:09:05

have been able to read. So the actual

1:09:07

images that would have been put in the

1:09:09

printing press would have been super important these

1:09:11

illustrations, these like I guess wood cuttings that

1:09:13

they would have pressed over and over and

1:09:16

over again, because that's how people would get

1:09:18

the gist of the gist of the story.

1:09:20

Someone in the group might be able to

1:09:22

read and they might read them the story

1:09:24

or they might make up their own story.

1:09:26

Remember, this is a culture of people who

1:09:28

at the time may or may not have

1:09:31

the ability to read due to their circumstance.

1:09:33

But sometimes they were having

1:09:35

their friends read it

1:09:37

to them. to Sometimes they

1:09:39

were and their friends

1:09:41

may or may not

1:09:43

be trustworthy. may or Do

1:09:46

you trust your friends?

1:09:48

Do you trust your I mean.

1:09:50

I don't trust Jenny

1:09:52

as far as I

1:09:54

could throw her, but

1:09:56

I kind of do.

1:09:58

I kind of That's really

1:10:01

fair. I I mean. all

1:10:03

So super of that is

1:10:05

super important as the

1:10:07

background of what's going

1:10:09

on at this point

1:10:11

in time. We don't

1:10:13

come to this time

1:10:15

period that often, but

1:10:18

again, it's fun to

1:10:20

be here for the

1:10:22

moment. And to be here for

1:10:24

the is a quote from

1:10:26

an article called here.

1:10:28

child murderers within the one called child

1:10:30

murderers within the wider visual culture

1:10:32

of infanticide and

1:10:34

cannibalism. It was was posted

1:10:37

on January 2nd, 2022 Dana

1:10:39

Raine. Quote, the prince of infanticide,

1:10:41

The Prince of prince that you see

1:10:43

in the the that you see press, may

1:10:45

have press been have also

1:10:48

been inspired by the real

1:10:50

fears of cannibalism and heightened

1:10:52

heightened during times of famine. The

1:10:54

The connection between famine with

1:10:56

fears of cannibalism of children

1:10:58

was further illustrated in a

1:11:01

broad in a of the of the

1:11:03

Livonian War of 1558 to 83, where

1:11:05

the foreground where the foreground

1:11:07

depicted a man a small a

1:11:09

small baby. tender are tender and

1:11:11

mild. Quote, as this print highlights, as

1:11:14

this print highlights, children were

1:11:16

repeatedly portrayed whole to consumed whole

1:11:18

to accentuate to its audience

1:11:20

that an innocent child was

1:11:22

being cannibalized and thus the

1:11:25

depravity of the of the Therefore,

1:11:27

the fear The fear surrounding infanticide

1:11:29

was fueled by the wider

1:11:31

preoccupation of cannibalism. The

1:11:33

high child mortality rate during this

1:11:35

period period explains the interest in

1:11:37

such narratives. in On average, half

1:11:39

of all children would die

1:11:41

by the age of the age of 10.

1:11:43

However, these these numbers reflect

1:11:46

European wide child mortality

1:11:48

rates and therefore not enough

1:11:50

to explain the fears

1:11:52

and fascination experienced in

1:11:54

in 16th Germany. Larry S. Milner stated

1:11:56

that that became a a serious

1:11:58

crime in Germany. in comparison to

1:12:00

other countries. The introduction of the 1532

1:12:03

criminal code, constitutio, criminalist, Carolina, resulted in

1:12:05

an increase in fantasy persecution. and became

1:12:07

punishable by execution, by beheading, or drowning.

1:12:09

However, infanticide similarly became punishable by death

1:12:11

across Europe. That statistic, half of all

1:12:14

children would die by the age of

1:12:16

10 in this time period, and this

1:12:18

is a 10-year-old child being attacked and

1:12:20

eaten by the scarecrow, the Christmas cannibal

1:12:22

scarecrow. That's why I told you to

1:12:25

remember 10. It's like you were here

1:12:27

for my quiz. It's like I was

1:12:29

paying attention. You were, even though you've

1:12:31

been drinking. I'm so proud of you.

1:12:33

Yes, I wanted you to be here

1:12:36

for that because the reality is that

1:12:38

number 10 was seared into the psyche.

1:12:40

Half of the children at this point

1:12:42

in time were not making it past

1:12:44

the age of 10. Some of that

1:12:47

had to do with the extreme climate

1:12:49

change and famins going on. Some of

1:12:51

them might have had to do with

1:12:53

other things that we don't like to

1:12:55

talk about in history, what people might

1:12:58

have resorted to during that period in

1:13:00

time. Murdering and eating a child in

1:13:02

Germany became a crime on the books

1:13:04

in the 1500s. Presumably before that it

1:13:06

was just an unspoken rule, like generally

1:13:09

frowned upon. Or maybe not. I don't

1:13:11

know. Look, we're hungry, it's the famine,

1:13:13

there's no official rule against it. The

1:13:15

article claims that the fears of child

1:13:17

cannibalism were out of proportion with reality

1:13:20

with reality. And that might be true

1:13:22

of the 1500s, but I'm not so

1:13:24

sure that that was the case in

1:13:26

the 1300s and 1400s. When the famine

1:13:28

hit, when the long cold first took

1:13:31

root and starved everyone, and then the

1:13:33

black death came and all that stuff,

1:13:35

and I'm not so sure that children

1:13:37

didn't have a lot to fear from

1:13:39

their own families and their communities. Particularly

1:13:42

those children who didn't behave or who

1:13:44

were seen as troublemakers, who didn't earn

1:13:46

their keep. And as much as it's

1:13:48

easy to see Hans Trop and pair

1:13:50

Futard as villains, could they also be...

1:13:53

standins for what befell naughty

1:13:55

children from their own

1:13:57

families or you know

1:13:59

children who who were as

1:14:01

naughty or who stepped

1:14:04

out of of in

1:14:06

some way. way. When the starving

1:14:08

times times came. It's like, who's the

1:14:10

expendable one? would be would be the

1:14:12

child who didn't earn their keep, the

1:14:14

child who who was more trouble, The child who wasn't

1:14:16

so good all year is to receive a gift

1:14:18

or visit from St. Nicholas. from Saint That child

1:14:21

was expendable. And maybe a liability when

1:14:23

resources were scarce. And that's real dark,

1:14:25

but that's that's what we're seeing in

1:14:27

the It is what is what we're seeing

1:14:29

in the lore, and I'm sorry, a

1:14:31

that's kind of a downer for

1:14:33

Christmas. you look And if you look at

1:14:35

these wild parades, which are still

1:14:37

happening today. make you It may make you think

1:14:39

about where all these legends came from and

1:14:41

what was happening in that backdrop. backdrop. Again,

1:14:43

I'm I'm still a fan of the

1:14:45

Krampas, now I'm also a fan of

1:14:47

Hans Trapp and Parifutard and some some new stuff I

1:14:49

I can't tell you about yet

1:14:51

because we're gonna talk about them next

1:14:53

year. But it is always interesting

1:14:55

to understand the context of where these

1:14:57

stories came from and what might

1:14:59

have been happening. where these stories I mean,

1:15:01

look, I'm always gonna be a fan

1:15:04

of the Christmas cannibals because I

1:15:06

love myself a dark Christmas to be So

1:15:08

of for you, Jenny. Okay, ranking the

1:15:10

Christmas I love Which one is your

1:15:12

favorite? tale. Oh, that's hard. I love them all for love

1:15:14

them all for various different reasons

1:15:16

right I love you of because of

1:15:18

how drunk we got love Saturnalia because that

1:15:20

was that was early early one and

1:15:22

it was just so much fun. fun.

1:15:24

know, it was just a fun time.

1:15:26

time. I I love Mithras because of

1:15:28

the Emperor Pe drinking of it. it. I I

1:15:30

love the because it's the Krampus, right?

1:15:32

You can't not love the Krampus. not

1:15:34

love the say, I gotta say, say, I

1:15:36

gotta say my Frow Holly. I love her so

1:15:38

much, and I think I love

1:15:40

her the most because of the connection

1:15:42

that you drew, you drew the curtain

1:15:44

back and back and back back and and

1:15:46

darker versions of the of the folk I

1:15:48

was just riveted by that until

1:15:50

we got to this cave this I

1:15:52

don't know where it was, Spain it

1:15:55

somewhere, or somewhere of children's bones from 6,000 years

1:15:57

ago that spoke to this tradition.

1:15:59

of child cannibalism and ritual that we've

1:16:02

lost the real story for but like

1:16:04

that folklore is still there on top

1:16:06

of that and I think that's just

1:16:08

such an amazing testament to how folklore

1:16:10

works and what it covers up and

1:16:12

I'm always riveted by that, always. I

1:16:14

thought you were going to say Frau

1:16:16

Holly, I really love her too. I

1:16:19

usually do all of our Christmas episodes

1:16:21

with the exception of Janice. I also

1:16:23

stand with you with Frau Holly. I

1:16:25

really love Yule because of how drunk

1:16:27

we got and obviously the crampus, but

1:16:29

these cannibals, I have to say, there's

1:16:31

something that as we peel back the

1:16:33

layers, as we look at the fear

1:16:36

that was being mongered in the press,

1:16:38

as we look at the intersection of

1:16:40

both pagan and Christian cultures, As we

1:16:42

look at the starving times, this is

1:16:44

going to hold a special place for

1:16:46

me. And I do feel like we've

1:16:48

been laying the foundation for this since

1:16:51

all the way back, you know, there's

1:16:53

elements of wherewolves here, there's elements of

1:16:55

yule here, there's elements of saturnalia here,

1:16:57

like it goes all the way back

1:16:59

to that. One of the things that

1:17:01

I talk about all the time and

1:17:03

I compliment Jenny on is, usually Jenny

1:17:05

works, sorry, not usually, always Jenny works,

1:17:08

always Jenny works, usually lays out the

1:17:10

arc of the season while I'm still

1:17:12

being like, what are we doing a

1:17:14

season? What are we doing? But what

1:17:16

happens is, because Jenny works so well

1:17:18

and she's always so far ahead of

1:17:20

me, she kind of inadvertently lays out

1:17:22

all of these connections from me to

1:17:25

find. Jenny started the season, she brought

1:17:27

everything together, and then we did our

1:17:29

Catholic werewolves, and then I was able

1:17:31

to pull through all of these themes

1:17:33

into our final episode, which is our

1:17:35

Christmas episode. I am so happy with

1:17:37

how this has come full circle for

1:17:40

our odds and sides season that I

1:17:42

didn't think would mix together. I mean,

1:17:44

you're the one who's done all of

1:17:46

the Christmas episodes, so I don't think

1:17:48

it's really fair to say that I

1:17:50

was the architect of all of that.

1:17:52

But you were of the season with

1:17:54

the Cult of the Separed Head and

1:17:57

everything else. All these connections I made

1:17:59

were because of the work that you

1:18:01

already laid out in the season. We'll

1:18:03

just call it a mutual effort. Okay,

1:18:05

I'm here for that. So, the next

1:18:07

time you're enjoying your Christmas hot cocoa

1:18:09

with whiskey, because if you have my

1:18:11

family, you're definitely drinking whiskey in your

1:18:14

hot cocoa, spare a thought for the

1:18:16

Christmas cannibals and the weird and wild

1:18:18

history that brought them from the Middle

1:18:20

Ages into the modern world as creatures

1:18:22

and also order as the light and

1:18:24

dark sides to the season. So that's

1:18:26

it for this week. We'll see you

1:18:28

all next week and in the meantime

1:18:31

follow us on social media. If you've

1:18:33

attended a parade featuring Kranpus, Perkta, Parifutard,

1:18:35

Hans Trapp, please let us know. Send

1:18:37

his pictures. I would love to see

1:18:39

that. Oh yes, please send his Brit

1:18:41

chairs. I'm so excited. I want to

1:18:43

hear all about it. Yeah, you can

1:18:46

find us on social media at Ancient

1:18:48

History Fan Girl and Instagram, which is

1:18:50

where we're the most active. You can

1:18:52

also find us under that name on

1:18:54

Facebook threads and Tiktok, although we're not

1:18:56

really on Tiktok or Threads that much,

1:18:58

we really should, you know, upper game

1:19:00

there. We're still, you know, haunting the

1:19:03

dregs of Twitter at Ancient Hist Fan,

1:19:05

and we have some patron members to

1:19:07

thank, don't we, Jen? We do, and

1:19:09

we say this every episode, but I'm

1:19:11

going to say this again. Patreon is

1:19:13

the reason that you get to listen

1:19:15

to listen to this podcast every single

1:19:17

week. Our patrons are the reason that

1:19:20

we're able to continue making this podcast.

1:19:22

They are the support that we need

1:19:24

to keep literally our lights on and

1:19:26

ourselves in our homes and, you know,

1:19:28

paying our rent. So we cannot thank

1:19:30

them enough. And we do have some

1:19:32

patrons to thank. If you would like

1:19:35

to sign up for our Patreon, it's

1:19:37

Patreon. Sometimes we do videos, we do

1:19:39

random deep dives into other things we

1:19:41

didn't get to cover in our longer

1:19:43

episodes, and you know various stuff, you

1:19:45

would love it. Be a good Christmas,

1:19:47

cannibal, or whatever, and become a patron.

1:19:49

Be a good Christmas cannibal! Yo Saturdayoas,

1:19:52

and become a patron. Yo Saturdayo. Sign

1:19:54

up for our patron. Eat your children.

1:19:56

I'm say going knows

1:19:58

if you don't become

1:20:00

a patron, but

1:20:02

he does. a patron, knows

1:20:04

what you did knows what you didn't

1:20:07

do. what you didn't have some good

1:20:09

Christmas cannibals to thank, don't we, John?

1:20:11

to and if they don't want to be

1:20:13

called Christmas cannibals, we have some good

1:20:15

patrons to thank this week. Apologies

1:20:18

to anyone whose name we

1:20:20

mispronounce. to We hope we

1:20:22

don't. Thank you so

1:20:24

much anyone whose name we mispronounced. Brooke we

1:20:26

don't. Thank Kendra to Mary Kowalski. Cara. Caricawel.

1:20:28

Thank you so much.

1:20:30

Happy holidays. We hope you

1:20:32

have a wonderful holiday. Remember

1:20:35

the reason for the season. the

1:20:37

reason we will see you next

1:20:39

week. will see you next week!