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I-N-S-U-R-I-F-Y-I-I-I-Y-I-Y-I-I-Y-I-I-I-Y-I-I-Y-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I-I- For Jil racing was a

2:00

romantic thing. My preoccupation was in

2:02

keeping myself alive. But for him,

2:05

individual circumstances, coverage selections and insurance

2:07

provider, savings results are not guaranteed.

2:09

The athletic. For Jil, racing was

2:12

a romantic thing. My preoccupation was

2:14

in keeping myself alive, but for

2:16

him, the thing was to be

2:19

fastest. Every race, every lap. I

2:21

believe he was the fastest racing

2:24

driver the world has ever seen.

2:26

If he could come back tomorrow

2:28

and live his life over again,

2:31

I'm sure he would do it

2:33

the same way and with the

2:35

same love. That was the right

2:38

word. More than anyone I've known,

2:40

Jill was in love with motor

2:43

racing. and welcome to and colossely

2:45

that's history, the podcast that reappraises

2:47

motor racing history. I'm Richard Williams

2:50

and I'm Matt Bishop and I

2:52

hope you enjoyed that rather different

2:55

start to today's podcast. The words

2:57

I read were those of Jody

2:59

Schechter, the 1979 formal one world

3:02

champion, as quoted in motorsport magazine

3:04

and they were about the man

3:06

we're going to talk about today.

3:09

Yes. the great Joe Villeneuve. Across

3:11

little more than four full seasons

3:14

in the late 1970s and early

3:16

1980s, Villeneuve started 67 Formula One

3:18

Grand Prix, winning six of them.

3:21

To some, particularly those unfamiliar with

3:23

this small, quietly spoken driver from

3:25

Canada, that might seem like a

3:28

solid, if fairly unspectacular record. And

3:30

yet, speak to... anyone in Grand

3:33

Prix circles at the time, particularly

3:35

those who watched him at close

3:37

quarters and they'll tell you that

3:40

Jill was right up there with

3:42

the very best ever to get

3:44

behind the wheel. A thrilling, explosively

3:47

quick and supremely talented driver who

3:49

ranks alongside the likes of Fangeo,

3:52

Clark, Stuart, Senna, Shumacher and now

3:54

Hamilton and Vostapen. And in this

3:56

episode, we'll try to explain why.

3:59

Yep, that's the aim. In truth,

4:01

there's so much to talk about

4:03

when it comes to Jil Vilnirv,

4:06

certainly too much to squeeze into

4:08

one podcast. So on today's episode,

4:11

we're going to park one or

4:13

two topics like his falling out

4:15

with Didier Pironi and his tragic

4:18

violent death at Zalda in 1982.

4:20

And we're going to talk specifically

4:22

about Jilvilvilnerv, the driving genius, a

4:25

guy who was so expressive behind

4:27

the wheeled behind the wheel that

4:30

he made... piloting an F-1 car

4:32

into a sort of art form.

4:34

He did indeed and to help

4:37

us do that we've picked out

4:39

just three races from his former

4:41

one career that we think encapsulate

4:44

what made him so very special

4:46

and we're going to go through

4:49

them in chronological order. But first,

4:51

before we get into those races,

4:53

we both watched Villeneuve in his

4:56

pomp, didn't we Richard, but were

4:58

you or are you? a Vilna

5:00

fan, and given that this podcast

5:03

is all about reappraising the past,

5:05

has your feeling towards him changed

5:08

at all over the years? No,

5:10

it hasn't. I was a fan

5:12

then, and I'm a fan now,

5:15

and that's because no driver in

5:17

our lifetimes has more exhilaratingly embodied

5:19

the thing in the end that

5:22

we all want from motor racing,

5:24

the thing that draws us to

5:27

it, and that's drama. Apart from

5:29

everything else, when Jill was on

5:31

the track, drama was guaranteed. And

5:34

I mean, as a spectator, what

5:36

do you look for in a

5:38

racing driver? You look for someone

5:41

who's first in... when he gets

5:43

into a car is to find

5:46

someone to overtake. And that, very

5:48

obviously, was the bloke in the

5:50

number 27 Ferrari. So what's your

5:53

lasting impression of him, Matt? Well,

5:55

I agree with you. First of

5:58

all, I agree with you about

6:00

drama. I think that's a good

6:02

word to use, Richard. But in

6:05

addition to that, in addition to

6:07

the drama, above all, Gilville Nove

6:09

was quick. Sensationally quick, unbelievably quick

6:12

in the wet, especially. and a

6:14

battle, a real battle, unable, not

6:17

just unwilling, but unable, to throw

6:19

in the towel, incapable of giving

6:21

up. And all of that was

6:24

driven by passion, and, as Jody

6:26

Schechter rightly says, by love, by

6:28

love, too. But Villeneuve had his

6:31

critics, some journalists of the time,

6:33

and even some of his rival

6:36

drivers, thought he drove with so

6:38

little margin. that they called him

6:40

a rock ape. That was the

6:43

term often used about him. It

6:45

isn't often used about anyone these

6:47

days, rock ape, and rightly not,

6:50

because it's not actually a very

6:52

nice term. Rock apes were, or

6:55

are, a species of violent humanoid

6:57

creatures that were allegedly seen by

6:59

American soldiers during the Vietnam War,

7:02

dwelling... in Rocky terrain, hence rock

7:04

ape, and or even hurling rocks

7:06

at them, at the GIs, I

7:09

mean, hence again, rock ape. John

7:11

Watson was very critical of Jill

7:14

Villeneuve's on-track demeanor, for example. Watson

7:16

thought Jill, he thought he was

7:18

a bit of a rock ape.

7:21

And by the way, to be

7:23

fair to what he and anybody

7:25

else who might use that term

7:28

or other derogatory terms about him,

7:30

it wasn't that what he... or

7:33

any of Villeneuve's other critics thought

7:35

he was a danger. to other

7:37

drivers because he wasn't aggressive in

7:40

that way actually, but that he

7:42

was a danger to himself. He

7:44

was too often too close to

7:47

the ragged edge, they thought. And

7:49

by the way, Jackie Stewart thought

7:52

the same way about the young

7:54

Jackie X, if you remember. Yet

7:56

still Watson was one of the

7:59

drivers who stopped... to try to

8:01

help Villeneuve in his hour of

8:03

need at Zolda in 1982, in

8:06

vain as it turned out, of

8:08

course. I'm actually very fond of

8:11

Watty, and I think that was

8:13

typical of him, to stop and

8:15

try to help a fellow driver

8:18

in extremists whom he didn't in

8:20

all honesty. have a lot of

8:22

time for. By the way, he

8:25

stopped for Nicki Loudre as well,

8:27

hadn't he? Yes, he did. Yes,

8:30

he did. Yeah, in 76. Anyway,

8:32

we're going to get into our

8:34

three races in a moment, but

8:37

before that, it's probably worth our

8:39

briefly exploring Jill's route to Formula

8:42

One, because it wasn't at all

8:44

conventional, was it Richard? No, it

8:46

wasn't. Unlike today when virtually every

8:49

F1 driver driver follows the same

8:51

career path of carting from a

8:53

very young age. and then climbing

8:56

a fairly rigid single-seater ladder. Back

8:58

in the 1970s when Jiel arrived

9:01

in F1, drivers still came from

9:03

a variety of racing backgrounds, which

9:05

to my mind made them more

9:08

interesting. Yes, less formalitic. Yep, yeah.

9:10

But even so, Jielstadt was especially

9:12

unconventional because although he was interested

9:15

in cars and driving fast from

9:17

a young age, he actually got

9:20

his start in motorsport racing snowmobiles

9:22

in his native Quebec. the winters

9:24

along and cold. It's amazing to

9:27

think that. I mean, no one

9:29

could do that now. You could

9:31

not. You could not. You think

9:34

what funny must have. And as

9:36

you might expect, it was a

9:39

pretty hazardous pastime. But Jill was

9:41

blessed with an unusual level of

9:43

bravery and as would become clear,

9:46

an innate feeling for driving or

9:48

riding in the case of a

9:50

snowmobile at high speed. speed. Do

9:53

you ride or drive a snowmobile?

9:55

Ride, I would have thought. Maybe

9:58

you ride one, yeah. We mentioned

10:00

the great Canadian writer Jerry Donaldson

10:02

on this podcast before and his

10:05

book Gil Villeneuve the life of

10:07

the legendary racing driver is certainly

10:09

the definitive Gilbook and we'd thoroughly

10:12

recommend picking up a copy but

10:14

I want to read you a

10:17

short passage from Jerry's book because

10:19

it highlights the role snowmobile racing

10:21

had on the driver Gil would

10:24

become. with a steadfast belief in

10:26

his own ability, he kept the

10:28

throttle level with one handlebar pressed

10:31

wide open, while the break lever

10:33

on the other was seldom brought

10:36

into play. He developed a finely

10:38

tuned sense of balance and an

10:40

almost delicate sensitivity to know just

10:43

how far he could tempt the

10:45

centrifugal force that contrived to throw

10:47

his mount off into the hay

10:50

bales surrounding the slippery circuit. His

10:52

point of no return became much

10:55

farther than most as he honed

10:57

his reflexes to a lightning degree

10:59

and trusted them to rescue him

11:02

from the brink at the very

11:04

last moment. Doesn't that sound just

11:06

like Jill the Formula One driver?

11:09

It does and I may just...

11:11

draw to your attention that you

11:14

said centrifugal not centrifugal that's the

11:16

American spelling or pronunciation sorry was

11:18

that correct was that deliberate because

11:21

you're talking about a North American

11:23

oh it must be then in

11:25

that case I'm interested centrifugal centrifugal

11:28

answers on a postcard please listeners

11:30

potato potato no carry on your

11:33

go let's not call the whole

11:35

thing off no carry on your

11:37

go let's not call the whole

11:40

thing off just over centrifugal and

11:42

centrifugal Anyway, you asked me, does

11:45

that just sound like Jill? You

11:47

did ask me that, didn't you?

11:49

I did. And it absolutely does.

11:52

As I've said already, flat out

11:54

everywhere, all the time. And by

11:56

the way, even on the road,

11:59

actually. Back in the day, Formula

12:01

One drivers, and you know, this

12:04

is not defensible, but it's just

12:06

how things were, back in the

12:08

day, Formula One drivers often used

12:10

to race each other on the

12:12

road. Yeah, it was irresponsible, but

12:14

it was another age, and they just

12:16

did it. Some of the drivers actually

12:18

were quite disciplined on the road,

12:21

and actually that was Jody Scheckter's

12:23

style. Well, certainly it was by

12:25

the time... he'd arrived at Ferrari

12:27

anyway. I don't know whether sideways

12:29

Schechter as he used them. I

12:31

think I did that in an

12:34

Australian accent. Anyway, sideways Schechter in

12:36

a South African accent. I don't

12:38

know whether he was a bit

12:40

of a rock ape on the

12:42

road back in the day, but

12:44

by the time he'd become a

12:47

Ferrari driver, he was more

12:49

professional. Anyway. Jill wasn't.

12:51

Jill was always crazy

12:53

fast, even on the

12:55

road, and he enjoyed

12:57

that white knuckles, ten-tenths,

13:00

ragged-edge, bansai rep reputation.

13:02

In fact, Jody says that Jil

13:04

would speed up as he neared

13:06

Marinello to make sure that any

13:09

tifosi who happened to spot his

13:11

Ferrari on its way to the

13:13

factory would see would see that

13:16

it was going hell for leather

13:18

screeching its brakes, tire smoke, billowing

13:20

from all four corners, opposite lock

13:23

everywhere of course. I believe that

13:25

when he drove into the factory they'd

13:27

change all four tires on his road

13:29

car as a matter of course before

13:32

he went off. Is that right? And

13:34

I can imagine it kind of that

13:36

tick tick tick and the smell. Yeah,

13:38

tell tale. Exville, Jill

13:41

Villeneuve drive from the

13:43

airport to Maranello, yeah.

13:46

Anyway, the other unconventional

13:48

element of Jill's route

13:51

to Formula One was

13:53

that not just the

13:55

snowmobiles, but that also he

13:58

never raced in your... at

14:00

all before making it into Formula

14:02

One. Can you imagine that today?

14:04

You cannot. You can't. You can't.

14:07

And here's a thing. People may

14:09

or may not know that James

14:11

Hunt played a big role in

14:14

Jillvillenove getting his Formula One chance,

14:16

actually. As Alistair Caldwell, McLaren's former

14:18

chief mechanic and team manager, remembers

14:21

it, the first he, or indeed

14:23

many other people in Formula One,

14:25

had heard of Jill, was when

14:28

Hunt... and a few other formal

14:30

one regulars went to Canada. I

14:32

think the other regulars, certainly Alan

14:35

Jones was among them, perhaps Victoria

14:37

Brombilla? Certainly Jones, certainly Jones. Anyway,

14:39

they went to Canada to do

14:42

a formula Atlantic race at Trois

14:44

Riviere, Three Rivers, in 1976, which

14:46

was something that formal one stars

14:49

occasionally did back then, and Jill

14:51

beat them all. That was remarkable

14:53

because he didn't only beat Hunt,

14:56

but also Alan Jones, as I

14:58

say, who, like Hunt, would also

15:00

go on to become a Formula

15:03

One world champion. According to Caldwell,

15:05

quote, when James came back, he

15:07

said, this kid's a genius, he

15:10

can really drive. And it was

15:12

a really, this is Caldwell still

15:14

speaking, it was a very, very

15:16

rare thing for a driver to

15:19

extol the virtues of another. So

15:21

Teddy Mayer, obviously the McLaren boss,

15:23

called Jill, telephoned him, and asked

15:26

him to come and see us.

15:28

This is still Caldwell's quote. The

15:30

following day, our receptionist called up

15:33

to say, there was this young

15:35

man downstairs called Jill Villenev, who'd

15:37

like to see you. Now this

15:40

was the kind of guy we

15:42

liked. We liked. He'd found a

15:44

flight to London, he'd made his

15:47

way to Colbrook, just west of

15:49

London where the McLaren factory was,

15:51

and here he was. We showed

15:54

in the cars and he was

15:56

just mad about them, full of

15:58

enthusiasm, and this was the perfect...

16:01

kind of driver for us, needed

16:03

no babying, and he couldn't wait

16:05

to drive the car." So, as

16:08

we'll go on to discuss, Gil

16:10

did all but one of his

16:12

F-1 races, Grand Prix, for Ferrari,

16:15

and that's as it should be,

16:17

really, because you could say, and

16:19

we probably will go on to

16:22

say, that he was the archetypal

16:24

Ferrari driver in so many ways,

16:26

but... It was the Scuderia's arch

16:29

rivals McLaren who actually gave him

16:31

his Formula One start at Silverstone

16:33

in 1977. He'd finished that British

16:36

Grand Prix in 11th place after

16:38

losing a couple of laps to

16:40

a 40 temperature gauge, but by

16:43

that stage he'd already impressed many

16:45

observers with his otherworldly car control.

16:47

Were you there by the way?

16:50

No, I wasn't. I wish I

16:52

had been. British Grand Prix in

16:54

76, 78 and 79, but I

16:57

wasn't there in 77. Anyway, this

16:59

is an interesting point that not

17:01

a lot of people I think

17:04

necessarily appreciate, but I might be

17:06

wrong, but it's my impression that

17:08

not that many do. We'll see.

17:10

Another young driver was also looking

17:13

very impressive in the second half

17:15

of 1977, and that was Patrick

17:17

Tombe, who was doing mighty things

17:20

in a lowly enzyme. I mean,

17:22

he would have finished... third Zanfort

17:24

in that car, but for I

17:27

think running out of fuel he

17:29

ended up fifth or sixth, but

17:31

he would have finished third on

17:34

the podium in an enzyme. It

17:36

just didn't really happen, and he

17:38

was a rookie. Anyway, this may

17:41

sound odd now, but actually Ferrari

17:43

and McLaren were both gunning to

17:45

hire Tom Bay, not Villenev. However,

17:48

Lyrical Caldwell went on to wax

17:50

about him. And it was only

17:52

because McLaren got Tom Bay's signature

17:55

first that Ferrari signed whom both

17:57

teams then regarded as the second

17:59

best choice filner. Now, to Be

18:02

clear, Patrick Tombe was a lovely

18:04

man, much missed, and was actually

18:06

a very fine driver, you know,

18:09

a two-time Grand Prix winner for

18:11

Ferrari, funnily enough, and a two-time

18:13

Canam champion, but he wasn't as

18:16

good as Gil Villeneuve. I mean...

18:18

almost no one was. No, but

18:20

McLaren would have been taking a

18:23

chance at that point, given the,

18:25

given the, given the option, you

18:27

know, Tambe, was a known quantity

18:30

and a very good driver and,

18:32

you know, a much more experience.

18:34

But anyway, fate stepped in with

18:37

an invitation to Gile to test

18:39

for Ferrari, and in 1977, he

18:41

flew to Italy to meet Enso

18:44

Ferrari and to try one of

18:46

the cars. Fiorano, I suppose. And

18:48

I think we should also mention

18:51

the role played by the tobacco

18:53

company executive John Hogan, who handled

18:55

Marlborough's motor racing sponsorship, which included

18:58

sponsoring McLaren, of course, and of

19:00

course paying the salaries of Ferrari's

19:02

drivers. After that race at Tri-Rivier,

19:04

James Hunter talked to Hogan about

19:07

Jil, as well as to Teddy

19:09

Mayer, and Hogan certainly played a

19:11

part in getting Ferrari interested and

19:14

in helping to make the deal.

19:16

The Marlborough name wasn't yet on

19:18

the Italian cars, but it would

19:21

be on Jil's helmet and his

19:23

overalls. Just to say, John Hogan,

19:25

I thought, was a great guy.

19:28

I really enjoyed his company. He

19:30

died only about three or four

19:32

years ago. Complications from COVID. and

19:35

a very important backroom figure in

19:37

Formula One for many many years.

19:39

Australian of course. Yeah. And as

19:42

we've talked about before Enso Ferrari

19:44

had a strange relationship with some

19:46

of his drivers, but she was

19:49

always a bit different, partly because...

19:51

Quite aside from anything else, he

19:53

reminded the old man of Tapsio

19:56

Novollari, who Ferrari had run in

19:58

his team before the war, and

20:00

who he often said was his

20:03

favourite driver, along with Sterling Moss.

20:05

Interesting that Sterling Moss is in

20:07

that same issue. and of course

20:10

he never drove for the old

20:12

man. No, and was that. Nearly

20:14

did. Yeah, nearly did was about

20:17

to when he had his bad

20:19

accident in 1962. But there we

20:21

are. Another podcast. Enso wrote about

20:24

Sheel in his memoirs, and he

20:26

said, when they presented me with

20:28

this little Canadian, this minuscule bundle

20:31

of nerves, I immediately recognized in

20:33

him the physique of novalari. And

20:35

I said to myself, let's give

20:38

him a try. Quite a compliment

20:40

coming from the old man who

20:42

spent six decades closely observing all

20:45

the greats. I mean a fantastic

20:47

compliment actually. And yeah, and speaking

20:49

of the greats, one man who

20:52

Enzo Ferrari didn't necessarily see eye-to-eye

20:54

with, as I think we've mentioned

20:56

on the pod before in previous

20:59

episodes, was Juan Manuel Fangeo, the

21:01

five-time Formula One world champion from

21:03

the 1950s. And if I may,

21:05

I'd like to quote Fangeo now,

21:08

because after Villeneuve's death in 1982,

21:10

he, Fangeo, spoke of Enzo Ferrari's

21:12

Tatsio Nouvalari comparison. He spoke his

21:15

words in Spanish, of course, but

21:17

here's an English translation. Quote, Gilville

21:19

Nerve will remain a member of

21:22

the family of truly great drivers

21:24

forever. Enzo Ferrari, a great authority

21:26

on such matters, slightly damning with

21:29

faint praise there I would say,

21:31

but anyway, never mind, Enzo Ferrari,

21:33

a great authority on such matters,

21:36

has compared him to Tatsio Nuvalari.

21:38

In my younger days, Nuvalari was

21:40

the absolute idol. All drivers aspire

21:43

to be compared to the great

21:45

Nuvalari. They struggled to match him.

21:47

They couldn't. But they could try

21:50

to imitate him. So to be

21:52

compared to Nuvalari by Ferrari is

21:54

to receive the very highest praise.

21:57

It's a good quote, isn't it?

21:59

Very good and that's absolutely right

22:01

and the rest as they say

22:04

is history. Nicki Louda left Ferrari

22:06

at the end of 1977 after

22:08

sealing his second world title and

22:11

Villeneuve got his chance and he'd

22:13

race for the team until his

22:15

death at the wheel in 1982.

22:18

Yes that brings us up to

22:20

speed quite quickly on Villeneuve's early

22:22

career and how he came to

22:25

race for Ferrari. So now let's

22:27

get into the three races that

22:29

we think exemplify the Vilnius genius

22:31

because, as you say Richard, all

22:34

of them were driven at the

22:36

wheel of a Ferrari. And to

22:38

be clear, we haven't selected wins

22:40

only. In fact, we chose

22:43

a win, a second. and a

22:45

third. And the first race

22:47

we've chosen is from 1979.

22:49

I bet people were expecting

22:51

this one. And the first

22:54

was chosen 1979, the 1979

22:56

French Grand Prix, in fact,

22:58

at Dijen. Now, if you're

23:00

familiar with Jilville-Nerve, you'll know

23:02

that this was not a

23:04

race you won. Although he'd

23:07

won three Formula One Grand

23:09

Prix by that time already.

23:11

The first of those winds

23:13

in freezing cold conditions on

23:15

home soil in Canada in 1978,

23:18

perhaps one of the very coldest

23:20

grompri of all time, I think

23:22

the mercury got up to about

23:25

five degrees at one point. Anyway,

23:27

at the circuit that now bears

23:29

his name, the circuit Gilville Nerve,

23:32

the second was in South Africa

23:34

the following year, 1979, and the

23:36

third, the very next grompri, Long

23:39

Beach. in the United States 1979,

23:41

where he won from pole

23:43

position and posted fastest lap.

23:45

And honestly, there are great

23:47

things to say about all

23:49

three of those Villeneuve wins,

23:52

but we haven't got time

23:54

to do all of those.

23:56

Besides, Dijon showcased something else.

23:58

And in many ways, it's... the defining

24:00

race of his whole career. Yeah,

24:02

and it's actually one of those

24:05

races that became famous for several

24:07

reasons, because some might remember it

24:09

not so much, even for Villeneuve's

24:11

swashbuckling battle with René Arnou, more

24:13

on which in a moment, but

24:16

for the fact that Jean-Pierre Jabouille

24:18

scored the very first F-1 victory

24:20

for a turbo-powered car in a

24:22

Renault on home soil no less.

24:25

French team, French chassis an engine,

24:27

French tires, French petrol, French oil.

24:29

and a French driver. Viv La

24:31

France. A hugely significant moment not

24:34

just for Renault and Jabouille but

24:36

for F1 in general because up

24:38

to then the renos had been

24:40

fast but hugely unreliable but within

24:43

a few years every car on

24:45

the grid will be powered by

24:47

a turbo. But nowadays, Dijon 79

24:49

is very much remembered for the

24:51

mother of all on-track battles between

24:54

Villeneuve in the Ferrari and Arnou,

24:56

who was driving the other Renault.

24:58

Yeah, and I'm glad you mentioned

25:00

Jabui because I've always had a

25:03

soft spot for him. You know,

25:05

as you say and as we're

25:07

going to go on to describe,

25:09

the race is known for the

25:12

battle for second, but actually... a

25:14

quarter of a minute up the

25:16

road winning in very very dominant

25:18

style was Jabui. Yeah and he'd

25:21

done all the work developing the

25:23

Renault turbo and had been laughed

25:25

out like the whole team when

25:27

they turned up at first and

25:29

you know the thing didn't go

25:32

very well and it looked eccentric

25:34

and it looked eccentric it was

25:36

pouring smoke he never finished a

25:38

race. So this was payback. It

25:41

was, it was. Back to the

25:43

subject. the fight for second place

25:45

between Vilnav and Arnu, which was

25:47

ultimately won by Vilnav, is often

25:50

regarded as the greatest wheel-to-wheel battle

25:52

in the history of formal one.

25:54

Now that is a very sweeping

25:56

statement, but I think we're going

25:59

to try and justify it, because

26:01

it may just... right. And by

26:03

the way, I urge you, dear

26:05

listener, if you haven't watched it,

26:07

to go and check it out

26:10

on YouTube because it really is

26:12

something else. So how did it

26:14

play out and why was it

26:16

such a pivotal race in the

26:19

Villeneuve cannon? Did you like the

26:21

use of the word cannon there?

26:23

I like pivotable actually. Pivitable cannons.

26:25

I'm going to write a novel

26:28

one day for pivotable canons. Anyway,

26:30

going back to the subject, Harvey

26:32

Postlethwaite, not pivotable necessarily, that is

26:34

a tongue twister, the pivotable possible

26:37

weight. Harvey Postlethwaite, the British engineer

26:39

who would later be hand-picked by

26:41

Enzo Ferrari to help... fixed the

26:43

team's chassis problems in 1981, if

26:45

you remember. He once said of

26:48

Villeneuve, and I'm going to read

26:50

another quote here, I've never known

26:52

a racing driver quite like him.

26:54

Given a choice between going for

26:57

the lead and destroying his tires,

26:59

or going carefully and finishing third,

27:01

Jill would always choose the former.

27:03

Great quote, and quite right. And

27:06

although Villenev did in fact beat

27:08

Anu to the second place that

27:10

we were fighting over at Dijen.

27:12

Dijon, 79, was a bit like

27:15

that, actually, because the renos of

27:17

Jabui and Anu locked out the

27:19

front row, making the most of

27:21

their much superior turbo horsepower. But

27:23

Villenev qualified third in his Ferrari,

27:26

3-1-2-T-4, with its torky 3-liter flat-12,

27:28

and he took the lead at

27:30

the start because the Renault turbos,

27:32

as they had a tendency to

27:35

do, if you remember, got bogged

27:37

down. Anyway, Jill knew that the

27:39

Rennoes were likely to catch him.

27:41

So what did he do? In

27:44

true Postlethwaite style, or in the

27:46

way that Postlethwaite described, he put

27:48

the hammer... down hard. Of course

27:50

he did destroy his tires in

27:53

the process but as Pothle's weight

27:55

said he was a driver Villeneuve

27:57

was a driver who'd rather risk

27:59

it all for the win than

28:01

play safe and settle for a

28:04

minor placing. He knew one way

28:06

to race and one way only

28:08

and that's what he did at

28:10

Dijon that day. Inevitably yes he

28:13

was caught by the Renault, Renault

28:15

plural. But that didn't happen until

28:17

that 46, with Jill even more

28:19

sideways everywhere than usual because he

28:22

liked to set the car up

28:24

with plenty of oversteer anyway. But

28:26

on that day the oversteer was

28:28

even more excessive because he'd ruined

28:31

his tires by overdriving. But as

28:33

I say, despite that it took

28:35

46 laps for Jabui to catch

28:37

him and finally forced his way

28:39

through. And then... We got the

28:42

Arnou battle, didn't we? Richard. Yes,

28:44

and there was clearly a lot

28:46

of respect between Arnou and Villeneuve,

28:48

and actually after this famous battle

28:51

they became very good friends. Their

28:53

backgrounds weren't too dissimilar in that

28:55

they both got into F1 the

28:57

hard way. Arnou actually started as

29:00

a racing mechanic for a long

29:02

time before earning his place in

29:04

the cockpit. And his character behind

29:06

the wheel was quite jeel-like too,

29:09

in that he was extremely brave

29:11

and determined. They both had a

29:13

kind of urchin quality, a hint

29:15

of recklessness, which is the sort

29:17

of thing that fans respond to.

29:20

And I gather that Arnu was

29:22

very popular with the mechanics, because

29:24

he was one of them. Yeah,

29:26

exactly. And do you remember he,

29:29

whenever you look at a picture

29:31

of... almost whenever you look at

29:33

a picture of Arno, he's hunched

29:35

over the wheel leaning forwards, his

29:38

head craned forward, particularly distinctive body

29:40

language in the car, I was

29:42

thought. Yeah, and it's interesting what

29:44

you said about the mechanics, it's

29:47

a bit like Herman Lange in

29:49

the Mercedes teams before the war,

29:51

when the rest of the team

29:53

were Aristotle von Brakich and Seaman,

29:55

and Lange had been a mechanic,

29:58

so he was... and he was

30:00

actually quicker than the other three.

30:02

So the mechanics were very keen

30:04

on him. Anyway, in this battle

30:07

between Villeneuve and Arnoux, there was

30:09

a level of trust there between

30:11

the two of them. I think

30:13

both of them knew the other

30:16

guy, even though they might have

30:18

been banging wheels. They weren't actually

30:20

trying to have each other off,

30:22

something which even in the late

30:25

70s could easily have been lethal.

30:27

And that is a good point well

30:29

made. and I don't want to get

30:31

sidetracked into comparing the 70s with now,

30:34

but it was different. You might

30:36

give no quarter, but you didn't really

30:38

try and have the other guy into

30:40

the barrier. You know, that kind of

30:43

combat hadn't been seen before, with contact,

30:45

you know. It was enthralling and exciting

30:47

to watch, but you didn't think

30:49

it was dangerous because they were taking

30:52

some sort of a guess. Well, yes.

30:54

Some did, but I agree with you,

30:56

and we'll come to that. But

30:59

yes, what you say about trust

31:01

was apparent, because even

31:03

though the two banged wheels,

31:06

as you say, several times

31:08

actually, and they diced, you know,

31:11

wheel-to-wheel neck and neck

31:13

over the final three laps of

31:15

the race. There was no deliberate,

31:18

let's put it that way, there

31:20

was no deliberate side-swiping or deliberately

31:22

aggressive behaviour, just hard, honest, wheel-to-wheel

31:24

racing. Anu had actually got ahead

31:27

with three laps to go, but

31:29

his Renault's turbo engine was suffering

31:31

a fuel pickup issue, so Villenev

31:33

was able to stick with him.

31:36

Jabawi had motored away, but Anu

31:38

could not. And with two laps

31:40

to go, Villeneuve launched an incredible

31:43

attack up the inside, at the

31:45

end of the start finish straight,

31:47

up the inside into turn one.

31:49

It's amazing, you must look at

31:51

it on YouTube if you haven't

31:53

seen it before. Breaking later than

31:55

late from way too far back,

31:57

actually. All four wheels locked up.

31:59

fire smoke everywhere, the car twitching

32:02

this way and that as he

32:04

held it all together, but it

32:06

worked. He'd nicked second place from

32:08

Anu against the odds, and I

32:11

don't think Anu was expecting him

32:13

to go from that far back.

32:15

But it wasn't enough to seal

32:17

the deal because, yeah, Anu was

32:19

a fighter, like Jill, and he

32:22

too was in fighting mode now,

32:24

and on the final lap, well,

32:26

it was pandemonium. Anu, yes, fought

32:28

back. As I say, the two

32:31

cars running side by side through

32:33

several turns, banging wheels, we've said

32:35

that a few times, but it's

32:37

true, running off track a bit

32:39

sometimes, neither driver giving an inch,

32:42

a millimeter. Eventually, with what our

32:44

mutual friend Jerry Donaldson describes as,

32:46

quote, a final fit of demonic

32:48

late breaking. Great phrase that, isn't

32:51

it? Vilnerv noses in front and

32:53

held onto his advantage to the

32:55

line. Actually... I don't mean to

32:57

criticize, and I'm really not. But

33:00

actually, Anu left the door open

33:02

at a crucial moment. I've actually

33:04

watched these last laps on YouTube

33:06

with Kevin Magnuson many times. Kevin

33:08

loves that kind of thing. He

33:11

loves the history of the sport.

33:13

He's really interested in it. And

33:15

his hero, by the way, is

33:17

Sterling Moss. How about that? Who

33:20

obviously had retired long before Kevin

33:22

was born. Kevin always looks wistful

33:24

at that point when we're watching

33:26

it, as if to say, oh

33:28

Renee, take a tighter line mate.

33:31

You can just see it on

33:33

Kevin the racer's face. Anyway, it

33:35

was truly fantastic stuff and an

33:37

example of what made Villeneuve great,

33:40

that oh so stubborn refusal to

33:42

accept that he was beaten. That,

33:44

how can I put it, that

33:46

bloody-minded determination to battle every inch

33:48

of the way. And by the

33:51

way, personal reminiscence on the day

33:53

in 19... 79, age 16, I

33:55

watched it alone in my bedroom

33:57

at home in London on an

34:00

11-inch black and white portable TV,

34:02

which is all I had. It's

34:04

all we had in the house,

34:06

actually. And I remember feeling that

34:08

I was going to burst with

34:11

enthusiasm afterwards, but there was no

34:13

one I could talk to about

34:15

it. No one I knew was

34:17

remotely interested in formal one. It

34:20

wasn't nearly as popular as it

34:22

is now, of course. My brother

34:24

liked cricket liked cricket. My dad

34:26

liked tennis. My mom liked no

34:28

sports at all. And the next

34:31

day at school, no one had

34:33

watched it. No one. Yeah, as

34:35

I say, Form 1 was nothing

34:37

like as popular then as it

34:40

would later become, and none of

34:42

my maids had even heard of

34:44

Gil Villenev or René Arnou. Anyway,

34:46

Richard, have you... ever seen a

34:49

better on-track fight in Form 1?

34:51

And do you remember where he

34:53

were when he watched it? I

34:55

don't, in fact. I'm sorry, I

34:57

don't have your pin-sharp memory of

35:00

1979, but I was watching it

35:02

on the tele for sure. And

35:04

no, in answer to your question,

35:06

I've never seen a more spectacular

35:09

on-track fight than that one. and

35:11

of course it took place in

35:13

the days before tarmac runoff areas

35:15

and penalties for exceeding track limits.

35:17

Which we could we could talk

35:20

about at length if we wanted

35:22

to. We probably will do one

35:24

day but you know nobody was

35:26

wagging a finger up them they

35:29

were just quite rightly you know

35:31

allowed to get on with it

35:33

and be grown-ups and sorted out

35:35

themselves. Although actually a grand pri

35:37

of... just a little while before

35:40

we recorded this episode at Austin,

35:42

Texas, produced a battle between Max

35:44

Vistapin and Lando Norris, but wasn't

35:46

entirely dissimilar. I knew you wouldn't

35:49

be able to resist making a

35:51

comparison with today. No, and I

35:53

was thinking about Dijen 79 while

35:55

I was watching it, although the

35:57

Max and Lando show came to

36:00

an unhappy end, to do with

36:02

track limits and not showing the

36:04

other driver respect by allowing him

36:06

space. which, despite the extreme ferocity

36:09

of their battle, is what Jil

36:11

and Renee managed to do. Indeed

36:13

they did. And clearly the crowd

36:15

at Dijon and those watching on

36:17

TV around the world, had been

36:20

absolutely captivated by what went on.

36:22

And the two protagonists loved it

36:24

too, as did Enso Ferrari, who

36:26

cooed about his wonderful driver. and

36:29

Mario Andretti famously described Villeneuve and

36:31

Arneux as a couple of young

36:33

lions clawing at each other. What

36:35

a good quote. Yeah, typical Mario.

36:37

But not everyone was quite as

36:40

glowing about what had taken place.

36:42

Maroforgieri, who was Ferrari's chief designer,

36:44

thought Villeneuve had taken too many

36:46

risks, and some senior members of

36:49

the Grand Prix Drivers Association, agreed

36:51

with him. In fact, at the

36:53

next race, Silverstone, during a GPDA

36:55

meeting, Villeneuve and Arnou were widely

36:58

admonished in front of their peers

37:00

by the likes of Villeneuve's teammate,

37:02

Jodhi Shector, Nikki Lauder, and Emerson

37:04

Fittipaldi, all of whom thought the

37:06

way the pair had driven was

37:09

far too dangerous. Or maybe it

37:11

was too exciting and maybe it

37:13

was. Do you think there was

37:15

a bit of envy? I think

37:18

there probably was, yeah. the great

37:20

journalist Nigel Roebuck, another mutual friend

37:22

of ours, who was good friends

37:24

with Vilna, particularly good friends, close

37:26

to Vilnaub. The Canadian couldn't believe

37:29

the things these senior drivers were

37:31

saying. Jesus, he said to Roebuck,

37:33

they're supposed to be racing drivers.

37:35

But what do you think, Matt,

37:38

were Schecter and Coe's concerns valid

37:40

at the time? Well, it's a

37:42

good question. As I've already said,

37:44

John Watson was also one of

37:46

the critics of the Villeneuve Arnou

37:49

Battle at Dijen, as well as

37:51

the drivers you've mentioned, and I

37:53

think you have to remember that

37:55

this was the 1970s. You know,

37:58

all those drivers had seen tragedy.

38:00

those drivers had seen death. Close

38:02

up. Louder had nearly died

38:04

himself at Nurbugring in 1976,

38:07

of course. Schecter, well, Schecter

38:09

had stopped at Watkins Glen

38:11

in 1973, hoping to help

38:13

Francois Severe, whose tural he'd

38:15

been following in practice, when

38:17

Severe had his big shun

38:19

to the uphill esses there.

38:21

And, I mean, Jodie's told

38:23

me about this, and what

38:25

Jodie saw when he got

38:27

out to have a look.

38:29

There's no easy way to

38:31

describe this, but anyway, one driver

38:34

in two halves. He never quite got

38:36

over it. He certainly never, well,

38:38

he certainly raced in a more

38:41

circumspect way after that, even though

38:43

he was still quick, very quick,

38:45

and indeed he won the Formula

38:48

One Drivers World Championship six years

38:50

later. And who else did we

38:52

mention? Right, yes, um, Fiddipaldi and

38:55

Watson had also... had more than

38:57

their fair share of horrors in the

38:59

1970s, Emerson had had to cope with

39:02

the death of his team leader at

39:04

Lotus, I mean, Yoch and Rint, I

39:06

mean, obviously, at Monza in 1970, when

39:09

he was a very raw new rookie.

39:11

And Watty had seen a lot of

39:13

bad stuff, too. I mean, by the

39:16

way, as we've said, Watty and Emerson

39:18

Fiddipoldi, both stopped to try to help

39:20

Nicki Louda at Noberger at

39:23

Nobagrin. So you know they'd all

39:25

seen bad stuff and I think

39:27

we should remember that. So I

39:29

don't blame them, no. And although

39:31

I do have a hell of

39:33

a lot of respect for Mario

39:35

Andretti, I think as a racing

39:37

driver, we all do, obviously. But

39:39

he could be, yeah, get ready

39:41

for a bit of a controversial

39:43

statement, but Andretti could be a

39:45

bit of a rock ape sometimes

39:47

too. I remember talking to

39:49

Johnny Rutherford, and Mario Andretti.

39:52

actually. When I was an

39:54

indie in 2017, when I

39:56

was there as a McLaren

39:59

guy, to handle the Combs

40:01

and PR operation around Fernando's. Fernando

40:03

Alonso's first attempt at the Indy

40:05

500 which you probably remember. I

40:08

do and you did very well

40:10

with the publicity out of that

40:12

as I recall. That was the

40:15

whole plan. I mean yes Fernando

40:17

you're going to go and try

40:19

and win the Indy 500 but

40:22

really we needed to get some

40:24

positive PR for our sponsors where

40:26

we weren't getting any informal one.

40:29

If you remember he skipped Monaco

40:31

to do it. In Jim Clark

40:33

style. Anyway, unfortunately he didn't win.

40:36

But anyway, Rutherford was full of

40:38

praise for both of them, obviously,

40:40

Andreti and Foyt, not surprisingly, because,

40:42

you know, they're both absolute indie

40:45

legends, as by the way, Rutherford

40:47

is as well. But Johnny, Johnny

40:49

Rutherford, left me in no doubt

40:52

that of the two, the driver

40:54

he'd rather go wheel to wheel

40:56

with, was AJ, not Mario. No

40:59

question about it. Interesting. So that's

41:01

Dijon 79 and after this short

41:03

break, we'll look at another of

41:06

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43:17

The next race we're going to

43:20

talk about is the 1981 Spanish

43:22

Grand Prix at Harama, which is

43:24

often regarded as Vilnerve's greatest ever

43:27

race. Certainly his greatest ever win

43:29

and with good reason in my

43:31

opinion. How shall we put it?

43:34

That year's Ferrari, the 126CK, was

43:36

not a very good car. Would

43:38

we go so far as to

43:40

call it, this is a technical

43:43

term I'm going to use now,

43:45

a shit box? Would we Richard?

43:47

Perhaps you could give that in

43:50

your Nikki louder voice. It was

43:52

a total shit box. Yeah, excellent.

43:54

I'm sorry. but we would call

43:57

it one of those. That is

43:59

an appropriate term. However, by then

44:01

Ferrari had a turbo engine, but

44:04

although it was very powerful engine,

44:06

potentially the most powerful engine on

44:08

the grid in fact, it suffered

44:11

terribly from turbo lag, which for

44:13

listeners who haven't steeped themselves in

44:15

F1 jargon, although I'm sure many

44:17

of our listeners have, is a

44:20

delayed and uneven delivery of power.

44:22

But even worse than that was

44:24

the car's handling. Harvey Posselthwaite, we've

44:27

mentioned him earlier, and he'd been

44:29

drafted in, as I said, to

44:31

help Ferrari solve their car problems,

44:34

estimated that the Ferrari 126K had,

44:36

quote, a quarter of the downforce

44:38

that the Williams or Brabam had

44:41

that year, and it had an

44:43

incredibly stiff ride too. They probably

44:45

had less downforce than the leisure

44:47

and various others as well. Anyway,

44:50

Villeneuve referred to it as, another

44:52

nice quote, my big red Cadillac,

44:54

because it would go fast enough

44:57

on the straits but was awful

44:59

around the corners. But despite all

45:01

that, he arrived in Spain off

45:04

the back of an improbable, remarkable

45:06

victory at Monaco. And that's another

45:08

great race that we could have

45:11

spoken about, actually, but again we

45:13

haven't got time. But there, Monaco...

45:15

An out-of-this-world qualifying lap by Villeneuve

45:18

in that truck of a Ferrari

45:20

had put him second on the

45:22

grid to Nelson Pique's underweight, Brabam,

45:24

may I say? Surely not. Allegedly.

45:27

A full second faster than the

45:29

next turbo powered car and nearly

45:31

two and a half seconds, get

45:34

that, two and a half seconds

45:36

quicker than his Ferrari teammate Didier

45:38

Peroni, who was absolutely no slouch

45:41

himself, Didier Peroni, was he? He

45:43

was a fast driver. Yeah, really

45:45

quick. Really quick. Anyway, Vilnerve then

45:48

kept his cool in the race

45:50

and when PK crashed out and

45:52

Alan Jones ran out of... fuel,

45:55

he was there to take a

45:57

truly unlikely victory. And that was

45:59

Monaco, of course. Yes, that was

46:01

a great win. I mean, pretty

46:04

well, all wins at Monaco, great

46:06

wins one way or another. And

46:08

it showed that Gile had it

46:11

in him to do what all

46:13

the greats do, which is win

46:15

in a poor car. Absolutely. Absolutely.

46:18

contrary to its driver's opinions, I

46:20

rather liked the 126CK because it's

46:22

always thrilling to watch a great

46:25

driver working with a car that

46:27

has more power than its chassis

46:29

can handle. I agree with you

46:31

to be fair. I agree. And

46:33

actually it's quite pretty in its

46:36

funny way. But that Monaco win

46:38

owed a fair amount to circumstance

46:40

and the misfortune of others, whereas

46:42

his win at Harama was better

46:44

still because it was all down

46:46

to him. He qualified seventh on

46:48

the grid and fully expected his

46:50

Ferrari to destroy its tires early

46:52

on in the race. And according

46:54

to another of our journalist friends

46:57

Peter Windsor, Jill said that the

46:59

handling was so spectacularly bad that

47:01

the marshals were taking cover every

47:03

time he arrived at a corner.

47:05

great image. Fabulous. Yeah. But after

47:07

he'd sized his way up to

47:09

third at the start and then

47:11

passed Carlos Roytermans Williams per second

47:14

on lap two, Villeneuve was in

47:16

a position to inherit the lead

47:18

on lap 14 when Alan Jones,

47:20

who was leading in his Williams,

47:22

made a mistake and went off.

47:24

So with 66 laps to go

47:27

and a cue of much quicker

47:29

cars behind him, no one was

47:31

seriously expecting Villeneuve to stay in

47:33

front. But that's just what he

47:35

did. Yes, he did. And I

47:38

think I'd like to read you

47:40

another bit of Jerry Donaldson's Villeneuve

47:42

book now, because he quite brilliantly

47:45

summarises the last part of the

47:47

race when Villeneuve was defying the

47:49

odds to cling on to the

47:51

lead. So this is Jerry now

47:54

quoted. For the last 18 laps,

47:56

the first five roared around and

47:58

around like a high... speed freight

48:00

train. A Ferrari engine leading the

48:02

cars of Lijier, Jacques Lafitte, McLaren,

48:05

John Watson, and Williams, Carlos Roytiman,

48:07

with a Lotus Caboose, manned by

48:09

Elio Diangelis, who had a small

48:11

lead over teammate Nigel Mansell, who

48:13

was sixth. Sorry, I was laughing

48:15

then, because if you aren't aware

48:17

of what a caboose is, remember

48:19

that Jerry is Canadian. A caboose

48:22

is a railroad car coupled to

48:24

the end of a North American

48:26

freight train. Anyway, here's Jerry's pros

48:28

again. Quote, while his followers cornered

48:30

as if on rails, Villeneuve's tired

48:32

tires afforded him ever more precarious

48:34

purchase on an increasingly dirty track

48:36

surface. The card dotted drunkenly on

48:39

tiptoe through each of Harama's 16

48:41

bends. Then, as the power of

48:43

550 prancing horses, beneath his right

48:45

foot was given full rain, the

48:47

Ferrari surged ahead on the straits.

48:49

His virtuoso performance created a concertina-like

48:51

effect. As the questing cue behind

48:53

him closed up in the corners,

48:56

then fell back in momentary exasperation,

48:58

before squeezing in behind him yet

49:00

again, the pace was frenetic, the

49:02

heat intense, and the tension electric,

49:04

as the final laps were reeled

49:06

off, Jill had only to lose

49:08

concentration, fumble a gear change, or

49:10

slide a millimeter offline, and he

49:13

would instantly switch from Victor, to

49:15

vanquished. Fantastic writing isn't it? Typical

49:17

of Jerry. Typical of Jerry. Anyway,

49:19

it describes so well the tight

49:21

trope that Villeneuve was walking or

49:23

driving. He eventually held on to

49:25

win by a fifth of a

49:27

second only from Lafitte with the

49:30

top five drive. covered by just

49:32

1.24 seconds. Oh, and here's a

49:34

nice anorak fact, our first of

49:36

this pod. In the last few

49:38

laps, Villeneuve switched off his rev

49:40

limiter to hell with the consequences,

49:42

and his engine held together to

49:44

the finish despite that abuse. If

49:46

that's not a Nivalari touch, I

49:49

don't know what is. It really

49:51

is. Nivalari wouldn't have had much

49:53

time to revimiters in those circumstances

49:55

either. And it would have been

49:57

very easy at that stage for

49:59

Jil to make a mistake. And

50:01

actually he wasn't particularly averse to

50:03

making mistakes, largely because he pushed

50:06

the limits so much. In fact,

50:08

you remember we talked about his

50:10

first F1 race at Silverstone, the

50:12

McLaren, when he'd surprised the team

50:14

and rather disconcerted them by spinning

50:16

at nearly every corner in practice.

50:18

Some people were shocked by that,

50:20

but they didn't know Jil. And

50:23

it seemed like a pretty undisciplined...

50:25

way for a rookie to behave.

50:27

But the truth was different and

50:29

when he was asked about it

50:31

he said, how else can I

50:33

tell how fast I'm going? It

50:35

was just his way of finding

50:37

the limit. Perfectly logical. In Spain

50:40

he knew his and the car's

50:42

limits and he drove right up

50:44

to, but never over them. Villeneuve's

50:46

often remembered is a flamboyant swashbuckling

50:48

driver, a kind of cavalier of

50:50

the track, but Spain showed that

50:52

he was a clever calculating one

50:54

too. He could be around head

50:57

when he needed to be. Indeed,

50:59

and that's well put, I think,

51:01

and Villeneuve would go on to

51:03

say that it was the best

51:05

raise of his life. That was

51:07

his view. And Gordon Murray, the

51:09

great Gordon Murray, who was then

51:11

Brabham's lead designer, went a step

51:14

further. saying the following and here's

51:16

a Murray quote. I honestly think

51:18

it was the greatest drive I've

51:20

ever seen by anybody. I'm an

51:22

extraordinary quote, is it? An amazing

51:24

quote. And he goes on to

51:26

say. that chassis is awful worse

51:28

by far than that of any

51:31

other driver. His driving was just

51:33

unreal. To get that car around

51:35

80 laps without making mistake is

51:37

an achievement. To do it when

51:39

you're leading and under constant pressure

51:41

is unbelievable. Great quote Richard where

51:43

do you stand on the art?

51:45

of the defensive drive, because actually

51:48

that's what we're talking about. It

51:50

was a defensive drive. They're very

51:52

rare in Formula One these days,

51:54

because of the advent of DRS,

51:56

of course. Is that a shame?

51:58

Well, you wouldn't want to see

52:00

a defensive drive winning a race

52:02

too often, but I do miss

52:05

them a bit, whether they come

52:07

off, as Jill's mesmerizing drive did.

52:09

or even when they come spectacularly

52:11

unstuck. Matt you're almost old enough

52:13

to remember Monaco in 1970 when

52:15

Jack Brabham crashed on the last

52:17

corner of the final lap handing

52:19

the win to Yock and Rint

52:22

who'd been hounding him for lap

52:24

after lap. So you know that

52:26

kind of thing I used to

52:28

think added to the entertainment. I

52:30

do too. I do too. It's

52:32

not all about overtaking. No it

52:34

isn't. We've spoken about how Enso

52:36

Ferrari came to love Jilvilnerv, perhaps

52:39

more than any driver he'd worked

52:41

with before, by Tatsio Novollari. After

52:43

Spain, Enso said, Jilvilnerv on Sunday

52:45

made me live again the legend

52:47

of Tatsio Novollari. And as I

52:49

said earlier, there's no higher praise.

52:51

But what do you think, Matt?

52:53

Do you think this was his

52:55

best race? It certainly feels like

52:58

the one where Gil answered a

53:00

lot of critics who thought he

53:02

could perhaps only drive one way.

53:04

Oh yes, I do. I do

53:06

think it was his best race.

53:08

In fact, I once wrote a

53:10

column about that race for motorsport.

53:12

And my last paragraph was, was

53:15

it Villenev's greatest... race victory. It

53:17

was. It was one of the

53:19

greatest race victories of all time.

53:21

And I meant by anyone, actually.

53:23

And that feels like a good

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time for our final ad break.

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conditions apply. We're going to move

54:40

on now to the final race

54:42

in our Jill Vilnav trilogy, and

54:44

again it's from 1981. We've gone

54:46

for drum roll. the 1981 Canadian

54:48

Grand Prix, which might be a

54:50

surprise to some, but we think

54:52

it's another race that underpins Villeneuve's

54:54

legendary ability and status. Notably, this

54:57

was a wet race. And

54:59

if you talk

55:01

about Formula One's

55:03

greatest drivers, they

55:05

invariably excelled in

55:07

the wet. You

55:09

know, I'm talking

55:11

about Clark, Stewart,

55:14

Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton,

55:16

Verstappen, or Brilliant

55:18

in the Wet.

55:20

And actually, well

55:22

before the 1981

55:24

Canadian Grand Prix

55:26

in Montreal, Villeneuve's

55:28

prowess in the

55:31

wet was already

55:33

well known. One

55:35

race that sticks

55:37

in the memory

55:39

is the 1979

55:41

United States Grand

55:43

Prix at Watkins

55:45

Glen, a very

55:48

quick, very challenging

55:50

circuit in the

55:52

dry, let alone

55:54

in the wet.

55:56

On the Friday,

55:58

it absolutely chucked

56:00

it down. Most

56:02

drivers thought it

56:04

was too wet

56:07

even to go

56:09

out in the

56:11

first session. Newly

56:13

crowned world champion,

56:15

Jody Schecter, was

56:17

one of those

56:19

to venture out,

56:21

and he admitted

56:24

he'd scared himself

56:26

rigid, posting a

56:28

lap in torrential

56:30

conditions of two

56:32

minutes and eleven

56:34

seconds. Remember that,

56:36

two minutes and

56:38

eleven seconds. He

56:41

said, Jody, I

56:43

thought I had

56:45

to be quickest

56:47

afterwards. Then I

56:49

saw Jill's time.

56:51

I still don't

56:53

really understand how

56:55

it was possible.

56:58

That was his

57:00

quote. And guess

57:02

what Jill's time

57:04

was? Two minutes

57:06

and one second.

57:08

Almost ten seconds

57:10

faster than his

57:12

teammate Schecter had

57:15

managed. And by

57:17

the way, Schecter

57:19

had thought he

57:21

must be fastest.

57:23

He thought he'd

57:25

nailed it that

57:27

well. But

57:29

he'd been beaten by ten seconds

57:32

in the same car. And

57:34

far from being scared, Jill was

57:36

beaming from ear to ear

57:38

when he returned to the pits

57:40

apparently. And that day, many

57:42

of his peers admitted that Villeneuve

57:45

was a cut above. Our

57:47

mutual friend Nigel Robuck, who

57:52

a watching Jack

57:54

Lafitte, turned to him

57:56

that day and

57:58

said, look at him.

58:00

He's different from

58:03

the rest. of us on a

58:05

separate level. Can't argue with that. And

58:07

the early years in snowmobiles must have

58:09

had a lot to do with it

58:11

when Jil was learning how to feel

58:13

the edge of adhesion in those conditions.

58:15

Chris Ammon actually said the only driver

58:18

he ever saw with as much car

58:20

control as Jil was Jimmy Clark. What

58:22

massively high praise again? Yeah, it's like

58:24

being in bed in Navalari by Ferrari.

58:26

It is, it is. But the big

58:28

difference between that wet race at Watkins

58:31

Glen in 1979 and the

58:33

one we're talking about at

58:35

Montreal in 1981 was that

58:37

the 1979 Ferrari was a

58:39

nicely balanced car with a

58:41

smooth power delivery from a

58:43

normally aspirated flat 12 engine.

58:45

Whereas the turbocharged 81 Ferrari

58:47

as we mentioned was not.

58:49

Yeah, after all the 79

58:52

Ferrari was a world championship

58:54

winning car. The Montreal circuit

58:56

on the Ile Notre Dame

58:58

is about 80 kilometers or

59:00

so from Beethiaville where Giel grew

59:02

up with his younger brother Jacques.

59:04

And the 1981 Canadian Grand Prix

59:06

is notable for being the first

59:08

of three Grand Prix where Jacques

59:10

appeared in an F-1 car. He

59:12

tried and failed to qualify an

59:15

arrows A-3, but that's another story

59:17

and an an anorak fact. It

59:19

is a good anorak fact. I

59:21

don't think we can devote a

59:23

podcast to the arrows to the

59:25

arrows eight. perhaps. But it's a

59:27

good and right fact. Anyway, where

59:29

were we? Yes, Jack. I

59:31

mean Jack Senior, of

59:34

course, not the 1997

59:36

Formula One champion, Jack

59:38

Junior. Jack Senior didn't

59:41

qualify. Jill qualified in

59:43

11th place, not great. One place

59:45

ahead of his Ferrari teammate Didier

59:47

Peroni. although he managed to write

59:50

his car off in practice and

59:52

had to use a spare car

59:54

for the race in the days

59:56

when teams were allowed spare cars

59:58

of course. But... In contrast to

1:00:01

qualifying, the race would be not

1:00:03

dry but wet. Very, very wet.

1:00:05

And the rain favoured the teams

1:00:08

contracted to Michelin, whose rain tires

1:00:10

were impressively gripier than the Goodyear

1:00:12

wet. It wasn't therefore surprising that

1:00:15

two seasoned old hands, who had

1:00:17

decent but not brilliant but decent

1:00:19

cars underneath them, fitted with Michelin's,

1:00:22

They did rather well. I'm talking

1:00:24

about Jacques Lafitte in Eligier and

1:00:26

John Watson in a McLaren. And

1:00:29

they had qualified alongside each other

1:00:31

on the fifth row, so nothing

1:00:34

special, but in the downpour on

1:00:36

race day, they drove superbly, both

1:00:38

of them on Michelin's, to finish

1:00:41

first and second, just six seconds

1:00:43

apart. It was actually Lafitte's sixth

1:00:45

and final Formula One win, and

1:00:48

fair play to him for that.

1:00:50

But we're actually here to talk

1:00:52

about Villeneuve's eventful run to third,

1:00:55

so let's do that. On lap

1:00:57

40 of 63, Jill came up

1:00:59

to lap Alio de Angeles's good

1:01:02

year tired Lotus at the happen,

1:01:04

and the two cars collided. Both

1:01:07

drivers spun, but both got going

1:01:09

again. Villeneuve, now handicapped by a

1:01:11

loose front wing. characteristically undaunted, totally

1:01:14

undaunted, Villeneuve. Well, what do you

1:01:16

think? He continued to race at

1:01:18

full speed. Obviously, that was Jill.

1:01:21

And as he did so, the

1:01:23

airflow licked around his Ferrari's loose

1:01:25

front wing and the nose cone

1:01:28

to which it was attached, kind

1:01:30

of gradually bending the whole front

1:01:33

assembly of the bodywork more and

1:01:35

more, finally twisting it. up and

1:01:37

in front of the cockpit so

1:01:40

that he could see past it

1:01:42

only by craning his head from

1:01:44

side to side. I mean, Google

1:01:47

it. The photographs of his car

1:01:49

at that... point are truly amazing.

1:01:51

You know a loss of front

1:01:54

down force must have been the

1:01:56

least of his worries he could

1:01:58

barely see. Yeah and of course

1:02:01

you'd be immediately black flagged at

1:02:03

that point these days wouldn't you

1:02:06

or at least you'd be made

1:02:08

to come into the pits at

1:02:10

once and have the loose bodywork

1:02:13

removed and replaced and if you

1:02:15

couldn't replace it you'd be wheeled

1:02:17

away. Yes and actually it's interesting

1:02:20

you should say that because at

1:02:22

the time Jackie Stewart who was

1:02:24

in the TV commentary booth, predicted

1:02:27

exactly that. He said he's going

1:02:29

to be blackfagged, but it never

1:02:31

happened. I mean, he was the

1:02:34

local hero at home, of course.

1:02:36

Anyway, instead, Villeneuve hatched a plan.

1:02:39

The details of what happened next

1:02:41

were little reported at the time,

1:02:43

but they were witnessed and later

1:02:46

written down by the one photographer

1:02:48

who was standing resolutely, bravely, at

1:02:50

the hapin soaked to the skin

1:02:53

as the rain continued to fall.

1:02:55

Richard Kelly. I'll quote him if

1:02:57

I may, because as I say

1:03:00

he wrote about it and it's

1:03:02

great stuff. Here's the quote. Jill's

1:03:05

only chance was to deliberately break

1:03:07

the nose cone and front wing

1:03:09

clean off under braking. and the

1:03:12

hairpin was where I thought he

1:03:14

would do it. Sure enough, a

1:03:16

few laps later, he absolutely buried

1:03:19

the break pedal, slamming the Ferrari's

1:03:21

front end onto the pavement. The

1:03:23

nose and front wing duly broke

1:03:26

free as they jammed down onto

1:03:28

the asphalt. Very smart thinking, Richard,

1:03:30

but very jill. He well amazing

1:03:33

that he not only thought of

1:03:35

it, that managed to execute it.

1:03:38

And he actually had quite a

1:03:40

lot to think about apart from

1:03:42

that, because the Ferraris turbo engine

1:03:45

was misfiring on part throttle, which

1:03:47

of course in the rain part

1:03:49

throttle is what you need, all

1:03:52

the way through the race. It's

1:03:54

an astonishing... drive as, you know,

1:03:56

I'm glad we've selected it as

1:03:59

one of these three because it's

1:04:01

not everybody's, it's not on everybody's

1:04:03

list, but I'm glad we have.

1:04:06

Anyway, what happened next? Well, finally

1:04:08

free of his bent up front

1:04:11

wing and those cone, Vilnerv managed

1:04:13

to control the resulting absolutely giant

1:04:15

tank slapper. You can see it

1:04:18

on YouTube, by the way. And

1:04:20

yes, he completed the race in

1:04:22

his Ferrari. technical term warning coming

1:04:25

up, shitbox, minus bodywork in torrential

1:04:27

rain, finishing third, having lapped everyone

1:04:29

except the two men ahead of

1:04:32

him. And get this, 11 drivers

1:04:34

spun off or crashed out. And

1:04:37

one, Alan Jones, not really the

1:04:39

kind of person you regard as

1:04:41

a shrinking violet, retired voluntarily. Even

1:04:44

Jack Lafitte, who won, said afterwards,

1:04:46

quote, I didn't like driving today.

1:04:48

It's not a great quote, but

1:04:51

it's a very clear quote. John

1:04:53

Watson, second, better quote, as follows,

1:04:55

today's conditions were the worst I've

1:04:58

ever raced in. Guess what Villeneuve

1:05:00

said? I'll tell you. Oh, it

1:05:02

wasn't too bad. Yeah, and that's

1:05:05

another very clear example, not just

1:05:07

of Vealnerv's driving ability, but of

1:05:10

his whole attitude to racing. As

1:05:12

Dennis Jenkins, a motorsport wrote in

1:05:14

his race report, he just doesn't

1:05:17

know the meaning of giving up.

1:05:19

And for Jenks, who wrote a

1:05:21

wonderful book called The Racing Driver,

1:05:24

that was the way a real

1:05:26

racer should think. Marroforgieri once described

1:05:28

Geel as having what he called

1:05:31

a rage to win greater than

1:05:33

any driver he'd known. Even though

1:05:35

Geel didn't win on this day,

1:05:38

his desire to finish and finish

1:05:40

well was obvious and that's what

1:05:43

endeared him so much to fans

1:05:45

around the world. Fans like you

1:05:47

and me Matt I think. a

1:05:50

rage to win is a great

1:05:52

phrase and very apt and accurate

1:05:54

in describing Jill Villeneuve. Anyway that

1:05:57

wraps up the third and final

1:05:59

race in our trilogy but don't

1:06:01

go away yet listeners please because

1:06:04

before we go I want to

1:06:06

bring us back to the start

1:06:09

of our conversation when we talked

1:06:11

about Villeneuve being mentioned in the

1:06:13

same breath as drivers like Senna

1:06:16

Clark Fangeo, and so on. Unlike

1:06:18

those drivers, Jill never won the

1:06:20

Formula One Drivers World Championship. He

1:06:23

only won six Grand Prix. Although

1:06:25

perhaps he might have won if

1:06:27

he hadn't been killed in 1982.

1:06:30

He might have won that year.

1:06:32

He probably would have done, I

1:06:34

think. But maybe there's another title

1:06:37

we can bestow on him other

1:06:39

than World Champion. We've titled this

1:06:42

episode three races that explain the

1:06:44

genius of Gil Villenev. Do you

1:06:46

think genius is an apt term,

1:06:49

Richard? Well, if he can be

1:06:51

talked about in the same breath

1:06:53

as Novollari, then to my mind

1:06:56

that settles it because Novollari was

1:06:58

certainly a genius. Yeah. Was she

1:07:00

the best, though, or the quickest?

1:07:03

Hmm. Better than Fangeo or Schumacher,

1:07:05

quicker than Senor or Clark? Certainly

1:07:07

we can say he was the

1:07:10

most thrilling anyway. I think that's

1:07:12

a good description. Yeah, the first

1:07:15

time I saw him live I

1:07:17

was standing in the Lotus pit

1:07:19

at Zolda in 1978 when he

1:07:22

came tearing into the pit next

1:07:24

door during the race with the

1:07:26

Ferrari's left front tire in shreds.

1:07:29

There were no speed limits in

1:07:31

the pit lane in those days.

1:07:33

He'd been lying second behind Mario

1:07:36

Andretti's Lotus 79, which was simply

1:07:38

uncatchable. And he'd done almost a

1:07:41

whole lap on that disintegrating tire.

1:07:43

And back then, of course, Ferrari

1:07:45

pit stops weren't the precisely choreographed

1:07:48

events they are today. Not always

1:07:50

today. Well, no, that's true, but

1:07:52

mostly, but in those days, you

1:07:55

know, they were something very... different.

1:07:57

So excitement was guaranteed even when

1:07:59

Jill wasn't going to finish higher

1:08:02

than four thanks to that stop.

1:08:04

One thing that's clear is that

1:08:06

while his daredevil tactics may have

1:08:09

exasperated some of his rivals from

1:08:11

time to time, there's no doubt

1:08:14

that they all respected his ability

1:08:16

enormously, and they almost universally liked

1:08:18

him as a person too, because

1:08:21

he was genuine, honest and unpolitical.

1:08:23

If I can just stop you

1:08:25

there a second, I never met

1:08:28

him. I was 19 when he

1:08:30

died. Did you ever meet him? Not

1:08:32

really, I mean, sort of brushed against

1:08:34

him as it were, but I never

1:08:36

sat down and had a compass. But

1:08:38

people who did always say what a

1:08:40

lovely champion was. Yeah, warm to him.

1:08:42

I think that's absolutely right. So you

1:08:45

know, whether he was going around

1:08:47

the outside of Alan Jones through

1:08:49

the 180 degree Tarzan at Zandvut

1:08:51

or diving inside Mario Andretti into

1:08:54

Paddock Bend at Brands Hatch, those

1:08:56

guys, two world champions, unhesitatingly. gave

1:08:58

him enough room to do what

1:09:00

he wanted to do. Yeah, indeed.

1:09:02

I also remember his unselfishness. Monza

1:09:05

in 79, I was in a

1:09:07

grandstand between the two Lesmo curves,

1:09:09

watching him follow in Jodie Scheckter's

1:09:11

wheel tracks for the whole race,

1:09:14

first and second. Jill was already

1:09:16

a Grand Prix winner, but he

1:09:18

was... working under team orders so

1:09:20

that his team leader could take

1:09:22

maximum points for the win and

1:09:24

clinch the world championship, which is

1:09:27

what happened. And there was no

1:09:29

hint of a complaint from Villeneuve,

1:09:31

and that took discipline. Yes, although

1:09:33

to be fair to Jody, and

1:09:36

by the way, as I say, I

1:09:38

never met Jill, but I know Jody

1:09:40

quite well and like him a lot,

1:09:42

but to be fair to Jody, he

1:09:44

says now that he gradually started shifting

1:09:46

shifting up. on that day at Monza

1:09:48

in 1979, shifting up at lower

1:09:50

and lower revs to make sure

1:09:53

that his engine would last to

1:09:55

the end. First at 12,000 RPM,

1:09:57

which was the normal shift-up point,

1:09:59

then at a... 11,000 and finally

1:10:01

at just 10,000. And running just

1:10:03

behind, Jill knew about that. Jill

1:10:05

knew what he Jody was doing,

1:10:07

and he duly ran in line

1:10:10

of stern, as you say. But

1:10:12

neither of them was driving anywhere

1:10:14

near the limit. So I've always

1:10:16

thought it was a bit unfair

1:10:18

on Jody when people said, Jill

1:10:21

could easily have won that race.

1:10:23

The key thing, though, is, and

1:10:25

as you say, is that Villeneuve

1:10:27

didn't do the dirty on Schechter

1:10:29

at the very end to Nick

1:10:32

the Win on the Sly, as

1:10:34

Pyroni did to Villeneuve a dimler

1:10:36

three years later, which I think

1:10:38

is another podcast. Yes, it is.

1:10:40

Another day. But I still reckon

1:10:43

that had they been racing each

1:10:45

other properly, Jill could have taken

1:10:47

Jodie if he'd been feeling selfish.

1:10:49

But today at Ferrari he has

1:10:51

almost godlike status. I'm sure you

1:10:54

know the famous photo of Jill

1:10:56

sitting next to Enso Ferrari, both

1:10:58

of them laughing their heads off.

1:11:00

Great picture. Wonderful. You know you

1:11:02

won't find many photos of the

1:11:05

old man laughing in a public

1:11:07

setting, not good for the image.

1:11:09

But that's the effect Jill had

1:11:11

on him. Yeah. And I'd like

1:11:14

to finish off by reading the

1:11:16

words of Nikki Louder, spoken on

1:11:18

the morning of the Belgian Grand

1:11:20

Prix in 1982, the day after

1:11:22

Jill was killed in the final

1:11:25

qualifying session. Quote from Nikki. Giell

1:11:27

was the perfect racing driver, I

1:11:29

think. He had the best talent

1:11:31

of all of us. In any

1:11:33

car, he was quick. He didn't

1:11:36

drive for points, but to win

1:11:38

races. I liked him even more

1:11:40

than I admired him. He was

1:11:42

the best and the fastest racing

1:11:44

driver in the world." That's a

1:11:47

great quote. And if you think

1:11:49

of the people whom we have

1:11:51

quoted singing Villeneuve's praises over the

1:11:53

past hour, it's a remarkable. Yes,

1:11:55

it is. It is. Yeah. And

1:11:58

I don't think we'd find anybody

1:12:00

to contradict them either. No, indeed.

1:12:02

I think that feels like a

1:12:04

great place to say, and colosily

1:12:06

that's history. We've loved, we really

1:12:09

have, loved looking back at some

1:12:11

highlights of Jilville Nerv's career. And

1:12:13

if he was a driver who

1:12:15

was perhaps fairly unfamiliar to you

1:12:17

before you heard this podcast, well,

1:12:20

we hope we've done a decent

1:12:22

job of conveying what this extraordinary

1:12:24

driver meant, and means still, to

1:12:26

Formula One. And of course, if

1:12:28

you were already a Jill Vilna

1:12:31

fan, well, we hope you've enjoyed

1:12:33

hearing Richard and me, wax lyrical

1:12:35

about him for an hour or

1:12:37

so. And if you'd like to

1:12:39

share your thoughts about Jill, or

1:12:42

any of the other subjects we've

1:12:44

touched on in this series, you

1:12:46

can get in touch via podcasts

1:12:48

at the hyphen race.com or via

1:12:50

social media. I'm at R. Williams,

1:12:53

1947, 1947, and Matt is at

1:12:55

the Bish F1. And remember if

1:12:57

you want to enjoy ad-free listening

1:12:59

or treat yourself to some supremely

1:13:01

stylish, colossely merch, there are links

1:13:04

to both in the episode description.

1:13:06

Yes, there are. And I think

1:13:08

that'll do for this week, won't

1:13:10

it? So, until next time, with

1:13:12

thanks, very great thanks to our

1:13:15

ace producer Johnny Reynolds, it's goodbye

1:13:17

from me. And it's goodbye from

1:13:19

him. The

1:13:24

athletic.