0:13

Hi and welcome to And introducing

0:15

a podcast about words, about

0:17

music. I'm Chris Wade. And

0:19

I'm Molly O'Brien. And introducing,

0:21

on the mic, and on

0:23

the big and small screen,

0:25

one of the certifiably biggest

0:27

stars of his generation, it's

0:29

the Willenium and we're all living

0:32

in it. It's Will Smith. It's

0:34

still the willennium. Yes, I

0:36

mean he declared a thousand years

0:38

of dominance at the dawn of

0:41

the 21st century. So I guess

0:43

we'll have to be dealing with

0:45

the fallout of that until the

0:48

year 3,000. But here today on

0:50

the pod to discuss the career

0:52

musical and otherwise of Will Smith

0:55

is one of both Molly and

0:57

I's favorite music YouTubeers. No, straight

0:59

that. Our favorite music YouTube.

1:01

It is. Todd in the shadows.

1:04

Todd, welcome to the show. Oh, it's

1:06

great to be here and

1:08

take that punk rock NBA.

1:10

Frank above you again. It's

1:12

part of my personal moral

1:14

compass that I never clicked

1:16

a single video recommended by the

1:18

punk rock NBA solely on the name.

1:21

I was like, I can't abide this.

1:23

This does not work for me. And

1:25

yes, of course, the show is mainly

1:27

about settling scores based on trafficking content.

1:30

So, you know, yeah, you gotta do

1:32

it. So Todd, Molly asked you to

1:34

do the show a bit ago. We were

1:36

thrilled to have you on. She put

1:38

the concept to you. You came back to

1:40

us with Will Smith, who is frankly

1:43

not somebody. I didn't even think

1:45

of Will Smith for this. We've

1:47

done 127 episodes of this show.

1:49

We've gone the gamut of all

1:52

sorts of different musical musical artists.

1:54

One of the most famous people

1:56

in the world, someone that never

1:58

even crossed any of our brainstorming list.

2:01

The winner of the first hip-hop Grammy

2:03

ever and we did I just like

2:05

he was not even on the radar.

2:08

Yes. So this was a great out-of-pocket

2:10

pick. What made you suggest? Will Smith.

2:12

Well I did an episode on him.

2:15

I have a show called Train Records

2:17

where I review career-ending albums and I

2:19

reviewed Will Smith's final album and I

2:21

got the idea to do it immediately

2:24

after the slap. And I was like,

2:26

I heard weird things about that final

2:28

album. This could be timely and the

2:31

album was so weird. The album was

2:33

so strange. So I was like, oh,

2:35

well, I guess we're doing this. So

2:38

I was like, I guess I should

2:40

do research. So I, he was promoting

2:42

that book around the same time, just

2:45

like, came out like a couple months

2:47

before this. So I read that and

2:49

I was like. My God, Smith is

2:52

the strangest man I have ever heard

2:54

of. Like he is so, like he

2:56

was in, you know, my, when I

2:59

was 13, he was the coolest human

3:01

being I could imagine. I could not

3:03

imagine a single, more awesome person, more,

3:06

a person you would more want to

3:08

be like than Will Smith. This had

3:10

not aged well by the time I

3:13

turned 15, but... The one two combination

3:15

of Independence Day and Men in Black

3:17

around the time, if you are a

3:20

boy around our ages, like it's hard

3:22

to describe how seismic those films were

3:24

and how cool he came off in

3:27

both of them. Like that single cultural

3:29

moment is such like a seismic indelible.

3:31

And then also if you're maybe a

3:34

little older, I was probably a little

3:36

younger for this like the bad boys

3:38

movies around those times as well. Like

3:41

just that run, one of the stats

3:43

I saw looking up when I was

3:45

doing some background for this, the all-time

3:48

record for the most consecutive $100 million.

3:50

or grossing movies in a row. Like

3:52

his celebrity is hard to beat in

3:55

the. entire history of celebrity so and

3:57

doesn't he doesn't he know it yes

3:59

exactly so yeah he will tell you

4:02

like getting that dose of Will Smith

4:04

as like a fixture of your personality

4:06

I feel like especially if you were

4:09

somebody who is inclined to enjoy you

4:11

know wise cracking sci-fi and action in

4:13

that era it's it's hard to convey

4:16

how big that was yeah it was

4:18

a world-changing for me I was you

4:20

know old enough to see men in

4:23

black in theaters several times So that

4:25

was like a game changer for me.

4:27

It was like, you said it wasn't

4:30

even on your radar. Well, that's because

4:32

you're a music podcast. And this is,

4:34

you know, Will Smith is far more

4:37

famous now as an actor than he

4:39

ever was as a musician. And he

4:41

was very famous as a musician. Did

4:43

you know he released a new song

4:46

yesterday? Yeah, we heard he released some

4:48

kind of like duet or something like

4:50

it had a feature from someone that

4:53

I've never heard of. And I listened

4:55

to it and he swears on it,

4:57

which I was, you know, I was

5:00

really clutching my pearls because famously Will

5:02

Smith doesn't have to curse in his

5:04

raps to sell records. So yeah, no,

5:07

I guess he announced an album that,

5:09

you know, when, do you know when?

5:11

March, from when we decided to do

5:14

this subject, now it's become suddenly timely

5:16

because the first full Will Smith album

5:18

in 20 years, I is presumed since

5:21

the train record. is coming out in

5:23

March. Yeah. His last album came out

5:25

in 2005. Yeah. So that's literally 20

5:28

years. He has done like a couple

5:30

like one-offs here and there. Like he

5:32

had a dance song I think in

5:35

the 2010s that you know just an

5:37

EDM song that didn't really go anywhere.

5:39

And he did a guest verse for

5:42

Joyner Lucas. Yes. A couple years ago.

5:44

That tracks weirdly. Oh man. Well did

5:46

you have any relationship with... Will Smith's

5:49

music Chris I know obviously if you

5:51

if you like men and black you

5:53

will end up liking the men in

5:56

black theme song yeah I mean I

5:58

really liked I mean I get I

6:00

was in like middle school so I

6:03

like the stuff of his you liked

6:05

music yeah that was on the radio

6:07

I liked the men and black theme

6:10

song I'll probably get into a litter

6:12

but I really like the Wild Wild

6:14

West song but uh I kind of

6:17

even as a somewhat lame music like

6:19

her like her Knew that there was

6:21

a lameness to his music even while

6:24

it was out and even while it

6:26

was undeniably catchy and even while I

6:28

didn't really have anything against him. It

6:31

just was never worth pursuing for me.

6:33

It's not like you were listening to

6:35

like public enemy or whatever instead. Yeah,

6:38

I mean, look, even at the time

6:40

it was kind of overtly lame, but

6:42

undeniable, you know, I was not allowed

6:45

to listen to pop music. Oh, wow.

6:47

Yeah, I was straight up not allowed,

6:49

my parents would only let me listen

6:52

to what they listen to, which is

6:54

country music. So, like, I was starting

6:56

to get old enough that I was

6:58

starting to be aware of songs that

7:01

I wasn't supposed to be listening to,

7:03

but like, everything was the same level

7:05

of forbidden. So, like, the goo dolls

7:08

in the Back Street Boys and Will

7:10

Smith may as well have been, you

7:12

know, snoop dog in Marilyn Manson for

7:15

me. Wow. So, by the time I

7:17

was old enough to actually buy CDs

7:19

to actually buy CDs to actually buy

7:22

CDs, buy CDs, buy CDs, Wild Wild

7:24

West had already come out and I

7:26

was like, I don't think I'm going

7:29

to be spending money on Big Willy

7:31

Style or Will, what was the same,

7:33

Willenium. I was like, so I never

7:36

actually bought any of his records, but

7:38

like, I can wrap, getting jiggy with

7:40

it in my sleep, like from memory,

7:43

and that's always fun. I did it

7:45

when I went to the karaoke bar,

7:47

after the slap, I did it like

7:50

several times in a row. I

7:53

was thinking it was a crowd

7:55

pleaser. I was thinking listening back

7:57

to this that any of the

7:59

big Will Smith songs would be

8:02

a really funny pull to bring

8:04

out in the right situation for

8:06

a good karaoke night. Yeah, well

8:08

I mean like a the right

8:10

situation for me is every time

8:12

I'm at karaoke. I can do

8:14

Miami, I can do, do Met

8:16

in Black, I think those are

8:19

the three in my repertoire. That's

8:21

solid, that's very solid. I just

8:23

ran through the first half of

8:25

Wild Wild West before I got

8:27

tripped up because that's the one

8:29

that I know back and forward.

8:31

I was listening to Big Willie

8:33

Style this morning in the car

8:35

and I like, you know, my

8:38

eyes rolled back into my head

8:40

and I could do getting jiggy

8:42

with it, no problem after all

8:44

these years. At this point I

8:46

assume it's preventing me from learning

8:48

something better or more interesting or

8:50

having a job skill or something.

8:52

I remember my friend had the

8:54

CD, had Big Willy Style, and

8:57

I remember like, listen, like we

8:59

would like listen to it, like

9:01

we would just sit, like that

9:03

was the activity, we would just

9:05

like sit down and play it.

9:07

And I remember being stunned by

9:09

the idea of like skits between

9:11

songs, like I was like, what

9:13

is this comedic stuff? And then

9:16

I very particularly, because he uses

9:18

this phrase a few times. in

9:20

the album, I was like, what

9:22

does yes, yes, y'all mean? What

9:24

does he, like, what does he

9:26

mean when he says that? He

9:28

does it all the time. And

9:30

like, you know, I think I

9:33

was like, what, seven or eight?

9:35

And I was just like, yes,

9:37

yes, yes, y'all. Yes, like, I,

9:39

it had this weird, like, I

9:41

had no association for, you know,

9:43

I'm, I'm, for those who've. Those

9:45

are listening to the podcast right

9:47

now. I'm white and I'm from

9:49

Vermont. So there wasn't a lot

9:52

of yes, yes, yawling happening in

9:54

Vermont. Not a lot of yes,

9:56

yes, yaw culture. Yes, yaw culture.

9:58

But anyway, this is all to

10:00

say. It was definitely music, music

10:02

of my childhood. By the time

10:04

he gave up on making good

10:06

music, I had aged out of

10:08

listening to it. But coming back

10:11

to it was kind of a

10:13

trip. of the biographical sketch of

10:15

Willard. Willard. That is the other

10:17

big thing that I gathered from

10:19

my preliminary research. Willard. Willard Carol

10:21

Smith the second. He's a junior.

10:23

All right, let's do it. So

10:25

the most important thing you need

10:28

to know about the beginning of

10:30

the book is that Will Smith

10:32

has a complicated relationship with his

10:34

father. Yes. What is the name

10:36

of the book? The name of

10:38

the book is Will. It's just

10:40

will. But hey, it's like a,

10:42

it's a double entente, you know,

10:44

it's not just his name, he

10:47

has the will to succeed. Yes.

10:49

Yeah. So his dad, he's got

10:51

this, his father looms large in

10:53

his childhood and life. The book

10:55

opens with him and his brother,

10:57

a scene of him and his

10:59

brother getting a sign, building a

11:01

new wall in his father's shop.

11:03

which takes a year for them

11:06

to build. It's something that like

11:08

if you hired a crew for

11:10

it, it would take like a

11:12

day. But because his father made

11:14

his two young sons who don't,

11:16

aren't trained in construction, it took

11:18

a year. And so that like

11:20

this was like what they did

11:23

after school. And when they complain

11:25

about it, Will's dad says, stop

11:27

thinking about the damn wall. There

11:29

is no wall. There is no

11:31

wall. And then Will says, for

11:33

my entire career, I have been

11:35

absolutely relentless, and the secret to

11:37

my success is as boring as

11:39

it is unsurprising. You show up

11:42

and you lay another brick. Pissed

11:44

off? Lay another brick. Bad opening

11:46

weekend? Lay another brick. Album sales

11:48

dropping? Get up and lay another

11:50

brick. Marriage failing? Lay another brick.

11:52

So this is Will mindset. He's

11:54

a hard worker and he's a...

11:56

He's driven and it's because of

11:58

his dad. Molly, as my wife,

12:01

how do you feel about lay

12:03

another brick as a relationship crisis

12:05

resolution strategy? It depends on what

12:07

state you would find me in.

12:09

Yes. I don't know. We'd have

12:11

to ask Jada who maybe she's

12:13

said some things about this. She

12:15

said anything about it at the

12:18

red table. possible. So let's run

12:20

it back. He's born famously in

12:22

Philadelphia in the middle class neighborhood

12:24

of Winfield. His dad is an

12:26

Air Force vet and a refrigeration

12:28

engineer. He's in the the fringing

12:30

business. Will is terrified of him.

12:32

He has an alcohol problem and

12:34

a terrible temper and he ends

12:37

up being like physically and emotionally

12:39

abusive. And this whole situation makes

12:41

Will very sensitive. He says, I

12:43

could easily recognize, comprehend, and emulate

12:45

complex emotions long before I knew

12:47

that people would pay me for

12:49

it. And he basically starts developing

12:51

his entertainment skills as a way

12:53

to cope with his unstable childhood

12:56

and his parents' moods. I feel

12:58

like that is something that you

13:00

could kind of see from a

13:02

mile away in his whole style

13:04

and presentation. Uh-huh. It was a

13:06

surprise to me. I don't know,

13:08

like, I started reading this right

13:10

after, you know, Will Smith's image,

13:13

you know, shattered. So it was

13:15

like, you know, I remember him

13:17

saying like he was on good

13:19

terms with his dad, because I

13:21

remember him, you know, there was

13:23

like rumors that the famous of...

13:25

How come he don't want me,

13:27

man, from Fresh Prince was based

13:29

on his real life and he

13:32

had to like clear up. He's

13:34

like, no, no, my dad's right

13:36

there. He's at my every career.

13:38

Like, so I remember things like,

13:40

oh, it's just, you know, seems

13:42

like a, you know, a happy

13:44

childhood that he talked about and

13:46

was like, oh, it's just, you

13:48

know, seems like a, you know,

13:51

a happy childhood that he credits

13:53

for a lot, including, you know,

13:55

you know, like a great person.

13:57

No, he does not. It's interesting,

13:59

like, he says that, like, his

14:01

dad was kind of an unruly

14:03

kid, and then he joined the

14:05

Air Force when he was, like,

14:08

16 or something, and then he

14:10

loved it. So he's like, he's

14:12

this militaristic guy. and then he

14:14

instills that, you know, he basically

14:16

says like every situation is life

14:18

or death, which I don't think

14:20

is a great way of like

14:22

growing up because that's not true.

14:24

Yeah, but then at the same

14:27

time, Wilsmith is like, I, the

14:29

reason I work hard and I

14:31

succeeded was because I got that

14:33

from my father, so. Yeah, I

14:35

guess I'm just inclined to see

14:37

any mega-celeb with a hypercarismatic. jester

14:39

personality as being like, I feel

14:41

like there's maybe something going on

14:43

in the childhood. I would say

14:46

that what I learned from reading

14:48

this book is that all celebrities

14:50

aren't saying. Yes. Like for the

14:52

exact reason, like no one made

14:54

it as far as they did

14:56

without having some kind of horrible

14:58

baggage. Yes. Yep. See I grew

15:00

up happy so that's why I've

15:03

never accomplished anything. So that's my

15:05

that's that's my excuse as well

15:07

I'm like I had a good

15:09

childhood so I'm not I'm not

15:11

going to make any interesting art.

15:13

You send to the level of

15:15

podcast or a youtuber. Yeah. Healthy

15:17

ambition. That's that's that's the ceiling.

15:19

That's the ceiling. white Catholic school

15:22

and he's like the only black

15:24

kid there. He describes himself as

15:26

like a big talker, a compulsive

15:28

liar, and he's able to cultivate

15:30

an almost delusional level of confidence.

15:32

So he's like, yeah, you said

15:34

jester, right? Like he's definitely like,

15:36

he's building this up, which, you

15:38

know, obviously ends up being part

15:41

of his appeal in his early.

15:43

years is like he is he

15:45

is the man ill way the

15:47

and may on the answer or

15:49

play on the answer or play

15:51

see this is why I'm like

15:53

his music was for kids because

15:55

this was around the time when

15:58

I did think that pig Latin

16:00

was like funny yes yeah I

16:02

don't know And so like his

16:04

his parents aren't really musical, but

16:06

they do encourage like he takes

16:08

piano lessons and his Grandmother Gigi

16:10

takes him to church And he

16:12

says the concepts of love and

16:14

performance became fused in my mind

16:17

Love became something earned by saying

16:19

and doing the right things. In

16:21

my mind, great performances got you

16:23

love, bad performances left you abandoned

16:25

and alone. See, that's, it feels

16:27

very pathological, right? I mean, yeah.

16:29

Also, around this time, like he's

16:31

like a young teen, his cousin

16:33

Paul comes to live in his

16:36

house because he's having problems at

16:38

home and he's getting into trouble

16:40

and Paul introduces Will Smith to

16:42

hip hop hop. this new thing,

16:44

like what this would have been

16:46

like the 1980 or 1983 or

16:48

something like that. Yeah, yeah, early,

16:50

early, early, early, early. Yeah, which,

16:53

you know, this is the time

16:55

when in order to like tell

16:57

people about music, you need to

16:59

like hand someone a fix tape

17:01

that was like recorded off of

17:03

someone else's boombox at a party

17:05

in New York. where hip-hop was

17:07

invented. One thing I want to

17:09

roll back on really quick, you

17:12

said like he talks about having

17:14

a big personality, he admits straight

17:16

up that he's a giant bullshitter,

17:18

which kind of colors my entire

17:20

like reading, like he warns you,

17:22

like he warns you, he was

17:24

like, yeah, I will tell stories

17:26

and then the person I'm telling

17:28

you will turn to my wife

17:31

and say, okay, but what really

17:33

happened? So that has been like

17:35

the kind of. post the M

17:37

Knight Shammelon movie he did that

17:39

was like kind of a Scientology

17:41

tinged. Which was that? After Earth?

17:43

After Earth. He mentions after Earth

17:45

in this. That there's kind of

17:47

an understanding of how much of

17:50

the public persona of Wilsmith is

17:52

a facade and that it is

17:54

masking something deeper, darker and more

17:56

calculating. Uh, whereas before he was

17:58

kind of accepted. as is a

18:00

you know that this guy just

18:02

like a hyper charismatic cool guy.

18:04

Mm-hmm. I feel like that's kind

18:07

of like Taylor Swift path in

18:09

a way that you know it

18:11

was like wow she's so great

18:13

now it's like Oh, she's she's

18:15

like this evil mastermind. Yeah, oh

18:17

shucks. I'm just a country girl

18:19

who likes to write songs. I'm

18:21

just a country girl from Pennsylvania.

18:23

I am the Machiavellian mastermind behind

18:26

the entire music industry. Yeah. Yeah.

18:28

There's very real similarities. Like slowly

18:30

you understood that both these people

18:32

are, you know, wound tighter than

18:34

a clock. They're about to explode

18:36

at any second. With a facade

18:38

that demands approachability in every manness.

18:40

And some wholesomeness. Yeah, in a

18:42

sense, even family friendly. Yes. Okay,

18:45

so Will loves hip-hop. He like

18:47

gets into it right away. He

18:49

gives a little quick history of

18:51

the art form. He's really into...

18:53

Grandmaster, I didn't, I haven't heard

18:55

of these people Grandmaster Kaz and

18:57

the Cold Crush Brothers. And I

18:59

guess one of his earlier like

19:02

kind of hit songs was basically

19:04

just like a straight up rip

19:06

off of Grandmaster Kaz. What I

19:08

want to say is that I

19:10

think more wrappers need to use

19:12

Grandmaster as a prefix for their

19:14

names. We've really fallen off and

19:16

you know, there's too many lills

19:18

and there's not enough Grandmasters. Grandmasters.

19:21

Yeah, we need to bring that

19:23

back. Like, he's got the gift

19:25

gap. That's his. He specializes right

19:27

away. It was what we were.

19:29

He was embracing the four pillars

19:31

of hip-up. Yeah. He's a lifestyle.

19:33

He doesn't say that he's ever

19:35

interested in breakdancing or graffiti or

19:37

even DJing. He's got the gift

19:40

gap. That's his. He specializes right

19:42

away. It's a fascinating thing that

19:44

like I didn't realize. Like all

19:46

four of those things were actually.

19:48

equally important back in the day.

19:50

Yes. Before it became all about

19:52

the MCs. Yeah. And it was

19:54

that you know. way of life.

19:57

It was like being like a

19:59

skater punk. Like yes you had

20:01

to skate but also it was

20:03

just a thing you did. Yeah.

20:05

And dress and so on. Monk

20:07

like dedication to the full lifestyle.

20:09

Have you ever seen Style Wars

20:11

Todd? I have I have the

20:13

the the breakdance graffiti documentary from

20:16

1983. Yes, that's a fun pull

20:18

the year of off of that.

20:20

Yeah, for some reason I came

20:22

across like a clip of it

20:24

came across my timeline recently and

20:26

I was just thinking about needing

20:28

to rewatch it because we've been

20:30

making so many jokes about the

20:32

four pillars of hip hop lately

20:35

and I've been like you know

20:37

what that movie actually rocks and

20:39

I'm really highlights the other pillars

20:41

of hip hop highly recommend good

20:43

doc So Will immediately starts, he

20:45

starts rapping, his grandmother finds his

20:47

notebook of raps and she tells

20:49

him that he wishes that he

20:52

would make better choices with curse

20:54

words and so he says he

20:56

never cursed again in his rhymes.

20:58

So his his clean rap persona

21:00

came from his disapproving grandmother which

21:02

is obviously very very hard of

21:04

him. Very very tough. I remember

21:06

that was that when he blew

21:08

up in the mid-90s. That's. That

21:11

was like a big part of

21:13

his lore. Grandma wouldn't let me.

21:15

So, there's like one fresh prince

21:17

song where he does call a

21:19

woman a bitch and it'll just

21:21

like knock your teeth out and

21:23

it's like, I just hear. Shocking.

21:25

I do, I also remember that

21:27

where it was like, it didn't

21:30

even really need to be because

21:32

like the songs were so undeniable

21:34

pop hits that you didn't really

21:36

need an angle to sell them,

21:38

but I remember it being. part

21:40

of the Will Smith public persona

21:42

in a way that, I don't

21:44

know, almost seemed to like, again,

21:47

as I said, there was a

21:49

palpable lameness about it. Like, Oma

21:51

only detract from it. But then

21:53

also, he really didn't need to

21:55

swear in his wrap to sell

21:57

records. He was doing great. It's

21:59

like, it also is a brag.

22:01

All right, the thing is you

22:03

can't you can't wrap alone. You

22:06

need you need buddies So he

22:08

finds the best beatboxer in school

22:10

who is called ready rock C.

22:12

That's his beatboxing name They joined

22:14

forces and then he he says

22:16

nobody was as funny as me

22:18

What nobody seemed to ever understand

22:20

was that you can't beat funny.

22:22

So he's like now doing like

22:25

bet like free styles and like

22:27

battle wrapping in his Philadelphia high

22:29

school Which, that is true. You

22:31

see that in Roopaul's drag race

22:33

as well. If you can make

22:35

Roopaul laugh, it doesn't really matter

22:37

what else to do. Funny does

22:39

in fact beat everything. And it's

22:42

funny because we keep coming back

22:44

to it. I mean that is

22:46

the handshake between him and Eminem

22:48

and M. That makes them both

22:50

great. They're both really funny. Will

22:52

Smith and Eminem should get on

22:54

a track together because they are

22:56

at the same level of washed

22:58

in their rap careers. Maybe I'm

23:01

being a little unfair to Eminem.

23:03

I think he's nominated for a

23:05

Grammy for that like, you know,

23:07

his like Joker Follia de moment,

23:09

whatever, what his death of Slim

23:11

Shady, like RIP, whatever that album

23:13

came out last year. Yeah, it's

23:15

a, it is an interesting album.

23:17

I'm not going to tell you

23:20

it's a good album, but it's

23:22

like... This is extremely low bar,

23:24

but it is the best thing

23:26

he's put out in a while.

23:28

Anyway, I think Will and M

23:30

could chop it up together. Look,

23:32

again, handshake between them and maybe

23:34

another reason to bury the hatchet

23:37

and collab. Two guys, even if

23:39

the music is falling off, who

23:41

still have all caps a lot

23:43

going on in your head, that

23:45

I think that maybe would be

23:47

interesting to hear them work out

23:49

together. It would. It would. I

23:51

just was thinking Chris, who do

23:53

we see a festival said that

23:56

you turned to me was like

23:58

he seems like he has a

24:00

lot on his mind and it

24:02

was a childish campino. Yes. Yeah.

24:04

Well, Eminem and Will Smith can

24:06

talk about how they dream about

24:08

murdering their fathers. So... Exactly! They

24:10

can call it like, you know,

24:12

edible, edible sessions or something. Yes,

24:15

edible sessions won. The, the, the,

24:17

the link up. Okay, yes, so

24:19

he's like, he's known around his

24:21

high school at this point for

24:23

being a good rapper. Then he

24:25

meets DJ Jazzie Jeff, aka Jeffrey

24:27

Allen towns. They meet faithfully when

24:29

Jazzie Jeff is DJing at a

24:32

house party that Will is going

24:34

to, his own MC doesn't show

24:36

up on time, so every, you

24:38

know, the pairing is always, there's

24:40

a DJ is playing the music,

24:42

MC who's literally the master of

24:44

ceremonies, wrapping people excited, hyping people

24:46

up. So, and. Will was missing

24:48

his DJ, so the two of

24:51

them faithfully got together joined forces

24:53

and he said, that night with

24:55

Jeff was the first time I

24:57

ever tasted it, the place that

24:59

athletes call the zone. It felt

25:01

like we already existed as a

25:03

group and we just had to

25:05

catch up to ourselves. So that's

25:07

truly, truly magical. Magical Philly Linkup,

25:10

just like Holognauts. Yes. You know

25:12

the Holognaot story, I presume? I

25:14

don't, actually. Do you want to

25:16

explain it? Yeah, one of my

25:18

favorite band origin stories of all

25:20

time. Two white boys in the

25:22

70s in Philadelphia who loved soul

25:24

and R&B music, they were at

25:27

a show and somebody pulled out

25:29

a gun and Holognaotes met each

25:31

other for the first time. cowering

25:33

in the same elevator escaping this

25:35

gun being pulled at a show.

25:37

That's amazing and then they became

25:39

best friends forever. Yeah, everything went

25:41

great. And then most importantly, DJ

25:43

Jazzie Jeff has a work ethic

25:46

that matches Will's. Like Will was

25:48

talking previously about how he was

25:50

with like another group of like

25:52

MCs and a DJ and like

25:54

was, he's like, we need to

25:56

practice every day. And they're like,

25:58

no, we would also like to

26:00

enjoy our lives. And he's like,

26:02

unacceptable. So a lot of the

26:05

rise of DJ Jazz. Jeff and

26:07

the Fresh Prince was just them

26:09

being like, yes, this is the

26:11

only thing I want to work

26:13

on right now, which is relatable.

26:15

And I was also looking up

26:17

some Jazzie Jeff clips ahead of

26:19

this and he's legit. He's legitimately,

26:21

like historically amazing as a DJ.

26:24

As a turntable guy. Yeah. Yeah,

26:28

he will talk Jeff up a

26:30

lot as a very important and

26:32

talented man. That's a that's good.

26:34

That's you know He is not

26:36

just an accessory to the Will

26:38

Smith story. Yes. Yes. That's good

26:40

to hear. Yes. He does not

26:43

discount the DJ Jazzie Jeff input

26:45

on his success. And like we

26:47

were looking up some of the

26:49

credits even for Big Willie style.

26:51

Like Jazzie Jeff's a producer on

26:53

all those albums. I'm sure he

26:55

has done well off of the

26:57

draft of Will Smith fame over

26:59

the years. I would hope he

27:01

would if his finances are managed

27:03

correctly that he is chilling. I

27:05

would like for Jazzie Jeff. to

27:07

be chilling right now. And then

27:09

also importantly, this is honestly, this

27:11

book is so instructive for just

27:14

like, you know, if you think

27:16

about. Wow, how do people succeed?

27:18

Like, how do they actually, like,

27:20

break big? You need two things.

27:22

You need an amazing collaborator who

27:24

can, you know, DJ for you

27:26

or back, kind of back you

27:28

up, or rather, he was really

27:30

backing Jazzie Jeff up in that

27:32

time. And you need a manager

27:34

who knows the law. So we

27:36

need to shout out James Lassiter,

27:38

who is a, like, a final

27:40

year law student, who is, Jazzie

27:42

Jeff's, like, like, friend. And Will

27:44

Smith meets him meets him. he

27:47

like understands like law stuff and

27:49

then the Jazzie Jeff and Will

27:51

were like freaking out because they

27:53

had booked a show and they

27:55

needed to fax something they needed

27:57

to fax a contract in order

27:59

to solid the show and they

28:01

could not find a fax machine.

28:03

Guess who has a fax machine?

28:05

JL. James Lassiter. And that's how

28:07

he becomes his will's manager. So

28:09

you need two things. You need

28:11

the creative collaborator. and you need

28:13

a killer manager and you will

28:15

rise right to the top. And

28:18

sometimes being a killer manager just

28:20

means having a fax machine. Having

28:22

a fax machine in 1985 or

28:24

whenever this is. You know, David

28:26

Lee Roth became the lead singer

28:28

of Van Halen because he's the

28:30

only guy who had his own

28:32

like sound system. So like we

28:34

don't like this guy but like

28:36

he's gonna save us some money

28:38

because he's got the mics and

28:40

everything. So that's how that happened.

28:42

I mean... Equipment management is, you

28:44

know, I feel like the strokes

28:46

get shad on for being like

28:49

Nepo babies or whatever, but like

28:51

one of them who had rich

28:53

parents would just like buy them

28:55

guitar strings if they broke, like

28:57

it was basically just keeping them

28:59

in equipment, like, I don't know,

29:01

you need that stuff. Yes. It's

29:03

not just about the music. It's

29:05

also about the equipment. Okay, so

29:07

they get a big break when

29:09

Jeff competes in the, this is

29:11

insane, the New Music Seminar Battle

29:13

for World Supremacy, which is a

29:15

annual New York-based DJ battle convention.

29:17

That's, what an incredible name. And

29:20

they really pop there, like the

29:22

performance there. They make a splash.

29:24

Philly is in the house, etc.

29:26

etc. etc. And then they start

29:28

getting more notice back in Philly.

29:30

They sign a deal with this

29:32

like, Will never describes what Dana

29:34

Goodman like does to make money,

29:36

but they sign with this like

29:38

record new record label guy and

29:40

who's just known in town for

29:42

like having being fly and having

29:44

a lot of cash. I just

29:46

want to go back because I.

29:48

It took me a while to

29:50

think of the association, but like

29:53

the new music seminar from world

29:55

supremacy sounds like an event that

29:57

like the Nexium cult would have

29:59

put on to like roping numbers.

30:01

Yes. Yeah. Or like a, you

30:03

know, a weird since thing or,

30:05

you know, whatever. Yeah, totally.

30:07

And so they sign a record deal with

30:10

a guy who just started a record

30:12

label, whatever. Will devastatingly has

30:14

to tell his parents that he is not

30:16

going to college. His mom is not happy.

30:19

His mom is the big education lady. She

30:21

was one of the first black women at

30:23

Carnegie Mellon. She wanted him to go to

30:26

school. And so she set it up so

30:28

that he got all these college acceptances. They

30:30

all agreed to defer for a year. And

30:32

she's like, I'm giving you one year to

30:34

succeed in the rap world. and then

30:36

you have to go to school

30:39

and he describes a moment where

30:41

it's like a month before high

30:43

school graduation. He's bagging ice and

30:45

his father's like ice bagging enterprise.

30:47

Oh he's a refrigerator man. Yeah

30:49

he's a refrigerator. He's a cold. I'm

30:52

a cold man. I've cold into it

30:54

across the city. And he hears

30:56

his song, girls ain't nothing but

30:58

trouble on the on local radio

31:00

and he's like. I'm definitely never going

31:02

to college. I'm about to blow up.

31:04

Should we play Girls Ain't Nothing But

31:06

Trouble? Yeah, let's do Little Girls Ain't

31:09

Nothing with Trouble. This

31:47

beat is insane. I know.

31:49

I mean, it's hard to

31:51

parse. It's hard to parse

31:54

in retrospect, you know, because

31:56

all of this era of

31:58

rap sounds so... Quaint you

32:01

know at this point primitive yes

32:03

and so this you can't get

32:05

over this seeming like just a

32:08

pure novelty with the I dream

32:10

of genie sample and everything like

32:12

that but I mean I I

32:15

get it it's fun it's funny

32:17

it's funny I bet it was

32:20

fresh as a time Yeah,

32:33

that, yeah. I mean, Molly, maybe

32:36

you can put a quick clip

32:38

in, but it's like that Hannibal

32:40

Burris thing of what 80s hip-hop

32:42

sounds like. Hip-hop. It sounded on

32:44

the part. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You

32:46

have to start somewhere as a

32:49

whole new genre of music. Also,

32:51

it was a departure from the

32:53

like, you know, early early, early

32:55

hip-hop, which was like basically disco

32:57

and funk, like, like, breaks. So

32:59

like, like, they were doing something

33:02

new. It probably hit. Turn it

33:04

up, turn it up, turn it

33:06

up, turn it up. Yes, yes,

33:08

y'all. Okay, so they book Will,

33:10

excuse me, not Will, the Fresh

33:12

Prince and DJ Jazzie Jeff book

33:15

a tour. They're opening for public

33:17

enemy and two live crew. That's

33:19

an insane bill. Yes. If there's

33:21

anyone out there who's saw that

33:23

live, let us know. Will. Will.

33:25

It's a real. real Archie meets

33:28

the punisher line up there. It

33:30

makes me think about like what

33:32

the people who were like really

33:34

into public enemy thought of this

33:36

what 17 18 year old doing

33:38

well girls see me in the

33:41

street they think about how parents

33:43

just don't understand yeah yeah and

33:45

meanwhile we were following that up

33:47

with you know fight the power

33:49

and me so horny yeah and

33:51

he talks about like yeah it's

33:54

like uh Luther Campbell from Two

33:56

Life crew would just, you know,

33:58

have sex. on stage. Yeah, like

34:00

you would simulate sex sometimes and

34:02

then sometimes it just, you know,

34:04

just be the actual sex on

34:07

stage with a woman. Yeah, he

34:09

said he wanted to get, like

34:11

he was like, I would like

34:13

to get arrested because that's great

34:15

publicity for other shows. True. Which,

34:17

yeah, I suppose. Yeah, and also

34:20

public enemy like the lynch of

34:22

a stuntman KKK guy every night

34:24

like that's amazing. And then yeah,

34:26

Wilson's just like, it's a real

34:28

tangent, but my favorite public enemy

34:30

line from that era is just

34:33

going Elvis was a hero to

34:35

most, but he never meant shit

34:37

to me. He was crazy. Yeah,

34:39

it's funny. is, you know, it's

34:41

so much smaller than it is

34:43

now back in 1989 or whatever.

34:46

So like this is a lineup

34:48

that makes sense because there's only

34:50

like 20 or so wrappers out

34:52

there. Yeah, yeah. Anyway, so that

34:54

goes well for for will and

34:56

crew. Meanwhile in a classic, you

34:59

know, music career move, there are

35:01

struggles between the first person who

35:03

signed you to a deal and

35:05

trying to actually get like a

35:07

real record deal. So Russell Simmons

35:09

comes calling Dana Goodman who they

35:12

had signed with is upset, tries

35:14

to block it, you know. ties

35:16

them up in court, then it's

35:18

discovered that Will signed his record

35:20

deal when he was 17. So

35:22

it's completely moot. So they are

35:25

able to move on successfully to

35:27

to jive records who I of

35:29

course later knew about jive because

35:31

Backstreet Boys were strong. I feel

35:33

like the signed your first deal

35:35

when you were underage is usually

35:38

something that comes to bite the

35:40

artists in the ass, but this

35:42

one of good getting emancipated from

35:44

a bad early deal because you

35:46

were underage. Yeah, that was a

35:48

freebie. Yeah. Will Smith has had

35:51

nothing but luck. Yes. He is,

35:53

yeah, he is like... to touch

35:55

by an angel kind of. Kind

35:57

of also Mr. Wright, right guy,

35:59

right time, right place. Yeah. So

36:01

they record they record an album.

36:04

He's the DJ. I'm the rapper.

36:06

This album eventually goes triple Platinum

36:08

and it wins the first ever

36:10

rap Grammy. They boycott the ceremony

36:12

because the rap award wasn't going

36:14

to be televised. I mean, both

36:17

incredibly legit things. I mean, you

36:19

could say a lot about Will

36:21

Smith. as a musical performer, but

36:23

winning the first rap Grammy, that's

36:25

something that you can never take

36:27

away from him. That is, that's

36:30

a big deal in like legitimizing

36:32

the form. And then also choosing

36:34

to boycott the ceremony, I think,

36:36

good move. Yeah. Yeah, I think

36:38

that was public enemies thing and

36:40

Will was like, Will and Jeff

36:43

were like the first people like,

36:45

yes, I'm on board, let's get

36:47

everyone on board. Yeah. Yeah. All

36:49

right, then things start getting weird,

36:51

you know, as success flows in.

36:53

They're finally making lots of money.

36:56

Will moves into like a super

36:58

nice house in Philly. This is

37:00

where his like strange relationship with

37:02

women starts to come in. He's

37:04

got this girlfriend named Melanie that

37:06

he, I should say to you,

37:09

like Will is like not, I

37:11

don't think he's drinking, doing drugs

37:13

much. And he's like, hella monogamous.

37:15

This is like, he's, this is

37:17

one of like his main things.

37:19

He's like, I want to make

37:22

one woman love me more than

37:24

anything else in life. He wraps

37:26

about it in Big Willie style.

37:28

He is the most monogamous man

37:30

on planet Earth, but maybe not

37:32

in a good way. It might

37:35

be too much. And so Melanie

37:37

cheats on him and he like

37:39

breaks all the windows in her

37:41

aunt's house. Like, there are these,

37:43

you know. Todd, you're saying like,

37:45

you read this after Will had

37:48

the slap happen, or he did

37:50

the slap, didn't happen to him.

37:52

And it is, like, there are

37:54

these hints in his story of

37:56

this, like, you know, kind of

37:58

uncontrollable, like, anger, I guess, that

38:01

gets expressed in these ways. Like,

38:03

to me, that's wild to break

38:05

a bunch of wind. goes in,

38:07

not your girlfriend's house, her aunt's

38:09

house, her, and her mom, her

38:11

aunt, like that's nuts to me.

38:14

Then he's like single and he

38:16

says, sleeping with multiple women was

38:18

so constitutionally disagreeable to the core

38:20

of my being that having an

38:22

orgasm would literally make me gag

38:24

and sometimes even vomit. I remember

38:27

this coming out when this book

38:29

published, like I remember this being

38:31

circulated on Twitter around the time

38:33

that this came out. I don't

38:35

even know what to say about

38:37

that. Like it's, I mean, that

38:40

sounds like something you would read

38:42

in, in like a Victorian novel

38:44

or something. Like a Jane, Jane

38:46

Austin line. Yeah, it's, it's, it's

38:48

odd. I've, we've, Elizabeth, having relations

38:50

with multiple women at the same

38:53

time is so constitutionally unprovable to

38:55

me, but it makes me ill.

38:57

Yes, but also he's insane enough

38:59

that he keeps doing it like

39:01

I'm rich and famous and. 19,

39:03

I have to fuck every woman

39:06

I see, even though I am

39:08

not enjoying it even the littlest

39:10

bit. Again, remember, Will is a

39:12

very unreliable narrator. So, who knows?

39:14

And, like, you know, like, the

39:16

real story could be, like, you

39:19

know, he was, you know, feeling

39:21

himself, but he wasn't really enjoying

39:23

it, kind of unfulfilled by it.

39:25

Was like, no, I vomit it

39:27

after him. It was so repulsed

39:29

to me. But I also think

39:32

it goes like, the life of

39:34

a libertine did not agree. And

39:36

I think like it also goes

39:38

back to that sense at least

39:40

that I get of him constantly

39:42

trying to like construct personas in

39:45

front of him. Speaking of that,

39:47

I think it is very important

39:49

to note that like one one

39:51

of the, he spent several pages

39:53

in this book describing the hero's

39:55

journey and how he's like obsessed

39:58

with the hero's journey. And so

40:00

like, you know, I do. What

40:02

was his denial of the call.

40:04

Denial of the call? Yeah, that's

40:06

a classic part of the hero's

40:08

journey. You got to deny the

40:11

call first. I think he might

40:13

have skipped that maybe that's his

40:15

problem. He skipped the denial of

40:17

the call. I think we're going

40:19

to get to the denial of

40:21

the call, but I'll tell you

40:24

where I think it's coming right

40:26

up here. Okay. All right. So

40:28

that we have like a little

40:30

flop era for Will because he

40:32

like he's just like getting a

40:34

little too crazy with his newfound

40:37

fame and fortune. Like there's a

40:39

failed classic classic music career issue

40:41

deciding that you want to record

40:43

an album in the Bahamas for

40:45

reasons. This has come up multiple

40:47

times over the course of the

40:50

show. It always means that you're

40:52

just going to be dicking around.

40:54

It's yes. It's you have no

40:56

ideas and you want to go

40:58

on vacation and you want to

41:00

spend a lot of record labels.

41:03

You would pretend that you're working.

41:05

Yes. So he does that. That

41:07

being said, if anybody offered for

41:09

me to go on like a

41:11

podcasting retreat to the Bahamas, of

41:13

course I would take it. He

41:16

puts out another album and in

41:18

this corner and it comparatively flops.

41:20

Also he doesn't pay his taxes.

41:22

He just like doesn't pay three

41:24

million dollars to the IRS which

41:26

that's like not good. We're gonna

41:29

stop here. We're going to stop

41:31

here because I need to describe

41:33

this entire scene because I have

41:35

never stopped thinking about this in

41:37

the three years since I read

41:39

this. Okay. All right. So he

41:42

says, he's like, yeah, we went

41:44

to the Bahamas, we weren't really

41:46

working. We were, you know, going

41:48

nuts with, you know, jerk chicken

41:50

and rum punch. And we were

41:52

partying and we were partying. invited

41:55

him all down here. By that

41:57

point I had graduated from up

41:59

to from chicken fingers to jerk

42:01

chicken black beans and rice and

42:03

I guess it must have been

42:05

hot in there so I had

42:08

my shirt off and like his

42:10

dad has to come there and

42:12

like drag his ass home by

42:14

his point by his funny stick

42:16

out of yours. And can I

42:18

say a little something about chicken?

42:21

Like he says he got smashed

42:23

on run punch and chicken fingers

42:25

as you do when you're on

42:27

holiday Yeah, and he mentions chicken

42:29

fingers again later is like part

42:31

of the creative process, you know,

42:34

they'd sit down eat chicken fingers

42:36

and you know brainstorm and stuff

42:38

Yeah, I realize he wasn't actually

42:40

talking about chicken Okay, wait, what

42:42

is it? Oh, oh And I

42:44

didn't realize it says more about

42:47

Will Smith than it does about

42:49

us for the record. He's so

42:51

sneaky. From chicken fingers to jerk

42:53

chicken. Oh, come on. Oh, Jesus

42:55

Christ. Thank you. Thank you for.

42:57

For. But you're able to get

43:00

away with is that like you

43:02

can read this. I mean, that's

43:04

what the no cursing in my

43:06

records deal does is puts up

43:08

a believable smoke screen for him.

43:10

you know, who's only getting as

43:13

edgy as my parents just don't

43:15

understand at this time to be

43:17

like, yeah, I imagine that he's

43:19

just like drinking and chowing down

43:21

and the Bahamas in the 80s,

43:23

early 90s, as a rap superstar.

43:26

Sure, that's plausible. Oh, man. Sorry,

43:28

that's that also just makes me

43:30

think of the Justin Bieber profile

43:32

where he's delivered like 50 chicken

43:34

fingers on a silver tray. Yes.

43:36

Those were actual chicken figures though.

43:39

Yeah. Also let us imagine shirtless

43:41

Will Smith cross faded, coke sweaty,

43:43

squat of height men in the

43:45

Bahamas making, you know. Parents just

43:47

don't understand and making an album

43:49

with no curse words on it.

43:52

Yeah, and then his dad comes

43:54

to literally drag him back to

43:56

Philadelphia That's insane. Okay. Okay. Yeah,

43:58

like this one the one I'm

44:00

ready to lay down the next

44:02

one is gonna be called 10

44:05

p.m. Curfew. Okay. Let's go. No

44:07

like apparently like the the only

44:09

hit off that album was I

44:11

think I can beat Mike Tyson.

44:13

Yes. Yeah, and apparently this is

44:15

like a giant metaphor for his

44:18

life at that point because he's

44:20

like, yeah, like you go in

44:22

the ring with Tyson, you lose.

44:24

Yeah. That's a, you know, there's

44:26

no shame in that. But in

44:28

the, it's a joke song about

44:31

how he doesn't train, he doesn't

44:33

do anything and he, you know,

44:35

just sits on his ass and

44:37

then, you know, Tyson beats his

44:39

teeth in. I was like, that's

44:41

a metaphor for what my life

44:44

was like at the time. Yes.

44:46

Okay, and then there's also this,

44:48

there's an altercation at a Philly

44:50

rap radio station where one of

44:52

Dana Goodman's like guys happens to

44:54

be there as Will is doing

44:57

an interview and Will with Charlie

44:59

Mac his bouncer who very importantly

45:01

is mentioned like. 15 times over

45:03

the course of Big Willie style.

45:05

He loves Charlie Mac his bouncer

45:07

who he describes is basically just

45:10

the biggest guy he he knows

45:12

who's like willing to like go

45:14

on tour with him which that's

45:16

a good job. That's a qualification

45:18

for the bouncer. So what Dana

45:20

Goodman's guy is like yelling at

45:23

the radio station being like you

45:25

need to thank Dana Goodman on

45:27

the mic. You need to thank

45:29

him and then Charlie Mac. bust

45:31

this guy's head open and will

45:33

gets arrested because of a law

45:36

that's basically like Charlie was under

45:38

the influence of will therefore you

45:40

you assaulted him even though you

45:42

didn't actually assault him so he's

45:44

like you know he gets he

45:46

gets booked so that's not great

45:49

And then also like he's been

45:51

hanging out with like kind of

45:53

gangbanging dudes in Philly and then

45:55

he gets a tip off from

45:57

one of his cop friends that

45:59

the FBI is investigating them. So

46:02

he goes to Los Angeles. This

46:04

is this is a part of

46:06

Will Smith's life that I was

46:08

not aware of is that he

46:10

was kind of he was getting

46:12

a little bit hardcore with it.

46:15

I don't know how much of

46:17

that's an exaggeration. So yeah, things

46:19

are getting a little intense. So

46:21

he goes out to LA to

46:23

cool out. He loves LA. He

46:25

loves LA. He seems like he

46:28

likes most cities. You know, he

46:30

obviously, he likes Philly. He likes

46:32

Miami. He likes LA. He likes

46:34

New York too. We all know

46:36

that LA and Philly stay jiggy.

46:38

Yeah. Miami for real bringing heat.

46:41

He really committed to the word

46:43

Jiggy on that album as well.

46:45

Like he really did. He really

46:47

believed in Jiggy, which is cool.

46:49

So he's like kind of socializing

46:51

around LA. He's got this lady

46:54

friend who's like, you should go

46:56

to the Arsenio Hall show and

46:58

like network. He's like, okay. And

47:00

he meets Benny Medina and Benny

47:02

Medina is like, can you act

47:04

and will lies and says yes,

47:07

even though he's never acted before.

47:09

I mean, the answer, he clearly

47:11

wasn't lying. He can't, you know,

47:13

he hadn't been tested at the

47:15

time. And so he ends up

47:17

as, at Quincy Jones's, to me,

47:20

this is the most amazing story

47:22

of the book, or at least

47:24

the way Will tells it, is

47:26

that he goes to Quincy Jones's

47:28

birthday party, where Brendan Tartakoff, the

47:30

head of NBC, is there. Quincy

47:33

is aware that there is like

47:35

some kind of failed pilot, I

47:37

think Morris Day, I think was

47:39

supposed to be in it, and

47:41

he's like, oh, you should audition

47:43

for Brandon right now. at this

47:46

party and will is like I

47:48

need a week like I didn't

47:50

like give me some time to

47:52

prepare I'll call an acting coach

47:54

and he's like no no no

47:56

we're doing this like right now

47:59

there's like this pilot and you

48:01

need to just audition and he

48:03

said that there was like a

48:05

20 minute audition at Quincy Jones's

48:07

birthday in front of a bunch

48:09

of people and then not only

48:12

did he make a good enough

48:14

impression that they're like yet we'll

48:16

say yes to making a sitcom

48:18

based on you as a personality

48:20

Quincy Jones called a lawyer and

48:22

got a deal memo made up

48:25

two hours later which is like

48:27

that is some crazy that's some

48:29

crazy shit if that is true

48:31

because that is true because that

48:33

is That's not how the television

48:35

business works. No, believe me. A

48:38

lawyer, a contract to get literally

48:40

anything done takes months. He also

48:42

says that the lawyer was apparently

48:44

at his, uh, the birth of

48:46

his second child and like left

48:48

the birth of the second child

48:51

to get the deal memo hammered

48:53

out, which isn't saying. You know,

48:55

people used to really care about

48:57

quality entertainment in this country. I

48:59

mean, it's. There are witnesses, in

49:01

theory, there are witnesses, right? Because

49:04

it's Quincy Jones is the only

49:06

reason that it makes it possible

49:08

to me. It's believable that Quincy

49:10

Jones would do something like that.

49:12

That was a young Rashida present

49:14

for this event. Might have been

49:17

past your bedtime. Probably. We should

49:19

do a Quincy Jones episode, honestly.

49:21

Yes, we should. He wrote, didn't

49:23

he write a memoir? Or had

49:25

a biopial. There must be something

49:27

long form written about him. Did

49:30

you ever watch Fresh Prince Prince?

49:32

Yeah, that's a good show. This

49:34

was something that was not in

49:36

my rotation. I had no fresh

49:38

prince engagement. I didn't watch it

49:40

when it was like live on

49:43

air, but I watched it in

49:45

syndication quite quite a bit. Yeah,

49:47

when I say religiously, I don't

49:49

mean I watched it in prime

49:51

time. I watched it, you know,

49:53

every day after school. Right, right.

49:56

But in syndication. Yeah. Right. It

49:58

came on before the Simpsons and

50:00

after Save by the Bell. So,

50:02

oh man. We used to be

50:04

a proper country. Any thoughts on

50:06

just the nature of Fresh Prince

50:09

of Bel Air as a show?

50:11

It was much more political than

50:13

you remember. Okay. I remember hearing

50:15

things like all the execs wanted

50:17

was, you know, black Beverly Hillbillies.

50:19

Sure. The streets and the rich.

50:22

And, you know, they weren't prepared

50:24

for him to put up a

50:26

big Malcolm X poster on his

50:28

first day in Bel Air. And

50:30

they were like, oh. Yeah, and

50:32

there's like a lot of stuff

50:35

about how. Uncle Phil was like

50:37

a 60s radical back in the

50:39

day and stuff like that. Wow,

50:41

I don't I don't remember that

50:43

but that's amazing. Yeah, the thing

50:45

that I always found most interesting

50:48

whenever I would watch like the

50:50

few amount of reruns I had

50:52

is the like kind of the

50:54

intergenerational class anxiety between Will and

50:56

Carlton I thought was a very

50:58

interesting dynamic for a show of

51:01

that era. Yeah. I mean I

51:03

was like stories about like big

51:05

powerful rich self-made men and they're

51:07

worthless children. Yes. Also, I mean,

51:09

I don't think I'm sharing a

51:11

shocking opinion. Will Smith is just

51:14

very charismatic on that show. And

51:16

that show is also very like,

51:18

I was watching some like just

51:20

clips to, you know, what you

51:22

kind of re-familiarize myself with his

51:24

vibe. It's just, it's almost like

51:27

a, you know, old school sitcom

51:29

sitcom shooting is basically just like

51:31

a play. you know and it

51:33

sounds like the problem you know

51:35

he said he really enjoyed the

51:37

problem he says making a sitcom

51:40

is the best job in the

51:42

world which I can I can

51:44

believe also I always appreciated any

51:46

time I tuned in how utterly

51:48

outrageous every single Will Smith outfit

51:50

was yes he always had that

51:53

shit on yes 100 for real

51:55

for for real all right so

51:57

then I feel like him booking

51:59

Fresh Prince is kind of the

52:01

dividing point in the book where

52:03

He stops feeling like a rapper

52:06

and he's more of an actor

52:08

and a celebrity who happens to

52:10

rap, even though he continues to

52:12

make music. So, you know, he

52:14

really enjoys being on the show

52:16

and then he starts to think

52:19

more ambitiously, James Lassiter is like,

52:21

You're kind of doing a bunch

52:23

of stuff, like what do you

52:25

really want to do? And he's

52:27

like, I want to be the

52:29

biggest movie star in the world.

52:32

And then like, all right, well,

52:34

let's make that happen. Yeah, okay.

52:36

It's an amazing cult shot. Let's

52:38

get on it. I mean, you're

52:40

always talking about, you know, having

52:42

a North star to kind of

52:45

base your... being that I'm going

52:47

to be on the star in

52:49

outer space. But you know, I

52:51

think also when you're a guy

52:53

like Will, and I wonder if

52:55

this comes across in the book,

52:58

how much he's like admits that

53:00

he knows he just has it

53:02

at all times, because you know,

53:04

he must have known to a

53:06

certain extent, especially after like the

53:08

first song or two hit. Like,

53:11

okay. Whether he, because I feel

53:13

like it's all, some of it

53:15

feels kind of implicit of being

53:17

like, you know me, Will Smith,

53:19

the good-looking, charming, quick-witted, like, pull

53:21

on your heartstrings, yet strong, and

53:24

powerful guy. But I don't know,

53:26

what do you think? Yeah, you

53:28

can't be Will Smith, and not

53:30

be aware of who you are.

53:32

Yeah, I feel like, what really

53:34

fascinates me is the part where

53:37

he gets into acting, like, It

53:39

turns out one I'm better at

53:41

it and two I like it

53:43

more like you know I I

53:45

enjoyed making music but like it

53:47

doesn't come naturally to me yeah

53:50

that was like I've always felt

53:52

a little tiny bit behind yeah

53:54

as far as a rapper goes

53:56

and like if you actually go

53:58

listen to like the fresh prince

54:00

album you can see him was

54:03

like here's what's hot right now

54:05

and that's what I'm gonna do

54:07

yes like That's effects is big

54:09

so I'm gonna do all that

54:11

diggy-y-giggy stuff that's popular in 93

54:13

or I'm gonna he talks about

54:16

like I was really in Iraq

54:18

him so I wrote summertime basically

54:20

just as a rack him impression.

54:22

and think of the summers of

54:24

the past, adjust the base and

54:26

let the alpine last, pop in

54:29

my CD and let me run

54:31

around and put your car on

54:33

cruise and lay back because it's

54:35

summertime. Yes. It's like, yeah, this

54:37

is why, you know, my music

54:39

career fell to the side. I

54:42

love acting. I love acting and

54:44

I'm not the greatest rapper. Yeah.

54:46

There's weird spots of humility. That

54:48

was what was so interesting to

54:50

me listening to Big Willy style.

54:53

His like, I guess you would

54:55

call like a comeback album. His

54:57

imperial era. Yeah. Yeah. Today is

54:59

just how much of a kind

55:01

of chip on his shoulder he

55:03

has about having at that point

55:06

the because that's 96 I believe

55:08

or 97. 97. Yeah. Having a

55:10

chip on his shoulder about having

55:12

then dominated a like having undeniable.

55:14

Superstar acting success and it very

55:16

much feeling like a record of

55:19

somebody coming back to wrapping then

55:21

needing to self consciously prove themselves

55:23

again as a Not even like

55:25

a super star, but a credible

55:27

musician on top of their acting

55:29

career, you know, even though he

55:32

made his name first as a

55:34

rapper. Yeah, exactly. Mm-hmm. Even though

55:36

it's a very light-hearted frivolous fun

55:38

bouncy record like the through line

55:40

of the themes of that record

55:42

are like I need to retroactively

55:45

justify my music career that started

55:47

me now that I have become

55:49

a bigger acting star by proving

55:51

to you that I did in

55:53

fact have the chops all along

55:55

to be a great musician as

55:58

well as the biggest actor by

56:00

generation. I will not push back

56:02

on. that but I think to

56:04

defend to defend Will Smith and

56:06

his tone it is impressive that

56:08

he was part of a relatively

56:11

early ish. Well you know what

56:13

he wasn't super early to hip-hop

56:15

but like he was in the

56:17

second second way and then held

56:19

on for essentially a decade in

56:21

a young medium that is all

56:24

about whatever is like the newest

56:26

hottest thing and whatever happened like

56:28

two years ago is is lame

56:30

and we're way more intense and

56:32

extreme and and different now yeah

56:34

and so like even the fact

56:37

that he sold that many records

56:39

that far into the game I

56:41

think is impressive and I do

56:43

but he definitely wants you to

56:45

to know that it is impressive

56:47

to still be in the mix.

56:50

What do you what do you

56:52

think of the tone of big

56:54

willy style? What are the thematic

56:56

depths of big willy style? Ridiculous

56:58

album. It's a lot of it

57:00

feels like just his new superstar

57:03

persona stamped onto an album. It

57:05

feels a lot like image control.

57:07

Mm-hmm. Is it a branding exercise?

57:09

Branding exercise. In a way that

57:11

this fresh prince was not. Yeah,

57:13

that's interesting. I do think the

57:16

fact that so much of it

57:18

is like party, party music is,

57:20

I mean, he talks about this.

57:22

Let me see if I can pull

57:24

up. Yeah. At this point, my notes

57:27

fragment into random bullet points of

57:29

insanity. Yeah, because I feel like, you

57:31

know, in terms narrative, again, we can

57:33

kind of like skip over the

57:35

early movie part because we know it.

57:38

So well, it's you know bad boys

57:40

huge hit and then back to back

57:42

independence day men and black to

57:44

seismic hits He's he's he's he does

57:47

some dramatic roles in between there. He

57:49

is like do you want me to

57:51

read it real quick his his

57:53

round of movies route that he says

57:56

the next 10 years of my professional

57:58

life were an absolute unadulterated unblemished

58:00

route of the entertainment industry? It's true

58:02

and he should say it. Bad Boys

58:05

Independence Day, Men in Black, Enemy of

58:07

the State, Wild Wild West, Ali,

58:09

Men in Black 2, Bad Boys 2,

58:11

I-Robot, things get a little wiggie, Shark

58:14

Tale, Hitch, the pursuit of happiness, I

58:16

am legend, and a Hancock, $8

58:18

billion global box office, and then 30

58:20

million records sold, including Men in Black,

58:23

get and jiggy with it, just

58:25

the two of us, Miami, Miami, and

58:27

Wild Wild. I mean, he deserves to

58:29

be cocky about that. There are some

58:32

stinkers in there, there are some

58:34

things that didn't work at the time

58:36

that deserve to be reclaimed, but it's

58:38

an incredible run of films. Yeah. Yeah,

58:41

that's, he seems unfulfilled at the

58:43

end of it. And yet, and yet.

58:45

We missed the part when he does

58:47

his first dramatic role of six

58:49

degrees of separation and then he says

58:52

he came back a completely different person

58:54

and that's why his marriage his first

58:56

marriage ended yeah because he like

58:59

he couldn't turn the character off like

59:01

like Austin Butler doing the eldest voice

59:03

for like two years after he's Yes,

59:06

he goes on untrained method on

59:08

six degrees of separation. He basically is

59:10

just like, I think this is how

59:12

it's done. Everything I think and

59:14

do and say is going to be

59:17

in my character's mode. And then he

59:19

comes back to Fresh Prince that year

59:21

and he's like, I've literally forgot

59:23

how to tell a joke. And they

59:26

had to start writing toward Carlton's character

59:28

because I was such a mess.

59:30

this woman Sherry Zampeano, he actually met

59:32

Jane Pinkett first, but she was not

59:35

interested in him. She could care less.

59:37

But he's with this woman Sherry,

59:39

has a child with her, and then,

59:41

yeah, he like gets obsessed with Stalkard

59:44

Channing, his co-star and Six Degrees of

59:46

Separation, and like, kind of like,

59:48

sniffs after her a little bit. It

59:50

sounds like a whole mess. But yes,

59:53

he. His early acting career is

59:55

very funny that way. I also want

59:57

to note that when he gets cast

59:59

in bad boys, he trains with the

1:00:02

UCLA track coach because he knows

1:00:04

he's going to have running scenes in

1:00:06

bad boys and he's like I don't

1:00:08

want to look stupid when I run

1:00:11

which to me that is the

1:00:13

Will Smith signature is going above and

1:00:15

beyond to fix real you know a

1:00:17

real problem people do look stupid

1:00:19

when they run in movies that that

1:00:22

is a thing and he did look

1:00:24

great running. When he tracks sound that

1:00:26

alien in the first scene of

1:00:28

men in black, that's some all-time great

1:00:31

on-screen running. Come on. So like that,

1:00:33

it's, I feel like that is the

1:00:35

Will Smith signature is like going

1:00:38

way, way to ham on over-correcting like

1:00:40

a perceived problem, but it does result

1:00:42

in success. It does do well

1:00:44

for you, but at what cost? Yeah.

1:00:47

One last part I did want to

1:00:49

mention, yes. very very insecure about Tupak

1:00:51

this comes up a lot like

1:00:53

not a you know squeaky clean Will

1:00:56

Smith is at all insecure or jealous

1:00:58

about you know his wife's background with

1:01:00

this gangster icon and well guess

1:01:02

what he sure fucking is he is

1:01:05

very very insecure about Tupak this comes

1:01:07

up a lot like not so

1:01:09

specifically about his wife's involvement, but his

1:01:11

like final album that came out in

1:01:14

2005. It's like he is quite jealous

1:01:16

of all the other rappers out

1:01:18

there. Yeah, wait, so intensely. Is there

1:01:20

anyone in particular, I'm sorry, I should

1:01:23

have watched your train records before this

1:01:25

to reconfer, but like, is there

1:01:27

anyone who's particularly bothering him at this

1:01:29

era in his life? Not anyone particular,

1:01:32

but. Let me let me let

1:01:34

me pull up the lyric real quick.

1:01:36

Yeah, I mean, this is also what

1:01:38

I'm I was kind of saying about

1:01:41

like Big Boley style and what

1:01:43

you were also saying is that it

1:01:45

does, when he comes back to music,

1:01:47

it does feel like a self-conscious on

1:01:50

its face, self-conscious attempt to insert

1:01:52

himself into a musical conversation that had

1:01:54

then. already gone way past where he

1:01:56

had gotten off that train you

1:01:58

know yeah and trying to assert like

1:02:01

no no I'm still part of all

1:02:03

of this even if it is in

1:02:05

a very silly way like I

1:02:07

think yeah I like all the lines

1:02:10

in Big Willie style they're like bragging

1:02:12

about his intermediate TV and film

1:02:14

success between those records like I think

1:02:17

my favorite line is him saying something

1:02:19

like you gonna need a 56-inch TV

1:02:21

to watch Cisco and Imbert give

1:02:23

me Two thumbs, ten toes, one knee,

1:02:26

and a couple of elbows up. 50

1:02:28

and Sony to watch this goal of

1:02:30

Eva, because I'm about to get

1:02:32

two thumbs up, ten toes, one knee,

1:02:35

and probably a couple of elbows, because

1:02:37

y'all, I'm the man and the

1:02:39

whole world knows. Come on. All right,

1:02:41

well, in 2005, he's starting to get

1:02:44

really insecure about this. He's got one

1:02:46

line that goes. I always envied

1:02:48

how y'all rock with Dre and the

1:02:50

chronic, the way that Tupac biggie 50

1:02:53

and Jigga got it, a lot like

1:02:55

LL, Chuck D, Slick and Doug

1:02:57

E. It's like, I think y'all love

1:02:59

me, but y'all place other wrappers above

1:03:02

me. Yes, yes, that's a lot

1:03:04

of names. Yes. And like, you can

1:03:06

probably. There are a lot more names

1:03:08

out there that have more respect than

1:03:11

Will Smith. Yeah, that might be

1:03:13

just the beginning. That is, that's pretty

1:03:15

brutal. Yeah. Well, it's funny because, you

1:03:17

know, that's a thing, dude, you left

1:03:20

and became the biggest actor on

1:03:22

earth. Well, honestly, not to bring up

1:03:24

Taylor Swift again, but I also feel

1:03:26

like that's an early example of

1:03:28

this disease that celebrities have now, which

1:03:31

is that you have to both be

1:03:33

critically acclaimed and... commercially. And it's like,

1:03:35

Will Smith, it's fine that like

1:03:37

people like to watch and listen to

1:03:40

you. You're never going to be the

1:03:42

greatest rapper of all time. Like, that's

1:03:44

not, that's not your path in

1:03:46

life. Like, don't, don't be upset that

1:03:49

you're not going to be on the

1:03:51

Rolling Stone list of, do they

1:03:53

ever do that 100 best rappers? It

1:03:56

also would be like a more, that's

1:03:58

what the money is for. Line

1:04:00

to maybe be like, you know, 50

1:04:02

cent ice cube. They tried acting

1:04:04

couldn't do it like I do,

1:04:06

you know Hey, 50 cent did a

1:04:08

great job in Den of Thieves. Was

1:04:11

he in Den of Thieves, too?

1:04:13

He was not he dies in

1:04:15

sports I forgot Okay, 50 cent

1:04:17

was great in Den of Thieves

1:04:20

800 billion dollars in ticket sales

1:04:22

50 get back to me when you

1:04:24

hit 800 billion dollars in ticket sales.

1:04:26

All right so you know as we're kind

1:04:28

of flying through this like he's sort of

1:04:30

at this point in the book I would say

1:04:33

after the success of Big Willie style

1:04:35

he honestly doesn't even really shout

1:04:37

out Willennium that much in his

1:04:39

narrative like he kind of moves

1:04:41

on to to yeah he doesn't

1:04:43

really mention his solo career much at

1:04:45

all like he says like they said

1:04:47

maybe I should do a song for

1:04:50

men and black I was like All

1:04:52

right, I don't know. And one thing

1:04:54

I think is very interesting. He's very

1:04:56

proud of summertime. He talks about

1:04:58

his creative process making that. He

1:05:00

doesn't talk about the creative process

1:05:02

of anything after that. No. It

1:05:05

is long been suspected that.

1:05:07

his solo career was

1:05:09

ghostwritten. Ghost written? That

1:05:11

wouldn't surprise me. Even

1:05:13

just from a, he's too

1:05:15

busy level. I mean, those sound

1:05:17

a lot like song written songs,

1:05:19

you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's

1:05:21

a, there's long been a rumor

1:05:23

that Naz wrote the entirety

1:05:26

of getting jiggy with it. He's

1:05:28

credited as a songwriter on

1:05:30

it. Naus said, like, you

1:05:32

know, I was hanging out

1:05:34

with Will. I, you know,

1:05:36

I added a couple

1:05:38

lines. Naus, his manager,

1:05:41

says, oh, yeah, he

1:05:43

wrote the whole thing.

1:05:45

Hating himself the entire

1:05:48

time. Oh, my God.

1:05:50

Is Naus goes writing

1:05:52

that album the

1:05:54

equivalent of Noah

1:05:57

Baumbach writing? Madigaskar?

1:06:00

too. Yes. That because that needed

1:06:02

to like pay for his divorce

1:06:04

or something. But sometimes you have

1:06:06

you got to pay the bills.

1:06:08

Yes. The bills are not going

1:06:10

to pay themselves. So I know

1:06:12

no judgment of nause. You got

1:06:14

to do it. We got paid.

1:06:16

Honestly, really more toward the end,

1:06:18

like, he starts, Will starts focusing

1:06:20

on the musical desires and achievements

1:06:22

of his family, including, I do

1:06:24

need to shout out because I

1:06:26

do think this is kind of

1:06:28

cool in a funky way, is,

1:06:31

Jeda had sort of like this

1:06:33

like epiphany where she's like, I

1:06:35

need to be like doing more

1:06:37

creative stuff, and are you, Chris,

1:06:39

are you familiar with wicked wisdom?

1:06:41

That's Jeda's metal band, right? Yes,

1:06:43

I am familiar with the fact

1:06:45

that she had like a new

1:06:47

metalish band, right? Yes, and so

1:06:49

she goes, she's friends with Sharon

1:06:51

Osborne, so Wicked Wisdom gets brought

1:06:53

on to Ozfest in I think

1:06:55

the mid-90s. And then this is,

1:06:57

you know, I feel like we

1:06:59

don't have enough time or bandwidth

1:07:02

to get into like the full

1:07:04

Will and Jeda relationship, but like

1:07:06

he's definitely one of the strangest

1:07:08

wife guys I've encountered. in music

1:07:10

memoirdom. He obviously extremely loves this

1:07:12

woman and says, you know, they've

1:07:14

been together in every lifetime blah

1:07:16

blah blah blah. But then he

1:07:18

is also like, he is, he's

1:07:20

in the Will Smith business. There's

1:07:22

an amazing scene where like they're

1:07:24

kind of getting some marital therapy

1:07:26

and they have to, their therapist

1:07:28

makes them list the most important

1:07:30

things to them in life in

1:07:33

order. uh... her kids first and

1:07:35

then will and then herself and

1:07:37

will lists himself does he list

1:07:39

the kids are jada first you

1:07:41

remember i don't i i i

1:07:43

i i think the first three

1:07:45

were both will i don't like

1:07:47

will and will and will will

1:07:49

well and then and then yeah

1:07:51

kids and jada and like that

1:07:53

like breaks breaks jada's heart because

1:07:55

she's just like what what what

1:07:57

the what the fuck like who

1:07:59

the fuck like who the fuck

1:08:01

did i marry yeah like the

1:08:04

i'm sure Sure will has his

1:08:06

own like legitimate beefs in the

1:08:08

marriage that he is too classy

1:08:10

to bring up. Yeah, like because

1:08:12

he admits he has a hero

1:08:14

complex. So he takes it on

1:08:16

the chin this entire thing. He's

1:08:18

like the entire dissolution of my

1:08:20

marriage. That's all me. That's on

1:08:22

me. That's on me. And you

1:08:24

know, he's got a point. He

1:08:26

does seem like an insane bulldozer

1:08:28

of a man who just doesn't

1:08:30

fucking listen. either Jaden or Willow

1:08:32

says, yeah, that's that's kind of

1:08:35

an insane person. Yes. Yeah, again,

1:08:37

on surprising. Like he he buys

1:08:39

in like not a house, like

1:08:41

in a state, a palatial estate.

1:08:43

And he's like, I want this

1:08:45

to be like my Taj Mahal

1:08:47

for Jeda. And Jeda's like, this

1:08:49

is, this place is way too

1:08:51

big. Like I don't want to

1:08:53

manage the 50 people that it

1:08:55

takes to up. Like this has,

1:08:57

there's horse stables here. Like, I

1:08:59

want to do, like just perfect.

1:09:01

He describes this like birthday party

1:09:03

that he throws her that he

1:09:06

like, does he get like a

1:09:08

hologram of her grand model? Like,

1:09:10

he just goes, there is no,

1:09:12

like, like, like, all balls to

1:09:14

the walls to the walls to

1:09:16

the walls to the walls or

1:09:18

nothing. And then he, to his

1:09:20

credit, he does say, like, that

1:09:22

doesn't always work for people and

1:09:24

sometimes they, you know, leave me

1:09:26

over it. Yeah, like, it was

1:09:28

a, yeah, like her 40th birthday,

1:09:30

so he made like a full,

1:09:32

like, two-hour documentary about her life

1:09:34

and, like, if you've seen Bo

1:09:37

Jack Horseman, it's literally the Mr.

1:09:39

Peanut Butter and the girl, his

1:09:41

wife, like, he's like, We're going

1:09:43

to have the same argument over

1:09:45

and over again. I don't like

1:09:47

giant surprise parties. Don't throw me

1:09:49

a giant three day surprise party.

1:09:51

Yeah, uh-huh. But he's a, I'm

1:09:53

sure after all this time you

1:09:55

gather that he is a, a

1:09:57

man of only maximalism, like everything

1:09:59

has to be the most. Everything

1:10:01

has to be the most. Yeah.

1:10:03

And yeah, I feel I don't

1:10:05

want to, I don't want to

1:10:08

get to. the weeds but like

1:10:10

it you know at one point

1:10:12

they basically they split up and

1:10:14

then yeah we can do this

1:10:16

to kind of wrap up the

1:10:18

narrative of the book yeah where

1:10:20

his I don't know if you

1:10:22

would agree Todd that the sort

1:10:24

of last maybe quarter of this

1:10:26

book is like hella divorced energy

1:10:28

like he goes to Trinidad to

1:10:30

like kind of like stop being

1:10:32

afraid of the ocean he has

1:10:34

this like Australian like kind of

1:10:36

life coach who is like encouraging

1:10:39

him to do things like form

1:10:41

like a harem like he's she's

1:10:43

like what what's your ideal like

1:10:45

romantic situation he's like a harem

1:10:47

including hally berry? And he's like,

1:10:49

okay, he's like, well, let's unpack

1:10:51

that. Yeah, right. He does, Iowaska

1:10:53

like 14 times in two years.

1:10:55

Honestly, that explains a lot about

1:10:57

latter day Will, more than anything

1:10:59

else is that he's gotten heavy

1:11:01

into the Iowaska. He's gone off

1:11:03

the psychedelics. That was an insane

1:11:05

stat to me. I've never heard

1:11:07

of anyone putting up those Iowaska

1:11:10

numbers. Yeah, I mean, I don't

1:11:12

know. It seems like. There could

1:11:14

and probably as a whole other

1:11:16

like side of this podcast that's

1:11:18

just like the celebrity gossip Side

1:11:20

of this I mean, I guess

1:11:22

we're trying a little to focus

1:11:24

on the media career But you

1:11:26

even as like a very passive

1:11:28

observer, you've definitely been hearing a

1:11:30

lot going on with Will Smith

1:11:32

and Jeda in their personal life

1:11:34

over the last decade or so.

1:11:36

Yes, we were talking about like

1:11:38

his family stuff like it didn't

1:11:41

really start to impact his career

1:11:43

and his children's career Like as

1:11:45

his, you know, marriages are like,

1:11:47

washing up on the rocks. He's

1:11:49

like throwing himself into being super

1:11:51

dad, super stage dad. Like his

1:11:53

daughter mentions once, like she wants

1:11:55

to sing. It's like, okay, then

1:11:57

I'm gonna make you like the

1:11:59

biggest child star alive. And like,

1:12:01

she has the big hit with

1:12:03

my hair. And she's like, well,

1:12:05

that was fun. And I was

1:12:07

like, no, you're not done yet.

1:12:09

We're gonna make the next album,

1:12:12

the next album, like, are we're

1:12:14

like, with my hair now dad.

1:12:16

Wow. But boss moved from willa.

1:12:18

Yeah, really boss. Yeah, that's pretty

1:12:20

bad ass. Remember when Gene was

1:12:22

really good at tweeting? Oh, when

1:12:24

did he had like the very

1:12:26

mystical like ambiguous tweets? With like,

1:12:28

how can mirrors be real if

1:12:30

our eyes aren't real? Yes, yes,

1:12:32

yes, exactly. With interesting like capitalization

1:12:34

as I recall. I really felt

1:12:36

like that was his medium. Okay.

1:12:38

pull this up. Yes. The family's

1:12:40

falling apart. Willow doesn't want to

1:12:43

sing. It's like, okay, well, my

1:12:45

son still acts. We're going to

1:12:47

make another movie. It's like, maybe

1:12:49

I was too harsh on Willow.

1:12:51

Like, I'm going to buy my

1:12:53

child, my teenage child's love by

1:12:55

letting him do whatever the fuck

1:12:57

he wants on set. Yes. And

1:12:59

like, he falls out with his

1:13:01

trainer who like been working on

1:13:03

him since Ali. Like, this is

1:13:05

a terrible thing. I'm here to

1:13:07

make you good and you're making

1:13:09

this crap. because you're letting your

1:13:11

kid slack off and it's like

1:13:14

no it's going to be great

1:13:16

I you know my my child's

1:13:18

going to love me even more

1:13:20

and he does until the movie

1:13:22

comes out and it's awful and

1:13:24

he's awful in it yes yes

1:13:26

it's like you coach your kid

1:13:28

to lose is what happened it's

1:13:30

literally what happened like and that's

1:13:32

like my god this is the

1:13:34

most insane man I have mm-hmm

1:13:36

well not the most insane but

1:13:38

like insane in a way I

1:13:40

don't I have never quite encountered

1:13:42

before. Yeah, this is a new

1:13:45

a new level to me as

1:13:47

well, especially, you know, having read

1:13:49

plenty of these books with some

1:13:51

of the most insane rock stars

1:13:53

of all time. This is beyond

1:13:55

this is so beyond that. And

1:13:57

I don't know. It's and that's

1:13:59

the other weird thing is that

1:14:01

usually in these books. At the

1:14:03

end you kind of come around

1:14:05

to some sort of like life

1:14:07

lesson or you look back at

1:14:09

your life and you're like maybe

1:14:11

I could have done things differently.

1:14:13

I don't know you felt about

1:14:16

like kind of the ending in

1:14:18

closing but like to me it

1:14:20

was more it didn't really feel

1:14:22

like he learned. much other than

1:14:24

like, I mean, I should say,

1:14:26

it closes with him, bungee jumping

1:14:28

into the Grand Canyon. And he

1:14:30

does it on YouTube, like he,

1:14:32

at this point, he has become

1:14:34

a Youtuber. Oh God, I remember

1:14:36

that same job as Will Smith

1:14:38

in a sense. Yeah, you guys

1:14:40

are colleagues. You are colleagues. And

1:14:42

so in, you know, he's talking

1:14:45

a little bit about the idea

1:14:47

of like surrender and letting, you

1:14:49

know, the universe take over and

1:14:51

you can't control things. But it.

1:14:53

stunt that culminates in all these

1:14:55

famous people sending him videos being

1:14:57

like good luck will like it

1:14:59

kind of in some ways it

1:15:01

doesn't feel like he has like

1:15:03

learned anything. He is still just

1:15:05

as grandiose and like over the

1:15:07

top as always and who is

1:15:09

it about ultimately Will Smith? Also

1:15:11

like even the time of this

1:15:13

coming out or in the time

1:15:16

of us recording it. Usually we're

1:15:18

at least when we do one

1:15:20

of these memoirs where at some

1:15:22

point where like there has been

1:15:24

like some kind of closure or

1:15:26

wrap up or even just like

1:15:28

point of you know, finality in

1:15:30

a person's career. When we started,

1:15:32

he's 56 years old. He just

1:15:34

won an Academy Award for Best

1:15:36

Actor 15 minutes after he assaulted

1:15:38

somebody on stage at the Oscars.

1:15:40

He's releasing his first album in

1:15:42

20 years next month. Like there

1:15:44

are several more chapters left in

1:15:47

this person's career. Yeah, like it

1:15:49

was a weird time to be

1:15:51

releasing a memoir because like that's

1:15:53

something for you know when you're

1:15:55

when you're done and Will Smith

1:15:57

was like clearly not done that

1:15:59

at that point but also like

1:16:01

yes I also read it right

1:16:03

after the slap so like what

1:16:05

the it ends with him finding

1:16:07

inner peace and learning that it's

1:16:09

okay to you know be second

1:16:11

place isn't first loser like I

1:16:13

get it now like I'm at

1:16:15

peace and like not only does

1:16:18

the the the ending of the

1:16:20

book contradict that but also everything

1:16:22

we know since it came out

1:16:24

contradicts that yes yeah it's just

1:16:26

like and also just his acting

1:16:28

roles? Like I didn't realize it

1:16:30

until reading this, but I was

1:16:32

like, man, Will Smith is kind

1:16:34

of a selfish actor. He makes

1:16:36

vanity projects every single one of

1:16:38

them. Yeah, wow. Even the good

1:16:40

ones. They're like, it's the Will

1:16:42

Smith show. Yeah, yeah. He has

1:16:44

never not been the star of

1:16:46

a movie. You could argue that

1:16:49

the most signature Will Smith movie

1:16:51

is I am legend, a movie

1:16:53

where he's I am legend, a

1:16:55

movie where he's like, Do you,

1:16:57

I mean, do you, I know

1:16:59

we've like kind of mentioned in

1:17:01

fits and starts this, this lap,

1:17:03

do you have a take on

1:17:05

the slap? Do you, you know,

1:17:07

do, what's your kind of cultural

1:17:09

analysis of the slapper around the

1:17:11

world? He can't admit it, but

1:17:13

he had started celebrating early. He

1:17:15

had some nose candy, is my

1:17:17

feeling. You think it was just

1:17:20

pure cocaine psychosis? Yes, I absolutely

1:17:22

do. Okay. All right. I just

1:17:24

could not stop thinking about the

1:17:26

chicken after I realized that the

1:17:28

chicken was code for drugs. It

1:17:30

changes everything. Now I am inclined

1:17:32

to embrace my colleague Matt Chrisman's

1:17:34

interpretation of this event, even though

1:17:36

it is a slightly more metaphysical

1:17:38

one in which that this was

1:17:40

a post-covid, I believe the first

1:17:42

one back, post-covid Academy Awards, and

1:17:44

that... Will Smith being a being

1:17:46

of pure entertainment understood that there

1:17:48

needed to be some rupture, some

1:17:51

kind of event to break through

1:17:53

the stupor of the COVID era

1:17:55

and make the Academy Awards relevant

1:17:57

again. And I don't think that

1:17:59

it was a conscious decision, but

1:18:01

he was acting through the impulse

1:18:03

of pure spectacle and knowing that

1:18:05

I need to shake the whole

1:18:07

world in a way that will

1:18:09

make them say no, this is

1:18:11

important. What is happening here is

1:18:13

real and visceral and is worth

1:18:15

talking about. And I'm also going

1:18:17

to win Best Actor in like

1:18:19

20 minutes. So everybody pay attention?

1:18:22

That is, that's an interesting analysis.

1:18:24

Also to go back to the

1:18:26

book for one second when he's

1:18:28

in this like sort of divorced

1:18:30

therapy moment, his therapist is divided

1:18:32

his persona into two. to distinct

1:18:34

beings. There is uncle Fluffy who

1:18:36

is like the crowd pleaser. You

1:18:38

know, he says yes to everything.

1:18:40

He will sign every autograph. He

1:18:42

will do whatever needs to be

1:18:44

done. And then there is the

1:18:46

general who is like the taskmaster,

1:18:48

the strict militaristic person. And I

1:18:50

wonder if that this was... At

1:18:53

least a rejection of Uncle Fluffy,

1:18:55

it was him being like, I

1:18:57

am no, I'm not that guy

1:18:59

anymore. No, I guess what I'm

1:19:01

supposing that that was a pure

1:19:03

Uncle Fluffy moment, that he was

1:19:05

doing it for everyone's entertainment, and

1:19:07

it was what he could do

1:19:09

in the moment to pierce, you

1:19:11

know, the fog that had descended

1:19:13

on everything. Do you think it's

1:19:15

because he has literally played Muhammad

1:19:17

Ali? that he knows the value

1:19:19

of a single hit to just

1:19:21

change the course of life. You

1:19:24

know, the funny thing is if

1:19:26

he, if it had, the slap

1:19:28

had just been the slap. We

1:19:30

would have all off. Because it

1:19:32

was like a stage slap. It

1:19:34

was like a, you know, stop

1:19:36

talking, but you know, not like

1:19:38

a, yeah, anyone got actually. Yeah,

1:19:40

I was just like, you know,

1:19:42

according, according to Judd Aptow. It

1:19:44

was just a dope slap like

1:19:46

shadap. And then like he walks

1:19:48

off like fluffing his jacket like

1:19:50

I'm still cool Will you know

1:19:52

nothing that nothing weird happened day

1:19:55

and like you know I was

1:19:57

watching with a friend we thought

1:19:59

it was just a bit you

1:20:01

know everything's everything's normal that we

1:20:03

thought it was a joke a

1:20:05

bit yeah and then they gets

1:20:07

the part where they're there's you

1:20:09

know they've cut the sound and

1:20:11

they're like something's happening. Yeah this

1:20:13

this wasn't a bit. ugly ass

1:20:15

Oscars by the way that was

1:20:17

just like an unpleasant experience from

1:20:19

beginning to end not just like

1:20:21

even before that and the next

1:20:23

year after that was the one

1:20:26

where you know Brennan Fraser won

1:20:28

and everything everywhere all at once

1:20:30

won it was like tears of

1:20:32

joy fest yeah and now it

1:20:34

seems like we're going back and

1:20:36

do uh there's a lot of

1:20:38

negative but this is not look

1:20:40

This is in an Oscar's podcast.

1:20:42

I think we can maybe put

1:20:44

bow on the Will Smith discussion

1:20:46

for for for now. Yes, we

1:20:48

can. Hopefully we'll get around to

1:20:50

of whatever he learns after his

1:20:52

next. I'm interested. I think we'll

1:20:54

all listen to the March Will

1:20:57

Smith album and be like, what

1:20:59

the hell's going on here? Who

1:21:01

do you think he's gonna get

1:21:03

featured on this? You think he's

1:21:05

gonna get like a baby? He

1:21:07

had a feature from Big Sean

1:21:09

who is not the biggest name

1:21:11

in the world right now. Yeah.

1:21:13

But like, you know, that's a

1:21:15

match up that makes sense. Like

1:21:17

if they get Luda out of

1:21:19

retirement, like I think Luda would

1:21:21

make sense. That would be great.

1:21:23

Like the only feature on his

1:21:25

last album was Snoop. I don't

1:21:28

know if it was like Snoop

1:21:30

would make sense three months ago.

1:21:32

Maybe. Right now, maybe Snoop wants

1:21:34

to lay low for a little

1:21:36

bit. Yeah, after playing the inaugural

1:21:38

ball. I'm sorry, not the inaugural

1:21:40

ball. The crypto adjacent event of

1:21:42

the inaugural ball. Yeah, whatever it

1:21:44

is. I mean, that's not better

1:21:46

Snoop. That's not. Okay. But like,

1:21:48

you know, Will Smith and Snoop

1:21:50

occupy similar spots in the world

1:21:52

right now, I feel like. So

1:21:54

that, you know, if they wanted

1:21:56

to make a return, you know,

1:21:59

a second collab, that would make

1:22:01

sense to me. Yeah, yeah, people

1:22:03

from his generation. I don't know

1:22:05

like who like I don't think

1:22:07

you're getting like little baby or

1:22:09

21 savage on there or anything.

1:22:11

Xavier so based. Maybe a little

1:22:13

yachty would pop on just for

1:22:15

fun. Yeah. Little yachty would make

1:22:17

sense. Yeah, that could be cool.

1:22:19

Back on my journey, I'm taking

1:22:21

my chances, searching and questioning, looking

1:22:23

for answers, hoping this medicine, heal

1:22:25

all the damage, my inner child,

1:22:27

keep throwing a tantrum. All right,

1:22:30

I don't want to keep you

1:22:32

too long and please let me

1:22:34

know of you. you know, have

1:22:36

a hard out of one to

1:22:38

sign up. But this is actually

1:22:40

a good transition because I do

1:22:42

want to get maybe even just

1:22:44

a few thoughts of yours. You

1:22:46

just published both your worst of

1:22:48

2024 and best of 2024 videos.

1:22:50

I think a lot of interesting

1:22:52

things going on in popular music

1:22:54

in 2024. Major inflection points in

1:22:56

the world of hip-hop, even with,

1:22:58

you know, Kendrick slaying, a certain

1:23:01

kind of aots. style of hip-hop.

1:23:03

I mean basically to me it

1:23:05

looks like the kind of closing

1:23:07

final closing of the aunts era

1:23:09

of music we have a major

1:23:11

like changing of the guard in

1:23:13

the female pop stars with the

1:23:15

final one down of the the

1:23:17

era's tour and kind of the

1:23:19

imperial Beyonce presenting an album but

1:23:21

not really like doing anything with

1:23:23

it while you know Sabrina Olivia

1:23:25

Chapel Charlie are all on a

1:23:27

Senate you're feeling that wheel of

1:23:30

pop start them turnover the country

1:23:32

music FAD is finally getting so

1:23:34

saturated as to feel actually bloated.

1:23:36

I don't know, to me it

1:23:38

seems like a very interesting pivot

1:23:40

year in music and I just

1:23:42

kind of would like to get

1:23:44

your thoughts on looking back on

1:23:46

the year as a whole. Oh

1:23:48

yeah, 2024 was a big. It

1:23:50

felt like a big recycling like

1:23:52

the the old guard is out

1:23:54

the new guard is in like

1:23:56

Taylor Swift has hit like late

1:23:58

80s Rolling Stones era Where is

1:24:01

like she can still she's still

1:24:03

putting up numbers her tours still

1:24:05

big, but like this the last

1:24:07

album was the The first Taylor

1:24:09

album in a while that didn't

1:24:11

feel essential. Yeah, it wasn't driving

1:24:13

the narrative and You know I

1:24:15

just want to stop it's like

1:24:17

Announcing your next album while you're

1:24:19

winning your album of the year,

1:24:21

Granite, and saying it's coming out

1:24:23

in like two weeks is crazy.

1:24:25

That's some Will Smith style shit,

1:24:27

honestly. Yeah. So who knows what's

1:24:29

going to happen? I mean, I

1:24:32

don't want to talk about the

1:24:34

zeitgeist and you know, like, presidential

1:24:36

administrations don't dictate music, but like

1:24:38

last time this guy was in

1:24:40

charge. Music got very weird. Uh-huh.

1:24:42

Yeah. It took like a severe

1:24:44

downturn. And I... like it was

1:24:46

became very moody and like post

1:24:48

below and that's when he blew

1:24:50

up. That's when his style of

1:24:52

music got big. So it feels

1:24:54

like 2024 was like the exact

1:24:56

opposite of that. It was like

1:24:58

bright and explosive and you know

1:25:00

who knows where that carries us.

1:25:03

You know like hip-hop had a

1:25:05

rough go of it during the

1:25:07

Biden years and like Kendrick you

1:25:09

know blowing up as big as

1:25:11

he has might put some more

1:25:13

energy back into the genre who

1:25:15

knows. I want country to go

1:25:17

away. I agree on that. When

1:25:19

it blew up in the early

1:25:21

20-20s, I was like, yeah, I

1:25:23

like all these songs. And then

1:25:25

it just the same old bullshit

1:25:27

started blowing it down again. It

1:25:29

was fun for a while. Was

1:25:31

it you that made this point?

1:25:34

Probably. I mean, I was just

1:25:36

feeling that the thing about country

1:25:38

is that they'll kind of take

1:25:40

anyone who tries to do it.

1:25:42

So it ends up feeling like

1:25:44

so much of the stuff this

1:25:46

year. You know, while again I

1:25:48

try to very very much not

1:25:50

be a country just as a

1:25:52

person, it just felt so mercenary,

1:25:54

you know. Oh yeah. You mean

1:25:56

all the people who came into

1:25:58

the like post Malone or like

1:26:00

Jelly Roll used to wrap and

1:26:02

now he's doing country? Basically just

1:26:05

like a lot of white, white

1:26:07

wrappers finding a home now. Yeah,

1:26:09

exactly. And then it, God, it's

1:26:11

even trickling down now to like

1:26:13

indie music where like every indie

1:26:15

like act is now doing like

1:26:17

their like alt country thing and

1:26:19

I'm also tired of that. Yeah.

1:26:21

And I wish everything sounded more

1:26:23

like Devo. They're trading out their

1:26:25

synthesizers to buy pedal steals. To

1:26:27

buy pedal seals. You're throwing away

1:26:29

pedal seals to my synthesizers. You

1:26:31

need a license to do pedal

1:26:33

seal. in my administration. Yeah. Well,

1:26:36

I don't, I never have an

1:26:38

idea where any of this is

1:26:40

going. I know 2024 was a

1:26:42

very exciting year. Just like 2019

1:26:44

was a very exciting year. Where

1:26:46

it goes, I don't know. Yeah.

1:26:48

I'd like it to keep the

1:26:50

momentum up, but like, you never

1:26:52

know. 1999 is a great year

1:26:54

for music, 2000 is not a

1:26:56

very good year for music at

1:26:58

all. So, 2013 gave us Royals.

1:27:00

2014 gave us all about that

1:27:02

base. Oh God. We're going to

1:27:04

find out what the anti-woke brat

1:27:07

is this year. Addison would have

1:27:09

the opportunity to do the funniest

1:27:11

thing ever. I don't know. If

1:27:13

I admit, anti-woke music had a

1:27:15

big time during the Biden administration.

1:27:17

I ever feel like now that

1:27:19

the other guy is in charge,

1:27:21

we're going to see that flip

1:27:23

too. Who knows? Katie Perry dropped

1:27:25

143 a year early, too early.

1:27:27

Oh, yes. Women's World in 2025

1:27:29

would slap. 2024? Absolutely not. We

1:27:31

need to rebuild. The best thing

1:27:33

I heard about a woman's world

1:27:35

was that, thank you Matthew Perpetua

1:27:38

from Pitch Fork. He said, it

1:27:40

sounds like it came from the

1:27:42

alternate universe where Hillary won. where

1:27:44

it also flopped. So. God. We've

1:27:46

tested every possible, every possible universe

1:27:48

in the multiverse and it's a

1:27:50

flop and all of them. It's

1:27:52

gonna be a no for every.

1:27:54

Yeah. I don't know. I think

1:27:56

I just gathered through your videos.

1:27:58

I mean, I enjoy, I always

1:28:00

enjoy your worst of videos, but

1:28:02

also, you know, I think that

1:28:04

all of us music enjoyers. savored

1:28:06

having a year where it's like

1:28:09

so much was clicking and so

1:28:11

much new stuff was coming out

1:28:13

and so much stuff that had

1:28:15

become tiresome was finally seeming to

1:28:17

wind down but not even in

1:28:19

but in like a graceful way

1:28:21

like it wasn't like stuff like

1:28:23

hit a wall in in ways

1:28:25

where people that people genuinely like

1:28:27

like a Taylor Swift had like

1:28:29

flopped or anything it's like all

1:28:31

right this is winding down and

1:28:33

we can kind of move on

1:28:35

to something else. I don't know.

1:28:37

I just had very positive feelings

1:28:40

about what's going on. I mean,

1:28:42

I feel like not not like

1:28:44

us was just like the perfect

1:28:46

example even beyond the other than

1:28:48

Drake, other than Drake, which we

1:28:50

needed to sacrifice Drake to move

1:28:52

on as a society, but into

1:28:54

the volcano, appease the gods. Not

1:28:56

like us beyond the just like

1:28:58

kind of tabloidy, gossipy, you know,

1:29:00

sniping between two extremely famous rappers

1:29:02

like that is a dynamic. party

1:29:04

song with like a melodic beat

1:29:06

and like you know moments where

1:29:08

of like audience participation like it's

1:29:11

it's not just like mush like

1:29:13

I feel like we're kind of

1:29:15

coming out of a mush era

1:29:17

yeah I mean that I'm ready

1:29:19

for it you know even Billy

1:29:21

Irish who likes to just like

1:29:23

whisper over a single 808 usually

1:29:25

is like making CBS bangers music

1:29:27

so yeah I mean I'm just

1:29:29

hoping people do more of that

1:29:31

and then don't revert to mush

1:29:33

yeah I mean done with Bush

1:29:35

that's the thing that that I

1:29:37

mean there's so many words been

1:29:39

spelled about that Kendrick song but

1:29:42

it defeated Drake not just on

1:29:44

the level like a rhetorical level

1:29:46

but all Also on making a

1:29:48

song that was fun and energetic

1:29:50

and not just mumbling over sad

1:29:52

tropical housebeats about text messages you're

1:29:54

sending, you know? Yeah. A new

1:29:56

way of having fun. Leaving voicemails.

1:29:58

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well. We're recording

1:30:00

this before the Super Bowl. We'll

1:30:02

see how that goes. Like, yes.

1:30:04

Reports are, they're going full speed

1:30:06

ahead with not like us, so

1:30:08

it... Oh, hell yeah. That's very

1:30:10

exciting. I can't wait to see

1:30:13

how the, like, army of, like,

1:30:15

dancers slash, like, trained audience members

1:30:17

react to this. This is gonna

1:30:19

be good. All right, well, we

1:30:21

won't keep you any longer. This

1:30:23

has been great. Todd, Todd, thank

1:30:25

you so much for showing up

1:30:27

on the YouTube. Molly and I

1:30:29

cannot recommend it enough. Yes. So

1:30:31

much great stuff there. Is there

1:30:33

anything that you would specifically like

1:30:35

to highlight or is there anything

1:30:37

off channel that you would like

1:30:39

to plug Todd? I also have

1:30:41

my own podcast, Song versus Song,

1:30:44

where we take two similar songs

1:30:46

and we argue about which one

1:30:48

is better. Great. That's me and

1:30:50

my podcast co-host Lena Morgan. Check

1:30:52

that out. Please support us. That's

1:30:54

it. Thank you. Yes. Thank you

1:30:56

so much. Well, you're welcome back

1:30:58

any time to talk about any

1:31:00

other, we won't find a weirder

1:31:02

guy to talk about, but anyone

1:31:04

else you want to talk about

1:31:06

will have you back. Molly, anything

1:31:08

you would like to play? Like,

1:31:10

it drives me crazy that I'm

1:31:12

the only person I know who's

1:31:15

read this book. I'm like, you

1:31:17

know, I'm the only person I

1:31:19

know who's read this book. I'm

1:31:21

like, I wouldn't say that for

1:31:23

many books. It's good and there's

1:31:25

music to enjoy on it. That's

1:31:27

all. Great. And for me, I

1:31:29

mean, I do a bunch of

1:31:31

pods, but I will plug that

1:31:33

Molly and I's literature podcast. Oh,

1:31:35

yes. Infinite Cast is starting up

1:31:37

with a new series about Don

1:31:39

Delillo's Underworld. Underworld. Undercast, hopefully I

1:31:41

will have published the first episode

1:31:43

of that. That is wherever you

1:31:46

get podcast. as infinite cast

1:31:48

podcast. Podcast for everyone, music,

1:31:50

media. It's, it's

1:31:52

music media, it's alive. But

1:31:54

you know where

1:31:56

to find where to find

1:31:58

gmail .com. Uh, power

1:32:00