0:02

Hello everyone, We appreciate

0:05

the fabulous response response to

0:07

the end Future future podcast

0:09

to share one of

0:11

our of episodes from

0:14

from season one, our new

0:16

listeners. our new listeners. These

0:18

Paul one of the

0:21

of leaders in creating

0:23

sustainable businesses. I

0:25

hope you enjoy this

0:27

conversation about how we

0:29

can achieve how we can achieve

0:32

net positive and successful thriving

0:34

companies. Today I'm thrilled.

0:36

I'm thrilled. I'm happy. I'm I'm thrilled,

0:38

to I'm happy, I'm excited to

0:40

be speaking with my good

0:43

friend He been He has been all

0:45

along my career and role model

0:47

and you will understand why. is

0:49

is the former CEO of Ineliver one

0:51

of the of the foremost

0:53

leaders the the effort to

0:55

create sustainable and profitable

0:58

businesses. He now

1:00

runs an an called Imagine. called a

1:02

beautiful name? a beautiful for

1:04

businesses for a true force

1:06

for good. true Paul is

1:08

also the author of the

1:10

author of net It's fabulous fabulous

1:12

how courageous companies thrive by

1:14

giving more than they

1:16

take. they take. So Paul, thank you

1:18

so much for joining

1:20

us today. today. Thank you, Thank you, Ella, and

1:22

great to see you again. You

1:24

have such an incredible leadership story,

1:26

I'm sure many people in the

1:28

audience know it already. So know it

1:31

in the Netherlands, not far from

1:33

here, from Belgium, from to a Catholic

1:35

family, you once thought

1:37

you would become a

1:39

priest, a but you changed

1:41

course and went on to

1:43

have an amazing career,

1:45

eventually becoming what you call

1:47

what you CEO. CEO. Through it, Olio has

1:49

been one of the of the

1:51

top inspiring voices voices of many

1:53

of generation generation of me in the me

1:55

in the business world, for

1:57

calling for board leadership and

1:59

sustainability. Tell me, Paul, what was there

2:02

a specific moment in your life

2:04

that truly made you passionate about

2:06

this new kind of leadership? And

2:08

do you think that your youthful

2:10

desire to be a Catholic priest,

2:13

shapes the kind of leader I

2:15

would later become? Well I

2:17

don't regret not pursuing that right.

2:19

I was born not going to

2:21

go after World War II and

2:23

my parents most were deprived of

2:26

education. I always thought it was

2:28

a long time ago since World

2:30

War II when I was born,

2:32

but the older I get the

2:34

more I realize how close it

2:36

was. So you know all that

2:39

counted for them was to give

2:41

us the education that they were

2:43

deprived of to have peace in

2:45

Europe to make their communities work.

2:47

So I think we grew up

2:49

with some values of dignity and

2:52

respect for everybody, equity, a certain

2:54

level of confession that have served

2:56

me well throughout my career. But

2:58

really the issues of the environmental

3:00

and social side, what you call

3:02

in the ESG, really came to

3:05

the foreground more or less. in

3:07

the 90s when we had the

3:09

first video conference in 1992, and

3:11

then I participated in Rio Plus

3:13

20, which was in 2012. And

3:15

in Rio Plus 20, we actually

3:18

decided to continue the sequel of

3:20

the male development goals. If you

3:22

remember COVIDOL, About the year 2000,

3:24

the millennial development goals, half the

3:26

number of people in poverty in

3:28

the world, at that time defined

3:30

as $1.25 a day, we achieved

3:33

that, that people said, we need

3:35

to finish the job. And out

3:37

of that came the sustainable development

3:39

goals. And I was very lucky,

3:41

in a sense, to be asked

3:43

by then Secretary General Balkemud to

3:46

be part of the idea of

3:48

a panel. representing the private sector

3:50

to develop these sustainable development goals.

3:52

So we worked on it for

3:54

two years with business, civil society,

3:56

governments. I saw the power of

3:59

these partnerships and out of that

4:01

came the sustainable development goals. every

4:03

possibly eradicate poverty and do that

4:05

in a more sustainable and equitable

4:07

way or as some people simply

4:09

call it to not leave anybody

4:12

behind. And this is the model

4:14

that I really started to implement

4:16

that in Unilever's business model because

4:18

I simply saw that as a

4:20

great opportunity. It was very clear

4:22

to me that the planet planetary

4:25

boundaries, we can't have infinite growth

4:27

on a finite planet. We were

4:29

hitting already at that time some

4:31

of these planetary boundaries, the issues

4:33

of climate change were fairly obvious

4:35

even then, but we haven't really

4:37

succeeded in translating that into a

4:40

good business plan. Most people do

4:42

something good, it must cost me

4:44

more. or if I tackle climate

4:46

things that must go at the

4:48

expense of the success or the

4:50

growth of my company. And bit

4:53

by bit, I think we've overcome

4:55

that. This technology with examples, with

4:57

this creativity, with innovation, and now

4:59

it's probably the growth story of

5:01

the century that we're sitting on.

5:03

Most businesses understand the direction we

5:06

need to take, but we're simply

5:08

not going at the speed and

5:10

scale that is needed. So that's

5:12

what I'm entirely focused on now.

5:14

Yeah, and I don't remember Paul

5:16

watching you, you know, as an

5:19

executive and an employee in other

5:21

lives, right, that you really hold

5:23

the torch of that sustainability inside

5:25

Unilever, right? And you were always

5:27

advocating what I, you know, really

5:29

push you today as sustainability is

5:32

not against profitability. And you recently

5:34

published an excellent book here, which

5:36

I have right here with me,

5:38

called Net Positive. In the book,

5:40

you and your co-author Andre Winston

5:42

talk about how companies can try

5:44

by giving more than they take.

5:47

And I found it a really

5:49

interesting concept because it's very easy

5:51

to understand. It's put the things

5:53

on a simple manner how to

5:55

give more than what you take

5:57

from Mother Nature. our planet. Can

6:00

you explain more about the book

6:02

for our listeners? What exactly does

6:04

it mean to be a net

6:06

positive company? It's proving to

6:08

be very useful and we're in

6:10

the still print already but I

6:12

really never was intending to write

6:14

a book. I always felt that

6:16

the CEOs when they retire writing

6:18

books and they're mainly he's still

6:21

unfortunately want to strike their ego

6:23

or change history and you know

6:25

that was not appealing to me.

6:27

But the more I thought about

6:29

it I said well as I

6:31

do it's probably good to change

6:33

a mindset or create a movement

6:35

to refray what good looks like.

6:37

And so I asked Andrew Winston,

6:39

who I admired and I wanted

6:41

the US perspective, but the essence

6:43

is really this alien. If you

6:45

take the world as 4.6 billion

6:47

years old and you put it

6:49

on a scale of 46 years,

6:51

human beings have only been around

6:53

for four hours. The industrial revolution

6:55

started one minute ago and in

6:57

that one minute we've cut down

6:59

half the world's forests. World overshoot

7:01

day, which is the day that

7:03

we use up more resources. than

7:05

the planet can be planet. This

7:07

year is July 28th. I would

7:09

argue that out of the day,

7:11

each day after, we're actually stealing

7:13

from future generations. We're living well

7:15

above the planetary boundaries limits. And

7:17

our linear, extractive production model just

7:19

doesn't work anymore. It's designed for

7:21

perhaps 3 billion people on this

7:23

planet with 8 billion people being

7:25

four times wealthier if you want

7:27

to, since World War II than

7:29

before. It's just... putting too much

7:31

freshen and that is what we're

7:33

seeing now in things like climate

7:35

change but also in things like

7:37

the equity or a broken food

7:39

system there are many more symptoms

7:42

that are coming to light now

7:44

so the group is very simple

7:46

most these are in the sea

7:48

as are more you saw that

7:50

in Glasgow you saw it at

7:52

in most of their sustainability reports

7:54

it's nothing wrong with in essence,

7:56

CSR is about less plastics in

7:58

the ocean, less carbon emission, less

8:00

deforestation in the supply chain, a

8:02

little bit better human rights, but

8:04

it is all about being less

8:06

bad. But what we're trying to

8:08

say is this book, less bad

8:10

is simply not good enough. If

8:12

I used to murder 10 people

8:14

and now I only murder five

8:16

people, I'm not a better mother.

8:18

So people say I get it,

8:20

so I want to be in

8:22

that zero. So all of us

8:24

receive net zero commitments is basically

8:26

a no harm principle being sustainable.

8:28

But sustain means maintain. The change

8:30

we need us in the mindset

8:32

is to think regenerative, restorative, reparative,

8:34

and that is what we call

8:36

net positive. It's a very simple

8:38

follow-up question. Is the world better?

8:40

Yes, I'll know. So we are

8:42

so happy Paul that you decided

8:44

to write a book. And one

8:46

of my favorite chapters in the

8:48

book is the one on unlocking

8:50

a company's soul. I think we

8:52

think a lot with our minds

8:54

that's bringing the hearts and the

8:56

soul and discovering the company's purpose.

8:58

I think I've stolen a lot

9:01

from you as a new CEO,

9:03

and in the book you write,

9:05

and I'm reading it, there is

9:07

nothing more power from foreign organizations

9:09

than gets into the heart of

9:11

why it exists, and then making

9:13

that purpose common life. And it's

9:15

so important that that's exactly why

9:17

we immediately engage in our own

9:19

purpose exercise. So can you tell

9:21

us more about the journey you

9:23

took in your careers to find

9:25

universe purpose? Did you run into

9:27

challenges skepticism? And if so, how

9:29

did you deal with this and

9:31

what companies out there do you

9:33

think are really living such a

9:35

purpose and how you can link

9:37

it to the net positive? Yeah,

9:40

and we're asking this because that's

9:42

probably the most important, you know,

9:44

thing is to have a strong

9:46

purpose, but not only having that

9:48

purpose, but the difficult thing is

9:50

actually making it come a life,

9:52

which is a question of having

9:55

the right values and the right

9:57

behaviors, so you get it embedded

9:59

in your culture, and that's probably

10:01

the most difficult thing. that you

10:03

cannot be a sustainable company if

10:05

you're not sustainable yourself and you

10:08

cannot be a purpose driven company

10:10

if you're not purposeful yourself. So

10:12

it starts with yourself. So you're

10:14

embedding it as a driver of

10:16

your business and this is really

10:18

what purpose should be doing. When

10:20

times are so uncertain and volatile

10:23

environments, when people have so much

10:25

anxiety about what is going to

10:27

happen, purpose provides that true Norse.

10:29

I like Bill George's book, which

10:31

was called true Norse, which talks

10:33

about that beacon, that strong inner

10:36

core. If you have that strong

10:38

inner core, you actually become more

10:40

courageous. The road to change is

10:42

full of skeptics and cynics. And

10:44

if you have that strong purpose,

10:46

it keeps you going. and it's

10:49

tremendously powerful, as I'll tell you

10:51

in a minute, a junior lever.

10:53

What we did is probably not

10:55

different when you did, when you

10:57

went back to Arnold Solvary, is

10:59

to really look at the history

11:01

of the company. When Lord Lever

11:04

started a new lever at the

11:06

end of the 19th century, his

11:08

purpose was to make hygiene commonplace.

11:10

One out of two babies in

11:12

Victoria in Victoria in Britain didn't

11:14

make it past year one either,

11:17

because of the issues of the

11:19

issues of IG. So he invented

11:21

the bar soap. He built the

11:23

housing. for his workers before the

11:25

factories were up and running, guaranteed

11:27

six-day work meets before anybody else

11:29

introduced pensions. In a sense, the

11:32

man was ahead of his time.

11:34

In fact, when he even went

11:36

to the House of Lords, he

11:38

took the name of his wife.

11:40

That even hasn't happened since we're

11:42

living in 2022. Jim Collins, when

11:45

he wrote the book from good

11:47

to great, he had something in

11:49

there and had said, not should

11:51

a core, before you stimulate progress.

11:53

So out of that came our

11:55

purpose, which was making sustainable living

11:57

commonplace. We actually spent a whole

12:00

year with our top 500 executives

12:02

discovering their purpose and how to

12:04

use their purpose to positively influence

12:06

others and ultimately how to get

12:08

results. has now been extended to

12:10

nearly all employees in Unilever and

12:13

still gets the highest scores. And

12:15

out of depth, I think at

12:17

the end of the day, came

12:19

courage. Currents to take responsibility of

12:21

our total impact in the world,

12:23

not only scope one and two,

12:26

there's still too many companies that

12:28

think they can outsource their value

12:30

chain and also outsource their responsibilities.

12:32

It just doesn't work anymore. And

12:34

frankly, where you cannot achieve them

12:36

alone, where you don't have the

12:38

answers on how to do this.

12:41

Then it requires partnership and that

12:43

is courage as well because when

12:45

you work with other people you're

12:47

not totally in charge. You might

12:49

be in convenient truths. You have

12:51

to understand what real needs are

12:54

of others to get plans out

12:56

there that really deal with the

12:58

interest of all of your stakeholders.

13:00

So purpose unlocks that. And what

13:02

we found in Unilever that when

13:04

we made this purpose come a

13:06

life Not only did we see

13:09

the trust go up in the

13:11

company, more people willing to work

13:13

with us and partnerships with open

13:15

opportunities, but more importantly, we saw

13:17

our employee engagement call through the

13:19

roof and we became in most

13:22

of the markets we operated and

13:24

if not all, the preferred employer.

13:26

We started to be the third

13:28

most looped up company on LinkedIn,

13:30

two million people applying every year.

13:32

So this whole notion of purpose

13:34

I think is incredibly powerful. Companies

13:37

that are more purpose driven. that

13:39

are operating under these lower term

13:41

multi-stakeholder formats, but sustainability right at

13:43

the core of their strategy, so

13:45

it really pays. And in the

13:47

case of Unilever, that certainly was

13:50

the case. Absolutely, and I think

13:52

you became an icon for all

13:54

of us and Twain used to

13:56

say the most important days in

13:58

life is the day you are

14:00

born and the day you know

14:03

why. And I think you are

14:05

getting us at the individual level,

14:07

leadership level, company level to really

14:09

rethink that purpose. And frankly, again,

14:11

you've been inspiring me throughout my

14:13

career. So you talked about courage,

14:15

having a vision, embarking your employees

14:18

and you said also. we can't

14:20

do it alone. And you have

14:22

a lot of interesting things to

14:24

say about partnerships in your book

14:26

and what are the best kind

14:28

of partnership. Can you explain more?

14:31

How would you say partnership drive

14:33

the changes we need to do?

14:35

So we have two chapters in

14:37

the book. That's how important we

14:39

think it is. One plus one

14:41

is 11, which is basically partnerships

14:43

in your own value chain. or

14:46

at industry level. And then we

14:48

have another one that says it

14:50

takes three to tangle, which is

14:52

really partnerships with civil society and

14:54

governments to drive the broader systems

14:56

changes. What is currently happening is

14:59

that most companies, most CEOs, try

15:01

to do the right thing. There

15:03

are no CEOs who want more

15:05

unemployment or air pollution or people

15:07

going to bed hungry, but collectively

15:09

we don't seem to achieve. these

15:11

objectives and it is because we

15:14

are optimizing within a system that

15:16

isn't designed to deliver anymore. So

15:18

without any doubt, you need to

15:20

work in your partnership to get

15:22

your suppliers and your customers aligned

15:24

on your purpose, on your efficient.

15:27

Most companies make carbon commitments on

15:29

not only scope one and two

15:31

but increasingly on scope three. Well

15:33

scope three for some is scope

15:35

one or two for others. So

15:37

this broader partnership in the value

15:40

chain is important. And we see

15:42

increasingly companies moving in that direction

15:44

very clearly during COVID. Companies that

15:46

had better relationships with their suppliers

15:48

or their customers were more resilient.

15:50

They did better during the crisis.

15:52

When there were supply chain problems,

15:55

the people worked harder together to

15:57

solve them. Where the relationships were

15:59

very transactional and only cost-driven. There

16:01

was no emotional love if you

16:03

want to or goodwill in the

16:05

bank account to really go the

16:08

extra mile. So it really works

16:10

in that sense. We put capabilities

16:12

in place. our small and medium-sized

16:14

enterprises. And we had the responsible

16:16

sourcing code, as we called it,

16:18

where we helped suppliers get through

16:20

three levels, ultimate level being really

16:23

deep partnerships aligned to all the

16:25

values. And it served them well.

16:27

All the suppliers actually were happy

16:29

to be part of that. but

16:31

you can only do as I

16:33

said so much with the global

16:36

consumer goods industry which we created

16:38

as major retailers and manufacturers. We

16:40

made some commitments on plastics in

16:42

the oceans or on deforestation or

16:44

human rights in the value chain

16:46

but ultimately unique the broader partnerships

16:48

with governments and civil society to

16:51

truly put the right frameworks or

16:53

policies in place to ensure that

16:55

everybody moves to ensure that there

16:57

is a level playing field and

16:59

to ensure that you go and

17:01

at scale so that the economics

17:04

don't start to work against you.

17:06

So the first five years was

17:08

Unilever, bring our own house in

17:10

order. gain trust, get a seat

17:12

at the table, but the second

17:14

five years I used the size

17:17

and scale of the organization to

17:19

drive more transformative partnerships. That's a

17:21

typical partnership of one plus one

17:23

is 11. Nobody can do it

17:25

on all, but together you're actually

17:27

doing a miracle. I actually created

17:29

Imagine after I left Unilever very

17:32

briefly for that same reason because

17:34

I understood that all the CEOs

17:36

are very busy. There's a lot

17:38

of challenges that you have on

17:40

your plates and it's difficult to

17:42

create these coalitions because sometimes there's

17:45

competitive pressure, their lack of resources

17:47

or knowledge, and it's even more

17:49

difficult to work with governments. So

17:51

what we now do is imagine

17:53

we look at the industries that

17:55

have the most, say, devastating effects

17:57

on the sustainable development goals, but

18:00

it's obviously the energy transition, food,

18:02

tourists and travel, and how can

18:04

we get a critical mass of

18:06

CEOs together across the value? to

18:08

work together on things that no

18:10

company can do alone. So we're

18:13

moving to a get out of

18:15

single-use plastics, joint buying of green

18:17

energy, moving to regenerative agriculture. So

18:19

we find that if the CEOs

18:21

come together, they become more courageous,

18:23

but then we can also solve

18:25

across the value chain some of

18:28

these bottlenecks. And what BCG, Boston

18:30

Consulting Group, has actually shown in

18:32

some of the work that you

18:34

have seen at the IPC, the

18:36

International Business Council at the Wealth

18:38

Economic Forum, that if you actually

18:41

are able to transform all of

18:43

these value chains to sustainable value

18:45

chains, it's probably 9 to 16%

18:47

cheaper than if you continue to

18:49

work on these unsustainable value chains

18:51

that cause a lot of disruptions

18:54

and frankly create the issues that

18:56

come back to us directly or

18:58

indirectly in our business models. It's

19:00

about mindset change, it's about leadership

19:02

and I also really loved your

19:04

chapter on leadership and your discussion

19:06

on of how important empathy and

19:09

vulnerability and humility are in great

19:11

leaders, right? While in the old

19:13

days, IQ power experience and vision

19:15

were good enough. So can Can

19:17

you elaborate on what it takes

19:19

to be that leader for the

19:22

future? Are you seeing more and

19:24

more of these pathetic leaders emerging?

19:26

Who do you particularly admire as

19:28

a leader for? William, you're a

19:30

great example of that. I think

19:32

the company should be proud to

19:34

have you as part of the

19:37

B team. and that is proving

19:39

to be very productive and we

19:41

can talk about that later. But

19:43

what there is no doubt that

19:45

I want to start with that

19:47

ultimately companies need to make a

19:50

profit. I always say profit is

19:52

like white blood cells in your

19:54

body. You need white blood cells

19:56

to live but you don't live

19:58

for white blood cells or not.

20:00

So in fact nobody lives for

20:02

white blood cells. It's the same

20:05

with profit. you need profits to

20:07

exist? But you don't live for

20:09

profit. In itself it doesn't mean

20:11

anything. So that's what profits comes

20:13

in. And leaders understand that. But

20:15

I want to start with the

20:18

performance part. And this is also

20:20

what gets to your end part.

20:22

If there is no performance in

20:24

a company, then openly you won't

20:26

succeed. We've seen some companies being

20:28

very progressive on sustainability, trying to

20:31

be number one on anything to

20:33

win prices, but then if the

20:35

performance isn't there, you actually do

20:37

more damage to the changes that

20:39

we need. So the first thing

20:41

I always say that you need

20:43

is definitely the same skills that

20:46

every leader has had, high level

20:48

of ethics, hard work, intelligence. You

20:50

know, know, know how to run

20:52

a business by investing with discipline

20:54

in the things that matter. If

20:56

you make the wrong acquisitions or

20:59

you don't invest in innovation, anything

21:01

we talk will not mentor. I

21:03

actually have a very broad definition

21:05

of leadership, which is anybody who

21:07

touches someone else positively. So we

21:09

are all leaders, all of us

21:11

listening. And the first thing we

21:14

need to do is take care

21:16

of ourselves. We cannot be sustainable

21:18

leaders if we're not sustainable ourselves.

21:20

I am guided a little bit

21:22

by a very simple pyramid, which

21:24

starts with physical fitness. It's important

21:27

that we are physically fit. A

21:29

bigger and long capacity cuts you

21:31

more oxygen. Your brain uses 25%

21:33

of your oxygen. It just works

21:35

better. You're less tired, you're more

21:37

alert. And that's one of the

21:39

things I think that increase your

21:42

chances of success. For that reason

21:44

and Unilever we said, we have

21:46

100 people or more in the

21:48

company, we have a gym. We

21:50

have these left-lighter programs as we

21:52

call this, on changing dietary habits,

21:55

nutritional habits, etc. Then next to

21:57

the physical fitness, you get the

21:59

emotional fitness. If you go to

22:01

bed and sleep enough, which is

22:03

very important, you'll be less irritated.

22:05

I've had many times. flights, I

22:08

slept badly, and then you go

22:10

right away into meetings, you really

22:12

have to watch your temper or

22:14

not give the wrong signals. Emotional

22:16

fitness is very important. Then you

22:18

get to the mental fitness, your

22:20

ability to take time out to

22:23

pause. to get new oxygen in,

22:25

to read books, to meet friends.

22:27

When some people say, I'm working

22:29

day and night, it's not healthy.

22:31

You do need to do other

22:33

things to get other ideas in.

22:36

And then last one not least,

22:38

the last part of the pyramid

22:40

is spiritual, or some people might

22:42

call it purpose. I was always

22:44

very fortunate to have a strong

22:46

values driven and purpose driven organization.

22:48

So that's the ultimate part of

22:51

the permit. So take care of

22:53

that else and all these dimensions

22:55

and you'll be a much more

22:57

resilient leader. You'll also be a

22:59

better friend or family member. That's

23:01

important to all of us. So

23:04

but on top of that your

23:06

chances of success are so much

23:08

higher. if you are a long-term

23:10

multi-stakeholder purpose-driven company. There's no question

23:12

about it. It just opens so

23:14

many more doors of possibilities. And

23:16

the same bifocation that we've seen

23:19

in business, where the shorter-term shareholder-focused

23:21

business models are not doing so

23:23

well, and the longer-term multi-stakeholder visits

23:25

are doing better, during COVID, the

23:27

leaders that excelled this high level

23:29

of humanity, humility. a confession if

23:32

you want to, our empathy, that

23:34

have a strong purpose, understood the

23:36

power of partnership, were willing to

23:38

think intergenerational, were systemic thinkers to

23:40

be able to take that complexity

23:42

that is out there and distill

23:45

it to some simple steps and

23:47

move forward. Why? Because these leaders

23:49

instilled in a very uncertain time

23:51

with many pressures on everybody instilled

23:53

the level of trust. The reality

23:55

it is, as we've seen with

23:57

COVID, the countries that did better

24:00

during COVID, and the leaders also...

24:02

at a higher level of trust.

24:04

Iceland, Norway, fentanyl, Denmark, New Zealand,

24:06

and interestingly they were all run

24:08

by women. So not to flatter

24:10

you, but I think what any

24:13

of these skills that are needed

24:15

is more given to the female

24:17

race than the male race and

24:19

we have to work on there.

24:21

to get there. One of the

24:23

things I did when I came

24:25

to Unilever, I came in from

24:28

the outside like you did, but

24:30

sometimes unattended with also a little

24:32

bit more of a challenge. I

24:34

had a very diverse war of

24:36

six white Dutch males and six

24:38

white British males could they disagree.

24:41

But to me, the definition of

24:43

diversity was quite different. So I

24:45

insisted when I came that we

24:47

would get a fully gendered diverse

24:49

board. We had three black African-African,

24:51

two from Africa, one from the

24:53

US. We had two Chinese. We

24:56

had wonderful people. And I think

24:58

it is that bored that we

25:00

put together. that helped us, I

25:02

think, give us confidence in what

25:04

we were doing or strengthen our

25:06

responsible business models. And it very

25:09

much gave me, probably myself also,

25:11

a different style of leadership than

25:13

I might have otherwise helped. Absolutely.

25:15

And I think you said it,

25:17

frankly, when I looked back at

25:19

my career and like you fall,

25:22

I'm obviously very proud and, you

25:24

know, happy to look at many

25:26

legacies, but at the same time

25:28

I'm always dissatisfied and happy with

25:30

the DE&I, I'm leaving behind because

25:32

it's complicated right to really run

25:34

in a mandate and drive it.

25:37

I think this is the first

25:39

time I'm doing it in my

25:41

career this way, is we are

25:43

positioning not around the stats of

25:45

the diversity, but rather bringing inclusion

25:47

and equality in the hearts of

25:50

what we do. That's what we

25:52

do and diversity is what you

25:54

see. So being a net positive

25:56

company to come back to the

25:58

book is about being sustainable

26:01

of course, but as you say

26:03

it's also about addressing equity and

26:05

inequality is something very close to

26:07

my heart and your heart and

26:09

I know or indeed equity, inclusion

26:11

and diversity with the same level

26:13

of urgency. I know your children

26:15

and grandchildren are very important to

26:17

you. What kind of word you

26:20

hope we will leave behind for

26:22

them and what type of grandpa

26:24

are you for? Well I don't

26:26

know I'm definitely a grandpa that

26:28

spoils them and my children now

26:30

are mad at me because I

26:32

can hand them over again to

26:34

them after I spoiled it. But

26:36

I'm tremendously proud I have three

26:38

boys and they're happily married one

26:40

to someone from Spain one to

26:42

someone from Singapore and one to

26:44

someone from New Jersey so my

26:46

house is the United Nations. It

26:48

takes wonderful grandchildren, three boys and

26:50

three girls and we're obviously mighty

26:52

proud of them. And I fortunately

26:54

not have a farm outside of

26:56

London, so every weekend, if I

26:58

can, and I'm here, we get

27:01

together and we like the outdoors.

27:03

We ensure that they don't get

27:05

the drug to their computers or

27:07

strange things and talk to other

27:09

people that you don't have the

27:11

control on. It's fun to have

27:13

them and it's also fun to

27:15

hand them back to their parents

27:17

when you want them. And this

27:19

is universal by the way. So

27:21

talking about going back to nature

27:23

and getting back to the human

27:25

side, I know that your life

27:27

includes a lot of music as

27:29

your wife is an accomplished chiro

27:31

player. I know my son is

27:33

violinist. Are you great musical lover

27:35

too? Do you play? Do you

27:37

listen to music only? Do you

27:39

do both? You know, I've never

27:42

confessed to her, I was grading

27:44

her at university. I didn't have

27:46

any money. And so we were

27:48

ushering at music hall to get

27:50

free to the concerts. And I

27:52

just went because I loved her,

27:54

but I hated classical music. I

27:56

was one of these really, you

27:58

know, wild, young people in the

28:00

60s and 70s. And so I

28:02

had to pretend that I liked

28:04

classical music. the more I, we've

28:06

been married for 44 years now

28:08

and he has two trios and

28:10

plays in a symphony and over

28:12

the years I've actually come to

28:14

love classical music and she plays

28:16

the cello which is a beautiful

28:18

instrument. You know, so. I'm very

28:20

blessed and but she has a

28:22

broader perspective I think he brings

28:25

me to other forms of art

28:27

yesterday we were in a theater

28:29

she brings me to different people

28:31

already earlier in my career that

28:33

gave me a wider vision and

28:35

better understanding of diversity and and

28:37

now we both run some of

28:39

our foundations and

28:41

monvers is still in the arts.

28:43

So because a lot of the

28:45

liberal arts has been cut out,

28:48

music has been cut out, and

28:50

many of these things that we

28:52

really need to produce the right

28:54

leaders, if anything in this world,

28:57

trees, and the arts and music

28:59

plays in a very important role

29:01

to create, I think, holistic leaders

29:03

that we need for the future.

29:06

Absolutely, and we should be inspired

29:08

by other spaces like art and

29:10

music. Well, thank you so much

29:12

for joining me, Paul. I think

29:15

I enjoy it personally because I

29:17

know a lot about you. I

29:19

followed you. You were an inspiration.

29:21

Your leadership is such an inspiration

29:24

for us all as we strive

29:26

to achieve the power. of that

29:28

the end, the A&D, which is

29:30

our future and we can do

29:33

both and make our businesses both

29:35

sustainable and profitable, bold and unpathetic.

29:37

So thank you for this fascinating

29:39

discussion. Likewise. Thank you so much

29:41

for joining us today. For more

29:44

information or to listen to other

29:46

episodes, visit our website and if

29:48

you like this podcast, don't forget

29:50

to subscribe. Until next