0:03

Hello everyone and welcome back to the

0:06

Android Central podcast. My name is Shruti

0:08

Shaker and I am the Editor-in-Chief here

0:10

at Android Central and I

0:12

have just Nick Sartrick with me today.

0:14

Hello, hello. Hey, we got something

0:16

cool, huh? We do. So

0:21

Nick and I had the

0:23

most amazing, amazing opportunity to

0:25

speak with Lucy Lube, who

0:28

is the voice of a new

0:30

VR game called The Pirate Queen.

0:33

So we had a chance to talk with her

0:36

and we also got a chance to speak with

0:38

Eloise Singer, who is the, she

0:40

is the game director,

0:43

correct Nick? Is that her exact title?

0:45

Yeah. So we literally

0:47

just got off the call with her and it was honestly

0:49

just like a 10, 12 minute

0:53

conversation. But it was

0:55

so absolutely amazing to be

0:57

able to speak to a game

0:59

developer, creator, director, and

1:02

as well as a very

1:04

iconic actress talking about the

1:06

VR space, this

1:08

game in particular, and how unique it

1:10

is in comparison to so many other

1:12

VR games. Nick, tell us a little

1:15

bit about The Pirate Queen, what

1:17

the game is about, and about this

1:20

interview because it was, you

1:23

guys are going to hear it shortly. We'll

1:25

stitch it into this intro

1:27

that we have. But what's

1:29

really special is that, at least

1:31

for me, it was really cool

1:33

that this is not only a

1:36

story-based VR game, but it's also

1:38

led by women. It's

1:41

changing the trajectory of VR gaming

1:43

to include more women and you've

1:45

played it as well. So

1:47

take it away. Let's talk a little bit about the game,

1:49

what you thought of the interview, and some of the

1:51

things that Lucy and Eloise spoke about. Great.

1:54

Okay. Yep. So

1:57

this is on Quest. That's what I played on

1:59

in Quest 3. Lucy stars as

2:01

Cheng Xi, who is

2:04

the Pirate Queen. She was the woman

2:06

who led the largest and most successful

2:09

pirate fleet in history. I

2:11

think for me, this story was really interesting

2:13

because sort

2:16

of as she says in the interview, a lot of my

2:18

thought of pirates is always like Blackbeard and

2:21

I don't even know whatever else I know

2:23

about pirates historically. But this

2:26

one is a VR narrative

2:28

adventure game. So you're not

2:30

going to be doing lots of sword

2:32

fighting or crazy things like that. This

2:34

is mostly focused. Is that kind

2:37

of unique? I mean,

2:39

are most VR games hack

2:42

and slashy type of games? I would

2:44

say so. Most VR games are

2:46

definitely focused on action. So you're

2:48

shooting something, you're hitting something, you're

2:51

throwing something. It's typically

2:53

very inertia based, I

2:55

guess. And

2:58

one of the things that Lucy was talking about

3:00

was when you're in the game, you actually can,

3:03

because it's so immersive and when

3:05

you use your hands, it's

3:08

basically her hands, like the

3:10

Pirate Queen's hands. And so you

3:12

can see that, but because it's

3:14

a female character, your hands are

3:17

actually like a woman's hands. And

3:22

one of the points that

3:24

Eloise was talking about was

3:27

how she was told by people in

3:29

the industry that, oh, this is going to

3:31

detract people from playing it because their hands

3:33

are going to look like women's hands. They're

3:35

going to have jewelry on their hands. And

3:38

Eloise was just like, no, this

3:40

is the game. This is what I want to play.

3:42

This is what I want to make. And what did

3:44

you think about that? And also, how was your experience

3:47

playing it? I mean, you did talk about that a little bit in the

3:49

interview, but I'd love to hear your experience

3:51

about it. I

3:53

really enjoyed the sort of role-playing that

3:55

you go through in this because, yeah,

3:57

like, the first thing you typically do

4:00

And I said this in the interview is you look

4:02

at your hands in VR That's you know, you're what

4:04

you're interacting with everything with and a

4:06

lot of times hands in VR are pretty androgynous

4:09

maybe they're male I like

4:12

You I would say that most VR games

4:14

don't put a lot of time and effort

4:16

into the hands Whereas in this game you

4:19

look at the hands and you're like dang like look

4:21

at the skin detail Like like she said with the

4:23

rings and stuff They

4:26

spent time thinking about how

4:29

the player was going to look at this world

4:31

and interact in it and that

4:33

played a huge part in you

4:36

feeling like the character and Her

4:38

sort of narrating the story to herself in your

4:40

head and I thought that

4:42

was cool too because you know You're going

4:44

through this particular night. It focuses on one

4:47

night that the night that she rose to

4:49

power And then

4:51

everything that was going through her head at the time Everything

4:54

happening with her life at the time and in the game

4:57

In particular, I liked that you could

5:00

pick up objects and she would tell

5:02

you about them. Oh cool so

5:05

you a lot of the game is Focused

5:07

around like I guess escape rooms for lack

5:10

of a better term where you're in a

5:12

room you have to find a certain thing

5:14

you find keys to unlock drawers and stuff

5:16

and as

5:19

you again pick up objects you learn

5:21

the stories behind them and their historical

5:23

significance and Like there's even this

5:25

one one cool puzzle We're like you have

5:27

to smell different jars of things and like

5:30

it has this did it did you feel?

5:32

Like did you kind of feel like you could smell

5:34

the game? I thought because I

5:37

like one of them is a jar of black tea and I

5:39

was like, oh man I want to go make a jar, you

5:41

know a cup of tea now I

5:43

love that. I love that. It was just

5:45

some really cool interactivity things that I feel

5:48

like Too

5:50

many VR games kind of forget about and that's that's kind

5:53

of the magic of VR is Picking

5:55

up objects grabbing things pulling levers, you

5:57

know, like that sort of stuff is really

6:00

really cool and this game highlights

6:02

that aspect of it very well. Well,

6:05

this kind of reminds me of a conversation

6:07

we had, like, I think last year about,

6:09

you know, it'd be really cool if like

6:11

a Zelda Breath of the Wild

6:13

came into VR, but Zelda is, I mean, it

6:16

is open world, but there is a story in

6:18

it, right? It's not a hack and slash game.

6:20

Right. And I think this

6:22

game would, is going

6:24

to pave the way for more story-based narrative

6:27

VR games, which is very exciting.

6:30

Um, we didn't get to ask them one question,

6:32

but I'd love to get to know what your

6:34

thoughts are on this because it's super interesting.

6:36

This entire game is based on a real

6:39

character, a real person. Um,

6:42

it has a lot of history

6:44

behind the game, um, dating back

6:46

to, to many, many, many, many

6:48

years ago. And so they

6:50

obviously had to do a lot of research. They

6:52

had a lot of experts and specialists come in

6:54

and making sure that, you know, the

6:56

graphics were, um, accurate to the

6:59

time of whenever this was taking place,

7:01

making sure that the storyline was, was

7:03

in line. And to the

7:05

thing that I thought that was, that, that I think

7:07

is really interesting and, and you were going to

7:09

ask this question is, is there

7:11

a possibility of making more games

7:14

like this in the future, but it's history-based

7:16

and actually using the, using

7:18

this medium or this platform to

7:20

help teach students in

7:22

classrooms? Um, I think

7:25

that's such a fantastic question. And I'd love to know your opinion

7:27

because I know you have a son and you

7:29

know, you, um, love playing

7:31

VR games with him. Do you, what do

7:33

you think about that? I would love

7:35

to see more stuff like this because I know

7:38

as a kid, I don't know

7:41

that I was necessarily the most interested in history,

7:43

especially the way it's often presented in schools. You

7:45

know, you just, you read from a

7:47

book, you maybe talk about it a

7:49

little in class. Maybe the subject

7:51

interests you and you'll learn more about it

7:54

than other, you know, historical events, but I

7:56

would say for the most part, Learning

7:58

some of this stuff from a book. Is not

8:00

necessarily the most memorable the her whereas

8:03

going through it this way and interacting

8:05

with it and. Am. Having

8:07

somebody tell you a tail. Almost.

8:10

Feel like how history used to be

8:13

passed down. Where. Are you know,

8:15

article that around a campfire? Whatever. And they

8:17

would tell stories and. And. This

8:19

this kind of narrative. Ah

8:21

il dollar. Did. It has.

8:23

That kind of feel to it and I really.

8:26

Love. That idea of being able

8:28

to learn. Through. Stories.

8:30

And. I know I'd prefer my wife. I

8:32

think our favorite types of books are historical

8:35

fiction where they take place. During.

8:37

A certain event at a certain place and

8:39

maybe the characters are fictitious are. You.

8:42

Know, like like in this game it's based

8:44

on a real character and real events but

8:46

obviously like the stuff that happened in between

8:48

we probably don't actually know. some of the

8:50

is inferred and that's with a historical fiction

8:53

comes from. And. I like that concept

8:55

the last. I love the I.

8:57

When I was a kid I used to

8:59

place on a lot of Pc games and

9:01

ah there was one game that I loved

9:03

playing as called were in the World As.

9:05

Commons and all young part of us. But

9:07

there was a specific version of that

9:09

where it's due to different time periods

9:12

in the world. the like ancient Egypt

9:14

on when like yeah, the first on

9:16

when Neil Armstrong won interface like ah

9:18

when they told and made his first

9:20

symphony or whatever like know with all

9:22

the building a lot like interact with

9:24

people of that time and it was

9:27

a so much fun. Like I learned

9:29

so much about history and I totally

9:31

agree with you. like when you learn

9:33

it in a more interactive way it

9:35

sticks with you more in. A few

9:37

have so much more fun in the proper

9:39

felt. The I fully agree with you

9:41

I I I hope that this will get used as

9:43

a way to the have. Young. kids

9:46

learn i think this is really amazing

9:48

but in other was talking we're going

9:50

to what you listen to the interview

9:52

which a mirage what a dream life

9:55

lot of privilege it was so wonderful

9:57

on but we're going to end the

9:59

podcast and you guys listen to it. So

10:01

before we end it, Nick, what was

10:03

the thing that made you happy this last week? Well,

10:06

I'll just stick with the VR theme. I've

10:08

been playing more VR games with my son

10:10

than ever, which is just, it's

10:13

so much fun. Like it's fun

10:15

to not necessarily play

10:17

pretend, you know? It's like, that's something I feel

10:19

like you do when they're real little, but now

10:21

it's like a different way of bonding with him

10:24

and going through different adventures

10:26

and different things. And it's just,

10:29

it's a cool new way to have

10:31

quality time with him. I

10:33

love that. And you can

10:35

change your answer when I say mine if

10:37

you want, but I know we're not supposed

10:40

to talk about work, but what a privilege

10:42

to speak with Lucy Liu and

10:44

Eloise Singer. I mean, they were

10:46

both so, that truly did

10:48

just make my entire month,

10:51

week, whatever. Yeah, for sure. It's

10:54

really, really nice when you get to speak

10:56

to people who are so humble and like

10:58

they don't make you feel anxious or,

11:01

you know, any other way. And it was

11:03

really funny because Nick and I were talking

11:06

about how neither of us are gonna go

11:08

on camera because we're not recording ourselves. And

11:11

I literally looked a hot mess because I'm

11:13

in the process of moving and Nick, his

11:16

basement, he felt uncomfortable because it was messy.

11:19

And the minute we get onto the Zoom

11:21

call, Lucy is like, are you

11:23

guys gonna have your cameras on? And

11:25

it was just so cute. And

11:27

she was like, I just wanna see your faces. And you

11:29

really, you know what? It was nice. It

11:32

was nice. It really just feel like just talking

11:35

to your friend. And that

11:37

was really fun because she was, at

11:39

least for me, and just such

11:42

an inspiration growing up to

11:45

see her play such iconic

11:47

roles in movies and just

11:49

speaking to Eloise and being a

11:51

woman and the things that she's

11:53

trying to do, it just feels really good.

11:56

So that was definitely

11:58

a highlight for me. Okay,

12:01

that being said, wherever

12:03

you are, whether it's the morning, afternoon,

12:05

or night, thank you so much for

12:07

taking the time and listening to us.

12:09

And we really, really hope you enjoy

12:11

the interview about the

12:13

Pirate Queen. We'll talk to you

12:16

guys later. Bye. See

12:18

ya. So,

12:22

Nick, are you excited? We have, we're

12:25

with Eloise and Lucy right now, which

12:27

is so exciting. So thank you so

12:29

much for being here with us. Nick,

12:32

why don't you start and take away with some

12:34

of those questions? Alright, sure. So,

12:37

I guess first I just wanted to know, like, have

12:40

you been able to play through the game? Did

12:42

you enjoy anything in particular about the game itself?

12:45

Thanks for having us on the show. We're really excited

12:48

to be here. I

12:50

have to say that Eloise has developed this very

12:53

intricate puzzle of the game that is

12:57

not one of those shoot-em-up games, which is

12:59

what I appreciate so much about it, and

13:03

that it's based on a character that existed

13:05

in the 1800s. She's

13:07

a badass. She's an

13:09

incredible badass. She's a pirate. She's

13:13

a pirate, which is, she

13:15

was one of the most powerful pirates

13:18

in the world, more so than- Black-up-head.

13:21

And she commanded 70,000 people during the lead-up to

13:23

the Opium Wars, which was quite a

13:26

fleet. Yeah. Yeah. I

13:29

do think that the game, you know, for someone who's not as

13:32

accustomed to playing VR at first, was a little bit

13:34

disorienting. But I think

13:37

as you play, I can really see why people

13:39

are so obsessed with being in

13:41

that experience, because it is immersive,

13:43

but it's also a very personal

13:45

experience, because when you watch a

13:47

movie, you're watching characters, and you

13:49

can feel like you can relate to them,

13:52

and you love the experience, and

13:54

your body is feeling certain things like,

13:56

oh my God, excitement or tension or,

13:58

you know, the thrills. When you're in

14:00

the actual experience itself,

14:02

it's very different because you are a character

14:05

in that. And that's

14:07

something that I found was

14:10

quite different and strange,

14:14

you know, because your

14:16

hands are the hands that are in the

14:18

game itself, but they're not really your hands. So this is

14:20

a very strange experience. And

14:23

Eloise, I think you created something really

14:25

significant by being so accurate to

14:28

the production design

14:30

of that time. And, you know, I was

14:33

saying earlier that it also feels like

14:35

it's not just the visual

14:37

and the sound. It's more like you almost

14:39

feel like you can smell and feel the

14:41

temperature of that space as well. I

14:44

think what's so amazing is Lucy says

14:46

you are literally stepping into the shoes

14:48

of the pirate queen. And that's an

14:50

experience that you can't have in

14:52

any other medium. Like that just happens in

14:54

VL, which is so extraordinary. One

14:56

thing that we found when we first started developing the

14:59

pirate queen is female hands

15:01

in VR didn't actually exist at

15:03

the time when we started developing

15:05

the game. So you have male

15:07

hands and you have generic hands, but

15:09

you don't have female hands. And

15:12

that's quite telling right there. Yeah, it shows

15:14

that the space is designed for a certain

15:17

person. So we created

15:19

these hands from scratch and

15:21

it meant that we could

15:24

create really dirty fingernails and we could

15:26

create scars. And we designed bespoke rings

15:28

that we put on her hands as

15:30

well to really amplify the fact

15:32

that she was the pirate queen. And

15:35

interestingly, when we first began, we actually had

15:37

some kickback of people saying, oh,

15:39

if you put rings on hands, then

15:42

it's going to make male players not

15:44

want to play the game. And

15:47

we obviously lent into it and really

15:49

wanted to showcase the fact that, you

15:51

know, she was the pirate queen and

15:53

she was this phenomenal figure. So yeah,

15:55

it definitely feels like we were breaking

15:57

new ground. Yeah. And that actually

15:59

leads us. right into the next couple of

16:01

questions. And I'm so glad that you brought

16:04

that up. So Lucy, I know you've obviously,

16:06

I mean, who doesn't know you, you played

16:08

some incredibly iconic female roles in Kill Bill,

16:10

Charlie's Angels, you've also voiced for Kung Fu

16:13

Panda. The team said that

16:15

the pirate queen will be expanding into film, TV,

16:17

and graphic novel. Why did you choose to start

16:19

with VR first? And

16:22

then I also want to lead into

16:24

what you guys were just talking about,

16:26

about how the VR space is such

16:28

a male-dominated space. How did

16:30

it make you feel to be playing such

16:32

an iconic pirate, an iconic role

16:35

in this VR game? And do you

16:37

hope that that will make more women

16:40

create more characters or play more VR

16:42

games? Wonderful questions.

16:44

I'm going to start with, you

16:47

know, I think there's only about 20% of female leads in VR

16:51

in games in general. And, you know,

16:54

that explains why Eloise and

16:56

Singer Studios had to create,

16:58

you know, female hands. I

17:02

think there's a, you know, a

17:04

disparity between what people think they

17:06

want and what people are willing to try.

17:10

And if you don't put it out there,

17:12

they're never going to know. And it's not

17:14

about the whole idea of an immersive

17:17

experience is to be

17:20

immersed in something other than where we are. So

17:23

it's about escapism. And that's also

17:25

why entertainment is, and

17:27

has been, and especially during the pandemic was

17:29

so popular. You know, you want to sort

17:32

of get away and be somewhere

17:34

else. Or

17:36

find something that relates to you that you can

17:38

experience so you don't feel alone. So

17:41

for me, I can't

17:44

answer the question about why VR

17:46

first, because Eloise, and I'll just

17:48

tip it just a smidge, you

17:51

know, she started this idea of

17:53

the Pirate Queen as

17:55

a film. And because

17:58

the pandemic hit, she then pivoted. towards

18:01

thinking about outside the box and then

18:04

creating this experience, which

18:06

is actually harder in some ways

18:08

because it's 360 degree, as

18:11

well as the technology and the, I

18:13

don't know, I think production value

18:15

when you're doing a film, you at

18:18

least, you know, there's one side where the

18:20

crew is and then there's the other side where you're filming. And

18:23

in this world, it's actually much harder

18:25

to create those visuals.

18:28

And I take my hat off to her and her team

18:30

because I think

18:35

it's a breakthrough in, you know,

18:38

understanding that there are other female heroes

18:40

and heroines out there that do

18:43

exist and that were forgotten. And

18:45

she's not the only pirate queen. There's

18:47

other pirate queens from different cultures, countries,

18:51

but also that she's the most

18:53

powerful pirate queen and it wasn't

18:55

Blackbeard. I do think that's something

18:57

that people would be blown away by. I think, you

18:59

know, much like a

19:01

lot of stereotypes out there, that idea

19:04

of the peg leg and the, you

19:07

know, the patch and the, you

19:09

know, the sword and the

19:11

pirate and this breaks that and it's

19:13

actually, because it's based on

19:15

real life, it actually creates

19:19

a whole new genre, frankly,

19:21

for pirates. I

19:23

think Eloise, I'm going to hand it over to her

19:25

about, you know, how it started

19:27

as a film and then, you know, veered

19:29

off into this. And it's clear

19:31

that it's a franchise

19:33

because, you know, with graphic novels, you

19:36

can really go the distance

19:38

with the visuals. And a

19:40

lot of things, obviously, as we know, start

19:43

from material like for

19:45

Marvel or for DC. And I think

19:48

there's something very exciting and almost

19:50

obvious about how this can become a franchise

19:52

and is a franchise. I

19:55

mean, Lucy says it so beautifully. We started developing it as a

19:57

film to begin with and because of that, we're going to be

19:59

doing a lot of things. pandemic, we didn't know

20:01

what the future was going to hold.

20:03

And so we then teamed up with

20:05

a chat called Dr. Dave Ranjard, who

20:07

used to be the head of PlayStation

20:10

Studios in London, and started developing the

20:12

Pirate Queen as a VR game. And I went

20:14

to Dave and said, you know, I think this could

20:16

be amazing, the opportunity to climb

20:18

up the side of pirate ships

20:20

and row through treacherous water and

20:23

navigate through moonlit cabins. I mean,

20:25

what better experience than to do that

20:28

in VR. And the more that we

20:30

started thinking about it, the more it made

20:32

sense to develop it as a VR experience. So

20:35

it definitely was a pivot.

20:38

And I'm so proud that we did because it

20:41

has been way more of

20:43

a challenge to develop something that is a

20:46

bit like 3D chess, you never know what a player

20:48

is going to do in VR, and you always have

20:50

to kind of anticipate and that as

20:52

a storyteller is really, really exciting. I

20:54

think also the idea that is

20:56

quite remarkable is that, you know,

20:59

people are so used to combat

21:01

and weaponry and, you know,

21:03

explosion and damage. And

21:06

I can see why that's exciting. But in some ways, when

21:08

you do create something for

21:10

VR that is not that it's actually harder,

21:12

because what are you going to do? What are

21:14

you going to do to excite the player and

21:16

to have them continue playing the game? So

21:19

it's just it's special because

21:21

it's not that. Yeah, I

21:23

think we do something that's a lot

21:25

more innovative and we lean into the idea that this

21:28

was set in history and these puzzles are puzzles that

21:30

are inspired by history. And we

21:33

are the first VR game that is then being

21:35

launched into a franchise. I mean, you have mainstream

21:38

console games like The Last of Us

21:40

or The Witcher, which you can see

21:42

have blossomed into TV series and films,

21:45

but this has never happened with VR

21:47

before. So to be at the forefront of that

21:49

and to be paving the way is really exciting

21:51

as well. Very much

21:53

like the Pyro Queen. Like the Pyro Queen. I'm going to

21:55

dub you the Pyro Queen of modern day. I

22:00

look great. You're the London Fire.

22:02

The London Fire. It's great. Yeah,

22:06

I, and actually what you were saying about Hands

22:08

earlier was I think the first thing I noticed

22:10

when I went in, because I think a lot

22:12

of people when they go into VR, they look

22:14

at their hands first, it's kind of a schtick

22:16

in VR trailers too, right? So,

22:18

seeing that and having that like extra immersion

22:20

factor was, I felt really cool to me.

22:23

How does that feel for you when you looked at

22:25

your hands? It made me

22:27

feel like I was playing a character, right? Rather

22:29

than just, oh, it's me in a game again.

22:32

Yeah. Just sort of doing the same kind

22:34

of thing. And I guess in that regard,

22:36

like the, this is not a hack and slash

22:39

game. This is a narrative adventure. And I thought

22:41

that was also really cool.

22:45

I wanted to know like how you sort

22:47

of arrived at that design and what made

22:49

you decide on that style over just, hey,

22:51

we're going to fight a bunch of sword

22:53

battles or, you know, whatever you might come

22:55

up with, right? Yeah. I

22:57

mean, I just watched Buckler's just

22:59

in the beginning. It

23:02

very much was our intention from the start. And

23:04

honestly, it really, we wanted to

23:06

go in creating experience that we

23:09

could share with parents and say, listen,

23:11

your kids can say this and there's

23:13

not any violence in it. You're not

23:15

going to see them stabbing and killing

23:17

someone else. And because I think when

23:19

I was growing up, if I had

23:21

known that the most powerful pirate in

23:23

history was a woman, it would have hugely

23:25

changed my perception of gender roles and gender

23:27

dynamics. And I really wanted that for the

23:30

next generation. So

23:32

it was very much one of

23:34

the pillars that we started with when we designed

23:36

the experience. And it definitely was

23:38

a creative risk. But it's

23:40

something that I'm so proud of and proud

23:42

that our team really backed and got behind

23:44

because we have created something that is a

23:46

lot more nuanced and it doesn't mean into

23:48

those tropes or cliches. And

23:51

instead, we've created something that

23:53

is about a really complicated

23:55

character who is very multifaceted

23:57

and interesting. And The

24:00

detail that we've created in that ship,

24:02

and we've really lent into the historical

24:04

accuracy, means that you can navigate that

24:06

space, and it's the only space

24:09

in the world, really, that you can step

24:11

back into 19th century China. So, Elie, you

24:13

have to tell them about how

24:16

when they had first developed

24:18

the ship and created it, they went

24:21

and did some research and referenced experts,

24:24

and then they said, oh, wait a minute, the

24:26

ship is all wrong. They're like, what? What do

24:28

you mean? Can you guys tell

24:30

them the story about that? So what

24:33

happened was we started

24:35

building the ships in any

24:38

sort of normal human. We

24:40

thought that ships were built

24:42

with wood and nails. And so we built

24:44

all of these ships with wood and

24:46

nails, and we sent it to our

24:48

researchers, because for this project, we brought

24:51

on researchers and sensitivity

24:53

checkers and historical accuracy

24:56

specialists. And so we sent them the

24:59

build for the ship, and

25:01

they came back and they were like, oh,

25:03

well, actually, we didn't use nails in China

25:05

at that time. We used dovetail joints. So

25:08

our artists had to go away and take

25:10

out every single nail from all of them.

25:12

Oh my goodness. Wow. Instead, we're

25:14

going for the dovetail joints, but it's just a

25:16

beautiful example of that you can never assume.

25:19

And that level of detail really

25:21

is what brings a game and

25:23

an experience alive, and that

25:26

was exactly what we sort of started with and

25:29

our attention all along. And so to see it

25:31

kind of come all the way and come to

25:33

fruition with so much detail has been really rewarding.

25:35

I think most people would be like, you know what?

25:37

It's not on the budget. Forget it. Let's move on.

25:40

But I think that's what's so wonderful about this, is

25:42

that you really cared enough and

25:44

were sensitive enough to do that. And to know that and

25:46

to even reach out and try

25:49

to be as historically accurate, I think when

25:51

you're building a game that's not based in

25:53

history like this one, you

25:55

can sort of be like, you know what? Put

25:58

it in the publicity budget. But it's... I

26:00

think that's what's so, I don't know,

26:03

that makes it even more important.

26:05

Special, very special. We're

26:07

at time, but I want to ask you

26:09

our question. I have to ask it because

26:11

that's tradition for our podcast. What was the

26:14

thing that made you happy this past week

26:16

for both of you? Being

26:18

in New York, of course. It's one of my favorite places

26:20

in the world. I

26:23

introduced my son to Star Wars this week. Wow.

26:27

So the first one that was like 1977. He's

26:29

like, what is this? That's great.

26:33

I was like, oh no. Trust

26:35

me. Thanks.