0:04

This is Antik,

0:07

the Atari 8-bit

0:09

podcast. I'm Kay

0:11

Savitz. Nick Kennedy

0:13

is the creator of

0:16

SIO to PC,

0:18

the hardware and

0:21

software combination that

0:24

allowed Atari 8-bit

0:27

computer users to

0:29

use a PC.

0:32

In 1989, this was unprecedented, a

0:34

new way to connect the

0:36

little Atari to the bigger

0:38

world, to the relatively massive

0:40

storage and speed of a

0:43

computer running PC-Doss. For the

0:45

first time, Atari could use

0:47

a PC as storage, RAM disk,

0:49

and printer. Nick also created the

0:51

ATR file format, which quickly

0:54

became the standard for

0:56

using virtual floppy disks on

0:58

Atari emulators. Nick also created 1050

1:00

to PC, a cable that let

1:02

you connect an Atari floppy drive

1:05

directly to a PC, and Ataricom,

1:07

a less well-known utility that allowed

1:09

two Atari computers to communicate with

1:12

each other using the SAO and

1:14

joystick ports. And he created Atari-based

1:17

amateur radio tools, a terminal program

1:19

for packet radio, and Morris Code

1:21

Gear software, which he and I

1:24

talked about in detail in a

1:26

previous interview. This interview took

1:28

place on November 1st, 2024.

1:30

A video version of this interview

1:33

is also available on YouTube

1:35

and Internet Archive. Unbelievably,

1:38

it's been almost two years since

1:40

we last talked. Really? Yeah. Oh,

1:42

I was thinking it was one, but

1:44

yeah, it had been a long

1:46

time. January 21st, 2023. Okay. According

1:48

to my notes. Now we're almost,

1:51

we're heading into 2025, so. That's

1:53

right, yeah. So we dealt with the ham

1:55

radio stuff pretty well last time, but

1:57

there's all the other world of things

1:59

you did. backtrack a little bit.

2:02

Tell me, can you tell me

2:04

how, how and when you got

2:06

your first Atari machine? Yeah, I

2:08

think it was around 1982 or

2:11

83. I was in Jefferson City,

2:13

Missouri, and of course, I was,

2:15

well, I'd like to say I

2:17

wanted to learn complicated language and

2:20

do great things, but actually we.

2:22

the family and I would go

2:24

to a pizza place and they

2:27

had a arcade and it had

2:29

asteroids on it by Atari and

2:31

it was like amazing and we

2:33

played it. Of course it had

2:36

vector graphics, it's a little different

2:38

turns out than the one on

2:40

800. Anyway, I start seeing the

2:42

Atari's advertised and of course they

2:45

had been apple and others for

2:47

a while. They're rather expensive so

2:49

it took a while to work

2:51

my way up to doing it.

2:54

But you know you... you tell

2:56

all these big lies like well

2:58

I'm going to balance my checkbook

3:00

or something stupid like that but

3:03

you really just want a toy

3:05

to play with. So I did

3:07

buy that thing and then you

3:09

know the cassette drive and enough

3:12

memory to fill it out the

3:14

48K you know the whole mess

3:16

must have come up to 1200

3:19

bucks or so I don't know

3:21

but I bought or else it

3:23

came with a basic cartridge and

3:25

when I was playing with that

3:28

I thought I thought This is

3:30

so much better than Fortran was

3:32

in college, because in Fortran you

3:34

punch these cards, you put them

3:37

on a table, you come back

3:39

the next day, you get a

3:41

printout and it says you made

3:43

an error, fix these cards, so

3:46

you fix it, you come back

3:48

again the next day. So I

3:50

thought programming is not fun, but

3:52

once I got into the interactive

3:55

thing where I had a keyboard

3:57

and video, you know, I started

3:59

getting into that. And then I'd

4:02

read about... You read about in

4:04

the magazines about assembly language and

4:06

I don't know I may be

4:08

repeating myself from earlier talk I

4:11

probably am. But it just seemed

4:13

really exotic, like kind of a

4:15

priesthood. If you could break into

4:17

that, that would really be something

4:20

above just programming and basic, which

4:22

is fun too. But I did

4:24

get an assembler cartridge. I think

4:26

one of your programs or some

4:29

other did an interview, I think,

4:31

with the person who developed that

4:33

cartridge. But anyway. Yeah, Steve Laro,

4:35

you might be thinking of. Yeah,

4:38

that's fascinating. But anyway, I did

4:40

eventually get going on that. And

4:42

then I, you mentioned, we talked

4:45

about it last time, I did

4:47

this huge keyer program for ham

4:49

radio. And that really grounded me

4:51

in 6502 programming and also in

4:54

the Atari hardware. I learned by

4:56

doing thing. And by the time

4:58

I was done, I was done.

5:00

I was done by doing thing.

5:03

And by the time I was

5:05

done, I was done. I was

5:07

pretty good at it. I was

5:09

pretty good at it. I was

5:12

pretty good at it. That's a

5:14

very long answer to a short

5:16

question. Great. So I don't know

5:18

what order you created things. I

5:21

have a list of things that

5:23

you made. The AMAC assembler, S-I-O-T-C-C-T-R-File

5:25

format, a couple other things. So

5:28

do you remember which, what came

5:30

first? Okay. Now just to clarify

5:32

the assembler, I was just promoting.

5:34

the AMAC assembler. It's an Atari

5:37

product and you know I used

5:39

the assembler editor cartridge for a

5:41

while but it had some limitations

5:43

despite being a really great device

5:46

so you know and I'd read

5:48

about you need a macro assembler

5:50

if you want to be serious

5:52

you know so I bought this

5:55

thing and it had some serious

5:57

shortcomings it had some bugs in

5:59

it. If you wrote a macro

6:01

that was over I never did

6:04

really figure it out, but maybe

6:06

10 or 20 lines, the whole

6:08

program would just blow up. And

6:11

also at about the same time,

6:13

the MAC 65 cartridge came out.

6:15

And the Atari community assembly language

6:17

programmers just loved that. So I

6:20

think Atari kind of abandoned the

6:22

AMAC thing shortly after releasing it.

6:24

It had other issues too. It

6:26

had a copy protection scheme. It

6:29

had an editor and an assembler.

6:31

They were the separate programs or

6:33

maybe even on separate disks. So

6:35

you edit a while and you

6:38

put in another disk and load

6:40

the AMAC assembler, but it had

6:42

a really primitive type of copy

6:44

protection with bad sectors. So it

6:47

would have to retry three times.

6:49

And then it would go ahead

6:51

and load the thing after it

6:53

realized, okay, the bad sector is

6:56

here. Anyway, it made it unusable

6:58

and I managed to get rid

7:00

of the copy protection. And then

7:03

when I was able to get

7:05

into using virtual disks and stuff,

7:07

it sped everything up tremendously. And

7:09

that's why I put on my

7:12

web page a little promotional, you

7:14

know, here's AMAC assembler, it's really

7:16

not that bad, and here's some

7:18

stuff about how to use it.

7:21

So that that kind of maybe

7:23

clears up things on. Yeah, it

7:25

does. Thank you. Excuse me for

7:27

running away. I got a few

7:30

props here, but there it is.

7:32

You recognize the format of this

7:34

book. Sure. The Atari macro cylinder.

7:36

And then let's see, where did

7:39

we go from there? I forgot

7:41

you had a multi-part question. S-I-O-to-PC.

7:43

Oh yeah. Well, of course I've

7:46

done all this programming on the

7:48

Atari and the PC was really

7:50

coming on strong and people were

7:52

adopting it. And especially because of...

7:55

the PC clones, because even back

7:57

down, I think a PC might

7:59

have cost you $4,000, but a

8:01

clone could be had for maybe

8:04

half that. And so, you know,

8:06

I'm looking it over, just like

8:08

I had to get over that

8:10

hurdle with the Atari, like, can

8:13

I spend this much money? Do

8:15

you remember the DAC company, D-A-K?

8:17

True, sure. I got a weird

8:19

junk, Drew Kaplan. Well, I bought

8:22

the DAC, 8286 computer. It had

8:24

the Jam operating system, which is

8:26

a forerunner to Windows, and it

8:29

had... I think 20 megabyte hard

8:31

drive, so I thought, man, this

8:33

is fabulous, you know, I got

8:35

all this, I got 640K RAM,

8:38

I got this huge hard drive,

8:40

and I'd already gotten real interested

8:42

in data transfers because I'd written,

8:44

you mentioned earlier, a couple of

8:47

things for Atari to Atari. Turns

8:49

out that really, that appeals to

8:51

me, I'm not. with

8:53

computers and especially the Atari there's

8:55

a lot of visual stuff you

8:58

can do but I'm not very

9:00

visually oriented so I I went

9:02

into the the data transfer thing

9:04

and you know I've gotten interested

9:06

in that so I thought it'd

9:08

be great if I could use

9:10

this new PC because I also

9:12

want to learn assembly language on

9:14

it I've become a real assembly

9:16

language phonetics phonetics so I go

9:18

here's a whole new processor I

9:21

want to learn assembly language and

9:23

You know, it's basically the same

9:25

thing, whether it's 8086, 88, 286,

9:27

386, 486. As long as you're

9:29

not getting into the protected mode

9:31

and stuff, they're all compatible. But

9:33

anyway, I wanted to learn that.

9:35

So I had to look at,

9:37

you know, the technical feasibility and

9:39

the PC has a serial port

9:41

and the Atari has its SIO

9:44

port, but once you look at

9:46

it, it. You set it up

9:48

basically the same way as a

9:50

serial port on a PC. You

9:52

know, it has the same bond

9:54

rates and you know, you can

9:56

do that. handshaking and all that

9:58

stuff. So I can see that

10:00

I can match that stuff up.

10:02

And then you got to look

10:04

at the connectors and the voltages.

10:07

That was a little bit of

10:09

a problem and also a little

10:11

bit of an advantage because the

10:13

PC is the RS-232 standard. So

10:15

you have a positive voltage for.

10:17

logic zero, which is kind of

10:19

strange. It's upside down and a

10:21

negative voltage for logic one. Whereas

10:23

the Atari uses what's called TTL

10:25

voltage levels. So zero volts is

10:27

logic zero plus five volts is

10:29

logic one. And there's no negative

10:32

voltage. So I had to kind

10:34

of accommodate that. The zero to

10:36

five volts wouldn't hurt the PC's

10:38

port, but the plus up to

10:40

12 or 15 volts and minus

10:42

12 or 15 volts might hurt

10:44

the Atari hardware. Said to clamp

10:46

down those voltage ranges, but it

10:48

also kind of had to be

10:50

inverted because the more positive one

10:52

is logic zero on the PC,

10:55

but it's logic one on the

10:57

Atari. So I said, okay, I

10:59

need an inverter chip and I

11:01

need to limit the voltages and

11:03

the RS32 is quite flexible. It'll

11:05

usually most of the time work

11:07

with five volts. to zero volts,

11:09

even though it might not be

11:11

optimum. So, you know, I did

11:13

that in experiment and it worked.

11:15

But then I found that there's

11:18

this chip called the Max 232,

11:20

which is designed specifically for that,

11:22

converting TTL to RS232 and back.

11:24

It has two lines in each

11:26

direction, so it was ideal for

11:28

what I was doing. And it

11:30

even, you power it with five

11:32

volts, but it creates the plus

11:34

and minus 10 volts. Then there's

11:36

one more issue and that's that

11:38

the Atari serial bus that all

11:40

the peripherals connect to well It's

11:43

a common bus and so any

11:45

peripheral that's not active, it's got

11:47

to stay off. It can't be

11:49

low and it can't be high.

11:51

It can't be driving that wire

11:53

to any voltage. It's got to

11:55

be disconnected. Well, there's a, it's

11:57

a trademark of some company. There's

11:59

a thing called tri-state. So logic,

12:01

a logic chip will usually have

12:03

a high or low output for

12:06

these. tri-state chips had a control

12:08

line and you can go high,

12:10

low, or off, or if you're

12:12

going to call it disconnected or

12:14

high impedance. I had to add

12:16

that chip. It would have still

12:18

worked, but you wouldn't have been

12:20

able to daisy chain multiple devices

12:22

because it would be hogging the

12:24

bus at all times. So that

12:26

was my first hardware design. I

12:29

call it the two-chip design, because

12:31

later I realized I'm learning this

12:33

stuff as I go along. There's

12:35

a logic call it. open collector

12:37

logic where you just connect the

12:39

transistor to the line. The line

12:41

itself is always maintained by the

12:43

system at a positive voltage. I

12:45

hope I'm not getting too esoteric

12:47

here. No, it's fine. You turn

12:49

on that transistor and it pulls

12:52

it down the ground, it pulls

12:54

it low. You turn off that

12:56

transistor, it's not doing anything. It

12:58

won't source voltage. And so that's

13:00

what I needed. So I actually

13:02

kind of simulated that with about.

13:04

But the bottom line is I

13:06

cut back. from a two chip

13:08

version to a one chip version.

13:10

It made the hardware simpler and

13:12

also had to revise the software

13:14

because there's a little bit of

13:17

difference in the logic as far

13:19

as which one you were using.

13:21

But that original two chip design,

13:23

which allowed you to have a

13:25

peripheral, I mean, basically you could

13:27

have you could have the PC

13:29

connected to the Atari, but also

13:31

a floppy disk so that you

13:33

could copy things from a Atari

13:35

floppy disk to an ATR file

13:37

or whatever. Yeah. And since my

13:40

device had only one connector, you

13:42

could still have multiple disk drives,

13:44

but my device had to be

13:46

last. because it didn't provide a

13:48

jack for another one. But that's

13:50

not generally a big issue. So,

13:52

but then another thing that that

13:54

did when I get into the,

13:56

you know, what I was thinking

13:58

when I was doing this, I,

14:00

well, I thought at first, well,

14:03

if I can do this in

14:05

software, it doesn't really have any

14:07

possibility of making me any money.

14:09

You know, I wasn't trying to

14:11

make money, but if I could,

14:13

you know. I would. And so

14:15

I thought, can I make money

14:17

off this deal? But then I

14:19

thought, if it needs a hardware

14:21

device, you know, getting back to

14:23

the original thing, I say, well,

14:25

I could put it out of

14:28

software and say, here it is

14:30

for sale, or here it is,

14:32

please send me some shareware money.

14:34

And some people will and some

14:36

won't understand that, not a problem.

14:38

But I wouldn't go to make

14:40

any money on it. But if

14:42

I required a hardware device, then

14:44

they unless they were pretty technically

14:46

technically needed to get it to

14:48

get it for me. And so

14:51

that's why I thought I would

14:53

try that. But there's a lot

14:55

of other issues come into play.

14:57

I'm not, I don't have an

14:59

entrepreneur's personality. I'm not gonna put

15:01

up, say in those days money,

15:03

a thousand dollars at risk, maybe

15:05

to have a custom, a manufactured

15:07

circuit board made, so I'd be

15:09

real easy built. I built each

15:11

one, one at a time using

15:14

Radio Shack prototype boards, putting little

15:16

jumpers on. And likewise, I wasn't

15:18

going to spend money for advertising.

15:20

So I would just kind of

15:22

put out announcements in some of

15:24

these magazines and whatever would say.

15:26

Oh, that's interesting. We'll put a

15:28

notice, you know. So I'm doing

15:30

everything on the cheap because I

15:32

didn't really have any faith in

15:34

the idea, which is probably a

15:37

good idea that I didn't. But

15:39

that was kind of where that

15:41

went. And eventually, you know, I...

15:43

Well, I still had the charge

15:45

for the device because I was

15:47

putting in my time building them,

15:49

but you know, it's it was

15:51

kind of freeware that. So how

15:53

much did you did you charge

15:55

for the device and how many

15:57

did you sold sell and did

15:59

you make any money? I think

16:02

I originally charged like 50 bucks

16:04

and then later I may have

16:06

come down 40 or 35 or

16:08

something like that. You know everything

16:10

in computers started out high and

16:12

was going down. I mean you

16:14

could buy a program that was

16:16

basically a few hundred lines of

16:18

basic and pay 50 or 75

16:20

dollars for it, just because the

16:22

field was brand new. But anyway,

16:25

I think over a few years,

16:27

you know, I probably sold a

16:29

couple hundred of them, I figured

16:31

once, but I don't remember what

16:33

it was, maybe a couple thousand

16:35

dollars or something like that, you

16:37

know, it's cottage industry hobby, hobby,

16:39

income basically is what it amounted

16:41

to. But, you know, a great

16:43

experience anyway, and I got a

16:45

lot of good feedback from people,

16:48

so. Nice. And you gave this,

16:50

the software was free, so if

16:52

someone wanted to build it themselves,

16:54

they could do it? Yeah, I

16:56

suggest that a $10 shareware fee,

16:58

and I'll, but also give them

17:00

the drawing, you know, and the

17:02

parts list and stuff. I think

17:04

I was also at one point

17:06

selling, this is the pain to

17:08

build those things, and I would

17:10

just sell the kit of parts.

17:13

Okay. Here's, here's, here's a little

17:15

box, a prototype board, and here's

17:17

how you do it. others didn't.

17:19

But yeah I wanted to talk

17:21

about you know trying to get

17:23

the word out so I did

17:25

I one of the earliest one

17:27

I guess I sent out some

17:29

letters maybe to magazines that covered

17:31

Atari and maybe also some users

17:33

groups it's hard to remember all

17:36

these things but you remember computer

17:38

shopper is a big old thick

17:40

big format book and certainly him.

17:42

I have a letter somewhere, it's

17:44

in late 1989, and there was

17:46

a section or a column in

17:48

there. called Classic Computers, because IBM's

17:50

and clones and maybe some apples

17:52

were really dominating, but there were

17:54

still a lot of people with

17:56

their commodors and the Tories and

17:59

Sinclair and whatever, and so they

18:01

kind of covered that there. But

18:03

anyway, I got the letter and

18:05

he says, yeah, I'm going to

18:07

describe your project in February 1990

18:09

issue. his column went away before

18:11

the inside. You know, it has

18:13

like, it has 180,000 circulation. Of

18:15

course, almost all those are not

18:17

interested in classic computers, but some

18:19

of them were, you know, but

18:22

anyway, but I got to mention

18:24

an antique and then you gave

18:26

me that link to the classic

18:28

computing review, very positive review, and

18:30

the antique thing, I think, I

18:32

don't leave of a subscribe to

18:34

that magazine. I may have been

18:36

getting analog. Anyway, I started getting

18:38

letters and checks and people. I

18:40

saw you, saw the write-up in

18:42

Anna. Oh, really? And I'm like,

18:44

yeah, I want to buy one.

18:47

So that's why I kind of

18:49

kicked it off in early 1990

18:51

as far as selling the things.

18:53

And that was kind of, you

18:55

see me referring the notes, because

18:57

I've had to kind of try

18:59

to refresh my memory. I've forgotten

19:01

so much of this stuff. This

19:03

is a long time ago. It's

19:05

fair. Yeah. Oh yeah, another thing

19:07

I was going to mention, so

19:10

I'll back up a little bit

19:12

on compatibility, I'll give you a

19:14

whole bunch of gibberish about voltage

19:16

levels, but there's also the issue

19:18

of the connectors. On the PC,

19:20

you have a standard DB9 or

19:22

DB25, and you know, you can

19:24

buy those anywhere. But on the

19:26

Atari, it's that kind of weird

19:28

looking connector, you know, and the

19:30

big black thing, and I'm going

19:33

on, what is that, where did

19:35

I get it, and where did

19:37

I get it, and where did

19:39

I get it, and the technical

19:41

reference notes, the technical reference notes,

19:43

I don't, I don't, I don't,

19:45

But there was some company I

19:47

wish I could think of its

19:49

name that sold a whole lot

19:51

of Atari stuff a lot of

19:53

circle stuff to. It was probably

19:55

best electronics or maybe. and see

19:58

computer visions, but I think they

20:00

were mostly software. Yeah, and they

20:02

seem to have an inexhaustible, at

20:04

least I hope it was inexhaustible

20:06

supply of replacement SIO chords. So

20:08

I could buy that, cut it

20:10

in half. Now I got two

20:12

connectors, you know, because my device,

20:14

little blue box, you pushed the

20:16

cord in here and the cord

20:18

going to, you know, anyway, only

20:21

needed one connector per system is

20:23

the, is the thing. So that

20:25

was fortuitous that I was able

20:27

to do that I was able

20:29

to do that I was able

20:31

to do that. probably would have

20:33

been a way to kind of

20:35

come up with something, but it

20:37

would have been a lot more

20:39

cumbersome. But yeah, other than that,

20:41

you know, there's, there was a

20:44

lot into programming and adding features

20:46

and it seemed to be pretty

20:48

well formed when I released it,

20:50

you know, people were happy with

20:52

it, but boy, I was getting

20:54

a lot of correspondence about adding

20:56

features and sometimes describing bugs and

20:59

And I would have to try

21:01

to kill those bugs and I'd

21:03

be adding features. And I'd name

21:05

up features myself, so I spent

21:07

a whole lot of programming time.

21:09

It was, it was really a

21:11

lot of fun because you kind

21:13

of create your own universe with

21:15

its own, your own rules. You

21:17

just sit there and play in

21:20

it. I'm not one of these

21:22

computer guys that stays up until

21:24

three in the morning or something,

21:26

but I could put it on

21:28

an hour or two in the

21:30

evening. It was very satisfying to

21:32

do that to do that. And

21:34

then I wanted to talk a

21:36

little bit about some of the

21:38

features. I had a revision list

21:40

somewhere, but I can't find it.

21:42

But you know, I had something

21:45

about how to use it. And

21:47

of course, just the ability to

21:49

swap two disks is pretty simple

21:51

and pretty easy to implement. But

21:53

it's very useful, you know, you

21:55

could boot up on one, you

21:57

could create another one, you could

21:59

swap this one and two, and

22:01

then you could reboot off the

22:03

one you just created, that sort

22:05

of thing. And then I was

22:08

doing a lot of... as far

22:10

as the different file formats, upload

22:12

a file from the Atari to

22:14

the PC, not into a disk

22:16

image, but as a native PC

22:18

file. And then, you know, going

22:20

the other way, taking a file

22:22

on the PC and installing it

22:24

as a disk, but not having

22:26

to turn it into an ATR

22:28

file. I think you wanted me

22:31

to comment on the ATR thing.

22:33

I'll do that too. The print

22:35

through option to be able to

22:37

print from your Atari, and then

22:39

the PC intercepts it and sends

22:41

it to the PC's printer. The

22:43

Atari doesn't know. You just send

22:45

a P-colon like you normally would,

22:47

but the PC's like, oh, that's

22:49

for me, and sends it off

22:51

to your printer. And then you

22:53

had the options to change the

22:56

Atari tab and the Atari end

22:58

of line codes to the standard.

23:00

So, you know, it'll work right

23:02

with a printer that's a non-attory

23:04

printer, out of remote control. Sometimes

23:06

you wonder why you even did

23:08

some of this, but it's like,

23:10

if your PC were in a

23:12

separate room or something, you're sitting

23:14

here at your Atari and all

23:16

of a sudden you realize you

23:19

want to install another disc or

23:21

something, where you could load this

23:23

Atari program called remote. And now

23:25

you're typing on your Atari keyboard,

23:27

but it's... it's controlling SIO2 PC

23:29

in the other room or whatever.

23:31

So there was that thing. Also

23:33

the ability to jump to high

23:35

speed. I never did pursue the

23:37

super high speeds, but I think

23:39

Sparta Doss and maybe my Doss

23:41

went to double speed, you know,

23:44

from 19-2 to 30, 384 or

23:46

whatever. And so that was good

23:48

to be able to do that.

23:50

Then I did this separate device.

23:52

1052 PC that was actually a

23:54

different hardware because it's kind of

23:56

working the other direction instead of

23:58

plugging. your Atari

24:00

into your PC, you plugged in

24:02

Atari Drive into your PC. But

24:04

it seems a little weird, but

24:07

you could do stuff, you could

24:09

issue the drive standard commands, and

24:11

then you could read what come

24:13

back. And one useful thing would

24:15

be to figure out what kind

24:17

of copy protection is going on,

24:19

or in general, what's wrong with

24:22

this disk if something is wrong

24:24

with it? Because you could call

24:26

up sectors and... And then it

24:28

would give you the codes that

24:30

indicated, all right, it's a bad

24:32

sector, it's a double sector, it's

24:34

a missing sector, that kind of

24:37

thing. So that was another thing

24:39

I added. So that was a

24:41

separate product, basically. It was a

24:43

separate product, basically. It was a

24:45

separate product, you know, and some

24:47

people could see the value in

24:49

it, but, you know, for most

24:52

people, it wouldn't be a thing

24:54

that they'd want, but I made

24:56

a product out of it. You

24:58

hadn't mentioned, I don't think you

25:00

mentioned RAM disks, you could turn

25:02

the PC into a virtual drive

25:04

for the Atari. Right, and you

25:06

know, initially I felt like that

25:09

was the way to go was

25:11

to, even if I had these

25:13

ATR images on the hard drive,

25:15

I wanted to put them in

25:17

RAM, and so that's what I

25:19

did. I felt like that would

25:21

be. faster and cleaner, although usually

25:24

hard to eyes pretty fast. I'm

25:26

not sure what exactly I was

25:28

thinking, but I did. I put

25:30

them in the RAM space of

25:32

the PC and then interacted with

25:34

it that way. Oh yeah, it's

25:36

a TR thing. You know, I

25:39

started this thing and I'm trying

25:41

to keep an open mind and

25:43

not paint myself into a corner

25:45

or anything. So I thought, well,

25:47

I'm going to create this disk

25:49

image. But maybe I ought to

25:51

have some kind of a recognizable

25:54

codes with my program, S-O-2PC, can

25:56

look at that file and say,

25:58

yep, this is intended to be.

26:00

an Atari disk image. So that's

26:02

so that was the only thing

26:04

is just to put that code

26:06

at the front and then after

26:09

that it's just sectors not not

26:11

125 byte data sectors but 128

26:13

sectors which included all the information

26:15

to point to the next sector

26:17

and so forth. But anyway I

26:19

did that and later I came

26:21

to see that I probably really

26:23

didn't need to but it had

26:26

to kind of added a term

26:28

to the Atari world you know.

26:30

ATR format. And of course, other

26:32

people doing similar systems, they go,

26:34

okay, well, we can read an

26:36

ATR format or read a plain

26:38

PC file. And I could too,

26:41

after a while, after I realized,

26:43

it wasn't really a great advantage

26:45

in having that, but now I

26:47

had my own file extension to

26:49

tell me, hey, this is my...

26:51

But it's still in use. People

26:53

still, it's like still a standard.

26:56

And they've come up with like

26:58

the ATX, which is a little

27:00

better for, you know, copy protected

27:02

disks and things. But man, there's

27:04

still just billions of ATR files

27:06

out there. And so I think

27:08

it, I think you undersell it

27:11

when you say, oh, it wasn't

27:13

really necessary. Yeah, I don't know.

27:15

Like you say, I did, I

27:17

did realize that, hey, this became

27:19

something that people recognized. I guess

27:21

from that standpoint, maybe it had

27:23

some value. So did you, did

27:25

you put any much thought into,

27:28

you know, will this work with

27:30

double density disks or will it

27:32

work with odd, you know, different

27:34

numbers of sectors or anything or

27:36

did you just? Yeah. Well, I

27:38

think double density was something I

27:40

felt like wouldn't be hard to

27:43

implement right off the bat. So

27:45

I did that. Although I don't

27:47

think a lot of people, a

27:49

lot of systems were using double

27:51

density. I could be wrong there.

27:53

Some of the more advanced ones,

27:55

like I never use part of

27:58

dust, I use my dust mostly

28:00

and then Atari dosses, but some

28:02

of the more advanced. may have

28:04

been using. And then, you know,

28:06

eventually, and I may have even

28:08

had a term like big disk

28:10

or something where it's finally it

28:13

could get as big as you

28:15

wanted it to be, you know,

28:17

you could put all your Atari

28:19

stuff on one disk image if

28:21

you wanted to, I guess, their

28:23

advantage and disadvantages to that. But,

28:25

you know, you know, within the

28:27

limitations of whatever the pointer was,

28:30

if it was 16 bits or

28:32

whatever for the next sector number.

28:34

Yeah, I did I did go

28:36

to that One of the things

28:38

when I think back on this

28:40

is about how I communicated with

28:42

people in the Atari community Who

28:45

wanted to use this thing because

28:47

it seemed very odd to me

28:49

at first because like say I

28:51

got I got a PC computer

28:53

from DEC in 1989 I'm fairly

28:55

certain in 1989 I got like

28:57

a 2,400 mod modem and I

29:00

could, I had email, but I

29:02

noticed none of my correspondence did

29:04

I put an email address there

29:06

and all the, here's my, my

29:08

correspondence file, it was all US

29:10

post office or as they say

29:12

snail mail, and nothing was done

29:15

by email and when I reflected

29:17

on it, I thought, well, okay,

29:19

for one thing, maybe a lot

29:21

of people didn't have email. Now,

29:23

some people had email, but to

29:25

connect their modem to the provider,

29:27

it might have been a long

29:29

distance call. And then also, if

29:32

we had hooked up that way,

29:34

how are they going to pay

29:36

me? There wasn't any Venmo or

29:38

here's my credit card information. They

29:40

had to send me a personal

29:42

check. Of course, I had to

29:44

send them a physical device. But,

29:47

excuse me, could I update them

29:49

when I did a revision to

29:51

the software? Not really. The fact

29:53

sucker was 40K. That would have

29:55

been a huge attachment to try

29:57

to attach to a... and they'd

29:59

have been rejected, you know, just

30:02

out of hands. So none of

30:04

that was possible. And eventually, probably

30:06

got there, but I was long

30:08

past the point of developing or

30:10

building things, you know. I used

30:12

to seem like once a year

30:14

or something, I'd get a email

30:17

from some of my hair. I

30:19

dug out my old Atari and

30:21

how does this work? I can't

30:23

remember. And that's always fun. I

30:25

have to try to refresh my

30:27

own mind about. How

30:30

it worked. What year did you

30:32

come out with the device? I

30:34

just found a mention of it

30:37

from 1991. Yeah, I think I

30:39

think there was an antique mention

30:41

in 1990, according to my notes.

30:44

And then I said, I had

30:46

that letter from Computer Shopper in

30:48

1989. So I must have put

30:51

this thing together in the year

30:53

1989. I said we bought that.

30:55

That computer in 1989, it was

30:58

January. So I probably spent eight

31:00

or ten months developing the thing,

31:02

and then by late 1989, it

31:05

was kind of ready to go,

31:07

and then starting to get announcements

31:09

out to the world in 90.

31:12

And I was flipping through this

31:14

correspondence, and I had some people

31:16

sending me letters in spring of

31:19

1990, saying, here's my check, you

31:21

know, and please send me this

31:23

and that. Another thing about

31:26

the correspondence is, you know, nobody

31:28

writes letters anymore and that's good

31:30

or bad. Well, we all write

31:32

a lot of emails, so it's

31:34

the same deal, I guess, but

31:36

it was quite enjoyable to get

31:38

into some pen pal, type of

31:40

correspondence with people that would get

31:42

off the subject maybe and tell

31:44

some personal anecdotes and stuff, develop

31:46

some friendships, you know, through the

31:48

mail that way, which is interesting

31:50

when you're talking about computer communication.

31:52

You're going back to an archaic.

31:54

communication method like letter writing. I'm

31:56

so I'm so intrigued by that

31:58

filter correspondence that that you showed

32:00

be first of all that you

32:02

saved it all these years. Can

32:04

you just give me a sample

32:06

of what's in there just grab

32:09

one or two and just kind

32:11

of tell me show me I

32:13

want to know what what's what

32:15

you got. Let's see March 1991

32:17

boy wrote up it took a

32:19

whole page you know what it's

32:21

not metric stuff really. fades,

32:23

but he says, I read

32:25

with interest and excitement Bob

32:27

Woolley's review of your SIO,

32:30

two PC device, software and

32:32

hardware in the January issue

32:34

of Atari interface magazine. I

32:36

am stationed in Germany. That

32:38

was another thing that kind

32:40

of excited me, you know,

32:42

a country boy from Arkansas.

32:44

I'm getting all these letters

32:46

from Poland, UK, Israel, Australia

32:48

and stuff, but anyway. He

32:50

goes on, he's talking about

32:52

using VisiCalk and so forth

32:55

and enclosed is a check

32:57

for $50. That's the important

32:59

thing. Here's another one. Oh,

33:01

this is for me. I

33:03

was wondering how did I

33:05

update people. Surely I didn't

33:07

write everybody every time I

33:09

did a new version, but

33:11

dear SIO2PC user, I believe

33:13

you're a user of 2.6

33:15

or 2.7. I recently discovered

33:18

a bug, so I would.

33:20

by mail send out bug

33:22

reports to people and then

33:24

tell them, you know, that,

33:26

you know, they could get

33:28

a revised copy. But, you

33:30

know, I would have to

33:32

send out a disc. So

33:34

maybe I'd say, send me

33:36

a self-addressed envelope or something.

33:38

This is actually the guy

33:41

writing on my letter. Yes,

33:43

please send me the fix

33:45

and close $2. Okay. And

33:47

written letter. It's so interesting.

33:49

Like. One guy I was

33:51

trying to I'm getting out

33:53

of the picture am I

33:55

not but He was an

33:57

author And he was trying

33:59

to transfer up to Atari.

34:01

No, he wanted to transfer

34:04

his Atari disc. He'd been

34:06

writing on the Atari to

34:08

the PC. Turns out he'd

34:10

gone to the same little

34:12

high school I went to

34:14

in Arkansas, and he'd become

34:16

a famous writer. He co-authored

34:18

a book called Fail Safe.

34:20

We had quite an interesting

34:22

conversation. He knew my mother's

34:24

brothers. This is way back.

34:27

Here's one from Australia 1990. Thank

34:29

you for your reply to my

34:32

letter. Enclosed is US $57 for

34:34

the cost of the kit with

34:36

the 25-pen RS-232 and shipping to

34:39

me. So it's amazing. People want

34:41

to go to the big old

34:44

connectors, but you know, in some

34:46

cases, that's what the hardware has.

34:48

But this guy putting his heading.

34:51

I don't know if you can

34:53

see that. S-I-O-2 PC is great.

34:55

The best solution for... Nice. They

34:58

use the print shop for that,

35:00

clearly. That's beautiful. I wonder if

35:02

that was a club. Maybe it

35:05

might have been. But yeah, I

35:07

just... I'm usually, I let stuff

35:09

get away, but I started sticking

35:12

all this in a file. This

35:14

guy says genie messaging area. Never

35:16

got into the VBS stuff. My

35:19

son's yet, but I didn't. very

35:21

much. So I guess that's how

35:23

a lot of people communicated. But

35:26

anyway, yeah, it's so it's so

35:28

sweet that you that you save

35:30

that I love that. I got

35:33

a couple other show and tells.

35:35

Yeah, talked about the keyer. This

35:37

is a source code. The source

35:40

code to the keyer. That's that's

35:42

a good half a stick. I

35:44

mean, that's huge. So yeah, that

35:47

was a big. When

35:50

I was talking about the things

35:52

that allowed me to get into

35:54

this project, I also wanted to

35:56

mention the availability of documentation. Atari

35:59

was. Very well documented with the

36:01

reference notes. This is the hardware

36:03

manual. There's connectors and stuff. And

36:05

then they even had, I'm sure

36:07

you know this, all the source

36:10

code for the operating system. Sure,

36:12

the technical reference notes. Yeah. Right.

36:14

And it's great. And then they

36:16

also published this thing, Day Ray

36:18

Atari. Are you familiar with it?

36:21

Absolutely. Yeah. It's a great book.

36:23

That was the Bible. Instead of

36:25

rather being just dry technical stuff,

36:27

it's written in a, I don't

36:30

know, a more appealing style and

36:32

you talk about stuff like human

36:34

engineering and I say, now this

36:36

is human fast, this is machine

36:38

fast telling you stuff like that

36:41

that you kind of need to

36:43

know. All I'm doing is showing

36:45

tell. Very useful. By Ian. Chadwood.

36:47

Yes. And I also got a

36:49

lot of use how this book

36:52

because it had a disk utility

36:54

that explained a lot about sectors

36:56

and so forth. The analog compendium?

36:58

Sure. I don't have that. I

37:01

don't have it here, but there

37:03

was a wealth of stuff for

37:05

the IBM PC and you had

37:07

hardware books. You had books on

37:09

the. on DOS and also I

37:12

like to use data sheets a

37:14

lot you know there's the 8250

37:16

timer chip and they can get

37:18

pretty dense you know I can

37:20

get pretty technical but after you

37:23

go through it a half of

37:25

those the time you can kind

37:27

of figure out this and that

37:29

I did I like to program

37:31

directly to the hardware that's kind

37:34

of fun it can be stupid

37:36

because The hardware changes, then the

37:38

computer manifests. will just update their

37:40

bias. And if you're doing bias

37:43

calls or even at a higher

37:45

level, loss calls, it will be

37:47

taken care of. But if you're

37:49

left on an island, if you

37:51

were talking to the hardware, you

37:54

have to fix it yourself. But

37:56

you know, that that one with

37:58

my idea of being the assembly

38:00

language guy, you know, and getting

38:02

right down to the nuts and

38:05

bolts and that's, you know, what

38:07

I was trying to do. And

38:09

I don't know, probably tried. ground

38:11

several times already. So I wanted

38:14

to talk about the winding down

38:16

part, which is, you know, I

38:18

don't know over what period, but

38:20

of course, everybody's going to bigger

38:22

and more powerful computers and maybe

38:25

putting their attorneys on the shelf.

38:27

But also the the IBM PC,

38:29

as we call the Tanner clones,

38:31

was becoming Windows machines. Windows was

38:33

getting more hostile, not intentionally, but

38:36

incompatible with user authored stuff running

38:38

under DOS because it would interfere

38:40

with the timing. You're running your

38:42

S.O.2 PC and a DOS window

38:45

and Windows is looking at it

38:47

and going, there's been no activity

38:49

from the keyboard lately. I think

38:51

I'll switch to this other and

38:53

it would mess up the timings

38:56

of the serial bus and so

38:58

eventually, and then eventually you just

39:00

couldn't, couldn't run that type of

39:02

program anymore at all. So, and

39:04

I didn't, I wasn't ready to

39:07

make a move to programming. native

39:09

in windows. I wasn't ready to

39:11

learn C. I've since kind of

39:13

learned some C and I did

39:15

a real big program in C

39:18

sharp, but that was years after

39:20

the Atari stuff. So as far

39:22

as what I wanted to remember,

39:24

that's most of it. And I

39:27

don't know if I covered a

39:29

lot or most of the things

39:31

you were interested in or not.

39:33

Yeah, that's great. Thank you. I

39:35

just own a drop back. I

39:38

mean, I feel like the SAO

39:40

to PC was a revolution because

39:42

the environment that we were coming

39:44

from was if you wanted to

39:46

get information off of your Atari,

39:49

you were either using a cassette

39:51

or a disc or a modem

39:53

or a null modem. And some

39:55

people would, sure, you could fashion

39:58

a cable with a joystick port,

40:00

you know, to to bit bang

40:02

the joystick port and send information

40:04

to another Atari or something. And

40:06

that was it. And it was

40:09

kind of every computer was kind

40:11

of locked in and then you

40:13

PC came out and you came

40:15

up with this this thing where

40:17

let's make the PC a peripheral

40:20

for the Atari that was I

40:22

believe amazing out-of-the-box thinking that that

40:24

you created something that just hadn't

40:26

been done before. Did you realize

40:29

that at the time? I kind

40:31

of thought that it would it

40:33

could be revolutionary because I hadn't

40:35

seen anything like it. You never

40:37

know if somebody else might be

40:40

doing something that's at the same

40:42

time you are, but I thought,

40:44

yeah. And then in the reception

40:46

I got to it, people, you

40:48

know, people who are knowledgeable Atari

40:51

users looked at that and said,

40:53

yeah, I want to do this.

40:55

This really sounds great. So yeah,

40:57

I feel like it was, you

41:00

know, hit and go there as

41:02

far as coming up. And when

41:04

you're a programmer coming up with

41:06

a word, a worthy project is

41:08

a lot of times is your

41:11

biggest issue, you know, you know,

41:13

you know, and I'd like to

41:15

be programming, but I don't know

41:17

what to do. I don't want

41:19

to work on something's been done

41:22

a million times, or maybe I

41:24

do, you know, you have to

41:26

have something to work on. I

41:28

wanted, I was also going to

41:30

mention, you know, when I thought,

41:33

when I said winding down, people

41:35

are getting away from the Atari

41:37

and so forth, and I was

41:39

getting away from the Atari. But

41:42

other things were going on too.

41:44

People were developing other means of

41:46

high-speed mass storage like... the IDE

41:48

drives, I never did get one,

41:50

but you know, there were these

41:53

interfaces and so people could hook

41:55

up maybe a little disk drive

41:57

or something directly to the Atari,

41:59

that was, that was pretty cool.

42:01

And then another thing was these

42:04

emulators, you know, one of them

42:06

appeared when I was still actively

42:08

doing S-A-O-2-PC stuff, I'm trying to

42:10

name it now, but the guy's

42:13

name was Derek. a choke or

42:15

something like that. I forget, but

42:17

the one came out, the one

42:19

I used around that era was

42:21

on the Mac. It was called

42:24

Rainbow. Okay. But if there was

42:26

a PC one, I don't know,

42:28

maybe it was a terror at

42:30

that point. I don't know. Yeah.

42:32

And when I started, you know,

42:35

about the time I talked to

42:37

you earlier, I'd gotten to investigating

42:39

Atari things and finding out that

42:41

there's so much stuff out there

42:44

and there were several emulators. I

42:46

think one of one of them

42:48

is just called just called. Atari

42:50

800 or something. But they're amazing.

42:52

That fidelity, you know, when I

42:55

first saw that, yeah, people could

42:57

do this. Of course, there's a

42:59

lot of power in a Windows

43:01

computer, but they could do this

43:03

so faithfully to the Atari. It's

43:06

just, it's amazing. The hard part

43:08

is like joysticks and stuff. That's,

43:10

that's where, you know, if you're

43:12

having to tap on your keyboard

43:15

and things like that, that makes

43:17

a little difficult. But otherwise, they're,

43:19

they're quite amazing. And it means

43:21

you don't have to dig out

43:23

your old gusty hardware out of

43:26

the basement or whatever. Maybe it's

43:28

not even working anymore. You can

43:30

still do stuff. You know, I

43:32

could run the AMAC and I

43:34

think I've done it. I got

43:37

to the point once where I

43:39

was doing all my assembly stuff.

43:41

I didn't even have it while

43:43

I had an Atari, but I

43:45

was doing it all on the

43:48

Windows computer within an emulator. So

43:50

it's, you know, zip fast. I

43:52

would have to retrain myself on

43:54

exactly how that worked to do

43:57

it today. And cross assembly is

43:59

amazing. Yeah. Yeah. interest and meet.

44:01

Yeah, another thing as far as retraining

44:03

myself, you know, I wanted to look

44:05

at some of these old programs I've

44:08

written in case, you know, they came

44:10

up and some of them I couldn't

44:12

really find the source code. And then

44:14

I'm thinking, some of it's locked up

44:16

in these ATRs, but at this moment,

44:19

I'm not equipped to, you know, take

44:21

me an hour or two to either use

44:23

an emulator, I get out my hardware

44:25

and say, okay. Let's extract these text

44:27

files, which is what source code is,

44:30

from these ATRs, download them to a

44:32

PC file, so I can refer to them

44:34

in the future. I may still do that,

44:36

you know, and get into land. Send them

44:39

to me. I can do it in 30

44:41

seconds. Yeah, I thought, well, I could have

44:43

utility, and then I thought, there's probably utilities

44:45

out there, tons of them that can do

44:48

that. Yeah, there's, there's command line Linux utilities,

44:50

there's, there's all sorts of, all sorts of,

44:52

all sorts of, But if you don't want

44:55

to take the time to learn how to

44:57

do it, or that could be fun too.

44:59

So did you, did you get back into

45:01

Atari a little bit after we talked a

45:04

couple years ago? I did to a certain

45:06

amount, you know, I was using my keyer

45:08

program, playing games, and you

45:10

know, I bought a little hardware

45:12

device that would allow the composite,

45:14

convert the, it was either composite

45:17

or RGB, it's probably RGB, because

45:19

the Tari gives you both to

45:21

VGA monitor and. It even had

45:23

the sound I think so it was

45:25

working pretty well but I've

45:28

already got so much junk here

45:30

and I was kind of thinking

45:32

of really getting back into writing

45:34

some more 6502 code and

45:37

or maybe enhancing some of

45:39

the programs are done

45:41

but I'm finally backed away from

45:43

that it's I like to try to

45:45

keep the past alive and not

45:47

let all this stuff die out but

45:50

you can't totally do that. and

45:52

still keep going forward with your life

45:54

because there's so much complexity in there.

45:56

So that was a long answer to a short question, but

45:58

yeah, I may dig it out. and play with

46:00

it some more. I'll just keep

46:03

interviewing you until you're doing Atari

46:05

full-time. The Atari was such a

46:07

great computer, you know, and when

46:09

I got the PC, you know,

46:11

comparatively I go, and his PC

46:13

is pretty lame, you know, it's

46:15

got like two timers and due

46:17

to an error and the bias,

46:19

one of them doesn't work and

46:21

it can't do this four-channel sound

46:23

and all this other stuff, you

46:26

know, but eventually they came around.

46:28

And, you know, started putting all

46:30

that stuff in PCs. They had

46:32

to call it presentation, sound, and

46:34

graphics, so it was suitable for

46:36

a business environment. Otherwise, it was,

46:38

otherwise it was frivolous, you know,

46:40

look at this, they're playing games,

46:42

they're playing music. Did, did you

46:44

ever collaborate or work with or

46:46

deal with, uh, Stephen Tucker, he

46:48

had a similar product called ape,

46:51

it was sort of like S-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-

46:53

I don't know if we communicated,

46:55

we may have once or twice,

46:57

but you know, I was very

46:59

aware of his stuff and what

47:01

he was doing. You know, I

47:03

thought he was putting a lot

47:05

of work into it, for instance,

47:07

doing the 850 interface emulation, which

47:09

I never did that. And I

47:11

looked at his program some, I

47:14

think it's quite a bit similar

47:16

to mine. So, yeah. I don't

47:18

know if there were others or

47:20

not. Nowadays, they probably are, but,

47:22

you know, back then I think

47:24

that was it. I don't think

47:26

any other major SAO to PC

47:28

devices happened. It was yours, there

47:30

was Atari Max, and that was

47:32

good enough. Those were two choices.

47:34

And then, of course, now there's

47:37

SAO to USB and FujiNet and

47:39

other things. Oh, yeah. You know,

47:41

that the PC is not really

47:43

needed component anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And

47:45

you know, when you were talking

47:47

about being kind of a revolutionary

47:49

thing. Another thing was that SIO2PC

47:51

kind of became a generic term,

47:53

you know, it's just like. an

47:55

interface, a connection between the Atari

47:57

and the PC, I think. And,

47:59

you know, I noticed later people

48:02

were, were cloning the hardware, you

48:04

know, and use my software. But,

48:06

you know, once again, it's fine.

48:08

That's not, that's not a complaint,

48:10

but it was just, I guess

48:12

it's a, what do you call

48:14

it? Since the former flattery, maybe.

48:16

Right. Right. I believe you also

48:18

did something called Ataricom. Which according

48:20

to this, I've never used it,

48:22

said could connect multiple Atari 8bit

48:25

computers together and communicate between them

48:27

using SIO and joystick ports. Does

48:29

that ring a bell? It rings

48:31

a bell, but I don't know.

48:33

I may have overstated it if

48:35

I said multiple, at least especially

48:37

with joystick ports. I think it

48:39

was one to one. Well, I

48:41

think I only had two Atari

48:43

at the time, but this was.

48:45

me learning to do communication. I

48:47

did one called Talk PIA or

48:50

something like that. The PIA is

48:52

the chip that goes to the

48:54

joystick. And I interface. And this

48:56

is a non-clock logic. So I

48:58

kind of had to invent it

49:00

myself. You know, you have two

49:02

or three lines. And it gets

49:04

very interesting how you have to

49:06

do it to keep the two

49:08

computers from getting confused about. you

49:10

know who's got who's got the

49:13

ball at this time and stuff

49:15

but it worked really well it's

49:17

very fast because it wasn't clock

49:19

so it'll run as fast as

49:21

it will run but you know

49:23

I think I remember you having

49:25

a computer out in the garage

49:27

with my hand radio and another

49:29

one in the house and I

49:31

was talking between them but then

49:33

I thought if I only had

49:35

one this drive how did I

49:38

load that one I think I

49:40

may have put some kind of

49:42

boot thing on a cassette that's

49:44

that's that's just about primitive about

49:46

primitive enough to be something I

49:48

would have done to be something

49:50

I would have done And then

49:52

I also wonder why did I

49:54

go to the SIO from the

49:56

joystick? And the answer to that

49:58

should be that. A

50:01

computer will boot off the SIO if

50:03

it finds something that looks like a

50:05

boot sector of a disk drive. So

50:07

I probably wrote on one a fake

50:10

boot sector. And then, you know, the

50:12

other one without a disk drive would

50:14

boot from that, and then they could

50:16

start talking to each other. So I

50:18

think it's probably why I want the

50:20

SIO way. Plus, I just wanted to

50:22

learn about it. That was my initial

50:24

education on it that was preceded, you

50:27

know, SITPC by a couple years, I

50:29

guess. So. learning about data

50:31

communication. Nice. Did you work on

50:33

any other Atari projects that you

50:36

recall that we haven't talked to

50:38

that yet? It was mostly minor

50:40

stuff, you know, with hand radio,

50:42

I did a kind of a

50:45

terminal program to connect to something

50:47

called a packet radio interface. Basically,

50:49

it needed the dumb terminal, so

50:52

I was creating a dumb terminal.

50:54

We have that you and we

50:56

have the that that program in

50:58

the source code or already on

51:01

internet archive thanks to you last

51:03

time. I also build a radio

51:05

frequency synthesizer that could be controlled

51:07

by the serial lines. So naturally

51:10

I wrote the program for the

51:12

Atari to control that synthesizer. Basically

51:14

the sent set it to whatever

51:16

frequency wanted or scan frequencies or

51:19

whatever. I did it on Atari

51:21

and then I did it again.

51:23

on the PC and assembly language.

51:25

So, you know, from a radio

51:28

point of view, that's one of

51:30

the things you're gonna do, a

51:32

frequency controlled device or frequency generating

51:35

device that can be controlled through

51:37

some kind of a data link.

51:39

Naturally, you're gonna write a program

51:41

to do that because it's there.

51:44

But other than that, you know.

51:46

I never didn't write any games

51:48

or anything because like I say

51:50

I wasn't, I like games but

51:53

I wasn't, I'm not very visually

51:55

oriented. So, design and that kind

51:57

of thing, you know, it's not

51:59

a strong suit. All right, I

52:02

probably asked you this last time,

52:04

but what happened, what happened to

52:06

ask you about that time that

52:09

I should have? I'm glad the

52:11

Atari world is still out there.

52:13

I really appreciate what you're doing

52:15

and, and, you know, I look

52:18

on the web and see people

52:20

are still doing stuff, so that's

52:22

harpinging, you know, it's, it's easy

52:24

to think you get away from

52:27

something, then the whole world's gotten

52:29

away from it. Thank you for

52:31

your time, Nick. This was great.

52:33

Well, thank you. I enjoyed it,

52:36

enjoyed the reminiscence and I've got

52:38

a little document I wrote up.

52:40

I didn't have time to review

52:43

it. Maybe I'll even send it

52:45

to you. Great. Yeah, yeah. I

52:47

love to see it. And yeah,

52:49

thank you for creating SAO to

52:52

PC. I used it extensively. I

52:54

don't remember how I got my

52:56

cable, but I used it in

52:58

the mid 90s extensively. Someone someone

53:01

sent me. hundreds of disks from

53:03

the the old hackers Atari user

53:05

group newsletter and and one by

53:07

one I just methodically copied those

53:10

disks using SRA to PC from

53:12

from the Atari to to a

53:14

PC and then I think somehow

53:17

I FTP those to a to

53:19

some you know some website or

53:21

something and and now they're they're

53:23

available still now but you know

53:26

There's so many better and faster

53:28

ways to do it now, but

53:30

there wasn't then and your thing

53:32

was how I got it done

53:35

and those things are saved because

53:37

of you. Yeah. Thanks again, Nick.

53:39

Goodbye, it's hard people. If you

53:41

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