0:04

This is Antik,

0:06

the Atari-A-Zid, podcast.

0:09

This is Antik, the

0:11

Atari 8-bit podcast.

0:13

I'm Kay Savitz.

0:16

Tim This is

0:18

Antik, The Atari at Atari I'm

0:20

Kay 1982. He Tim Bullert began

0:22

at Atari in 1982. New He

0:24

worked at WCI Labs, the

0:26

New York Atari subsidiary, where

0:28

he worked on the breadboard

0:30

of the of the 600XL, robotics

0:32

projects and mass storage devices. This

0:35

interview took place on June 4th,

0:37

2022. on June A video version

0:40

of this interview is also available

0:42

on YouTube and is available on Well,

0:44

I grew up in Central

0:46

New York. Well, I grew up in Central

0:48

New York. Early I was playing

0:51

music for for not a a living,

0:53

but. was my That was my

0:55

goal it to make it

0:57

in the music industry. About 1980 or

0:59

so, a 1980 or so, a

1:01

group of us that were

1:03

playing together decided to move

1:05

to New York. move Kind of as

1:07

a family, which was kind of nice, made it

1:09

a lot easier. which was

1:12

so nice, made of us

1:14

moved down in

1:16

1981, of I believe. down

1:19

in 1981, I believe.

1:22

And I... I I believe it was

1:24

probably a couple of weeks before

1:26

I ended up landing a job.

1:28

before I ended first job

1:30

was at Sam first

1:32

job was at Sam Goodies, and

1:35

that that lasted. about

1:37

six maybe about six months or

1:39

so. up going to

1:41

up going to work for Brothers.

1:44

They have a division called

1:46

WEA, W -E -A. which which

1:48

stands for Warner

1:51

Electric. And And they

1:53

were the record distribution arm

1:55

for those three labels. labels.

1:57

So I started out there

1:59

the. mail room. And

2:01

by the summer of

2:04

82, there was a kind

2:06

of a lull in

2:08

the industry, a major dip.

2:10

And I got laid

2:12

off. I had moved up

2:14

from mailroom to inventory

2:16

clerk. So I would literally

2:18

walk the island to

2:20

all the venues. I'd start

2:22

down World Trade Center.

2:25

I think it was J

2:27

and K music. I

2:29

went to first, and I

2:31

would walk my way

2:33

back uptown. I had to

2:35

count certain records and

2:37

inventory that for the sales

2:39

guys. Let's

2:43

see. So summer of

2:45

82. I

2:49

got chopped from that job

2:52

laid off as a result of

2:54

the slump. And the one

2:56

great thing about the the Warner

2:58

umbrella was that they would

3:00

find you other employment. I

3:03

was offered two

3:05

positions. And I

3:08

had my choice. First position

3:10

was for a new startup

3:12

company that worked in the

3:14

video industry, MTV.

3:18

The other one was for

3:20

Atari. And I tend to

3:23

sway towards the technology. And

3:25

so that's where I went.

3:27

I went to Atari. And

3:31

that was really, really

3:33

interesting. Again,

3:36

I started in the mailroom. When

3:39

I was interviewed, I was interviewed

3:41

by now I know after the fact

3:43

that I guess he was like

3:45

the lead engineer there. His name was

3:47

Bob Card. And

3:51

the reason I got the job

3:53

was because Bob was a frustrated musician

3:55

as well. So once he found

3:57

out I played music, my

3:59

phone What was in the door

4:01

as far as he was concerned, he

4:03

convinced the human resources. the human

4:06

to hire me on and I

4:08

believe at that time it was

4:10

a I lady named that time, it was a

4:12

young lady named Penny were

4:14

great people. They were just very

4:16

nice out of the box. just

4:18

know, growing up of I grew up

4:20

know, a small town. I grew up in a

4:23

The big city was a big deal for

4:25

me. a big deal for me. know,

4:27

we we up here hear

4:29

stories about. you know, how know,

4:31

how rude New Yorkers are and

4:34

cetera, et cetera. You get

4:36

used to it after a while. a

4:38

you know, it's, I think it's a

4:40

persona that they put on to defend

4:42

themselves. they put on But these guys were

4:44

great. You know, I But I think

4:46

lived out on the island. Bob lived

4:48

right on the I of Manhattan out

4:50

me. island of Manhattan with

4:52

think he he was. maybe

4:55

in the lower 60s, I I

4:57

was in the lower 90s, upper west

4:59

side. So that Um, so

5:01

that started it. I basically

5:03

worked in the mail. for, you know,

5:05

a very know, a very

5:08

short period of time because

5:10

the company was expanding so

5:12

quickly. so quickly, he he

5:14

pushed me into the tech

5:16

position. and And that

5:18

starts the whole story of working on

5:20

the on the 600

5:23

Excel. doing the robotics

5:25

projects, et cetera, et

5:27

cetera. etc. So I'm not really

5:29

sure how much you know about

5:31

my history there or what you'd like

5:33

what you'd like to talk

5:35

about it's, kind of It's kind of

5:37

I've I've actually learned a

5:40

lot of new things by listening

5:42

to podcasts. to podcasts, hearing some of

5:44

the some of the old voices you

5:46

you know, that I actually I

5:48

with worked was really nice to to

5:50

that and hear that. that. And

5:52

my my in Atari

5:54

got got renewed

5:56

by a named Kurt Vendale,

5:58

who had reached. out to me.

6:00

Oh a handful of years ago

6:03

before he passed away. And we

6:05

had some great discussions. I had

6:07

no idea that people were still

6:09

interested, that there's people out there

6:12

that are, you know, collectors, etc,

6:14

etc. etc. So that kind of

6:16

came as a revelation to me

6:18

because, you know, basically when I

6:21

moved out of there, probably like

6:23

84, 85, I moved back upstate,

6:25

I did some. technician work. As

6:27

a result, I worked for a

6:30

small apple dealer up here. And

6:32

then I moved back to New

6:34

Jersey, mid 80s, probably 86 maybe,

6:36

and I ended up working for

6:39

one of the gentlemen that was

6:41

my boss when I worked at

6:43

Atari. He was actually the same

6:45

guy that had a, you know,

6:47

tell me the bad news. Oh,

6:50

well, sorry, we got to let

6:52

you go. So, and his name

6:54

is Gary Shober. Gary's a great

6:56

guy. He's got a great family.

6:59

They treated me like family when

7:01

I got back down to New

7:03

Jersey. They watched out for me,

7:05

etc., etc. So I'm very indebted

7:08

to him and his wife and

7:10

their kids. And you know, as

7:12

it turns out now, the company

7:14

that I work for was Berkeley

7:17

Veratronics. And we worked out of

7:19

a small building in Piscataway. And

7:21

I did technician work and and

7:23

Gary is just got this amazing

7:25

mind. Several patents to his name

7:28

for electronics security electronics. We worked

7:30

on a lot of great projects

7:32

that you know may have affected

7:34

you know where we are in

7:37

the world today with that stuff.

7:39

But I didn't really know him

7:41

that well when I worked at

7:43

Atari because he was more of

7:46

a manager. above my pay grade

7:48

obviously. And I think he managed

7:50

the office for a while while

7:52

he was there. And I believe

7:55

he. was right

7:57

there to the

7:59

end with Steve,

8:01

so. So I

8:03

believe you started at Atari

8:05

about July 1982, more or

8:08

less. When about, did you

8:10

leave? Were you there for

8:12

the transition to the Tramiel?

8:14

I don't believe I was.

8:16

So that was July they

8:18

took over. Yeah, I knew

8:20

the names. Um,

8:22

and so yeah, so maybe

8:24

it was 84 when I

8:26

left, um, Maybe summer, I'm

8:28

not really sure. I I

8:31

mean, I've got some. you

8:33

know, courage and things that. Um...

8:37

Like, I've got, you know,

8:40

there's my Atari medical

8:42

card. Nice. And

8:45

this is a,

8:47

all these, I think these are all

8:49

Atari cars. So, So, so basically the

8:51

80 issue this to us, I don't

8:53

know if it was every quarter or.

8:56

but we here do. sign

8:58

them and keep them for, I think it

9:00

was for anything. anything

9:02

medical that we had to deal with.

9:04

It's amazing you kept all that stuff.

9:06

Well, you know, it's, I'm a collector.

9:08

This is my First

9:10

we

9:12

assignment. Assignment This is my

9:15

that's actually my Atari

9:17

business card. And

9:20

And this is my

9:23

WCI labs business card.

9:25

Thanks. And think

9:27

this is yeah, WCI lab, it's

9:29

actually a photo ID. So

9:32

officially you're an employee of WCI

9:35

which was Well, officially

9:37

I was working for

9:39

WIA first, which is

9:41

a Warner Electroalamic. And

9:43

then I worked for Atari Inc. And

9:46

then Steve made a deal

9:49

with Steve Ross, I

9:51

believe. to transition

9:53

to WCI Labs.

9:55

So still for

9:57

Atari. but we were

9:59

treated as a. separate entity. entity. Again,

10:01

you know, things get know, things get into

10:03

a lot of politics, a lot

10:05

of things that were, that I had no idea

10:08

had no idea about at the

10:10

time. actually been pretty educated with

10:12

with book. book. And like I

10:14

I said, some of the the that

10:16

I've heard, I've heard yours specifically, I

10:19

I picked up a a name that

10:21

I had forgotten about. was like, yeah,

10:23

I remember that guy. remember Don't remember real

10:25

well, but I remember the name. I remember

10:28

the name. And So this past year,

10:30

I really spent some

10:32

time. time calling my notes

10:34

my notes together. try to piece

10:37

try to piece together who these

10:39

people were. to Kurt. I mean,

10:41

to Kurt, mean, Kurt was

10:44

for me in that for me

10:46

in that respect he really He

10:48

really helped me remember things

10:50

that I'd forgotten about. forgotten about

10:52

projects, people. We

10:54

talked talked about know how he

10:56

got into it. it. And ultimately

10:59

it ended up turning out

11:01

that out was a dumpster diver.

11:03

diver. Yeah, yeah. And, and I didn't know

11:05

that, I found it humorous, but. the

11:07

same time, it At the same time,

11:09

was like, You know, what he You know, what

11:11

he did was brilliant. went out and he

11:13

actually went out of he actually saved

11:15

a lot of history. Yeah, he did

11:18

people got to see I've never been

11:20

to the part was part of the

11:22

goal was he was actually gonna come

11:24

to my house up here in Syracuse Syracuse.

11:26

And we were gonna sit down

11:28

and down and chit chat, compare

11:30

notes. I was was going to

11:32

show him my my 600. And the the

11:35

revelation I got from him was

11:37

that he that he the second one

11:39

I built one I I was

11:41

at was at W. C. I. Labs. We

11:43

built two of those. two of those prototypes.

11:46

The 600 Excel. Yeah. I

11:48

actually breadboarded both of

11:50

those and worked with Bob.

11:52

Bob. and Glenn Bowles and

11:55

Phil DeRue were my

11:57

three my three

11:59

primary engineers. and they would they

12:01

would give me fixes and then, you you know,

12:03

they'd be in their office doing their thing.

12:05

their be I'd be the fixes,

12:07

cutting traces, doing jumpers, it

12:09

was a mess, but. It

12:12

was a know you how those things start

12:14

out they how out with a great

12:16

idea they get They start out

12:18

with a idea. They get

12:20

done. designs done. I I

12:22

remember that they had, I think, about

12:24

10 boards that were sent to us.

12:26

sent to us they had to each

12:28

be numbered and they had to be

12:30

accounted for and you had to sign off on these

12:32

things. had to sign off on remember starting them

12:35

and, you know, it probably took

12:37

months to get it all together

12:39

to where to we could

12:41

say okay. together to send this to

12:43

say okay let's send let's see, you

12:45

know, what their feedback is.

12:47

know Now, the dynamic at

12:49

that time was always time was there

12:51

was always a rub between New

12:53

York and New York and California. you

12:56

know, I don't know if it

12:58

was if it was one what it

13:00

was, but. what it was know,

13:02

it obviously caused some angst.

13:04

angst everybody involved.

13:06

involved. Luckily I wasn't really

13:08

involved with all of that all of

13:10

that that there was, that I know,

13:12

there I don't want to say

13:14

animosity. was. say animosity You

13:17

know, you know maybe ego you know they

13:19

want to know, they want to come up

13:21

with the ideas and we're not good enough

13:23

because we're, you know, we're not not

13:25

corporate Sunnyvale. So, but yeah,

13:27

it was it was a really yeah,

13:30

it was it was a really interesting

13:32

dynamic and like I I said, I

13:34

got the first one done done and we

13:36

kept we kept that one in

13:38

our lab. And then I duplicated we

13:40

We did a second one. I

13:42

sent that to California. to California and

13:44

as far as far as I know, it disappeared

13:46

off the face of the of the earth until

13:48

I talked to Kurt and talk

13:51

like, well, I got, I was like, well,

13:53

I got I I want to share with you. you.

13:55

And that share was that he was that

13:57

he actually had that second

13:59

one. one. I've never been able

14:01

to verify it because we never

14:04

got together. But the one thing

14:06

he did tell me was that

14:08

his didn't work. I said, well,

14:10

Kurt, I gotcha. Mine still works.

14:12

I haven't checked it, you know,

14:15

30 years or so, but I

14:17

said I had the working prototype.

14:19

And, you know, my thought was

14:21

Bob gave it to me. And

14:23

that was a great gesture. I

14:26

wanted to give it back to

14:28

Bob. Unfortunately,

14:30

Bob passed away and I

14:33

didn't know about it. I

14:35

found out from Steve, I'd

14:37

been able to get contact

14:39

Steve and found out that

14:42

he passed away. Bob was

14:44

married, but he never had

14:46

kids. So, you know, so

14:48

I kept it for 40

14:51

plus years now. And, you

14:53

know, I've just recently gotten

14:55

rid of it. I

15:00

had to, you know, make

15:02

bills, basically, and I had

15:04

to let it go, which

15:06

is a shame, but I

15:09

did try to sell it

15:11

locally to a museum out

15:13

in Rochester. The strong? Yes,

15:16

the strong museum. I approached

15:18

them, and unfortunately we couldn't

15:20

agree on terms. I had

15:23

a more substantial offer. from

15:25

a collector internationally and he's

15:27

now in possession of a

15:30

lot of my collection from

15:32

that time. And my hope

15:34

is that he'll do the

15:36

right thing and, you know,

15:39

get it out there so

15:41

people can enjoy what that

15:43

is for what it is.

15:46

Because I don't think a

15:48

lot of people really understood,

15:50

you know, the significance of

15:53

that computer and what it

15:55

means in terms of the

15:57

evolution of the industry of

16:00

the Atari specifically. I

16:02

mean, let's talk about let's talk

16:04

about that. What what

16:06

think what do you think that that picture

16:08

of the evolution of Atari.

16:10

the big picture of it was

16:13

of Atari? know, was what do you

16:15

got there, you behind you do you

16:17

got there, an was half the size

16:20

of that. So it was half the size

16:22

think it Yeah. It had, I

16:24

think it had board. on board

16:26

a slot. a slot. plus

16:28

the external slots on the slots on

16:30

the backside. It had basic on

16:32

for the first time. first time.

16:35

that was a huge deal. deal. I

16:37

didn't, you you know, I

16:39

mean, I didn't realize

16:41

the significance and like I

16:43

said, until I've really

16:46

revised the history and the

16:48

back on back on, like Kurt's book specifically,

16:50

to see see like he was

16:52

able to piece was able to piece

16:54

together things that I didn't know

16:56

about that were were going on in California.

16:59

So, you know, hearing about

17:01

know, hearing about

17:03

the difference with

17:06

the design ideas and everything,

17:08

design ideas and everything, always you

17:10

know, a everything was, was always

17:12

about me as a which, you know,

17:14

for me as a technician, I

17:16

could care less. I

17:18

felt bad for the engineers because they really

17:20

had to dumb down things. things. to make

17:22

it worth you cents in Taiwan

17:24

to put this together or whatever

17:26

it was. together, whatever really

17:28

understood that, never appreciated it. I

17:31

do and I understand better now

17:33

as I'm older. do and I But,

17:35

you know, I was now as

17:37

I'm older. But you know, years old

17:39

was 27, 28 I was new to I was

17:42

business world, know, I world,

17:44

you mostly retail. and

17:46

things before that. before that.

17:48

So For me, it was an

17:50

exciting time. time. a great learning

17:53

time. learning time. I,

17:55

the you know, I had some of

17:57

the smartest people in the world around me. me.

18:00

at least in my world.

18:02

Like Steve was just amazing

18:04

Steve, Steve Mayor. He just,

18:06

he always shocked me and

18:08

surprised me with how deep

18:10

he was, but humble and

18:13

and he and his wife

18:15

Nancy were such nice people.

18:17

Again, I got treated like

18:19

family with them as well.

18:21

So, you know, sometimes that

18:24

would be Steve's personal chauffeur

18:26

and take him to different

18:28

business meetings and things like

18:30

that. But yeah, the 600

18:32

Excel compact size, the amount

18:35

of fire power on board

18:37

was was unprecedented at that

18:39

time. And I think that

18:41

was also the beginning of

18:43

when they started talking about

18:46

doing business things with this

18:48

machine. You know, I mean,

18:50

we had development tools around

18:52

us that were like PDP

18:54

11s and things like that,

18:57

the X machines that, you

18:59

know, way over my head,

19:01

but I understood how that

19:03

worked. But I also got

19:05

to see how long it

19:08

would take for, you know,

19:10

one of the game programmers

19:12

to program a certain animation

19:14

sequence could take hours for

19:16

the computer to crunch it

19:19

all down. to get it

19:21

to the state where we

19:23

could put it on a

19:25

ram, put it in a

19:27

cart, and we could play

19:30

it at home. So, yeah.

19:32

So how long did it

19:34

take to get the, that

19:36

prototype 600 Excel to work,

19:38

where you said months? Oh,

19:41

probably a couple months, yeah.

19:43

I don't have a timeline

19:45

on it. I kept a

19:47

lot of the paperwork, but

19:49

we'd given me, you know,

19:52

personal notes on it. some

19:54

PCB changes, you know, every

19:56

time we we'd have they'd

19:58

find a problem. I'd I'd correct

20:00

it based on what they they found. We'd

20:03

try try it again, test it. And, you

20:05

know, you know, was for was

20:07

for the evolution of getting

20:09

the PC right first. before

20:11

we we shipped it But I

20:13

those first two prototypes were just full

20:15

of wires full I can send you

20:18

send all the pictures and stuff I've got.

20:20

So if you need that. So if you need

20:22

let me know let me know

20:24

because I guess, yeah, yeah, I I mean, I've got.

20:26

got a lot of lot of those things

20:28

I've got Well, I had the with

20:31

each of the with each of

20:33

the chips. And this year this year I

20:35

went back and then started trying

20:37

to locate. to Okay, this is the

20:39

this is This is the GTIA,

20:41

things like that. the GTIA things saw

20:43

on your So I saw you had

20:45

posted photo of the cover of

20:47

your had notebook. photo of I've got

20:50

calls. of you scanned that? notebook.

20:53

Yeah, I've I've probably taken

20:55

pictures. Here's, here's have you scanned

20:57

that? And that's the the, yeah, So

21:00

that's the first one I

21:02

got, probably, the I'm guessing I

21:04

got, probably, I'm And then this is

21:06

the then this is the W.C.I. conversion.

21:08

And you know, I I mean, me,

21:10

they're both both empty empty really didn't

21:13

do the type of stuff that

21:15

these were meant for. These were

21:17

really that these were So this for. These were

21:19

really meant more. Yeah. So this

21:21

is 1031 that's the

21:24

that's the W. And Gary

21:26

Gary actually to to sign

21:28

off it. So we were were given

21:30

these, even the the given

21:32

these. given to write

21:34

down things. Anything that you

21:37

that you thought of

21:39

or. you were was important. to

21:41

supposed to write down in these books.

21:43

books. I was a I was a

21:45

busy guy really wasn't really

21:47

wasn't my realm, know, like, well,

21:49

I didn't Design anything

21:51

there. there. I I didn't come

21:53

up with any ideas for anything there. for

21:56

anything book the book

21:58

was their legal way of capturing

22:00

the technology. Everybody had to

22:02

sign the book. had to hand

22:04

that in, you know, if and

22:07

when you left, it was the

22:09

property of Warner Communications at that

22:11

time. So do you remember

22:13

what you it felt like when

22:15

you saw that machine turn on

22:17

for the first time? Yeah.

22:21

Yeah, I kind of do because

22:23

when I started there, I think

22:25

I think the first thing that

22:27

they gave me to play with

22:29

and literally that's what they wanted

22:31

me to do was the 400.

22:35

And I think at the time,

22:37

I think that the largest

22:39

ROM was 4k. And,

22:41

you know, I mean, for

22:43

somebody that came from the Hicks

22:45

and is now playing with

22:48

this, this, you know, Wonder Machine,

22:51

it was pretty fascinating, you know,

22:53

as as basic as these

22:55

things were then, 4k was a

22:57

lot of memory. was like,

23:00

wow. And then you could expand

23:02

up to, I think, maybe

23:04

up to 16k or something like

23:06

that was like, who could

23:08

afford that? know, I know the

23:11

stuff was expensive. Obviously, we

23:13

we had hands on to pretty

23:15

much anything we wanted at

23:17

that point. The checkbook was open,

23:19

I believe. So

23:22

you got to take one home. And,

23:25

you know, you had one at

23:27

work that you could work on. And

23:29

they would give me, you know,

23:31

little things to, I think it was

23:33

more really to help me understand

23:35

the technology. So they'd give me, oh,

23:37

hey, why don't you see here?

23:40

I got some books. Now, why don't

23:42

you learn a basic. So, you

23:44

know, this is the manual that came

23:46

in the book inside basic. Sure.

23:48

Yeah. And I remember, when this book

23:50

came out, I was like, oh

23:53

my God, I got to have that

23:55

book. And, you

23:57

know, you spent literally

23:59

hours. taking the programs

24:01

out of this, typing them in, saving them

24:03

the cassette deck. And

24:05

that was always the hard part. was like, oh,

24:07

gee, something happened. Um,

24:09

but yeah, uh, turning the,

24:12

the. the machine

24:14

that I actually. built together

24:16

with Bob. and

24:18

Phil and Glenn. was

24:20

pretty awesome to see it come

24:22

up, see up, see the prompt

24:24

there. try some,

24:26

you know, some programming

24:28

on it. Make sure

24:31

that the ports were working, joysticks

24:33

and all that stuff. It It was

24:36

It was very heavy stuff, you

24:38

know, but like I said, I'm

24:40

a white Neophyte

24:43

in that whole realm of what's

24:46

going on is like, wow, it's

24:48

That's amazing. How did you guys do that? And

24:51

I remember very specifically

24:53

sitting in Bob's office.

24:56

with the three engineers and they would have

24:59

these graphs and charts and things up

25:01

on the wall. And I

25:03

remember Glenn explaining to me at

25:05

one point. how RAS

25:07

and CAS works. Okay, what

25:09

is RAS and CAS? What

25:12

does that mean? And they had timing diagrams

25:14

that they were trying to get this thing to.

25:17

to work in a specific. sequence

25:19

of command orders.

25:22

to get each chip to

25:24

talk to each other in

25:26

milliseconds or whatever it ended up

25:28

being. But

25:30

it was just amazing that they could think of

25:33

that. on that level and for me it

25:35

was Hey, this is a

25:37

great toy. I can get to

25:39

play this game finally. you know? So

25:41

just two totally different worlds, but

25:43

I got an appreciation. for

25:46

what they do and how

25:48

they did it. and how

25:50

dedicated they were. They were

25:52

just pretty amazing at that stuff.

25:56

I've seen you mention some online, some other

25:58

projects that you worked on. at your your

26:00

time at Atari. I I have a list. I

26:03

don't know. order they came the order

26:05

they came in. I don't know

26:07

how much you worked on

26:09

them or how important, but you

26:11

had mentioned had Atari the Atari you

26:13

had mentioned you had mentioned you had

26:15

mentioned mentioned video disks, devices, and maybe you worked

26:17

maybe you worked with the alien

26:19

group, to know about I wanna know

26:21

about all those things. I want to

26:23

know about all those I don't know that

26:25

I had anything to do with

26:27

that. I know. do with that. I know. At

26:30

some point, I I one of of

26:32

boxes that Mike had designed. had

26:34

designed And I gave it

26:36

to my brother. to my brother. would take a

26:38

lot of the things the things that I

26:40

had access to, you know, that

26:42

were ended up you know that

26:44

were ended up being my property.

26:46

that or most gave all of

26:48

that, or most of my collection, to

26:51

my older brother. he had because

26:53

he had taken an interest

26:55

in it know, my know, my interest

26:57

waned was outside of Atari

26:59

at that time. time. But

27:01

I know I know he's got

27:03

the Mike Matthews box. The robotics worked

27:05

on, I actually built two

27:08

or three different robots for

27:10

them. three different robots for them.

27:12

the The laser thing was, was a,

27:14

I believe the guy's name

27:16

was Marty name was Marty ended

27:18

up being a up

27:20

in Mike in

27:22

my brownstone, upper I think

27:25

he was on the top floor. on

27:27

the top floor. And, you and,

27:29

you know, oddly, we met through

27:31

Atari. And that was about that

27:33

was storage using these storage,

27:35

using these things for storage,

27:37

you know, gaming. you know, I'm not sure

27:40

what You know, I'm not sure what the other

27:42

projects were at the time, but I remember. you

27:44

know, You know, they were like

27:47

12 inch platters very, very expensive. You

27:49

know, everything was very,

27:51

very expensive back then.

27:53

expensive 300 then, you know, were

27:55

expensive. modems were expensive.

27:57

I I think at the time. time.

28:00

I I was in a, just a

28:02

a one one

28:05

bedroom or no bedroom. like

28:07

a a split level. I

28:09

think it was it ,000 a

28:11

month for rent. $1,000 a month

28:13

for rent. So, you know,

28:15

so you're paying paying

28:18

$200 something something, a good

28:20

chunk out of your

28:22

chunk out of your, your paycheck.

28:24

Yeah. let's see, see. So

28:27

the robotics projects.

28:29

is probably close

28:32

to the to point of point of Atari

28:34

We had a lot of people

28:36

there. had a I believe

28:38

we people floors. believe we

28:40

occupied West 42nd West

28:42

East 42nd, I'm sorry.

28:45

East 42nd. I'm it

28:47

was It was 42nd and 2nd Ave.

28:49

And we had two floors

28:51

and certain people were on

28:53

the the floor. You've

28:55

talked to talked to Greg Squires,

28:58

right? right? Yes, I have. Okay, so

29:00

Greg, so I I think, think

29:02

think in his mention on

29:04

your podcast. podcast, believe he was

29:06

on the upper floor. I think

29:09

And I think it was maybe six and

29:11

were on. were on. So he had so

29:13

he had one group of guys then

29:15

And then of the of the guys I worked

29:17

with were on the other floor. floor, and I

29:19

and I believe Steve and Nancy were on

29:21

that floor. floor. The

29:23

engineers, Gary was on that floor.

29:25

Greg was on that floor for

29:27

a short period of time. period of

29:29

time. And and then we had the

29:31

back corner, we had a a

29:34

lab that I I started out, I

29:36

was the only technician and then we

29:38

heard this guy, we heard this guy I think was

29:40

in there. was in was

29:42

another gentleman named Mickey and I don't

29:44

know his last name. and I don't know

29:46

his last name. But as you know like

29:48

like things that you guys

29:50

offer. guys offer. It's really really spurred me

29:52

to try to piece to try to piece

29:55

some of this together. I think it

29:57

is I think it is important, very

29:59

specifically. for the

30:01

people that want to

30:03

understand more about. everything that

30:05

went on Atari, know, not a

30:07

lot of people know about the difference

30:10

between Atari and WCI Labs. And

30:12

what we did in New York

30:14

is a really small portion of the

30:17

overall picture of the Atari structure. but

30:20

it's a really important part. Yeah, Tari,

30:22

I mean, really just for a while,

30:24

for a minute invested a lot into. R

30:27

&D and trying to in different various

30:29

labs and trying to create things

30:31

in Grass Valley and Sunnyvale and And

30:35

you guys, and And

30:37

yeah, they worked on

30:39

some. amazing projects that some came to

30:41

be and some didn't, so. Well, I

30:43

mean, like Atari tell, It's

30:46

funny because since moving to Syracuse,

30:48

it had to be early

30:50

nineties. I saw it in

30:52

an AT &T store and I

30:54

was blown away. I'm

30:56

like, wow, that's what we

30:58

worked on Picture Yeah. Yeah.

31:00

And it was, you know,

31:03

wife at the time, I

31:05

was like, you can't believe

31:07

how this affecting me were at the

31:09

moment seeing this thing sitting there in

31:11

Syracuse, New York. I

31:14

remember, You know,

31:16

I don't know, know, I don't remember much about

31:18

the project itself. I taking

31:20

it to

31:22

a meeting for Steve or

31:24

with Steve. someplace in midtown. Uh,

31:27

I know that Steve and I went

31:29

out to AT &T

31:31

at some point, Bell Labs

31:33

in Jersey. And the

31:35

reason I remember that was because I was

31:37

just chauffeur that day. and I

31:39

think they had like a Mercedes. I've never been

31:41

a Mercedes in my life. And

31:43

I remember being on, I

31:45

think it was the Jersey

31:48

Turnpike. and I passed the cop on

31:50

my left -hand side that was in the passing lane.

31:52

and I'm like, yeah, not, not to worry about

31:54

that. I looked down at the speedometer, I was

31:57

doing like 90 miles an hour. I

31:59

was shocked. was like, like, and he

32:01

didn't stop me. stop me. But that's

32:03

what I I you know, things

32:05

like that. things like that. But yeah, I yeah,

32:07

I remember taking them there and I there, and

32:09

I remember my other other

32:12

association with AT &T was. was

32:14

learning about the C I

32:16

don't know if they had know if they at

32:18

the time. plus out at getting

32:20

a book getting a the

32:22

guy that wrote that wrote the C

32:24

language and and looking at some of

32:26

those things. things. Like I I said, was

32:28

kind of on the periphery of of

32:31

learning and being being

32:33

mentored along that curve.

32:35

a really, really It was

32:37

a really, really steep curve, know, though guys

32:39

guys that we had were, amazing

32:41

to watch to watch them work. it

32:43

I mean, it was a great atmosphere. but

32:46

they but they worked their asses off.

32:48

They really worked hard to get. like

32:51

I said, I said, simple animation

32:53

working. and you know, they would explain

32:55

to me to me about was the

32:57

first time I'd heard that

32:59

term. time I'd heard that term and you

33:01

know, Bob would teach me

33:03

about the refresh rate on video

33:05

and how they would how they would

33:07

use the time in between.

33:09

in the screen of the

33:11

screen top upper top left hand

33:14

corner. that for that refresh, how

33:16

they could use the time for

33:18

that. to do to do things in

33:20

the background and then reintroduce

33:22

the animation. So... so Yeah, I

33:24

mean, I learn a I mean, I learned

33:26

a lot of information that's useless to me today,

33:28

but it's nice to know that, yeah, okay, I

33:30

yeah, remember that. yeah, Once somebody starts

33:32

talking about it, it gets me

33:34

on a roll. it gets me on a roll. So,

33:36

but yeah, the robotics, basically, basically out

33:39

started out with bought We

33:41

bought kits probably like everybody

33:43

else. else. Keith kit and and that sort

33:45

of thing. thing. The what I'm sorry, like

33:47

Keith Kit robots that sort that sort of yes, yes, yeah,

33:49

one of them one of them other one I

33:52

found and I think I posted it

33:54

on one of the on one There

33:56

were two were two forums that I

33:58

frequented last year year or. earlier

34:00

this year. year. And I would find

34:02

would find some

34:04

of about some of the

34:06

robotics like this is a piece is a piece

34:08

from. of the one of the

34:11

robots that we worked on. Looking

34:13

at a little little. glass or plastic cube

34:15

about an inch on each side side maybe

34:17

sort of logo on it that

34:19

I don't recognize. on Yeah, that was

34:21

the logo for the, Yeah, that don't know

34:23

if it was the, I or something

34:25

like that. I got all the information

34:27

like like I said, I'll share all

34:29

that. and I can, like a

34:31

lot of this already on those

34:33

two forums. already on those two long

34:35

threads and threads and I, I saved

34:37

all of that. of that. But that

34:39

was, that was probably like a

34:42

a $2 ,000 robot at

34:44

the time. And it it was

34:46

just a simple arm. And I don't mean

34:48

don't mean to denigrate it

34:50

by saying simple, but. simple, you know,

34:52

in today's terms, it was very,

34:54

very, very simple. simple.

34:57

And it had, I had, it had an

34:59

think it had an

35:01

RS -232 interface. hook up that we

35:03

could hook up to a

35:05

computer you know, with the right programming. you

35:08

could make it. something,

35:10

something, which was amazing. it

35:12

up, move it, Pick it up, move

35:14

it. was it. it. was a

35:17

was that time frame. But

35:19

that was a major the, that

35:21

time frame, just, you know, especially

35:23

in the... market. guess

35:25

the educational and commercial in these

35:28

things were being used in industry

35:30

or just being developed for industry.

35:33

they were they were very, very expensive.

35:36

So the the first one that we

35:38

got was that of that nature nature

35:40

was, you know, a crane

35:43

arm. arm with a with

35:45

a gripper. and it was it

35:47

was basically just

35:49

a that you populated you populated

35:51

with the chips that they gave

35:53

you you and carriers. and sided

35:56

it all together. together, and

35:58

it it probably had just,

36:00

you know, a very basic. uh, interface.

36:02

interface, probably the

36:05

smaller D sub, uh, connector.

36:09

that went to the Atari, I

36:11

believe. And I

36:14

had to learn the fourth programming language. Again,

36:18

it just like, okay, Tim, just take

36:20

this and do do what you can and

36:22

let's get it up and running. So you

36:25

know, so I'd spend a lot of time, you know,

36:27

on and off the clock. trying

36:29

to get this thing going because yeah, mean, I

36:31

knew it was important to them. I knew it was

36:33

a big deal. And I

36:35

was, you know, I was now

36:37

getting very, very hungry for the

36:39

knowledge and wanting to learn this

36:41

stuff. and be helpful. So

36:44

I would, you know, I do things

36:46

on my own time, which, you know,

36:48

mean, just part of my traits. I

36:51

do that all the time still now. My

36:53

wife hates me for it sometimes, but. You

36:56

know, she can't beat it out of me. Yeah.

37:00

Yeah, so I did that first one.

37:02

I think we did a, I know I

37:04

did a Heathcat one. And

37:06

that was, you know, I

37:09

don't like R2 -D2 type of a

37:11

thing, you know, it had wheels on

37:13

it. It had an arm

37:15

on it I think

37:17

it had a top turret

37:19

that moved it had some sensors,

37:22

radar type sensors. that

37:25

would be for proximity

37:27

to walls. And, You

37:29

know, it was really the beginning of

37:31

all that technology that's on one of

37:33

these zoom

37:36

bots or whatever they have

37:38

that sweep the floor. That's

37:40

what that was all about really

37:42

that first part of that technology

37:44

and then what are we

37:46

40 years on and now it's

37:48

a commercial home product. And

37:52

And I guess they go in here sometimes

37:54

and run after the cat and whatnot, but. Did

38:00

you work on any in projects that we

38:02

haven't talked about? that we well,

38:04

there was a guy Well, there was a

38:06

guy there I know if I've got

38:08

his name or not, but. I've

38:11

got his name or not,

38:13

but Sandy was Another

38:15

level of engineer. of engineer.

38:17

And Sandy was there

38:19

working on laser projects.

38:21

I don't know I don't

38:23

know what they ever ended up

38:26

doing that, but we had this we had

38:28

this table. that came

38:30

in and it was all steel

38:32

construction. and

38:34

it had pre-threaded

38:37

holes in the entire in

38:39

the entire top. I'm guessing it

38:41

was like a four by eight sheet

38:43

of plywood. So all the

38:45

screw the screw holes

38:47

were to keep everything locked down.

38:50

in precise spots. know,

38:52

I don't know what know, I

38:54

don't know what you remember about lasers

38:57

of that time. time. But basically

38:59

laser was a very dangerous dangerous

39:02

item. to wear special

39:04

glasses. special You had to be

39:06

extremely careful. to be For them

39:08

to get it to split

39:10

to color ranges, they to ranges.

39:13

They use off the split

39:15

aspects, the it ended up

39:18

being. whatever it

39:20

and I being. And I oddly

39:22

enough in this in this

39:25

that we were in. were in. this this thing

39:27

was so large and so heavy they

39:29

actually had to put it put it on top

39:32

of the elevator. to get it get

39:34

it to the floor. they had to

39:36

hire an had to hire an

39:38

outside firm get it to get it

39:40

into. put it on top of the put it

39:42

on top of the elevator, to it

39:44

up to 10, and or 10. it from there

39:46

and get it it from there and get

39:48

it into the room. mean, this is not

39:50

something that guys guys could just stand around and

39:53

pick it up and move it. it.

39:55

But once it was in place,

39:57

you know, know, and that was the

39:59

purpose of the. was to keep it to keep

40:01

it as concrete as possible, no

40:03

vibrations, et cetera, et cetera. All

40:05

I recall of All I recall of that

40:08

a it was in a room, I

40:10

remember would would spend hours and days. all the

40:12

little bits and all the little bits

40:14

and pieces together, clamping everything down and

40:16

then finally turning on the laser for

40:18

the first time. time to get get some

40:20

result. You I have no idea what they

40:22

used it for though. it I don't recall

40:25

much of that that I said, I I was usually...

40:27

I I was available to all of

40:29

these guys for things that they needed,

40:31

including, you know, running out to the you

40:33

store to out to buy this or

40:36

you know, to that. or, you I

40:38

did a lot of that did a lot

40:40

of that, go for type thing. But yeah,

40:42

there was there was stuff going on around

40:44

me that I didn't know about. know

40:46

about, you know, like talking back

40:48

to Squires I know he I know

40:50

he had projects going on that

40:53

that. I wasn't really involved with

40:55

too much. too You know, or there,

40:57

I was a cursory part of.

40:59

of getting something for

41:01

them or, you know, maybe

41:04

breadboarding something. sure I did

41:06

a bunch of that stuff. stuff. I

41:08

just don't recall recall for his thing.

41:10

Like I said, my I said, my

41:13

and fondest memory was was

41:15

with Bob. Bob and Phil and Glenn, who

41:17

I ended up up. Glenn and Phil

41:19

I ended up working for

41:21

New Jersey Gary, he hired on, you know,

41:23

the guys that hired with in New guys that

41:25

he worked with in New York. own business

41:28

he started his own business over in Jersey.

41:30

them for a good couple got to work with them

41:32

for a good couple of years. And

41:34

oddly enough, of the forums and I saw the

41:36

son was on one of the I said, And

41:38

I saw the last name and I reached out

41:40

to him. I said, I you know, was

41:42

your dad's name with you, you did, you did you, dad,

41:44

dad, it was, I said, well, I and you

41:46

dad, and you, you know. you, and you, That was

41:49

very very very interesting

41:51

because you know know, I mean,

41:53

I'm sure about Glenn about Glenn

41:55

having children, but but you know You

41:57

know, there were probably two three years.

42:00

maybe at that time. But

42:03

we work together to piece

42:05

out the fact that you

42:07

know, somebody had an 800, it

42:09

said WCI labs was stencil on

42:11

it. and I don't ever remember

42:14

seeing that ever. So

42:16

maybe that was after my time there. But

42:18

he verified that, yeah. my

42:21

dad's got one or

42:23

I've got dads and had

42:25

that stencil on it.

42:27

Steve Elper is, he

42:29

was like my buddy there and

42:31

he was I think a Queen's

42:33

guy, but he was another amazing

42:35

kid. I mean, he... he He

42:37

outshined me in so many ways

42:40

doing the techs up that was

42:42

his background. That wasn't mine. I

42:44

did it for guitar electronics and

42:46

my dad worked for. Western Electric,

42:48

so I hear that stuff around me

42:50

all the time. I I

42:52

learned how to solder and put

42:54

things together. Not

42:56

necessarily breadboarding computers,

42:58

obviously, but. You

43:01

know, it's all related and once you get

43:03

really good at soldering. everything else

43:05

is easy. I don't have to

43:07

understand the technology. I have to

43:09

do is read either the engineer's

43:11

notes or a schematic to figure

43:13

out, okay, point A to point

43:15

B, okay, solder those two points,

43:17

put a jumper, cut it, whatever

43:19

you do. So, So, but Steve,

43:21

not the sidetrack, but Steve. Kind

43:24

of mentored me as well and

43:26

he again he, to me he had

43:28

a brilliant mind He was

43:30

a programmer and he loved his gaming stuff.

43:33

But he was also an

43:35

engineer of sorts and

43:37

a great technician. He, He's

43:40

the first guy that taught me about pirating.

43:43

He knew how to take

43:46

the disc drives. and

43:48

then put a switch on them to make

43:50

them, you know, do whatever they're here

43:52

to do to bypass whatever the latest technology

43:54

was to stop you from copying a

43:56

disc. He's the one that

43:58

showed me how to punch the side of a disc. you know,

44:00

with know, with the that that

44:02

type of stuff. But yeah, I mean, he was

44:04

a great mean, he was a great

44:06

kid. His wife was also named Nancy. I

44:09

mean, he always had the greatest

44:11

new I mean, he always yeah, here,

44:13

you the greatest new software. try this,

44:15

and to copy see if this and

44:17

And see if this works. And

44:19

he would breadboard some stuff

44:21

like that that and out how to

44:23

get around these things. so that we

44:25

that we could get the most use out of. of.

44:28

you you you you take a

44:30

single side floppy, cut it, flip it, flip

44:32

it over, a you've got a double side

44:34

of floppy. learned a lot of a

44:36

lot of stuff from him that that It

44:38

was It was useful, know, for us

44:40

at the time it was, you know, you

44:42

know, like I said, you didn't think about didn't

44:44

think about the legal you you just thought

44:46

about the fun. It's like, I was like, we

44:48

can do this. do Oh this, nobody knows

44:50

this, but this, the idea. Here's how you

44:52

do this. here's how you do this, and, and,

44:55

So, you know, like know, like I said,

44:57

I learned a lot of technology

44:59

through those channels. channels, which were obviously

45:01

not, endorsed, but

45:03

that's how we learn. I mean, but

45:06

in That's how we was mean, like everybody

45:08

in like, it's of like that. was like.

45:11

It's not about stealing anything, it's

45:13

about learning how things work. a floppy disk

45:15

Okay, floppy disk has this ability. Why

45:17

don't they use the second side? Well,

45:20

because. because. Maybe there's some flaws on

45:22

it. on it. Therefore, you get the one

45:24

side to write on, the other side,

45:26

they other guarantee. Who cares? who cares 27

45:28

years old, who cares about that? Just give

45:30

me the give me the Let me

45:32

have me have twice the storage I didn't

45:34

have and I'll take my chances

45:36

with it. with it. So Yeah, pretty

45:38

cool stuff. We all were were looking

45:41

at each other's products. I

45:43

remember. remember Commodore 64 coming out. I

45:45

the VIC the Vic 20. I

45:47

I remember the first IBM

45:49

PC coming out. at all of

45:52

that And we looked at all of

45:54

that technology. It was important well, you gotta

45:56

to see what your your doing. doing

45:58

and how does that work? work. Um, you

46:00

know, at Atari, we had

46:02

a guy named Jim Hannon.

46:05

that I think he, I don't

46:07

know what his role was. If

46:09

he was a financial guy. or, you

46:11

know, something behind the scenes administrator,

46:14

but the mindset. Uh, do

46:16

you remember that computer? Yeah. Yeah.

46:18

some of Atari alums went and created

46:20

the mindset corporation So So somehow

46:22

we were involved with that. I remember

46:24

that being in our office, Jim

46:26

was there, Jim was an employee. But

46:29

again, he was kind of out of my

46:31

realm of, know, he was on the end of

46:33

the hall with Steve and a

46:35

guy named Jeff Frankel I think was I

46:37

think Jeff was a finance

46:39

guy for us and I think Jim came

46:41

later on, but the mindset was a whole new

46:44

thing. I

46:46

remember them talking, don't know, maybe,

46:48

maybe this is a bad memory,

46:50

but. I remember something about

46:52

maybe the next computer, I'm not sure.

46:56

But there were things like that floating around

46:58

our office all the time and yeah, sometimes you'd

47:00

see it. You know,

47:02

I had no interest in things that

47:04

weren't Atari at that was like, yeah,

47:06

whatever, that's, you know, I

47:08

wasn't a business guy, so I was like, you know, hey,

47:10

there's nothing to do with gaming. I

47:12

don't care about it. Um

47:15

But like I said, there were some other great

47:17

things like the robotics. We

47:19

had a division of guys

47:21

that worked for Nancy that

47:23

were. developing toys for kids,

47:25

that was really interesting. I

47:27

can't remember the kids name.

47:30

Our gentleman's name, I think it was Gary

47:32

something. But he

47:34

was, you know, vibrant. He was

47:36

really big into that toy

47:38

industry. He knew, you know, he

47:40

knew about that stuff. And he

47:42

had a group of people around him. So I've

47:44

been able to find. Uh,

47:47

you know, names that I could associate with

47:49

that. Walt was another guy that worked

47:51

there. Walt was kind of more like a

47:53

business guy, but but. he was a programmer.

47:55

you know you You guys like me

47:57

that would come in a t -shirt and

47:59

jeans, and you... hey guys, in came in

48:01

day. every day. It was just

48:03

a very very interesting eclectic mix

48:05

of people that worked there. So

48:07

yeah, that worked I said it was

48:09

yeah, so like I really

48:11

interesting atmosphere. interesting because

48:13

you got to have fun at work. have

48:16

fun at work. You didn't have, I mean,

48:18

I mean, you had pressure. but

48:20

not like we not like we

48:22

experienced today. went you went in, had

48:24

you had some things to do

48:26

today, but. but. Nobody was standing

48:28

over you. was really more of a

48:30

pride thing. a pride maybe an

48:32

ego thing. ego thing get that

48:34

done quickly and efficiently. efficiently.

48:36

What do you do with yourself

48:39

these days? days? Well, right now I'm a right

48:41

now I'm a security professional. Probably

48:44

probably from I was somewhat in was

48:46

somewhat in the computer industry.

48:48

I did desktop publishing. I I

48:50

got good at that. Did that

48:52

Did that for a number of years.

48:54

I learned how to use use Photoshop. I did

48:56

a did a lot of film

48:58

output for print, so I got to got

49:00

to learn about the printing industry and

49:03

what their needs were. and what was a

49:05

stagehand for 10 years. a stage So

49:07

I worked at a local casino I

49:09

worked boxes. casino, know,

49:11

setting up tearing down shows. up

49:14

tearing down shows years out

49:16

in Verona New York. a

49:18

place called Turning Stone know?

49:21

Casino. And then after that, I

49:23

did did. security I got got in my my

49:25

job at security was at

49:27

a local hospital. local hospital. I'm

49:29

not a not a religious guy, but I've

49:31

always felt that I was I in. put in

49:34

places that I I could do

49:36

something, maybe contribute to, hopefully. Atari

49:38

would have would have been one of

49:40

those places, like like I have idea how I

49:42

ended up there. up there. You know, it

49:44

was just, I liked music. I ended

49:47

up doing computers. From computers,

49:49

I ended up doing, you

49:51

know, more music again. So so.

49:53

it's in cycles. Now I'm back

49:55

in the security field. field

49:57

and working hotel security.

50:00

which is something new for me. If

50:02

you could send a message to the people who are

50:04

still using their Atari computers today. And

50:06

you can right now What would

50:08

you tell them? Thank

50:11

you, thank you, thank you. Well,

50:13

it does. means a lot. to

50:16

those of us that work there. At

50:19

least to me it does. Like

50:21

I said, you know, I had no idea

50:23

anybody had any interest in Atari. Any

50:26

of the any of the stuff we've tried to

50:28

talk about today. today. Yeah,

50:30

it's important. Yeah,

50:32

it's is a piece of It is

50:34

a piece of history. framed us that

50:37

has framed us where we

50:39

are today, the including the I mean,

50:41

you know. Kaye came to

50:43

to our facility. Kaye

50:45

brought in the Apple Lisa

50:47

to us to us to and check with

50:49

and check out. That was $10

50:51

,000 at the time. I got I

50:53

got hands on with that. that. Alan

50:55

Kaye brought to to us the idea

50:58

of the He got it from Xerox

51:00

got it from which is where he which is

51:02

where he worked. what it was,

51:04

what it was. And you know, when we

51:06

kind of looked at each other like, okay, how's

51:09

that going to that going to work? brought

51:11

touchscreen technology

51:14

probably brought touch screen technology to

51:16

us. He probably brought that idea. Because

51:18

I remember talking it. How do do you

51:20

touch the screen? And the cursor, how

51:22

does that does that work? that work?

51:25

capacitance. What's that? that? what

51:27

I'm You know what I'm saying? things It's

51:29

things like that. It's like. like, I've forgotten

51:32

a forgotten a lot of it. that's but

51:34

that's where it started. It started with

51:36

those guys. with It with guys like Steve

51:38

Mayer. guys like Steve Mayor. Steve

51:40

is probably, you know, I know, I

51:43

don't hear his name enough. Let's

51:45

say that way. You know, I

51:47

remember you know, I remember him talking

51:49

to me about the the 2600 he he had a

51:51

had a large hand in

51:53

that machine. machine. which is, you know,

51:55

we get everything else. And, you

51:58

know, if you know, if you think about... about

52:00

that. It's just

52:02

a small, simple idea. Somebody

52:05

germinates, and

52:07

it created this industry.

52:09

that we all enjoyed or

52:11

benefited from. And

52:13

it's nice to see that, you

52:15

know, people today still appreciate

52:17

it are still buying books on

52:19

it are still, you know,

52:22

I guess there's a revitalization of.

52:24

putting out software that'll work on a, you

52:26

know, maybe on a Mac, I'm not sure,

52:28

but. They're bringing the games back.

52:31

as simple as they were others I see a lot

52:33

of guys on the forums that are you

52:35

know, buying up old systems and

52:38

put them all back together and making

52:40

it work. enjoying

52:42

the heck out of it, which is fascinating to

52:44

me. I, you know, it's like, ah. I

52:46

don't know that I'd want go back

52:48

and visit some of those games and look

52:50

at them. They were frustrating then to

52:52

play. Um, but yeah.

52:55

It's great that there's people

52:57

And Strong Museum is amazing. They

53:00

have an amazing, amazing collection.

53:02

that you'll never get to see. or

53:05

you might get to see in parts. The the

53:07

guy was nice enough to let me go

53:10

backstage and see the backstage.

53:12

I gotta tell you, it's

53:15

mind boggling. You know, I strongly urge people

53:17

to go there and check it out. Just

53:19

go once. It's, it'll blow

53:21

your mind. It's just, it's just

53:23

like, wow. This is just like. kind

53:25

of being back and the air.

53:27

And I saw I I

53:29

believe I posted pictures, there's pictures

53:31

of programmers notes, you

53:34

know, literally graph paper showing, okay, here's,

53:36

here's why I need to turn on

53:38

a pixel to make this character happen.

53:40

But yeah, thank you, thank you, thank

53:42

you. I mean, even

53:44

for what you do, it's like, you're a

53:47

big part of. keeping

53:49

this ball rolling and putting out

53:51

great information. Like I said, you

53:54

turned me on to Greg Squires again,

53:56

which is like, wow, I haven't heard that

53:58

name. in 40 years. It's

54:00

It's important that that you are doing

54:02

this stuff because it really

54:04

helps me. really helps me some of that

54:06

puzzle back together and if I can contribute and

54:08

give it to you guys. to

54:10

push forward when I'm gone, guys

54:12

be awesome. forward when I'm gone. It'd be

54:15

awesome If you enjoy these interviews

54:17

and would like to you enjoy

54:19

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54:21

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54:23

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54:25

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54:28

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54:34

Thanks.