0:10

Hi. And welcome to the

0:10

first interview with one of the

0:13

speakers of the U.S. Conference

0:13

happening in Amsterdam this

0:16

November. It's Monica with

0:16

Jessica, and she's Where are you

0:20

from?

0:21

down from Macedonia. O'Neill.

0:23

That's a nice part of

0:23

Europe, actually. And I'm hoping

0:25

to visit it someday in some

0:25

capacity. just to get things

0:29

started, do I was speaking there.

0:29

It's going to be one of your

0:34

first speaking engagements

0:34

outside of Macedonia, right?

0:39

Yes, that's right. It's

0:39

going to be one of my biggest

0:43

public talks so far. So I'm also

0:43

super excited for this

0:47

opportunity.

0:47

So but any, any concerns

0:47

or apprehension or any worries

0:52

or what, what, what's your take on that?

0:56

Well, I'm, as I

0:56

mentioned, super excited. So to

1:00

be honest, I have quite some

1:00

mixed feelings. I really want to

1:05

prepare myself well for this

1:05

opportunity. But yes, I hope

1:10

everything will go great. As

1:10

expected.

1:12

Well, that's, that's one

1:12

thing that I can do for any

1:15

speaker at Davos, and that's to

1:15

hook you up with my co-host,

1:20

Daniel Steinberg, because I just

1:20

happen to know that he really

1:24

enjoys giving some feedback,

1:24

giving some tips, just helping,

1:28

uh, aspiring conference speakers

1:28

out to to get it right the first

1:33

time. So, who knows, Maybe we

1:33

can, uh, can hook up with Daniel,

1:37

and then we can help you, like,

1:37

get even better at, at your

1:42

first presentation. Big public

1:42

presentation because you've

1:45

presented before, because you've

1:45

always been busy. In the last

1:51

year with a cocoa heads meet up

1:51

in Macedonia right?

1:55

Yes, that's right.

1:55

Presented there a couple of

1:57

times. And because I have we

1:57

have really great community in

2:01

Macedonia and they're very

2:01

supportive. So our plan is so

2:06

once I have finished up all the

2:06

preparations for my talk talk,

2:11

if inside the presentation for

2:11

the community, have some

2:16

feedback and then hopefully be

2:16

prepared

2:20

Yeah,

2:20

for

2:20

I.

2:21

a bigger audience.

2:22

You're going for

2:22

Yeah.

2:22

the practice. Makes

2:22

perfect approach. That's a good

2:24

one, actually, because just

2:24

running through your talk,

2:28

actually doing it with a life

2:28

audience that is supportive and

2:32

also hopefully giving some, uh,

2:32

some feedback that you can work

2:34

with afterwards, that's probably

2:34

the best thing that you can do.

2:38

And that's actually, I guess one

2:38

of the purposes of, of the Cocoa

2:42

has meetups as well, right. To

2:42

help people do their first talks,

2:45

to share experience, share

2:45

knowledge, to interact with each

2:48

other, to get to know each other,

2:48

to be able to network.

2:52

Yes, exactly. We are

2:52

aiming for that. We are also

2:56

supporting the other people from

2:56

the community to speak, to speak,

3:01

have some talks and be prepared

3:01

for bigger opportunities.

3:05

Cool. So, software

3:05

development, right. Um, how long

3:10

have you been doing that? Like,

3:10

uh, as a day job, professionally?

3:16

Almost four years, but

3:16

specifically in Eias, I've been

3:21

working three years so far

3:26

and my main topics are augmented

3:26

reality. I have little bit of

3:32

experience with enterprise

3:32

applications and in the last

3:36

couple of months also a mobile

3:36

banking application. So it was

3:41

quite something right

3:42

So. But that's quite a

3:42

varied exposure that you're

3:45

you're getting across to the iOS

3:45

frameworks that are available.

3:50

So what kind of company are you

3:50

working at right now? Because

3:53

you already told me offline that

3:53

you were, uh, moving to a next,

3:58

uh, employer.

4:01

as well in the last

4:01

three years where I actually got

4:06

all my experience and this

4:06

development and I was working in

4:10

etc. I'm actually currently

4:10

working there. So we have

4:15

multiple services that we

4:15

provide that provides banking

4:20

services. Also, as I mentioned

4:20

in Enterprise, our applications

4:25

and we do have customer service.

4:29

And yes, as you mentioned, I'm

4:29

moving to a new chapter of my

4:34

love life. I'm starting from

4:34

October in, you know, which is a

4:40

company based in Copenhagen. So

4:40

I'll also do a relocation

4:45

Oh,

4:45

there.

4:45

So you're actually

4:45

moving to another part of Europe

4:47

for your work? I

4:49

Yes,

4:49

that

4:50

a colder

4:50

and

4:50

one

4:50

that. That's new information. Yeah, it's. It's. You're moving north quite

4:52

significantly compared to

4:55

Macedonia. So what is a typical

4:55

summer like in Macedonia

4:58

temperature wise?

5:01

going up to 45 maximum,

5:01

let's

5:04

Uh,

5:04

say, on the hottest

5:05

ouch.

5:05

days.

5:06

That's. That's quite

5:07

Yeah.

5:07

warm, actually. I always

5:07

had a lot of air conditioning in

5:09

Macedonia. Always. It's just

5:09

people deal with it.

5:13

Know, we live with air

5:13

conditioning throughout winter

5:16

and summer.

5:16

Yeah. So it's

5:17

We have extreme temperatures.

5:18

also

5:19

You?

5:19

in the winter, it's really cold, actually.

5:22

Yeah. I actually look at

5:22

the statistics, and it's even

5:25

colder than. Than Copenhagen in

5:25

winter.

5:30

Mm hmm.

5:31

So it's kind of like,

5:31

interesting for me

5:34

Uh,

5:34

to

5:34

well,

5:34

go somewhere with

5:34

different temperatures

5:36

I do know that, uh, that

5:36

Denmark and Copenhagen is a very

5:39

nice place to to, to live, uh,

5:39

in Europe. So, uh, looking

5:44

forward to hear from you what

5:44

your experiences there. Of

5:47

course, relocating is never easy.

5:47

Um, but you've mentioned you've

5:51

been doing software development

5:51

for four years. Three of those

5:54

have been iOS development. So

5:54

that's been a year of software

5:57

development that you've been

5:57

doing before that. And then

6:00

there's something

6:00

as

6:01

else that you did before

6:01

that probably some studies

6:03

related to software development

6:03

or. What's your backstory there?

6:08

I've started my

6:08

university for a computer

6:12

science engineering at 2017. So

6:12

as for the second part of my

6:19

second year of studies, I have

6:19

started with my first experience

6:24

in web development, specifically

6:24

in Angular, and then I moved to

6:29

DOT not so full stack

6:29

development. Then. I mean, in

6:35

the meantime, I was also

6:35

studying taking my courses. So I

6:40

also did Erasmus after that

6:40

experience. My first experience

6:44

of work, I took some break and afterwards I started new

6:46

internship where I was

6:52

introduced for it with us. And since then I'm

6:55

working at my current company

7:00

So is it correct in my

7:00

understanding that of those four

7:03

years you've been working

7:03

professionally, that first year

7:06

was during your studies, or was

7:06

it like right after or.

7:12

right after the first

7:13

Okay,

7:13

year. So in my second

7:15

Yeah.

7:15

year of studies

7:16

Okay. So and the, uh,

7:16

the education is it was it a

7:19

three year program? Four or five years?

7:23

it's four

7:24

Okay.

7:24

years.

7:24

Yes, It's a patch.

7:24

Bachelor of Master. What is it?

7:29

It's bachelors here in

7:29

Macedonia. The programme to

7:33

study program at university goes

7:33

four plus

7:35

Mm

7:35

one,

7:35

hmm.

7:36

which is one of my three

7:37

Yeah.

7:37

year. Yeah, the

7:37

bachelor's

7:39

So.

7:39

is for.

7:40

But what made you decide

7:40

to, um, as a young girl, to get

7:45

started with computers and then

7:45

actually come to the conclusion?

7:49

Let's make. Let's make it my

7:49

profession. Let's make, uh,

7:51

let's make money doing software

7:51

development. That that's like a

7:54

big leap that you have to take right?

7:57

Yes. Well, I've always

7:57

been interesting in solving

8:01

problems. I loved mathematics. I

8:01

still do. So I was introduced

8:08

with enough science, computer

8:08

science from high school.

8:15

Luckily, we had a really good

8:15

professor which prepared us, and

8:20

that was my first spark of true.

8:20

When I was introduced with this

8:25

area of science. And since high

8:25

school, I knew that I really

8:30

wanted to continue my

8:30

educational path and computer

8:35

science. And I just applied for

8:35

a place at this, you know, at

8:41

the university where I was

8:41

studying. So I never had any

8:46

regrets since then.

8:47

well, but there are a

8:47

few things to unpack what you

8:49

just described there, because

8:49

mathematics, that's, uh, quite a

8:53

specific subject matter to. To

8:53

be excited about and to be

8:58

interested in. What is it about

8:58

mathematics that, um, makes you

9:03

happy, that you find enjoyable,

9:03

that you give, uh, that that

9:07

makes you want to spend some

9:07

time and energy on that? Because

9:10

mathematics, to me, it was like,

9:10

Do I have to do this? Yes. Okay.

9:17

Yeah. So there are few

9:17

reasons for the German path. The

9:24

dual path. First is that you get

9:24

to solve a problem that you

9:29

didn't know the solution for at

9:29

the beginning, no matter how

9:32

complicated it is, you start

9:32

from the beginning where you

9:37

don't know probably anything and

9:37

then step by step you spread

9:42

your knowledge and apply it to

9:42

the problem solving things. The

9:47

second is that there is no pure

9:47

definition of how you solve the

9:51

problems. So there's always

9:51

another approach. There is never

9:57

the best approach, which is kind

9:57

of like everything in daily life

10:02

that we're applying to. So it's just cohesion of many

10:05

things that's don't make me

10:12

happier. It's basically I'm

10:12

using my brain. Whenever I use

10:17

my brain, I feel super empowered

10:17

to do many other things

10:22

So

10:22

further.

10:22

and and this enjoyment

10:22

with mathematics, how does that

10:26

transfer over to software

10:26

development? Because I can

10:30

imagine that's when you start

10:30

with mathematics. Are the

10:33

problems and problem sets that

10:33

you're working with. Start small,

10:36

but they can become really big.

10:36

Uh, but that's also with

10:39

software development. You start

10:39

small, but at some point you're

10:43

just like going through lines of

10:43

code without end. And sometimes

10:47

you want to pull your hair out

10:47

because you don't see the

10:50

solution yet.

10:52

Yes, I do believe that

10:52

you probably have to be good at

10:58

lists in mathematics because

10:58

everything in the computer

11:02

science is based on it. So all

11:02

the problems,

11:06

like also the algorithms that

11:06

are applied in everyday problems

11:13

throughout working as a

11:13

programmer are based on

11:17

mathematical problems. So at the

11:17

end, I think everything relies

11:23

on the core definitions of

11:23

mathematic mathematical terms.

11:29

So that's how I also started in

11:29

computer science, because we had

11:36

a lot of subjects in the first

11:36

year of university discrete

11:41

mathematics, calculus and so on

11:41

that we had to pass in order to

11:48

continue with the other years.

11:48

So that was basically both of

11:54

them that I knew that I have to

11:54

apply my knowledge in

11:56

mathematics and that I can

11:56

continue also with some coding

12:02

the logic that you use

12:02

for software development is very

12:04

specific fields or part of of

12:04

mathematics. Right. But Boolean

12:10

algebra or what's called with

12:10

Moore's Law and all that stuff,

12:13

is that, um, no, that's not.

12:13

That's something else. Oh, I'm

12:16

confused now. Um.

12:19

and discrete. Yeah, it's

12:19

the Valine one. And then but

12:23

then we have Trigonometric,

12:23

which is something that I really

12:27

didn't like to study. And

12:27

whenever we got to that point I

12:31

was like, No, I will just study

12:31

for the exam. And the moment

12:35

that I had to apply the

12:35

trigonometric, I actually took

12:38

an online course again to go

12:38

back from the core of the

12:44

problems, because the funny part

12:44

is that I really had to apply

12:49

this functions or when I got to

12:49

augmented reality computing and

12:56

solving this kind of 3D

12:58

Yeah.

12:58

sphere

12:59

All the.

13:00

problems.

13:00

All the. All the matrix

13:00

related maths that you have to

13:02

do. It's like I was like,

13:02

constantly. What column do I

13:05

multiply with what row again, it

13:05

was like so confusing

13:08

Exactly.

13:09

and it's like, Oh,

13:09

identity matrix, what does this

13:11

thing do? And it's like, but

13:11

that's just one one in it. What,

13:14

what's it, why is it useful just

13:14

getting that. Uh, yeah, it's

13:18

been, it's been, it's been a

13:18

journey. Let's keep it at that.

13:21

Um, so from, from a young age,

13:21

you, you applied yourself to, to,

13:25

to basically problem solving.

13:25

Were you like a puzzler? AS Yeah,

13:28

as a young girl, or was it like,

13:28

uh,

13:32

More like solving my

13:32

homeworks. And more than that.

13:37

the homework itself is

13:37

challenging enough then. Okay,

13:40

Yeah,

13:41

Sounds like you had some good teachers over the years, and that's, uh, that's always

13:43

good and always very helpful to.

13:46

To run into the right people at

13:46

the right time. Uh, when you are

13:49

developing yourself as a person

13:49

in life, because this, there's

13:53

so many opportunities to do the

13:53

stupid thing when you grow up,

13:56

which sometimes you just have to

13:56

do, right? I'm

13:59

always.

14:00

okay. Always. Okay, now

14:00

I'm concerned. Um, so, uh,

14:05

you've started with a computer

14:05

science, did some dot nets and

14:10

web development and then started

14:10

iOS development. But what about

14:15

iris development was the thing

14:15

that, uh, that pulled you in

14:18

that made you decide, okay, this

14:18

is something I want to do more.

14:22

Uh, and probably the situation

14:22

you were in, it was project

14:25

based work that you were doing.

14:25

So at some point you had to

14:28

advocate for yourself to

14:28

indicate, yes, I want to do more

14:31

iOS and less dot net and, uh,

14:31

web related stuff, please. So

14:37

what was it for you that made

14:37

you decide to to head into this

14:40

direction?

14:42

Oh, let's first talk

14:42

about language. I started with

14:46

Swift and it's so clean and pure

14:46

that there was nothing that I

14:53

didn't understand about

14:54

Oh.

14:54

the language

14:54

Oh. What version of

14:54

Swift are you talking about

14:57

right now?

14:59

for

15:00

Oh,

15:00

probably

15:01

okay. Okay. Yeah.

15:01

Because I'm, I'm, I'm someone

15:04

who has like a Java development

15:04

background, but Java development

15:08

from way back in the day. So I

15:08

started with like Java version

15:12

three or something. A to me,

15:12

seeing the development of Swift

15:16

and having seen the development

15:16

of Java over the years, I see

15:20

parallels there. And I think if

15:20

you look at Swift right now as a

15:23

language, in a way there are

15:23

still pure and nice aspects

15:28

about it. But, but some areas

15:28

are maybe a little bit icky that

15:33

you think like, I wish.

15:35

for example,

15:35

Hmm.

15:37

for

15:37

Well,

15:37

example,

15:38

yeah. Oh, now, now you

15:38

put me on the spot and that's

15:41

that's a challenge. What I, wh I

15:41

find confusing with, uh, Swift

15:46

is some parts of the syntax, you

15:46

know, uh, because I'm from

15:49

Objective-C, so you had to block

15:49

syntax and there was some very

15:53

creatively named websites to

15:53

help you remember the syntax.

15:57

And you have the same websites

15:57

for, uh, for Swift as well. But

16:01

with block syntax, there's so

16:01

many ways that you can basically

16:04

do the same thing. You can do it

16:04

with like implicit arguments,

16:07

you can like name the arguments

16:07

or you can just, instead of

16:11

throwing a block at a function,

16:11

you just throw a function at a

16:14

function and it's like, uh, I'm

16:14

like, okay. And that's and then

16:20

you start thinking, so, okay, so,

16:20

um, so a block and I'm probably

16:25

confusing the naming here

16:25

because I'm from Objective-C. It

16:29

is in fact sort of like a

16:29

function, but it isn't, Uh, and

16:32

it's, I don't know, I get

16:32

confused at some point. I do

16:35

find programming swift enjoyable,

16:35

but it took me a while to, to

16:40

wean myself off of Objective-C

16:40

because I really, I really liked

16:44

the verbose, the ferocity of

16:44

Objective-C. It's like

16:48

impossible to type without code

16:48

completion, but it's, you know,

16:51

it read like poetry, just the

16:51

DeLong function and message

16:54

names that you were looking at.

16:54

And with Swift, uh, it's

16:57

sometimes I think they want to

16:57

make things a little bit too

17:00

terse so that it's like they

17:00

want to, like, really make it

17:02

short and I'm like, Yeah, come

17:02

on and just be explicit, because

17:06

then I can still understand

17:06

what's going on here, like, uh,

17:09

half a year from now, because

17:09

you sometimes have these people

17:12

that chain functions and maps

17:12

and compact maps and then like

17:16

combine and all that stuff

17:16

together and it's like, uh, what

17:20

are you doing on one line all

17:20

together now? Okay, so how are

17:23

you going to, how, how are you

17:23

ever going to debug this? Uh,

17:26

and that's, that's not that,

17:26

that's still my syntax, but it

17:30

is one of the things that I

17:30

think, yeah, that's a perfect

17:34

opportunity for people to shoot

17:34

themselves in the foot and

17:37

regret their choices, uh, down

17:37

the line. I think.

17:42

Yes, with the functional

17:42

programming

17:44

Yeah.

17:45

I just recalled back

17:45

when I started writing Swift

17:49

code, it was so cool for me that

17:49

I, I actually did that in one

17:54

line of code. I did the compact

17:54

map, I

17:57

Yeah,

17:57

did filter,

17:58

we're

17:58

and so many other

17:58

all guilty

17:59

things.

17:59

of that. And

18:01

Exactly.

18:01

while

18:02

But then you realize,

18:03

you're typing

18:03

yeah,

18:04

it.

18:04

you realize it. So

18:05

Yeah, yeah, it's.

18:05

yeah,

18:06

I've got to look at me,

18:06

what I can do and just one line

18:08

and then, like, just even the

18:08

next day you look at it and go

18:12

like, I don't get this

18:15

no,

18:15

anymore. Let's split it

18:15

up. So. But. But

18:19

exactly.

18:19

you like to, you like

18:19

the purity of, of swift as a

18:22

language that's probably because

18:22

of the, the functional origins

18:25

that are a part of the history

18:25

of um of Swift. While it is a

18:30

imperative language with a lot

18:30

of functional aspects added to

18:34

it, um, so was a sidestep for me.

18:34

So carry on. So you like to have

18:41

purity of swift and and the

18:41

cleanliness. What else? So you

18:44

get started with Swift and then

18:44

you want to move into iris

18:48

development. So we sidestepped

18:48

just a tiny little bit

18:52

So at the moment I

18:52

started Swift too. I was really,

18:56

really new. Like I started at

18:56

2020

18:58

and broken.

19:00

exactly

19:00

Yeah,

19:02

13. Read about so many

19:02

books,

19:04

yeah,

19:05

but maybe I was I don't

19:05

I don't consider myself lucky,

19:11

but it was super fun to write

19:11

like code for UA

19:13

yeah.

19:14

and then see it

19:14

instantly

19:16

So are you a person that

19:16

likes to, like, uh, work with

19:20

the simulator to run your code?

19:20

Are you or do you use, um,

19:26

what's it called again? The the

19:26

thing in Xcode preview.

19:28

preview. I feel guilty for the old

19:32

projects that I work on. I

19:37

deleted all

19:37

Oh,

19:38

the previous

19:38

you were like a deletion is

19:39

because

19:39

thing.

19:41

at Yeah, with the old

19:41

ones. So whenever I start the

19:46

new project I try to keep it as

19:46

clean as possible to write all

19:50

the marks

19:50

Mm

19:51

that I know that I

19:52

hmm.

19:52

will need to put in this

19:52

use so I can use the previous

19:58

because it's I'm in Swift Apple

19:58

actually there are trying to

20:03

push people to use previous and

20:03

they are giving so many more

20:08

capabilities with the previous.

20:08

We're just kind of set to not

20:11

use them but nowadays actually

20:11

this happened today. But I

20:15

understood that still there are

20:15

some drawbacks on using previous.

20:20

For example, if you use a custom

20:20

color and then you use a that

20:25

you create a static viable for

20:25

the color to be initialized from

20:29

your assets. It's not working.

20:29

In the previous.

20:33

Gosh darn

20:35

Yeah.

20:35

it. And

20:36

Yeah,

20:36

then you're sitting there and broken me again.

20:39

exactly. So there are

20:39

still some flaws you're using

20:43

the previous, but of course

20:43

there are some and it is much

20:47

more easy

20:48

Mm hmm.

20:49

to develop X, especially

20:49

when working with you to use the

20:54

previous

20:55

Okay, so.

20:55

apple are trying to make

20:55

make it easier for

20:58

So

20:58

us.

20:58

to recap, and I'm going

20:58

to. I'm going to take a shortcut

21:01

here when you got started with

21:01

iOS development, um, the big

21:07

language migrations were over

21:07

because you got on board around

21:11

SWIFT for time frame. You should

21:11

have tried Swift one and two and

21:15

three. It was glorious.

21:16

So

21:16

The the work you had to

21:16

do was just upgrade to exclude

21:18

project. Uh, and you got started

21:18

when like Swift UI was sort of

21:24

like becoming a thing in Iris 13.

21:24

It was still broken to bits, but

21:29

14 it got a lot better. And now

21:29

in, uh, 15 and what, what I was

21:33

personally I was going to 60 now

21:33

or do we have 16 already

21:37

17

21:37

And we had seven.

21:38

better

21:38

Oh

21:38

version.

21:39

man. Yeah. But it's

21:39

getting, it's kind of quite good

21:41

now right. Because I've

21:42

Yeah.

21:43

been doing some

21:43

development with Swift UI as

21:45

well. It's just like recreate a

21:45

threat like user interface from

21:48

the, the new, uh, social

21:48

platform. And it's actually

21:51

quite easy to just get results

21:51

and just make it look good. And

21:55

then you just look at what the

21:55

time spend was and you got, well,

21:59

it was actually quite easy. This,

21:59

this wood, this used to take me

22:01

like three or four days and I

22:01

just did this in an afternoon

22:04

and that's what I really like

22:04

about Swift UI. But then you

22:06

still have to put all the back

22:06

logic behind it. Um,

22:10

This

22:11

so to recap, it was

22:11

basically swift UI being in a

22:15

somewhat usable sorry swift

22:15

being in a somewhat useful state

22:19

and swift UI becoming a thing

22:19

that made you giddy of

22:22

excitement and made you think

22:22

like, yes, this is what I want

22:24

to do more.

22:27

exactly. And then was

22:27

the moment when I was introduced

22:30

in augmented reality world and

22:30

that was really interesting

22:36

because as I mentioned, there

22:36

were so many things that I

22:38

wasn't ready for and I really

22:38

like challenges. So I said, okay,

22:44

let's see where it is going to

22:44

take me. So I started to learn

22:50

bit by a bit old mathematical

22:50

part that I've mentioned the

22:55

trigonometry, all the idea

22:55

behind augmented reality spatial

23:03

computing as Apple are

23:03

introducing it right now.

23:07

So that's how I still stay. It's

23:07

very interesting given two years

23:13

after that. And yeah, right now

23:13

is just something that I know

23:18

that I want to be, if not the

23:18

best, I will try. I'm trying to

23:22

be the best in that. So now yeah,

23:22

now is still super interesting

23:28

to me. And Apple are interesting.

23:28

Always new things every year.

23:33

And I think they're trying the

23:33

developer, they're keeping the

23:36

developer speed easier

23:37

Mm hmm.

23:38

with new stuff.

23:39

Yeah. They they they

23:39

they're launching a new platform

23:42

again, Right? Something with

23:42

vision in it. So did you get

23:46

your hands on one already or not?

23:49

Yes, of course.

23:50

And is it as good as

23:50

they make it to be? Or are you

23:53

not at liberty to share any

23:53

information about the an NDA

23:56

covered thing that you have to

23:56

like use in a darkened room

24:00

without any windows and you have

24:00

to lock it up before it leaves

24:03

the room again?

24:05

Exactly. I am not able

24:05

to share and the experience

24:09

Yeah.

24:10

out of that. They like a

24:10

room, but I can always share my

24:15

experience with writing

24:16

Yeah,

24:17

the code, reading gold,

24:17

the Apple developer

24:22

documentation. So far,

24:23

yeah,

24:24

all the posts about it.

24:24

And it's been interesting. There

24:29

are many things that Apple have

24:29

been introducing in the last two

24:34

years which relative to reality

24:36

yeah.

24:36

kit. But then there are so many new

24:38

things, of course, because they

24:41

have new devices with so many

24:41

new capabilities, so many new

24:46

terms, let's say that way for

24:46

developers that haven't been in

24:53

EXR development.

24:54

Mm hmm.

24:54

So not just augmented

24:54

reality, but virtual reality. So

24:59

it's a very exciting period,

25:02

Yeah, It's it's a it's

25:02

an NDA. Uh, covert and, uh,

25:06

minefield that you that you're

25:06

passing through right now. So

25:09

let's move on to the next topic.

25:09

Um, your talk at do I was, uh,

25:15

how mature is the concept

25:15

already that you're working on.

25:21

to be honest. The idea

25:21

has been there since June 5th,

25:28

but I know what I want to talk

25:28

about. I still haven't started

25:35

to write down all the thoughts

25:35

that are in my head. I'm going

25:39

tomorrow on vacation. I have

25:39

full two weeks that I can focus

25:43

fully on this. I know what I want to say. So

25:45

it's basically all the

25:50

experience so far that it's out

25:50

of this developer lap that I am

25:54

not allowed to talk about, but

25:54

everything else that is related

26:00

with vision lists as a new

26:00

technology and transforming user

26:04

experience, the new UX UI

26:04

approach

26:10

for the users. So yes, basically

26:10

it's mostly related with where

26:16

we can where we can apply this

26:16

new technologies. What did

26:22

changes in everyday consumption?

26:22

Do we really have to put

26:29

everything that we knew so far A

26:29

and learn differently new

26:34

technology? Or is it just

26:34

adoption of

26:37

Mm.

26:37

the Apple ecosystem

26:37

technology is as they're always

26:42

trying to keep up

26:42

Yeah. So basically,

26:42

anything about fish and OS that

26:45

is available in the, um, SDK and

26:47

SDK documentation,

26:52

exactly.

26:52

that stuff that you can

26:52

talk about and that you plan to

26:55

talk about during your talk at 2

26:55

hours. And, um,

27:02

it's going to be like a really

27:02

technical talk or is it more

27:05

like, uh, a viewing at, like the

27:05

possibilities of the SDK or what

27:09

are you, what are your, what are your plans there?

27:13

I am starting from my

27:13

experience as being attendee to

27:20

so many conferences so far, and

27:20

as I'm recalling back to all the

27:25

talks, I always remember the

27:25

most nontechnical ones. So when

27:31

I think about it twice, I really

27:31

don't want to make it super

27:33

technical because the idea is

27:33

not to present to people how

27:38

they can do reality kit view

27:38

because that's something that

27:43

they will open up will developer

27:43

documentation and they will see.

27:46

But mostly is the idea behind it.

27:46

The concept of is aware this

27:53

technology's going to go so I will try to keep it as

27:56

non-technical as possible even

28:02

though there are a little bit technical terms because that's something that everyone is

28:04

interested it interesting in. I

28:08

hope, as developers attending

28:08

this conference, but still I

28:13

really want to. It's the moment

28:13

where I, I will present a code

28:18

snippet because I don't think

28:18

that's the right way or a way to

28:21

share the knowledge and just a

28:21

lot. For once, no one talk.

28:28

So you could say that

28:28

your intention right now,

28:32

because things can always change.

28:32

Of course. And we will at some

28:35

point, uh, post an outline on

28:35

the website of do I was your

28:39

intention is to provide a talk

28:39

that people can go to that they

28:44

can watch you present and then

28:44

when they go out of the talk,

28:48

they are inspired and empowered

28:48

by some knowledge about what

28:53

could potentially be created

28:53

with fishing OS And this new

28:56

device that is still very much

28:56

under NDA.

29:00

Yes, Basically, I want

29:00

to reach the greatest sum up of

29:04

everything called capabilities

29:04

of the device. So developers

29:08

will kind of like think about,

29:08

yes, I can use this capability

29:14

of the device to create some

29:14

simple app at the beginning. So

29:20

my idea is to introduce the

29:20

developers to all the New world.

29:27

All right, sounds good.

29:27

So I'm really looking forward to

29:30

getting your outline. Um, but of

29:30

course, make sure that you take

29:34

your vacation and that you like,

29:34

uh, get yourself ready for your

29:38

new job in somewhere in October,

29:38

as you mentioned, and we'll get

29:43

to meet again in, in Amsterdam

29:43

in November. Um, what are some

29:49

of your hobbies outside of

29:49

software development? What is,

29:52

what are some fun bits about you

29:52

that not a lot of people on one

29:56

online might know about you?

29:59

I always say it's yoga,

29:59

but I would lie if I say it now

30:02

because I haven't been attending

30:02

for more than a month and a half.

30:08

But the thing is that I don't

30:08

mention is actually, I do love

30:13

fashion. So me and my sister and

30:13

my mother, we have like a

30:18

fashion atelier where we

30:18

basically create, create design

30:25

creations. And then there are

30:25

this creations are executed. So

30:34

we have basically like an online

30:34

store

30:36

Okay.

30:36

for it.

30:37

And you make those

30:37

creations yourself with your mom

30:40

or your sister, or you get

30:40

somebody

30:42

Yes,

30:43

you actually create.

30:43

It's yourself with fabric and

30:48

wow, that's,

30:49

Yes,

30:49

that's that's quite

30:49

involved doing that correctly.

30:52

If I see you in one of your own

30:52

creations by any chance, because

30:56

I've seen you at, at a few

30:56

conferences now.

31:00

possibly. But

31:01

Yeah, it's hard to remember.

31:02

I'm trying to to keep

31:02

myself as cool as possible when

31:06

it comes to the I to community.

31:08

Yeah.

31:09

So it's usually just a

31:09

T-shirt and fence.

31:12

Yeah, that's, that's

31:12

always good to wear some clothes,

31:14

at least, because otherwise it

31:14

would be a bit weird. Um, so, um,

31:20

where do people find you online.

31:24

I use Twitter X, the

31:27

Yeah,

31:28

new

31:28

I'm. I'm still

31:28

name.

31:28

confused as well.

31:32

I'm not that active.

31:33

Mm hmm.

31:34

I will try to veer. It's

31:34

whenever I have some spare time.

31:38

I do it with some things. Then I

31:38

use LinkedIn,

31:42

Mm hmm.

31:43

um, where I share other

31:43

bits of my. I do experience

31:49

Yeah.

31:51

and probably that's all

31:51

I tried to stay in to use as few

31:57

platforms as possible.

31:58

Mm hmm.

31:58

Like I don't use

31:58

Mastodon, I don't use threats

32:01

because it's just too much

32:03

Yeah.

32:03

time to be honest.

32:04

Yeah. Otherwise, you're

32:04

just constantly scrolling all

32:06

the time instead of doing other

32:06

things. Right. Okay,

32:10

Yes, exactly.

32:10

cool. Um, I think. I

32:10

think we're doing that. We've

32:14

got everything covered that we

32:14

need. Um, do you have any

32:18

questions, by any chance?

32:21

How excited are you for

32:21

the conference?

32:23

Oh, it's right now. Just

32:23

a lot of work. It's like, wow.

32:27

It's. Well, it's actually quiet

32:27

now because it's summertime. Uh,

32:32

so up to this month, it was a

32:32

lot of conversations with the

32:37

venue and making sure that the

32:37

catering was, like, done. And

32:41

then I needed to, uh, get a

32:41

sponsor on board for the dinner

32:45

that we're planning on the first

32:45

evening of the conference. So,

32:49

Hey, everybody, if you get two

32:49

tickets, dinner is on me on the

32:52

first evening. It's included in

32:52

your ticket price. And, um, yeah,

32:58

of course I have to. I did some

32:58

website updates with, uh, with

33:01

with which the funds help, and

33:01

now it's a bit of a quiet time.

33:05

And I also noticed that in the,

33:05

in the ticket sales, because

33:08

right now we're at about 50% of

33:08

the tickets are sold, which is

33:12

quite good actually. And I'm

33:12

expecting and hoping that once

33:17

the call for paper ends, that's

33:17

at the end of August. So that's

33:20

a few weeks from now when we

33:20

record this, uh, that beginning

33:24

September, uh, speakers will

33:24

start to be announced on, on the

33:27

website and on our socials that

33:27

then the, uh, ticket sales will

33:32

basically go through the roof.

33:32

Um, because,uh , yeah, I still

33:37

need to sell a few more tickets

33:37

because you budget for things.

33:42

So it's, it's, it's spreadsheets

33:42

all the time, but, uh, it's

33:47

coming together. It's, I've

33:47

already reached the point that

33:51

if I am able to, like, not spend

33:51

too much money on extra things,

33:56

uh, right now that I will be

33:56

able to, to, to keep things net

34:01

positive so that, uh, so that's, uh, so that

34:05

Good to

34:06

said,

34:06

hear

34:06

at the

34:06

that.

34:06

financial committee at

34:06

home stays happy because, uh,

34:09

the first thing that my wife

34:09

told me when I, uh, told her

34:12

like, hey, I'm doing a

34:12

conference and all the financial

34:15

risk is on me. This time she was

34:15

like, Say what? And no. And I

34:20

had to, like, explain it to her

34:20

and also plan out financially

34:24

with her. Okay, this is what I'm

34:24

going to do. This is the risk

34:26

that I'm running. Uh, and

34:26

because that's the thing, i, um,

34:31

the conference was organized by

34:31

a company two times over the

34:34

first and the second edition. Uh,

34:34

I was working at this company,

34:37

so they basically, uh, told me,

34:37

Yeah, go ahead, have fun, and

34:41

whatever happens will pay. Uh,

34:41

the third and fourth editions.

34:45

Uh, the, uh, the assets were

34:45

transferred over to the Coke

34:47

that's now community. And

34:47

fortunately, the coke that's in

34:50

our community is, is doing well,

34:50

uh, with sponsorships. I, it's

34:55

not, it's not a gold mine in any

34:55

way, but we have enough

34:58

sponsorship proceeds that we

34:58

were able to take a risk with

35:02

the conference because, yeah, we,

35:02

we basically calculate, okay, if

35:05

we have like a minimum success

35:05

at least uh, the uh, the uh, the,

35:09

the nonprofit won't go bankrupt.

35:09

So we retired two times over.

35:13

But the, the second time under

35:13

Coca House stewardship, uh, we

35:18

were running into the situation

35:18

that if you want to make the

35:20

event bigger, then we had to

35:20

start fulfilling all kinds of

35:25

legal and tax obligations to the

35:25

Dutch government with a non

35:28

profit. So we basically came to

35:28

the agreement that, okay, it

35:33

might be better to separate

35:33

after the, uh, the conference

35:37

again, but then where do you put

35:37

it? And that's the step when I

35:42

was, uh, after some thought and

35:42

deliberation that I was like,

35:47

yeah, let's, uh, let's take this

35:47

on on my own. And fortunately,

35:52

people have to be very helpful,

35:52

but it's, I still remember the,

35:56

the thing with the, a conference

35:56

in, uh, in Denver, uh, I can't

36:02

remember the name right now, but

36:02

they actually went, uh, went

36:05

south with like selling too few

36:05

tickets. And that was right

36:09

after Corona, uh, COVID, and, uh,

36:09

they really had to do a social

36:15

fund drive to able to actually

36:15

close the book on that

36:18

conference. And that's a

36:18

situation I never want to be in.

36:21

Um, so yeah, it's, I don't lose

36:21

sleep over it just yet, but it's,

36:27

uh, it takes a, it takes a lot

36:27

of cycles in my brain every day

36:33

right now. So and I'm hoping

36:33

that, uh, next month and the

36:36

month after and at least, uh,

36:36

the financial concerns are a bit

36:39

less, uh, and that it's more

36:39

focused on, on, on execution of

36:43

the, of the event. So getting

36:43

the speakers on board, making

36:46

sure that flights are arranged,

36:46

that people are put up in, uh,

36:50

in hotels, that they know where

36:50

they need to go. Um, any

36:53

questions that people might have

36:53

that are a ticket holder because

36:57

you do get a lot of email, uh,

36:57

at some point with people having

36:59

all kinds of questions and it's,

36:59

it's, it's about really small

37:02

things, two really big things.

37:02

Um, a small thing is like, hey,

37:07

will there be a vegetarian

37:07

option at any food offerings?

37:12

That's a simple one. Of course

37:12

that will be, uh, but it gets

37:16

more complicated if you have

37:16

somebody has a very specific, uh,

37:20

diet request. So if things need

37:20

to be kosher or things need to

37:24

be halal or whatever, uh,

37:24

specific, uh, uh, dietary

37:30

requirements, somebody might

37:30

have for whatever reason, uh,

37:33

could be medical, could be

37:33

religious. Uh, that's, that's,

37:36

that's already like a step up.

37:36

And then there's even stuff

37:39

beyond that. Sometimes you just

37:39

get an email and you're like, I

37:43

don't even know where to begin

37:43

with this. How do I respond to

37:45

this? But that's of course, also

37:45

probably usually a bit more

37:49

sensitive. So that's not

37:49

something I want to share too

37:51

much about, but it's a lot of

37:51

fun. And um, my wife is still

37:55

okay with me doing this, so I

37:55

hope she stays that way.

38:01

That's the good part.

38:02

Exactly. Well, Monica, I

38:02

look forward to meeting you in

38:07

person in November. Uh, you'll

38:07

be at my place that time around,

38:13

because the previous time that

38:13

we met, that one was. That

38:16

wasn't in Swift Leeds. Or was it

38:16

in, in Turin?

38:19

I know it was last year

38:19

on the US

38:25

Oh,

38:25

as well, though some financial

38:26

oh yeah. Turin was

38:26

before that even. Wow. That's,

38:30

as

38:30

that's

38:30

it was in

38:31

yeah,

38:31

summer during

38:32

yeah. It's too much with

38:32

heroes. There was, uh, there was,

38:35

uh, a colleague of mine that was

38:35

a colleague of yours, uh, in his

38:40

previous role. Uh, he introduced

38:40

us and then we went, went away

38:45

again, and then it was do I was.

38:45

And you got excited about

38:48

organizing coconuts meet up, and

38:48

all of a sudden you're speaking

38:51

at

38:51

this.

38:51

a conference, and this

38:51

is how things happened, right?

38:56

It's amazing.

38:57

All right, well, see you

38:57

in November and, and

39:00

notifications. And, uh, let me

39:00

know if there's any developments

39:03

with your, uh, with your talk,

39:03

outlining concepts and if

39:06

there's anything that you need

39:06

help with, make sure to to reach

39:09

out, because, uh, I'm more than

39:09

happy to help, uh, with anything

39:12

that you need to in that regard.

39:15

Sure we'll do Thank you

39:15

very much for your support and

39:20

good luck with all the rest for

39:20

the conference and whenever you

39:24

need some help, extra hints on

39:24

the website or whatever you need,

39:28

feel free to reach out as well.

39:33

And now it's stopping, and it's.