0:00

Tell me a parenting issue everyone

0:02

struggles with, with tweens and teens,

0:04

but no one talks about. Rina,

0:06

I think a lot of people

0:08

feel like they just don't know

0:10

how to connect to their kid

0:12

anymore. I'm Rina Ninein and welcome

0:15

to Ask Lisa, the

0:17

Psychology of Parenting Podcast.

0:19

And I'm Dr. Lisa

0:21

Damore. We bring you

0:23

science-back strategies for managing

0:25

anxiety, discipline, intense

0:27

emotions, and more. We

0:29

decode tough parenting challenges

0:31

with tips that you

0:33

can use right now.

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So subscribe to Ask

0:37

Lisa, the psychology of

0:39

parenting podcast, and join

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our YouTube community today.

0:44

We're here to help you

0:47

untangle family life. You've

0:54

been excited Lisa about this new guest

0:56

that we're having on today an author

0:59

who is a friend of yours and

1:01

has a new book about emotions. I am

1:03

so excited and we will talk more

1:05

with our wonderful guest when he joins

1:08

us but let me just say there

1:10

are a lot of books out there

1:12

about emotions there are very few

1:14

that are excellent and I can tell

1:16

you the book we're going to talk about

1:18

today is really a remarkable contribution. And

1:20

I am so, so glad that it

1:22

is available to people now. You were

1:24

really psyched about it. When you read

1:26

the book, there's so much research that

1:28

I think parents will really love, but

1:31

research that's accessible and easy to understand.

1:33

So let me introduce Ethan, Dr. Ethan

1:35

Cross. My mom gets very upset when

1:37

I don't say doctor in front of

1:39

people's names. He says they work very

1:41

hard to get that techno. Ethan's the

1:43

author of the international bestseller chatter and

1:45

his new best out in February. He's

1:47

one of the world's leading experts

1:49

on emotional regulation and award-winning professor

1:51

at the University of Michigan's top-ranked

1:53

psychology department, and also its Ross

1:55

School of Business. He's the director

1:57

of the Emotion. and self-control laboratory.

1:59

Maybe we'll get a chance to

2:01

visit that laboratory one day. I'd

2:03

love to see what goes on

2:05

there. But the book is called

2:07

Shift, managing your emotions so they

2:09

don't manage you. Ethan, welcome. Thanks

2:11

for having me. Thanks for that

2:13

incredible, incredibly kind and generous introduction.

2:15

I mean so much coming from

2:17

this team whose work I so

2:19

admire, so it's just a delight

2:21

to be here. Well, you are

2:23

welcome, and I actually want to

2:25

say more. I want to say

2:27

more. I was just getting started.

2:30

So here's the thing. Here we

2:32

go. This is what they do,

2:34

Lisa. This is what the journal

2:36

reviewers do. They start off with,

2:38

they say really nice things, but

2:40

then they come down with a

2:42

hammer. So I'm going to brace

2:44

myself right now. It's all good.

2:46

It's all good. This is true.

2:48

No, no, no. There's no, there's,

2:50

as I remember one of my

2:52

clinical supervisor saying, there's no bloody

2:54

knife in the drawer. There are

2:56

people who work on the academic

2:58

side who are in labs generating

3:00

incredibly valuable research studies. There are

3:02

people who speak to broad audiences

3:04

who are very very good at

3:06

it. You almost never encounter somebody

3:08

who does both of those things

3:10

well and does them both well

3:12

at once. And so that is

3:14

why I'm so excited about Ethan

3:16

and his work in addition to

3:18

him being like a lovely human

3:20

being and a friend and somebody

3:22

who I am thrilled, thrilled is

3:24

out there doing this work. As

3:27

I was reading this book, I

3:29

was just, I mean like literally

3:31

covered in goosebumps as I was

3:33

reading it with just like you

3:35

know how I love the science

3:37

and you know how I love

3:39

bringing it to people who are

3:42

not steeped in it all the

3:44

time. And just the skill set

3:46

that Ethan brings to this is

3:48

so critical. Okay, one other thing

3:50

I have to say by way

3:52

of context and then we're diving

3:54

in. Part of what I love

3:56

so much about what Ethan has

3:58

done in this book is gives

4:00

us... a way to think about

4:02

emotion that is not all about

4:04

talking and thinking. about and expressing

4:07

emotion. And Ethan, I'm not going

4:09

to say more, I want you

4:11

to be the one who unpacks

4:13

this, but the last thing I

4:15

will say, you can tell I'm

4:17

so excited, is at a time

4:19

in our culture where there's a

4:21

really strong emphasis on mucking around

4:23

and feelings, which we as psychologists

4:25

know is not always to the

4:27

benefit, Ethan is giving us so

4:29

many other alternatives that are science-backed

4:32

and wildly effective. I'll leave it

4:34

at that and we got to

4:36

turn to Ethan. Now I just

4:38

could talk about him all day.

4:40

Geez, wow, you guys are set

4:42

in the bar super high. So,

4:44

you know, alright Ethan, let's get

4:46

to this. I'm using a tool

4:48

right there that we'll talk about

4:50

later for motivation. Well, I can't

4:52

agree with you more, Lisa. I

4:54

think, you know, I got into

4:57

this business of trying to understand

4:59

how we can manage the emotional

5:01

curveballs that life throws at us

5:03

for two reasons. I was just

5:05

genuinely fascinated by the fact that

5:07

we have these emotional experiences throughout

5:09

our lives and we don't really

5:11

get a user's manual on how

5:13

to skillfully navigate them and they

5:15

can often steer us in directions

5:17

where we don't want to be

5:19

and trying to understand why that

5:22

happens and what you can do

5:24

about it was just always a

5:26

fascinating puzzle to me. But the

5:28

second motivation really came from an

5:30

experience I had with my dad

5:32

growing up where he just drilled

5:34

down within me, whatever you choose

5:36

to do when you get older,

5:38

make sure you help people in

5:40

some way. But let's get into

5:42

it. So emotions, what do we

5:44

know about it? Yeah, so you

5:47

want to pepper them at me?

5:49

Yep, we're going to toss them

5:51

at you. I'm going to start.

5:53

So this book is about the

5:55

concept of shifters or shifting, and

5:57

it's about using internal and external

5:59

cues to help us redirect our

6:01

emotional states. Give us sort of

6:03

an opening understanding of how parents

6:05

can identify and use these shifters

6:07

in daily life. Okay, so first

6:09

I want to give the disclaimer

6:11

at the outset, which is all

6:14

emotions when they're experiencing the right

6:16

proportions are useful. So, and there

6:18

are really two things I hope

6:20

parents take away from this discussion,

6:22

lessons that they can can take

6:24

with them for how to better

6:26

manage their own emotional lives, which

6:28

of course is a critical piece

6:30

of being a good happy parent.

6:32

We've got to lead ourselves if

6:34

you want to lead others, but

6:36

then also tools you can use

6:39

directly to manage your kids' emotional

6:41

lives. So all emotions, even the

6:43

bad ones, can be useful. They

6:45

serve a function. I think if

6:47

we embrace this notion that all

6:49

of our emotions are useful, even

6:51

the bad ones, the quote-unquote bad

6:53

ones. This is a gift that

6:55

we can give to people. It

6:57

is liberating to know that if

6:59

I'm not happy every second of

7:01

the day, that doesn't mean something

7:04

is wrong with me. So I

7:06

just want to put that out

7:08

there from the outset. And I

7:10

think that's a message that resonates

7:12

with you both. Absolutely, absolutely. I've

7:14

got the book right here, and

7:16

one of the things, when we

7:18

turn to this page here, one

7:20

of the things that I love

7:22

is that you referenced this fascinating

7:24

study from New Zealand, where scientists

7:26

really wanted to look at the

7:29

connection from birth and the problems

7:31

in child health and development. And

7:33

among the things they found was

7:35

your ability to kind of manage

7:37

emotions actually ended up predicting a

7:39

lot about their lives. Tell me

7:41

a little bit more about that.

7:43

Well, this was a study in

7:45

which children were followed from a

7:47

very young age and they were

7:49

followed over the course of their

7:51

lifetime and they're now quite a

7:54

bit older middle age and beyond.

7:56

And what they learned is that

7:58

these kids, their ability to manage

8:00

their emotions throughout their child and

8:02

adolescents, ended up being a potent

8:04

predictor of their ability to excel

8:06

in their careers, their health, and

8:08

well-being more broadly. And that's a

8:10

finding that gels really well with

8:12

what we know from lots of

8:14

other research that this capacity to

8:16

regulate our emotions, what I mean

8:19

by regulating is turning the volume

8:21

up or down on our emotions.

8:23

lengthening or shortening the duration of

8:25

our emotions, and sometimes even switching

8:27

from one state to another. That

8:29

capacity, which I call shifting for

8:31

short, it's not a game changer.

8:33

It is the game changer. Because

8:35

if you look under the hood

8:37

at what happens when our emotions

8:39

take over, you find number one,

8:41

they consume our attention. So they

8:44

leave very little attention left over

8:46

to do the things that we

8:48

often want and need to do,

8:50

whether that be focusing on the

8:52

the material we need to study

8:54

for our upcoming exam or Listening

8:56

to someone else like a teacher

8:58

when you're in a classroom or

9:00

at the dinner table When your

9:02

parents are talking to you or

9:04

when your kids are or vice

9:06

versa when your kids are talking

9:09

to you as a parent. I've

9:11

had experiences where sometimes if I

9:13

get swept away with a stressful

9:15

experience, it does happen every now

9:17

and again. I get out of

9:19

it because I shift, but it

9:21

does happen at times. Sometimes I'll

9:23

have this experience of asking my

9:25

kids about their day. And I

9:27

love asking them that question because

9:29

what ensues in the next few

9:31

minutes is like a blood sport

9:34

to determine who can first contribute.

9:36

you know they all want to

9:38

go is like who can get

9:40

the attention and I magically all

9:42

powerful dad in Tao you will

9:44

go first and then and then

9:46

they start talking and and then

9:48

sometimes I'll just drift away I'll

9:50

just go back to the thing

9:52

that's on my mind yeah and

9:54

five minutes later you know, after

9:56

I'm finished chewing, I'll turn to

9:59

the same daughter and I'll go,

10:01

so what happened today? And then

10:03

she looks at me with frustration.

10:05

So you could begin to see

10:07

here how the inability to manage

10:09

my emotions well in that circumstance

10:11

actually has interpersonal implications, right? I'm

10:13

not present. The flip side is

10:15

also true. Sometimes when we get

10:17

carried away with our emotions, we

10:19

want to get it out so

10:21

much. We start talking to someone.

10:23

and we keep on talking about

10:26

it over and over and over

10:28

again and that could that could

10:30

push other people away too. And

10:32

then we can shift to our

10:34

health and well-being. We know that

10:36

getting swept by our motion away

10:38

by our emotions doesn't necessarily feel

10:40

great. We also know that it

10:42

can have pretty significant negative implications

10:44

for our physical health. It can

10:46

delay the pace at which we

10:48

recover from different kinds of stressful

10:51

experiences in ways that exert a

10:53

wear and tear in our body

10:55

that is physically damaging, predicts things

10:57

like problems of cardiovascular disease, inflammation.

10:59

I won't go down the list

11:01

because it's not fun to be

11:03

there. Hey parents, have you ever

11:05

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11:07

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11:09

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11:11

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11:16

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11:20

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11:22

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11:24

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11:36

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11:45

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11:57

One question at a time. Okay,

12:01

we asked our listeners for some

12:03

questions to run by you. A

12:05

parent asked, what do I do

12:07

when my child's self-esteem is so

12:09

low and I don't know what

12:11

to do or say that will

12:13

make a difference? That's a great

12:16

question and I love the you

12:18

don't know what to do or

12:20

say part of it because I

12:22

think that really captures how so

12:24

many parents often feel when it

12:26

comes to instances in which these

12:28

entities, these beings that we love

12:30

more than anything else in the

12:32

world are struggling and we don't

12:35

know what to do because no

12:37

one has actually taught us what

12:39

to do. No one has actually

12:41

laid out the scientific cheat sheet

12:43

if you will for pushing another

12:45

person's emotions around in the direction

12:47

you want to push them around.

12:49

I just want to stop from

12:52

it on that language. I love

12:54

that language. Like I think the

12:56

idea of thinking about emotions as

12:58

concrete and outside of us and

13:00

you can shift them one way,

13:02

shift another. It's not a language

13:04

I've heard a lot, or I

13:06

think ever, and it just immediately

13:09

puts us in a different way

13:11

of thinking about this instead of

13:13

feeling it, the mercy of them

13:15

that they're out there and they

13:17

can be pushed one way or

13:19

another. Okay, keep going. Well, but

13:21

thank you for that actually because

13:23

it actually takes us to... Point

13:25

number one, which I think is

13:28

chapter number two, can you really

13:30

control your emotions? I think one

13:32

thing we want to really convey

13:34

is what are the facets of

13:36

our own emotions and other people's

13:38

emotions that we can push around

13:40

and what can't we push around?

13:42

There was a study that sent

13:45

chills down my spine when I

13:47

first confronted it several years ago.

13:49

It basically asked adolescents, series of

13:51

questions designed to assess. Can you

13:53

control your emotions? About 40 percent.

13:55

of kids said they didn't think

13:57

they can control their emotions. That

13:59

is for me a disheartening finding

14:01

on the one hand because if

14:04

you don't think you can do

14:06

something. Are you going to take

14:08

any efforts to actually do it?

14:10

No. Right? This is a basic,

14:12

basic motivation. If I don't think

14:14

there's anything I can do to

14:16

lose weight to get in shape,

14:18

I'm not signing up for the

14:21

gym. You know, I'm not doing

14:23

an hour every morning. So this

14:25

is something that really we need

14:27

to address. And it's a somewhat

14:29

nuanced question. Can you control your

14:31

emotions? Because there are parts of

14:33

our emotional experiences. There are parts

14:35

of our emotional experience that I

14:37

don't think we can control. And

14:40

then there are parts that we

14:42

can. So what do I mean

14:44

by that? A couple of months

14:46

ago I'm in the gym and

14:48

it's a group class and I'm

14:50

walking from one side of the

14:52

gym to another and I'm carrying

14:54

an astronomically heavy dumbbell just to

14:57

be clear. It's a big dumbbell

14:59

and joking care. I'm carrying a

15:01

dumbbell and there's a woman. doing

15:03

exercise on a yoga mat, kind

15:05

of adjacent to where I have

15:07

to put the dumbbell. And as

15:09

I begin to walk, I have

15:11

this thought that elicits a very

15:14

strong emotion. And the thought is,

15:16

what if I just drop this

15:18

dumbbell on the woman's face, like

15:20

right on her face, square in

15:22

the middle? Like, oh my gosh,

15:24

exactly. Now you're, Lisa, you might

15:26

change your introduction. I mean, We

15:28

experience thoughts like that automatically trigger

15:30

dark thoughts like that. This is

15:33

universal. There's a lot of science

15:35

on this. We experience this quite

15:37

frequently. And there's a story you

15:39

could tell that might lead you

15:41

to think a little bit. better

15:43

of me, which is this isn't,

15:45

this could be your mind's way

15:47

of simulating worst case scenarios to

15:50

prepare you for them. So I

15:52

experienced that thought, I felt terrible,

15:54

I squeeze a dumbbell a lot

15:56

tighter as I walk by. Parents

15:58

often report when they have new

16:00

kids, I have these images of

16:02

really terrible things. to their kids,

16:04

you know, dropping them off the

16:06

second story of a building and

16:09

yada yada yada. There's a rationale

16:11

for why this happens, right? We

16:13

don't want that to happen. So

16:15

we're preparing ourselves. I don't have

16:17

any control over when I mean

16:19

experience those dark thoughts. When I

16:21

pass by someone on the street

16:23

and I don't like the way

16:26

they look at me and I

16:28

have an emotional reaction, like I

16:30

can't control that. What I can

16:32

control. What I am a. Jiu-Jitsu

16:34

expert at controlling is what happens

16:36

once those emotions are triggered. That

16:38

is the playground that we can

16:40

hang out in. And so I

16:42

think that's one really important thing

16:45

for parents to know. You can't

16:47

always control the emotion when it's

16:49

activated, but once it becomes activated,

16:51

you can control its trajectory. There's

16:54

so much more I want to

16:56

get into but as you're mentioning

16:58

Jim I want to talk about

17:00

the NBA and Dennis Rodman You've

17:03

got a great example We're gonna

17:05

pause take a quick break and

17:07

on the other side of the

17:09

break. We'll talk more about this

17:11

You're listening to ask Lisa the

17:14

psychology of parenting So I think

17:16

what this parent should do number

17:18

one is familiarize themselves with all

17:20

the shifters that are out there,

17:23

because one of the things we

17:25

know is that there are no

17:27

one-size-fits-all solutions for shifting ourselves or

17:29

other people's emotions. Different tools work

17:31

for different people in different situations,

17:34

and the sooner we can embrace

17:36

that, the better for all of

17:38

our emotional well-being. That said, let

17:40

me tell you what I would

17:42

do if I was in this

17:45

circumstance. I would use some sensory

17:47

shifters. I'd go over to my

17:49

kid and I would affectionately embrace

17:51

them. I would, you know, give

17:54

them a hug, I'd rub their

17:56

back. We often overlook the power

17:58

of sensory experiences to shift other

18:00

people. We are a tactile species

18:02

and so affectionate touch is one

18:05

thing you could do. If you

18:07

want to stay on the sensory

18:09

bandwagon, you might also just put

18:11

on some music in the background

18:14

that you know your kid is

18:16

going to resonate with and see

18:18

how that affects their mood. Music

18:20

is a very powerful tool for

18:22

automatically shifting other people's emotional experiences.

18:25

and they often can at least

18:27

in my case too when I

18:29

try to resonate with my children

18:31

and embrace the music that they

18:34

like that often also elicit some

18:36

cringe factor on their behalf which

18:38

further enhances the emotional experience. Other

18:40

things you can do you can

18:42

be the agent that refrains the

18:45

situation for them. We often struggle

18:47

to think really rationally and clearly

18:49

about the circumstances that we ourselves

18:51

are facing because the emotions we're

18:53

experiencing, when they're really potent, sometimes

18:56

they make it hard to access

18:58

that rational mode of thought. But

19:00

as parents who are a step

19:02

removed from the situation, we can

19:05

put that bigger picture in perspective

19:07

for our kids. I would first

19:09

make it clear before you take

19:11

that step to reframe how they're

19:13

feeling that you know, you love

19:16

them. You care about them. empathize

19:18

with them, resonate with them. The

19:20

two steps that I typically follow,

19:22

and this is research-based, for having

19:25

conversations with my kids about their

19:27

emotional lives, is step one, just

19:29

connect with them socially and emotionally,

19:31

right, establish those empathic connections, validate

19:33

what they're going through, and then

19:36

once those emotional connections are really

19:38

made potent, That's when you start

19:40

working to broaden their perspective. So

19:42

that would be the first line

19:45

of intervention a little sensory intervention

19:47

Connect emotionally resonate to make it

19:49

clear that there's unconditional support and

19:51

love and then work on that

19:53

bigger picture This is great advice.

19:56

I want to get to to

19:58

the book also as well. And

20:00

I love the tangible stuff that

20:02

parents can use from that example.

20:05

You've got this great passage in

20:07

the book that I just absolutely

20:09

love. It's called something like what

20:11

Dennis Rodman and my grandmother had

20:13

in common. Rodman, of course, the

20:16

NBA, Chicago Bulls, Super Star, many

20:18

of us, I remember him from

20:20

my childhood, you know, wild outfits,

20:22

dated Madonna, even married himself. The

20:24

coaches of the Chicago Bulls seem

20:27

to understand and give him some

20:29

space on this. But you say

20:31

that he actually used distraction and

20:33

avoidance to regulate his emotions. Tell

20:36

me more about that. Well, so

20:38

my grandmother was exceptionally tall. You

20:40

should know. Just joking. She didn't

20:42

break five feet. So we often,

20:44

one of the first things that

20:47

I learned in childhood from my

20:49

parents was just never ever avoid

20:51

anything. approach, confront, fight your fears,

20:53

don't run away, because if you

20:56

do it, you're going to rebound,

20:58

and the problem will still be

21:00

there, and it's just going to

21:02

affect you even worse down the

21:04

road. Then I got to graduate

21:07

school and that message was just

21:09

reinforced even more strongly. Avoidance is

21:11

toxic. It was as close to

21:13

a universal truth as I encountered.

21:16

Lisa, I'd be curious if you

21:18

learned the same, but it was

21:20

just... received wisdom

21:22

of the ages. And what I've

21:24

since learned, both personally, but the

21:26

science backs this up as well,

21:28

is it's not that simple. There

21:30

is a time and place for

21:32

strategically avoiding things. Not engaging in

21:35

harmful. distractors like abusing drugs and

21:37

things like that. But taking a

21:39

break from something really challenging, allowing

21:41

time to temper the intensity of

21:43

our emotions can be a very

21:45

very useful emotion regulation. And this

21:47

is something that Dennis Rodman, at

21:49

least by my observation, seemed to

21:51

be really good at. He would

21:53

be in the culture, in incredibly

21:55

high-stakes environments, like super high-pressure, trying

21:57

to win an NBA championship, and

21:59

he would work, work, work, work,

22:02

but then he would take a

22:04

break and entirely get his mind

22:06

off of the intense stressor that

22:08

he was having to deal with,

22:10

and he'd come back, recharged. I

22:12

have benefited from this personally time

22:14

and again in my own life,

22:16

although my intuition is once a

22:18

problem arises, let me just respond

22:20

right now to work through it,

22:22

taking time away from it, hours,

22:24

sometimes a few days, and then

22:27

coming back to that problem is

22:29

often a game changer. What we

22:31

are doing here is we are

22:33

allowing our psychological immune system to

22:35

shine. We all have these psychological

22:37

immune systems. The physical immune system

22:39

is a system that helps us

22:41

deal with physical threats in our

22:43

environment. Our psychological immune system is

22:45

often described metaphorically for helping us

22:47

deal with the emotional curveballs that

22:49

we're struggling with. And an important

22:52

mechanism in your psychological immune system

22:54

is time. Emotions fade with time.

22:56

Just let that happen to some

22:58

degree and so so that's the

23:00

the Dennis Rodman story and in

23:02

the book I talk about the

23:04

Circumstances under which You may want

23:06

to avoid or not avoid or

23:08

be flexible Flexibility is a theme

23:10

of this book again. No one-size-fits-all

23:12

solutions. I love it and I

23:14

agree with you. I think the

23:17

dogmatism around avoidance I remember it

23:19

I still think we stick by

23:21

the idea that avoidance if you

23:23

have something that you're anxious about,

23:25

the more you stay away from

23:27

it, the worse it gets. But

23:29

I agree with you, there's so

23:31

much to be sad for time

23:33

and space. And I'm surprised by

23:35

how often parents are surprised when

23:37

I say, look, if your kid

23:39

has had a hard day and

23:42

they want to come home and

23:44

play video games for 20 minutes.

23:46

and it's still let the feelings

23:48

die down, and that lets them

23:50

get their homework done. That's great.

23:52

You know, I think that that's

23:54

not what people expect psychologists to

23:56

say. That's a strategy we use

23:58

at our house every single day.

24:00

Yeah. Like kids, just let it

24:02

die down. All right, Ethan, we

24:04

got this question that I think

24:06

so many parents will resonate too,

24:09

and it's both about emotion regulation

24:11

in the child and the parent,

24:13

and I want to run up

24:15

by you. And basically the shape

24:17

of it is parent with a

24:19

daughter who's 17 and the daughter

24:21

had gone through a hard stretch.

24:23

She went through a hard time,

24:25

had therapy, things got better. And

24:27

what the parent shares is she's

24:29

doing great now, but every once

24:31

in a while, if she hits

24:34

a bump, you know, she has

24:36

a disappointment, the parent is thrown

24:38

back into panic mode, worried that

24:40

this is going to set her

24:42

kid back. So the parent's question

24:44

is, how do I handle this?

24:46

Usually the kids fine. But I

24:48

am now. undone with worry that

24:50

she's going to backslide? How do

24:52

I handle it in the moment

24:54

and how do I keep my

24:56

reaction from affecting my kid so

24:59

that I can be present for

25:01

her? This is such a great

25:03

question. It's an incredibly common experience

25:05

and it is one of the

25:07

reasons why I think there are

25:09

really two key types of takeaways

25:11

that I hope parents leave this

25:13

book with. One is how to

25:15

manage your own emotional life better.

25:17

parenting is not just about managing

25:19

your kids' emotions and giving them

25:21

lessons, socializing them into how to

25:24

be great shifters or emotion regulators.

25:26

You can only do that to

25:28

the extent that you are also

25:30

managing yourself well. And there are

25:32

a couple of reasons for that.

25:34

If you're not managing yourself well,

25:36

number one, kids learn observationally. They're

25:38

like sponges. They're... You know, my

25:40

kids, I'm sure this is true

25:42

for you, that whenever I fail

25:44

to practice what I preach, the

25:46

kids call me on it. And

25:49

they take great delight in doing

25:51

so. They would like to hold

25:53

Instagram live sessions in which they

25:55

broadcast my flubs. So they're constantly

25:57

observing us and learning from us

25:59

as a result. That's a very

26:01

powerful learning mechanism, observational learning. But

26:03

if we're becoming emotional in ways

26:05

that are hijacking us, we're also,

26:07

we're not there for our kids

26:09

in the way that we ideally

26:11

want to be. So back to

26:13

getting tactical, what do you do

26:16

here? What do you do here?

26:18

Again with a caveat that there

26:20

are no one-size-fits-all solutions, different strokes

26:22

for different folks. Let me tell

26:24

you what I would do here.

26:26

I would first and foremost try

26:28

to broaden my perspective. I would

26:30

jump into the mental time travel

26:32

machine. So we often hear that

26:34

we should always strive to be

26:36

in the moment. This is one

26:38

of my biggest pet peeves. Being

26:41

in the moment can be great

26:43

at times, but being able to

26:45

travel in time in our minds.

26:47

Wow. Wow. What a tool we

26:49

possess for shifting our emotions. Tell

26:51

me more about that. What do

26:53

you mean by travel and time?

26:55

So you can travel in time

26:57

in your mind, you could project

26:59

yourself into the future or the

27:01

past. Now, oftentimes we think about

27:03

doing that and we think that

27:06

gets us into trouble because we're

27:08

worried about the future or ruminating

27:10

about the past. And one of

27:12

the directives is, okay, well, when

27:14

that happens, we focus on the

27:16

present. That makes sense and is

27:18

useful for a lot of people.

27:20

But you can also time travel

27:22

to your benefit. And I'll give

27:24

you a couple of ways to

27:26

do this. One thing you can

27:28

do is you can imagine how

27:31

you're going to feel about something

27:33

that you're struggling with sometime down

27:35

the road, a day, a week,

27:37

a month, a year, 10 years

27:39

from now. You have lived through

27:41

a... I don't know. I don't

27:43

know what the number is. at

27:45

least millions of emotional experiences, maybe

27:47

even billions of micro-emotional experiences in

27:49

your lives, and they all take

27:51

the same basic form. is triggered

27:53

and then as time goes on

27:56

it peters out. You know this

27:58

to be true because you have

28:00

lived it time and time again

28:02

yet when you find yourself overwhelmed

28:04

by emotion we zoom in on

28:06

the awfulness of the experience. We

28:08

don't we lose sight of that

28:10

bigger picture when you go into

28:12

the mental time travel machine into

28:14

the future. It automatically activates this

28:16

understanding that as awful as what

28:18

I'm going through is, things will

28:20

eventually get better. And that does

28:23

something very powerful to a person

28:25

who is wrapped with emotion. It

28:27

turns the volume down just a

28:29

little bit, which is often all

28:31

we need to do. to get

28:33

back on track. So that's time

28:35

travel into the future, but you

28:37

could also go into the past,

28:39

and I think this might be

28:41

particularly relevant for this parent. Think

28:43

about other moments in which you've

28:45

been through these kinds of experiences

28:48

and survived, thrived, endured. So you

28:50

could think about other instances in

28:52

which your child faced a challenge

28:54

and it didn't all go to

28:56

hell. They actually are doing just

28:58

fine. And then apply that logic

29:00

to the present. Right, so that's

29:02

a way of going back in

29:04

time to kind of help you

29:06

through the moment. So I would

29:08

do that. I would, I'd also

29:10

use sensation to give me a

29:13

bit of a lift. I've got

29:15

a wonderful playlist designed to counteract

29:17

any big kinds of stressful emotions.

29:19

I would rather not get into

29:21

the details of the artists that

29:23

populate that playlist. Boy oh boy

29:25

is that playlist effective. That's a

29:27

sensory tool. Music is powerful and

29:29

underutilized. That's one of the big

29:31

things I think I walked away

29:33

from your book is the power

29:35

of music and you know I

29:38

Hug my kids quite a bit

29:40

and we read somewhere that if

29:42

you hug for eight seconds it

29:44

really helps as opposed like a

29:46

four-second hug so they literally will

29:48

wait. eight seconds before I like

29:50

that. I love that. But you

29:52

know, it's these little things that

29:54

you can shift that your book

29:56

teaches. But I'm just curious. How

29:58

has the book changed the way

30:00

you manage your own emotional life?

30:03

There's so much great research in

30:05

there. Was there anything that really

30:07

you hold on to in managing

30:09

your emotions? You know, this is

30:11

the second book I've written and

30:13

both deal with emotion regulation in

30:15

different ways, but I can say

30:17

that Both have allowed me to

30:19

widen the repertoire of tools that

30:21

I use to manage my emotions.

30:23

People often ask me, do I

30:25

ever get overcome by unwanted emotional

30:27

states? And inside, I think to

30:30

myself, are you kidding me? Of

30:32

course I struggle with emotions at

30:34

times. I'm human. We all do

30:36

at times. But what I am

30:38

really good at is the moment

30:40

I detect myself. Slipping in that

30:42

direction, I've got a wonderful arsenal

30:44

of tools to implement and I

30:46

don't have to stop and think

30:48

what should I do or just

30:50

stumble on a solution that sometimes

30:52

works but maybe doesn't. I immediately

30:55

have these action plans for what

30:57

to do. So in some instances

30:59

it may involve like just, you

31:01

know, going for a walk in

31:03

a green space and mental time

31:05

traveling, trying to talk through the

31:07

experience like I would give advice

31:09

to a friend, and then maybe

31:11

call up a few of my

31:13

quote-unquote emotional advisors, people who I've

31:15

specifically singled out in my head

31:17

as being adept at doing both

31:20

of those things we talked about

31:22

earlier, first listening, validating empathizing, but

31:24

then also working with me to

31:26

broaden my perspective. And that's just

31:28

the tip of the iceberg. So

31:30

I'm really conscious about what tools

31:32

I bring to the table. I

31:34

guess the second take. is I

31:36

use these tools with my kids

31:38

so I spend a chapter in

31:40

the book talking about the final

31:42

shifter which is something I call

31:45

a culture shifter and I think

31:47

we often overlook the power of

31:49

culture to teach us how to

31:51

relate to our emotions and how

31:53

to manage them. Culture is like

31:55

the air we breathe. It is

31:57

all around us and it is

31:59

teaching us about what are... What

32:01

are our beliefs and values? How

32:03

should we think about emotions and

32:05

whether to manage them? Cultures also

32:07

give us norms and practices. Culture

32:10

gives us tools for managing our

32:12

emotions. And every single family, I

32:14

would argue, is a kind of

32:16

microculture where we have the opportunity

32:18

to be shaping the beliefs and

32:20

values of our kids when it

32:22

comes to their own emotional lives

32:24

and how to relate to other

32:26

people's emotions. this culture that we

32:28

have at home, we also have

32:30

the opportunity to give our kids

32:32

tools. So I am giving my

32:34

kids those tools. Often I think

32:37

they find it somewhat irritating. You

32:39

know, we don't have these like

32:41

formal lessons, but I'll put these

32:43

tools out there into the ether.

32:45

Culture is the air we breathe.

32:47

Populate that air with these tools.

32:49

you know, talk about it at

32:51

the dinner table when you're on

32:53

a road trip. You don't have

32:55

to be obnoxious about it, but

32:57

hey, you know, did you know

32:59

that doing this could actually make

33:02

a difference? I had no idea.

33:04

There are ways of slipping that

33:06

into the, into the conversation. And

33:08

I think what parents will find

33:10

is the more they do that,

33:12

the more their kids will uptake

33:14

this information and potentially benefit from

33:16

it. Love it. Ethan, thank you

33:18

so much for the work you

33:20

do, for joining us, for sharing

33:22

it so generously. We're really, really

33:24

glad to have you here. Well,

33:27

thanks so much for being here.

33:29

It was a true delight. So

33:31

appreciate both of you. Thank you.

33:33

The book is called Shift managing

33:35

your emotions, so they don't manage

33:37

you. Ethan Cross. Thank you so

33:39

much for joining us, Ethan. Thanks

33:41

for having me. Okay, Lisa, I

33:43

get it. I see why you

33:45

wanted to have Ethan. You were

33:47

talking about him for months and

33:49

the book arrived and I really

33:52

think what parents will like from

33:54

this book, what I really enjoyed

33:56

was their studies, but they're not

33:58

wonky. Like they're easy to understand

34:00

studies, Lisa, that really make the

34:02

point. So it's, you know. you

34:04

guys have the psychology basis and

34:06

you understand why it works, but

34:08

for us parents having that extra

34:10

link, and also the strategies. I

34:12

think parents will really love learning

34:14

the strategies that are in there.

34:17

Yeah, fantastic. So Lisa, what do

34:19

you have for us for parenting

34:21

to go? Well, I mean, there's

34:23

so much I could say, but

34:25

I'm just going to pick up

34:27

one piece of what Ethan said

34:29

about the time travel piece, and

34:31

he talked in that context around

34:33

a parent using that as a

34:35

strategy to manage in the moment.

34:37

I have learned this from Ethan,

34:39

I think it is so useful,

34:42

and I actually cited it in

34:44

the emotional lives of teenagers, in

34:46

terms of using it with kids.

34:48

And I have used it often

34:50

with kids I care for clinically

34:52

and my own children, where if

34:54

they are having a moment, saying

34:56

to them, how do you think

34:58

you're going to feel about this

35:00

in a couple years, is like

35:02

almost magical, because it's got this

35:04

wonderful combined effect of... staying with

35:06

the feeling. You're not trying to

35:09

talk them out of it. You're

35:11

not trying to disagree with them.

35:13

You're actually increasingly interested in their

35:15

feelings. But like Ethan said, moving

35:17

it into a different time place

35:19

and his research has shown that

35:21

it causes sort of an instant

35:23

sense of relief to actually think

35:25

about, well, in a couple years

35:27

this isn't going to be that

35:29

big a deal. Suddenly, the kids

35:31

feel like, well, maybe right this

35:34

minute it doesn't have to feel

35:36

like such a big deal. So

35:38

I don't think you can use

35:40

this every day. I think you

35:42

can probably use this twice a

35:44

year, but it is effective. And

35:46

I will tell you it as

35:48

a clinician and a parent has

35:50

gotten me through. moments where I

35:52

wasn't sure what else to say.

35:54

So when it is like five

35:56

alarm fire and you know it's

35:59

a big thing from the norm,

36:01

giving them the ability to think

36:03

outside of this moment is perspective

36:05

that they might not otherwise have.

36:07

Yep. And it's just the mind

36:09

has that capacity and it's a

36:11

great thing to call on. When

36:13

a kid feels stuck in something

36:15

that's really lousy and they're having

36:17

an intense moment, you can actually

36:19

bring it under control pretty quickly

36:21

in a loving empathic connected way.

36:24

It's great. It was great. He

36:26

was a wonderful guest and it's

36:28

a great book. Again, it's called

36:30

Shift, managing your emotions so they

36:32

don't manage you. Absolutely fabulous. So

36:34

Lisa, next week, we're going to

36:36

talk about a subject that I

36:38

am dreading already with kids in

36:40

middle school. The college admissions process,

36:42

we are going to have the

36:44

latest. Every year since we've launched

36:46

this podcast, I feel like the

36:49

college admissions process has changed drastically,

36:51

right? drastically, from year to year.

36:53

So we'll get the latest on

36:55

that next week. All right, I'll

36:57

see you next week. I'll see

36:59

you next week. Thanks for joining

37:01

us. Be sure to subscribe to

37:03

the Ask Lisa podcast, so you

37:05

get the episodes just as soon

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as they drop. And send us

37:09

your questions to Ask Lisa at

37:11

Dr. lisademore.com. And now a word

37:13

from our lawyers. The advice provided

37:16

on this podcast does not constitute

37:18

or serve as a substitute for

37:20

professional psychological treatment, therapy, or other

37:22

types of professional advice or intervention.

37:24

If you have concerns about your

37:26

child's well-being, consult a physician or

37:28

mental health professional. If you're looking

37:30

for additional resources, check out Lisa's

37:32

website at Dr. Lisa demore.com.