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Joinbuilt.com/assembly to start earning points

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on your rent payments today. Welcome

1:34

to Assembly Required with

1:36

Stacey Abrams from Cricut Media.

1:38

I'm your host, Stacey

1:40

Abrams. We are recording this

1:42

episode on Tuesday, January

1:44

21st. That's the day after

1:47

Trump's second inauguration where

1:49

he, in a single day,

1:51

signed nearly 200 executive

1:53

actions and laid out a

1:55

dark and troubling vision

1:57

for our future. Rather

2:00

than addressing our nation's most

2:02

pressing challenges by offering real

2:05

solutions, Trump instead launched

2:07

into the many unethical,

2:09

unlawful, or unconstitutional ways

2:11

his administration plans for

2:13

rollback protections for the

2:15

LGBTQ Plus community to

2:17

reverse progress on clean

2:19

energy and climate action,

2:21

to demonize immigrant communities,

2:23

to weaken our military

2:25

and erode equal access

2:27

to opportunity. starting yesterday

2:29

and for weeks and months

2:32

to come. Executive orders, administrative

2:34

rules, and a manipulated media

2:37

will signal a storm of

2:39

change. Not to solve persistent

2:41

crises like unaffordable housing, minimum

2:44

wages that can't match basic

2:46

costs, or a gun safety

2:49

crisis that threatens our youngest

2:51

Americans. Instead, they will focus

2:54

on manufactured crises and... pinning

2:56

blame on people who did

2:58

nothing but simply exist. Our

3:01

job then in this first

3:03

stretch of what will undoubtedly

3:05

be a long four years

3:07

is to understand how much

3:09

of his invective and mean

3:11

spiritedness is policy and how

3:14

much of it is polemical

3:16

because there will be a

3:18

difference. Trump operates like

3:21

a flim-flam artist who uses

3:23

sleight of hand, misdirection, and

3:25

cook coffee to ensnare his

3:27

audience while picking their pockets.

3:29

With that knowledge in hand,

3:31

we will be required to

3:34

filter through the noise and

3:36

through the very real terror

3:38

or depression that his actions

3:40

will undoubtedly cause.

3:42

More worryingly, though, he's not

3:44

in this alone. Tech billionaires have

3:47

decided to cater to his hypocrisy

3:49

in order to curry favor, and

3:51

political leaders who decried his lack

3:54

of patriotism in years past will

3:56

now blindly follow his direction.

3:58

I'm here to remind us though, that we're

4:00

not in this alone either. Just

4:03

yesterday, as his flurry

4:05

of edicts emerged, so too did

4:07

a series of lawsuits. More quietly,

4:10

organizations, prepared for

4:12

take-two of the Trump era,

4:15

put their plans into motion.

4:17

It won't be enough to

4:19

stop everything, but we only

4:22

lose our nation's soul if

4:24

we decide they've already won

4:26

the war. For today's

4:28

episode, we're going to start with

4:30

what we know on day one

4:33

and two, and most importantly,

4:35

what we can do about

4:37

it, together. I couldn't think

4:40

of anyone better to help

4:42

you and me process analyze and

4:44

respond to the events of

4:46

the week than my guest today.

4:49

Melissa Murray is a constitutional law

4:51

professor at NYU and one

4:53

of the esteemed hosts of cricket's

4:56

very own legal podcast, strict

4:58

scrutiny. Melissa, lovely to see you

5:00

as always and thank you so much for

5:02

joining me. Well, thank you for

5:05

having me. Congratulations on the new

5:07

show. Well, thank you, thank you.

5:09

Okay, well, let's go past the

5:11

niceties and plunge into chaos. I

5:14

like to start with where we

5:16

are. We know that a core

5:18

tactic of Trump and his ilk

5:21

is this intentional sense of chaos.

5:23

The constant barrage of news and

5:25

the personnel changes, the shocking policies,

5:28

and the absurd pronouncements. He does

5:30

it because chaos is a very

5:32

effective tool. We know it's distracting,

5:34

it's emotionally exhausting, and it obscures

5:37

reality. So with that is background.

5:39

My first question to you is.

5:41

How much of America can he

5:44

break in the next four years? Oh,

5:46

we have lots of it. We

5:48

are a very fragile country. Democracy

5:51

is by itself a very fragile

5:53

enterprise. We are a democracy that

5:55

has, as I think we saw

5:58

in the first Trump administration,

6:00

relied all too often on norms

6:02

rather than rules. I think a

6:04

big part of what the Biden

6:06

administration did with uneven success was

6:08

try to put more rules in

6:11

place so that we were not

6:13

reliant on norms that could be

6:15

discarded. And, you know, the truth

6:17

of the matter is we're still

6:20

pretty norm-based and we're gonna find

6:22

out how much those norms hold.

6:24

And often. Whether or not norms

6:26

are durable really depend on

6:28

the people observing and enforcing

6:30

those norms and I don't

6:33

know about you, but I think you

6:35

know what I have seen over the

6:37

last couple of weeks are a lot

6:39

of people who are really ready to

6:41

bend the knee and that I think

6:43

is concerning. So I don't want to

6:45

be hyperbolic about this. You know

6:48

people used to say that our

6:50

podcast scrutiny was super hyperbolic about

6:52

the court and we were all

6:55

a bunch of screaming hysterical women

6:57

and then everything we said would

6:59

happen actually happened and so there

7:01

you have it you know we're not

7:04

trying to be Cassandra's here but it

7:06

does seem like there are times when

7:08

we definitely see what's coming and are

7:10

not believed and I think maybe this

7:12

is one of those times to take

7:14

us seriously. So let's assume we're

7:16

taking you seriously. You've said he can

7:18

break a lot. how much of what

7:20

he breaks, assuming we

7:22

can sustain ourselves for

7:25

four years, would be

7:27

eligible for repair? Harder

7:30

to say. Again, I think it's

7:32

a very real concern that

7:34

what might get broken might

7:37

be really difficult to put

7:39

back together, right? You know,

7:42

norms around the peaceful transition

7:44

of power, I think we

7:46

saw can be really fragile. they're

7:49

put back in place now, but

7:51

I think that's likely because he

7:53

won and Democrats were willing to

7:56

have a peaceful transition of power

7:58

unlike the Republicans in 2020. So

8:00

it's hard to say what can

8:03

be irreparably broken, but I think

8:05

there are a lot of things

8:07

that we take for granted that

8:10

might very easily go away. I

8:12

mean, we're already hearing discussions about

8:15

his executive order around

8:17

TikTok. You know say what you

8:19

want about Tic-Toc and we can

8:21

talk about the relative virtues and

8:24

vices of Tic-Toc but the fact

8:26

of the matter is a bipartisan

8:28

Congress passed a ban on Tic-Toc

8:30

requiring Tic-Toc's divestiture of its Chinese

8:33

ownership because of national security concerns.

8:35

passed by Congress with bipartisan support

8:37

and upheld by the United States

8:39

Supreme Court. And now this president

8:42

is saying that he can just

8:44

issue an executive order that proposes

8:46

a 50-50 hybrid ownership model where

8:48

there is 50% American ownership and

8:51

50% Chinese ownership. That is not

8:53

what the law requires. The law

8:55

requires complete divestiture of the foreign

8:57

ownership. And that executive order that

8:59

he's proposing would basically give a

9:01

giant FU to Congress and then

9:04

also give a giant FU. to

9:06

the court that upheld it. That's

9:08

two coordinate branches of government. And

9:10

so we're already on that path

9:12

because this is what he's proposing.

9:14

And I've heard very few people

9:17

talk about this as basically a

9:19

giant middle finger to the whole

9:21

concept of separation of powers and

9:23

the idea that we are a

9:26

government with three coordinate federal

9:28

branches. The Atlantic has

9:30

an amazing article that came

9:32

out earlier this month about the

9:34

53 days it took Hitler and

9:36

his party to take over and

9:39

basically dismantle democracy. One of the

9:41

goals I have on the show

9:43

is to absolutely understand the looming

9:45

specter of what could come, but

9:47

also to make sure we understand

9:50

what tools we have to push back,

9:52

to understand, to respond. So let's

9:54

talk about the Tik ban and

9:56

the... Sure issue of his

9:58

essential ignore. his essential decision

10:01

to ignore the three branches

10:03

of government. What would the right

10:05

response be? So let's say we're going

10:07

to get it, but let's talk through

10:09

what should happen in a democracy

10:12

that does not want to be

10:14

dismantled in 53 days. What should

10:16

we be demanding of those concomitant

10:18

branches of government in this moment

10:21

when it comes to the TikTok

10:23

executive order? So, you know, I

10:25

never thought that I would be like... Go Tom

10:27

Cotton, but I am now with

10:29

a situation where I actually applaud

10:32

Tom Cotton Saying very clearly we

10:34

passed this ban, right? We required

10:36

TikTok to divest itself of

10:38

its Chinese ownership and again, I'm

10:41

putting to the side the

10:43

substantive concerns about a law

10:45

that focuses solely on TikTok

10:47

and ignores the ways in

10:49

which we have normalized the

10:51

harvesting of data by American

10:53

held companies, but there are

10:55

apparently real, foreign, adversary, national

10:58

security interests, all inextricably

11:00

linked to the harvesting of data by

11:03

TikTok and by dance, that Congress who

11:05

had a lot of classified information

11:07

about this thought was significant enough

11:10

to pass this law and to

11:12

do so with bipartisan support. And

11:14

it's also worth noting. Donald Trump's

11:16

administration was the first administration to

11:18

actually see the threat here. Mike

11:20

Pompeo started talking about this in

11:22

July of 2020. In August of

11:24

2020, Donald Trump issued a statement

11:26

about an executive order that he

11:28

was going to put in place

11:30

that would address quote unquote the

11:32

threats posed by Tiktok in the

11:34

United States. It was enacted. The

11:36

executive order immediately challenged in a

11:38

federal court and a preliminary injunction

11:41

was imposed. And then there's sort

11:43

of a shift in the administration.

11:45

The Biden administration picks up the

11:47

cause and starts running that ball.

11:49

They're unsuccessful with an executive order.

11:51

This leads Congress to step in.

11:53

So we've had deliberation from different

11:55

branches here. And now, of course,

11:57

the Supreme Court has weighed in.

11:59

we have to respect that. It

12:01

seems very likely according to Donald Trump

12:04

that there might be an American buyer

12:06

for tic-tac which would again fulfill the

12:08

requirements of the law but it seems

12:11

that he doesn't want to sort of

12:13

take the ordinary protocols in doing this

12:15

he wants to be the sort of

12:18

consummate deal maker and get this deal going

12:20

and it seems like a big part of

12:22

this deal is sort of the

12:24

company's currying favor with the

12:27

administration in order to be

12:29

the one to get the

12:31

final rose and be able

12:33

to buy TikTok for American

12:36

interest. I don't know

12:38

what more to say about it

12:40

than that, but it should concern

12:43

you that we are essentially

12:45

ushering in a leader who thinks

12:47

it's okay to ignore what the

12:50

other branches of government are doing

12:52

and instead to sort of have

12:54

a kind of bidding war between a

12:56

set of brologarks over this company

12:58

like basically the spoils of war

13:00

like this is stuff like that

13:03

you heard about when you read

13:05

the Iliad in high school like

13:07

Agamemnon sitting down with Odysseus and

13:09

Meneles and like all of these

13:11

other Greek kings and divvying up

13:13

the spoils of Troy like that's

13:15

basically what's happening and We're letting it

13:18

having this is monarchial behavior.

13:20

This isn't democratic behavior. One

13:22

of the things I was going to talk

13:24

to you about and you you referenced this

13:26

with the brologarks is that you know

13:28

the tableau we saw yesterday with this

13:31

reimagined inauguration. It was more than just

13:33

the fact that it was moved

13:35

inside. It was the fact that

13:37

unlike previous ceremonies where you had

13:40

family and political allies who got

13:42

the prominent seats, yesterday was basically

13:44

a bending of the need, the

13:46

game of Thrones, where you had

13:48

this coterie of tech CEOs, you

13:50

had Amazon's Jeff Basos, you had

13:52

Metas Mark Zuckerberg, you had Google's

13:54

Sundar Pachai, you had Tiktaks, Show

13:56

Chew, and you had Trump's New Besti

13:59

Elon Musk. Their role in that space

14:01

was exactly what you described.

14:03

It was, we are not only bending

14:05

the knee, but we are here to

14:08

show our tickets to the lottery to

14:10

get to be in the bidding war

14:12

for even more power and even more

14:14

money. You talked about it a little

14:16

bit, but talk a little bit more

14:18

about how you understand this shift

14:20

in tone. I mean, Mark Zuckerberg,

14:22

eight years ago, was involved

14:24

very heavily in actually

14:27

protecting democracy through his

14:29

foundation. Talk about what this

14:31

means for policies and

14:33

practices in this current world

14:36

order. I refuse to say new,

14:38

but in this current world order.

14:40

I think it shows how

14:43

malleable these interests are,

14:45

especially when it comes

14:47

to their bottom lines.

14:49

Like Mark Zuckerberg and

14:51

his wife, Priscilla Chan,

14:53

Health Initiative, right? They have named

14:55

a public health program at

14:58

Harvard. themselves. And they showed

15:00

up and sat in a very

15:02

prominent space at the inauguration

15:04

of someone who subsequently, like

15:07

hours later, divested the United

15:09

States of its membership in the

15:11

World Health Organization. Make that make

15:13

sense. I mean, I think we

15:16

have to like continually call out

15:18

all of this behavior for

15:20

what it is. This isn't about

15:22

national interest. It's about shareholder interest.

15:24

Maybe that's okay if you own

15:26

Facebook stock or meta stock and

15:28

you care about that but for

15:30

the rest of us who don't

15:33

This is really concerning and we have

15:35

to talk about this I think Democrats

15:37

should be shouting this This is your

15:39

populist king. This is the guy that

15:42

you went to the polls talking about

15:44

your eggs and your milk like

15:46

This guy is hanging out

15:48

with actual billionaires instead of

15:50

giving the seats in his

15:53

inauguration to ordinary Americans who supported

15:55

him and believed that he was going to

15:57

make a better life for them and their

15:59

family. He stacked the deck with

16:01

a bunch of people who

16:04

literally have the collective

16:06

GDP of this country in

16:08

their pockets. I mean, make

16:10

that make sense. And we

16:13

should be talking about that.

16:15

What is this populism? Like,

16:17

this isn't populism. This is...

16:20

oligarchy and we should be really clear

16:22

about that. These people have been sold

16:24

a bill of goods and they're going

16:26

to get shafted. And what's going to

16:28

happen when they get shafted? Who's going

16:30

to pick up the pieces? If we

16:32

even have shards that we can put

16:34

back together, those are the real questions.

16:36

We are divesting ourselves of all

16:38

of the guardrails, whether it's on

16:40

the health front with the World

16:43

Health Organization or abandoning the Paris

16:45

Accords and thinking about climate change

16:47

as California literally burns. Like,

16:49

what's left? We're just going

16:51

to have a country that's

16:53

safe for oligarchs and not

16:55

for the rest of us. And

16:57

we need to be shouting that. We

17:00

need to be talking about that.

17:02

And again, we just cannot

17:04

go quietly into this good

17:06

night. And that's what they're

17:08

counting on. People literally just

17:11

shutting up, sitting back, because

17:13

it's too exhausting to

17:15

participate. as a strategy or cast

17:17

of attack. We've even talked about like,

17:19

this is the whole, the whole chaos

17:21

theory is the entire theory behind

17:23

the nominees to the various positions

17:26

in this administration. I

17:28

mean, absolutely. We get Matt Gates

17:30

and all we talk about is

17:32

like how unbelievably chaotic and abnormal

17:35

that would be. And when it doesn't

17:37

happen, we're less willing to

17:39

interrogate. the appointment of Pam

17:41

Bondi, who also raises some real red

17:43

flags, which is not to say she

17:45

isn't qualified, she's a lawyer, she's a

17:47

Florida AG, but the DOJ is a

17:49

huge complicated organism where you are not

17:52

just in charge of main justice, you're

17:54

in charge of the 93 US Attorney's

17:56

offices around the country, you're in charge

17:59

of ATF, DEA. BI, US Marshall

18:01

Service, this is a huge organization.

18:03

What are your managerial chops? Like

18:05

that's a question we should be

18:07

asking. What happened as Attorney General

18:09

when this guy who's now nominated

18:11

you, there were all of these

18:13

complaints about his for -profit university? Like

18:15

let's talk about that. We

18:17

just gave, we're giving us a pass essentially

18:20

because it's not as crazy as some

18:22

of the other things that have been put

18:24

before us. And I think

18:26

part of the way I describe it is

18:28

that he marries chaos with iconic plastic

18:30

behavior. So he breaks cultural

18:32

norms, he breaks political norms.

18:34

And then we spend all

18:36

of our time sort of

18:38

trying to explain or complain

18:41

about it. And we ignore that

18:43

this is Blitzkrieg. This is shock

18:45

and awe. And it allows him

18:47

to then stand there before the

18:49

American people and use his inaugural

18:51

address as a revenge tally and

18:53

a target list against the vulnerable

18:55

and marginalized communities. It's also a

18:58

litany of promises that are both

19:00

within and completely outside his authority,

19:02

such as it's currently situated. And

19:04

we just talked about the tech

19:06

contingent that bit the knee, but

19:08

let's talk about his executive order,

19:10

for example, to end federal censorship. So

19:14

there are a few ways to interpret

19:16

those comments, but this is more than

19:18

likely a reference to

19:20

the before times of Mark

19:22

Zuckerberg when we had

19:24

leaders in our country who

19:26

controlled social media, who

19:28

wanted to stop the spread

19:30

of dangerous misinformation online.

19:32

But what we are now

19:34

facing is this incursion

19:36

into free speech. How can

19:38

we understand this saga? And

19:40

when we hear about an executive

19:42

order banning censorship, what does that

19:44

mean? Well, so

19:46

I think one way you have to understand

19:49

this is the interest in quote,

19:51

unquote, government censorship is

19:53

part of a broader complaint

19:56

of conservative grievance, if you

19:58

will, about wokeness. called wokeness.

20:00

It's not simply about government censorship,

20:02

because there is no government arm

20:05

saying you can't say this or

20:07

you can't say that. First of

20:09

all, all of these platforms are

20:11

private. The First Amendment doesn't apply

20:14

in private. circumstances like those. The

20:16

First Amendment only applies as against

20:18

state actors, so the federal government,

20:20

state, and local governments, not TikTok,

20:23

not meta. So the idea that

20:25

the government was doing any of

20:27

this and there was a First

20:29

Amendment problem is just fundamentally misguided

20:32

in the first instance, but it

20:34

is a longstanding conservative grievance that

20:36

on these platforms, quote unquote conservative

20:38

speech is being censored because of

20:40

quote unquote wokeness. confined to this

20:43

president. Like, we've heard the same

20:45

litany of complaints from members of

20:47

Congress. We have heard the same

20:49

litany of complaints from members of

20:52

the United States Supreme Court. This

20:54

is something that the conservative legal

20:56

movement and conservatives more generally have

20:58

been stoking for a long time,

21:01

this idea that if you raise

21:03

objections to how they want to

21:05

talk to people about people, then

21:07

it's wokeness and it's intended to

21:09

censor them as opposed to simply

21:12

observing a set of norms that

21:14

provides for civil discourse in a

21:16

pluralistic society. And I would lump

21:18

the end all-government censorship in with

21:21

the other executive orders or proposed

21:23

executive orders that will invoke Martin

21:25

Luther King. junior and call for

21:27

a quote-unquote color-blind and merit-based society.

21:30

Talk to me more about the

21:32

merit-based society after we confirm Pete

21:34

Hexat, because I've got real questions

21:36

about merit. All of it, I

21:39

think, is clustered around this antipathy

21:41

for woke, this idea that conservatives

21:43

are being persecuted for their beliefs,

21:45

for their speech by this broad

21:47

woke mob. And, you know, like,

21:50

I'm going to get into the

21:52

weeds here, but I think this

21:54

is part of a larger movement.

21:56

both in legal culture at the

21:59

Supreme Court. and our broader

22:01

social discourse generally to

22:03

kind of remake who we understand

22:06

as minorities who are under

22:08

siege, besieged by external

22:10

forces in society. I

22:12

mean, I think traditionally

22:15

we have thought of

22:17

racial minorities, religious minorities

22:19

like Muslims and Sikhs

22:21

as being sort of

22:23

the classic minority groups who

22:25

are often. subordinate at

22:28

the will of the majority. I

22:30

think they are completely inverting that

22:32

right now with a lot of

22:34

the sort of woke language and

22:36

this concern about censorship and conservative

22:38

grievance. Now the real minorities in their

22:40

view are the Christian evangelicals, the white

22:42

people who are subject to these DEA

22:45

mandates that keep jobs away from them

22:47

or whatnot. Does that make sense? It

22:49

does. I mean, last week we had

22:52

this conversation with Kenji Yoshino about the

22:54

resilience of DEA. And in fact, the

22:56

fact that We had the inauguration on

22:58

the day that we celebrate

23:00

Martin Luther King Jr.

23:02

and his deeply misappropriated

23:05

sentiments. What we talked

23:07

about was the fact that in

23:09

17 years, this is a nation

23:11

that will be a majority minority

23:14

country and that no racial majority,

23:16

that no racial group will hold

23:18

the majority. But we also

23:20

had a conversation about all

23:23

of the other groups that

23:25

are contained within the conversation

23:27

of diversity, equity, and inclusion,

23:30

and that the notions of

23:32

merit are facile at best. But

23:34

what Trump is doing is he's

23:36

using a playbook, and you're absolutely

23:39

right that this is not new,

23:41

and he is not the progenitor.

23:43

He is simply a fairly effective

23:46

user of this playbook.

23:48

They intentionally misrepresent the

23:50

aims of the women's

23:52

rights. They are misrepresenting.

23:54

They're co-opting it. Like

23:56

they're the new wolf warriors.

23:59

They're the. ones restoring society

24:01

and making things color

24:03

blind and merit-based. They're

24:05

taking the language of

24:08

civil rights, but now

24:10

they're just applying it to

24:12

these other groups, like whether it's

24:14

the faithful, Christian evangelicals, or working

24:17

class whites, whom the Supreme Court

24:19

says it has been completely. aggrieved

24:21

and put out by the fact

24:23

that Joe Biden had student loan

24:26

relief for people who went to

24:28

college. I mean like it's that

24:30

kind of thing like they are

24:32

literally using the language of Brown

24:35

of Martin Luther King Jr. of

24:37

the civil rights movement to undermine

24:39

the groups that those movements were

24:41

trying to lift up because they

24:43

had been subordinated for so long

24:46

and instead they're uplifting a group

24:48

of people who I think In

24:50

most circumstances, we would have

24:52

understood to be part of

24:54

the majority that had enjoyed

24:56

power for all of that time.

24:58

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you rack. We know that this attempted

27:00

perversion while it is taking the

27:02

headlines. It has not been completely

27:04

achieved. And I think part of

27:06

what I want to always bring

27:08

us back to is that the point

27:10

of today's conversation is to

27:12

hallmark what we should be

27:14

concerned about, but to remind

27:16

ourselves that we're not there

27:18

yet, that there are ways

27:21

to impede the stampede towards

27:23

ignominy. You, I think, very

27:25

eloquently described our responsibility to

27:27

speak up. We have to

27:29

understand that chaos and that

27:31

breaking cultural norms are tactics

27:33

in their strategy. But there

27:35

are also structural impediments to his

27:37

executive orders, to his actions. Can

27:40

you talk a little bit about

27:42

what he can do by Fiat

27:44

and what we can do that can

27:47

prevent some of his more dangerous

27:49

ideas from taking immediate effect?

27:51

So I think one thing we

27:53

need to recognize is that We are

27:55

a government of limited powers,

27:57

like each branch has limited

27:59

powers. powers. The president is not

28:01

a king, although the Supreme Court

28:03

has perhaps expanded the scope of

28:05

presidential authority beyond what we might

28:07

have understood it to be even

28:09

a year ago. But these

28:11

executive orders, I think, are

28:14

subject to legal challenge, and they should

28:16

be challenged in court. And there are

28:18

a lot of people who think that's

28:20

just a dead letter, because once it

28:22

gets to the United States Supreme Court,

28:24

you've got a conservative supermajority of six

28:26

justices, three of whom were appointed by

28:28

Donald Trump. It's in the bag for

28:30

him. Maybe, maybe not,

28:33

right? I think we

28:35

have seen flashes of

28:37

conscience and integrity from some of these

28:39

judges. I

28:41

think Amy Coney Barrett has

28:43

very much made clear

28:45

and almost I think shown flashes of

28:47

independence from the president who nominated her

28:49

on circumstances where she thinks the text

28:51

of the Constitution is really plain. I

28:53

don't agree with all of her decisions.

28:55

I don't agree with most of her

28:57

decisions. But I do think there have

28:59

been times when she's held the line.

29:01

And all it takes is

29:03

a couple of people to hold the

29:06

line. So no, I don't think we're going

29:08

to have Brown versus Board of Education,

29:10

where it's a unanimous court saying that segregation

29:12

is absolutely terrible and defies constitutional norms.

29:14

But I do think it could be five

29:16

to four. And I think we have

29:18

to hope for that. So the filing of

29:20

lawsuits, staying on this, talking about this,

29:22

when you hear about the TikTok executive order,

29:25

we should be talking about how can

29:27

you do that? How can you defy two

29:29

branches of government who also have power?

29:31

We shouldn't be just accepting, well, that sounds

29:33

really interesting. I would love to get back

29:35

on these reels. No, we should be

29:37

talking about the fact that that doesn't make

29:39

any sense in a system of limited

29:41

government. And we have a system of limited

29:44

government because we have a Constitution. When

29:46

he starts talking about ending birthright citizenship, we

29:48

should be like saying, excuse me, I

29:50

thought you just literally took an oath to

29:52

the Constitution. The Constitution is very plain.

29:54

The 14th Amendment says that if you are

29:56

born in this country, you are

29:58

a citizen. And that amendment was literally

30:00

put in place after the

30:02

Civil War to repudiate Dred Scott

30:04

versus Sanford, where the United

30:06

States Supreme Court said that black

30:08

people could never be citizens,

30:10

because they would always be descended

30:12

from African slaves. The 14th

30:14

Amendment is a repudiation of that.

30:16

If you're born in this

30:19

country, you are a citizen. So

30:21

when he moves to say,

30:23

no, I'm ending this, he cannot

30:25

do that unilaterally. He can

30:27

amend the Constitution if he can

30:29

do all of the things

30:31

laid out in Article 5 to

30:33

do that. But he cannot

30:35

suesponte, just go and end birthright

30:37

citizenship. And we should be talking

30:39

about that. Well, another group

30:41

that is under siege, of course,

30:43

is the LGBTQ plus community.

30:45

The GOP has weaponized transgender rights

30:47

and Trump in his flurry signed

30:49

an order to make it

30:51

the official policy of the US

30:53

government that there can only

30:55

be two genders, male and female.

30:57

Let's ignore the fact that male

30:59

and female are not genders.

31:01

But we know that he framed

31:03

it as protecting women from

31:05

gender ideology extremism. Can he really

31:07

do that? And let's talk a

31:09

little bit about how this

31:11

rigid definition of gender, which is

31:13

actually separate from sex, can

31:16

harm people of all genders? I

31:19

mean, I don't even

31:21

know what to say about

31:23

this executive order defending

31:25

women from gender ideology extremism

31:27

and restoring biological truth

31:29

to the federal government. One

31:31

thing I will note

31:34

is that it specifically calls

31:36

out the Supreme Court's

31:38

2020 decision in Boston versus

31:40

Clayton County. That was

31:42

the decision of the United

31:44

States Supreme Court that

31:46

said that Title VII of

31:48

the Civil Rights Act,

31:50

which prohibits discrimination on the

31:53

basis of sex, that

31:55

kind of discrimination includes discrimination

31:57

on the basis of

31:59

sexual orientation or gender identity.

32:01

That's a decision of

32:03

the Supreme Court. Here it

32:05

says the prior administration

32:07

has tried to expand that

32:09

decision and this administration doesn't believe that

32:12

that decision was right. Well, it doesn't matter if

32:14

they don't believe that it's right. That's a decision

32:16

of the Supreme Court. And to be clear, the

32:18

Supreme Court will have an opportunity this term to

32:20

determine whether or not the Constitution goes so far

32:22

as to allow a state to ban gender affirming

32:24

care for minors on the basis of sex. But

32:26

until the Supreme Court actually says what the

32:28

equal protection clause means in that circumstance.

32:31

It's not for the president to do

32:33

that. So I mean, I think we

32:35

have to be really clear about this.

32:37

Like, yes, you can say all of

32:39

these things, I guess, and yes, you

32:42

can impose this ban on transgender identity

32:44

recognition in the military in your role

32:46

as commander-in-chief, but you can't do all

32:48

of this. And it's not as your

32:51

powers aren't as sweeping in this arena

32:53

as perhaps you might think, and we

32:55

just have to push on this continually

32:57

continually. And also remind people, like, yes,

32:59

this is targeting the trans

33:02

community, but it doesn't end

33:04

with the trans community. If

33:06

you read this executive order, the

33:09

language is broadly about sex and

33:11

gender and Title IX and Title

33:13

VII. These are all federal statutes.

33:16

that were initially enacted to protect

33:18

women in the workplace and to

33:20

allow women the right to obtain

33:22

an education on equal footing with

33:25

men. You start rolling back these

33:27

protections, whether it's by executive order

33:29

or something else, it's not just

33:32

the trans community that's impacted. It's

33:34

women. It's men who don't comport

33:36

with traditional gender roles around masculinity,

33:38

like men who may think it's

33:40

okay to wear a baby be

33:42

worn or take care of their

33:45

kids publicly. All of those people

33:47

get dinged on something like this.

33:49

I mean, it's basically an executive

33:51

order that traffics in trans

33:53

hate, but really has at

33:55

its bottom line the imposition of

33:57

traditional sex roles for both.

34:00

gender, whether you want those roles or

34:02

not. This is just for those who

34:04

did not go to law school,

34:06

which amendment of the Constitution includes

34:09

the Equal Protection Clause? That would

34:11

be the 14th. amendment Stacy. That's

34:13

the amendment they most dislike. It's

34:15

the amendment where you have that

34:17

pesky clause about not being an

34:20

insurrectionist and then subsequently running for

34:22

office. We've handled that. The Supreme

34:24

Court has handled that one. It's

34:26

basically dead on arrival. Now they're

34:28

going forward trying to kill the

34:30

whole thing and Cheryl and Eiffel,

34:33

who is just fantastic in every

34:35

possible way. has literally been doing

34:37

a public service, like reminding everyone

34:39

that the 14th Amendment is not

34:41

just a figment of the woke

34:43

imagination. It's an actual thing. It's

34:46

in the Constitution. It was passed

34:48

in the wake of the American

34:50

Civil War to effectively roll back

34:52

all of the damage that enslavement.

34:54

caused in this society and the

34:56

whole idea of status hierarchies like

34:59

enslavement caused in this society. So

35:01

it impacts racial discrimination, gender discrimination,

35:03

discrimination for a variety of different reasons.

35:05

And yes, we have a Supreme Court

35:07

who I think would studiously like to

35:10

avoid or pretend that the 14th Amendment

35:12

doesn't exist, but it does exist. And

35:14

we have to keep reminding people that

35:17

it does exist. It is a means

35:19

for Congress to act to remedy discrimination

35:21

and It serves as a font of

35:23

individual rights for all of us. Even

35:26

those of us who are not here

35:28

lawfully get the benefit of

35:30

the 14th Amendment. Assembly required

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37:10

So we've talked about his Chaos

37:12

Playbook. We have talked about his

37:15

icon of class playbook. One other

37:17

thing he likes to do, one of

37:19

his other fools, is to mock and

37:21

delegitimize the names of what he doesn't

37:23

like and then to bestow what he

37:26

considers honorifics to promote what he prefers.

37:28

You and I saw this when we were

37:30

in elementary school because this is a classic

37:32

tactic for bullies and it's a great

37:34

way to gain sick offense. And we

37:36

think about how nicknames in school either

37:38

made you a laughing stock or made

37:40

you very popular. Trump just brought it

37:43

to the White House. So in

37:45

a moment of national fracture, he

37:47

decided that Denali, the highest peak

37:49

in North America, would be renamed

37:51

for President William McKinley. And so

37:53

for some history here, President Obama

37:56

changed the name of the mountain

37:58

to Denali in 2015. to follow

38:00

through a decades-long request by

38:02

the state of Alaska to

38:05

honor Native Americans. So let's talk

38:07

a little bit about both the

38:09

tactical intent of this, but also

38:12

what are the legal implications of

38:14

a change like this? And if

38:16

there aren't any legal implications, why

38:19

do you think he is so

38:21

focused as a president on insulting

38:23

the wishes of Native Alaskans? Let

38:26

me just say one thing. I object

38:28

to calling him an icon of class.

38:30

I don't call him an icon of

38:32

class. I use the definition of

38:35

a con of plastic is to

38:37

challenge norms. So his actions may

38:39

be icon of classic, but no,

38:41

he is absolutely, he's a flimp

38:43

flame artist. He is a better,

38:46

better. Better. The Danali thing is

38:48

actually really fascinating because who was

38:50

really mad about this? I mean,

38:52

it simply was a nod to

38:55

the fact that the indigenous

38:57

people of Alaska had called

38:59

this Danali for centuries to

39:01

refer to this mountain and

39:03

this area. I think part

39:06

of it is just kind

39:08

of undoing everything that Barack

39:10

Obama did. That's part of

39:12

it. I also think there

39:14

is. a view among some that changing

39:16

the name to a name preferred

39:18

by Native Americans that reflected Native

39:21

American heritage was somehow woke as

39:23

opposed to respectful or whatnot. And

39:25

no one was really complaining in

39:28

Alaska. Lots of people were fine

39:30

with this, but I think this

39:32

is just generally again, the

39:34

disruption, the overturning, like the

39:37

meat to the base, like here's more

39:39

wokeness that we're going to

39:41

completely eradicate, like, you know,

39:43

they tried to. William McKinley.

39:45

I mean, they're basically acting

39:47

like people were sandblasting the

39:49

faces off Mount Rushmore and

39:51

replacing them with Cardi B

39:53

and Glorilla or something. Like,

39:55

it wasn't that deep. Again,

39:57

it's more chaos, I think.

39:59

We're talking about this now, when

40:01

it's not actually as big a

40:03

deal as some of the other things that

40:06

are happening, it didn't have to happen. It

40:08

is a big deal in that it's, again,

40:10

just sort of disruption for

40:12

the sake of disruption and disrespect for the

40:14

sake of disrespect. But I think we

40:17

should object to it, but I also

40:19

think we ought to be aware that

40:21

this was not even the worst thing

40:23

that's been announced. It wasn't the worst

40:25

thing and I completely agree with you.

40:27

I think the reason it's important is

40:29

it gives us an example of what

40:32

not to pay attention to. What I

40:34

want to accomplish is that when people

40:36

leave this conversation, they know how to

40:38

process what they're hearing. He's not mad

40:40

at... Mount Denali. He's mad at Brock

40:42

O'Connor. Yeah. I see I refuse

40:44

to use that word because they

40:46

have completely perverted the intention of

40:49

what a group of black women

40:51

described as a way of understanding

40:53

and navigating spaces that were hostile.

40:55

And this intention is important. So

40:57

much in the way that you

40:59

pushed back on iconoclastic, which

41:02

I think is completely appropriate and

41:04

I'm glad you had me explain

41:06

it. Part of the reason for this

41:08

show is that we're going to get

41:11

bombarded with so much information. We've got

41:13

to learn how to filter what we're

41:15

hearing. He's changing the name so we

41:17

don't pay attention to the fact that

41:20

he intends harm. He's changing the name

41:22

of the Gulf of Mexico. And this

41:24

one's more obvious. He clearly has this

41:27

longstanding demonization of our neighbor to the

41:29

South and our trading partner. And he's

41:31

hoping that by changing the name, we

41:33

will ignore the fact that he is

41:36

now abdicating his core campaign promise,

41:38

which was to enact universal

41:40

tariffs on all foreign goods on

41:42

day one. Except day one came

41:44

and went, and instead of enacting

41:47

the tariffs, he issued a trade

41:49

memoranda. And then he also created

41:51

An external revenue service. The external

41:53

revenue service. Yeah, exactly. So I want

41:55

to pay you. You can't create

41:57

the external revenue service without Congress.

42:00

So I was about to ask. So and

42:02

part of the importance of this conversation

42:04

and pointing these things out is

42:06

that he's going to like a flim flame

42:08

artist. And I use that because it

42:11

is the most precise term I can think

42:13

to describe how he does it. He's going

42:15

to have us pay attention to changing

42:17

the name of the Gulf of

42:19

Mexico, hoping we won't remember that

42:21

he swore for the entirety of

42:24

the campaign that he was going

42:26

to impose these tariffs. He's going

42:28

to create doge. and the external

42:30

revenue service, neither of which can

42:32

he do under his own imprimatur.

42:34

And he's going to issue a

42:36

trade memorandum that has what force and

42:39

effect. And so what I'd love for

42:41

you to talk about for a few

42:43

minutes is when we hear these things,

42:45

how should we filter the impact?

42:47

Because there is a difference between

42:49

policy and polemic. between practice and

42:51

what he hopes we won't notice,

42:54

which is that it's wishful thinking

42:56

on his part. And then there's

42:58

just this basic thing we've had

43:00

in this country for a while

43:02

called law. And so can you

43:04

do a little bit of unpacking?

43:06

Because I think whether it's Danali

43:08

or the equal protection clause or

43:10

the Gulf of Mexico, they're all

43:13

designed to distract us from

43:15

pettiness and weakness, but also

43:17

from what we should hold

43:19

accountable in our government.

43:22

It's not just meant, I

43:24

think, as a distraction, it

43:26

is meant to gin up

43:28

and inspire his base. I

43:30

mean, he has a base

43:32

of people who want Mount

43:34

Danale to be Mount

43:36

McKinley again. And you know,

43:39

like, I don't know if many

43:41

of them know about what

43:43

McKinley stood for as president.

43:45

But they know that they

43:47

don't want an American president

43:49

to be subverted for

43:51

this older Native American

43:53

term that suggests that maybe

43:55

we are actually a pluralistic

43:57

country and that natives have

43:59

some. stake in what we do

44:01

here. So I think that's part of

44:03

it. It's not simply about distraction. It

44:06

is about feeding the beast, right? He's

44:08

a quote unquote populist president

44:10

who trades on America First.

44:12

This is part of America

44:14

First. I'm taking the Gulf

44:16

of Mexico and asserting dominance,

44:19

talking about manifest destiny in

44:21

an inaugural address. I mean,

44:23

like. you know, Frederick Jackson Turner would

44:25

like a word like what if

44:27

we heard manifest destiny and we

44:29

weren't purchasing the Louisiana territory from

44:31

France like I mean, we've kind

44:33

of gone to the ends of literally

44:35

this continent and now he's talking about

44:37

like we're going to populate Mars as

44:40

well. I mean, so some of this

44:42

just seems outlandish, but it is meant

44:44

for his supporters, his most ardent supporters,

44:46

not the people in the middle, not

44:48

the people who are interested in the

44:50

price of eggs or the people who

44:52

believe that America is in decline

44:55

because it no longer looks the

44:57

way it used to. So you've

44:59

got to triage some of

45:01

this, like recognizing that's for

45:03

them. And the rest of this

45:06

stuff is actually for us

45:08

and will impact our lives

45:10

in real and material ways

45:12

that may not extend to

45:14

his base. And they're not

45:16

supposed to. The stuff that's important, like

45:18

that's the stuff we have to

45:20

address, like the stuff for them

45:22

is often superficial and not terribly

45:24

substantive, but the other stuff, that's

45:26

the stuff we've got to pay attention

45:28

to and keep our eye on the

45:30

ball. And, you know, Lisa Murkowski came

45:33

out and issued a statement about renaming

45:35

Mount Denali, good on her and good

45:37

on her for respecting the people of

45:39

her constituents in Alaska, many of whom

45:41

are native. I want her to talk

45:43

about other things too. But I think

45:45

part of our responsibility

45:48

is to understand all

45:50

of those pieces. Yes, we want

45:52

her to talk about other things.

45:54

We just watched the

45:57

incoming president pardon 1500

45:59

people. who had been convicted

46:01

of crimes related to an

46:03

insurrection. And as I mentioned earlier,

46:06

there's that article in the

46:08

Atlantic about how Hitler dismantled

46:11

democracy in 53 days. The importance,

46:13

I think, of laying out

46:15

what is superficial but

46:17

attention-grabbing, what is substantive, and

46:19

what is, if not impossible than

46:22

improbable, is that we've got to

46:24

live with all of these pieces.

46:26

all the time. That's going to

46:28

be throwing this out of treeaging.

46:30

I mean, like, it's hard to triage

46:32

when everything is coming through

46:35

at once. I mean, like, and

46:37

that's, I think, also what they

46:39

are counting on. How do you

46:41

prioritize when you're just literally drinking

46:44

from a fire hydrant of absolute

46:46

crap? Well, part of it

46:48

is that you figure out which part is crap

46:50

versus which part is hydration and you

46:52

figure out. And that's part of why

46:55

I think today's conversation has been so

46:57

important. A lot of this is cholera

46:59

water, Stacey. I mean, I don't think

47:01

you're getting electrolytes. Well, we may not

47:03

be getting electrolytes, but part of the

47:05

responsibility we have in this moment. And

47:07

this goes back to your point of

47:09

people saying they're going to just check

47:11

out. People check out when they think

47:13

there's no reason to pay attention. And

47:16

so one of our

47:18

responsibilities is to give them a

47:20

reason to pay attention, but then

47:22

to also give them, going back

47:24

to Greek mythology, we've got to

47:26

also give them a map through

47:28

the labyrinth. So, you know, ignore

47:30

the pretty doggy that's been carved

47:33

into the hedge because that's

47:35

actually, you know, cerebral and

47:37

he's going to eat you alive. So,

47:40

go this way. We've got this, we've

47:42

got four years of... these attacks

47:44

and of these faints. We've

47:46

got four years of absurdity

47:49

that will often be used

47:51

to cloak intentional harm. And

47:54

we've got to be able

47:56

to navigate it. And part

47:59

of that is... that as fragile as

48:01

the Supreme Court has made the nature

48:03

of the rule of law, we still

48:05

have laws. As terrifying as it is

48:08

that we live in a legal landscape

48:10

where the president can suborn the violent

48:12

overthrow of our government, Congress has to

48:14

get reelected in two years. So what

48:17

I want us to think about, and

48:19

I want to close with this, is

48:21

I want you to help me give

48:23

people a way to understand the overwhelming.

48:26

so we can get to the parts

48:28

of the problem we can tackle. You

48:30

used the Minotaur and the labyrinth as

48:33

an illusion here. I think it's an

48:35

apt one. I am reminded of the

48:37

fact that Theseus who made it through

48:39

the labyrinth unscathed by the Minotaur got

48:42

all the tools to do so from

48:44

a woman Ariadni. She often goes unmentioned

48:46

as we hail Theseus for his bravery.

48:48

I think there are a lot of

48:51

tools available. many of them offered by

48:53

women who are trying to sort of

48:55

focus on the current moment, many of

48:58

them black women. Like I, Charlotte Eiffel's

49:00

sub stack is I think a huge

49:02

source of filtering for me, like trying

49:04

to like push out the dross and

49:07

actually, okay, this is what I need

49:09

to focus on. This is the real

49:11

problem. So I read her sub stack

49:13

constantly on our podcast strict scrutiny and

49:16

this is not a plug restrict scrutiny,

49:18

but we've been talking for a long

49:20

time about you like, like, you know,

49:22

How do we focus and filter? Because

49:25

it gets really monotonous and it will

49:27

get really monotonous if we're just like,

49:29

well, here comes this next case. Like,

49:32

I wonder what the conservative supermajority. So

49:34

we are trying to identify, you know,

49:36

listening really carefully at oral argument, parsing

49:38

really finely in the language of their

49:41

opinions, like, where is the play in

49:43

the joints? Where are their opportunities where

49:45

someone unexpected, like Amy Kone Barrett, is

49:47

going to do something. that is actually

49:50

really useful. Where are the arguments that

49:52

can be made in the future because

49:54

they missed this hole in the argument

49:57

and it opens something up. So I

49:59

think you need people who are doing

50:01

those like there's a lot of stuff

50:03

coming in. How do you triage and

50:06

find you know the diamond in all

50:08

of that crap that you can use

50:10

going forward for a better argument for

50:12

a better argument for a more successful

50:15

appeal? Who are the people that you're

50:17

going to listen to as you make

50:19

these arguments over the Thanksgiving table with

50:21

your magga uncle like that might convince

50:24

him that might help him to understand

50:26

what this moment actually means? I don't

50:28

think you have to do this alone.

50:31

I appreciate that it feels really lonely

50:33

right now and it feels really dismal,

50:35

but there is actually, I think, uplift

50:37

in community and your community is not

50:40

just who's physically around you. It's like

50:42

who are the people with whom you

50:44

are engaging across time and space and

50:47

in these different spaces. And so I'm

50:49

really glad that I have Leah and

50:51

Kate on strict scrutiny to bounce these

50:53

things around with it has helped at

50:56

a time when it has felt

50:58

overwhelming what's coming and it's good

51:00

to know that we can work together

51:02

to kind of sift through this

51:04

and find the places where you know

51:06

there's a little push and perhaps

51:08

some play in the joints. And

51:11

I think that's exactly right. And

51:13

I also want to remind people

51:15

that triage is the first step.

51:17

We also have to get to

51:19

treatment. And part of getting to

51:21

treatment is diagnosis. And for

51:23

the foreseeable future, we're going to

51:26

be facing chaos. We're going to

51:28

watch the wielding of legitimate power

51:30

that is in search of illegitimate

51:32

ends. We're going to have the

51:34

complicity of brologarts who have abandoned

51:37

any pretense of moral interest

51:39

in favor of having expanded

51:41

influence. And we are going to

51:43

face yet again the patentry of

51:45

a presidency that is used to

51:47

attack the weak and the vulnerable

51:49

and those who are unable to

51:51

fight back. In this moment, when

51:54

we get past triage, treatment

51:56

is also about how can

51:58

people of courage... and good

52:00

faith, how can activist

52:02

and ordinary citizens push

52:05

back against these policies?

52:07

Because part of our

52:09

responsibility, and I think this is what

52:11

you all talk about so much on strict

52:13

scrutiny from a legal perspective,

52:16

is that we have to

52:18

fight back because our complacency

52:20

gives them permission to do more.

52:23

Or worse, when we think that

52:25

we no longer deserve more, they

52:27

take it even further. What kind

52:29

of homework do you want to give to

52:31

our audience? As you can imagine,

52:33

many folks write in asking for ways

52:35

they can personally do something. And

52:38

you talked about taking care of

52:40

each other. What's your advice for how

52:42

we get through the next four years?

52:44

What are the active things we

52:46

can do besides listening to strict

52:48

scrutiny? I think one thing that

52:50

has served me well just in lots

52:53

of times, not just this time

52:55

where I felt overwhelmed by whatever

52:57

is coming at me. You can't ostrich.

52:59

I'm talking about just completely

53:02

sticking your head in the sand

53:04

to what is going on

53:06

because it is too overwhelming

53:08

or depressing to even contemplate.

53:10

I get that it's depressing.

53:12

I get that it is

53:14

overwhelming. But to your point about

53:17

triage diagnosis and treatment,

53:19

if you found a lump in

53:21

your stomach, you wouldn't just

53:23

be like, you know what? I'm going

53:26

to like ignore this and maybe it

53:28

will go away. You would get yourself

53:30

to your primary care provider to figure

53:32

out what it is so you could

53:34

address it. That's kind of where we

53:37

are. Like there is literally a cancer

53:39

in our society and are we just

53:41

going to like, what's this tumor? I

53:43

don't know. I'm just going to ignore

53:45

it because it's awful where we have

53:48

to figure out what it is, what

53:50

it's likely impact will be. and how we

53:52

are going to treat it. And that requires

53:54

you to just literally get your head out

53:56

of the sand, even though it is more

53:58

comfortable, it is safer. feels better. You know,

54:01

I had a moment after the election where

54:03

like, yeah, I was looking my wounds and

54:05

it was, you know, awful. But I'm back

54:07

and I'm engaged and like I'm reading, I'm

54:09

looking at things, I am watching news,

54:11

I'm reading lots, I'm reading lots of

54:13

different outlets at this point, I'm just

54:15

to make sure I understand what's going

54:17

on, what are the threats to me,

54:19

what are the threats to my family,

54:21

what are the threats to the people

54:23

that I care about and the communities

54:25

I care about, because If you are

54:27

someone who genuinely cares, I think most

54:29

of us do. You've got to take your

54:31

head out of the sand. I mean, and I

54:34

get it, I know it's hard, I know it's

54:36

difficult, and I know nobody wants to watch this,

54:38

but we have to. We have to stay watching.

54:40

Melissa Murray, thank you so much for

54:43

being on, a simply required. Thanks

54:45

for having me. Yesterday

54:51

marked the return of what had

54:53

once been an era of resistance

54:56

and now must be an age

54:58

of insistence. We must insist on

55:00

holding our values, our beliefs, and

55:02

our right to demand more. How

55:05

we can do that together is

55:07

by acting against what can

55:09

feel inevitable until we examine

55:11

it more closely. Like we

55:13

have from the beginning, we're

55:16

going to find opportunities to

55:18

make a difference, to work

55:20

on solutions and share resources

55:22

through our toolkit. At

55:24

Assembly required, we encourage

55:26

the audience to be curious,

55:28

solve problems, and do good.

55:30

So, let's start with being

55:33

curious. If

55:35

there's a policy Trump mentioned or

55:37

an executive order coming through in

55:40

these first 100 days that sounds

55:42

troubling to you, and many of

55:44

them will, do what you can to

55:46

learn more. Listen to legal experts

55:49

like Melissa and her strict scrutiny

55:51

co-host who can break down what

55:53

is and is not allowed under

55:55

our law. And that gets us

55:58

to solving problems. Trump's

56:00

actions aren't edicts from a monarch.

56:02

They can be challenged. So, if

56:04

an issue stands out to you,

56:07

find the local and state

56:09

groups and the organizations doing

56:11

something about it and get

56:14

involved. This can include political

56:16

organizations working to elect people

56:19

who will push back against

56:21

Trump's agenda. mutual aid organizations

56:23

that provide direct services to

56:26

vulnerable communities, or legal entities

56:28

working to challenge his unlawful

56:31

executive orders in court. And

56:33

as always, whatever you can do

56:35

to help your friends, your family,

56:37

or your neighbors, it can make

56:39

a world of difference. If you

56:41

know people being directly impacted,

56:44

reach out, check on them, and learn

56:46

more about how you can support them.

56:50

Now we're going to take a listener question.

56:52

This one is from Tanya and it's

56:54

in two parts. The first question is

56:57

what recommendations do you have for

56:59

civil service employees who want to

57:01

get involved without running afoul of

57:04

the Hatch Act? Thanks for those who

57:06

are not aware that Hatch

57:08

Act is a federal law

57:10

that prohibits any federal employee

57:12

from engaging in partisan political

57:14

activities. Try saying that three times

57:16

fast. They can't do it while they're

57:18

on duty. in a federal facility or

57:20

using federal property. However,

57:23

the First Amendment protects your

57:25

right to become involved

57:27

in civic activities and

57:29

to participate in partition

57:31

actions, but not at work,

57:33

during work hours, or using work

57:35

resources like your desk, your phone,

57:37

or even a pencil. The Office of

57:40

Special Counsel has a good guide on

57:42

how the Hatch Act actually operates. So

57:44

visit OSC.gov to get a copy.

57:47

The bottom line, though, is that

57:49

your rights as an American are

57:51

not eviscerated because you are a

57:53

federal employee. There are limits, and

57:55

your obligation is to respect

57:57

those limits while you're at work.

58:00

question was, what would be more

58:02

impactful or have the more expedient

58:04

impact, abolishing the Electoral College or

58:06

expanding the size of the House

58:09

of Representatives, which would lower the

58:11

ratio of constituents to Congress people?

58:13

I did my very first episode

58:15

of assembly required on the Electoral College.

58:17

I'm going to start there. The

58:19

abolition of the Electoral College would

58:21

address the issue of fair representation.

58:23

The current system, which was created

58:26

to mollify slave-holding states and count

58:28

the bodies but not the votes

58:30

of enslaved blacks, should be eliminated

58:32

because it distorts the will of

58:34

the people and it unfairly promotes

58:37

the interest of a handful of

58:39

states. Now, separate from that, there's

58:41

the issue of expansion of Congress.

58:43

So we can fix or at least

58:45

start to address challenges in the executive

58:48

branch, but we also have to look

58:50

at the challenges in the legislative

58:52

branch. The expansion of Congress,

58:54

which I would argue should include

58:56

not only increasing the number of

58:59

representatives in the House, but

59:01

also granting DC statehood and

59:03

investigating statehood for American territories,

59:05

that combination would serve the

59:07

purpose of expanding fair representation

59:10

in our legislative bodies, and it's

59:12

about time. And so while this is

59:14

not in your question, I'm adding a

59:16

third part, which is about the judicial

59:18

branch, because we need to think about

59:20

all three branches of government if we

59:22

want our democracy to work right. So

59:25

let's do judicial. We should also right-size

59:27

the federal judiciary. That means expanding

59:29

the number of judges on our

59:31

district courts, our courts of appeal,

59:34

and yes, the number of members

59:36

of the Supreme Court. These numbers

59:38

have changed throughout our history. So

59:40

this notion that we're stuck with

59:42

what we've got is simply not

59:45

true. And in reaction to population

59:47

changes, we have expanded the number

59:49

of judges because justice should

59:51

be swift. And we are overdue to

59:53

recalibrate for the size of the

59:56

country we have in the expanded

59:58

needs of people for each. equal

1:00:00

justice done in a timely

1:00:02

fashion. I'd love to hear

1:00:04

from the rest of you.

1:00:06

I'd love to hear examples

1:00:08

of ways you've taken action.

1:00:10

Pepper me with questions about

1:00:12

what you're concerned about or

1:00:14

ask me about topics you'd

1:00:16

like to see us talk

1:00:19

about here on Assembly Required.

1:00:21

Send us an email at

1:00:23

Assembly Required at crooked. Or

1:00:25

leave us a voicemail. And

1:00:27

you and your questions and

1:00:29

comments might be featured on

1:00:31

the pod. Our number is

1:00:33

2-1-3-2-9-3-9-509. That's it for Assembly

1:00:35

Required. Thanks for joining. Assembly

1:00:37

Required with Stacey Abrams is

1:00:39

a crooked media production. Our

1:00:41

lead show producer is Alona

1:00:43

Minkovsky, and our associate producer

1:00:45

is Paulina Velasco. Kiro Polyvieve

1:00:47

is our video producer. This

1:00:49

episode was recorded and mixed

1:00:52

by Charlotte Landis. Our theme

1:00:54

song is by Vasilis Wetopolis.

1:00:56

Thank you to Matt DeGrote,

1:00:58

Kyle Seglen, Tyler Boozer, and

1:01:00

Samantha Slosberg for production support.

1:01:02

Our executive producers are Katie

1:01:04

Long, Madeline Herringer, and me,

1:01:06

Stacey Abrams. Our production staff

1:01:08

is proudly unionized with the

1:01:10

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