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Sales Navigator now with a free 60-day at linkedin.com/

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trial. Welcome

0:39

to Assembly Required with Abrams from from

0:41

I'm your host, Stacey Abrams. Abrams.

0:43

Welcome back to our show. I

0:45

hope everyone had a good

0:47

holiday season. season, But now it's

0:49

time to get back to work work

0:51

we are mere weeks away

0:53

from Trump's inauguration. My niece niece

0:55

who many of you know helped me

0:57

launch Assembly Required, was home from her first

0:59

semester in college. We spent

1:01

more time catching up on

1:03

catching and and Both are really

1:06

good shows. good shows, than politics. But

1:08

she did share how she was

1:10

adjusting after the election. election. Namely,

1:12

we talked about how to process what she

1:15

was hearing. was about the appointments,

1:17

about deportations. about

1:19

what the real reach of the

1:21

real is. the presidency is.

1:23

They both have about four years,

1:25

faith and faith and The question is

1:28

what will he do with his how

1:30

will it his, and how will it for

1:32

all of us. all of us, the of

1:34

the unknown is not just

1:36

terrifying. It's paralyzing.

1:38

And it's and it's enraging

1:40

that someone else might determine

1:43

our destiny. But like I told I

1:45

told has some has some power. one

1:47

has no one has all of the

1:49

power. to pool what job is to and

1:51

what we've got. make see what

1:53

we can make happen. the places of the

1:55

places where the unknown meets shared power

1:57

is how we can prepare for what

1:59

will happen. on the environment. It's far

2:01

from the only area where

2:03

the outgoing and incoming presidents

2:05

have distinctly opposite visions, but

2:07

it is definitely one of

2:09

the most consequential. Just as

2:11

a quick reminder, in his

2:13

first term, Trump pulled us

2:16

out of the Paris Climate

2:18

Accords, he rolled back over

2:20

100 environmental regulations domestically, he

2:22

has also consistently called climate

2:24

change a hoax. President Biden

2:26

passed the largest piece of

2:28

climate legislation in history through

2:30

the Inflation Reduction Act, or

2:32

IRA, which invested nearly $400

2:34

billion into reducing emissions, shoring

2:36

up clean energy, and creating

2:38

jobs. Just this week, President

2:40

Biden took further action to

2:42

protect both the East and

2:44

the West Coast from offshore

2:46

drilling. With this announcement, President

2:48

Biden has now conserved over

2:50

670 million acres of America's

2:52

lands and waters. Basically, every

2:54

Biden climate policy is already

2:56

a target for Trump's second

2:58

term. Like that offshore drilling

3:00

ban Biden just announced this

3:02

Monday, Trump has already told

3:04

Hugh Hewitt on his radio

3:06

show that he'll change it

3:08

on day one. I see

3:10

it just came over that

3:12

Biden has banned all oil

3:14

and gas drilling across... 625

3:16

million acres of US coastal

3:19

territory. It's ridiculous. I'll unbate

3:21

it immediately. I will unbate

3:23

it. I have the right

3:25

to unbate it immediately. What's

3:27

he doing? Why is he

3:29

doing it? To clarify, President

3:31

Biden did issue two presidential

3:33

memoranda to protect vast areas

3:35

from offshore oil leasing and

3:37

drilling. But for those wondering,

3:39

a presidential memorandum is a

3:41

lot harder to rescind than

3:43

an executive order. And undoing

3:45

these on day one is

3:47

not exactly realistic. It will

3:49

take an act of Congress.

3:51

I point this out because

3:53

progress is in the details.

3:55

As our regular listeners know,

3:57

the thing we've been doing

3:59

in preparation for Trump's... second

4:01

term, is looking at Project

4:03

2025 and its policy suggestions

4:05

as both chilling and glaring

4:07

insight into what's coming and

4:09

how we can fight back.

4:11

You see, Project 2025 demonizes

4:13

the Biden administration's climate policies

4:15

and falsely minimizes the very

4:17

complex impact of carbon emissions

4:19

on everything from air quality

4:21

to climate change. In addition

4:24

to misleading the public, the

4:26

document contains tons of recommendations

4:28

to roll back environmental protections

4:30

and gut the very agencies

4:32

tasked with keeping our air

4:34

and water clean and our

4:36

communities safe. But there are

4:38

glimmers of hope. For example,

4:40

a recent victory in deep

4:42

red Montana, where the state

4:44

Supreme Court ruled six to

4:46

one, that Montana was violating

4:48

the residents' constitutional right to

4:50

a clean environment by permitting

4:52

oil, gas, and coal projects

4:54

without regard for global warming.

4:56

We might be tempted to

4:58

assume Trump is going to

5:00

win, but we'd be wrong.

5:02

Our job is to understand

5:04

what's threatened versus what's really

5:06

possible, and then do something

5:08

about it. Here to help

5:10

us understand the most significant

5:12

threats and opportunities is journalist

5:14

teak root. He's a senior

5:16

staff writer at Grist, a

5:18

non-profit independent media organization dedicated

5:20

to reporting on climate solutions

5:22

and a just feature. Teek

5:24

has been following the Trump

5:26

campaign and Project 2025s climate

5:29

priorities. He's written stories from

5:31

all over the world and

5:33

we're lucky that he's able

5:35

to join us here today

5:37

on Assembly required. assembly required.

5:39

Thanks for having me. It's

5:41

great to be here. So

5:43

I want to start with

5:45

a big picture question. For

5:47

those of us who watched

5:49

Captain Planet, we understand that

5:51

Donald Trump is no Dr.

5:53

Blight, but... Can he

5:55

wipe out four

5:57

years of

5:59

Biden's pro -environmental

6:01

policies in a

6:03

single term? in

6:05

a I think he can

6:08

pause them pause them and them

6:10

back. back. It's a little

6:12

bit unclear exactly how bad

6:14

it'll be, but it's

6:16

not going to be good.

6:18

be good. Okay. So no, Dr. Blay. The way

6:20

I way I look at

6:22

it of depends on of depends on... next

6:24

in comes next in the next

6:26

administration after Trump. after You saw. You saw...

6:29

Trump roll back a a bunch of environmental

6:31

regulations, then you saw Biden put them

6:33

back in, saw and with a lot

6:35

of these things, they with a lot of you

6:37

know, years to really have major

6:39

effects on, say, say, appliances appliances appliances or

6:41

actual machines that are getting put

6:43

out in the world. out in So So...

6:45

this tug pull and you know, pull

6:47

and tug and pull between administrations, the

6:49

I think at the very least,

6:52

we're looking at delayed climate action,

6:54

which I think is going to

6:56

be the the biggest

6:58

impact, right? We're headed well past one

7:00

degree Celsius of warming of

7:02

.5, probably towards two degrees

7:04

Celsius of warming. We

7:06

don't have the time don't

7:08

have waste another four years

7:11

of years of delays. So So

7:13

thinking about what Biden has put

7:15

in place put how much power

7:17

Trump has. power to stall

7:19

it out. which of the of

7:21

the component pieces. the

7:24

had the greatest potential impact

7:26

in and could be stalled out.

7:28

out? I I think rollback of the of

7:30

the IRA is going to be

7:33

a massive one. I think stalling

7:35

that will actually have more of

7:37

an impact than some of the

7:39

other things that you be done. to

7:41

But you are going to see

7:43

Trump has vowed to stop leasing

7:46

new land for offshore wind. I

7:48

think that'll be and he's And he's

7:50

going to start leasing land for

7:52

drilling and gas exploration. So I I

7:54

think you're going to start to

7:56

see this. to see this. shift

7:59

away. from an energy

8:01

transition. It'll be pieces here and

8:03

pieces there, but it's sort of

8:05

gonna be a lifeline for fossil

8:08

fuels and sort of extend its

8:10

life. And I think what, where

8:12

you'll see the longest impacts is

8:15

if it encourages new infrastructure, that's

8:17

gonna last 30, 50, 100 years,

8:20

and then you've baked in natural

8:22

gas pipeline or whatever it might

8:24

be like a natural gas line

8:27

to your house. that will be

8:29

there for generations in a way

8:31

that can't be undone. So I

8:34

think it'll be sort of the

8:36

sum of its parts, but it

8:38

all encourages fossil fuel consumption and

8:41

infrastructure build out in a way

8:43

that I think over the long

8:45

term will have climate impacts. So

8:48

let's stick with the IRA for

8:50

a moment. I mean, despite the

8:52

name, Inflation Reduction Act, it was,

8:55

I think, the most significant piece

8:57

that to your point will have

8:59

the longest shelf life, was about

9:02

how it changes our engagement with

9:04

fossil fuels and with clean energy.

9:07

Can you talk a little bit

9:09

about some of the component pieces

9:11

that were there? And as a

9:14

part of that, what could Trump

9:16

stop? What could he roll back?

9:18

And what are things that are

9:21

just moving too fast? for him

9:23

to in his administration to have

9:25

real impact. Yeah, so I think

9:28

there are some things that consumers

9:30

or most Americans will see the

9:32

most. One is that EV electric

9:35

vehicle tax credit. So that is

9:37

$7,500 on many. new electric vehicles.

9:39

You get a tax credit towards

9:42

buying that home electrification and home

9:44

energy efficiency, everything from weatherization to

9:46

getting $800 to put in an

9:49

induction stove in your home. So

9:51

those are some of the consumer

9:54

side ones and impacts that I

9:56

think people will see a lot

9:58

of. But then there are larger

10:01

ones, like encouraging utility scale, solar

10:03

and wind, and training workforces of

10:05

contractors to be sort of literate

10:08

in this world. So the range

10:10

is huge. And of course, there

10:12

are some controversial things like, you

10:15

know, the support of hydrogen, which

10:17

is often fossil fuel based. So

10:19

we'll see exactly what Trump is

10:22

able to roll back on his

10:24

own, and it's mostly going to

10:26

require congressional action or support. And

10:29

he has such narrow majority in

10:31

the House, we'll see what's possible,

10:33

but tax credits, for example, all

10:36

tax credits. will have to be

10:38

either repealed or changed by Congress.

10:41

Trump cannot do that on his

10:43

own. But what he can do

10:45

is slow a lot of the

10:48

spigot of money that's coming out.

10:50

So for example, the IRA had

10:52

$9 billion to go towards state

10:55

programs for home electrification and energy

10:57

efficiency. Only about $3 billion of

10:59

that has actually been awarded. And

11:02

so it's an open question how...

11:04

I think it's through the DOE,

11:06

so how the next DOE administration

11:09

handles that $6 billion of remaining

11:11

money. I mean, by statute, I

11:13

think they're required to use it,

11:16

but I think it can be

11:18

really slowed or it can be

11:21

reprogrammed or the awards can just

11:23

not go through. Like I think

11:25

there's a lot of ways where

11:28

you know, the money, the tap

11:30

can just be slowed down and

11:32

just gummed up. And the administration

11:35

has become smarter. So if you

11:37

look at Trump's first term, they

11:39

made a lot of sort of

11:42

legal blunders in the beginning when

11:44

they were trying to roll back

11:46

rules because they were new to

11:49

sort of government bureaucracy and government

11:51

rulemaking, etc. They made missteps that

11:53

they aren't going to make this

11:56

time. And so I so

11:58

will be as think

12:00

they will be they

12:03

possibly as they possibly can

12:05

in getting some of their agenda

12:07

passed. let's Well, let's stick with this

12:09

for one more second. more talk about the

12:11

state dollars that are going out through the

12:13

IRA. that A lot of those states have.

12:15

lot of those states have so.

12:18

senators. are states where if

12:20

the money the dry up and a

12:22

neighbor. and a neighbor has it in another

12:24

state of a cousin. a cousin. can say,

12:27

I just got this money, but

12:29

why can't we have it in our

12:31

our state? Do you you think that will

12:33

have impact on on how senators are

12:35

thinking about? how they would

12:37

vote on these repeals. vote on these repeals?

12:39

so there's been been... two to three

12:41

hundred billion dollars from the the IRA

12:43

sort of allocated already already and 70

12:45

to 80% of eighty percent of that

12:47

has gone to Republican congressional

12:49

districts and you've seen, I I think

12:51

it was eighteen Republican members

12:54

of of Congress right House Johnson to say hey

12:56

like these are know there's you know

12:58

there's some things here that we definitely

13:00

want to save. to save And so he's you know

13:02

know Johnson has said that he wants to

13:04

take a a approach rather than a sledgehammer

13:06

approach to the IRA. to the Trump has said

13:08

he wants to take a sledgehammer approach

13:10

to the IRA. So the think

13:12

you're going to see this you're going to

13:14

see this between the House

13:16

and Trump the the Senate Trump

13:18

to a certain extent

13:20

for how a certain extent for

13:23

how of this actually gets

13:25

done. gets done. When climate scientists are

13:27

thinking about what's happening in a second

13:29

term, and I know you mentioned and I know

13:31

you mentioned, you know, two can you talk a

13:33

bit about what that means in terms of

13:35

the in targets that we

13:37

set for 2030. targets that we set for

13:40

2030, and climate scientists think

13:42

scientists think make any progress during

13:44

the next four years. the next four

13:46

years? Well, we're already on track

13:48

to sort of of targets. targets.

13:50

So isn't going to help. to help.

13:52

And if you look back at

13:54

Trump's first term, there was

13:57

a decrease in emissions. in

13:59

emissions. And I was reading

14:01

a little bit about this recently,

14:03

and there were two reasons behind

14:06

that. One was the global pandemic,

14:08

right? Like, you know, the economies

14:10

and everybody's use of everything fell

14:12

off a cliff, which was a

14:15

temporary decrease in emissions for the

14:17

country. Another big one is that

14:19

electricity demand. remained low during Trump's

14:22

first term, which allowed the sort

14:24

of natural retirement of sort of

14:26

coal and some of the power,

14:29

like fossil fuel used to power

14:31

power plants. Electricity demand is growing

14:33

and there hopefully won't be another

14:35

global pandemic. So emissions during Trump's

14:38

second term seem very likely to

14:40

not decrease, if not go up.

14:42

So we're going to get further

14:45

away from global and domestic emissions

14:47

targets. And if we miss them,

14:49

we're going to keep seeing the

14:52

sort of natural disasters we've already

14:54

been seeking in the US, right?

14:56

Milton was a billion dollar storm.

14:58

The number of billion dollar storms,

15:01

or the average time between billion

15:03

dollar storms, have gone from about

15:05

four months to a matter of

15:08

weeks. And so we're just going

15:10

to keep like Vermont, which is

15:12

often on every list of climate

15:15

havens, right, where I am, has

15:17

seen. 100 year floods for the

15:19

last few years. So these are

15:21

the kind of impacts that you're

15:24

going to start to see more

15:26

of as the sort of needle

15:28

rises. Offshore drilling has been a

15:31

tug of war for the last,

15:33

I would say, 20 years. And

15:35

each administration comes in trying to

15:38

undo what the last administration did.

15:40

On Monday of this week, I

15:42

talked at the top of the

15:44

program that Joe Biden actually issued

15:47

a presidential memoranda using a provision

15:49

of statute versus an executive order,

15:51

essentially taking a lot of land

15:54

and a lot of capacity for

15:56

offshore oil drilling off of the

15:58

table. And that to use a

16:01

statute versus using an executive order

16:03

has some real meaning when it

16:05

comes to environmental regulations. Can you

16:07

talk a little bit about what

16:10

Biden did and why it matters?

16:12

Yeah, I mean, he took the

16:14

entire Eastern seaboard off offline for

16:17

oil drilling. He took parts of

16:19

the Pacific Northwest chunks of the...

16:21

Gulf of Mexico. I think it's

16:24

pretty major. I haven't, it's so

16:26

new that I haven't delved too

16:28

far into the statute versus executive

16:30

order. I do know that I

16:33

got an alert recently that Trump

16:35

is obviously trying to already, you

16:37

know, reverse the ban, ban the

16:40

ban, if you will. And so

16:42

I think you'll see him try

16:44

to do that. But my guess

16:47

is it's going to the courts.

16:49

And this is going to be

16:51

a common theme. I think you're

16:53

going to see a lot. of

16:56

climate rulemaking, a lot of climate

16:58

legislation, a lot of climate, everything

17:00

end up in the courts over

17:03

the next few years, which in

17:05

a lot of ways is I

17:07

think what what conservatives want, right?

17:10

Because if it ends up in

17:12

the courts, it at least delays

17:14

a lot of this stuff, if

17:16

not plays to their favor with

17:19

a Supreme Court that is excused

17:21

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anyone out there?

18:48

Another salesperson enduring the enduring the

18:50

endless Exhausting. If you want to you

18:53

want to get right

18:55

to the right conversations You

18:57

need need LinkedIn Sales you're looking

18:59

for new leads or looking

19:01

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trial. Terms and Condition

19:18

Supply! Two of of the

19:20

people that he's appointed that would be

19:22

overseeing these agencies, you've got agencies. You've

19:24

got Lee Trump's pick to lead the EPA. picked

19:26

to And you've got Chris Wright, who's his

19:28

energy secretary. Wright, What can

19:30

you tell us secretary. What can you tell

19:32

us about about Chris Wright,

19:35

and how concerned we should

19:37

be about the roles that

19:39

they will play the these regulatory

19:42

agencies. these regulatory mean, Chris Wright

19:44

mean, Chris Wright. is or was was the

19:46

head of the world's largest fracking company,

19:48

right? Like he has been a

19:50

climate skeptic, if not outright denier. if not

19:52

So I think with the I you're

19:54

gonna see. going to see, you

19:56

know, them working Interior to

19:58

sort of encourage oil. and gas

20:00

development, encourage drilling and doing sort

20:02

of whatever they can to sort

20:05

of extend the lifeline of fossil

20:07

fuels, which to your point earlier,

20:09

like there are some market forces

20:12

that are naturally happening and I

20:14

think you'll see the DOE start

20:16

to push back against any sort

20:18

of natural electrification, dream transition rules,

20:21

and sort of momentum in any

20:23

way that they can. I mean,

20:25

you start, like everything, like the

20:27

DOE controls such a huge swath,

20:30

right? They're the ones that control

20:32

how efficient your dishwasher is. They

20:34

make energy star standards. So the

20:36

impact can be. it like extremely

20:39

wide. And I think it sometimes

20:41

puts, not to focus on appliances,

20:43

but I found like that's something

20:45

that impacts people's lives a lot.

20:48

And so the Biden administration strengthened

20:50

appliance standards, but a lot of

20:52

those don't come into effect until

20:54

2026, 2028. And so. those will

20:57

get rolled back and then it

20:59

puts these manufacturers in this place

21:01

where do they, you know, how

21:04

efficient our appliances and sort of

21:06

you sort of end up with

21:08

a lot of the status quo

21:10

a lot of the time. So

21:13

I think you're going to see

21:15

an impact there. And then, you

21:17

know, Lee's Eldon is the head

21:19

of the APA. He said the

21:22

IRA sucks, right? And so I

21:24

think a lot of the Justice

21:26

40 initiatives, the Environmental Justice Initiatives,

21:28

that the EPA was part of,

21:31

I think you're probably going to

21:33

see a lot of that dry

21:35

up. And, you know, Project 2025

21:37

has called for an EPA, like

21:40

slashing its budget and slashing its

21:42

authority. So I think he's going

21:44

to be one of those rare

21:47

federal agency heads that actually allows

21:49

the curtailing of his own agency.

21:51

And I think you saw this

21:53

a bit during the first administration

21:56

where the EPA shifted from enforcement

21:58

to sort of letting companies self-police.

22:00

And I think you'll see a

22:02

good chunk of that under Zaldin

22:05

as well. And then some of

22:07

my colleagues have written about this,

22:09

but there's like sort of smaller,

22:11

sneakier stuff that will probably get

22:14

undone too. For example, the EPA

22:16

has looked into or called for

22:18

in the midst of implementing air

22:20

monitoring around sort of oil refineries

22:23

and oil infrastructure, and you'll probably

22:25

see efforts like that paused or

22:27

rolled back. And so... I think

22:29

you're going to see a lot

22:32

of these little impacts on regulation

22:34

that will just creep up everywhere.

22:36

And I know that during the

22:39

first term, Trump had issued, I

22:41

think it was an executive order

22:43

that called for two regulatory rollbacks

22:45

for every new regulation put in

22:48

place, and I think he's vowed

22:50

to up that to a

22:52

10 to one issue. Given

22:54

that Lee Zelden has this

22:56

animus towards clean air, clean

22:58

water, keeping communities free of

23:00

chemicals and pesticides, and that

23:02

this is project 2025s, you

23:04

know, one of their main

23:06

core imperatives. How would you

23:08

tell the average person, especially

23:10

someone living in a red

23:12

state, to think about what

23:14

role and response they could

23:16

have if they are watching

23:19

their leaders side with those

23:21

who are trying to make

23:23

their lives harder? What would

23:25

you say they should be

23:27

thinking about? Well, so that's

23:29

the interesting thing, right? So

23:31

Lee Sheldon or Trump will

23:33

won't say they're against clean

23:35

water or clean air, right?

23:37

Trump has called themselves the

23:39

most, have the cleanest water

23:41

and the cleanest air under

23:43

his presidency. And so I

23:45

think what they are is

23:47

their anti-regulation. They're anti-things that

23:49

make it. harder for companies

23:51

to make money, such as

23:53

scrubbers on power plants, right,

23:55

that reduce emissions and pollutions

23:57

in areas. So I think

24:00

It's going to be sold as

24:02

sort of pro -business, anti -regulatory,

24:05

this will help your economy, but it's

24:07

been proven over and over again

24:09

that when those roadblocks and those those

24:11

are taken away, you end up with

24:13

less clean air and less clean

24:15

water. water. And And so I think it's

24:17

going to be to be... you know, I

24:19

know, I think there's been movements

24:21

in the the first of Trump towards

24:24

sort of like citizen science of

24:26

like science and like quality in the

24:28

private sector nonprofit sector monitoring water

24:30

quality in the nonprofit sector. in

24:32

the nonprofit think So I think I think

24:34

of efforts are gonna become more

24:36

and more important. more and more important. just

24:38

urge people to realize that the

24:40

to realize that the are almost are almost

24:43

certainly going to be less clean

24:45

water and less clean air less clean air and

24:47

of look at ways that they can

24:49

monitor that in their own house. their own

24:51

house. it sort of happened of me

24:53

accidentally, the last like year or

24:55

two, a we've been trying to decarbonize

24:57

our home. We had a

24:59

gas stove We had a gas stove and year

25:01

my wife was pregnant and we were about

25:04

to have our first kid first kid

25:06

and The the summer before that

25:08

got a bunch of a bunch of

25:10

wildfire smoke think it was think

25:12

it was Canada at the time And

25:14

so it and so it was one

25:16

of these first times to talk about

25:18

climate impacts climate first time Vermont had

25:21

really bad wildfire smoke. really bad bought

25:23

an indoor air purifier air purifier light would

25:25

go from green to red red there

25:27

was some sort of sort of. you know,

25:29

disturbance or pollutant in the atmosphere.

25:31

the atmosphere. So the fall, after

25:33

the wildfire the passed and we

25:35

were back to sort of normal, back to we

25:37

kept using this we we noticed that every

25:40

time we turned on our gas stove, every time

25:42

we the air purifier would kick

25:44

up and turn sort of and

25:46

or red of that to us

25:48

was the impetus for going

25:50

to an induction stove. stove.

25:52

You know, gas was obviously part of it,

25:54

but these sort of sort of

25:56

environmental... in our

25:58

house, daily impact. are really

26:00

sort of, have been driving some

26:02

of our decision making. And so

26:05

stuff like that, you can start

26:07

to potentially, if you live near

26:09

an oil facility, maybe try to

26:11

get your own air monitor or

26:13

look into state or local or

26:15

non-profit programs that would help fund

26:18

an air monitor in your community.

26:20

And then, you know, you don't

26:22

have to listen to whether it

26:24

be a Republican or Democrat, tell

26:26

you how clean your air water

26:28

is. You can take a look

26:31

for yourself. I want to talk

26:33

about that for a second because

26:35

I think what you just offered

26:37

are two very important activation steps.

26:39

Like you said, we at this

26:41

moment have to become our own

26:44

monitors, our own hall monitors. And

26:46

we live in a moment where

26:48

there's technology available, but there's also

26:50

a communication channel, multiple ones called

26:52

social media, where you can start

26:54

to let people know what you're

26:57

learning and we can crowdsource. our

26:59

own security. And I think the

27:01

other piece that you laid out

27:03

earlier is understanding that being anti-regulatory

27:05

actually has meaning. And I think

27:07

one of this, one of these

27:10

opportunities is to think about the

27:12

language that we're using when we're

27:14

having these conversations. And I really

27:16

appreciate the fact that you talk

27:18

about who is being road blocked

27:20

by regulation, but what's on the

27:23

other side of the roadblock? who

27:25

was on the other side. And

27:27

so I think there's an opportunity

27:29

for listeners to think about when

27:31

you hear about a regulatory change

27:33

instead of just presuming that there's

27:36

something that was inherently wrong with

27:38

the regulation in the first place,

27:40

ask questions. Why was that regulation

27:42

in place? Can you talk a

27:44

little bit for the average person

27:46

who hasn't gone through a regulatory

27:49

process? What are some of the

27:51

key things for them to be

27:53

listening for or looking to when...

27:55

regulations are being changed and how

27:57

citizens can engage. Yeah, just stepping

27:59

back one second on your sort

28:02

of citizen action thing. The other

28:04

the other big I will make

28:06

is for journalism, right? And I

28:08

think a lot of, a lot

28:10

of outlets have started to do

28:12

more sort of community focused journalism

28:15

and both journalists and also nonprofits.

28:17

often build in the digital age,

28:19

it's gotten way easier to build

28:21

these tools where you can type

28:23

in your zip code and see

28:25

what's happening where you are. So

28:28

I'm thinking of the pro public

28:30

who did a formaldehyde investigation recently,

28:32

where you can type in your

28:34

zip code and see what the

28:36

formaldehyde risk might be in your

28:38

neighborhood. And Re wiring America has

28:41

a tool where you can type

28:43

in your zip code and see

28:45

what sort of electrification and energy

28:47

efficient rebates are available to you.

28:49

So just wanted to make a

28:52

plug for those tools, which I

28:54

found really useful. Plug away. And

28:56

on the regulatory side, the federal

28:58

registry is where a lot of

29:00

new rules or new proposed rules

29:02

get placed and then there's public

29:05

comment periods. And that is a

29:07

place where if there are issues

29:09

that you are concerned about, I

29:11

will just start typing in things

29:13

you're concerned about and you can

29:15

start to see what's happening there.

29:18

You know, it can be a

29:20

multiple, you know, many page rulemaking

29:22

document, but the public comments I

29:24

found actually distill a lot of

29:26

the arguments in the part. the

29:28

controversial parts you probably care about

29:31

really well. I've also found that

29:33

if you have local politicians, whichever

29:35

way you lean left or right

29:37

or wherever, they often have constituent

29:39

email lists, and so I found

29:41

that getting on those can be

29:44

sometimes helpful to sort of figuring

29:46

out what might be coming down

29:48

the pipeline or if there's a

29:50

local nonprofit you like, that follows

29:52

housing, right? They might... Send out

29:54

something to their email list about

29:57

hey, here's a new state or

29:59

federal rule that you need to

30:01

care about Or should look at

30:03

at least and they've usually do

30:05

a pretty good job at flagging

30:07

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Auto trader. I want to talk

32:46

about someone who's want to talk about

32:48

someone who's made getting good information harder

32:50

in recent years, and that's Elon Musk. Musk.

32:53

This is someone who made his

32:55

name by leveraging federal funds

32:57

to actually bolster his business interest

32:59

in electric vehicles, and

33:01

now he's working. for a climate denier

33:03

who wants to reverse. for a climate

33:06

the intention. who wants to reverse

33:08

the do you square how

33:10

do you Elon Musk Musk was and

33:12

he is I I don't want you

33:14

to get into the psychology into the would

33:17

love your thinking about how

33:19

thinking the intersection of

33:21

Musk and Tesla. Tesla and

33:23

his business interest

33:25

with with Doge. and also how they

33:28

will take on they will take

33:30

on fossil fuels. in

33:32

this new administration to consumers for

33:34

cost to consumers for

33:36

supporting the fossil fuel industry.

33:38

it boils down to I

33:40

think it boils down to self

33:43

-interest or sort of business you

33:45

as you mentioned. in Tesla's in Tesla's

33:47

existence, of the federal subsidies, I I

33:49

think it in the in the

33:51

hundreds of millions of dollars for

33:53

some of the the stuff. then, and

33:55

know. you know... probably more than

33:57

that in of of tax credits for for there.

34:00

Tesla's earlier on, because for those

34:02

who may not have fallen closely,

34:04

Tesla hit sort of production cap

34:06

limits, and so was ineligible for

34:08

a while for some of these

34:11

EV tax credits. So early on,

34:13

those were very important to Tesla,

34:15

but now Tesla isn't as reliant

34:17

on federal tax credits as other

34:19

companies, like G.E. or Stelantis or

34:22

those other American car companies. So

34:24

now. He's even said this, the

34:26

EV track charges will hurt those

34:28

companies way more than they'll hurt

34:30

Tesla. So I think that sort

34:33

of squares that circle for me

34:35

at least is he doesn't stand

34:37

to lose nearly as much from

34:39

getting rid of the EV tax

34:42

credits as other companies do. As

34:44

for whether they'll take on fossil

34:46

fuels, I actually wrote about this

34:48

the other day on a suggestion

34:50

for my editor. because this idea

34:53

that they want to cut two

34:55

trillion dollars or roughly a third

34:57

out of the federal budget, you're

34:59

going to need a pretty big

35:01

axe to do that. And there

35:04

are a lot of subsidies for

35:06

fossil fuels and you know in

35:08

the range of billions and then

35:10

you know even more for stuff

35:12

like ethanol based fuels or based

35:15

ethanol. So I think it'll be

35:17

a real one person I talked

35:19

to you called a truth test

35:21

or like a litmus test for

35:24

how committed they are to this

35:26

idea of just slashing government subsidies

35:28

and support writ large, but almost

35:30

no one I talked to expected

35:32

them to be to actually go

35:35

after fossil fuels, right? In theory,

35:37

it's possible, but we don't know

35:39

anything really about those yet, right?

35:41

We don't know whether it's going

35:43

to operate inside or outside the

35:46

government or where it's going to

35:48

sit or, you know, how is

35:50

how are Elon and... Ramaswani going

35:52

to go to-to-to-to with cabinet secretaries

35:54

like are they going to get

35:57

you know access to Trump. I

35:59

think there's so many questions, but

36:01

in theory, if they're slashing sort

36:03

of subsidies, there's a lot that

36:06

could be slashed that also apply

36:08

to fossil fuels. But by and

36:10

large, the expectation is that it's

36:12

going to hurt climate policy and

36:14

sort of the green transition as

36:17

they start to cut government supports.

36:19

You've been writing and thinking a

36:21

lot about market forces, and Elon

36:23

Musk and his new codery represent

36:25

a fairly significant part of that.

36:28

But how do you think about

36:30

how market forces will play into

36:32

addressing climate change in this administration?

36:34

And can you explain your thinking

36:37

and why you think this is

36:39

an angle that we need to

36:41

focus on? Two words that come

36:43

to the first two words that

36:45

come to my mind are he

36:48

pumps, or maybe it's one word,

36:50

but I think it's two, he

36:52

pumps. are I think a perfect

36:54

example of how market forces are

36:56

really playing out here. The industry

36:59

is now selling more electric heat

37:01

pumps than they are gas boilers

37:03

and this was even before this

37:05

trend started before the IRA. People

37:07

are realizing that they can heat

37:10

in the cooler homes at the

37:12

same time. Often, especially if you

37:14

don't leave an extreme climate for

37:16

less money with less breakdown. So

37:19

I think that is a prime

37:21

example of product and market that

37:23

has just gone somewhat independently of

37:25

government regulation and started to take

37:27

over. I think you've seen the

37:30

costs of renewable energies of solar

37:32

and wind, especially utility scale, but

37:34

also somewhat at the household scale,

37:36

just plummet, and that has had

37:38

nothing to do, or not nothing,

37:41

but large, that's also been happening

37:43

independent of US domestic climate policy.

37:45

I think the one wrench that

37:47

Trump has threatened and almost certainly

37:49

will throw into market forces is

37:52

tariffs. This is just a big

37:54

lever that he has at his

37:56

disposal that he he said he

37:58

will already use. And I think

38:01

there was news the other day

38:03

that he's now considering more universal

38:05

tariffs rather than targeted tariffs, which

38:07

makes it harder to circumvent by

38:09

going and importing through a different

38:12

country. So I think that is

38:14

the biggest way in which Trump

38:16

can probably disrupt the market forces

38:18

behind a green transition. And also

38:20

I think there's some of this

38:23

rebate money could. change people's calculus

38:25

on whether a heat pump or

38:27

something makes sense, but often from

38:29

people I've talked to and even

38:31

myself, like they're on par regardless

38:34

of subsidies, and subsidies just help.

38:36

And I think you're going to

38:38

see both tariffs and the change

38:40

in rebates, who that's really going

38:43

to impact, it's lower income consumers,

38:45

and I, you know, last year

38:47

the IRS released data that there

38:49

were eight billion or so dollars

38:51

of tax credits claimed by people

38:54

like energy efficiency tax credits claimed

38:56

by people and the majority of

38:58

those fell or the bulk of

39:00

those fell in the hundred to

39:02

two hundred thousand dollar income range

39:05

so already you're seeing that the

39:07

green transition is is something that

39:09

you know you know upper middle

39:11

class is gravitating towards and I

39:14

think tariffs and rolling back rebates

39:16

will only accelerate that and make

39:18

it less accessible for a lower

39:20

income individuals. But I do think

39:22

a lot of this is headed

39:25

down a path anyway, right? Like

39:27

the federal government has no, has

39:29

very little say over whether somebody,

39:31

a business or your home decides

39:33

to install electric vehicle charter. And

39:36

like that sort of stuff will

39:38

continue to happen as people lead

39:40

them in businesses to decide that

39:42

they're worth the investment. So I'm

39:44

going to give you a really

39:47

simple easy low-stakes question to take

39:49

us out of here. One of

39:51

the side effects we know of

39:53

the climate change conversation is what's

39:56

described as climate despair. When it

39:58

all just feels too overwhelming and

40:00

too hopeless, we give in and

40:02

potentially give up. So here on

40:04

Assembly required, what we try to

40:07

provide are antidote to that despair.

40:09

We try to invite guest-on to

40:11

help us wrap our heads around

40:13

complicated topics like you have. and

40:15

who help us brainstorm on ways

40:18

to take action. And you have

40:20

given us a great deal of,

40:22

I think, incredibly useful information. But

40:24

when you are doing this work

40:26

day after day, when you are

40:29

trying to make certain that that

40:31

monitor in your home doesn't tell

40:33

you that the appliances in your

40:35

home are going to cause you

40:38

harm, when you're reporting and you're

40:40

writing about so many topics that

40:42

can be overwhelming. How do you

40:44

keep yourself from just giving up?

40:46

Yeah, I mean, that's a great

40:49

question. I, so I generally cover

40:51

climate change nationally and internationally. So

40:53

I found actually some, some solace

40:55

in sinking a lot of effort

40:57

into my own home. Like I

41:00

just spent hours and hours thinking

41:02

about how I could do this

41:04

in my own life and I

41:06

found it weirdly comforting, right? Like

41:08

I didn't have to. to think

41:11

about the emissions going over China

41:13

and Europe, I could just sort

41:15

of think about my house for

41:17

a little bit. And I find

41:20

that really enjoyable. And I really

41:22

liked, like, I don't know if

41:24

I'm just a nerd, but I

41:26

really like talking to my public

41:28

utility about like what programs they

41:31

had to help me reduce, you

41:33

know, energy. And like, there's so

41:35

many cool, like, there's this utility

41:37

in California that started to, just

41:39

offer people heat pumps instead of

41:42

replacing the natural gas pipeline, especially

41:44

in rural communities where they only

41:46

have like three houses at the

41:48

end. And those are programs that

41:51

if you just ask, you'll find

41:53

out about and you might actually

41:55

be eligible. There's just

41:57

so much out

41:59

there that I

42:02

didn't. know know about when I

42:04

started doing this. So I So I

42:06

found on the on the local and

42:08

even hyper -local level has really

42:10

been quite enjoyable. And a a lot

42:12

of the local journalism right now on

42:14

reporting is really fascinating. is really Georgia,

42:16

a lot of the work that

42:18

was done on the that was plant

42:20

that's opening there, I think is

42:22

something that I think is I think

42:24

people can stay engaged in and

42:26

it doesn't in and it doesn't necessarily

42:29

feel like, big climate policy

42:31

that you're engaging in, it's sort

42:33

of a local issue that could

42:35

affect your community, but your does

42:37

have those implications. implications. So would say I

42:40

would say just of think about about touch

42:42

in your daily life, like as

42:44

you walk around, walk it's whether it's your.

42:46

your your car fossil fuel that goes into fossil

42:48

fuel that goes into making the

42:50

rubber or the or your think there's just

42:52

so many touch think there's just so

42:54

many touch points and find out

42:56

what's important to you. heard so many people say

42:59

I've heard so many people say

43:01

that about to care about climate

43:03

change their kids kids started talking about

43:05

it it after about greenhouse gas emissions

43:07

in school in school or or talking to

43:09

their friends about it. For me,

43:11

sports is often like I think a lot

43:13

about like, down the road for me.

43:15

I have a a semi-pro team where

43:17

climate justice is their mission, right?

43:19

So right? So, like, I often find find weird

43:22

ways into it. Electrifying muscle cars

43:24

I heard someone got into as

43:26

a got as a touch way for

43:28

this. as a touch So, point for you know,

43:30

almost anything anything do it. I'll

43:32

take do it. Thank you so much

43:34

for being on for being on Thanks so

43:36

much for having me. This was great. great. Each

43:45

week we want to leave the audience

43:47

with a new way to act against what

43:49

can feel inevitable. an an opportunity

43:51

to make a difference, a way to get

43:53

involved. or just get on working

43:56

out a solution. out a solution. call

43:58

this segment segment our toolkit. At Assembly

44:00

required, we encourage the audience to

44:02

be curious, solve problems, and do

44:04

good. So let's start with being

44:06

curious. Read more of Teek and

44:08

his colleagues' excellent climate change reporting

44:10

on grist.org. You can also find

44:13

valuable information on Inside Climate news.org,

44:15

which produces nonpartisan environmental journalism. And

44:17

as we talked about, you can

44:19

take matters into your own hands.

44:21

Get a monitor. Sign up for

44:23

a newsletter. Do the work of

44:25

telling your community what you know

44:27

and what you're learning. Don't wait

44:29

for the government to do its

44:31

job when you can help move

44:33

it along. Now, in addition to

44:35

what Teek and I discussed, we

44:37

know that for solving problems and

44:40

doing good, it's not enough to

44:42

just want to do it. We

44:44

need to think about how we

44:46

get it done. And one of

44:48

the ways we're approaching that are

44:50

through our listener questions. Before the

44:52

holidays, I offered... Some recommendations for

44:54

our first two steps. One, identifying

44:56

an issue that matters to you

44:58

the most and being as local

45:00

as you can about how you

45:02

address it. Two, I encourage you

45:05

to figure out who is in

45:07

charge and who can make the

45:09

change you want to see, what

45:11

we refer to in organizing as

45:13

power mapping. For step three, I

45:15

want to turn to a question

45:17

from listener Tyler Zog. Tyler writes...

45:19

Stacey, I'm about to graduate with

45:21

a bachelor's in statistics in the

45:23

spring. I've also recently decided I

45:25

want my career to be something

45:27

that improves the world in some

45:29

way and doesn't just improve shareholder

45:32

value. I was hoping for a

45:34

Harris victory for many reasons, but

45:36

a big part is because I

45:38

was hoping to get a research

45:40

job in the EPA or CDC,

45:42

one of the many organizations Project

45:44

2025, seeks to remove. With a

45:46

Trump victory, is it worth seeking

45:48

a government-seeking-seeking government job? Do I

45:50

look at non-profits or other research-focused

45:52

organizations? Or are they at the

45:54

same risk with likely removal of

45:57

government funds? In short, how can

45:59

we help continue viable? research into

46:01

health, the environment, civil rights issues,

46:03

etc. when we face an administration

46:05

that seems to be outright hostile

46:07

to said research. I'd appreciate your

46:09

advice. Well, first of all, congratulations,

46:11

Tyler. And I want to use

46:13

your question because I want to

46:15

talk about step three in organizing,

46:17

in advocacy, and in just responding

46:19

to what's coming. Step three is

46:22

that once we know what we're

46:24

concerned about and we know who's

46:26

responsible, It's time to become our

46:28

own resident experts. This conversation today

46:30

with Teek was a great example

46:32

of the ways we can do

46:34

that. But it's not just enough

46:36

for us to do it on

46:38

our own in our homes and

46:40

our communities. This is where people

46:42

like Tyler come in, because we

46:44

need experts in the field and

46:46

in positions of power. So I'll

46:49

say this, Tyler. While it is

46:51

difficult to work for an administration

46:53

whose values don't align with yours,

46:55

we have to remember that the

46:57

government works for the people, not

46:59

the politicians. Most government jobs are

47:01

actually apolitical. I had a sister

47:03

who worked for the CDC for

47:05

years. And I can tell you

47:07

that no matter who she worked

47:09

for, the science didn't change. And

47:11

what that means is that you

47:14

don't have to excel at politics

47:16

to do your job. More importantly,

47:18

you have to focus on the

47:20

substance of your work. That's where

47:22

we need you, and that's what

47:24

you studied for. Now more than

47:26

ever. We need good people in

47:28

government jobs who are willing to

47:30

do the research the right way.

47:32

Yes, there will be constraints on

47:34

how you can do your work,

47:36

but the fundamentals remain. We need

47:38

folks like you to help folks

47:41

like us learn about the topics

47:43

and potential solutions. For those who

47:45

are trying to use this research,

47:47

I want you to identify who

47:49

studies what you care about or

47:51

who has written a paper or

47:53

blog on the topic. As Teak

47:55

described, look for newsletters that focus

47:57

on that area of interest and

47:59

give you a summary once a

48:01

week about what's going on. Even

48:03

better, reach out to them. The

48:06

worst case scenario is that the

48:08

person you reach out to ignores

48:10

you. And you move on. But

48:12

if not, if they do come

48:14

back, you now have a firsthand

48:16

resource to help deepen your understanding

48:18

of the topic. So I would

48:20

invite this resource to join you

48:22

in a Zoom meeting with your

48:24

group. This can be a very

48:26

effective way for an introvert, for

48:28

example, to convene people without having

48:31

to actually talk. So you do

48:33

the work of setting up the

48:35

learning opportunity. The learning opportunity. and

48:37

you let someone else do the

48:39

talking. We know that when we

48:41

learn more we are better equipped

48:43

to do more. And folks like

48:45

Tyler can help us make that

48:47

happen, but everyone listening to the

48:49

show has the ability to become

48:51

a resident expert on something that

48:53

matters to you. So to recap,

48:55

step one, know your target, step

48:58

two, know who's in charge, and

49:00

step three, know who knows more

49:02

than you, and learn from them.

49:04

No matter what our target is,

49:06

our target is. We need to

49:08

be prepared. So again, over the

49:10

next few episodes, we'll continue our

49:12

organizing and insistence training. Because once

49:14

we get started, we're going to

49:16

get a lot of good done.

49:18

If you want to tell us

49:20

what you've learned and solved, send

49:23

us an email at Assembly required

49:25

at crooked.com or leave us a

49:27

voicemail. Your questions and comments might

49:29

be featured on the pod. Our

49:31

number is 213, 293, 9500. Well,

49:33

that wraps up this episode of

49:35

Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams. I'll

49:37

meet you here next week. Assembly

49:39

Required with Stacey Abrams is a

49:41

crooked media production. Our lead show

49:43

producer is Alona Minkovsky, and our

49:45

associate producer is Paulina Velasco. Kiro

49:47

Polyvieve is our video producer. This

49:50

episode was recorded and mixed by

49:52

Evan Sutton. Our theme song is

49:54

by Vasilius Watopoulos. Thank you to

49:56

Matt DeGrote. Kyle Seglen, Tyler Boozer,

49:58

and Samantha Slosberg for production support.

50:00

Our are - Madeline Herringer

50:02

and me, Stacey

50:04

Abrams. producers

50:08

are

50:11

Katie

50:13

Long,

50:16

Madeline

50:19

Herringer,

50:21

and me,

50:24

What's your New Year's resolution? To

50:26

improve your relationships, find a better job.

50:30

We often make these commitments

50:32

without first exploring a deeper

50:34

question. first do I define a life

50:36

a deeper question. How do will

50:38

do just that with our well

50:40

lived? Hidden 2 .0. Start the new

50:42

year on a strong foot. Listen

50:45

and subscribe to Hidden Brain, 2.0.

50:47

wherever you get your year on

50:49

a strongfoot. Listen

50:52

and subscribe to Hidden

50:54

Brain Look around, you can

50:56

find cars like these on AutoTrader.

50:58

New cars, used cars, electric cars,

51:00

maybe even flying cars. cars. Okay, no flying cars,

51:02

no flying cars, but as soon

51:04

as they get invented, they'll be

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on AutoTrader. Just you wait. you

51:09

wait. Auto Trader.