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from Abrams from I'm your host,

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Stacey Abrams. Stacey On this

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0:47

complicated issues and untangle them

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about the things that they understand those things.

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those We are trying our best

1:01

to break through the analysis

1:03

paralysis that is. that is taking hold of

1:05

so many of us. of us. but we

1:07

also want to dispel the desperation that keeps

1:09

us inactive. keeps us often So

1:11

often so big big

1:13

so complicated, doing nothing.

1:16

nothing It seems like the smartest thing to do. thing

1:18

to do. Or we think it's too big for

1:20

us to solve alone. alone we wait

1:22

for someone to call us in. to call us

1:24

in. Well, Consider this your call. your

1:26

Because since November, we have

1:28

had a lot of conversation about

1:30

what is going to happen

1:32

next. we What can we expect

1:34

in a second Donald Trump administration?

1:37

with a the Republican -controlled Congress. Congress

1:39

a rubber stamping. Supreme Court. Court?

1:41

Listeners have written in to ask

1:43

us about everything from how to protect same -sex

1:46

marriage rights, to what will happen to their health

1:48

care, and on a more basic

1:50

level, more how to move forward in

1:52

what can feel like a feel like a shocking

1:54

and terrifying time for so many. And

1:57

among the among the responses we've

1:59

been getting, there's one that has come

2:01

up the most, and that's education.

2:03

In fact, here's one of the

2:05

calls we've gotten from our listeners.

2:07

This is from Kieran, from right

2:09

here in Georgia. My name is

2:11

Kieran Krishna Murdi. I live in

2:13

Savannah, Georgia. I don't have a

2:15

lot of money, but I try

2:17

to support your organization as much

2:20

as I can. Right now, I'm

2:22

trying to do local things, and

2:24

I wonder if you knew of

2:26

anything I could do with the

2:28

Department of education since The Trump

2:30

administration is talking about shutting it

2:32

down. If there's anything I can

2:34

do, I would really love to

2:36

be able to. Bye-bye. So what

2:38

Kieran is referring to, and thank

2:40

you, Karen, for calling in, she's

2:42

referring to a pledge from the

2:44

president-elect who has promised to shut

2:46

down the Department of Education. This

2:48

is the department which oversees everything

2:50

from special education to funding learning

2:52

for the poorest kids in our

2:54

country. He's also said he wants

2:57

to cut federal funding for schools,

2:59

especially those that teach critical race

3:01

theory, basically the study of how

3:03

racism has and does exist in

3:05

social systems and laws, and he

3:07

wants to roll back Title IX

3:09

protections, which are the laws that

3:11

prohibit discrimination based on gender. And

3:13

then there's Project 2025. The 900-page

3:15

conservative policy blueprint that was put

3:17

forth by the Heritage Foundation was

3:19

written by many Trump advisors and

3:21

by people he has already selected

3:23

to join his administration, which he

3:25

told us he didn't believe in

3:27

or know about, and it turns

3:29

out maybe he was lying. Project

3:32

2025 provides even more detail about

3:35

potential changes that Trump will try

3:37

to make to education. Here's how

3:39

MS NBC's Ali Velshi describes it.

3:41

Beyond privatizing schools and eliminating most

3:44

of the protections for disadvantaged students,

3:46

Project 2025 also seeks to take

3:48

take on the so-called woke agenda

3:51

in education. Woke is all through

3:53

this document, by the way, even

3:55

though regular people don't use that

3:57

expression. Heritage Foundation President Kevin Roberts

4:00

put so clearly in his forward,

4:02

quote, the noxious tenets of critical

4:04

race theory and gender ideology should

4:06

be excised from curricula in every

4:09

public school in the country, end

4:11

quote. So among the advocates for

4:13

dismantling public education as we know

4:16

it is U.S. Senator Mike Rounds.

4:18

He has already introduced legislation to

4:20

start dismantling the Department of Education

4:22

and redistribute key programs and funding

4:25

to other federal agencies. In fact,

4:27

these would be the agencies that

4:29

do not have a singular focus

4:32

or expertise on preserving public education,

4:34

because that's kind of the point.

4:36

The attack on public education is

4:38

not a drill. It is a

4:41

mission statement. And I take them

4:43

very seriously, and I take it

4:45

very personally. You see, public education

4:47

saved my family's life. My parents

4:50

grew up in Jim Crow, Mississippi,

4:52

denied access to the fullest measure

4:54

of public education, and yet what

4:57

they were able to claw out

4:59

and carve out changed our futures.

5:01

I grew up in the first

5:03

generation that took college for granted.

5:06

But too often a family's income

5:08

or zip code determines if their

5:10

child has a strong beginning or

5:12

receives an education that can power

5:15

a lifetime of opportunity. My parents

5:17

were the first in their families

5:19

to go to college and that

5:22

changed how we see ourselves and

5:24

how we've been able to engage.

5:26

College isn't for everyone, but education

5:28

belongs to all of us. I'm

5:31

in the first generation to not

5:33

attend segregated schools, but I'm also

5:35

in the first generation to believe

5:38

that we could lose access to

5:40

public education if we aren't vigilant.

5:42

My dad used to say they

5:44

can take your job, they can

5:47

take your house, but no one

5:49

can take what's in your mind.

5:51

And that is the promise we

5:53

make to children in America through

5:56

public education. The Department of Education

5:58

And that's why we're going to

6:00

break down how and why we

6:03

can defend it and what a

6:05

president can feasibly do to it

6:07

or not. Because here at Assembly

6:09

required, we do not panic. We

6:12

look carefully at an issue, we

6:14

dissect the most important things about

6:16

it, and we figure out entry

6:19

points for action. And to do

6:21

that, we call on experts. Today

6:23

I'm joined by two people who

6:25

are here to teach us what

6:28

we need to know. John Volant

6:30

is a senior fellow at the

6:32

Brookings Institution and director of the

6:34

Brown Center of Education Policy. He

6:37

specializes in K-12 education policy. And

6:39

Kate Nizimi, who is the co-founder

6:41

of a local organization in Central

6:44

Bucks, Pennsylvania. It's called Advocates for

6:46

Inclusive Education. She has two kids

6:48

in the local public school system

6:50

and organizes allies to support public

6:53

education, along with other parents, teachers,

6:55

and activists in her community. That

6:57

conversation, after the break. John

6:59

Vellant, Kate Nizimi, welcome to

7:02

Assembly Required. Thanks for having.

7:04

Thank you. It's an honor.

7:06

Well, thank you so much

7:08

for being here. I'm going

7:10

to start with you, Kate.

7:12

Conservative activists have been swept

7:15

into power. They are threatening

7:17

to ban and rewrite the

7:19

narratives. I don't

7:21

know if this sounds familiar to

7:24

you, but we are in the

7:26

moment where people are watching change

7:28

happen and you watched conservative activists

7:31

take over your school district, ban

7:33

books, rewrite curricula. How did you

7:36

fight back? And more importantly, did

7:38

it work? Sure,

7:40

thanks. Yeah, I've been thinking

7:43

a lot about what it

7:45

might look like here with

7:47

a return to some of

7:49

that really divisive rhetoric and

7:52

action. And so sure, I

7:54

mean, we were coming off

7:56

the heels of the pandemic

7:58

and we had a board

8:01

that had great contempt for

8:03

a lot of the guidance

8:05

around masking. And so our

8:08

community was really divided. And

8:10

I just share that to

8:12

kind of give you a

8:14

sense of like what it

8:17

was like before a new

8:19

board was seated. And we

8:21

started to see these restrictions

8:24

being rolled out against teachers

8:26

and what books kids could

8:28

read and what they were

8:30

being taught. And

8:33

so really the first thing I

8:35

did was quite simply attend a

8:37

school board meeting and listen really

8:39

carefully to what was being shared

8:42

and there was our library coordinator

8:44

who was sharing policy for library

8:46

collections and it was met with

8:49

again contempt and I knew right

8:51

then that there was going to

8:53

be an issue with with censorship

8:56

here in the district. And so

8:58

it was really a matter of

9:00

just talking to folks in the

9:03

community, asking them who they knew

9:05

at the like a national sort

9:07

of level in terms of like

9:10

attorneys and support. So I sent

9:12

the policies off to various organizations,

9:14

various legal organizations. which anybody could

9:17

do in any community. And I

9:19

just asked them simply to read

9:21

it and to tell us what

9:24

they see as potentially being problematic

9:26

for students in the district. And

9:28

so we just started that way

9:30

by gathering support from educators and

9:33

professionals, and then we'd share that

9:35

information out. to the community during

9:37

public comment. Well first I thought

9:40

that simply just having mention of

9:42

violating First Amendment rights of students

9:44

would be like enough for the

9:47

policies to put an end to

9:49

the policies. And I see you're

9:51

smiling, but like totally was naive.

9:54

I thought, oh for sure. Like

9:56

I remember getting so excited for

9:58

getting the letters and running into

10:01

the school board room, getting enough

10:03

time to like read these out

10:05

and they had already received them

10:08

and I thought this is it's

10:10

going to do it. Like they're

10:12

going to drop this policy, they're

10:15

going to follow the librarians. But

10:17

no, they just like bulldozed ahead.

10:19

So then we knew it was

10:21

more or less just sort of

10:24

how can we educate the public

10:26

about what's happening here in the

10:28

district? and throw sand in the

10:31

gears, like slow this down so

10:33

that the books remain on the

10:35

shelves, the teachers are able to

10:38

teach. And the way we did

10:40

that was we sort of formed

10:42

this organization. It's really just two

10:45

people, myself and a retired English

10:47

teacher, Catherine Semish. And we just

10:49

kind of threw everything we had,

10:52

every skill we had. like out

10:54

there. So we developed a blog

10:56

and a newsletter and we just

10:59

advertised that through word of mouth.

11:01

We asked people to sign up

11:03

so we kept people informed like

11:06

through writing and through our blog.

11:08

We organized people in like playgrounds,

11:10

community groups, to come and attend

11:12

the meetings, to really see, it

11:15

was really important for people to

11:17

see kind of like what was

11:19

happening. This was an important opening

11:22

because what I wanted people to

11:24

understand and I thought it was

11:26

so important for you to go

11:29

first, we are in this moment

11:31

where we can feel overwhelmed by

11:33

the sheer scope of what is

11:36

to come. And what you accomplished

11:38

in Central Pennsylvania in a moment

11:40

that came after a crisis when

11:43

that crisis was leveraged to push

11:45

a conservative orthodoxy and to fundamentally

11:47

change the norms, you understood that

11:50

that was a moment to respond.

11:52

And John, I'm going to come

11:54

to you because I think it's

11:57

important for us to understand how

11:59

that applies. to

12:01

education, that the underpinnings of society, the

12:03

underpinnings of our democracy, the underpinnings of

12:05

our functionality. is based on what we

12:08

know. And we have a whole federal

12:10

department whose sole job it is, is

12:12

to be the Department of Education. So

12:15

I would love to have you talk

12:17

a bit about what the Department of

12:19

Education does, which is so much more

12:22

complicated than most folks realize. And so

12:24

can you talk a little bit about

12:26

how you think about the Department of

12:28

Education in your work? For sure. The

12:31

context that you're placing that in, I

12:33

think, is that we've had this kind

12:35

of strange conversation going on now about

12:38

whether to dismantle the U.S. Department of

12:40

Education. And it really feels very out

12:42

of place to a lot of education.

12:45

And it really feels very out of

12:47

place to a lot of us, partly

12:49

because this is a genuinely tough time

12:52

for U.S. Department of Education does. And

12:54

so it's this, it's a sort of

12:56

odd conversation where, where to me really

12:58

what's been going on is that the

13:01

department has become a symbol of public

13:03

schools. And so it's become sort of

13:05

what people attack when they're trying to

13:08

attack US public schools. So now what

13:10

the department actually does, so the federal

13:12

government when it comes to K-12 education,

13:15

it provides about 10% of funding for

13:17

schools, and its role is limited, but

13:19

it's important. So the kind of core

13:21

parts of the federal rule in education

13:24

are one protection of students' civil rights.

13:26

So it enforces civil rights law that

13:28

cuts across a lot of different types

13:31

of law. Two, it provides compensatory funding

13:33

for groups of students who we might

13:35

worry would otherwise be underfunded. So if

13:38

we had an education system that relied

13:40

entirely on state and local funding, and

13:42

like if we relied on property taxes,

13:44

we would have a vastly unequal set

13:47

of resources that were available to students.

13:49

would be students who live in places

13:51

that have the highest property value would

13:54

have far and away the most resources

13:56

to pay for schools. So part of

13:58

what the federal government's role is is

14:01

that it tries to offset that a

14:03

little bit. So it puts a little

14:05

bit of funding in generally in support

14:07

of students who are lower income and

14:10

then also other groups that would otherwise

14:12

be underfunded. So in particular students with

14:14

disabilities receive some important funding from the

14:17

federal government. And then it plays some

14:19

important roles in research and development. It

14:21

oversees our bone portfolio in higher education.

14:24

But what I think is really important

14:26

to understand about the US Department of

14:28

Education is the department is the department

14:30

is what administers a lot of these

14:33

programs that were actually established in laws

14:35

that often predate the department. So even

14:37

if somehow we were to get rid

14:40

of the US Department of Education, which

14:42

I think is very unlikely for a

14:44

lot of reasons, Those laws still exist.

14:47

So getting rid of the Department of

14:49

Education doesn't mean that we get rid

14:51

of Title I funding or that we

14:53

get rid of protections and resources for

14:56

students with disabilities. The Department of Education

14:58

is just the agency that exists to

15:00

administer those programs and kind of make

15:03

sure that everything is moving as it

15:05

should. Thank you for

15:07

explaining that. We have an elementary

15:09

school librarian in Missouri who wrote

15:11

to us that she was extremely

15:14

worried about the potential elimination of

15:16

the Department of Education. If this

15:18

happens, she asked, you know, what

15:20

would it mean for states like

15:22

hers where federal funding is a

15:24

lifeline for so many school districts?

15:26

And Kate, that brings me back

15:29

to you because part of the

15:31

challenge in Pennsylvania and elsewhere is

15:33

how education is actually delivered in

15:35

the United States. Don just explained

15:37

that federal funding is matched with

15:39

state and local funding, but most

15:42

of the laws are implemented at

15:44

the state and local level. And

15:46

so, you know, 40% of funding

15:48

for special education comes from the

15:50

federal government, but also civil rights

15:52

laws to protect students against discrimination

15:54

based on race, gender, or sexual

15:57

orientation or identity are federal laws,

15:59

not state laws. As a local

16:01

activist, when you think about the

16:03

money comes from here, the laws

16:05

come from here, and there's this

16:07

swirl that becomes the school district,

16:10

can you describe what your experience

16:12

would have been like if you

16:14

were trying to hold local leaders

16:16

accountable without these federal laws as

16:18

backup? it

16:22

would have made the work

16:25

look a lot different, you

16:27

know, and it would have

16:30

been a much larger challenge

16:32

because what the laws do

16:35

for us as just community

16:37

organizers is it gave us

16:40

so much credibility to our

16:42

argument when we could point

16:45

to places where the policy

16:47

could potentially break the law.

16:50

And not only did that

16:52

work with how our school

16:55

board maybe interpreted what we

16:57

were advocating for, but it

17:00

brought the larger community in

17:02

and it also brought more

17:04

recognition for the work itself.

17:07

So having legal protections is

17:09

you know, it was critical

17:12

to supporting the kids, like

17:14

having that ability. And the

17:17

concern I have about just

17:19

the Department of Education moving

17:22

those protections or loosening those

17:24

protections for students. And even

17:27

with Title I funding is,

17:29

and John, I don't know,

17:32

you know, your thoughts on

17:34

this or Stacey, but When

17:37

that, if that would be

17:39

moved to the states, my

17:42

assumption would be that not

17:44

all states would be equal

17:47

in the treatment of students.

17:49

And so, you know, these

17:52

are human rights that we're

17:54

talking about, like Head Start,

17:57

you know, and other programs,

17:59

universal. for school

18:02

lunches and stuff. And

18:04

I just don't understand

18:06

how we could support

18:09

something that wouldn't give

18:11

that to every American,

18:14

you know, child. After

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investing billions to light up our network,

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Abrams is brought to you

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by you by Quince. I have I have five

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All Quince I We

20:25

know that Senator Mike Rounds' bill,

20:28

I talked about at the top

20:30

of the program, what concerns me

20:32

is exactly what Kate's raising, which

20:35

is that the title of his

20:37

bill is returning education to our

20:39

state's act. But as you pointed

20:41

out, a number of the laws

20:44

that we rely on are federal

20:46

laws that predated the Department of

20:48

Education. But the intention seems to

20:51

be to fracture how effectively the

20:53

federal government can actually administer and

20:55

implement and maintain protections for students

20:57

across the country irrespective of where

21:00

they live. So can you talk

21:02

a little bit about what they're

21:04

up to? and what the implications

21:06

are. Sure, so when I'm thinking

21:09

about what we might expect from

21:11

the Trump administration, I think we

21:13

should draw a line between what

21:16

actions would require Congress's cooperation and

21:18

what actions would not. So if

21:20

they want to shut down the

21:22

US Department of Education, as long

21:25

as the Senate filibuster remains in

21:27

place, they would need 60 Senate

21:29

votes and there's no way that's

21:31

going to happen. I

21:34

think even beyond that, they would have

21:36

trouble rallying all Republicans to shut down

21:38

the Department of Education because it just

21:40

required a lot of political capital. And

21:42

really, even if you read Project 2025,

21:44

what they're talking about isn't even much

21:46

of a shrinking of government. It really

21:48

is just this reshuffling to move programs

21:50

into other agencies. And I think people

21:52

would see through it. It's really expensive

21:54

and messy. They would need Congress to

21:56

do that. I think that's unlikely. If

21:58

it were something like Title

22:01

I, which again is this funding

22:03

that goes to students living in

22:05

poverty, that too would require congressional

22:07

action. That would get no support

22:09

from Democrats and would actually be

22:11

very unpopular among many congressional Republicans,

22:13

which is an important part of

22:15

the story politically, which is, and

22:17

we've seen it in school choice

22:19

issues, we've seen it with Title

22:21

I. a lot of what the

22:23

department does and a lot of

22:25

the resources that the department distributes

22:27

actually go disproportionately to conservative areas.

22:29

They go in particular to rural

22:31

Republican areas that would get hit

22:34

the hardest if we were to

22:36

take away some of those those

22:38

sources of funding. So that all

22:40

everything that is on the side

22:42

that would require congressional cooperation, I

22:44

think we should look at a

22:46

little bit skeptically about whether they

22:48

really are going to push hard

22:50

on that. Now, there are some

22:52

other things they can do that

22:54

don't require congressional cooperation, and that's

22:56

where I am expecting them to

22:58

move fairly quickly. And a lot

23:00

of that is about civil rights

23:02

protections. And so this is kind

23:04

of what I'm most concerned about

23:07

most immediately. I think they will

23:09

do a lot very quickly on

23:11

Title IX. And so Title IX

23:13

gets kind of redefined, it's defined

23:15

in law, but there's room for

23:17

the department to interpret it. And

23:19

we see as we move from

23:21

democratic presidents back and forth, we

23:23

see some reinterpret interpretation. I think

23:25

we might see a sort of

23:27

supercharged reinterpretation in this administration. So

23:29

what I'm certainly expecting is they

23:31

will do away with some Biden

23:33

administration guidance that extended protections based

23:35

on sex for sex-based discrimination to

23:37

also apply based on sexual orientation

23:40

and gender identity. I think that

23:42

very quickly will go away. I

23:44

could see them getting a bit

23:46

more aggressive, particularly when it comes

23:48

to transgender student rights, and trying

23:50

to make claims, for example, that

23:52

if a school district allows transgender

23:54

students to participate in girls sports,

23:56

they're violating those sex-based discrimination practices,

23:58

and then they could start to

24:00

threaten district funding and do and

24:02

sort of play some games around

24:04

there. I think we will see

24:06

them change the definitions of sexual

24:08

harassment and assault, which will apply

24:10

to college campuses. potentially to K-12

24:13

systems too. So there is a

24:15

lot of kind of messing around

24:17

and redefining those laws in ways

24:19

or reinterpreting those laws in ways

24:21

that they want to reinterpret them,

24:23

that they can do even without

24:25

congressional cooperation. And I think that

24:27

is a much more likely starting

24:29

point than a sort of true

24:31

dismantling of the department. John, I

24:33

want to make certain our listeners

24:35

understand exactly what you've just described

24:37

because what you've articulated is what

24:39

worries me the most, but I

24:41

want to give some definition. So

24:43

Title One is the federal funding

24:46

program that was designed to provide

24:48

additional resources for poor for low-income

24:50

students. So when you hear Title

24:52

One, that's about how we spend

24:54

money on the most disadvantaged children

24:56

in our schools. Then you've got

24:58

Title IX, which prohibits gender discrimination

25:00

in our schools. Most of the

25:02

time when we talk about Title

25:04

IX in the school system, it's

25:06

around sports. And that's where most

25:08

people experience it the first time.

25:10

But what you were laying out,

25:12

and Kate, I'm going to bring

25:14

this back to you as well.

25:17

is that there is the absolute

25:19

authority within the administration without congressional

25:21

action to reinterpret how they administer

25:23

and how they define discrimination for

25:25

the purposes of the federal government.

25:27

and education. And so the attacks

25:29

on transgender children, the pitting of

25:31

communities against one another with regards

25:33

to youth sports, that's part of

25:35

how they can weaponize Title IX.

25:37

And Kate, I know you saw

25:39

a great deal of this, beginning

25:41

with the conversation about bookbands, can

25:43

you talk a little bit about

25:45

what that looked like when you

25:47

started to see this Title IX

25:50

war being waged in your community?

25:53

Sure. So that's exactly right.

25:55

Much of the target with

25:57

book, well, with the restrictions

26:00

on books, we did ban

26:02

two books. We had 60

26:04

books that were challenged to

26:07

a man. You know, it

26:09

was the same that you

26:11

saw across the country. There

26:14

was just an intense focus

26:16

on queer and trans characters

26:18

and stories. And

26:20

then that moved into

26:22

another policy that was

26:24

limiting our teacher's ability

26:26

to support and advocate

26:28

for all students. They

26:30

weren't allowed to hang

26:32

like a pride flag

26:34

or a symbol of

26:36

inclusion in their classroom.

26:38

And the children's identities

26:41

were sort of conflated

26:43

as being considered political.

26:45

So we were banning

26:47

sort of social political

26:49

activity in classrooms. There

26:51

was no real outright

26:53

obvious discrimination. That's why

26:55

unpacking the policies and

26:57

the motivations behind them

26:59

was really important. So

27:01

something we learned early

27:03

on I was researching

27:05

a case in 2021

27:07

in Ohio, and they

27:09

were arguing for the

27:11

removal of books that

27:13

were sexually explicit. And

27:15

the rationale behind that

27:17

argument was to sort

27:19

of skirt legal scrutiny

27:21

over sexual orientation and

27:23

gender identity. So I

27:25

don't know if I'm

27:27

answering your question, but

27:29

the way that it

27:31

worked here, and I

27:33

suspect it will work

27:35

going forward, is it

27:37

will be like disguised

27:39

or dressed up as

27:41

being something that it

27:43

is not to kind

27:45

of minimize the the

27:49

backlash against the outright

27:52

discrimination. the argument is

27:54

protection of girls. You

27:56

know, we have to

27:59

watch out and look

28:01

out for our girls.

28:03

So if that were

28:05

the case, then you'd

28:08

think our community would

28:10

be concerned about a

28:12

girl playing on a

28:15

boys football team or

28:17

coed sports, but they're

28:19

not. So I suppose

28:22

that the really, like

28:24

the important work is

28:26

to understand what the

28:29

motivation is behind it, which is

28:31

typically exclusion from something based on

28:33

immutable characteristics, whatever they are, and

28:36

to call it out for exactly

28:38

what it is, and then to

28:40

call in the greater, you know,

28:43

calling of what a public school

28:45

is all about, which is to

28:48

welcome all kids and include all

28:50

kids from all backgrounds at all

28:52

times. I mean, it's a really...

28:55

beautiful American objective

28:58

and goal and

29:00

something we are

29:02

constantly striving toward.

29:04

And there's always

29:07

backlash. John,

29:09

and just picking up on Kate's point

29:11

about protecting children, we know that one

29:14

of the long-held conservative concerns is the

29:16

obligation of our public schools to educate

29:18

all children, irrespective of their documentation status.

29:21

Can you talk a little bit about

29:23

what could be done by a Trump

29:25

administration with regards to children who speak

29:28

English as a second language or children

29:30

who are not documented and what worries

29:32

you about what could happen next? So

29:35

by law, even undocumented children have a

29:37

right to access our public schools. And

29:39

really that should be a point of

29:42

pride for all of us as a

29:44

country. I mean, if you go back

29:46

in history when it comes to our

29:49

schools, they have not been perfect forever.

29:51

But we were early adopters of a

29:53

universal public education system, and we should

29:56

feel good about that. And it is

29:58

always been a place where all kids,

30:00

regardless of background, regardless of disability status,

30:02

regardless of what language they speak, they

30:05

can go and they can know that

30:07

they're going to get a certain level

30:09

of education. That is protected by law.

30:12

Now, I, so I would put immigration

30:14

in the mix of issues where I

30:16

don't know what's going to happen because

30:19

I think it's going to be top

30:21

of mind for this administration. I think

30:23

transgender students in transgender issues are another

30:26

one. So they may push in, they

30:28

may push on some of those laws,

30:30

they may try to change something and

30:33

change access, but it is protected by,

30:35

that access to schools is protected by

30:37

law regardless of what language you speak,

30:40

regardless of your, immigration status, you have

30:42

a right to enter a public school

30:44

in the United States and that is

30:47

the law of the land right now.

30:49

So I don't know in what direction

30:51

they will push. I would not be

30:53

surprised if we start to see some

30:56

action in that direction. And the other

30:58

place where I think this is really

31:00

going to be relevant for schools is

31:03

if we see a big push on

31:05

immigration enforcement and we start to see

31:07

large numbers of deportations. Well, there are

31:10

a lot of schools that are going

31:12

to be really affected by that. And

31:14

it could be that it's kids who

31:17

are seeing parents deported, it could be

31:19

that it's schools that are losing a

31:21

lot of students, it could be teachers

31:24

who are at risk, and that's gonna

31:26

be incredibly disruptive for a lot of

31:28

schools across the country. And I hope

31:31

that real thought is given to that,

31:33

about the impacts on the families that

31:35

are at risk of deportation, but also

31:37

to these communities into their schools and

31:40

to what it'll mean to everyone who's

31:42

a part of that that will be

31:44

a type of disruption that I'm not

31:47

sure we've really experienced experienced experienced here.

31:49

I just wanted to share that our

31:51

community, I just am so proud of

31:54

our like Central Bucks community, we have

31:56

an immigrants right group who's already working

31:58

before it's even happened to figure out

32:01

ways we can help support and protect

32:03

the immigrants here and the children. that

32:05

is a real antidote to what's coming

32:08

our way is to just kind of

32:10

like identify the problems early and get

32:12

to it. As someone who has been

32:15

doing this work intensely, has this been

32:17

what you've always done or were you

32:19

new to this work? And can you

32:22

talk a little bit about how you

32:24

navigated becoming an activist when that wasn't

32:26

your original calling? I

32:29

haven't always done this, but I

32:31

grew up with an awesome mom

32:34

and she really modeled how to

32:36

advocate for people. I had a

32:38

sister who had significant education needs

32:40

and mental health needs, and so

32:42

I got to sort of be

32:45

an observer to her incredible advocacy

32:47

and strength and just perseverance. And

32:49

that really impacted me. And anyway,

32:51

I have a background in education

32:53

and special education and I also

32:56

have a background in design and

32:58

communications. I've worked in higher ed

33:00

for a long time doing communication

33:02

work, but I've been home with

33:04

my girls raising them. And so,

33:07

No, I'm not. This was not

33:09

something I thought I would be

33:11

organizing. I just honestly, I believe

33:13

in the freedom to read books

33:15

are just so powerful, important. People

33:18

need to see themselves in books,

33:20

and I feel so strongly about

33:22

that. And when I saw folks

33:24

trying to prevent that from how,

33:26

you know, I was like... No,

33:29

that is like very very wrong.

33:31

And I would do whatever it

33:33

would take. I just felt extremely

33:35

motivated and that motivation led to

33:37

all these other actions, had all

33:40

these meetings like people want to

33:42

help. We are good humans most

33:44

of us, you know. I just

33:46

woke up every day and was

33:48

like, I just wanted do good

33:51

and I have no interest in

33:53

personal like power or I really

33:55

am more comfortable. Like for example,

33:57

this podcast is very difficult for

33:59

me to do. I'm so grateful

34:02

for the opportunity but I'm quiet

34:04

and I'm nervous but I know

34:06

that this I know your platform

34:08

and maybe what I say will

34:10

help. another community do something, you

34:12

know, to help, you know, change

34:15

what's on the ground. And I'm

34:17

amazed with how much power you

34:19

can actually have, how much change

34:21

you can make when you are

34:23

not in power. And you are

34:26

just, you know, a common person.

34:28

Well, Kate, if this is you

34:30

quiet and shy, I feel very

34:32

sorry for your opponents. Oh, really?

34:34

No. No, this is fantastic. And

34:37

John, I want to bring you

34:39

back in because part of what

34:41

we want to do with this

34:43

podcast, part of what Kate describes

34:45

so effectively, is knowing what we're

34:48

facing. And you've spent your career

34:50

really diving into understanding education policy.

34:52

As a former lawmaker, I can

34:54

tell you, not everyone making the

34:56

laws understands what they're doing to

34:59

the degree that you do. We

35:01

are often governed by people who

35:03

are learning as they go. And

35:05

that's not a bad thing. This

35:07

is not a knock on legislators.

35:10

You've got lots of different topics.

35:12

And so We try to learn

35:14

as much as we can on

35:16

as many topics as we can,

35:18

but the kind of expertise that

35:21

you hold is so critical. Can

35:23

you talk a bit about how

35:25

someone who hears Kate and says,

35:27

I want to do this? How

35:29

can you help them think about

35:32

learning about policy and understanding what

35:34

they should be asking for, as

35:36

they start their journey of engagement?

35:38

Kate is doing incredible work in

35:40

Central Bucks. In Central Bucks, we've

35:43

all been reading about the work

35:45

that's been going on in Central

35:47

Bucks. And it's really amazing stuff.

35:49

And it's not just Kate though.

35:51

There are people across the country

35:54

who are doing work in their

35:56

local schools. It really is amazing.

35:58

And it's coming at a time

36:00

when we've had this kind of

36:02

nationalization of ugly cultural war politics

36:05

in schools. And it's really been

36:07

important to have people engaging locally.

36:09

And maybe they don't have, you

36:11

know, you know, research backgrounds and

36:13

haven't spent their careers studying policy

36:16

and studying research, but they might

36:18

have kids or they know some

36:20

teachers or maybe they taught and

36:22

that's really the kind of information,

36:24

the kind of background that you

36:27

need to engage. And one of

36:29

the things that I love about

36:31

schools and about education systems in

36:33

the US is they are probably

36:35

our most accessible public institutions. I

36:38

mean, you can walk in to

36:40

a school board meeting and you

36:42

can be heard and you can

36:44

communicate with your school board members,

36:46

you can talk to your school

36:49

principal. There's an on-the-ground grassroots side

36:51

to education that is hard to

36:53

find in a lot of other

36:55

policy areas. So I mean, if

36:57

you're upset about what you think

37:00

the Trump administration might do on

37:02

foreign policy, it can be hard,

37:04

honestly, to change how foreign policy

37:06

looks. If you're upset about what's

37:08

going on in your kid's schools,

37:11

well you can walk into a

37:13

school board meeting, you can run

37:15

for school board, you can do

37:17

some of the things that Kate's

37:19

doing, and that really does make

37:22

a big difference because we have

37:24

a really decentralized school system and

37:26

the expertise that it takes to

37:28

run that system, it's not a

37:30

bunch of sort of textbook expertise.

37:33

It's really the experiences of teachers

37:35

and of parents and of others

37:37

who know something about what they

37:39

want for their kids. And if

37:41

you know how to navigate that

37:44

system, and again, it really isn't

37:46

very hard. It just takes a

37:48

little bit of initiative to get

37:50

involved and get engaged. Education is

37:52

absolutely a place where you can

37:55

have impact in that way. What

37:57

brought you to this conversation? So

37:59

my my actually is in

38:01

ethics and philosophy and in thinking about

38:03

what is a just society and what

38:06

is a just state and my my

38:08

view is really it starts with education

38:10

that starts with school. I think education

38:12

is our pathway to dignity. I think

38:14

it's our pathway to something resembling equity

38:17

and so really I think education is

38:19

sort of the foundation of a lot

38:21

of what we do and what a

38:23

lot of other policy is built on.

38:25

And so for me, I'm sort of

38:28

a researcher by nature, I study policies

38:30

and try to understand what the effects

38:32

of different policies and why do we

38:34

have these inequalities we have and what

38:36

can we do to address those inequalities.

38:39

And then a lot of my work

38:41

is trying to find people like Kate

38:43

who have sort of such good intentions

38:45

and good ideas about how to reshape

38:47

their systems locally so that we can

38:50

try to start a conversation between people

38:52

who are making decisions when it comes

38:54

to local and state policy in particular

38:56

and some of the research that we

38:58

do in my world. Now

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40:36

just raised local and state policy.

40:38

And for me, the conversation. for me, the it

40:40

may begin at the federal level, at but. am

40:43

myopically focused on local

40:45

and state implementation and

40:47

state implementation around

40:49

the issue of education. Because

40:51

we know that because we

40:53

know be federal law be

40:56

federal policy. policy, there

40:58

is a very intentional. devolution

41:01

of power to the states makes it

41:03

easier to fracture us as a

41:05

country. a country. Yes, we are

41:08

we are. in education, but but

41:10

we have fed moral laws

41:12

laws and mores say that we

41:14

should all be treated. treated roughly

41:16

the same. and yet

41:18

the country governments are

41:20

taking aggressive advantage of

41:23

the 2022 Carson versus making decision. And for

41:25

those who for those who don't

41:27

follow this stuff way way

41:29

I do, was a this was

41:31

a Court decision that reversed decades

41:33

of precedent and it ruled

41:36

that that states be prohibited from religious

41:38

schools. or or allowing them

41:40

to access public school funding. funding.

41:43

And so this added religious schools to the

41:45

list to the schools private siphon off

41:47

public school dollars for school mean

41:49

for for public, I mean for

41:51

private given the number of number bills

41:53

that are around the country at

41:55

the state level. level, this

41:57

to me, seems like the most active

41:59

area. in policy that we

42:01

aren't talking about as much as

42:03

we should. So John, what are

42:05

you seeing and what do you

42:07

think we should be on the

42:09

lookout for? So I think that

42:11

is exactly right. I think this

42:13

is exactly where our eyes should

42:15

be focused. So if you if

42:18

you look across the country at

42:20

big policy trends right now, one

42:22

very striking trend is that we've

42:24

seen a push, especially in red

42:26

states, but also in a couple

42:28

of purple states. toward building what

42:30

are essentially universal school voucher programs.

42:32

And school vouchers have existed for

42:34

a long time, where they're basically

42:36

government money that would go to

42:38

families to pay for private school

42:40

tuition or other kinds of educational

42:42

expenses. And we have at a

42:44

very different breed of those policies

42:46

that have emerged in the last

42:48

few years, where they're available to

42:50

everyone and they're big programs. So

42:52

in Arizona, for example, it doesn't

42:54

matter if you're the wealthiest family

42:56

in the state of Arizona. you

42:58

can get this public money and

43:00

go pay for the private school

43:02

that you are already paying for

43:04

anyway. It just essentially becomes a

43:06

discount. And in Arizona, and we've

43:08

done some research on Arizona among

43:10

other places, those are the families

43:12

that are benefiting from those policies.

43:14

It's wealthy families and wealthy communities

43:17

sending their kids to expensive private

43:19

schools. And there has been an

43:21

interest among many Republicans to try

43:23

to do something at the federal

43:25

level when it comes to private

43:27

school choice programs, whether it's a

43:29

voucher program or something that looks

43:31

like a voucher program. And they've

43:33

had, so they've had trouble getting

43:35

it passed. And actually in the

43:37

first Trump administration, they tried to

43:39

create what's called a tax credit

43:41

scholarship program, where basically you give

43:43

tax credits to people who donate

43:45

money to organizations that then give

43:47

vouchers to families. And the first

43:49

Trump administration tried to pass that

43:51

and they ran up against too

43:53

much opposition from Democrats, but also

43:55

from those rural Republicans we were

43:57

talking about earlier who looked around

43:59

and said, wait a minute, we

44:01

don't have a bunch of fancy

44:03

private schools in my area. Why

44:05

would we want this policy? And

44:07

now we're very likely to see

44:09

something, some kind of push again

44:11

because it has become this this

44:13

sort of red state push in

44:16

that direction, but the politics here

44:18

too are quite interesting because if

44:20

they tried to pass a private

44:22

school choice program as a standalone

44:24

bill it would very likely fail.

44:26

again with opposition both unified from

44:28

Democrats and from a lot of

44:30

these Republicans who are skeptical. So

44:32

what is what I think is

44:34

most likely that they're going to

44:36

do is they're going to try

44:38

to sneak a big private school

44:40

choice program into the tax bill

44:42

next year. And I hope people

44:44

are paying attention to that because

44:46

that there's a bit of a

44:48

shell game when it comes to

44:50

the money because it's a tax

44:52

credit and then the funds go

44:54

to these organizations and those those

44:56

funds go to families and then

44:58

to schools. And so it's it's

45:00

a bit hard to it's a

45:02

bit hard to follow what hard

45:04

to follow what And that tax

45:06

bill conversation is going to talk

45:08

about a lot of different issues,

45:10

but this is a big one.

45:12

And it's a big one for

45:15

public schools, because it's going to

45:17

mean a whole lot of resources

45:19

that otherwise might have found their

45:21

way to public schools, will find

45:23

their way to private schools instead.

45:25

And it is a policy and

45:27

an approach that is inherently antagonistic

45:29

to our public education system. And

45:31

so when people start talking if

45:33

that conversation starts about tax credit

45:35

scholarship programs and what that might

45:37

look like in tax bills, I

45:39

would hear that as private school

45:41

vouchers because it is structurally a

45:43

little bit differently, but fundamentally it

45:45

is the same thing and it

45:47

would pose just as much a

45:49

threat to public schools as any

45:51

of those voucher programs that we've

45:53

talked about in the past. Absolutely.

45:55

Kate, what does that look like

45:57

in your area? Have you all

45:59

been in conversation, especially with teachers

46:01

or other parents, about how they

46:03

feel about private school voucher programs?

46:05

Georgia has the tax credit. We

46:07

were one of the starter states

46:09

for this tax credit idea. And

46:11

how do you feel about it

46:14

as a parent? We here in

46:16

Central Bucks and, you know, we

46:18

love our schools, our community schools.

46:20

In fact, we are embroiled in

46:22

debate over three elementary schools may

46:24

need to combine for financial reasons,

46:26

and there are people petitioning just

46:28

to keep their elementary school open.

46:30

So it's a losing issue when

46:32

people understand what's happening and what's

46:34

at stake, and there's a wonderful

46:36

group called Education Voters with PA.

46:38

They're in central Pennsylvania and they

46:40

have been advocating for equitable funding

46:42

for all schools for a very

46:44

very long time. They were very

46:46

influential in the latest school funding

46:48

bill. And I mention this because

46:50

they are just a tremendous resource

46:52

for all communities to try to

46:54

understand what a voucher program would

46:56

look like. And we know it

46:58

just exactly as John said, it

47:00

creates. just this you know stratified

47:02

sort of system of have and

47:04

have nots and and it just

47:06

does it disadvantages so many people

47:08

and it just continues to advantage

47:10

the wealthy and in fact the

47:13

whole school choice movement and in

47:15

my opinion has really taken advantage

47:17

of what people are calling cultural

47:19

war issues, to use, to divide

47:21

communities, to find favor in private

47:23

school options, and really this is

47:25

going to benefit who, like the

47:27

billionaires who are going to be

47:29

making a buck off of education.

47:31

It's, it's, I think, I have

47:33

always felt that as complicated and

47:35

flawed as public education can be,

47:37

it is always, it is always

47:39

beloved. And you can really, like

47:41

we used to throw out this

47:43

image of just one of our

47:45

high school graduation photos where everyone's

47:47

on the field and they throw

47:49

their hats up in the air

47:51

and it just combines like the

47:53

entire community. And I mean, that

47:55

is what schools are for communities,

47:57

they're anchors, they're places where people

47:59

gather. wants to see their

48:02

neighborhood schools closing. And when you

48:04

kind of talk about it in

48:06

those terms, like, you know, people

48:08

typically, you know, will oppose any

48:10

effort to do so. I'd like

48:12

to share a listener question with

48:14

you that dovetails with what you

48:16

just said. Liam Stitt is a

48:18

16-year-old in Kaiser, Oregon, and he

48:20

wrote, while I'm not old enough

48:22

to vote, I have a fascination

48:24

with politics and government. I am

48:26

even the youth liaison from my

48:29

city's parks and recreation board. The

48:31

thing is, it feels like politicians

48:33

are too busy to talk with

48:35

constituents. Is this true? I've sent

48:37

various emails and letters to some

48:39

of my state and federal representatives

48:41

before, but I always get an

48:43

automated response. It can feel disappointing.

48:45

I want to know how I

48:47

can get involved apart from learning

48:49

about it and how can I

48:51

make sure I am heard when

48:53

speaking about issues that matter to

48:56

me. Okay, here's a thought, Liam.

48:58

So they're not responding to you

49:00

via email and letters. You could

49:02

show up if that's a possibility

49:04

for you. Just get out there

49:06

and knock on the door. Start

49:08

researching, like looking for local groups

49:10

that are advocating issues. I think

49:12

it was environmental issues. attend a

49:14

township or a city meeting in

49:16

person, make a public comment, introduce

49:18

yourself to your local leaders. Many

49:20

times it's like the hyper-local, like

49:23

16, okay, so teachers, start asking

49:25

your teachers, first, it's really about

49:27

networking, and using your passion and

49:29

your voice to kind of just

49:31

keep going. It can be a

49:33

long road or it could be

49:35

just poof, magically you get in

49:37

touch with the right person who

49:39

can help amplify your issue. So

49:41

John, do you have advice for

49:43

Liam and as you think about

49:45

it? also want you to think

49:47

as someone who is constantly seeing

49:49

education from the policy perspective, and

49:52

it's informed by what I think

49:54

is a profound conversation that you

49:56

had about ethics and how we

49:58

situate ourselves in society, what do

50:00

you wish more people understood about

50:02

how education policy decisions are made

50:04

and their ability to have an

50:06

impact? Sure. So to take the

50:08

second part of that question first,

50:10

I think I mean this very

50:12

literally. If you're concerned about what's

50:14

going on in your schools and

50:16

you want to have a voice

50:19

in how education looks locally, you

50:21

would have more impact being elected

50:23

as a school board member than

50:25

you would being elected as president

50:27

of the United States. Like that

50:29

is our school system. Our school

50:31

system is hyper local. And if

50:33

you're whether you're running for school

50:35

board and you're actually an elected

50:37

representative or you're just finding ways

50:39

to influence decisions that the school

50:41

board is making, like for all

50:43

of the conversation that we're having

50:45

now about the Trump administration and

50:48

schools, it is really important what

50:50

happens at the local level and

50:52

it's really important what happens at

50:54

the state level and especially locally,

50:56

those are fundamentally accessible institutions. So

50:58

I would say to those who

51:00

are thinking about what can they

51:02

do, you really can actually do

51:04

a lot in the space and

51:06

down to I would consider running

51:08

for school board. In Liam, that

51:10

goes for you too. I mean,

51:12

I love at age 16 that

51:15

you're thinking about that already. I

51:17

would echo everything Kate said. I

51:19

would just say to keep Adam.

51:21

So sometimes the reasons why people

51:23

aren't getting back to you are

51:25

sort of innocuous. And it's not

51:27

that they're ignoring you. Sometimes people

51:29

get busy. I mean, I do

51:31

a lot of work now talking

51:33

with school board members. And our

51:35

school board members across the country,

51:37

typically they're under unpaid or definitely

51:39

underpaid. They work a lot of

51:42

hours. They hear from a lot

51:44

of people, often people who are

51:46

pretty angry with them. So keep

51:48

at people and don't, you know,

51:50

don't let up. And I agree

51:52

with Kate that the go to

51:54

them, you know, if it, you

51:56

know, making phone calls and sending

51:58

emails isn't enough, go show up

52:00

in public comment periods and be

52:02

ready to run for a seat

52:04

or to be that student liaison

52:06

on the school board or whatever

52:08

it may be. So keep at

52:11

it because again, these are just

52:13

fundamentally accessible institutions of government and

52:15

that's not true for all of

52:17

our institutions. And so I would

52:19

take advantage of that when it

52:21

comes to schools. John

52:23

Volat, Kate Nizimi, you have given us

52:26

a lot to think about. You have

52:28

helped us understand that the Department of

52:30

Education is likely not going anywhere, but

52:32

we've got a lot of other fights

52:34

we have to fight. Thank you so

52:36

much for giving us the steps to

52:38

get started. John Volat, Kate Nizimi. Thanks

52:41

so much for joining me on the

52:43

Assembly required. Thanks, Susan. Thank you. As

52:47

Kate and John talked about, we

52:49

have a moment before us where

52:51

we can defend public education, but

52:53

also the fundamental values that make

52:55

us strong. In fact, they gave

52:57

us a few ideas. Number one,

52:59

ask for help. Get the information

53:01

you need. Number two, put sand

53:03

in the gears. Make it hard

53:05

for the people who want to

53:07

do wrong, to do it fast.

53:09

And three, show, don't just tell.

53:11

Make certain people understand what it

53:13

feels like for these changes to

53:15

be made or for better to

53:17

be done. In fact, each week,

53:19

here's what we do at Assembly

53:22

Required. We try to leave the

53:24

audience with a way to take

53:26

action, an opportunity to make a

53:28

difference, and a way to get

53:30

involved, or just get started on

53:32

working out a solution in a

53:34

segment we like to call our

53:36

toolkit. Here at Assembly Required,

53:38

we encourage the audience to be curious, to

53:40

solve problems, and do good. First, check out

53:43

the work of Advocates for Inclusive Education on

53:45

Instagram at AFIE Bucks. There, you can see

53:47

what a call to action looks like, and

53:49

you can see links through their blogs and

53:52

resources. Perhaps it can serve as a template

53:54

for you, either for you to use to

53:56

create your own organization. find people people

53:58

that are doing similar

54:01

things in your community.

54:04

And by the way, way, Kate

54:06

and her friends, they won. In 2022, they

54:08

2022, they flipped the school district and

54:10

started rolling back many of the

54:12

changes made. made. Number two, we should we should

54:14

all take a page out of Kate's

54:16

book and make a list of the

54:18

people we know know where they work.

54:20

Do you know Do you know someone who

54:22

teaches law at the local college knows

54:24

knows folks at the legal organization who

54:27

can protect transgender rights? Or a

54:29

manager at a local store can can

54:31

help arrange food drives for children during

54:33

holiday breaks? breaks? Maybe you'll be surprised

54:35

at the extent of your network

54:37

and get some ideas about how to

54:39

jump in and help. about how to If

54:41

you wanna tell us what you've

54:43

learned and what you've solved, send us

54:45

an email at solved, send us an.com or

54:47

leave us a voicemail and you and

54:50

your questions us a and comments might

54:52

be featured on the pod. Our number

54:54

is might be featured on the pod. -9509. up That

54:56

wraps up this episode of required with Stacey

54:58

Abrams. I'll I'll meet you here next

55:00

week. week. ["Evansutton"]

55:08

Assembly required Stacey Abrams is

55:10

a a media production. Our

55:12

lead show producer is is

55:14

Alona Minkovsky our associate producer

55:17

is is Paulina Velasco. Kiro is our

55:19

video producer. This episode

55:21

was recorded and mixed by

55:23

Evan Sutton. Our theme

55:25

song is by by Vassilis Thank

55:27

you to you to Matt Kyle

55:30

Seglin, Tyler Boozer, and Samantha Slosberg for production

55:32

support. Our executive producers

55:34

are are Katie Long, Madeline and me,

55:36

me, Stacey Abrams. ["Evansutton"]

55:52

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