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IPworkswonders. Welcome

0:39

to to Assembly with Stacey Abrams

0:41

from Abrams I'm your host,

0:43

Stacey Abrams. host, Stacey Abrams. Now, I'm glad

0:45

you're here. I I really

0:47

am. all know We all know

0:50

who have decided to take a break

0:52

from the news news and the world. world. Those

0:54

who who have opted for

0:56

what is called internal exile, shutting out

0:58

you know, shutting out the

1:00

constant stream of, that thing that happens

1:03

with thing that happens with

1:05

every new appointment or all caps

1:07

from the from the incoming administration. I

1:10

I know what it feels like to want

1:12

to hide. to want want to shut out

1:14

the world and say, show show up when

1:16

things are fixed. The The problem is

1:19

we've got to be the ones to fix them. to

1:21

fix them. I grew up in the deep south,

1:23

as I've mentioned before, and I

1:25

decided to be a democratic - to be a

1:27

in Georgia politician I

1:29

did so a time a time when

1:31

exile made a lot of

1:33

sense. where just saying never mind seem to

1:35

be the only answer. answer. Then realized

1:37

that what they wanted was for

1:39

me to shut down. shut They

1:41

wanted me to shut up, to

1:43

tune out, out, to turn off, and

1:45

to let them do what they

1:47

wanted. And we we feel a deep

1:49

to need to do that now

1:52

because it can be overwhelming to

1:54

confront what is to come. We all

1:56

We all to to the pronouncement. from

1:58

Project 2025. 2025. from

2:00

deportations to cutting the education department

2:02

to the prospect of a federal

2:04

abortion ban. of a We know that

2:06

DEI is about to be struck

2:08

down and that the protections for

2:10

people of color, for women, for

2:13

children, that the ADA might

2:15

be under attack might be we

2:17

don't know how to make

2:19

sense don't make sense of it. but

2:21

the reality is we know how to do

2:23

it. do We've done it before. before. We

2:26

want to distance ourselves, but we

2:28

know we've got to show up anyway,

2:30

to because the very people that they

2:32

want to attack, that if it's not us,

2:35

it's someone we know, someone we

2:37

love, someone we need. know, someone we

2:39

job is not to simply survive

2:41

the next few years. survive

2:43

the next few years. is

2:45

to win. to win. But when he's

2:47

he's going to take time. time? And I And

2:49

I understand, but vehemently

2:52

disagree. disagree Trump and his

2:54

ilk are aberrations. We

2:56

would love to think that if we waited them

2:58

out, things would get better. out, things but

3:00

they're just one possible future. just

3:02

one but they are the absolute

3:04

future if we don't engage now. if

3:07

we don't respond now, if

3:09

we don't act now. we don't

3:11

act Our actions may be small. be

3:13

small, the The reactions may be

3:15

big. and the and the change may

3:17

be incremental. but we but

3:19

we can still make progress. For

3:22

example, I know the federal government

3:24

holds tremendous power. power

3:26

it feels like it's the only power. power,

3:28

but state and local government will be critical

3:30

tools in the next few years. in the

3:32

next few understood this 40 years

3:34

ago. this 40 at one point, so

3:36

did we. so did we. understood that state

3:39

and local government gave us the

3:41

ability. gave us to fix some of the things that

3:43

were being broken. things that were to test

3:45

out what could make us better. make stronger.

3:47

and stronger. So one of the

3:49

ways we will insist on the type

3:51

of leadership we deserve deserve by harnessing the

3:53

role that our our play. can play. We've

3:56

already already seen evidence of how this

3:58

might play out. One of our listeners. wrote in

4:00

to identify that as an LGBTQIA

4:02

plus person, they've seen businesses and

4:04

health care providers in their state

4:06

assuring them of their support for

4:08

the community. But they also know

4:11

they're likely targets of the incoming

4:13

administration. And so they are already

4:15

thinking about what protections their state

4:17

can offer. As I mentioned, I

4:19

got my start in state and

4:21

local governments. And I'll be coming

4:23

back to this topic in various

4:25

forms over and over again because

4:27

it's one of our weapons. we

4:29

can either turn away or we

4:31

can turn to what we know

4:33

we have. Some people like righteous

4:36

indignation, I prefer guerrilla warfare. So

4:38

for example, we've discussed the power

4:40

of the states in an episode

4:42

a few weeks ago with historian

4:44

Heather Cox Richardson, which if you

4:46

haven't listened yet, please do so.

4:48

Go ahead. We'll wait. Heather

4:51

talked about how states' rights are

4:53

coming back to the fore, but

4:55

not entirely in the Jim Crow

4:58

version, we recall. Instead, this time

5:00

around, states can assert the rights

5:02

of the vulnerable and protect the

5:04

targeted through lawsuits filed by state

5:06

attorneys general or by state government's

5:08

passing laws to protect communities, but

5:11

that requires waiting for politicians to

5:13

get it done. Another method of

5:15

insistence is through ballot initiatives, a

5:17

way that voters can directly impact

5:19

the laws in their state. In

5:21

fact, we saw a lot of

5:24

ballot measures in this election cycle.

5:26

Question 5 would get rid of

5:28

sales tax on child and adult

5:30

diapers. Nevada voted yes on this

5:32

ballot measure. And now to initiative

5:34

436, which requires Nebraska workplaces to

5:36

require paid sick leave, here's a

5:39

look at the results. The four

5:41

vote is 75%. The against vote

5:43

is 25. If voters pass Prop

5:45

3 this year, the language will

5:47

be repealed and replaced with the

5:49

right to marry is a fundamental

5:52

right. No mention of gender at

5:54

all. Ballot initiatives are policy proposals

5:56

that a group of citizens draft

5:58

themselves. They gather signatures for and

6:00

they put the question on the

6:02

ballot before all voters. Although the

6:05

small details vary from state to

6:07

state and not all states allow

6:09

it, we have to use every

6:11

tool we can wherever we can,

6:13

and ballot initiatives are direct democracy

6:15

in action. I

6:18

believe in direct democracy. I believe

6:20

in using what we have to

6:22

do what we need until we

6:24

get what we want. And so

6:26

despite Democrats losing the White House

6:28

and Congress, we know that there

6:31

were citizen-led campaigns for progressive issues

6:33

that won in November. And those

6:35

wins can provide a pathway to

6:37

not only insistence, but success. states

6:39

as varied as Missouri, Nebraska, Colorado,

6:41

Nevada, and six other states this

6:43

year, we saw ballot initiatives work.

6:46

Voters use those ballot measures to

6:48

change their state laws and to

6:50

make things better, including on issues

6:52

like paid leave and abortion rights.

6:54

when folks are voting for whether

6:56

it's someone to be the next

6:58

president of the United States or

7:00

their representative in the U.S. Senate,

7:03

they are bringing a lot with

7:05

them into the ballot box. They

7:07

are thinking about a variety of

7:09

issues. And I think what's so

7:11

great about these ballot measure campaigns

7:13

is we can just focus on

7:15

how do voters feel about abortion

7:17

rights and about the state of

7:20

access where they live. That voice

7:22

you heard was Rachel Sweet. She

7:24

was the campaign manager for Missourians

7:26

for constitutional freedom, the coalition that

7:28

passed abortion rights in her home

7:30

state of Missouri. And she was

7:32

a key player in ballot initiative

7:34

campaigns in Kansas, Kentucky, and Ohio,

7:37

not exactly bastions of progressive policy.

7:39

Those ballot initiatives defended or established

7:41

abortion rights. And today, Rachel Sweet

7:43

joins me on Assembly required. Well,

7:48

Rachel, I am excited to have

7:50

you on the podcast in part

7:52

because we're both from MI states

7:55

that make really interesting choices. Are

7:57

you originally from Missouri? I

8:00

am not. not. I'm originally from Ohio, I but

8:02

I have lived in Missouri for the

8:04

past 20 years, so I am a at this

8:06

at this point. I was born in I

8:08

was born in Wisconsin, but grew up in Mississippi and

8:11

then then came of age in Georgia, but

8:13

I claim Mississippi because you've been there. been

8:15

That's where you are, man. you are, man. Well, I'm just

8:17

Well, I'm just delighted to have you. Thank you so

8:19

much for taking the time to join us. you

8:21

so much for having me. me. So

8:24

you you are

8:26

a self -described polite Midwesterner

8:28

and you know, you're from Missouri, from

8:30

Ohio, you have no escape. no

8:32

escape. So you ran your most

8:35

recent most recent. rights

8:37

campaign in rights campaign in

8:39

Missouri. How is

8:41

this part of you? How is it one

8:43

of you. How is it one of your strengths in what

8:46

you do? do? Oh, I I think that's

8:48

such a great question. a great Let

8:50

me say Let maybe first, being a

8:52

polite Midwestern a an aspiration, Midwesterner an aspiration,

8:54

Part of our Midwest values, right?

8:56

We want to right? We one another

8:58

with respect another we want to

9:01

take care of folks in our

9:03

community. community. But that politeness I think

9:05

I sometimes lead to us us talking

9:07

around and stepping around complicated

9:10

but important issues abortion

9:12

rights and access. access. And I

9:14

I believe as somebody who

9:16

has has, I say, only worked in worked

9:18

in hard places, don't have I

9:20

don't have a lot of personal

9:22

interest in know, working on. in

9:24

in New York or California, even though those

9:26

are though those are just as important as

9:28

any other state in the country the country, but

9:31

personally enjoy doing the work in

9:33

places where it can be more challenging

9:35

because places like Missouri, places like Mississippi

9:37

are often the places that are forgotten

9:39

that are we have these conversations about about

9:41

do we make policy change that will

9:43

make this country better keep aspiring will

9:45

keep aspiring to be a polite as long as

9:47

it long as it doesn't get in

9:49

the way of doing the organizing that

9:51

we need to do to move

9:54

us forward. Well, as

9:56

a a polite I also share

9:58

your your aspiration those. those. my

10:00

parents are from Mississippi, and I

10:02

think it was 2012 or 2014.

10:04

Mississippi had a constitutional amendment to

10:06

ban abortion. My parents are Methodist

10:08

ministers. They're black Methodist ministers. And

10:10

the presumption, including for me, was

10:13

that my parents were going to

10:15

vote for that constitutional amendment. But

10:17

I called them and I said,

10:19

mom, dad, I want to talk

10:21

to you about this constitutional amendment.

10:23

I'm in Georgia, but I know

10:25

it's coming up. What do you

10:27

think about it? And my parents

10:29

are like, oh, we're going to

10:31

vote against it. And we've been

10:33

talking about it. And it was

10:35

a surprise to me. I mean,

10:38

I'm their child that they were

10:40

so adamant. in opposition. And I

10:42

think what you said about these

10:44

being hard places, part of it

10:46

is that we are raised to

10:48

believe that we're not supposed to

10:50

change our minds. Can you talk

10:52

a little bit about how you

10:54

confront that conversation internally before you

10:56

externalize it? Yeah, absolutely. You know,

10:58

I was fortunate to grow up

11:01

with, I would say, a pretty

11:03

diverse community around me. I grew

11:05

up in a very sort of

11:07

rust belt working class town in

11:09

Ohio, pretty diverse racially in terms

11:11

of income. So I think I

11:13

was really fortunate to grow up

11:15

among people with different perspectives on

11:17

issues. My immediate family though I

11:19

would say has always been pretty

11:21

progressive, pretty supportive. So for me

11:23

I think as we talk about

11:26

you know what is the sort

11:28

of internal work that one needs

11:30

to do to do advocacy to

11:32

do organizing. For me I think

11:34

it was really more about not

11:38

necessarily dialing back a commitment to

11:40

justice or to doing the right

11:42

thing or to progressive policy but

11:44

having to grow a little bit

11:46

and figuring out how to talk

11:48

to people who disagree with me

11:50

because I did benefit from you

11:52

know having parents and family that

11:54

in many ways reinforced what I

11:56

believe it gave me the value

11:58

system that has led me to

12:00

do the work I do. But

12:02

one of my first exercises in

12:04

that was really when I used

12:06

to lobby for reproductive rights in

12:08

the Kansas Capitol. And let me

12:10

tell you, in the Kansas Capitol,

12:12

you cannot either stop a bad

12:14

bill or get anything passed without

12:16

talking to a lot of Republicans.

12:18

And it was so interesting because

12:21

you would, you know, meet these

12:23

people, they weren't the most vocal

12:25

opponents of anti-abortion laws, but they'd

12:27

always kind of vote with their

12:29

party. And when you sit down

12:31

and have conversations with some of

12:33

these folks who have never taken

12:35

a vote in support of abortion

12:37

rights or access, they

12:39

will tell you things that you

12:41

would just be completely surprised by.

12:43

They would tell you, oh, you

12:46

know, my wife had abortion or,

12:48

you know, my niece had to

12:50

go to X-State to get care

12:52

that she needed. And so it's

12:54

really interesting when you actually can,

12:56

we could pull away some of

12:58

that partisan. facade and those preconceptions

13:00

and attitudes and just have conversations

13:02

with people. You mentioned the fact

13:04

that you did this work in

13:06

Kansas. In fact, you led the

13:08

no campaign. It was similar to

13:10

what Mississippi, the issue I referenced

13:12

with my parents, it was a

13:14

constitutional amendment that was going to

13:16

enshrine anti-abortion law, and you led

13:18

a campaign to get people to

13:20

say no. Talk about why that

13:23

was so important to you and

13:25

what you think made the difference

13:27

because it wasn't just talking to

13:29

legislators so you could pigeonhole or

13:31

buttonhole in a capital. You had

13:33

to get an entire state to

13:35

pay attention. How did you think

13:37

about it? Yeah, so I think

13:39

the thing that makes these campaigns

13:41

so successful is that the foundation

13:43

for these abortion rights ballot measures

13:45

is really state-based coalitions and state-based

13:47

organizing. I think with the Kansas

13:49

campaign in particular, the Dobbs decision

13:51

happened in June of 2022. and

13:53

our amendment was going to be

13:55

on the ballot six weeks later.

13:57

So suddenly there was this, you

14:00

know, huge increase in national attention

14:02

and fundraising and it was kind

14:04

of like all eyes were on

14:06

the little red state of Kansas.

14:08

But what I think folks didn't

14:10

see is that the group that

14:12

really moved that campaign forward had

14:14

been working on it since 2019

14:16

when that state Supreme Court decision

14:18

that found the right to abortion

14:20

in the Kansas Constitution first came

14:22

down, right? In 2020, legislators tried

14:24

to put the same measure on

14:26

the ballot that they successfully placed

14:28

on the ballot in 2022. There

14:30

was a huge lobbying effort to

14:32

keep it off the ballot. And

14:34

I think, you know, when these

14:37

campaigns get talked about in sort

14:39

of the mainstream, you know, political-pendant

14:41

type universe, We unfortunately kind of

14:43

forget that these are not things

14:45

that just happened overnight, right? This

14:47

is the work of state-based organizers

14:49

that are doing this kind of

14:51

thing all the time that are

14:53

out there talking to voters about

14:55

abortion that are out there organizing

14:57

their communities around how do we

14:59

protect access, how do we maintain

15:01

access to care? And I think

15:03

that is really what sort of

15:05

sets these efforts apart from, you

15:07

know, campaigns that candidates might run.

15:09

I think in Kansas in particular,

15:11

we had a very different electorate

15:13

that showed up on election day

15:16

than what we anticipated. I think

15:18

the anti-abortion politicians in Kansas thought,

15:20

oh, we can put this on

15:22

a primary election ballot where most

15:24

people don't show up and the

15:26

folks that will have the biggest

15:28

incentive to show up are our

15:30

voters right that's that's their thought

15:32

as you know going into this

15:34

but what we saw is that

15:36

by sort of having this two-pronged

15:38

strategy if we're gonna you know

15:40

we're gonna talk to these more

15:42

conservative and independent voters and try

15:44

to reach them on shared values

15:46

right you know who should be

15:48

making this decision should be government

15:50

or should it be women and

15:53

their families? And then we are

15:55

going to work on mobilizing and

15:57

motivating our base of support who

15:59

always supports abortion rights and sometimes

16:01

in places like Kansas is a

16:03

little quieter than we'd like. And

16:05

by doing those two things successfully,

16:07

we saw, you know, not just

16:09

a victory, but we saw a

16:11

turnout go from what we expected

16:13

to be around, you know, 27%

16:15

to almost 50% of Kansas voters

16:17

showing up. on an August election

16:19

in a mid-term year. So it's,

16:21

I think we all just have

16:23

to be able to walk and

16:25

chew gum at the same time.

16:27

And I think that, you know,

16:30

as we're even looking back at

16:32

the results of this most recent

16:34

election across the board, there always

16:36

seems to be these debates about,

16:38

you know, do we need to

16:40

talk more to voters in the

16:42

middle? Do we need to be

16:44

more progressive so that we're motivating

16:46

our base? And I think it's

16:48

really a false choice. finding ways

16:50

to connect with voters across the

16:52

political spectrum on our shared values,

16:54

because we have a lot more

16:56

common than we do different. I'm

16:58

going to have you say that

17:00

again. I think you said something

17:02

perfect. You think it's a, what's

17:04

that phrase you used? I think

17:07

you said false choice. Yeah, I

17:09

do. I think it is a

17:11

false choice. And the reason I

17:13

want to emphasize that, I want

17:15

to impact a few things that

17:17

you mentioned. One is that you

17:19

talk about a tool, which is

17:21

the ballot measure, and the second

17:23

is the tactic, which is using

17:25

shared values and talking to everyone

17:27

and letting people decide they don't

17:29

want to hear you versus deciding

17:31

for them because of what you

17:33

think they are, who you think

17:35

they are. So let's start with

17:37

the shared values piece. How do

17:39

you decide and how should coalitions

17:41

decide when shared values are a

17:43

part of their narrative? Should they

17:46

change what they want to do

17:48

based on this idea of shared

17:50

values or should they try to

17:52

convince people that those values are

17:54

shared? That's a really good question.

17:56

So I think there is definitely

17:58

always this push and pull. I

18:01

appreciate what you said about ballot measures

18:03

being a tool measures that is because

18:05

what they are. They are

18:07

not a panacea for all of

18:09

the problems that ALS, that ALS. They

18:11

are a way to policies policies that

18:13

those in power will not. for

18:15

It is a way to make

18:17

change for people we have elected to the people

18:19

that we have elected to represent us won't

18:21

do the hard things and make the changes that

18:23

need to be made. made. So often when when you're

18:25

thinking about, you know, how do know, how do we... how

18:28

do we talk to voters, what

18:30

is the messaging for a campaign. I

18:32

think I think there's always, you know,

18:34

know, there's tension between. between what does, what do

18:36

we need to do to of move

18:38

of move the movement forward? and And

18:40

what do we need to do to

18:42

get a policy passed that will that will

18:45

change in material change in people's lives. And

18:47

so about measures I think are really good tool

18:49

for the former, tool for really, you know. really,

18:51

you know, moving forward policy that makes a

18:53

difference to people. to people. And so so one

18:55

of the ways that we approach this in

18:57

campaigns is of course, is, of any

19:00

campaign, we do a lot of research, we we do

19:02

a lot of polling. research, we do a lot of but

19:04

I think what we've seen across

19:06

the board is that that, one, voters voters

19:08

do not want politicians involved

19:10

in their personal medical decisions.

19:12

And that is something that voters across

19:14

the spectrum really agree on. really

19:17

agree on. And I I think the other

19:19

thing that we do really well in these

19:21

campaigns campaigns is We are able to use.

19:24

testimonials and first person storytelling to

19:26

drive home the impacts of these

19:28

abortion And I want to give a I want

19:30

to give a big shout out

19:32

to Missouri, Action of our who's one

19:34

of our coalition partners in Missouri. they

19:36

do And they do year round

19:38

organizing work and recruitment and working working

19:40

with folks who have been impacted

19:42

by the state's ban. so that they can

19:44

get the skills and tools necessary

19:46

to go advocate for policy change. change. So

19:48

when you're, you're starting a campaign like this,

19:50

you're never really starting from scratch.

19:52

You are drawing on the experience and

19:54

the and the people power the resources of

19:56

all of these groups and all of

19:58

these individuals that that are in the

20:01

state and doing this year-round advocacy. In

20:03

Missouri, for example, this coalition that became

20:05

the Yes on Three campaign started working

20:07

on this back in 2019, trying to

20:09

come up with, okay, what does the

20:11

policy, what does the language need to

20:14

say in a ballot measure? What are

20:16

the things that we need to make

20:18

sure are in this so that when

20:20

we go do all the hard work

20:22

of getting the signatures to put it

20:25

on the ballot and then talking to

20:27

voters? we have an actual policy that

20:29

makes material change in people's lives, then

20:31

we can figure out how do we

20:33

message this? How do we connect with

20:35

the Republican and independent voters that we

20:38

know we're going to need to win

20:40

the day? Because in a state like

20:42

Missouri, you just don't win with you

20:44

know, register Democrats alone, right? That's, that

20:46

is not how we do things in

20:48

Missouri. It's not possible at this point

20:51

in time. So I think, yeah, policy

20:53

is always going to be front and

20:55

center. And then we can figure out,

20:57

hey, what are the values and what

20:59

is the messaging that we use to

21:02

communicate this? And again, I think one

21:04

of the reasons that ballot measures are,

21:06

I think an effective tool for movement

21:08

building, but are not a panacea is

21:10

that there just inevitably time constrained, right?

21:12

You know, we've got this many months

21:15

and this many weeks to collect signatures.

21:17

We've got this many months and this

21:19

many weeks to talk to voters. An

21:21

election day waits for no one. So

21:23

as we think forward to like, how

21:25

do we want to build a more

21:28

durable collision to protect X issue, whether

21:30

that is abortion rights, whether that is,

21:32

you know, humane immigration policy, whether that

21:34

is raising the minimum wage, that is

21:36

work that can start now. as we

21:38

think towards the future and what are

21:41

the kind of changes we want to

21:43

see either in states or at the

21:45

federal level. But there again are a

21:47

lot of those conversations that just proceed

21:49

any any things that people see on

21:52

the news or you know any ads

21:54

that you see if you're in a

21:56

state like Missouri that just had a

21:58

big expensive abortion ballot measure. Hey,

24:11

aren't you that PBM? Middleman. At

24:14

your service, doctor. Don't you get

24:16

rebates that save money on medicines? Oh,

24:19

PBMs like me get big rebates.

24:22

So why do patients tell me they're

24:24

worried about their costs? No

24:26

one says we have to share the savings

24:28

with patients. Congress

24:30

should make sure medicine savings go

24:33

directly to patients, not middlemen. Visit

24:35

phrma.org/middlemen to learn more.

24:38

Paid for by pharma. Well,

24:43

the messaging in these campaigns is very

24:45

important, and you allude to it a

24:48

bit. You know, in order to have

24:50

these conversations with voters across the spectrum,

24:52

you've got to start early, which you've

24:54

described. You've got to go deep, which

24:56

is part of organizing, but you also

24:58

have to speak their language. And that

25:00

can be difficult when you're trying to

25:03

have the same conversation with very different

25:05

listeners. So tell us a little bit

25:07

about your messaging and whether or not

25:09

you feel like it, you know, sidestepped

25:11

party politics successfully or if it's just

25:13

a function of ballot measures to create

25:15

the space where you get to have

25:18

the same conversation with everyone. Yeah, I

25:20

think it's a little bit of a

25:22

both and so I think There is

25:24

something inherent about ballot measures that makes

25:26

people sort of take down their partisan

25:28

walls a little bit. Of course, you

25:30

know, when people go into the ballot

25:33

box, they are bringing a lot of

25:35

baggage with them. They are bringing a

25:37

lot of life experience. They are bringing

25:39

a lot with them when they make

25:41

their decision about, you know, who am

25:43

I going to vote for for the

25:45

president or for to represent me in

25:48

the U.S. Senate. But when you give

25:50

people the opportunity to vote on an

25:52

issue, I think it does allow folks

25:54

to sort of more reflect on their

25:56

own values and experiences and sort of

25:58

put that partisanship aside, right? When you're

26:00

on. a constitutional amendment when you're voting

26:02

on a ballot measure. on a you

26:05

don't need to vote the way that

26:07

your party wants you to vote. wants can

26:09

vote. You can vote your you can

26:11

vote the way that your values

26:13

tell you to vote that your values there

26:15

is no regardless, because there is to

26:17

that ballot measure, it is

26:19

to that ballot measure. It is nonpartisan. I

26:21

do think that there that there is. Besides

26:24

the fact that there is something I think that's sort

26:26

of inherent in. think that's measures, I

26:28

think that there I think that

26:30

there is a lot of a lot of

26:32

work that these campaigns and these coalitions

26:34

do to to make sure that. making

26:36

are making those connections with voters.

26:39

So as far as like messaging

26:41

for for the yes on campaign in Missouri, Missouri,

26:43

we focused really on two things.

26:45

We focused focused on the the

26:47

devastating consequences of our state's

26:49

abortion ban. And that is

26:51

something that for a lot

26:53

of Missourians was top of mind.

26:55

Missouri Missouri was one of the

26:57

first states to ban abortion

26:59

after the Dobs decision came in

27:01

in 2022. But even before But even before

27:04

that, politicians in Missouri had passed

27:06

a lot of laws targeting

27:08

abortion providers had had pushed care

27:10

out of reach for everyone in

27:12

the state, You know, the laws laws

27:14

that we think of regulating sizes

27:16

of clinic hallways hallways or you know, medically

27:19

unnecessary exams before

27:21

medication abortion is administered,

27:24

all sorts of things like that. like But if

27:26

you're not someone that has to interact with

27:28

that part of the healthcare system, that part

27:30

you don't know. care don't know if abortion

27:32

is banned in your state or if

27:34

it's legal. banned in your early on in

27:36

our research, early on in our a lot of we

27:38

do a lot of try to talk to as

27:40

many voters as possible when we're doing that.

27:42

as But we saw that close to 45

27:44

we of voters who 45% of at some

27:47

point some their vote on their

27:49

vote on Amendment 3. believed that Missouri's

27:51

abortion law had exceptions for

27:53

survivors of rape and incest.

27:56

for of this work is just educating

27:58

voters about sort of what is the state

28:00

of abortion access. And as I

28:02

mentioned earlier, a lot of the

28:04

way that we do that is

28:07

through first person storytelling and giving

28:09

women and pregnant people the ability

28:11

to share their own experiences and

28:13

making sure voters understand. that they

28:15

have some self-interest here, right? Even

28:17

if they don't see themselves as

28:19

someone who may need access to

28:21

abortion, Missouri's abortion laws are so

28:23

out of step with their values.

28:25

They impact the ability of women

28:27

who are miscarrying to get timely

28:29

access to care. They force doctors

28:31

to wait for patients' conditions to

28:33

get worse before offering treatment. So

28:35

I think the first sort of

28:37

step is really just making sure

28:39

voters understand, hey, what is at

28:41

stake with my vote on this

28:43

question? And then the second thing

28:45

is I think really just tapping

28:48

into the shared value of not

28:50

wanting politicians in our personal business.

28:52

We want to keep politicians out

28:54

of our personal medical decisions. They

28:56

are not the best people. to

28:58

be making these decisions for women

29:00

and their families. And I think

29:02

that is something at the end

29:04

of the day that Missourians, whether

29:06

we are Democrats or Republicans or

29:08

nothing at all or somewhere in

29:10

between, can agree on that we

29:12

are the best decision makers for

29:14

the most important things in our

29:16

own lives. We are in this

29:18

moment where people are trying to

29:20

figure out where they fit in.

29:22

And one of the reasons I

29:24

was excited to talk to you

29:26

is that you've taken on a

29:29

very difficult topic in really hard

29:31

places at a time when losing

29:33

feels inevitable and you have defied

29:35

those expectations. Part

29:38

of that is that you've understood coalition building,

29:40

that you're not in this alone. Can you

29:42

talk a little bit about beyond the conversation

29:44

of abortion rights, but to the question of

29:46

hard things and hard places at difficult times,

29:49

how do you think about building those coalitions

29:51

and what strengthens you to keep doing this

29:53

work? Yeah, I think it's really important to

29:55

think about, you know, who are, are there

29:57

strange bedfellows that we can develop in these

30:00

trying times, right? Which I feel like we've

30:02

been on a series of trying times for

30:04

the past like eight years, right? It's always

30:06

some new trying thing. But I think it

30:08

has really, you know, whether it is the

30:10

first Trump administration, the COVID-19 pandemic. the things

30:13

that we are about to step into for

30:15

the next four years, I think it has

30:17

really encouraged people to sort of get outside

30:19

of their comfort zones and start having these

30:21

difficult conversations, whether it is in households, right,

30:24

between members of families, whether it is at

30:26

community meetings, right, at your neighborhood association, you

30:28

would be real surprised, the kind of conversations

30:30

that can happen. But I think those conversations

30:32

are really important, and I think it's also

30:35

important for folks to remember. that you do

30:37

not have to wait for someone's permission to

30:39

start organizing. You do not have to wait

30:41

to be asked to step up and help.

30:43

So as folks are thinking about, you know,

30:45

what am I supposed to do in this

30:48

moment? You know, maybe I'm nervous about, you

30:50

know, undocumented people in my community being deported.

30:52

I am worried about losing my access to

30:54

my health insurance, right? Like all of these

30:56

things that I think are really big concerns.

30:59

there are going to be groups and organizations

31:01

and coalitions that have been working on these

31:03

problems for a long time. And so you

31:05

don't have to do this by yourself, right?

31:07

You are not alone to figure out, oh

31:10

gosh, what is the path forward? How do

31:12

I do this? There are already organizations and

31:14

groups that are working in communities that are

31:16

serving populations that are directly impacted by the

31:18

policy that you are worried about. So I

31:20

think one of the ways that we move

31:23

forward is we just hold hands and do

31:25

this together because we have to because we

31:27

have to. And that is the only way

31:29

that we make change. So how do they

31:31

find them? How do we go and find

31:34

in our communities, I'm suddenly awakened and I'm

31:36

frustrated, I want to see something change? How

31:38

do I start to find those organizations? Do

31:40

I wait for them to find me? How

31:42

do I find the folks who can help

31:45

me, you know, become my own version of

31:47

Rachel Sweet? Well, I don't want to say

31:49

Google it, but like I think you can

31:51

also kind of like look around, you know,

31:53

is there somebody you know that, you know,

31:55

is always that person that's like posting about

31:58

stuff that's going on on Facebook, you know,

32:00

I feel like everybody's got a friend that's

32:02

like, oh, they're always posting some interesting, some

32:04

interesting article or you know, they're, you know,

32:06

went to a city council meeting the other

32:09

day, and I don't even know when the

32:11

city council meetings are. Look for those people

32:13

in your network that maybe can help you

32:15

get connected. I think that there is more

32:17

and more organizing going on online these days,

32:20

which I think is great. And a lot

32:22

of it is maybe not even perceived as

32:24

organizing by the people that are doing it.

32:26

I think about, you know, my mom is

32:28

a big, big Facebook user and she's somebody

32:30

who's like pretty, she watches the news, she's

32:33

like pretty plugged in. But, you know, it's

32:35

interesting to see how there is, you know,

32:37

organizing that can go on in a Facebook

32:39

group that you joined to try and meet

32:41

like-minded people, right? I think that our activism

32:44

and our organizing cannot live solely on online

32:46

spaces, but I think that's a really good

32:48

and safe place for a lot of people

32:50

to start. And I would just think about

32:52

whatever your issue is, looking up, you know,

32:54

what is the group that is doing this

32:57

work? How do I get plugged in? And

32:59

sometimes that may require pushing yourself outside of

33:01

your comfort zone, right? Everybody has always. you

33:03

know, knocked a door or made a phone

33:05

call or wrote a letter to an elected

33:08

official for the first time. And it gets

33:10

way easier the second, third, fourth, fifth time

33:12

you do it. So I think, yeah, we

33:14

look for the helpers and then we try

33:16

to be the helpers, right? You know, in

33:19

Missouri, we had over 1900 volunteers that were

33:21

collecting signatures with us in multiple congressional districts

33:23

across the state, including in more rural areas,

33:25

more conserving. And for a

33:27

lot of those folks,

33:29

it was really the

33:32

first time that they

33:34

had gotten involved in

33:36

a political campaign. They

33:38

were really genuinely motivated

33:40

by this particular issue.

33:43

So if that is,

33:45

if that is you,

33:47

that is okay. They're,

33:49

you know, collecting signatures

33:51

to get something on

33:54

the ballot is a

33:56

really good place to

33:58

start. There is an

34:00

infrastructure for funding and

34:02

supporting this work. part

34:04

of the reason that

34:07

exists is because in

34:09

states like Missouri, it

34:11

is, it is challenging

34:13

to elect candidates who

34:15

support, you know, our

34:18

values and our issues.

34:20

So we need to

34:22

use the people's tool

34:24

of direct democracy to

34:26

make change happen. And

34:29

I think, you know,

34:31

before you dive into

34:33

about measure campaign, I

34:35

think you also need

34:37

to evaluate is this

34:39

the best tool to

34:42

do what I want

34:44

to see happen, right?

34:46

Changing the Missouri Constitution

34:48

isn't necessarily the best

34:50

tool to solve every

34:53

single problem. Hey,

34:59

aren't you that PBM? Middleman. At

35:02

your service, doctor. Don't you get

35:04

rebates that save money on medicines? Oh,

35:07

PBMs like me get big rebates.

35:10

So why do patients tell me they're

35:12

worried about their costs? No

35:14

one says we have to share the savings

35:16

with patients. Congress

35:18

should make sure medicine savings go

35:20

directly to patients, not middlemen. Visit

35:23

phrma.org/middlemen to learn more.

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at americanexpress.com/with Amex. You

36:17

mentioned state legislators, I and you

36:19

and I both at worked at state

36:21

capitals. been one of been one of the people you have

36:23

to talk to. You've been one of the people. of the I look

36:25

forward to saying to saying hi to. So you've got

36:27

got you've got state

36:29

legislators. When

36:31

you think about ballot initiatives,

36:34

are they? enemies? Are they Are they

36:36

friends? Are you agnostic? navigate? do

36:38

you navigate and to your point? Sometimes

36:41

is the initiative. nuclear option.

36:43

How do you think about the role of How

36:45

do you think about the role of

36:47

state legislators and you get to a you get to a

36:49

ballot initiative as as a part of that process. Yeah,

36:52

well, I Well, I definitely don't think that

36:54

they should be enemies, but I think

36:56

what we've seen in states like Missouri

36:58

and in states like Ohio in states that

37:01

is that often officials do see ballot

37:03

measures as sort of being the

37:05

enemy. You know, I think know, I think

37:07

what happened last year in Ohio

37:09

is a really good example. in

37:11

August, you know, legislators in in Ohio put

37:13

a measure on the ballot

37:16

to try and raise the threshold

37:18

for ballot measures to require

37:20

60 % of votes of a

37:22

simple majority of 50 failed enormously. And

37:24

that failed enormously. And it

37:26

failed enormously because of a... campaign.

37:29

And well that campaign. And again, that

37:31

same coalition building that helps us pass

37:33

good policies also also help us stop

37:35

bad policies. But it it also happened

37:37

because voters don't like giving their rights

37:39

away. rights away. we don't typically want to

37:41

vote away our own rights and

37:43

our own ability to enact change.

37:45

So while I I don't think the valid initiative

37:48

process process of state the workings

37:50

of state odds should be at odds

37:52

with one another. Sometimes to make to

37:54

make them at odds and make

37:56

it seem like people having this

37:58

tool and this ability to direct as

38:01

a threat to their power when it

38:03

really doesn't have to be. So I

38:05

think in a lot of ways when

38:07

you have about measure campaign in a

38:09

state like Missouri, that is something that

38:11

once it is passed can then be

38:14

used as a tool to help lobby

38:16

legislators and to help sort of you

38:18

know, either stop bad bills or move

38:20

good bills forward because now you have

38:22

a really significant proof point to say,

38:24

hey, the voters in our state and

38:26

specifically, you know, we can look here

38:29

and say the voters in your district

38:31

are very supportive of this. Here's how

38:33

they voted on amendment three or here's

38:35

how they voted on prop A to

38:37

raise the minimum wage. But yeah, it

38:39

is not necessarily, you know, it is

38:42

often a tool of necessity because elected

38:44

officials won't do the things that the

38:46

people are demanding. In some states, that's

38:48

not the case, right? In some states,

38:50

you know, one of your first lines

38:52

of defense would, you would want to

38:54

lobby your elected officials, you would want

38:57

to, you know, organize people around an

38:59

issue. And as somebody who worked in

39:01

a state legislature, let me tell you.

39:04

Elected officials are much more interested in

39:06

talking to people who live in their

39:08

district than they were ever interested in

39:11

speaking to me, somebody who is paid

39:13

to work for an organization, right? So

39:15

like, citizen lobbying matters. It does make

39:17

a difference. And just to follow up

39:20

on that, I mean, you referenced the

39:22

60% threshold that Ohio tried to pass.

39:24

Florida, of course, made it 60%, in

39:27

part in response to the very successful

39:29

amendment four, that re-enfranchised formerly incarcerated persons.

39:31

And so in response to the success

39:33

of that ballot initiative, this past year,

39:36

unfortunately, the abortion ballot initiative failed because

39:38

they made the threshold 60%, I think

39:40

they got 57. Mississippi, a state where

39:43

they were sued on the issue of

39:45

education and where a valid initiative was

39:47

brought forward. They have now suspended essentially

39:49

the use of valid initiatives. When you

39:52

think about that you afraid that valid

39:54

initiatives are going to cease to be

39:56

an effective tool? Or are you anticipating

39:58

that and what do we do next?

40:01

So I think that we should absolutely

40:03

anticipate seeing more attacks on the initiative

40:05

petition process in states that have it,

40:08

right? Because it is not a tool

40:10

that is universally available and it is,

40:12

you know, again, one of the reasons

40:14

it's not a panacea is because not

40:17

every state has access to this tool

40:19

in the first place. but in places

40:21

like Florida, like Ohio, like Missouri, where

40:24

it has been used really effectively to

40:26

move forward progressive policies, politicians are hell-bent

40:28

on getting rid of the process or

40:30

making it, you know, in the case

40:33

of Florida, really extremely challenging, if not

40:35

impossible, to hit this really high 60%

40:37

threshold. So I think when it comes

40:40

to the future of ballot measures, we

40:42

need to do everything that we can

40:44

to fight for. and defend and protect

40:46

this tool. And if you want to

40:49

talk about Strange Bedfellows, that is absolutely

40:51

the case if you think about, you

40:53

know, initiative petition defense, right? Because lots

40:56

of organizations and lots of groups and

40:58

lots of individuals can use this tool,

41:00

right? It is not just a tool

41:02

that can be used for progressive change,

41:05

right? It can also be used to

41:07

enact more conservative policies. It is the

41:09

people's tool. It is access to direct

41:11

democracy. And that is something that I

41:14

think we should also be willing to

41:16

team up with folks who may not

41:18

agree with us on everything in order

41:21

to preserve this tool that really benefits

41:23

everybody. Well, you mentioned that half the

41:25

states almost do not have direct democracy.

41:27

You've got Montana, Wisconsin, New York, New

41:30

Hampshire, Pennsylvania, Texas, the Carolinas, Alabama, and

41:32

my home state of Georgia. Those are

41:34

places that have said direct democracy, you

41:37

are not welcome here, or at least

41:39

have not been pushed to make it

41:41

so. But you've also talked about the

41:43

importance of organizing and citizen engagement. What's

41:46

your advice? those who don't have the

41:48

tool of ballot initiatives but can use

41:50

the tactics. I'm going to put you

41:53

on the spot. What should those folks

41:55

who have issues that matter to them?

41:57

As someone who's been at the state

41:59

capital and who has been around these

42:02

hard issues and hard places, what do

42:04

you talk to, what do you say

42:06

to those folks? I think that's a

42:08

great question. And I think when we

42:11

think about organizing, it's always really important

42:13

to identify a target, right? Like what

42:15

is the target and what is the

42:18

tactic? And I think often the target

42:20

is those in elected office, it is

42:22

people in power. And sometimes when you

42:24

work in a place like Missouri, that

42:27

can get really exhausting because oftentimes the

42:29

composition of your state legislature, the person

42:31

that holds a governor's office, they don't

42:34

change that much and they don't always

42:36

necessarily change in the ways that you

42:38

would like. So what I would really

42:40

encourage is for folks to start thinking

42:43

outside of organizing as just a tool

42:45

to sort of change minds of elected

42:47

officials, right? There is a lot more

42:50

that can be done. in organizing work

42:52

than just, you know, targeting, hey, we

42:54

need this legislator to filibuster this bill

42:56

or to vote this way or, you

42:59

know, we need to get a bunch

43:01

of people to a town hall meeting.

43:03

Those things are important. Those things matter.

43:06

But I think now more than ever,

43:08

as we head into the next four

43:10

years, we are going to need community-driven

43:12

solutions to community problems. I've been thinking,

43:15

you know, sort of, now that I'm

43:17

not working on a campaign right now,

43:19

what is my role? You know, what

43:21

are the things that I want to

43:24

get involved in? And I've been looking

43:26

at, you know, what are the ways

43:28

that I can sort of like help

43:31

out, you know, going to my neighborhood

43:33

association meetings, go to your school board

43:35

meeting. You know, there are, the closer

43:37

that elected officials are to problems, the

43:40

much more likely they are to be

43:42

responsive to you. you know there are

43:44

plenty of issues that can be addressed.

43:47

in your local community by really starting

43:49

with the officials that are closest to

43:51

the grassroots. And beyond that, I think

43:53

that there are a lot of things

43:56

that we can do to just be

43:58

making sure that we're taking care of

44:00

people in our communities, right? What are

44:03

the needs that my community has? You

44:05

know, I mentioned earlier, you know, these

44:07

concerns and these fears that I think

44:09

are very valid that people have about,

44:12

you know, targeting undocumented immigrants. things like

44:14

that. You know, what are the organizations

44:16

that are already helping Americans who are

44:18

new to this country to, you know,

44:21

sort of get assimilated, get, you know,

44:23

language skills that they might need to

44:25

effectively get a job, things like that.

44:28

You know, there's a lot more that

44:30

can be done than just trying to

44:32

target elected officials to do the things

44:34

we'd like them to do. That is

44:37

very important, but that is also oftentimes

44:39

a really long road to help, right?

44:41

It can take, you know, five, ten,

44:44

fifteen years to try and change the

44:46

makeup of your state legislature, but there

44:48

are people in your community that need

44:50

help today. So I think, you know,

44:53

the closer we can get to the

44:55

people in our communities, the more that

44:57

we can get to know our neighbors,

45:00

the more that we can identify these

45:02

issues and come up with solutions that

45:04

do not involve people that are in

45:06

power, the better off we're going to

45:09

be. And I think there are ways

45:11

to do that. And we just got

45:13

to look around. And again, if somebody's

45:16

not doing it, guess what? That's a

45:18

great assignment for you. to my new

45:20

friend Rachel Sweet, a fiercely kind, polite

45:22

Midwesterner. You are invited back any time

45:25

to tell us what to do and

45:27

how to get it done. Rachel Sweet,

45:29

thank you so much for being on

45:31

Assembly required today. Thank you so much

45:34

for having me. It was a treat

45:36

and a huge honor to be here.

45:40

Each week we want to leave the

45:42

audience with an opportunity to make a

45:45

difference and a way to get involved

45:47

or just get started on working out

45:49

a solution where you live. In a

45:51

segment we like to call our toolkit.

45:54

At Assembly required we encourage the audience

45:56

to be curious, solve problems, and do

45:58

good. As Rachel just shared us. One

46:00

of our first jobs is to be

46:03

curious. So learn where your state stands

46:05

on ballot initiatives and what you can

46:07

do to organize with others who want

46:09

to use that tool. With the Ballot

46:12

Initiative Strategy Center at ballot.org you can

46:14

find out if you're in one of

46:16

those states and what you need to

46:18

do next. But she also encouraged us

46:21

to solve problems. Even if you live

46:23

in a state without a ballot initiative,

46:25

you can still be part of the

46:27

legislative process and part of the change

46:30

process. I would encourage you to go

46:32

to indivisible.org. Indivisible has a guide that's

46:34

about how you can do work you

46:36

want to do where you are right

46:39

now. And lastly, doing good. Keep searching

46:41

for the thing that you do best,

46:43

that you can contribute to your community,

46:45

no matter how small it is or

46:48

how small it feels. Remember what we've

46:50

been saying with our guest. You have

46:52

something you do well, whether it's organizing

46:54

conversations with your neighbors, through a book

46:57

club, or educating your family members about

46:59

how decisions are made at the federal

47:01

or state level, how they affect their

47:03

lives. You can be part of that

47:06

solution. But also remember that listening and

47:08

supporting your local news outlets can also

47:10

help make change because not everything happens

47:12

in DC. A lot of it happens

47:15

closer to home. So do good and

47:17

keep doing it. Every week

47:19

here, the team at Assembly required

47:21

has been combing through your emails,

47:23

which have been very kind, the

47:26

personal essays and the questions that

47:28

you've been sending us. And I'd

47:30

like to address a few listener

47:32

questions now. From Rebecca Whitman, if

47:34

something like Rovey Wade can be

47:36

overturned and Republicans are threatening to

47:38

do away with the ACA, then

47:40

what does that mean for something

47:43

like the Americans with Disabilities Act?

47:45

Rebecca, thank you so much for

47:47

this question. I want to tell

47:49

folks to keep in mind that

47:51

when we hear about attacks on

47:53

DEI, diversity, equity, and inclusion, that

47:55

includes things like the Americans with

47:58

Disabilities Act. Those are one of

48:00

the protected classes that diverse and

48:02

inclusion actually protect. And the reality

48:04

is as we have discovered again

48:06

with the Dobbs decision in Roe

48:08

v. Wade with the erosion of

48:10

the Voting Rights Act, federal protections

48:13

can be overturned or weakened. We

48:15

know that some companies have

48:17

actually expressed irritation with complying

48:20

with accessibility requirements. So that

48:22

means the ADA is not

48:24

immune. Another aspect is that

48:26

the Chevron deference decision from

48:28

the Supreme Court earlier this

48:30

year may also have an

48:32

impact because much of the

48:34

Americans with Disabilities Act is

48:36

subject to regulatory interpretation. What

48:38

that means is that instead

48:40

of saying do this and

48:42

that and the other specifically

48:44

in the statute, the statute

48:46

said here are all of

48:49

these agencies and they need

48:51

to interpret what has to

48:53

be done because the world

48:55

doesn't remain static. What that

48:57

means is that the federal

48:59

government may now decide that

49:01

it doesn't want to enforce

49:03

components of the ADA, and

49:05

that means they can weaken

49:07

it without ever having to

49:09

overturn it. However, as the

49:11

conversation with Rachel pointed out,

49:13

we have other options. For

49:16

example, states can still provide

49:18

protections. Remember that even if

49:20

the federal government doesn't protect

49:22

it, if they overturn something,

49:24

unless they forbid actions, states

49:26

can still take steps to

49:28

strengthen laws, including laws protecting

49:30

the disabled. So our job

49:32

is to understand that yes,

49:34

there is a threat, and

49:36

yes, there are challenges, but

49:38

we still have a way

49:40

to respond. Nancy Collins asked.

49:42

So, how do you find

49:45

the strength to keep doing

49:47

what you do? To build

49:49

a coalition, to lead with

49:51

compassion instead of reacting in

49:53

anger? Okay, Nancy, I get

49:55

angry. And let me be

49:57

clear, anger is valid. So

49:59

is despair. But neither can

50:01

be your leading emotion. your

50:03

permanent condition. Compassion requires that

50:05

we understand not only those

50:07

who are impacted, but what

50:09

might be driving someone to

50:12

take the steps to create

50:14

harm. So compassion isn't just

50:16

for us. It's also about

50:18

how we understand those we

50:20

are opposing. I'm always galvanized

50:22

by determination. I take action

50:24

and I don't stop because

50:26

I'm determined to make things

50:28

better because I know what

50:30

it feels like when things

50:32

are wrong. But I'm always

50:34

informed by compassion. Compassion meaning

50:36

what's the impact of the

50:38

harm, but also what is

50:41

gnawing at another person that

50:43

would make them do something

50:45

that feels mean and petty

50:47

and small? And that compassion

50:49

helps me understand what I

50:51

need to do. to

50:53

push back. And that's a strength.

50:55

Being able to navigate that, to

50:57

push back, and to not be

50:59

overwhelmed, is a strength we all

51:01

hold. We just have to find

51:03

it. And you mentioned coalitions.

51:06

I like having friends with me,

51:08

especially when I try to do

51:10

something hard. That's what a coalition

51:12

is. And coalitions don't always have

51:14

to agree about the core idea.

51:16

They have to agree on the

51:18

core intent. So we don't have

51:20

to come together for the same

51:22

reason. But we all have to

51:24

have the same outcome in mind.

51:27

And as long as we can

51:29

do that, coalitions hold. And their

51:31

strength always in those numbers. Okay.

51:33

So if you want to tell

51:35

us what you've learned and solved

51:37

and solved. or what you're thinking,

51:39

send us an email at Assembly

51:41

Required at crooked.com. Or leave us

51:43

a voicemail. And you and your

51:45

questions and comments might be featured

51:47

on the pod. Our number is

51:49

213-293-9-509. That wraps up this episode

51:52

of Assembly Required with Stacey Abrams.

51:54

Meet you here next week. Assembly

52:05

required with Stacey Abrams is a crooked

52:07

media production. Our show producer

52:10

is is Alona Minkovsky our

52:12

associate producer is is

52:14

Velasco. Kiro our video

52:17

producer. This episode was

52:19

recorded and mixed by Evan

52:21

Sutton. Our theme song

52:23

is by is by Vasilis Thank

52:25

you to Matt you to Matt

52:27

Kyle Kyle Seglin, Tyler and and Slosberg for

52:29

production support. Our executive

52:31

producers are are Katie Long, Madeline and

52:33

producers me, and me, Abrams. Hey,

52:53

aren't you that PBM? Middleman. At

52:56

your service, doctor. Don't you get

52:58

rebates that save money on medicines? Oh,

53:01

PBMs like me get big rebates.

53:03

So why do patients tell me they're

53:06

worried about their costs? No

53:08

one says we have to share the savings

53:10

with patients. Congress

53:12

should make sure medicine savings go

53:14

directly to patients, not middlemen. Visit

53:17

phrma.org/middlemen to learn more.

53:19

Paid for pharma. by pharma.