0:01

Welcome to Attachment Theory in Action,

0:03

a bi-weekly podcast brought to you

0:05

by the Knowledge Center at Chadock.

0:08

Join our host, Kirstie Nolan, as

0:10

she dives into the world of

0:12

attachment theory and trauma with

0:15

field experts from across the

0:17

nation. Hi everybody, and welcome

0:19

to today's episode of Attachment

0:21

Theory in Action. Today I

0:23

am excited to welcome Dr.

0:25

Nema Romani. He is a

0:28

leading expert in Shadowwork, Emotion

0:30

Regulation. and healing attachment wounds.

0:32

After a successful career as

0:34

a chiropractor, he left the

0:36

profession to dive deep into

0:38

the realm of trauma healing

0:40

and relationship transformation, driven by

0:42

his own journey of overcoming

0:44

toxic patterns and becoming trigger-proof,

0:47

Dr. Nemo now helps high

0:49

achievers, parents and professionals break

0:51

free from the cycles of

0:53

codependency and self-abandonment. Hey

0:55

listeners, we're taking a quick pause to

0:58

share something exciting. Our email subscribers are

1:00

getting all the good stuff. Not only

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are they the first to know when

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send them bonus resources, freebies and more

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straight to their inbox. Don't miss out.

1:11

Click the link in the description to

1:14

sign up. Well,

1:16

hi to all my attachment theory

1:19

in action podcast listeners. I

1:21

am so excited for you

1:23

to join me today on

1:25

the podcast I have got

1:27

Dr. Nima Romani Nima, thank

1:29

you so much for joining

1:31

us I'm really excited to

1:33

Not only hear about your

1:35

personal journey and you know

1:37

the experiences and the story

1:39

that you have with learning

1:41

about attachment and you know

1:43

what it's meant for you

1:45

as an individual but also

1:47

learning about how it's kind

1:49

of shifted your your role

1:51

and you know you've gone

1:53

from being a chiropractor to

1:55

now kind of this movement

1:57

of sharing about your own

1:59

story. how those parts

2:01

of your life have become

2:03

connected and how you're using

2:06

all of that information to

2:08

kind of support others who

2:10

are going through that journey

2:12

of healing from trauma and

2:14

understanding their own attachment relationships.

2:17

So welcome. Thank you. Kirsty,

2:19

it's great to be in

2:21

communication and having this conversation.

2:23

I'm excited. So my guest

2:25

knows that I always kind

2:28

of start my episodes with

2:30

a very similar question. Obviously

2:32

attachment is something that develops

2:34

from very early on in

2:36

life and impacts us throughout

2:38

life. And so I like

2:40

to ask my guests, you

2:42

know, was there anything in

2:44

your early life that you

2:46

feel has kind of driven

2:48

you towards the work that

2:51

you're doing today? Wow. Where

2:53

do we begin? Was there

2:55

anything that went through my

2:57

life? It all began for

2:59

me with a breakup. Here

3:01

I am working as a

3:03

chiropractor, helping people with stress-related

3:05

issues, going through a divorce,

3:07

and several kind of failed

3:09

relationships leading up to one

3:11

that was so volatile with

3:14

this push-up. and pull dynamic

3:16

that I really had to

3:18

understand how can somebody who's

3:20

intelligent, who helps a lot

3:22

of people, who can really

3:24

has a gift for being

3:26

able to help people heal

3:28

and see through their blind

3:30

spots, how could I be

3:32

so blind in my own

3:34

relational dynamic where I am

3:37

reacting and behaving in ways

3:39

that I That shocked me

3:41

afterwards, right? And so it

3:43

wasn't until things became volatile

3:45

in my last relationship and

3:47

actually a... We were abusive

3:49

to each other. I became

3:51

physically abusive to the point

3:53

where I had to kind

3:55

of break free and just

3:57

pause and go, what the

4:00

heck's going on here? And

4:02

I discovered about attachment theory,

4:04

and I discovered that in

4:06

a breathwork session. while I

4:08

was in my healing journey,

4:10

the experience of two specific

4:12

events, the experience of being

4:14

a twin and having my,

4:16

and having my brother be

4:18

born before me, and at

4:20

the age of two being

4:23

separated from my mother, memories

4:25

that I don't even have

4:27

that I didn't remember, where

4:29

in that moment. I became

4:31

aware that that was a

4:33

pain that was stored in

4:35

my nervous system, and unconsciously,

4:37

after that breathwork session was

4:39

done, I was like, oh

4:41

my gosh, that really explains

4:43

the choices that I made

4:46

in my relational dynamic. So

4:48

it just set me on

4:50

a journey to repair with

4:52

those parts of me that

4:54

I had abandoned a long

4:56

time ago, and now my

4:58

mess has become my message.

5:00

I mean, I love, I

5:02

mean, I love that say,

5:04

that quote, that saying, however

5:06

you want to put it,

5:09

my mess has become my

5:11

message. You know, I want

5:13

to, first of all, thank

5:15

you for just being vulnerable

5:17

and open and honest. You

5:19

know, I think that there

5:21

aren't a lot of people

5:23

that are able to own

5:25

being physically abusive to somebody

5:27

else. And that's not what

5:29

we're going to focus on

5:32

in this podcast, but I

5:34

think it would be. foolish

5:36

if we didn't acknowledge that,

5:38

you know, it's one thing

5:40

to have these struggles and

5:42

challenges, but it's another to

5:44

actually stand up and say,

5:46

I need to do something

5:48

different. Like, this is not

5:50

okay, the choices that I'm

5:52

making. And, you know, whether

5:55

or not... somebody else is

5:57

a cause of that or

5:59

a trigger, you know, and

6:01

so it takes a huge

6:03

amount of vulnerability to say,

6:05

I'm owning that I'm doing

6:07

something. Yeah, I'm taking care

6:09

of my side of the

6:11

street of this, right? I

6:13

mean, there's always a dynamic

6:15

involved and when I came

6:18

out with this and I've

6:20

been. teaching about it, people

6:22

come to me and go,

6:24

wow, I've been there too,

6:26

right, on either side of

6:28

the fence, and I really

6:30

wanted to heal that. And

6:32

so it really, when we

6:34

go through the healing journey,

6:36

Kirstie, we really have to

6:39

get out of the conversation

6:41

of fault and blame, because

6:43

during attachment, during trauma bonding,

6:45

during healing from codependency, there's

6:47

always this. this experience of

6:49

shaming and blaming. And as

6:51

you go higher up in

6:53

that frequency of healing and

6:55

getting into love, getting into

6:57

understanding, you realize there's nobody

6:59

to really blame because this

7:02

is an intergenerational thing that

7:04

we are born into, that

7:06

we learn, we're conditioned to

7:08

do, and so the work

7:10

becomes to decondition the whole

7:12

conversation of fault and blame.

7:14

I mean, I love that

7:16

because I think when we

7:18

get stuck in those patterns

7:20

of fault and blame, we,

7:22

I mean, what I just

7:25

said, we get stuck there.

7:27

We don't ever move beyond

7:29

that. There's no healing. There's

7:31

no growth. There's no progression.

7:33

There's no change that happens.

7:35

So I really appreciate that.

7:37

Yeah. And now I've lost

7:39

my train of thought. I

7:41

do think that it's incredibly

7:43

powerful though to be able

7:45

to say, you know, I

7:48

take accountability for myself and

7:50

my side. How do you

7:52

say my side of the

7:54

street? Yeah, totally. Totally. I

7:56

wanted to touch a little

7:58

bit more about, you know,

8:00

your ex acknowledgement and recognition

8:02

that what has... when you

8:04

were younger, when you were

8:06

separated from your twin? Like

8:08

tell me, tell us a

8:11

little bit more about that

8:13

and how you kind of

8:15

delved into that more and

8:17

how you reached a point

8:19

of realization with that. Well,

8:21

I realized, and it wasn't

8:23

conscious, and what I learned

8:25

was that most of the

8:27

traumas that we experienced, the

8:29

two things is If it

8:31

happens before you, we have

8:34

the language to describe it,

8:36

then these talk therapies, they're

8:38

not really addressing it. That's

8:40

why people will do therapy

8:42

for 20, 30, 40 years,

8:44

talking, and they're not getting

8:46

to the root of it,

8:48

is because what happens when

8:50

these traumas happened before. you

8:52

have the language to even

8:54

describe it. And I want

8:57

to define trauma as not

8:59

what happened to us, but

9:01

what happens inside of us

9:03

in the absence of a

9:05

really safe and empathetic witness

9:07

to process and move through

9:09

all of that energy to

9:11

alchemize it. And without that

9:13

gets stuck in our nervous

9:15

systems. And so childbirth and

9:17

the age of two, I

9:20

have no memory of it.

9:22

But what happens is that

9:24

separation, and here's the other

9:26

thing I wanted to share

9:28

is separation is also all

9:30

trauma is separation trauma. All

9:32

trauma is actually separation. It's

9:34

a separation from ourselves. And

9:36

in those moments when mom

9:38

wasn't there or. I was

9:40

separated from my twin and

9:43

my mother for months while

9:45

they were, my mom was

9:47

kind of exploring emigrating to

9:49

Canada from Iran at the

9:51

time it was a really

9:53

stressful period in Iranian history.

9:55

In that moment I separated

9:57

from myself and I went

9:59

looking for kind of there

10:01

was this resentment that that

10:03

occurred with the feminine this

10:06

deep need to be seen

10:08

by my mother while at

10:10

the same time a resentment

10:12

towards the feminine so here I

10:14

am that is in living in

10:16

my body and that unconsciously

10:18

starts to inform the types

10:21

of partners that I choose

10:23

that it informs that okay

10:25

I'm going to choose a

10:27

partner that I know that

10:29

will not trigger that abandonment

10:31

wound. So I would kind of

10:33

choose partners. I would become

10:35

more of an avoidant because

10:38

I was afraid of that

10:40

feeling of abandonment. So I

10:42

would choose partners where I

10:44

wasn't afraid of losing them.

10:46

There was kind of like a, there

10:48

was an imbalance in kind of

10:50

empowerment where I wouldn't choose

10:52

people that I was afraid

10:54

of losing. I would. choose

10:56

people that I knew that

10:58

I had no fear in

11:00

losing and I played this

11:03

role of kind of the

11:05

the distancer and I would

11:07

constantly attract type of partners

11:09

that were more pursuer types

11:11

which helped that I didn't have

11:13

to deal with that abandonment wound.

11:15

But that unconsciously was the frustration

11:17

that was part of the push-pull

11:20

dynamics in all of my relational

11:22

relationships from my marriage to the

11:24

several failed relationships. And it wasn't

11:26

until that trauma-bonded relationship that woke

11:29

me up and said, all right,

11:31

this has become so toxic, it's

11:33

never gotten to this point. It

11:35

had never happened before, to this

11:37

degree. What is it that I'm

11:40

missing? And that's when I started

11:42

to understand that somatically these wounds

11:44

are carried in our bodies and

11:46

they show up in our triggers.

11:49

It's during when we get triggered,

11:51

you can do all the therapy

11:53

in the world, but if you

11:55

don't get training on how to

11:58

expand that space between stimuli. response

12:00

and fill the cracks in

12:02

the floorboards, you're constantly reacting

12:04

from that two-year-old self. And

12:07

so that's how I put

12:09

it all together and I

12:11

created a methodology called becoming

12:13

trigger-proof. Which I want to talk

12:15

about in just a minute. One

12:18

of the things I want to

12:20

highlight and you know many of

12:22

our listeners are experienced in this

12:24

field, but I kind of want

12:26

to... I want to simplify what you're saying

12:29

a little bit and say, this is

12:31

what we mean when we talk to

12:33

parents or caregivers about helping children

12:35

process their feelings and like labelling

12:38

feelings and recognizing what's going on

12:40

in their body during that time.

12:42

You said, you know, it's trauma

12:45

really is that semantic experiences, what's

12:47

going on inside of us. It's

12:49

not what happens to us. It's

12:52

what's going on inside. It's what's

12:54

what's going on inside inside. And

12:56

then we have to process it

12:59

in that context of a safe,

13:01

empathic, responsive relationship. And so

13:03

I just I want to

13:05

highlight that to people who are

13:07

maybe like unsure about this. This

13:10

is why we help children process

13:12

what's going on. So they don't

13:14

stay stuck there. you know and

13:16

I've talked to a number of

13:19

different guests who say you know

13:21

the same thing like I was

13:23

alone in my trauma whatever that

13:25

trauma was and I had nobody

13:27

to help me understand like okay

13:30

what you're feeling is normal and

13:32

your body feels a certain way

13:34

and it's storing this energy and

13:36

here let's process it together like

13:38

first of all do the body

13:40

piece but then when we're out of

13:43

our back brain when we're not in

13:45

that trauma mind, then I can help

13:47

you understand like the logical pieces to

13:49

it. And obviously with children we can't

13:51

do that right away because their brains

13:53

aren't fully developed. But as you said

13:55

if we don't start that process then

13:57

it just it continued right into

13:59

your life. Yeah, this is where

14:01

it begins. It's that when a

14:04

child has this overwhelm of sensation

14:06

through their emotional body in an

14:09

ideal world, the parent is going

14:11

to sit down and is regulated

14:13

and is able to bring them

14:16

from activation into safety. But let's

14:18

say there was an argument or

14:20

there was a reaction from a

14:23

parent and the child is sitting

14:25

there alone or in a timeout

14:28

having to deal with these overwhelming

14:30

emotions. What happens is the child

14:32

doesn't say, hmm, my parents are

14:35

just overly reactive, that's on them,

14:37

I'm good. They don't, they don't

14:39

make that conclusion. The child inside

14:42

of all of us cannot live

14:44

with the notion that the parents

14:47

are malevolent or bad. They, they

14:49

deduce that Because this happened, I

14:51

can't live with the idea that

14:54

my parents are the bad ones

14:56

and I'm the good one because

14:58

that's not safe. It must mean

15:01

that I'm bad and they're good.

15:03

And so what we do as

15:05

children is we abandon ourselves for

15:08

the sake of that connection because...

15:10

It must be that I'm the

15:13

bad one. And so by abandoning

15:15

myself and hating on myself, I

15:17

can then warrant connection with my

15:20

caregivers. And that little wiring of

15:22

self-betrayal and self-abandonment for the sake

15:24

of self-protection as a child turns

15:27

into complex trauma. the imposter syndrome,

15:29

not ever feeling like you're good

15:32

enough, judging every time you have

15:34

an emotion, suppressing your emotions, because

15:36

it creates this dysfunctional relationship with

15:39

the self, and I've been spending

15:41

my entire second half of my

15:43

journey on this planet. rewiring that

15:46

and repairing that relationship with myself.

15:48

So it causes the trauma causes

15:51

separation from self and that's what

15:53

the work is all about. So

15:55

I guess tell us a little

15:58

bit more about your journey of

16:00

healing and then we'll dive into

16:02

a couple of the other questions

16:05

that we have. So you know

16:07

how how have you Healed I

16:10

mean you're I'm certain that you're

16:12

probably still healing you're going to

16:14

be on this journey for a

16:17

long time But what helped you

16:19

start that healing process after this

16:21

realization that you had? It's a

16:24

fantasy to use the word healed

16:26

in the past tense And I'm

16:28

very very clear with that my

16:31

clients and students and this whole

16:33

notion, this fantasy, that one day

16:36

I'll be healed, oh, when I

16:38

heal my attachment wounds. And we

16:40

don't get to that place of

16:43

healed in the past. What it

16:45

is is we develop the skill

16:47

to work with whatever arises. And

16:50

so that... began for me after

16:52

that relationship ended and I was

16:55

kind of in a dorsal freeze.

16:57

I started to learn about the

16:59

nervous system. I started training in

17:02

somatic experiencing, understanding the polyvegal theory

17:04

and the various states of my

17:06

nervous system and realized that the

17:09

majority of my life I was

17:11

using personal development, therapy, anger management,

17:14

all of these things as a

17:16

covert form of invalidating my emotions.

17:18

Once I learned the polyvegal theory,

17:21

I realized that most personal development

17:23

things that we do, most therapies,

17:25

are an unconscious way to make

17:28

parts of us wrong. And so

17:30

I realized, I was like, wow.

17:33

And so once I learned, it

17:35

was the polyvegal theory was my

17:37

access point to self-love. Because once

17:40

I understood the various states of

17:42

my nervous system, how my thoughts

17:44

were, how my thoughts... are aligned

17:47

with my state. rather than trying

17:49

to change my state by changing

17:51

my thinking, I realize part of

17:54

my journey whether I realize that

17:56

I was trying to think my

17:59

way out of feeling problems. I

18:01

was trying to use modalities to

18:03

try to stop feeling and I

18:06

realize the biggest shift was it's

18:08

not about feeling better at feeling

18:10

all of my shame, my anger,

18:13

my guilt, my guilt, like... changing

18:15

my relationship to emotions themselves, expanding

18:18

my capacity to contain sensations in

18:20

the body, stored sensations, and work

18:22

through them and get more vulnerable

18:25

with, you know, allowing and surrendering

18:27

to my emotions. And really, this

18:29

is where I, you know, I...

18:32

lead people through is you're in

18:34

a trauma bond, you're stuck in

18:37

a should I stay or go

18:39

dynamic 100 times out of 100,

18:41

you are, you have a dysfunctional

18:44

relationship with your own emotions and

18:46

you're with somebody with the exact

18:48

same thing going on. So I

18:51

started to understand the language of

18:53

somatics, I started to understand the

18:55

polyvegal theory and the concept of

18:58

enmeshment, the concept of not... having

19:00

a boundary between my emotion and

19:03

my partners and realizing that whatever

19:05

she was feeling, I was bleeding

19:07

that into myself. And then I

19:10

started to understand the fond response.

19:12

Fawning is basically. kind of like

19:14

reflexive program condition people pleasing where

19:17

you abandon yourself for the sake

19:19

of attachment where somebody else is

19:22

upset becomes yours you can't separate

19:24

between you and another person so

19:26

you end up abandoning yourself saying

19:29

yes when your body says no

19:31

creating all sorts of self abandonment

19:33

and self rejection and self betrayal

19:36

and anxiety and so the whole

19:38

journey I realize it's never about

19:41

the other person. It was all

19:43

about the relationship between me and

19:45

the parts of me that I

19:48

was rejecting and using personal development

19:50

to try to eliminate. And so

19:52

I learned how to get out

19:55

of my head because I, you

19:57

know, chiropractor, intelligent guy, I could

20:00

think my way out of problems,

20:02

I could zone in and solve

20:04

somebody's issue, but I couldn't, I

20:07

was using this character of Dr.

20:09

Nima to not feel, you know,

20:11

pathetic or not good enough for,

20:14

you know what I mean? So

20:16

I went and I integrated what's

20:18

called integration, finding compassion, understanding for

20:21

those kind of darker, shadowy parts

20:23

of me that I was using

20:26

my identity of hero rescuer Dr.

20:28

Nima to try not to feel.

20:30

And I stopped distracting myself with

20:33

women, with... a claim with validation,

20:35

with money, and I started to

20:37

learn how to love that those

20:40

parts of myself that I abandoned.

20:42

And so as a result, I

20:45

could now sit in my own

20:47

skin and I didn't have to

20:49

constantly be riddled with anxiety or

20:52

imposter syndrome or go-go-go-or. in authenticity

20:54

wearing a mask to try to

20:56

people please or try to create

20:59

some character to have you a

21:01

pee or like me. I could

21:04

expand my capacity to have disagreement

21:06

or did you know I expanded

21:08

my capacity to have differing opinions,

21:11

have difference, but be okay with

21:13

that. And so I learned how

21:15

to become a secure human being.

21:18

That's essentially it. You can't. read

21:20

your way through that. You can't

21:22

talk therapy your way through that.

21:25

You got to feel through that

21:27

and and I created a system

21:30

to be able to take the

21:32

triggers and instead of reacting like

21:34

that child or the teenager can

21:37

expand and then integrate those parts

21:39

of me that get activated during

21:41

a trigger and then return back

21:44

home and then in safety into

21:46

myself and then communicate like an

21:49

adult. So it's essentially learning how

21:51

to become an adult rather than

21:53

reacting like a child or teenager.

21:56

That's the journey. kind of the

21:58

title for our podcast is it

22:00

doesn't have to be catastrophic like

22:03

I mean you said that to

22:05

me in our previous conversation and

22:08

I just I loved it like

22:10

and to me what you've just

22:12

described as you have reached a

22:15

place of one acceptance of your

22:17

feelings like I don't have to

22:19

shut these down I don't have

22:22

to push them away I don't

22:24

have to pretend to be somebody

22:27

else I I'm a place of

22:29

acceptance and to me I mean,

22:31

that's one of the key facets

22:34

of attachment is having a person

22:36

who is fully responsive and accepting

22:38

of every piece of you, how

22:41

you show up, the good, the

22:43

bad, the ugly. And so it

22:45

makes perfect sense to me that

22:48

you've been able to move towards

22:50

this place of security because you've

22:53

become that person for yourself. Correct.

22:55

Yeah. Becoming, right? And it's a

22:57

work in progress, right? And the

23:00

deeper that you go, the more

23:02

humble you become to... Wow, I'm

23:04

just here to learn and there's,

23:07

you never get there, but I'm

23:09

curious about the, the search and

23:12

here's the key about attachment. On

23:14

the other side of that, I

23:16

was able to meet somebody who

23:19

is secure within herself and, you

23:21

know, it was weird to meet

23:23

somebody that I didn't have to

23:26

rescue. This is the key because

23:28

before my relationships were based on,

23:31

I've got to rescue someone so

23:33

that I can feel important and

23:35

so that I can be pedestalized

23:38

by them. And that comes from

23:40

an insecurity. And as we filled

23:42

the cracks in the floorboard internally,

23:45

I met somebody who didn't need

23:47

that. And it was weird at

23:49

first, Kirsty, to be like, wow,

23:52

she doesn't like need me financially

23:54

or emotionally. It's just, she's just

23:57

there. And to... Once I found

23:59

that state of unconditional love for

24:01

me, I was able to for

24:04

the first time love somebody that

24:06

wasn't that it wasn't based on

24:08

what they're giving me. Right? It

24:11

was like, wow, I could truly

24:13

see her and she could see

24:16

me and our relationship now, when

24:18

we have arguments, we resolve them

24:20

like adults and it's. totally different

24:23

not to be run by this

24:25

push-pull dynamic. It takes a little

24:27

bit of adjusting. You know, there's

24:30

two types of that inner work.

24:32

One, the first type where you

24:35

do it as single, solo work,

24:37

and then when you get into

24:39

a relationship... That's a whole new

24:42

ball of wax. All of your

24:44

attachment stuff will come up. But

24:46

now I have the skills and

24:49

we are working through it together.

24:51

It's our five-year anniversary coming up

24:54

next month in the recording of

24:56

this. And I'm looking now and

24:58

my relationship is stronger with her

25:01

now than it was in the

25:03

beginning, which usually before it was

25:05

hot and heavy in the beginning

25:08

and then it would fizzle out.

25:10

But this, it's becoming stronger because...

25:12

I have the skill of repair,

25:15

first with myself and with my

25:17

partner. And now, with our four-year-old

25:20

at the recording of this, he

25:22

just knows that this home is

25:24

a safe place. He doesn't have

25:27

to live in a place where

25:29

the home is like a battlefield,

25:31

the way that I grew up,

25:34

right? And it was interesting yesterday.

25:36

I just asked him, you know,

25:39

he was, I went skiing and

25:41

I came back and he said,

25:43

dad, I really miss you. Dominic

25:46

what? you love me? And he

25:48

goes, well, because you buy me

25:50

things. Because you buy me all

25:53

the toys. And I said, why

25:55

do you love your mom? Well,

25:58

because she helps me and I

26:00

just started reflecting is that before

26:02

we do the work, we are

26:05

that child. And the love that

26:07

we have for others is based

26:09

on what they do for us.

26:12

I didn't understand what love was.

26:14

I was like, of course I

26:16

love her. Why? Because she does

26:19

this and this and this and

26:21

this for me. Which was my

26:24

son my four-year-old was reflecting as

26:26

I was showing up in relationships

26:28

like a four-year-old That it's based

26:31

on what are you doing for

26:33

me now? I love my wife

26:35

not be not only because she

26:38

does so much for me That's

26:40

great. And that's we fulfill each

26:43

other's needs in many ways, but

26:45

just in who she is and

26:47

I was never able to see

26:50

that for myself and so that's

26:52

why it is so meaningful for

26:54

me to guide other people to

26:57

that same realization because I see

26:59

people in their 30s and their

27:02

40s and 50s still struggling with

27:04

relationships and I'm like wow I

27:06

see myself in you you were

27:09

that you're like my son it's

27:11

just it's about extraction energy right

27:13

or the same kind of dynamics

27:16

from childhood is like I have

27:18

to give give give hoping that

27:21

one day it'll be returned and

27:23

it never is and so If

27:25

we don't heal those attachment wounds,

27:28

we don't learn how to become

27:30

trigger-proof, we will repeat those unconscious

27:32

patterns like I was, and the

27:35

good news is, it doesn't have

27:37

to be that way. I mean,

27:39

you just, there was so much

27:42

in what you just described. Where

27:44

do we begin? Well, yeah, I

27:47

think one of the key points

27:49

that I want to pull out

27:51

is that... What you're

27:53

not saying is, you're not saying

27:56

that your relationship is this picture

27:58

perfect and free of any conflict,

28:00

right? No, that rupture happens, but

28:03

now you have found a different

28:05

way to repair. Yeah, Kirstie, I

28:07

have to tell you, I gotta

28:09

say this. 90% of the work

28:12

that I do with the people

28:14

that I'm in, that I work

28:16

with, is dissolving their fantasies about

28:19

what they think a relationship should

28:21

be. And we create these fantasies

28:23

in childhood to escape a really

28:25

painful reality that one day I'm

28:28

gonna have this night in shining

28:30

armor and there will be unconditional

28:32

positive regard and they will pedestalize

28:35

me and that... That's just the

28:37

childish fantasy. And now, you know,

28:39

I have a mature, secure relationship,

28:41

which means we get on each

28:44

other's nerves and then we repair.

28:46

Like there's a skill you can

28:48

learn how to create that sense

28:51

of safety. And that's why it's

28:53

about dissolving the fantasies. And yes,

28:55

you know, I can bring her

28:57

in here and she'll tell you

29:00

that I'm not always a picnic

29:02

and we'll have a laugh about

29:04

it, right? And that's because we're

29:07

human. Right? And so getting out

29:09

of fantasy is like 90% of

29:11

the work, Kirstie. Mm-hmm. You know,

29:13

I just, I love that. You

29:16

know, we, I think I mentioned

29:18

this to you in our previous

29:20

chat, but, you know, some of

29:23

the work that we do when

29:25

working with the family and child

29:27

dynamic is helping the, particularly, the

29:29

adult reach that point as well

29:32

of. dissolving this kind of fantasy

29:34

relationship that they had, particularly if

29:36

they are a foster or an

29:39

adoptive parent, because that child is

29:41

not where you are as an

29:43

adult. You have been on this

29:45

journey, you're still on this journey.

29:48

That child is at the very

29:50

start of that healing journey. And

29:52

so helping the adult understand that

29:55

the relationship is going to look

29:57

very different. because of where this

29:59

child. that. 100% yeah and that

30:02

the work of becoming

30:04

trigger-proof is how to

30:06

embrace what is what's in

30:09

front of you when my

30:11

child is you know having

30:13

emotions having a meltdown

30:15

what's happening within you

30:18

right it's like the dog

30:20

whisper have you ever seen the

30:22

dog whisper It's a really neat

30:25

show. You could just check it

30:27

out. Somebody has a problem with

30:29

a dog, and they call the dog

30:32

whisper, and the dog whisper goes

30:34

in, they're like, could you fix

30:36

my dog? And then the dog

30:38

whisper is like, it's not your

30:40

dog, it's you, right? And he

30:42

goes in and trains the owner

30:44

in shifting their way of being,

30:47

and then immediately the dog

30:49

shifts, and it's like.

30:51

Whoa, so it's about

30:53

training the owner in

30:55

shifting who they're becoming,

30:57

right, becoming a leader,

30:59

right? Otherwise, the dog

31:01

perceives that lack of

31:04

leadership and starts acting

31:06

out. We're the same. parenting is

31:08

the same thing whether it's foster whether

31:10

it's whether you're leading a community

31:12

whether you're a man leading a

31:14

family right whether you're leading a

31:16

family you're leading your children they're

31:18

responding to your energy and this

31:20

is not a fault or blame

31:22

a conversation so I can already

31:24

see people getting defensive and oh

31:26

are you blaming me no this

31:28

is not a blame this is

31:31

a. you know, this is a

31:33

taking accountability for who I'm

31:35

being in the face of

31:37

a child who's having some

31:39

challenges, right? And so I

31:42

can become a victim to

31:44

that, or I can really

31:46

go within repair with

31:48

me first, repair the

31:50

parent, the little one inside

31:53

of me before I

31:55

take care of the little one

31:57

outside of me, so it's not

31:59

a... the child in front of

32:01

you, it's about the kid inside

32:03

of you. Well, and instead of

32:06

looking at it as well as

32:08

blame, looking at it as an

32:10

opportunity, and you talked about this

32:12

earlier, about giving grace to

32:14

yourself, giving grace to where

32:17

those dark negative, unhealthy

32:19

feelings, behaviors, sorts are coming

32:21

from and saying, you know, I

32:23

don't have to be a product

32:25

of those things. They are a

32:28

part of me. and I recognize that

32:30

and I recognize the place where

32:32

they came from and now I

32:34

can give them grace and I

32:36

can say I don't need you

32:38

anymore I don't need that part

32:40

of me right now and I

32:42

can show up differently whether it

32:44

be with a child or with

32:46

a spouse or significant other and

32:49

I think that that it just

32:51

changes the way that we see

32:53

other people that that we all

32:55

have these parts that aren't

32:58

so helpful in relationships. Well

33:00

I have a I have a

33:02

really neat school of thought of

33:04

that Kirstie is that if you've

33:06

ever read the book if you've

33:08

ever studied Richard Schwartz's work and

33:10

the book No Bad Parts. I

33:13

really integrate that into my work

33:15

and instead of kind of looking

33:17

at them and says I don't

33:19

need you anymore which kind of

33:21

gas lights these parts of us.

33:23

What I like to do is

33:26

to get into a place of

33:28

understanding. Because these parts of

33:30

us are protectors, they're

33:32

protective in some way.

33:34

And if we, when

33:36

we can observe them

33:38

with curiosity and understanding,

33:40

then all of a sudden,

33:43

they start to calm down

33:45

because your higher self is

33:47

online, instead of saying that

33:50

I don't need you, once

33:52

you look and see that. Oh my

33:54

gosh, I need you when my

33:56

higher self is not online and

33:59

when high... self-capital S is online,

34:01

I can look at these protective

34:03

parts with compassion and that's when

34:05

they start to, that's when they

34:07

start to calm down. It's like

34:09

a child when he's, when my

34:12

son is like really like needing

34:14

attention. If I turn to him

34:16

and I'm like, God, what is

34:18

it? I don't, I don't need

34:20

you, he doesn't calm down, but

34:22

when I turn towards him... in

34:24

a calm manner with curiosity and

34:27

what is it that you need

34:29

and try to get to understanding,

34:31

understanding equates to love. When you

34:33

get to understanding, you're loving that

34:35

part, all of a sudden, you

34:37

become higher self and the problem

34:39

dissolves. You see a massive shift

34:42

that happens internally. The distinction is

34:44

really important for me because I've

34:46

been working on trying to get

34:48

rid of these parts and saying

34:50

that I don't need them for

34:52

a while and it hadn't worked

34:54

until I turned towards them with

34:57

like a heart-opening understanding and now

34:59

it's kind of like my executive

35:01

is online and I'm observing these

35:03

parts that are there and if

35:05

I'm if you can see them

35:07

you don't have to be them.

35:09

You can't see them, then they

35:11

consume you. So it's a really

35:14

neat, it's a really neat way

35:16

of playing with all our multiplicities.

35:18

And that's one of the things

35:20

that I had, another part of

35:22

the thing I learned is I

35:24

am not just one person. When

35:26

you're looking in the mirror, you

35:29

are looking at hundreds of different

35:31

parts of you that show up

35:33

to try to get your needs

35:35

met. And my work becomes to

35:37

bring my adult self online so

35:39

that I could meet those needs

35:41

and they don't have to take

35:44

over. Well, and it was so,

35:46

I think this is what I

35:48

was going to say earlier, but

35:50

it's so interesting that you said

35:52

earlier that you ended up abandoning

35:54

yourself, which is, I mean, like,

35:56

I can't even explain it because

35:59

that's what happened to you as

36:01

a child. you had these feelings

36:03

of abandonment and then come full

36:05

circle you've ended up doing it

36:07

to yourself. And I just see

36:09

that as such a aha moment

36:11

of like wow this is it

36:13

started with protection but ended up

36:16

being so much more harmful and

36:18

you know I it's like this

36:20

delicate balance of looking at an

36:22

experience and saying I did it

36:24

to survive, but also it was

36:26

harmful to me and being able

36:28

to balance that. Well, it's kind

36:31

of a universal law is that

36:33

the strategies that we use to

36:35

survive childhood, they worked, right? That's

36:37

how you're here. Thank God I

36:39

did that because I'm here. The

36:41

problem is what got me here

36:43

to survive. is not going to

36:46

get me to the next level.

36:48

And so it's up to me

36:50

to learn how to shift that

36:52

old identity into a new one,

36:54

where it's not based on survival

36:56

anymore. So that becomes, the second

36:58

half of the journey becomes all

37:01

about loving those parts of me

37:03

that I abandoned in order to

37:05

survive. And that's, I think, all

37:07

of our, that's our task, isn't

37:09

it? Where it's our, we're summoned,

37:11

we're all summoned into that journey,

37:13

and it's just about finding the

37:16

right guide that's going to help

37:18

us get there. Right, and just

37:20

being that secure base for yourself.

37:22

Yeah, embracing those, all of those

37:24

parts that are showing up. So,

37:26

whenever you get triggered, that's the

37:28

skill. How do you know where

37:30

they are? They will show up

37:33

every single time you get triggered.

37:35

You're texting somebody, they don't text

37:37

you back. Boom, those anxious attachment

37:39

parts show up. You want to

37:41

say yes, you want to say

37:43

no, but all of a sudden

37:45

you feel like you're gonna be

37:48

a bad. person, boom, those parts

37:50

are showing up. So it's the

37:52

skill of learning how to observe

37:54

how your body constricts. those parts

37:56

of us show up with an

37:58

awareness in the body. And as

38:00

you learn how to kind of

38:03

connect with your body and you

38:05

notice the constriction, and those, that

38:07

becomes your kind of bat signal,

38:09

call to action, to go and

38:11

find those parts and create safety

38:13

and integrate. So I've created this

38:15

methodology of rapid integration where you're

38:18

able to observe your triggers whenever

38:20

they show up, you know, in

38:22

a push-pull dynamic when you get

38:24

criticized. all of a sudden you

38:26

get defensive, boom it's showing up,

38:28

integrate with that part before communicating,

38:30

and now you don't have to

38:32

create a conflict that turns into

38:35

like a volatile argument versus one

38:37

that can be easily doused because

38:39

you repaired with yourself. So it

38:41

is a skill that you can

38:43

get better and better at like

38:45

skiing, like playing an instrument, and

38:47

I just knew that my life

38:50

depended on me mastering this skill.

38:52

And would you say that that...

38:54

describes a little bit about kind

38:56

of the treatment approach that you

38:58

have in terms of, I'd written

39:00

down like the lower levels of

39:02

treatment as such, addressing that somatic

39:05

piece, like this, what is this

39:07

actual feeling? Where is it in

39:09

my body? What's happening? And then

39:11

once we can recognize that, we

39:13

start moving towards those higher levels

39:15

and thinking about more cognitive processing

39:17

and then that integration piece. Correct.

39:20

Exactly. In a moment when you

39:22

get triggered, Kirstie, there is no

39:24

cognitive cognition. You are now regressed

39:26

to a child. And what you're

39:28

doing is you're practicing noticing what

39:30

happens in your body and noticing

39:32

the constriction going in. And in

39:34

our community, we do these trainings

39:37

weekly. And then you're asking the

39:39

question, all right. So, um, they

39:41

didn't. they canceled the date for

39:43

the third time. Okay, they canceled

39:45

the date for the third time.

39:47

Immediately, you notice this constriction in

39:49

your body, you feel sad, you're

39:52

triggered, you're activated. What are you

39:54

making this mean about you? What

39:56

am I making this mean about

39:58

me? And so it's really digging

40:00

and finding the hidden meaning behind

40:02

it is always a self-abandonment. I'm

40:04

not good enough. I'm not worthy.

40:07

Usually people get hung up in

40:09

the beginning of this when they're

40:11

like, what are you making it

40:13

mean? I'm making it mean they're

40:15

an asshole. Okay, they're not. Let's

40:17

not look at them. Let's understand

40:19

their behavior. Let's move that aside

40:22

and let's go internal. And then

40:24

all of a sudden, that's when

40:26

the tears start to come, the

40:28

vulnerability. I'm not enough. I'm not

40:30

lovable. I'm like, okay, good, how

40:32

old is this part of you?

40:34

And that's when we're able to

40:36

find the inciting incidents and these

40:39

parts of us that have been

40:41

activated and the practice becomes to

40:43

become the adult and fill the

40:45

needs and parent the younger parts

40:47

of us that get activated during

40:49

these. relational dynamics. Any relationship that

40:51

you go into, even a secure

40:54

one, will activate your younger parts,

40:56

but we aren't taught the skills

40:58

in repairing with these attachment wounds

41:00

with ourselves. And so once you

41:02

learn how to do that, now

41:04

you're no longer eight, you've repented

41:06

that part, now you can choose.

41:09

All right, that's my third time.

41:11

And you can advocate for that

41:13

younger self. And like, you deserve

41:15

better. That was three canceled dates.

41:17

Sorry, I'm just, this isn't working

41:19

for me. Now, if you don't

41:21

do that work, you could still

41:24

fall into the trap of, and

41:26

if you're familiar, if you, what

41:28

was familiar to you was a

41:30

parent that just never. showed up

41:32

and that's familiar, you'll probably go,

41:34

okay, so when can we do

41:36

our fourth one? You'll wait and

41:38

hope that they change their mind

41:41

and book a fourth one, thereby

41:43

abandoning yourself again, giving the message

41:45

that you're not, you don't, you

41:47

don't have any self worth, and

41:49

that just keeps the behavior repeating.

41:51

And then the person's like, why

41:53

do I always? date the same

41:56

type of person? Why do I

41:58

attract the exact same type of

42:00

person? Well, my dear, you abandoned

42:02

yourself a long time ago and

42:04

you're repeating what's so familiar to

42:06

you. Until you stop looking out

42:08

there and blaming out there and

42:11

not blaming you, but finding those

42:13

parts of you, you can then

42:15

look and notice the pattern and

42:17

go, oh, that was the third

42:19

one, I'm done. I can move

42:21

on. It's a no for me,

42:23

we're moving on. Right? And so

42:26

this is the journey that we're

42:28

all summoned to take on becoming

42:30

our healthy adult self. Nima, thank

42:32

you so much for the conversation.

42:34

I cannot wait for our listeners

42:36

to hear it. I think that

42:38

you're doing some really powerful work.

42:41

When is the book coming out

42:43

for coming? It's coming out in

42:45

September of 2025. It's called Becoming

42:47

Trigger Proof, a guide to break

42:49

free from trauma bonds, heal codependency,

42:51

and create secure love. I cannot

42:53

wait for it to come out.

42:55

I am looking forward to reading

42:58

it, and then maybe we can

43:00

look at you rejoining us again

43:02

on the podcast. I would love

43:04

to be back if it aligns.

43:06

Absolutely. Thank you so much. Also

43:08

wanted to give you, in the

43:10

show notes, my team has provided

43:13

a link. for people where they

43:15

really would love to start understanding

43:17

with their attachment styles. I know

43:19

you have, I have a quiz

43:21

that is really detailed that helps

43:23

you understand anxious. avoidant,

43:25

disorganized, and it

43:28

really goes through.

43:30

And I just

43:32

wanted to provide

43:34

that quiz for

43:36

anybody who was

43:38

really interested in

43:40

diving deeper. anybody who

43:43

No, I'm so

43:45

glad that you

43:47

mentioned that. I

43:49

think it will

43:51

be a great

43:53

resource for many

43:55

of our listeners. no,

43:57

I'm thank you. that

44:00

you mentioned that. I think it

44:02

will be a you

44:04

enjoyed the podcast,

44:06

please leave us

44:08

a review and

44:10

share with your

44:12

friends and coworkers. thank

44:15

you. You can

44:17

also connect and

44:19

chat with other

44:21

listeners through our through

44:23

our Facebook On behalf

44:25

of all of

44:27

us here at

44:30

the at the Knowledge

44:32

thanks for tuning

44:34

in. in.