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The following talk was

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given at the

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Insight Meditation

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Center in Redwood

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City California.

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Please visit our

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website at audiodarma.org.

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Okay. It's good

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too. Good to

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say with you. So

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I remember a long

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time ago. was returning

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from a retreat

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and was telling a

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friend about a

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dissolution experience, a

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kind of prolonged

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experience of the

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self, having no

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trace whatsoever, and

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kind of melting

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away of of

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agency and boundaries

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and sense of

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centerlessness. Everything was

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the background. There's

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no foreground background

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is like everything was

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background. And it

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was exquisitely peaceful

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and as I'm

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describing it, she's

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laughing saying this

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sounds horrible. And

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when people describe

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a kind of

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emptiness, these descriptions

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often echo some

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unsettling kind

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of psychiatric symptoms

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and de-personalization,

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de-realization, characterized by

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feeling kind of

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very detached from

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one's feelings and

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experiencing that one's

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surroundings and objects

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and people as

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people often say.

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or distant or artificial

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or lifeless. And yet

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the person experiencing that

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is their reality

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testing, it remains

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intact, they're not

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having psychotic symptoms.

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But it leads to

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huge distress and

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impairment and almost

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everybody with that

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has co-occurring depression,

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anxiety, conditions. And

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here's Nagarjana

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describing the positive

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dimensions of emptiness. It

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says, whenever there's

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belief that things

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are real, desire,

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and hatred spring

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unendingly, unwholesome views are

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entertained from which all disputes

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come. This is the source

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of every view. Without

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it, no defilement can

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occur. Thus, when

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dependent origination

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is completely understood,

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all views and

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afflictions vanish utterly.

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So that sounds

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good. But I've often

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thought that there might

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be some overlap. If you

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were neuroimaging a

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brain unemptiness and

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a person experiencing

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derealization,

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I would imagine there

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be some overlaps. And

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I don't want to

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say that they're

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the same experience,

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but they kind of rhyme

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a little with each other.

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And so then the

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question is, what accounts

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for the difference between

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nourishing? and terrifying

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dissolution experience. experiences.

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The researcher Aviva Berkovich

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Ohana and meditation teacher

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Stephen folder and some

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of their colleagues published

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a paper that I

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just saw I think

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yesterday and examining that.

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That question is more

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complex study. I'll post

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the study in the

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YouTube description. I won't

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go over all of

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it, but want to

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speak to some elements

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of it. So as

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animals, like knowing what's

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going to happen next

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is of paramount importance.

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I sort of say

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that often. and that

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our brains are continuously

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generating and updating models

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of self and world.

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these authors and we

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start to get more

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sensitive to that that's

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what I was all

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looting to in the

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sit a little, you

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know, the kind of

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sense of the reiteration

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of the model that

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creates like happening fast

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enough that there's a

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sense of continuity. And

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the authors argue

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that the basic

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experience of phenomenal

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selfhood, phenomenal is

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like the subjective

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experience of self,

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the experience of

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feeling like a

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self, this arises

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as a function

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of those modeling

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processes, you know,

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and even the

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sense of existing.

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existing emerges from

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some of that

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predictive processing. And

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we we usually

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consider the sense

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of self as

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the cause of

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things. I choose

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to do this,

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I choose to

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do that, I

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did it, myself

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did it. But

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in Buddhist psychology,

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an effect of

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things, not a

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cause. The self

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is, I might

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say, an effect

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of fear, the

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consequence of fear,

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and there's no

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greater fear, the

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consequence of fear.

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And there's no

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greater fear than

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death. And

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death denial is

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considered a kind

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of trans diagnostic

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construct. So it

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costs many different

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forms of psychological

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distress. There is

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elevations of death

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anxiety. And of

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course anybody with

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even without any

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elevated psychological distress,

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a lot of

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feeling, of course,

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around death. And

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this fear leads

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us to associate

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death with the

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other, not with

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self. And in

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a way, it

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can sometimes have

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the sense of

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like this subtle

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default assumption of

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immortality. So

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what what what does

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death threaten? It

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seems to threaten

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everything, but the

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very foundation, the

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sense of self,

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is a target

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that is put

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under direct threat

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by the prospect

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of mortality. Stephen

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the vine asked

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the question in

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the title of

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a book, who

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dies, who dies.

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And this sense

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of self is,

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it's not the

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only part, but

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I think it's

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a part of

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what makes death

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so terrifying. And

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it feels like

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death pertains to

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to me, the

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kind of me

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inside me, it

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pertains to the

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seat of subjectivity,

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the center. And

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in kind of

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dissolution experiences, that

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comes under threat,

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you know, there's

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a kind of,

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sometimes a fear

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of non-being. The

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Buddha described, Bavattana,

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the craving to

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become, the craving

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to become the

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kind of perpetuation

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of a something

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into the future.

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And dissolution is

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the extinguishing of

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Bavattana. And

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so what the

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researchers found previously

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you know, prior

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study was that

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the depth of

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dissolution was not

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correlated with bliss

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or terror. So

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it wasn't like

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if you partially

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melted, it's bad,

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it's unpleasant, and

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if you fully

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melted, it's good.

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What the researchers

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found was that

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higher levels of

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death anxiety led

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to more fearful

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dissolution experiences. De

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realization, de-personalization that

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was negatively valenced,

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unpleasant, fearful, terrifying,

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anxious. And when

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one's relationship... With

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death is deeply

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unsettled. The dissolution

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experience is sensed

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as a kind

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of attack, a

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mortal attack, the

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sense of self.

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And so in

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Darma practice we

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contemplate endings, mortality,

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groundlessness. We place

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anicia in permanence

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at the center

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of all things.

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And then dissolution

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maybe doesn't feel

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like it threatens

11:46

as much. loss

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But that sense of

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like the kernel of

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one's being perishing under

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the tides of change

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and more mortality that

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can shift. And there's

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still a goodbye, but

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a different kind of

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goodbye. And the vine

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writes death, death somewhere,

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I think, in A

12:19

Year to Live, that

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book. Death is perfectly

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safe. Letting

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go is

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kind of

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rehearsal, dying

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concert. And

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don't mistake

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what I'm

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saying. I

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don't, I

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don't think,

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it's my

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view, but

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I don't

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think even.

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Enlightenment is

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a perfect

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consolation for

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death. Not

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perfect. In

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other words,

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maybe grief

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is a

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kind of

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irreducible part

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of the

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universe. To

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my mind,

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it can't

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be refined

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further. But

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the Darmama

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really helps.

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and it

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helps with

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the most

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fundamental problem

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for all

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animals. And

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maybe this

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bolsters are

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courage in

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this period

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of moral

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decrepitude. I

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don't know. how how

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I'll be asked

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to spend my

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modest courage, but

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I do know

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that I'm being

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asked to develop

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it. develop it. Maybe so. Okay,

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I offer this for your

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I'll offer this

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for your consideration.