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of high pick a. Similar

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starker: How play. To. Play.

0:58

It now with game pass. Hello,

1:39

friends, benders, and non-benders alike. Welcome

1:41

to Braving the Elements Nickelodeon's podcast

1:43

about all things Avatarverse. I'm Janet

1:45

Varney. And I'm Dante Bosco. And

1:47

we're back in studio together, Varney.

1:50

But we're not alone. No, my friend.

1:52

We are not alone. No, we're not. In fact,

1:54

I'm going to go ahead and say, you could say that

1:56

we are here with family because we are here with... And

1:58

yes, it is something we are... Driving right into

2:01

the ground one of our to

2:03

that it but a lot about

2:05

you that whole creator of the

2:07

entire avatar verse by internet saw.

2:10

Hello! Welcome Thanks for having me

2:12

see your person in person. Yeah,

2:14

what? what a novel! Just. Walked.

2:17

In didn't have more, weren't in a box, had

2:19

legs incinerate to the very. We had to adjust

2:21

to that, but. We. Remember how this

2:23

works and and we're so excited Be at

2:25

our studio here in Hollywood! To. Talk

2:28

about all things Avatar verse. Me,

2:30

that's what we saw podcasting with each other

2:32

from home audio only, but then we got

2:34

his and so together in from live audiences

2:36

Which we still do is it. Is yeah

2:38

yeah, this is if you're watching this

2:40

out of chronological context. We started at

2:42

home. Ah, we started doing some

2:44

live shows together a con. Now we're

2:46

in a studio arm. It's just kind

2:48

of a. Little bit

2:50

of an evolution of the of the podcast.

2:53

You. Can see that we started as

2:55

one thing, but over time the podcast

2:57

has evolved to be something a little

3:00

bit different. And. That's why we thought

3:02

it would be really fun to talk about a

3:04

different kind of evolution yes here on braving the

3:06

elements. God I'm good you?

3:08

what? About less. Seamless.

3:11

right? So that handily brings us

3:13

to what wanted to talk about because ah

3:16

with I was It'll be fun to take

3:18

a look at the evolution of character design

3:20

through Avatar. The Last Airbender from won the

3:22

series was being and sept did are all

3:24

the way up to book Three, an end

3:26

and the way it developed and why it

3:28

developed the way that. It did and of

3:31

course I'm going to add that it would

3:33

be a dream to have you back as

3:35

a com with the conversation once we have

3:37

the Nina feature animated feature the of ng

3:39

his friends. From. Avatar

3:41

Studio has. There's no way that there hasn't been

3:44

more evolution happening behind that the echoes. Going. To

3:46

your law be even more were

3:48

hugely and I thing is though

3:50

be a phone conversation and there

3:52

are. Many. Artists working

3:54

on that while. Taking

3:56

the lead on that stuff so hopefully we can get

3:59

them and at best. The great art by that. Fluid

4:01

love it. This is something that we've kind of.

4:03

I mean that the whole point. The Pie: Catholic.

4:05

None of us ever get tired of hearing about

4:07

that stuff. We're talking about that stuff and learning

4:09

more. And that's one of the things that me

4:11

I talked about this on the podcast. A bunch

4:13

of bride you know, I like sung your praises.

4:15

About. This many times in the past, but. Going.

4:18

To com a consulate you and

4:20

make and joachim and sometimes like

4:22

Cam ah Jeremy like. The.

4:24

Way that you bring the audience and

4:27

and let. Them be a part of the

4:29

process. Is was very early on. one of

4:31

my favorite things. About. Being a part

4:33

of the avatar verse at all, there's. Just not. There's

4:35

not the sort of like removal of

4:38

like, don't you know, ignore the man

4:40

behind the curtain or what have you

4:42

that you really bring people in and

4:44

that in turn inspires people to. Do.

4:47

Their own work. When they see that it's

4:49

possible than they see and of how those

4:51

things evolve. So that's bad that we were

4:53

cited. Talk about that because I feel like

4:55

that's kind of a signature of. Of

4:57

this world building that you've done is

5:00

that inclusiveness and encouragement and people to

5:02

understand what the process is like. I

5:04

love it. go of. Hopefully this

5:07

discussion will offer some some insight,

5:09

especially for folks who are sparring

5:11

artists and or are you know

5:13

even already. People. Who are

5:16

working? I'm or wanna get into character

5:18

design or they'll hopefully we can. we

5:20

can! I love talking about this stuff.

5:22

It's think I'd Yeah, it's something I

5:24

spent a lot of time doing and

5:26

thinking about over the courses. You

5:29

know the avatar and. Core. Productions and.

5:32

Still, Occupies a lot of

5:34

my time. not as much, but a lot

5:36

of my time now. So. Death

5:39

of I Love It. Will

5:41

dance how he talks about. You know that the. The.

5:44

Process of. Accepting praise from

5:46

people The Alice how good our performances

5:48

were and were like I mean yes,

5:50

but I think you might be also

5:53

thinking about the character design and other

5:55

categories and happening We get a beverage

5:57

know course It's a very unique. The

6:00

Be A Voice Acted as You Really Do shared

6:02

the performance. With. The animator spear

6:04

witches and it's so fast thing as

6:06

we're going back to and I'm going

6:08

back to watching episodes for this podcast.

6:10

ah because was like lot are some

6:12

go back you don't just go back

6:14

and really kennel like delve into things

6:17

you don't the passer come on too

6:19

much time do next but going back

6:21

to see these performances of Mean Jack

6:23

in. The Kayla, it's it's

6:25

image you see. These are the artist and the

6:27

characters goes. So. Fast they me because I

6:29

can see them ourselves in the character but

6:31

then I can also see. This

6:34

really wonderful performance. Being drawn by

6:36

all the source. or there's the

6:38

performance you know, animated by the

6:40

animators. but the other the kind

6:42

of third component is that design

6:44

and and I'm. That's. Something

6:46

that the animators typically are handed joke

6:48

at. the design is given to them

6:51

they they I'm there and the the

6:53

kind of like middle and of you

6:55

know middle side of a production and

6:58

design is is in the pre production

7:00

say is i'm Diana out When I

7:02

give lectures about character design to students

7:05

I'm. Not in talk

7:07

about how. There's. A

7:09

difference between a. A. A

7:11

beautiful drawing and a. Good.

7:14

Design. And they're They're

7:16

not. You can have

7:18

a beautiful drawing of a good

7:20

design, but you can have a

7:22

good design that translates to beyond

7:24

different mediums. And so the way

7:26

I think of a design is.

7:29

It's a recipe. It's a sort of. It's

7:32

a blueprint. It's a plan. And.

7:34

It's something that. it's a plan set. A plan

7:36

that can be handed to. Different. Artists

7:39

again different mediums, Ah,

7:41

I'm. A get although you

7:43

know from A to D. Colored.

7:45

Cleaned up drawing or a

7:48

plus. You. Know or a

7:50

costume. yeah, I read. How

7:53

does that? Design. Translate.

7:56

be you know that the sort of

7:59

ingredients the components the proportion, the

8:01

sort of color blocking, the

8:03

silhouette. How does that

8:05

stuff translate beyond just

8:08

like a gorgeous

8:10

drawing? Because someone like Kihyeon

8:14

Ryu, you can draw anything and it's

8:16

beautiful and you're going to want to look at it.

8:19

But I can tell you even trying to copy

8:21

that very drawing, if

8:24

I try to copy it, I'm a lesser drafts

8:26

person. It loses a lot

8:28

of its magic, a lot of its charm. And

8:31

then if someone copied my drawing of his drawing

8:34

and you go on and on, by the end you might

8:37

just be like, this is a terrible drawing. Why would anyone

8:39

want to look at this? You've lost that

8:41

kind of performance in

8:43

a way, that sort of virtuosity.

8:46

But a design can

8:49

translate and can travel through

8:51

different hands, different skill levels

8:53

and still communicate something

8:56

strong. So that's kind

8:59

of the fundamental way to think of, at

9:02

least the way I think of character design.

9:04

Absolutely. Well, and I think that

9:06

sort of, if you are a person who is

9:09

not necessarily a visual artist, especially, and you think

9:11

about something like a performance, like an actor, there's

9:15

this sort of almost pressure to be

9:17

unique or to be this one-off that

9:20

it has to be so special

9:23

that it couldn't possibly be duplicated. And

9:25

that somehow the value is inherent in

9:27

that, which is such a

9:29

misrepresentation of the way art is

9:31

produced, depending on what medium you're

9:33

using. It's not helpful at all

9:35

to have this thing that you can never duplicate

9:38

that's like, yeah, there's this one painting. It can

9:40

live as one painting forever in one place. And

9:42

even a print is sort of like, eh, not

9:44

the same. I mean, that's not... Yeah,

9:46

animation is generally

9:49

a collaborative medium. I mean,

9:51

these days with technology,

9:54

I'll see an incredible post, some beautifully animated

9:56

thing, and you read the caption, it's like,

9:59

solo animation. animation project by some 19-year-old,

10:01

you know, and you're just like, oh

10:03

my gosh. But generally, at least,

10:05

you know, when you're talking a series or a feature,

10:07

it is a very collaborative

10:11

process. And yeah,

10:13

there's a sort of, you

10:17

know, a practical consideration, like

10:20

in 2D animation, especially where these things are

10:22

hand-drawn, even on the computer, they're still hand-drawn.

10:24

We have to keep the design kind of

10:26

simple. Any line you

10:29

add, I always tell this to artists,

10:31

any line you add to a design

10:33

is going to be drawn thousands

10:36

and thousands of times. Wow.

10:38

At a second line, you are now

10:40

doubling the number of lines. Right, right,

10:43

right, right. So we

10:45

are often in 2D animation pairing it

10:47

down, what is essential? And

10:51

if you don't pair it down enough,

10:53

you're really taxing your animators

10:55

and your cleanup artists and your

10:58

color, you know, your color. I

11:00

know. So, and that can

11:02

actually make the animation suffer.

11:05

It's not as on model as we call

11:08

it, like drawn, you know, like to the

11:10

right look. But

11:14

as artists, we're always so insecure and

11:16

we feel like we have to put

11:18

little tchotchkes and doodads and, you know,

11:20

and fancy everything up. So

11:22

there's the practical consideration of what you're

11:25

putting into a design and the reasons

11:27

why we might pair down. But actually,

11:29

there's also a, I think

11:32

there's a reason Anime is gaining

11:34

in popularity and people still like

11:37

2D animation because there's a sort

11:40

of an iconic, there's

11:44

a stronger graphic impact of

11:47

these flatter, you know, kind of characters

11:49

that aren't rendered with

11:51

every little fiber and clothing and every

11:54

pore in the skin and every hair

11:56

on their head. I think we as

11:58

humans alike. these sort

12:00

of, it's art, you know, like

12:03

an artist generally is making

12:05

choices. And when you're making choices, you're leaving

12:08

things in and you're leaving things out. And

12:11

so even if you,

12:13

hey, budget and complex

12:15

designs aren't an issue, you still

12:18

kind of want to pair things down because it's like

12:20

how quickly can

12:22

the eye and the brain read these

12:25

images and these characters and kind of

12:27

boiling it down to its essence, you

12:29

know? So maybe we don't

12:31

need all those little bells and whistles. Maybe

12:33

it's too much, it's getting in the way,

12:35

you know? So the practical concerns. And then

12:37

I think there are sort of aesthetic

12:41

concerns with simplifying

12:43

designs and getting them down to

12:45

their essence. Yeah. Well,

12:47

so going back to the sort of pre-all

12:50

of this, when you

12:52

and Mike met at RISD

12:54

and these very initial ideas

12:57

were brewing and, you know, if you

12:59

have the art book or if you've

13:02

read the art book, or even if

13:04

you've searched around for stuff like this

13:06

online, it's certainly out there. There are

13:08

these kind of cursory images that we

13:11

can still look at and very much

13:13

identify as characters we understand from the

13:15

Avatarverse. This is pre-pilot, this is pre-pitch

13:17

to Nickelodeon. How much of that were

13:20

you already carrying around with you that

13:22

you had learned in school and

13:24

through your own experience? Like how much of what

13:26

you just said is experiential from

13:29

all of this time of really understanding the

13:31

process as a group? Or how

13:34

much of that was on your mind as you're kind of

13:36

loosely sketching this little Aang character with an arrow on his

13:38

head? I mean, I got, I was

13:41

very lucky to go to RISD. And

13:44

I went to the Art Academy of Cincinnati

13:46

for my foundation here before

13:48

that. And I got,

13:50

I went, I majored in illustration, did a little

13:52

bit of minoring in

13:55

animation, but

13:57

mostly focused on illustration. And

14:00

I always say that is just a great, very

14:03

broad, fundamental kind of art education.

14:05

And it's just like, is

14:08

this image communicating something to

14:10

a viewer, an audience or

14:12

something? So I did

14:14

not personally take, we didn't have

14:16

character design at the time. I think maybe

14:19

that RISD offers something like that now.

14:22

But yeah, we didn't have any kind

14:24

of animation focused classes.

14:26

But I learned a lot of just fundamental kind

14:29

of things. I mostly focused

14:31

on painting and kind of

14:34

almost more like storybook sequential

14:36

art. But that all

14:38

fed into my understanding of art

14:40

direction and storyboarding and

14:43

stuff like that. Character design, it's

14:45

funny, it was the first job I had though, coming

14:48

out of school. So I sort of learned a

14:50

lot of the fundamentals I'm talking about on the

14:52

job. And this

14:55

will sound weird, maybe.

14:57

I didn't love drawing as much

14:59

in school. I was much

15:01

more into painting. And

15:04

I just wasn't someone who I never

15:06

still don't really love sketching and sketchbooks.

15:09

It sounds weird. I just like sketching on

15:11

loose paper. There's something about like committing

15:14

it inside a book. A

15:16

book feels a little too solid. And

15:19

that's how I did all the initial drawings of Avatar.

15:21

They were all on loose leaf paper

15:24

at work at Nickelodeon. So

15:26

it's something that's, I still do this. I'm 47 now.

15:29

I still do this. Do not send

15:32

him sketchbooks. Don't do it. I

15:34

have this stack of sketchbooks where I've

15:37

started the first five to ten pages

15:39

and then I find them whenever I'm

15:41

moving, which is frequent. And

15:44

I'm always like... And nothing, anything. Oh

15:46

yeah. I had high

15:48

hopes for this one and then it fizzles out. It

15:50

actually makes me feel so much better because I am

15:52

not that much of a, I'm not a great drawer,

15:54

which we know. I'm also not a great drawer. We

15:57

had Lauren Montgomery on the show. Very great

15:59

drawer. Very hard and was

16:01

such a great instructor and it this

16:03

sort of crash course into how to draw

16:05

for example Hey, you did a great job

16:10

I did a great job mine Look like

16:12

he had a five o'clock shadow because I

16:14

kept trying to draw the circle over and

16:16

over again I know very it goes bad

16:18

very fast even a simple design, but we

16:20

did get Yeah, I pick up

16:22

some tips today because great job No No, because

16:25

there's a thing when you're saying autographs every now

16:27

and then cuz they're always like can you sketch

16:29

suga? in my book You

16:31

know cuz it's I guess it's like Communicating their art

16:34

with mine and I'm like I get it

16:36

But I suck at drawing and then I

16:38

start to start to get you draw and

16:40

then I'm going what am I drawing? I'm

16:43

drawing nothing. I'm drunk, but but something

16:45

but again bringing it back I

16:48

want to be clear like having drawing skills

16:50

is certainly important

16:52

yeah when trying to be a

16:54

professional character designer, but It's

16:57

not everything and and and

17:00

again There's a having

17:02

a design sense and

17:04

talking about the kind of

17:06

like understanding the recipe understanding

17:08

the ingredients You

17:10

can actually be a good a great designer

17:13

who who doesn't quite have The

17:15

drafts persons like highest level of skills

17:18

you typically then you would want

17:20

someone who is good at that to

17:23

interpret Right, but something you said Dante

17:25

going back to the sharing

17:27

the performance thing you see

17:29

this a lot a common

17:31

exercise in animation school is

17:33

to take a piece of

17:35

found dialogue usually from a

17:37

famous movie and to Animate

17:40

a new performance to it with a

17:42

usually with a sometimes hand-drawn right 2d

17:45

animation or I more often these days

17:47

see students do this

17:49

with you know 3d character and Silhouettes

17:52

are I'm not you

17:54

know I'm not like a scientist

17:57

or a doctor, but you know I think the

17:59

way We recognize things with our eyes first

18:01

thing you see is a silhouette. It's sort

18:04

of the graphic impact of someone

18:08

Richard Williams a great animator in his book

18:10

talks about You

18:13

could not have your glasses on

18:15

and your friend is down the street

18:17

walking. He's talking about our movement And

18:20

you but you know, it's your you know, you know, it's your

18:22

friend because you know the way they move, you know

18:25

I think that extends also to Just

18:27

your silhouette. I just before I see

18:30

what you're wearing or I just

18:32

know it's you You know and I know it's you

18:34

and and so you want the silhouette

18:36

of the characters to Pop

18:39

in that way. We typically

18:41

in TV

18:43

animation you're often seeing

18:46

shoulder up Shots

18:48

of your shirt, right? So you want to make sure

18:50

that their hair? Totally silhouette.

18:53

Yeah, or lack thereof is The

18:57

gang has very distinct hair. Yeah, and

18:59

a gang member, you know And obviously

19:01

most of the time has a shaved

19:03

head, but he has the most graphic

19:05

of all. Yeah He's got this arrow on his head. So

19:07

so Saka,

19:10

you know the little ponytail. Yeah, we

19:12

just I think that's a consideration we

19:14

often talk about or you know We'll

19:16

be like oh It

19:18

looks cool. This character kind of has that hair,

19:20

you know, oh this character sort of has that

19:23

that Armor, you

19:25

know or something and we you know, we might

19:27

just try to break it up Oh,

19:29

am I mistaken or aren't the opening credits of

19:31

the show kind of all about silhouettes? Yeah,

19:35

that was like a reference to the kind

19:37

of Shaw Brothers Totally

19:39

classic thing. But yeah, it's so Within

19:42

the world of Avatar. We obviously have

19:44

these different elemental cultures So

19:47

there's there's also the like, okay,

19:49

there's this character But then now I

19:52

want to know that they're associated with fire. I

19:54

want to know they're associated with air. So Again

19:58

without having like oh we can do really

20:01

complex patterns and all these things, stuff

20:04

that we just can't do in 2D, or

20:07

it gets distracting if we try, then

20:10

it's like, all right, well, we're gonna

20:12

use these palettes, we're gonna reserve these colors

20:14

for this culture, and

20:17

then also just shapes, oh, okay, fire

20:19

stuff's gonna be kinda pointy and curl

20:21

upward, then it can

20:24

fire earth, we're gonna keep stuff more square

20:27

and broader, and

20:30

focus more on greens and earth tones and

20:33

water, obviously. So you just start to set

20:35

up these sort of motifs that you can,

20:37

if you're, once you get into the

20:40

world, you just, you

20:42

don't have to know the show, but when

20:44

you're in the first episode, you

20:46

know Sokka and Katara are from the

20:49

same culture, and when Aimee pops

20:51

up, he's not only not from that culture,

20:53

he's not from that region, he's not dressed

20:55

for it. And

20:57

his colors really stand out, and

21:00

so that's all part of the storytelling as

21:02

well. Totally. We

21:09

took it all, we brought

21:11

them to our land, and

21:14

end the night. Ember

21:16

hot and icy, the

21:19

rage of the earth, we

21:21

made this course, and

21:25

now, through all the locks, we

21:27

cannot see, we are not but

21:29

she did, and yet,

21:31

what will I become? Senua

21:34

saga, Hellblade 2. Play

21:36

it now with Game Pass. Well,

21:44

in 2, like, you

21:46

put it in a way that feels

21:48

both simple and complex, because in my mind

21:50

too, I'm thinking, you're thinking

21:53

about the color, you're thinking about the shape,

21:55

but you're also bringing in those influences from,

21:57

you know, first people.

21:59

First Nations and the Chinese

22:02

culture and finding ways

22:04

to incorporate the kind of natural

22:07

geometry of the element that you're

22:09

talking about, but also seeing how

22:12

some of that pre-existing stuff ends

22:14

up folding so nicely into some

22:16

of the armor

22:18

and stuff. I feel like fits the description of,

22:20

yes, this is kind of... Fire. Yeah,

22:23

it sort of mimics fire, but was that

22:25

what Chinese warriors were thinking when they designed

22:27

that necessarily, or was that just one of

22:30

those things where you really start to see

22:32

the collective conscious even across

22:35

centuries of, wow, this actually really works when

22:37

you put these things together. Yeah, I

22:39

mean, when you're dealing with

22:41

humans, there's in martial

22:44

arts or yoga or dance, the

22:47

end of the day, there are only

22:49

so many kind of geometries that our

22:51

bodies tend to make and

22:54

not tip over, sort of strong shapes. And

22:59

then with armor,

23:02

across all cultures, all

23:04

eras, there's certain commonalities of

23:07

like, well, the arm needs

23:09

to move around if I'm going to be able to

23:11

use a weapon and travel and

23:13

not just be in a ceremonial suit

23:15

of armor. So

23:19

there are just these kind of

23:21

commonalities across cultures. And

23:24

then again, we have

23:27

to boil things down for 2D animation and

23:29

make it something that can be replicated, drawn.

23:32

I mean, Zuko's costume is actually like

23:34

his armor. For

23:36

2D, especially at that

23:39

time, it had too many

23:41

lines. It's

23:43

not super simple. There's a lot of trim because

23:46

we wanted the armor to be dark, but then

23:48

you add this red trim to make it pop.

23:50

Oh, I cosplayed them and made that armor out

23:52

of foam and it was hard. Too

23:55

many lines. I'm going to agree with you. Too

23:57

many lines of the thing. I think probably it's been made out of foam

23:59

in real life. That effective is our and then you know,

24:01

yeah, we we especially With

24:05

avatar we were certainly drawing inspiration

24:08

from you know, real world cultures,

24:10

but Yeah, we

24:12

always had to kind of simplify it and

24:14

then certain things we were you know, like Zuko's

24:18

armor the Fire Nation armor in the end I

24:20

mean initially we were pulling from specific cultures in

24:22

the end We just were like we just wanted

24:24

to kind of have a vibe of Of

24:27

fire. Yeah, and it's vaguely Reminiscent

24:31

of existing things but it really

24:34

it wasn't You know

24:36

wasn't super specific to some things. Yeah,

24:38

some some some outfits some

24:40

costumes some sets of armor were much

24:43

more directly pulled from

24:45

real life inspiration others weren't we're

24:47

a little more a little more

24:50

Inspired by and then just kind of yeah I

24:53

love the scope you're talking about because I think

24:55

of actors, you know We're really slaves to the

24:57

moment. Our job is to kind of be fine

24:59

human in this one moment We were so involved

25:01

the moment and then talking about the designer how

25:03

you're really seeing the scope of the

25:06

world, which we're not always Involving

25:08

our it's not our job. Like I'm not worried

25:10

about all the stuff I'm worried about like why

25:12

I'm sorry for this moment that happened And so

25:14

it's great to see the scope of like a

25:17

different idea. Oh, yeah, you're thinking about all the

25:20

Other stuff that that influences what

25:22

we're doing obviously, but it's

25:24

wonderful to kind of see that recipe of how it's working Yeah,

25:27

I did, you know, I was the art director on

25:29

the first series and and on Cora I

25:32

shared those duties on Cora with Ryu and

25:34

Joaquin for the first season and then I

25:36

kind of took over as They

25:39

you know, we just sort of divided and

25:42

conquered and

25:44

yeah, I mean I'm as an

25:46

art director as co-creator and EP of the

25:48

show with Mike like I

25:51

am always thinking and we are always thinking

25:53

about like the overall impact of this. Yeah

25:56

So To talk about the evolution

25:58

of avatar specifically. Like

26:00

I. Yeah. I I.

26:03

Was. Not really focus on character

26:05

design and school, I was much

26:07

more into environments as into landscape

26:09

painting, urban kind of. Nocturnal

26:12

painting and stuff. And and

26:14

it wasn't until. I

26:16

got into. My first job as

26:18

a character designer on Family Guy. Where.

26:20

It was a very limited style. You

26:23

know we didn't have a lot of

26:25

lines to play with him when it

26:27

did. One. Of the first things

26:29

I did. Think. It

26:31

is A this was to get the job. This

26:33

is my test to get the job. They were

26:35

having trouble. Getting. A

26:37

likeness of Kristy Mcnichol. To

26:41

seven it after up and much

26:43

in the family. Guy in our

26:45

family guys that were eyes are

26:47

perfect circles and was.you know it's

26:49

it's hard to get people to.

26:51

I limit line today minded and

26:53

I'd did it. As an

26:55

elite at us to the you

26:57

know standards of the the Art

27:00

director. And. But

27:02

so working on that shit, I worked on it for

27:04

six months at a did. Six. Episodes

27:07

I think it is a hundred characters

27:09

per episode. Let's like a crash course.

27:11

no kidding. In and screen learning about

27:13

the economy of line and what you're

27:16

communicating and how to get. A.

27:18

Lightness of someone in a very limited

27:20

style ending. And I think it's not

27:22

just like. Oh, these are the

27:24

limitations. I mean, I think these limitations

27:26

are good. Limited pallets. Austen.

27:29

Produce better work. you know in his in

27:31

music. Hey we're only going to use these

27:33

instrumental in paint. We're only in a painting

27:35

rolling in his his colors. Photography.

27:38

We're only going to do black and white. What

27:40

can you say with just value, you know? So.

27:43

Does. That those kinds of limitations actually

27:45

can make worked stronger makes it more

27:47

potent, right? You're not. Every little

27:49

line and. Doodad. That

27:52

you're adding, it's adding more information

27:54

the brain has to process. So

27:56

Balboa Anyways, So. That family

27:58

guy crash course and then. working

28:00

on Mission

28:02

Hill and in King of the Hill

28:04

and then invader Zim which had a

28:07

really really fun Design style

28:09

and you know, I learned a

28:11

ton over those first four

28:13

years in my career And

28:16

did a little bit of character design, you

28:19

know, and then was the art director on Zim so

28:21

I was I was for the second season so

28:23

I had like working

28:26

with designers and Generating

28:28

some on my own like does and

28:30

seeing it come back in animation works

28:33

what doesn't you know? That's part of it, too

28:36

so when I got to avatar On

28:40

Zim I was getting back into

28:42

anime and So

28:45

it's really inspired by what I was seeing

28:47

with like foodie-cootie and cowboy bebop. Okay, so

28:50

when we started avatar You

28:52

know the initial Idea

28:54

was not let's do an anime

28:57

style anime inspired show that that

28:59

came very Soon

29:01

after but it wasn't the

29:03

like inception of the idea. It

29:05

was just responding to a

29:07

prompt from Eric Coleman For

29:10

what Nickelodeon was looking for at that time. We

29:13

pretty once we realized Oh martial

29:15

arts We were like, well,

29:17

let's make you know, we wanted it

29:19

to sort of be inspired

29:21

by Asian cinema

29:24

and traditional Asian martial

29:26

arts and Then we

29:28

were like, why don't we make it

29:30

an anime show and here was our idea This

29:33

was our reasoning. Okay. Hey, we were

29:35

you know, I was particularly particularly inspired

29:37

by that stuff at that time, but

29:40

We thought let's pick a

29:43

style that's established That

29:45

way it'll be easier for people to draw

29:48

because I was working on them Which was

29:50

really really cool design, but people had such

29:52

a hard time Drawing that

29:55

style because it was idiosyncratic. It was out

29:57

of nowhere. It was right Jonin's style

30:00

Yeah, and no one knew how to draw it

30:02

right like a crew had a hard time with

30:04

it. Hmm. I Am

30:07

a kind of an adaptable artist. That's if I have

30:09

a skill. It's that I can adapt I don't really

30:11

have like a strong like

30:13

this is my smile Yeah But

30:16

that can be very good in animation because you're

30:19

you get these jobs that are six months to two

30:21

years So it's not me knife. You've got a switch

30:23

to a different style American,

30:26

you know Western shows typically

30:28

it's Are very

30:30

often it's just some totally Like

30:34

idiosyncratic style that came out of nowhere.

30:36

It's just someone's thing Whereas

30:38

there's this ongoing tradition now to say

30:41

anime. I mean, there's a Huge

30:44

spectrum of styles, but you

30:46

can kind of pick a neighborhood and hang out in it.

30:48

So that was our thought This

30:50

has not panned out. I can tell you 20 years

30:52

later It's a

30:54

more complicated Style for people

30:57

because it it often involves you

30:59

need to know anatomy really well.

31:01

It's not cartoony it's actually just

31:03

streamlined realistic anatomy, right and Not

31:06

a people go into animation because they're like, I don't want to deal

31:08

with it Like I'm not trying to be

31:10

me a couple circle. I'm gonna do a Flinstone

31:13

guy where the beams tubes

31:16

and yeah, and then the other thing

31:18

was Especially in 2002 things

31:20

are different now, but in 2002 here and

31:22

you know in Southern, California Anime

31:27

was it was gaining in popularity, but

31:29

it was still pretty niche and super

31:31

niche people Especially in the

31:33

animation might be into it but finding people

31:36

who were proficient in drawing that style was

31:40

next to impossible here

31:43

and then We ran into all

31:45

this stuff. Oh, we'll work with the studios

31:47

who do this animation, you know And

31:50

at that time the Japanese studios

31:52

were not interested in working with And

31:55

I could we could do we can do

31:57

a 12 series. They're like know about that

32:00

We're good. I have a lot of things to

32:02

discuss about that But

32:04

we won't get into that now. See you

32:06

then see you for that you know the

32:08

more traditional route is for US studios is

32:10

working with Korean animation studios and There

32:13

are many Korean studios that work

32:15

with the Japanese studios so

32:18

we're like, oh we'll work with them because

32:20

they work with the Japanese artists doing these

32:22

styles and and They

32:24

are like yeah, but those artists we have them

32:27

to work on the Japanese stuff. We're not giving you

32:29

those artists I got it. So we

32:32

ran into that a lot And

32:34

then it's you know, it's a more difficult style for

32:36

a lot of people even if they are familiar with it

32:39

It's just it's again. There's a

32:41

level of sophistication because the clothing is actually

32:43

quite Naturalistic the way

32:45

it folds the way it flows hair

32:47

is everything So

32:51

then you start to see why maybe characters

32:53

have spiky hair and and you

32:56

know, blah blah blah, so That

32:59

was how we ended up there. Here's the other thing.

33:01

I didn't I was not proficient in the style But

33:04

again, I can adapt I'm pretty adaptable,

33:06

but I was really I said

33:09

this before I Was

33:11

really aware of not wanting to just

33:13

copy. Hmm. Like sure I loved foodie-coo

33:15

tea and I had the whatever books

33:17

I could get on it at the

33:19

time But

33:21

I was like if we just copy

33:23

that like we're just counterfeits. All right,

33:26

we're just past Even if it would

33:28

look better, it would look cooler slicker

33:30

more stylish more legit I

33:32

was like that's just not

33:34

authentic that didn't seem to be

33:36

coming from the heart and from

33:39

and we wanted to very clearly

33:41

be Inspired by anime,

33:43

but I was really conscious about Not

33:46

just lifting Some

33:49

pre-existing style so it that sort of contradicts what

33:51

I was saying I was like we wanted to

33:53

stay in that neighborhood, but I thought I'm

33:55

gonna do my spin on it Tell me and when

33:59

and there are a thing Looking back,

34:01

there are choices I made that I've

34:03

just like, uh, like could have

34:05

copied a little more. You know, like could

34:07

have made this a little better.

34:10

And then there's one. Design-wise

34:12

or story-wise? Yes, style-wise. Style-wise,

34:14

style-wise. Like overall, but the

34:16

number one thing that

34:18

I regret on, Avatog the

34:20

Last Airbender, we changed this on Korra, but

34:23

as the size of their heads compared to the rest

34:25

of their bodies. Bigger or smaller,

34:27

what are we talking about? I'm not trying

34:30

to throw Mike under the bus. This was just

34:32

the discussion back then. Here we go. Mike

34:36

was used to Bigger Head. He

34:38

had been out here working in animation in the US

34:40

long, you know, in Southern

34:42

California longer than I had, because he was two

34:44

years ahead of me. I

34:46

think he was used to Bigger Head characters.

34:49

Okay. And if

34:51

you look, like I was doing all these

34:53

analyses of like, Fudicudi and stuff, and like,

34:57

you look at like Cowboy Bebop,

34:59

they are many heads tall. Like

35:01

they are really like, our spike

35:03

is like a lanky, very, his

35:06

head is tiny compared to his body. And

35:09

that was not common in

35:12

most American animation at the time.

35:15

And when I did a breakdown of like the Fudicudi

35:17

proportions, like Nauta, I don't know, I think he's

35:19

like 14. So he wasn't

35:21

too much older than Aang. And

35:24

I did like a version of my

35:26

style, but in that height, and Mike's like, it's

35:28

just too, they look, he looks too old. You

35:31

know, and so

35:34

we, I'm not, again, I'm not putting it

35:36

all on bike, but we were sort of like, okay, we're gonna make

35:38

the heads bigger. Bigger heads.

35:41

And I want to be clear, there was a

35:43

version with the bigger head that would have looked

35:45

better that I wouldn't regret. Right. I just didn't

35:47

know how to kind of

35:49

dial it all in and get it to look good.

35:52

So when I watch the old show or I

35:54

look at the old model sheets, I mean, I

35:56

am just cringing. Big head. You always talk about

35:58

that. It is so hard. What if

36:00

the head start getting smaller? I

36:03

mean the thing is Jm animation

36:05

they tended to shift the proportions

36:07

more towards on E. May and

36:10

because each studio sort We worked with

36:12

three studios on the show and each

36:14

studio had their own sort of ways

36:17

of interpreting the model sheets Yeah, and

36:19

the the jm versions were were definitely

36:21

better So they sort of made the

36:24

adaptation in a sense without you even yeah,

36:26

no way you're planning that yeah So there

36:28

are examples in the show that look good

36:30

if you flip to the model sheet like

36:33

shim I just saw shim foo's model sheet

36:35

the other day I mean it looks like

36:37

someone scaled his lower body down like I've

36:43

never thought about head size and I'm thinking about

36:45

other characters I have played think about some other

36:47

characters you played in American animation. They

36:49

got big heads. Yeah Well, they had

36:52

a TV and like, you know, yeah

36:54

Oh the all that so much merchandise

36:56

like we we continue to

36:58

blow their heads up We'd like the bigger heads

37:00

the Americans like big heads But let me

37:03

be so this goes further than

37:05

that So I regret it and

37:07

I and I do think there was a better version

37:09

of it than I did That's why I want to

37:11

write right right not trying to throw Mike under the

37:13

bus No throwing Mike DeMartino over the I was the

37:15

art director. Ultimately. It was up to me to make

37:17

it look good And I was

37:19

the primary character designer in the early,

37:22

you know, the early developmental stages But

37:24

Ryan's fought you guys I'm gonna say that in the

37:27

camera right now, but despite

37:29

my reservations my regrets

37:32

and how I look at it I And

37:35

I was this is kind of why I made the choice

37:37

I was aware that there were slicker

37:39

more stylish Anime, right King

37:41

shows out there at the time and I was

37:44

like, I don't want this to be too

37:46

slick We don't want it to look

37:48

too flashy, right

37:51

and now that's why I didn't mind sort

37:53

of injecting my kind of like awkward

37:56

less fashionable version of

37:58

it. Yeah And I

38:00

actually think that the awkwardness

38:02

and the less slick look has added

38:05

to its charm. And I think it

38:07

makes it a little more approachable for

38:09

a lot of people. Yeah. Whereas

38:13

some shows that are, some anime shows that

38:16

are gorgeous, it's so

38:18

slick that I think it's sort of, it's

38:20

almost like high fashion. It keeps people out.

38:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally, totally. But there

38:24

are moments, that being said, there are moments

38:26

in Avatar where we get to some real

38:29

anime, We were trying. High level stuff, we're

38:31

like, oh, they're going for it. Ooh, they're

38:33

going for it. And then in Korra, we

38:35

very deliberately, I mean, day one, I was

38:37

like, their heads are gonna be

38:39

smaller. My head, they're gonna be taller. And

38:42

we did that. Taller, smaller head,

38:44

yeah. But here's where we come

38:46

back to the character design

38:48

being part of the tone and the storytelling.

38:50

It changed the tone. And

38:53

we were aware, we were actually going for

38:55

a bit older of a show and a

38:57

little more adult, a little darker, in

39:01

some cases a lot darker. And it's

39:03

less goofy. Yeah,

39:06

it's less tall. It's less approachable.

39:09

It is a little sleeker

39:11

and sexier. It's just like,

39:13

okay, so it's

39:16

an interesting balance. And

39:19

would I just go back and give Korra proportions

39:23

on Avatar? But

39:25

there's things I would do differently. But at the end of

39:28

the day, it's like, we've

39:30

been editing it for

39:32

the Symphonic concert,

39:35

especially book one. Oh, you're still giving it. It's

39:37

really hard for me to watch. The big heads.

39:40

And it's like the awkward. And

39:43

then you're critical of the martial arts animation. But mix and

39:45

plus, I think so much for both. All of it, all of

39:47

it. But at the same time, I

39:49

have to recognize it still

39:51

connects. Of course. And

39:55

so those are important things to keep in

39:57

mind, I think as artists and designers is

39:59

like. You

40:01

know sleeker and fancier more

40:04

stylish actually isn't always there

40:07

It sometimes it's good to have a little bit

40:09

of kind of goofy I

40:12

also gonna put point out awkward charm in

40:14

there Hey Mike's not

40:17

here, but and myself being a bigger

40:19

headed person Bigger

40:22

head then you have a smaller

40:25

head. It's medium medium medium

40:28

So I'm actually point that I don't know.

40:30

I don't know how they do is that I'm

40:32

just putting up. Uh-huh interesting Like I'm putting

40:34

myself in the bigger head yourself a bigger

40:36

head. Yeah May just

40:38

have a bigger head. I was just you know, Mike

40:40

is so sick of hearing me whine about it But

40:46

it's been interesting for me because actually

40:48

there are some shows I'm

40:50

trying to think even some more

40:52

recent productions out of Japan that I've really

40:54

enjoyed and I'm like Actually kind

40:57

of quit quite big heads, but it's

40:59

like they did a better They did a

41:01

conversation between you and Mike they did a

41:03

better job of like the neck length Shoulder

41:06

widths than I did and I've just you know,

41:08

these are the things that keep me awake at

41:10

night well one of the things that as

41:12

I keep coming back to you doing this podcast

41:14

which is So which is

41:17

kind of strange to me is I

41:19

feel like my brain is sort of

41:21

bisected and that on one hand What

41:24

I love about it is breaking all this down

41:26

and talking about it and really being

41:28

that fan who's on the inside of it and

41:30

Understanding how it all came to be and choices

41:32

that were made and recognizing. Yes a choice was

41:35

made here Brian now maybe thinks it could have

41:37

been a different choice along with

41:39

the The person in me

41:41

who even as I am watching the episode

41:43

multiple times to prepare our outline for our

41:45

show on Some

41:47

level the avatar has always

41:49

existed the avatar verse has always

41:52

existed It was just there

41:54

like the marble that got carved underneath

41:56

was the design all the time, right?

41:58

and I think That

42:01

is a tribute to what does work about it is

42:03

in some ways I can pick away

42:05

at this all I want and feel like I'm

42:07

getting more and more to the bottom of how

42:09

it all came to Be and some on some

42:11

level there is a part of my brain that

42:13

refuses to accept any of it And it's like

42:16

no it was all just there and you guys

42:18

found it and you know what I mean like

42:20

yeah They those things like you tap together and

42:22

timeless for me tail I'm

42:25

covered. I appreciate that. I think that again

42:27

is a It's

42:29

everything we've talked about earlier where it's you're

42:31

making it feel like it's oh

42:33

These people look this way because they're a

42:35

part of this culture their their clothing looks

42:37

this way they style their hair Oh, that's

42:39

different from these people and

42:41

you just I think we

42:44

as humans like to organize things and Categorize

42:47

things and and when you give these

42:49

very clear kind of

42:51

visual these These

42:53

sort of visual attributes that

42:56

then pair with like oh, it's earth

42:58

It's a culture is inspired by earth

43:00

and earth is strong and stubborn and

43:02

right? Oh, it's fire And that that

43:05

you know it's very dynamic and and

43:07

they're they're they're you know a dynamic

43:11

Motivated people and you know and this isn't

43:13

based on any real-world culture this right here

43:15

Just like right like let's use the element

43:17

as a sort of foundation for these different

43:19

cultures I Have

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you ever used cheapo air for years

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they okay so not to toot my

44:02

own horn but to bring this full

44:04

circle like the goofiness the Kind

44:07

of rough edges around the especially

44:09

the earlier animation actually,

44:11

it's also a testament to

44:13

the design and not the

44:16

Style or the drawing right?

44:18

Right, right because sometimes in

44:20

some cases the design looked

44:22

quite pretty cool And

44:24

then the animation interpretation fell short

44:27

And you know, it just happens

44:29

productions hard and sometimes the episodes

44:31

challenging or you don't get Maybe

44:34

the top tier artists add like freelance

44:37

out. But anyways Everything

44:39

I was talking about the strength of the

44:41

recipe the design. Yeah, I think that still

44:43

shines through Yeah, and I often when I'm

44:45

talking to designers now, I'm like

44:48

the multiple projects were working on Like

44:51

I'm not trying to put the cart before the horse

44:53

But sometimes I'll say with a design like can you

44:55

see someone? Cosplaying this

44:58

like I'm not trying to design things just so

45:00

people can cost right but I'm like but I'm

45:02

like if someone if you walked into a convention

45:04

floor and Someone was wearing

45:07

this costume. Would you know what right?

45:09

Eric? It was right because Now

45:12

you've drank gone from a fan a

45:14

you know fantasy Interpretation

45:17

of a human that's impossible right

45:20

to a flesh and blood human who's

45:23

probably different proportions and and

45:26

you know and now you've

45:28

taken this graphic interpretation of

45:32

clothing and hair and armor and whatever

45:34

and you've put it on a person

45:36

is that recipe

45:39

strong enough that Or

45:42

would you just go? I don't know what that is. Are they

45:44

in a costume? Show or

45:46

some game. I don't know the recipes that

45:48

are good at the amount of comic I

45:50

go to I could see the character not even dressed the

45:52

way the character supposed to be they can just wear certain

45:54

things gender bent Another

45:57

in another reality I'm

46:00

like, oh, the recipe is so strong.

46:02

They're taking the recipe and they're putting

46:05

it in all different kinds of world. You're like,

46:07

I get it. Yeah. Like, sometimes

46:10

there's stuff that is seems. Dare

46:13

I say, and I think this is risky because

46:15

to your point, you can't task yourself with creating

46:17

something that's never been seen before because that you'll

46:19

never do anything because that's not the world we

46:21

live in. But then you also see stuff that

46:23

feels it starts to approach derivative to the point

46:25

where like, I have mistaken characters for characters from

46:27

other things. Very true. And people are like, yeah,

46:29

people say that this character does look a little

46:32

bit like blah, blah, blah from five years

46:34

before that. Like, you know, we're all,

46:36

we're all inspired. Some things are

46:38

just, you grow up on it and

46:40

you don't know that it has sort of formed,

46:43

you know, your aesthetic or, or your

46:45

kind of like reference points for things.

46:47

Um, and then there are like,

46:50

you just didn't remember that you saw that

46:53

thing. And then there, then there are like,

46:55

I know I am paying homage to that

46:57

thing. You know, there's a grading,

46:59

there's a scale, there's a real scale there.

47:01

But I, I, again, like I'm very,

47:04

whereas I can be as

47:06

self-deprecating as like,

47:09

I can go on and on about everything

47:11

that I would do differently. You think? Things

47:13

that I've, but I, I,

47:15

I actually am quite proud of

47:18

the, the designs and, and, um,

47:20

how well they translate across,

47:22

you know, to costumes, to

47:25

plush, to chibi, to cookies,

47:27

you know, like whatever it is. You've

47:30

also played with so much design as we're looking back

47:32

and going through the books and you know, you're seeing

47:34

the book of water and then the book of earth.

47:36

Now we're in the book of fire and you get

47:38

to see all these characters from different places wearing different,

47:40

because they go, now we're all in Boston, now we're

47:42

wearing earth stuff. And then now they're on the fire

47:44

nation, you get to see everybody. And it's kind of

47:47

crazy how you're playing with the design within

47:49

the world. Yeah. And it's like, wow, they

47:51

really, this is crazy. That was super fun.

47:53

So, you know, tough. Oh, we want to

47:55

keep the bun, but like the hair, you

47:57

know, her headband. Oh, that's going to be

47:59

pointy. And Katara, oh, like

48:02

still like referencing the silhouettes that

48:05

they're known for, but like a

48:07

different spin. Yeah, as a designer,

48:09

that stuff is always super fun

48:11

because it's fun to

48:13

like refresh the look and you know. But

48:16

you also, you share that, you actually share

48:18

that transition with the audience in the headband,

48:20

right? I mean, you actually, where we actually

48:22

see like, oh, this is like this, this

48:24

is like this, like you see the sort

48:26

of stripping away of like, well, I can't

48:28

wear this here, but and

48:31

so people get to be a part

48:33

of that transition in a way that

48:35

feels like, you know, yes, it makes

48:37

sense for the purposes of understanding, like

48:39

getting to getting used to them wearing their

48:42

far nation clothes. Yes, it makes sense so

48:44

that they stay recognizable from a very

48:46

practical standpoint, but it also to me

48:49

feels like, again, you're on the inside

48:51

of it. There's a sense of the

48:53

show itself kind of winking at the

48:55

audience and saying like, hey, we're going

48:57

to show you like how these

49:00

things are still going to work within the design of the

49:02

character that you've come to understand and that you've come all

49:04

the way here with, you know, which

49:06

is great. I love it. To

49:08

your test, submit your designs and storytelling blends

49:10

and plot designs have influenced everything. A lot

49:12

of stuff afterwards where there's so many things

49:15

that I do, both audition for were like,

49:17

oh, and they were very clear

49:19

about we're doing an avatar esque, right?

49:22

Whatever you want to say the show is in

49:24

space or in with these

49:26

particular characters like, okay, that's cool.

49:28

I mean, if we've if we

49:30

have permeated, you know,

49:33

culture in that way, I can only

49:35

be flattered and that's cool because obviously, it's

49:38

not like Mike and I and everyone we worked with. We're

49:41

all nerds and fans and and

49:43

just, you know, we love storytelling and

49:46

artwork and and

49:48

I'm still inspired by tons

49:50

of I'm inspired by artists half my age,

49:52

you know, and not inspired

49:56

by AI and not

49:58

not. What about if you want to get

50:00

real creeped out real quick? Yeah, not excited

50:03

or encouraged by what that's

50:05

doing and the prospect

50:08

for art

50:10

students right now and

50:13

young artists as execs

50:17

and these tech companies

50:19

are looking to just phase out

50:21

this beautiful

50:25

craft and

50:27

skill and art form. So

50:30

that, not excited, but if a

50:32

living breathing artist was inspired by

50:34

anything that my friends and I

50:36

and colleagues did, I'm

50:39

flattered. Yeah, I run into

50:41

them every day. Oh,

50:43

for sure. And we talk to

50:45

them on the show. I mean, we have people who are

50:48

incorporating whether it's the

50:50

design into fashion or the way

50:52

they teach martial arts to students

50:55

or teach stuff in

50:57

their classroom using the values that

50:59

they grew up with on

51:01

Avatar. All of that stuff is permeating.

51:03

The permeation is deep. It's deep and wide. It's

51:06

deep and wide. It's more as I can fathom. Like, everything

51:08

is just a... Absolutely. Absolutely. And

51:12

we love that some of the design stuff,

51:14

like if you're in from the jump or

51:16

if you're just getting to know the show,

51:18

there are ways for you to find out

51:20

the history behind some of... This

51:22

is just one example and then we'll wrap up. But

51:25

I love too that you come back to

51:28

things that didn't make it in the first

51:30

round. So in my mind, I'm always wondering,

51:32

like, well, I wonder if there's going to

51:34

be something in the movie that never made

51:36

it to the first series or never made

51:38

it to the core because we know

51:40

that we have Naga from a

51:42

very early sketch way, way

51:44

back in the day. It

51:47

took a handful of years and a whole different series,

51:50

but you found who made it to him. He made

51:52

it. He made it to... She. Sorry.

51:55

I haven't got there yet. We haven't gotten there.

51:57

We haven't gotten there. I can't wait. Yeah.

52:00

the idea of like you're not just like embracing

52:02

something and then you know kind of crumpling that

52:04

up and throwing it away because it's time for

52:06

something different and things all live

52:08

in a continuum. That comes down to one

52:10

of the number

52:12

one pieces of advice I give to

52:14

artists and writers as well save everything.

52:18

Save every doodle, every

52:21

you know story idea. All those loose

52:23

leaf papers. Yeah. Don't judge it's

52:26

if you judge these things in the moment or even

52:28

the next day I think

52:30

you're too close to it and you are oh

52:32

this doesn't look as good as this show I

52:34

was just watching or this artist I just saw

52:36

on Instagram. Don't just

52:39

don't even give yourself that chance just save it and

52:42

because often you'll come

52:44

back to an idea you will forget maybe

52:48

entirely making it so you

52:50

are no longer that close to it

52:52

and judging it and you'll see it

52:54

at least initially you'll see it fresh

52:56

and that is how Avatar happened because

52:58

that first drawing I didn't

53:01

even I barely remember doing it I just I

53:03

started getting into a habit when I was getting

53:05

really burnt out on them pulling

53:08

crazy long days and working weekends

53:10

I was like you know I

53:12

need to start drawing for myself and again I

53:14

told you in college I didn't really draw that

53:16

much. I liked to paint I like to do

53:18

photography I wasn't doing a I

53:20

would draw with ink like pen

53:22

and ink or brush and ink but I wasn't doing

53:24

like a lot of like animation

53:27

style drawing so I just

53:29

started like actually kind of

53:31

finding my own style for the first time

53:33

and I would just say hey even

53:36

though it's late give myself 30 minutes to an hour

53:38

to just stay and draw for myself and I would

53:40

just keep a stack up on the shelf

53:43

I would just finish the drawing I was bleary-eyed

53:45

I needed to get home safely I would just

53:47

put it on the stack and

53:49

go and so I wasn't even really looking at

53:51

drawings and then when Mike and I we were

53:54

like hey let's let's develop a show

53:56

together let's pitch it and and Eric

53:59

we were working on something But Eric before

54:01

even seeing it was like oh, it's not you know,

54:03

we're not looking for that type of thing right now

54:05

I didn't even pitch it He's

54:08

like we're looking for it a B and C Just

54:10

grab that stack of paper came

54:13

over to Mike's and we just we literally put

54:15

everything out on his kitchen table Just what do

54:17

we have and there was stuff that was super

54:19

cute and like animal Characters there

54:21

was stuff that was you know, it kind

54:23

of ran the gamut And there

54:25

was that drawing that I'm just like, what is this?

54:28

You know, I had I had come home and found

54:30

it right, right Oh, yeah, I can't remember doing this

54:33

and then did the version of it where Ang

54:35

was younger but again, that's

54:37

one of my biggest pieces of advice for folks is

54:39

like You'll

54:42

find just found some stuff

54:44

unpacking some boxes From

54:46

four years ago where I was like, I

54:48

don't even remember writing this but it's my handwriting Yeah,

54:52

save it save everything. It doesn't have

54:54

to be illustration save your writing say

54:57

Save those tiny little ideas because I agree with

54:59

you if you don't get it out there It

55:01

can't ever evolve into something right or stay the

55:03

same But to your point we don't

55:05

even even when you think you're being objective

55:07

and you're like, I know I'm not too

55:09

close to this I just know it stinks.

55:11

It's like you aren't seeing it clearly at

55:14

all or it might give you a different idea later Partner

55:17

that you're working with might go. Oh, I

55:19

see that one sentence. That's a really funny

55:21

weird concept Whatever you intended now, I have

55:23

this idea if you made it there is

55:25

a reason why you made it Yeah, and

55:28

if you made something David, these are the

55:30

things that humans and not AI Algorithms,

55:33

you know that that differentiate us and

55:35

yes and that make us Unique

55:38

as creators and storytellers, right? And

55:40

and we are all we're all

55:42

reflecting our life

55:44

experience back as storytellers and performers

55:46

and artists like we are reflecting

55:49

back a set of values told

55:51

and and so

55:54

reflecting your own perspective

55:57

flawed and limited though it may

55:59

be is legitimate and and

56:01

so yeah keep all your scraps keep

56:03

your scraps yeah I love it

56:05

Brian thank you so much thanks for

56:08

having me always always amazing conversation

56:10

yeah we it's great talking

56:12

we're so excited for all the things

56:15

that's happening like me like

56:17

everyone listening is gonna see how big the

56:19

head how big the heads are the new

56:21

things coming out of questions for things I

56:23

haven't even seen yet that are in the

56:25

avatar verse I'm like talk about saving your

56:27

scrap I like remember to ask about it when the

56:29

movie finally comes out well I can't

56:31

obviously give any specifics but I can

56:33

just say the thing that I have

56:35

personally been working on the past several months

56:37

yes it's been very heavily involved in

56:39

character design and it's a new direction for

56:42

the avatar verse and I didn't originate

56:44

it I there was an artist I

56:46

was a fan of and we contacted

56:48

and the

56:50

first drawings that

56:52

he put down I was like that's it and

56:56

the heads are quite large but large

56:59

large by large by

57:01

avatar standard I'm so so

57:06

excited about this style it's not my style but

57:08

it is one that I just cannot wait to

57:10

it okay well there's gonna be so much to talk

57:12

about when it's all out in the world we can

57:14

do that until then Brian

57:17

yes one of our two dads thank you so

57:19

much so much saving the element pleasure save

57:21

your scraps everybody all

57:25

right thanks for tuning into this episode

57:27

of avatar breathing the element you

57:30

can also follow the

57:32

official avatar breathing the elements

57:34

accounts on TikTok

57:40

at avatar official podcast

57:43

tell your fellow avatar friends to listen

57:45

rate and follow the podcast on Apple

57:47

podcast this podcast is hosted by

57:49

Janet Varney and Dante Bosco the theme song

57:51

was composed and produced by Jeremy Zugerman audio

57:54

production and editing was provided by Zekro Regas

57:56

Thomas and mind jam media avatar braving

57:58

the elements was executive produced by Linus Kestin-Sisler

58:01

produced by Lisa Summerscale-Steeler with consulting producer

58:03

Janet Varney with production support from Kira

58:05

Chow and special thanks to Avatar Studios,

58:07

Garrett Beltis and Danielle Pressfield-Demchick. Trademark

58:10

copyright and phone record 2023 Viacom

58:12

International Incorporated, all rights reserved. This

58:14

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