0:19

Hello, friends, benders

0:21

and non benders alike, Welcome

0:24

to Braving the Elements, Nickelodeon's

0:26

brand new podcast about all things

0:28

Avatar Verse. I'm Janet Varney,

0:31

I am Dante Bosco, and

0:33

welcome back friends to the second part

0:35

of our triumphant conversation

0:38

with Mike de Martino and Brian Kanetsko,

0:40

who are, of course the brilliant minds behind

0:43

Avatar the Last Airbender and the Legend of Cora.

0:46

So if you haven't listened to

0:48

our second episode ever of Braving the

0:50

Elements, that is the first half of this conversation,

0:53

be sure to check that out first. We

0:55

will be here for the second half

0:57

of the conversation. We'll be right here waiting for you. Don't

0:59

you worry now. In that first

1:01

half of our chat with Mike and Brian,

1:03

we talked about how they met at

1:06

Risdy Rhode Island School of Design. We

1:09

talked about what happened after Risdy

1:11

and how they ended up coming together to work

1:13

on the brilliant idea we

1:15

all know as Avatar the

1:17

Last Airbender, and we started to get

1:20

a little into the process, started

1:22

teasing the conversation about the phenomenal

1:24

artists in Korea who were utilized

1:27

for the show and much much more.

1:29

Okay, let's jump into the second half now,

1:34

Brian, you know you and Mike had

1:36

such a strong vision and

1:38

here you were kind of working outside of

1:40

a traditional Hollywood process.

1:43

Did you have an awareness of that? You know,

1:45

it's a small kind of industry, but

1:47

the more that we have interface with Hollywood

1:49

at large, I've seen there

1:52

is the kind of corporate studio

1:55

sort of like, hey, this is the way it

1:57

is, and if you want to be here by the bright lights, you

2:00

how to put up with this, and that a lot of

2:02

people have to because they

2:04

don't have a lot of other options, and so they

2:06

are knowingly making stuff

2:08

they don't believe in, knowingly doing

2:11

work that is below their ability

2:13

and is cheapened

2:16

intentionally because that they're

2:18

trying to make their trying to write what's popular

2:21

and what's going to get them hired and to

2:23

do it just the standard way. And I don't know, Mike

2:25

and I just we're always

2:28

like could it be better? Could it be better? Not

2:30

just the content, but could we be doing this better?

2:32

Could we be using technology better? Could we

2:34

find better people? Could we train people? Could

2:36

we learn something? Could we so

2:38

we went and tried to learn from the animation

2:41

studio in Korea and

2:44

bring that back. You know, we tried to learn from

2:46

the Korean animation industry

2:49

and bring that back to the U S industry because

2:51

it was so we thought the TV

2:53

side of it was so stagnant, the sitcom

2:56

side, the way they were doing it was it had

2:58

just fallen into this weird process.

3:00

Yeah. It's one of those things too, where it's like certain

3:03

processes work fine for certain kinds

3:05

of shows, or you know, you

3:07

know, for the sitcom shows, like there's

3:10

a way to do it, and for the most part,

3:12

depending on the show, it works. But

3:15

if you're trying to do a

3:17

different kind of show with different

3:19

aesthetic and stuff, you know, you

3:22

kind of need to switch up the process

3:24

a little bit too to get get

3:26

a result you're looking for. So

3:29

yeah, I mean, I think the biggest part that we did was,

3:31

like Bryan said, the putting

3:33

more of the power in the animator's hands, because there's

3:35

stuff that they came up with that even

3:38

though we would do storyboards and give them

3:40

lots of you know, guidance

3:42

on on like what the scene was supposed to be, there so

3:44

many times we were we were pleasantly surprised

3:47

with what came back because it

3:49

was like the animator took that raw

3:51

material and then like put their

3:53

magic on it and made it, made it really

3:56

shine. Yeah, there are some exceptional

3:58

moments you sort of feel

4:00

like it's not that it breaks you out of the action in

4:02

a in a way that is disruptive at all.

4:05

I feel like you can feel the spirit of the

4:07

human being animating enough to say it's

4:09

just one person, but just wonderful

4:11

moments of kind of being smacked but in a greatful

4:14

way, like oh, I need to see that again. And you can

4:16

sort of imagine someone having

4:18

that aha moment of like I know how to make this

4:20

moment in the action sequence pop and

4:23

become something that's his own little magical

4:25

spell that happens. Yeah, I mean that's what was cool

4:27

with getting to know the artists and the animators

4:30

over the years, Like you would start to recognize

4:33

people's work. You would know like oh, I

4:35

think so and so animated this, and

4:37

and some like Unry you are good

4:40

friend, Like you know he was we

4:42

always knew a scene by him. But there were other animators

4:44

too, are fantastic, and people brought

4:46

their like any thing. You know,

4:49

if it was storyboarded by a certain artist, you

4:51

you know, they put their their vibe

4:53

on it and their spin on the characters

4:56

and stuff, and it you know, in

4:58

the end, you know, you try to sort of feel like the

5:00

same show and you don't want to have like a bunch of different

5:02

styles. But but even within that,

5:04

you would I think it came through like the

5:06

different artists interpretations. And

5:09

did you see a creative evolution with the animators

5:11

too, in terms of like stretching a little

5:13

bit more and taking more chances or

5:15

you know, was there was there an evolution like that of like,

5:18

oh you like, I'm so glad you

5:20

went for it. I think they especially

5:23

what was JM animation. And then a

5:25

lot of those core artists moved over

5:27

to form of studio mirror,

5:31

Studio Mirror that we worked with, you know, through Cora

5:33

UM. I think the

5:35

they just sort of like made the characters their own.

5:38

You know, we had our model sheets, but the ideal

5:40

versions of the like

5:43

the way ang should look and the way guitar

5:45

should look, in the way that those carriacs

5:47

move and act and their expressions. It's

5:50

that was really solidified by those animators.

5:54

Um at JM and Mir and

5:57

that's really cool to see when they're

5:59

they're are sort of like figuring out

6:01

those characters and bringing them to life.

6:04

And really, you know, you have that imagining

6:06

idea when you're writing and you're sort of looking at

6:08

a model sheet and you're looking at a script and you're looking at a

6:10

rough storyboard. How's that

6:12

all going to come together and make this stew?

6:15

But it's like and the voice,

6:17

I guess right, Yeah, like Jack Descenta. I

6:19

mean we we had thought of a

6:21

slightly different personality for soccer.

6:24

He was gonna be a lot more like dry

6:27

with you know, a lot more just kind of wry

6:29

humor. But Jack, I

6:31

think whacky is an appropriate word for Jack

6:35

Um. You know, he when he auditioned,

6:37

we are like, not only is this the

6:39

person, but we try to just set

6:41

up everything so that, you know, we have our

6:43

vision, we have our sort of like goal posts,

6:46

but with the writers that come in and

6:48

the storyboard artists and the designers and

6:50

the and the animators and the

6:53

music, you want to set it up so

6:55

that everyone can inject that passion

6:58

and love and videos and Christie and

7:00

all of that in there. And yeah,

7:02

you know when I was seeing stuff. My

7:05

own relationship with Annie May was

7:07

like, there was stuff that really blew me away

7:09

when I was younger, and then in college I just saw

7:11

a bunch of stuff that I thought was just really

7:13

misogynistic and like

7:16

gratuitously violent for no reason.

7:19

And especially when those two were paired,

7:21

I was like, I don't I have no interest in this

7:23

stuff, not none, you know, I

7:26

just go watch it early nineties Jently Kung

7:28

Fu movie instead or something. And but it

7:30

was working on Zim and Dave Filoni

7:33

introducing us kind of reintroducing me to

7:35

Miyazaki stuff. I had seen stuff as

7:37

a kid, didn't know who made it, and then

7:39

Foloni turned us onto that and

7:42

and then it was like seeing Cowboy

7:46

Bebop and Foodie Cootie and

7:48

just going, oh, like and

7:51

I'm I'm someone who's always like looking

7:54

at the top of the mountain. How can I get

7:56

up there? You know? And that that mountain being

7:58

not success, it's being creative,

8:01

you know this thing. How do we get up there?

8:03

And I'm looking up there and cow be up

8:05

and Foodie coot are way up the mountain,

8:08

like we're down here. I love that It didn't discourage

8:10

you because I think for a lot of usually

8:14

now I feel better. Now, I feel better because

8:16

it is it's that's intimidating to I mean Brian

8:18

Wilson's famous story about hearing like

8:20

Revolver or Sergeant Pepper or something like that

8:23

and being like, I'm going a bit and I'm

8:25

never getting out of it again, like the best

8:27

has been done. There's no point for

8:29

me. You know that the Beatles felt that way

8:31

about pet sounds. You know that, don't

8:35

don't walk away from something because you feel

8:38

like somebody's you know, a good jullion

8:40

percent better than you added if you can

8:43

push past that and you

8:45

know, have the ambition to

8:48

get better rather than letting it discourage

8:50

you. But you're I'm glad you said that, because it

8:52

is good to hear that that that the discouragement

8:54

is part of that and can be part of the process

8:57

too. That it's not just as simple as

8:59

like, well that better than anything I've ever

9:01

done, but oh get there someday like

9:03

that. You can have those conversations where one

9:05

day you're like, I should just I should stop

9:07

doing this. This is making me crazy, and then

9:09

the next day going, you know, I feel better, I

9:12

feel better, like I'm gonna, you know, maybe I will

9:14

get up there at some point like those are. It's it's

9:16

very fluid, right, Yeah. I feel like it also doesn't

9:18

go away, these

9:23

successes and stuff. It's like I still feel

9:25

like I don't talk, Like I forgot how to write.

9:27

Apparently, I have no idea of how do you

9:29

write? How do you write a character? I don't know. I can't draw.

9:32

I don't know how to draw anymore. I

9:34

think we're always chasing giants as like

9:37

as a lot of people are chasing you guys

9:39

after this series to degree

9:42

you know what I'm saying, and not in a bad way, but in a way of

9:44

inspiration. Yeah, I mean, I hope it's inspired. Yeah,

9:46

I mean, ideally it's part

9:48

discouraging but hopefully mostly inspiring

9:50

words. It's like, oh, I want to create,

9:52

I want to dry hand at this and get

9:55

better and uh yeah.

9:57

I think that the human spirit is

9:59

like the

10:01

the like magic ingredient and

10:04

and like genuine passion, and

10:06

that comes through. It comes through especially

10:09

in handmade animation.

10:11

You know, stuff that's drawn. There's

10:13

a real fingerprint of

10:15

the artist in the work. To the point

10:17

that I mean sometimes you know, someone's

10:19

storyboard drawings might be a little wonky,

10:22

and it it seeps into the final

10:24

animation and you're like, oh jeez, that

10:27

person's you know, stuff kind of got in there.

10:29

And and but you know,

10:31

there's there are a ton episodes. You

10:34

know, it was hard to keep the quality up. It was an incredibly

10:36

ambitious show, the original series,

10:39

and and we were just figuring

10:41

stuff out, and they oversee studios. We had

10:43

at one point three different studios, so

10:46

we were trying to get the American crews

10:48

who weren't into Anny May or weren't into

10:51

Miyazaki, trying to get them up to speed

10:53

and and get the sitcom

10:56

out of them or the kids TV

10:58

animation out of them, and try to get them

11:00

two, you know, to understand

11:03

what we were going for, this amalgam of

11:05

inspirations. And

11:07

and I think, like,

11:11

you know, I look back, there's a bunch of stuff that I

11:13

just think, I wish that scene was animated

11:15

better. I don't like the way this characters

11:18

looking in this episode. And

11:20

it doesn't matter, you know, it matters.

11:23

Sure, it would be nice if it all was super

11:25

slick and and looked.

11:28

It's utter best, but it's

11:30

still delivers this really powerful,

11:34

complete package, two

11:36

people that that go straight to their hearts.

11:38

And you know, and and that's

11:40

important for us to remember too, is like, look,

11:43

I'm never I am I am. I'm never

11:45

going to be able to draw like Miyazaki. I will

11:47

never be able to animate like him.

11:49

I'm not even it's

11:51

not ever gonna happen. It's okay, you know.

11:54

And that's not just like hero worship.

11:56

It's just it's just facts, you know, And

11:58

I'm okay with that. Um

12:01

But even us

12:03

slowly, you know, American

12:06

Mortal sitcom Animator,

12:08

it's like it's still

12:10

there's everybody still has some like humanity

12:13

and some spark and spirit that if it's

12:15

genuinely getting into your work, and you can

12:18

you can, if it's you

12:21

can get other people around you inspired, you

12:23

know, you can make something that's that really

12:26

touches people. And it doesn't have to be perfect

12:28

and slick and world

12:31

class. You know, it's still worth

12:33

it. And but of course,

12:35

as artists were always chasing something

12:38

because there's the thing in your head or that thing

12:40

that you see that you just love so much. Yet

12:43

some people still regardless as perfect,

12:45

like this the first this first

12:47

series, there are like it's perfect.

12:53

It literally it comes across every pitch

12:55

meeting these It's avatar had become a part

12:57

of the buzzwords, you know, within Hollywood

12:59

where animation or anything, it's

13:02

always comes back in what can it be? More

13:04

like? How about? And then you're like, they're talking

13:06

about this perfect thing, but

13:08

that's wrong. They should take that inspiration

13:11

and then go do something else.

13:13

I mean, that's what we did. We didn't just try to make

13:15

how what would be about food? It doesn't

13:17

look like either of those. Well, I know, Dante and I

13:19

would love to hear more about the process,

13:21

the overall process of putting an animated

13:23

show like this together. We Dante and I were actually

13:26

talking to each other and realize we really don't have

13:28

any idea of what the director of an animated

13:30

show even does. Like in our

13:32

minds, the director of an episode

13:35

is the person who is telling the camera people

13:37

what to do, telling us what to do, like

13:39

is present with the actors. It's

13:41

similar, it's just different. It's the

13:43

same, but they have to draw it all the

13:46

camera and the character the actor of

13:48

drawing, so they are directing the artists

13:50

drawing it. You know, you know, is

13:52

there a point especially in the first season where it's

13:55

all down to you. You're listening

13:57

for this pass, like you suddenly notice

13:59

that anks footsteps seem a little too crunchy.

14:01

We got our our Zuko microscopic

14:04

examiner here with Brian. How hard

14:06

is it to at a certain point go,

14:09

you know what, They're just going to have to stay the amount of crunchy

14:11

that they are because there's other stuff.

14:15

If a showrunner is a professional note

14:17

giver, and we give notes on everything,

14:20

including Zuko's crunchy footsteps,

14:22

that's the fully. It's very important.

14:25

Yeah, with animation too, you're literally examining

14:27

every well, I would say every frame, but really

14:30

every two frames, you know, like so

14:32

we and and back in the old days when we were

14:34

just had our VCR with the

14:36

episode on it like trying to call

14:38

retakes, which is like the most frustrating

14:41

part of the process but also the most crucial because

14:43

that's where after the animation comes

14:45

back from from the overseas studio,

14:48

you know, you have a chance to to fix

14:50

the things that aren't quite right yet, some

14:53

of which are like really bad

14:55

problems, like oh, Qatar's faces, like

14:57

her eyes over here that does not look good.

15:00

Are two little subtle things like I

15:02

don't know Ang's hand is missing his arrow

15:04

or little details or something's off model.

15:07

But that's the thing that's after like both of us

15:10

and directors looking at these things and frame

15:12

by framing through animation and going like,

15:15

we gotta fix this one frame

15:17

and you do draw overs and

15:20

yeah, it's it's a very tedious process and

15:22

you can only fix so much because all

15:25

of the fixes that the animators

15:27

have to do, dy've already moved

15:29

on to the next episode. So

15:31

when you are saying, I get it,

15:34

you've moved on and you're all tired

15:36

from doing this episode. But there's

15:38

stuff that's broken in here. We've got to fix it.

15:41

Or you might have creative oh we thought

15:43

of this idea late. That's called a creative retake,

15:45

where you pay for it. But you say, we need

15:48

to change this thing, and the animators are

15:50

telling you, but it's going to take away

15:52

from the next episode, and we're like, yeah,

15:54

but this episode is not in shape

15:56

to be shown to people. You know, And

15:59

being a showrunner, you have to care

16:01

about everything everything, and

16:03

a lot of showrunners I think don't,

16:05

and that's why the shows it's not like

16:07

a real honed vision there.

16:09

They have the things that they that are important to them

16:12

and then they just sort of don't care about it. If

16:14

you have great people in charge of those other things,

16:16

it could still work. Um.

16:18

It's not that the showrunner or showrunners

16:21

are the only ones that can make those decisions,

16:23

but um, I think the shows

16:25

that you see that really feel

16:30

specific. It feels like a specific

16:32

vision. Is that person cared

16:35

about the lighting and the

16:37

clothing and the sound, how

16:39

crunchy those things are, and and the type

16:42

of editing and the pacing and the music,

16:45

because that is all part of

16:47

the story. It's all part of the world. It's all

16:49

part of the creative vision. But

16:51

it's We did know Seth McFarland.

16:54

Mike knew him much better, but I knew him when

16:56

we've a bit. When we first got out here, we

16:58

saw firsthand, in close proximity,

17:01

what it was like to be a show runner. And I never

17:03

had any delusions that it was some glamorous

17:07

like kicking back and every it's just

17:09

so fun. I knew right when

17:11

I got out here how hard that was. And then I

17:14

became friends with Joan and Vasquez making

17:16

ZIM and saw how hard that was,

17:18

and so It wasn't like, Oh,

17:20

I'm going to run a show some sort

17:22

of glamorous throne. It was

17:24

more like, oh, we're going to get in the ring, Like,

17:27

okay, we've trained, do you want to actually

17:29

fight? You know? And that that's that's

17:31

the analogy I use now because it

17:34

is not for everybody, and it should

17:36

I don't recommend it for everybody. It's

17:40

not the be all end all. You can have a great

17:42

career and not be a show runner. And so after this

17:45

intense work schedule and all

17:47

the different bits and pieces that go into this, what

17:49

did it feel like when you knew the

17:51

show was premiering. I mean, the thing

17:54

with with doing the show is

17:56

that we were still in the middle

17:58

of, like, hey, the production.

18:00

So it wasn't like we had finished it. It wasn't like

18:02

a movie where like you finished it, Oh

18:05

it's coming out in a few months a little boy, you

18:07

have time to worry and stuff like. I don't

18:09

remember exactly, but you know, there's certainly

18:12

some some some expectations

18:14

were like, oh, I hope it does well and and you

18:16

know, we get to make more and all that. But we were still

18:18

in the thick of doing season one when the

18:20

first episode aired, so it was like, you

18:22

know, we had the premiere party, we had a moment to enjoy

18:25

the coming out, and then it was like back

18:27

to work the next day on whatever episode we were

18:29

working on it at the time. So and

18:31

really it was like that for all three seasons.

18:34

Even when we finished season one,

18:36

we were already writing on season two.

18:39

You know, I think all through Avatar,

18:41

I think I took one vacation maybe or

18:44

maybe two. I

18:46

remember to take away. It took a big trip at the end.

18:48

But did you guys ever have any expectations,

18:51

you know, I know as an actor doing a shot, and

18:53

I've talked about other interviews like I've had zero

18:55

expectations because it didn't make any sense

18:57

that this show was on Nickelodeon when I was doing it,

18:59

and I was like, it's a fun show. I had no idea

19:02

what it was gonna become. We were we were outside the

19:04

noise of social media at that time

19:06

doing this show, and so for it to

19:08

become when it became was a big

19:11

surprise to me, and that that I

19:13

love, and I was like, wow, this amazing. The whole show was a big

19:15

surprise to me. But as you guys are doing.

19:17

Did you guys have any expectations of It's

19:20

felt like a departure from from Nickelodeon

19:23

to a degree what they were doing before and

19:25

when they do anything like it since you

19:27

know, yeah, I mean, we were doing

19:30

the continuous storytelling

19:33

and the binge ability thing or that

19:35

was a thing, you know, and and that was some

19:37

early conversations with Eric was like he

19:40

was totally supportive of of that approach.

19:42

It was just, OK, make sure each episode

19:45

has kind of a beginning, middle, and then it's not just

19:47

like cliffhanger, cliffhanger, cliffhanger

19:50

kind of thing, which was fine with us. We like

19:52

that that storytelling where you're you're

19:54

telling a longer story and these these

19:56

shorter chunks. And I think that was

19:58

more like common an anime back

20:01

around that time, and like that was around

20:04

the time Loss was coming out, and like

20:06

it was out there, but especially

20:09

certainly for I think for American TV animation.

20:11

I can't think of another show that

20:14

was doing that at that time. But I

20:16

do remember even at the time and on those message

20:18

boards, like if there was an episode that like

20:21

didn't a percent moved the

20:23

overall plot forward, it was like, oh, it

20:25

was suddenly a filler episode and forget that episode,

20:28

and I was like, what is this filler? It's like, it's

20:30

all part of the story. Guys come out, Yeah,

20:32

they call it anime filler. That was people say

20:34

that about Omashu, right, it was like, what are

20:36

you talking? And that's in the end. Some

20:38

of those episodes end up becoming you

20:40

know, Amashu. It's actually super

20:43

crucial episode because it's the you know, you know,

20:46

you introduced Boomi. Absolutely

20:49

absolutely, and yeah, I mean the most

20:51

famous one is the Great Divide

20:53

one, which I'll give him. I'll say, that's

20:55

pretty fillery. That's terrible. How could

20:58

you've got this big gap. It's

21:00

a big empty hole, yet it is

21:02

filler. Actually

21:04

grown to like that. I've grown to like that episode

21:07

a lot. Yeah, I was not happy with

21:09

it, but but every

21:12

even the episodes that I wasn't as stoked

21:14

on, there were always moments that I really

21:16

liked. And um, that one has some

21:19

you know, the little the various

21:22

versions of the story, you know, and

21:24

the cute little game they play at the end.

21:26

I like the art, the different I like the art shift

21:29

in the episodes. I always with

21:31

John Carl of Bope, I always introduced John John

21:34

Carlos, the director of

21:36

The Great Divide that had

21:38

the Canyon the Canyon Crawlers in it,

21:40

which I feel like was it was a cool, creepy

21:43

animal that we didn't use. I

21:47

felt like if the ending changed

21:49

a little bit from the lie it could have had, we'd

21:52

have a whole different feeling about

21:54

Yeah, I don't think that would save it. Um,

21:56

wait a minute from the thing.

21:59

That's what people think. So it's

22:01

not like it's the only time and does some foreshadow

22:04

report foreshadow report for shadow

22:06

report. It's not like it's the only time

22:08

he as a child makes a choice

22:10

that is not he's he's

22:12

a trickster. Yeah, he learned from the best

22:14

Dante. Your earlier question, did we expect

22:18

or hope? Honestly, you

22:20

know, describing how challenging it is

22:22

as a showrunner and the prize

22:25

I kept my eyes on was just finishing

22:27

the story. It's not that I didn't, you

22:29

know, hope it would be successful or wonder

22:31

or whatever. But I just thought we

22:34

just needed to be successful enough that we can get

22:36

to the end. That's it, Because it wasn't

22:39

just a show that was like a reset button

22:41

and oh we got to make X number

22:43

of seasons of it, and then it got canceled. We weren't

22:45

trying to drag this thing

22:47

on forever. We pitched it with the beginning of

22:49

middle and an end, and we just wanted to finish

22:52

telling the story. That was the only thing that would

22:54

bum me out was that if that opportunity

22:56

would be cut short. And however successful

22:59

it might be, we were trying to make something that would

23:01

last. You know, you write some fantasy novel

23:03

that lives on the shelves of your Barnes and

23:05

Nobles and your libraries and stuff.

23:07

So I grew up on that kind of

23:09

stuff. I want to add to that pantheon,

23:12

like cool fantasy stories,

23:14

cool animation, to trajectory

23:16

of its popularity has really just kind of gone up

23:18

and up and up and up. Well that for the exact reason

23:20

that you just said, and what Dante said earlier, is

23:22

like that when people talk about how perfect it is,

23:25

maybe they aren't talking about whether in

23:27

this frame Socca is still holding a

23:29

cup and in the next he is if he's put

23:31

it down, which, by the way, I Soaco might have just put the

23:33

cup down, Like it's really okay. The best retorts

23:35

to anything like that is like, why don't you make

23:38

a show and I will be there and I

23:40

will point out all of the retakes that you

23:42

didn't fix it. But to be able to lean

23:44

into the fact that that much attention to detail

23:46

is coming as part of a compendium

23:49

of this Avatar wiki that is so

23:52

thorough, only huge

23:54

passionate love for this world

23:57

could have created something that would

24:00

in keep track of like a you

24:02

know, a fun gaff here, and that

24:04

those things become not even there. It's

24:06

not a criticism of the work. It's like I

24:08

know the most. I know the most about

24:11

this thing that I love so fiercely

24:13

that part of my love for it means

24:16

I can point out when Sake isn't

24:18

holding the cup anymore. And that's not that's

24:20

not a criticism, it's part of the

24:22

package of me being an uber fan.

24:25

That's not me. But but you know, but I see

24:27

why. That's the real success of the show

24:30

when it's so good and we've seen it first

24:32

times so you guys have too. Is when people adopt

24:34

a show for themselves. It's like the character Zuko,

24:37

the the whole story of ang like it's

24:39

there. It means so much to them that it

24:41

says something about them when they talk. When

24:43

they're talking to me about the show, they're

24:46

talking about themselves. And that's I

24:48

mean, you know, it only happens a few times

24:50

in my career that certain characters

24:52

have transcended, certain stories

24:54

have transcended, and people have

24:56

adopted as their story and it's

24:59

always it just makes you feel good

25:01

as a story tell it will be a part of these great stories.

25:03

If you're lucky, it happens to you once you

25:06

know what I'm saying. And so it's one of those projects.

25:08

But Dante, you're so right. I love everything

25:11

you're saying. I couldn't agree more. That's that's

25:13

so true, And that's one of the things

25:15

that we hear about as actors is, Yeah,

25:17

that intense identification with fictitious

25:20

character that has then helped people

25:23

identify better with what they want

25:25

in their own lives, or what's holding them back

25:27

in their own lives, or who they need to communicate

25:29

better with or differently within their lives. That's

25:32

huge. That idea

25:34

that once you release art

25:37

out into the world, it's no

25:39

longer yours. You know, It's like you may give

25:41

birth to a child, but that child

25:44

is its own person and it's not you,

25:46

and it goes on to have its own life

25:49

and interacts with people.

25:51

And art is very much the

25:53

same way. And you

25:55

know, for me, my favorite medium

25:57

is music, and there there

25:59

is music by my

26:01

favorite artists that is such

26:04

an intrinsic part of my life and

26:06

my memory and my

26:09

identity and the evolution of

26:11

my thoughts and personality, and especially

26:14

the music. You know, they have I think Oliver

26:16

Sacks or I don't know, people have studied like the music

26:18

you're listening to in your twelve thirteen, fourteen,

26:21

you're like going through puberty and your

26:23

brains forming and you're like figuring

26:26

out who you are. Mike

26:28

and I talked about this all the time. It's like this notion

26:30

like that stories are like kind

26:33

of instruction manuals for living and

26:35

dealing with other people. And

26:38

sometimes you get the right manual at the right time and

26:41

it makes a big impact on you. So yeah,

26:43

it's like you released it out into the world. It's your thing,

26:45

but it's also not your thing anymore, you know.

26:48

It's it's because it is part is now wrapped

26:50

up in someone else's life and and their

26:52

brain and heart and community.

26:59

We do of a segment in the show called

27:01

Animal Crossing, the original Animal

27:03

Crossing, where we talk about hybrids

27:06

that we've met. Obviously, we've met Opa,

27:08

We've seen some otter penguins. I

27:10

just found out that Opa was half manate I

27:12

didn't even know. I never knew that on

27:15

this podcast read the art

27:17

book. He looked up a manatee

27:20

on on the internet and said, yeah,

27:23

I learned stuff every day. I

27:25

had to look at a manatee and then the body

27:27

floating. I was like, that's also

27:33

you were criticizing their posture, but

27:36

they're underwater, Dante, I

27:38

know. I didn't know why sitting

27:40

in a chair like I thought, Appa

27:42

slumped a lot horrible

27:44

posture. What's wrong with this, dude? Have

27:46

you ever seen a bison? They have humps

27:49

on their back, Dante, that's not all just

27:51

it's not like his bad posture is the shape

27:54

of his back. I'm not like O. I didn't

27:56

ponder him a whole lot dissing

27:58

on Offa. Now, gosh, he's a

28:00

homie, right

28:03

And Mike and so you very kindly

28:05

listened to our pilot episode

28:08

and you both said wonderful things.

28:10

And they're pretty short pieces

28:13

of feedback in the top and then

28:16

after Brian's signature and then

28:18

like a series of information about what his job

28:20

is and running Avatar Studios

28:22

and all this. Then it was like PS

28:24

tiny P tiny sage

28:28

of like Esoterica in the

28:31

best way. It was like, I mean, if you're

28:33

curious, Okay, listen, this is the reason that No, it is

28:35

not the only place like this. That village

28:37

is not the entirety of the Southern one er tron. You can tell

28:39

don like, the show

28:41

ran the episode, which is what we needed.

28:44

So that's great. Being that kind

28:46

of annoying human. It

28:49

is a good trait for a show runner.

28:51

That's great trait. It's not great for making

28:54

friends. Oh, I loved it because it showed that you paid

28:56

attention and listen. If you had said, you

28:58

know, the off of the email, like wow,

29:01

guys, wow, let's talk.

29:03

You know this is this is not anything

29:05

close to what I would ever want associated with the show.

29:07

Of course a page of notes would

29:09

be. But that's you said, the thing that

29:12

mattered. And then you were like, I'm just gonna throw That's

29:14

why it was in the PS

29:19

nothing they were what's did

29:21

he do? This show? Was Dante in the world.

29:23

I don't know if people use this word anymore.

29:26

But they were factoids. I was just

29:28

dropping the fact that

29:30

you can use later if you want

29:32

hot factoids, and we have

29:35

popped up fact exactly. That's

29:37

right. Okay, So back to Animal Crossing.

29:40

Do you have a favorite

29:42

or two? I think Appa will always

29:44

be my favorite one because it

29:46

was the first one. Well that's not true,

29:49

actually, Naga, because the first drawing

29:51

of Ang had Nauga in it, and

29:55

so we we came up with Naga even

29:57

before Apa. So that was one of those

29:59

that didn't make it into the first series

30:02

just for whatever reason. But that is in

30:04

the art book. Yeah, yeah, I feel like Naga's

30:06

reference. Yeah, we just it just didn't make its way.

30:08

And but when we came back, we were like, hey

30:10

remember that design. Oh yeah, we could use

30:12

that APA because it was the first

30:15

one that you know, I had this little sketch

30:17

of Bang just happily sitting on his head

30:19

and he was shepherding a whole

30:21

flock of them through the sky. Had no idea

30:24

how they flew, didn't know why any of them

30:26

had arrows or whatever. But back

30:28

when we were in that intense period

30:31

between meeting with Eric Coleman and then pitching

30:33

to him. I actually went to Florida

30:36

on a quick trip and

30:39

got to swim in nature

30:41

with the man. That's what happened to me. Yeah,

30:43

I heard you say that. I actually got to

30:45

swim with one. It was incredible, sweetest

30:49

thing. You could just feel it's benevolence,

30:52

you know, like you really can feel its presence. You

30:55

want to take care of it, even though it's so much bigger

30:57

than you, like the sort of the elephant thing where

30:59

you're just like, oh, you're so gentle

31:01

and wonderful, beautiful, gentle creature

31:04

and terrible posture, terrible,

31:06

terrible stuff.

31:08

He lives in zero gravity, I understand,

31:11

and he's eating off the sea floor, so

31:13

it's good to have its head down there. It's good

31:15

to have that. Yeah. And then and then Nauga, because Naga

31:18

was you know. Later when we went to finalize

31:20

the design, I worked in my dog

31:23

Gunther and Mike's dog Truman. They

31:25

were brothers and worked in some aspects.

31:27

And when I went like took Gunther to snow

31:30

and I had little snow gloves for him,

31:32

you know, like the dog mittens. He was like

31:34

Nauga. His front paws were huge and

31:36

I could not get the mittens over

31:39

his front paws and then his back paws were tiny

31:41

and they slipped right over. I was like, you

31:43

really are Naga. But Dark dark

31:45

Horse made a really adorable plush

31:48

of Naga and it it's based on my

31:51

style guide pose of Naga that they used,

31:53

you know and pressed stuff, and they really

31:55

captured that pose. So we still gun

31:57

through and Truman sadly have passed on, but

32:00

we have that plush on our

32:02

like mantle and it's just it's it's

32:04

like a little thing. And then lastly,

32:06

Momo even the moment was a lemur. I never had a lemur,

32:09

but that was really based on my cat buddy just

32:11

would sort of draw a cat body

32:13

and then put big ears on it. So those

32:15

are, you know, the original the original three

32:18

are probably my favorites. Yes, I mean

32:20

the classic Opa, Momo, Naga

32:22

of course are amazing. The

32:24

Badge Room moles were cool. I like those

32:27

guys. There's this one animal

32:29

that we put in the like. I think it was just in

32:31

the finale because we needed a super

32:33

fast land animal and I don't remember exactly

32:36

who came up with it, but it was an eel hound.

32:38

I want to do more with eel Hounds because it

32:41

has a lot of potential and we didn't really get to do

32:43

too much with them, but they were kind of cool. There's spin

32:45

off show ill Hound in the New Universe,

32:48

kind of like a greyhound with a crazy eel neck,

32:51

and it was it was weird. It was a weird

32:53

one, but it looked cool. We go to the Illhound

32:55

races in Miami on the

32:57

ill Hounds. Ours are ethical

32:59

though ethical, ethical, ethic

33:01

oil hand roses started by run

33:04

by themselves. They're in control. It's great.

33:06

It's exactly how they wanted you hounds

33:08

that you've heard it here, you heard it here. And I

33:10

got I got to ask about Bosco the bear

33:12

because I get asked about Bosco the

33:14

bear all the time. I'm like, I don't know

33:17

that he's just a regular bear. Why is he just a

33:19

regular bear? So all right, this

33:21

is when you have a bunch of really smart writers

33:24

who went to Ivy League schools and stuff.

33:26

First of all, they're like hybrid animals, Wait, we

33:28

gotta do a bunch of jokes about

33:30

that. And then they're like, wait, let's do a joke

33:32

about not having a hyer its

33:35

own joke. Bosco was named

33:37

after Lisa. Our friend

33:39

Lisa, who worked on the show, was named after

33:41

her dog. It was not named after you, and

33:43

never thought of the connection. This year

33:45

she was named after her other dog, so both

33:47

of them, both of her dogs. And then June

33:50

was based on her visually, and

33:52

then May was based on her personality.

33:55

So she had four characters in the

33:57

show that work. Oh my god, that's

34:00

pretty cool. Bosco's name was spelled differently

34:02

than your last name, so it was b Oh.

34:10

You know, we'll be asking some guests if they

34:12

have a ship that they get behind. I think

34:14

I'm not going to ask. We don't want to ask

34:16

you guys that I think for us, it's

34:18

more what's interesting is when

34:21

did you become aware of that as a

34:23

phenomenon and did

34:25

you have any kind of specific reaction to it.

34:28

We were just talking to our twenty five

34:30

year old junior exact about this,

34:33

um yeah,

34:36

shipping. As far as I know,

34:39

I'm not going to say it didn't exist, because

34:41

anything humans can think of, I'm

34:44

sure existed somewhere in people's heads, but like

34:46

as a cultural phenomenon,

34:49

as a driving force of fandoms,

34:53

I had never ever, ever,

34:56

ever ever heard of two

34:58

of someone sitting there not

35:01

even while watching the show and thinking about

35:03

two characters in that show who are not

35:06

together and just spending

35:08

mental psychic energy

35:11

wishing they would just get together. Like

35:13

that is such an alien concept

35:16

to me, and I can't even think

35:19

of having something of a remote

35:21

version of that in my What

35:24

about Flynn and Yuri from Tron?

35:27

Did you ever ship Flynn and

35:29

Urie? Exactly? Maybe

35:32

I thought, oh, maybe these characters are

35:34

going to get get together, Like I sent some

35:36

tension there, but I would never then, like I

35:38

need to go right pages

35:41

about p I mean, I

35:43

feel like on those like we were talking about those early

35:46

message boards. I can't remember if the term

35:48

was used, but there was definitely talk about like

35:50

the Zuko Katara, the hang and qatara

35:53

that stuff. Then I forget how we

35:55

learned about it, but someone was like, you know, shipping

35:58

is the thing, and I was like, what are you talking about? And

36:01

and and was educated that this

36:03

was in fact a thing that people

36:05

thought about. You can understand it from the perspective

36:08

of And That's why I love Cora

36:10

Saw Me so much. Is that in so

36:13

much of contemporary culture,

36:15

shows and all, you know, basically

36:17

all kinds of storytelling, you don't have a

36:20

whole lot of shipping of gay characters.

36:22

Yeah, they're not being represented, and so

36:25

the idea of that existing and

36:27

needing to exist in a fandom,

36:29

it took on a whole new meaning for me. When

36:31

you think about it that way, it's like, oh, that you

36:33

have to invent it because it's not

36:35

really recognized the way you know straight

36:38

shipping would be. That is a

36:40

fair point. And to answer your question, do I

36:42

have a ship? Cora? Sammy was my

36:44

first ship. I was the I was the first core

36:47

Sammi shipper, and I've I've battled

36:49

fans over this at like constant, like I

36:51

was the first. I was in the writer's room with Mike

36:54

when you didn't know who saw me was

36:56

or Cora. Um. Battling

36:58

with the show's creator is bold.

37:01

Bold. When you released that the day

37:03

after with the thing I saw it on Tumbler,

37:06

me along with the rest of the fandom probably

37:08

just kind of got emotional and cry. I couldn't imagine.

37:11

I can't believe they did. I was like, I just don't I can't

37:13

believe he did it. He really did. It's crazy.

37:15

Well, we did what we could, and you know, as

37:17

it says in that our statements. You know,

37:20

it obviously wasn't as far as we

37:22

would have liked to have gone. But all I'll say

37:24

is a few years later now and

37:26

just what what I'm seeing in media,

37:29

it's it's it's encouraging, and

37:31

I'm I'm glad that we were just part

37:34

of that wave and it was cool to

37:36

see. It's cool to see other shows

37:38

that were other animated shows that were

37:40

going on around town at the same time that we're

37:43

maybe a little after us, but they took it, they were able

37:45

to take it a little further. But um

37:48

no, I honestly, I

37:51

was just describing that it was so

37:53

strange to me. It was also strange to

37:55

me. I've said this many times when I got to art school

37:57

and realized people were still watching

37:59

Star Wars, I didn't know that was happening.

38:02

So my reaction to shipping was also

38:04

similar. It was like, what, what, what's going

38:06

on? Why are you doing that? If people want to ship,

38:09

totally fine, Mike, any thoughts you want to add

38:11

to that, Uh, no

38:13

judgments, People ship

38:15

who you want ship. There's

38:18

your ang In Zuko comparison right there.

38:24

You know, we tried athletic act what

38:26

we want to do, though, Like we're gonna

38:28

put the characters together that we think make

38:31

the most interesting stories and

38:33

stuff, and we know there's gonna be reactions no matter

38:36

what combination we do so or

38:38

don't do Yeah, so or don't do so.

38:41

You're gonna you're gonna make some people happy. Some

38:43

people are not gonna be happy because these characters are not

38:45

together. But I mean that's kind of what you

38:48

do as writers, is like, like, I want

38:50

to see these two characters together. Let's see what happens

38:52

when these two meet and or whatever times

38:54

the characters tell you. You know, it's

38:56

not just about romantic relationships. I mean

38:58

I've seen other writers and show

39:01

runners talk about this. You get to know your characters

39:03

and they start telling you if you respect

39:06

them and think of them as real people,

39:09

which I think you should, they'll start telling you

39:11

what's true to them and true to

39:13

their character and where

39:15

they want, what choices they would make, and you

39:17

you try to listen. I think that's important.

39:20

I've somehow become the captain of the Sutara

39:22

ship online throughout the year, and I

39:25

am but I gave him this. I gave him this

39:27

poem and it goes, I love I

39:30

love Sutara even though it's not Cannon

39:32

because I'm a hopeless romantic. Something's the

39:34

best left to be imagined. And

39:37

like it's okay,

39:40

y'all, let's not trip out imaginations.

39:43

Cool, that's fine. Enjoy

39:46

yourselves. This is off the top of your head, each

39:48

of you, just in this moment, whatever bubbles

39:50

to mind. Within book one, within

39:52

water uh,

39:55

a place that you can drop into. You're

39:57

not reliving the plot. You're just get

39:59

to hang in that environment, you know, with those

40:01

characters, Like if you could just zip in there

40:04

for a little bit, not because you just said

40:06

zip, but but Jet's

40:08

treehouse, zip line, little

40:11

area. Not because I thought Jet was cool.

40:13

That's a whole other episode. Get going deep into

40:16

Jet is a whole another hanging out, hanging

40:18

out in the tree forts. Oh, I can't wait to get

40:20

to Jet Rufio. I

40:22

don't know, that's the most that seems like that's the most complicated

40:25

character I think in this series that you

40:27

really got to look at him and be like, what

40:30

were you got? What? I don't know, that's another

40:32

that's another whole conversation. Yeah, I honestly

40:35

I was gonna say this, I love Tree

40:37

forts and uh it

40:39

had like the Fall foliage, even though

40:41

I think it wasn't Fall. Um, I too

40:44

love Tree for its being a former lost boy

40:46

awesome exactly, That's

40:48

what I'm saying. It's like, yeah, it sounds good. Those

40:50

are great choices. And then have to

40:52

ask understand that

40:55

you probably can't say much about it, but

40:57

is there anything you can tell us about Avatar

41:00

Studios and kind of the future of where

41:02

things are going, Just that we are

41:04

working hard on some new

41:06

stories, new We're

41:09

overseeing the whole franchise, so it's

41:11

going to take a while before new stuff starts

41:14

percolating out there. But rest assured,

41:16

we are working hard to satisfy

41:18

the desires of everyone. We

41:22

just keep tapping into this well spring

41:24

in the way that inspires us

41:26

and finding great

41:28

creative partners to work with us and to help

41:31

us explore these ideas. And so,

41:33

yeah, Mike and I have sort of mapped out of a very

41:35

ambitious, multi

41:38

tiered I don't know, it feels

41:40

like a big octopus said, we're

41:42

just um looking

41:44

at how we can

41:47

go deeper into this big,

41:50

rich, largely

41:52

untapped history and future in

41:54

the Avatar world. So there

41:56

are there are ideas that we've been excited

41:59

about for a long time that we're finally

42:01

getting to really dive into. And then

42:03

there's things that we're just figuring out and just getting

42:05

really excited about. And if we were just

42:07

trying to take requests and it's

42:09

not the way to it's not the way to carve

42:12

out a big fantasy universe,

42:15

but go ahead, Mike, Sorry, Oh no, it's just it's

42:17

the cool thing I think we can say

42:19

about it that without giving anything away, is

42:22

like the way we're approaching it now

42:24

is like so different than Avatar. You know,

42:26

we're coming in now and we have unprecedented

42:29

support from Nickelodeon, so it is the franchise

42:31

and like the shows and and animated

42:34

stuff, but also you know, other stuff

42:36

beyond and publishing and

42:38

and podcasts like you're doing and all that stuff.

42:40

So just to have this like super big

42:42

picture, like Brian was talking about big picture. I

42:45

like big picture things, like looking

42:47

at this giant picture. We're

42:49

not like, oh, we have all

42:51

these ideas. We might maybe we'll get

42:53

to make one of them, but it's like, oh, we have all ideas,

42:55

and ideally we're gonna get to over

42:58

the years explore all of them and get to a cam.

43:00

But it'll take some time, a lot of time. It's

43:02

a long plan. And

43:04

and again it is multi tiered. And what's

43:07

neat is that we want each of these

43:09

projects to have its own feeling,

43:12

its own tone and look, and

43:14

and so it will all feel true to

43:16

the Avatar world, but they will all be very different

43:18

expressions of it. So it will really

43:20

deepen it and expand it. And

43:23

we've been lucky that the two series

43:25

we've made already reach quite a

43:28

diverse you know, international young,

43:30

old audience, people that really

43:33

aren't even in the animation, or

43:35

maybe don't even have kids, but have ended up

43:37

watching the show. I think the new stuff will

43:39

even push into other audiences.

43:42

You know, as always we're not chasing audiences.

43:45

It's always just like it's got

43:47

to start from that genuine inspiration

43:49

and that that test audience of

43:51

us just is this what we think

43:54

feels true to Avatar? Is this what we think

43:56

we're excited to tell? And

43:58

and um, I think it is. I think it's

44:00

amazing. How you know,

44:02

when I when I was in high school reading Lord of the Rings

44:05

and I just loved it, you know, it inspired

44:07

me to try to write my own stories um

44:10

as a teenager and to illustrate

44:13

him and and the

44:15

way fans interact with stuff now is so

44:18

creative and interactive, and

44:20

they're using the shows. I mean, we were talking

44:22

about when you release these things, they're not really

44:24

yours anymore. Like on Cora, like people

44:26

would take a still that I would post and

44:28

they would like put it into after effects and add

44:31

a camera move and parallax and I

44:33

blink and and I'm like, well, like they

44:36

were interacting with this stuff in such

44:38

a creative way.

44:40

I loved all the jokes and memes

44:42

and poking fund at us and

44:45

I loved it. Like in the heyday

44:47

of Tumbler, I though that was

44:49

great. You know, it was fun. It was so

44:51

fertile and creative. So

44:54

yeah, there's all there's we're going to explore a

44:56

bunch of stuff that we want to do,

44:58

but it's like it's just gonna arac open even

45:00

more stuff for people to be inspired,

45:03

and they're always free to do their own fan art

45:05

and fan animation and fan fiction

45:07

and stuff. We just try to keep it. I

45:09

love that. I think it's awesome, but we just try to

45:12

keep that out of our heads. And just tell

45:14

the story. I don't want to tell me Zaki what his next

45:16

movie should be. You know, I just want to

45:18

see it. I just want to see it. And not

45:20

that we're Meazaki, but you just want to let

45:23

those creators like do their thing

45:25

from that whatever that place is that

45:27

they're getting their inspiration. Like

45:30

that's that's what's interesting. So, yeah, you

45:32

guys show up for yourselves, you show up for each other,

45:34

you show up for the work, and you

45:37

are showing up for the fans just by doing those

45:39

things, Like that's that translates

45:42

to creating new, wonderful

45:44

stuff. And I know, Danteana, I mean,

45:46

listen, we're here as fans, so

45:49

we're fans of you two too. Yeah,

45:51

and if we make all this stuff, you guys just be podcasting

45:53

for about the next twenty years or so. I think

45:56

we've totally talked

45:58

about that. We're like, this is amazing. We're reporting

46:00

on the Avatar verse. I'm happy to

46:02

just be a fan who talks about it on a meta

46:05

level for the rest of my life. I'm perfectly

46:07

happy that that is like my jam. We'll

46:09

try to give you good stuff I

46:12

have. I couldn't be less concerned.

46:15

I feel very hopeful that this will

46:17

not be the last time that we have you on. Please

46:20

have us back. Yeah, amazing,

46:22

Thank you, thank you, thank you so much. Thank you guys

46:24

for doing this, Thanks for giving us a little

46:27

peek at what is coming up in the

46:29

future. Dante, thank you as always

46:31

for being my amazing buddy

46:33

and wonderful co host. Thank

46:35

you, Mike Brian, I miss you, guys. It's

46:38

always great to hang Thank you so much

46:40

for having us on. It's been awesome. We feel

46:42

so honored that

46:44

you are running our podcast

46:47

um now. But when we when we, you

46:50

know, heard that you two would

46:52

be helming this this project, we

46:54

were so excited and you you

46:57

two have just been such um

46:59

amazed using ambassadors

47:01

of the Avatar Verse and

47:03

and the fans love

47:06

you and can I Janet. You and I would

47:08

sit next to each other at so many signings

47:10

and and I would just see

47:13

you and the and like fans just bawling

47:15

together. And I've done that a little bit

47:17

with fans, but like someone shows

47:19

up with tears in their eyes, also

47:23

have tears in my appy. You connected them in

47:25

a way that is so special.

47:27

And Dante is the hardest working person

47:30

in the con business and

47:32

uh and you know, I just know

47:34

the fans appreciate it so much because

47:37

you two are just luminaries. So

47:40

thank you so much, Thank you, it was great talk

47:42

to you well. Friends. We hope you enjoyed

47:44

these two very special episodes with Mike and

47:46

Brian. We have tons more special

47:49

content to come subscribe,

47:51

whether it be on Apple Podcasts or

47:54

the I Heart Radio app, Spotify, or just

47:56

wherever you get your podcasts and

47:58

speaking special episodes. We are because I had

48:00

to dive right back into the TV series.

48:02

We will return with you next week. Thanks

48:04

so much for listening to Braving the Elements.