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1:18

Gave S Dunn. Hello and welcome to

1:20

Bad with Money, a show about finances

1:22

and feelings where we don't talk down

1:24

to you. I'm your host Gave S

1:27

Dunn and with me today is Kara

1:29

Stevens. Do you want to tell my audience who

1:31

you are and what you do? Yes, I am

1:33

the founder of the Frugal feminista and

1:35

I talk at the intersection of

1:37

emotions and money so this is

1:39

going to be a great conversation.

1:42

Just adds up, Kara's daughter, you might

1:44

hear her in the background, which is

1:46

fine. We love a built-out soundscape.

1:49

You know what I mean? Let us

1:51

show you other podcasts. They record their

1:53

cars going over gravel. They record doorbells

1:55

ringing when they want to give, you

1:58

know, the space kind of a feel.

2:00

that's sort of the authenticity we bring

2:02

you here at bad with money. So

2:04

when did you start like thinking

2:06

about money in this way? Honestly

2:09

it was when I started having

2:11

student loan debt that I couldn't

2:14

avoid and realized that my credit

2:16

card debt and my student loan debt

2:18

which was around 65K was not going

2:20

to go away and I had been

2:23

avoiding it for a while and I

2:25

had been avoiding it for a while

2:27

and I had been realize while my

2:29

mom was like, you know the bills

2:31

don't go away. And I was like,

2:33

really? Because I've been ghosting them for

2:35

like a good couple months. And these

2:37

keep on coming back and the balances

2:39

keep on getting higher. And she's like,

2:42

my dear, it's because that's late fees

2:44

one. And that is interest accruing number

2:46

two. And so that was my first

2:49

realization that, one, I couldn't avoid debt.

2:51

And then later after getting out of

2:53

debt and then feeling this this void

2:55

and this still angst anxiety around money,

2:58

I realize that my emotions and a

3:00

relationship with money still had to do

3:02

some healing for it to match up

3:04

with the success I've had with

3:06

eliminating debt, but I was still

3:09

very fearful, very scarcity mindset driven

3:11

just afraid and anxious about spending

3:14

about making mistakes about taking risks.

3:16

So I think it was over

3:18

the course of. at least five to

3:20

six years of getting out of debt,

3:23

staying out of debt, but not feeling

3:25

any better about money. Yeah. What was

3:27

the student loan debt sort of

3:29

holding you back from? Was it like

3:32

an emotional feeling of having this on

3:34

your chasing you through life or was

3:36

it like, oh, these are actually getting

3:38

more and more, you said like late

3:41

fees and stuff like that? So was

3:43

it a combination of sort of the

3:45

reality of the late fees and also

3:48

feeling like? I can't breathe because this

3:50

is on my, like it's sort of

3:52

taking up my mind space. Yeah, and

3:54

it was also lack of knowledge. I

3:56

didn't know. I didn't know anything about

3:58

loans. You know what I mean? I was

4:00

18, you go to college, you

4:02

just happen to get into the

4:04

school of your choice or one

4:07

of your choices, you're away from

4:09

home, and I didn't know anything

4:11

about notes and promissory notes and

4:14

signing paperwork, and I don't know

4:16

anything about that. So it was,

4:18

oh, I didn't know I had

4:20

to pay it back, like they're

4:22

like, you know, like. I was

4:25

like, no, I'm not paying it

4:27

back. Like, why do they keep

4:29

on asking? And then two, I

4:31

had no job. This was like

4:34

around, I graduated in 2001, around

4:36

September 11th. So I had

4:38

no job and I was

4:40

cobbling together part-time jobs. I was

4:42

just in a very unsettled

4:45

state postgraduate. And so

4:47

all of those things kind of

4:49

came together and created this like,

4:52

oh my God, like my life. It

4:54

still is not going well and

4:56

this is making it worse. So

4:58

what can I do? What can

5:01

I begin to do since,

5:03

you know, I have, I,

5:05

I'm here, it's not going

5:07

to go away. That was

5:09

the biggest realization and that

5:11

was kind of like the

5:13

impetus to be like, wow, if

5:16

I don't, if I don't continue,

5:18

if I don't start, it'll

5:20

get worse. That was a

5:22

realization. Why mom? Are they asking me

5:25

for this money? Don't they know I'm not

5:27

going to give it back? Looking for her

5:29

to give me comfort. That's what I

5:31

thought. That's what I thought. But honestly,

5:33

not that it's her fault, but growing

5:35

up, she went to the credit card,

5:38

the debt collectors, will call. She like,

5:40

tell them not here. So I was

5:42

kind of doing the equivalent if you

5:44

really want to talk about it. So

5:46

I didn't know that there was a second

5:48

part we should actually pay the stuff back.

5:50

I was just there for the first part

5:52

in the middle part. So I didn't really

5:54

make the connection that you can avoid for

5:56

a while, but you're still gonna have to

5:58

eventually pay it back. So she was looking

6:01

at me like she had taught me something

6:03

different like don't you know you have to

6:05

pay it back and I was like no

6:07

because I guess I had all this while

6:09

That we lie we say we're not here. Oh

6:11

my god. That's one of those things where

6:13

your parents are teaching you stuff

6:15

without you even realizing like without

6:17

them realizing that's what they're doing

6:20

and you're like picking up with

6:22

money so much is that you're like

6:24

picking up stuff from your family that

6:27

they're not even conscious of imparting to

6:29

you especially if they don't talk to

6:31

you about it otherwise, you just

6:33

get these ideas like, oh, okay, well,

6:36

this is what you do. Right. It's

6:38

interesting to talk about to start with

6:40

student loans, because I didn't anticipate that

6:42

being sort of a part of your

6:45

story, but I wrote a book about

6:47

money that came out in 2019, and

6:49

part of the book was I spoke

6:52

to specifically like black people who had

6:54

gone to college and how there was

6:56

this sense of unfairness because

6:58

You want to, you're told all your

7:00

life, okay, better yourself. Okay, go

7:02

to these schools. And it was

7:05

actually like the statistics at the

7:07

time were that the people with

7:09

the most student loan debt were

7:11

people of color who were like, well,

7:13

I'm trying to, of economic mobility

7:15

or I'm trying to, like I'm

7:17

doing what you're telling me to do

7:19

America and I'm rewarded with bullshit.

7:22

Right, right. No, it's very, very

7:24

true. And I think that. I

7:26

absolutely, not that I knew the statistic at

7:28

that time, but I would have used it,

7:30

you know, to be like, that is why

7:32

I'm not paying this back. But that's the

7:35

honest to God truth that the irony in

7:37

this country is that you are sold this

7:39

narrative that if you, you know, pull yourself

7:41

up by the bootstraps, which is

7:43

getting loans to a certain degree, and

7:45

you go to these schools that are

7:47

vetted, accredited, accredited, and is supposed to

7:49

guarantee, but more or less put you

7:52

on the track. of being able

7:54

to garner a salary

7:56

that allows you to

7:59

move the upper echelon

8:01

of society economically, but

8:03

you get straddled with

8:05

debt. They don't tell

8:08

you that part. And

8:10

there's also, when you

8:12

compare it to our,

8:14

especially this like black

8:17

women, compare it to

8:19

their white counterparts who

8:21

have generational wealth, where

8:23

parents can either, one, pay

8:25

for them to get the first.

8:27

down payment on a home. And

8:30

that has been my largest conversation

8:32

with women of color post graduation,

8:34

those that went to the Stanford

8:36

and the Harvard in my circle.

8:38

They regret it because they said,

8:40

okay, I got this fancy degree.

8:43

It didn't offer me the connections,

8:45

the networking, the fast track to

8:47

see sweet positions or leadership positions

8:49

or whatever it was. And now

8:51

I cannot buy a home, right? Because

8:53

I'm in debt. So what they saw was

8:56

that their counterparts in college were either

8:58

getting one or both, either they paid

9:00

or, you know, were able to get

9:02

through and their parents would help them

9:04

out with like life stage adjustments and

9:06

the cost of those things and starting

9:08

their life post grads as adults and

9:11

see that they're able to build wealth

9:13

by home ownership early, were able to

9:15

build wealth because they started them investing

9:17

early before they went to college so

9:20

they can accrue debt. but at the

9:22

same time they're accruing wealth, right? And

9:24

so none of these things were structures

9:27

that were placed in place for

9:29

people like me who were taught,

9:31

like you're smart, you're one of the

9:33

smart ones, go to college

9:35

without saying the incomplete conversation,

9:37

because the achievement gap, which

9:39

is supposed to be like

9:41

the idea of closing. access

9:43

to quality education and using

9:45

it as a form of

9:47

social mobility without coupling it

9:49

with wealth conversations to close

9:51

the wealth gap is disingenuous

9:54

at best and dangerous at

9:56

works you know so that

9:58

is what I've noticed from my

10:00

high performing friends and family who

10:02

they regret the degrees because of

10:04

the debt, you know, and they

10:07

also have a lot of beliefs

10:09

that they would have done something

10:11

different had they known the financial

10:13

implications for their life. Especially

10:15

in 2001 for particularly black women,

10:18

it was like, you have to

10:20

get into these schools because when

10:22

you go to interview, some white

10:24

fucking bro from. Sorry to Arizona

10:26

State, but some white fucking pro from

10:29

Arizona State is going to be in

10:31

the same applicant pool as you a

10:33

black woman from Stanford and they

10:35

might just wholesale throw out your application

10:38

if you're also from ASU. especially in

10:40

2001 thinking about I mean I was

10:42

you know in eighth grade it was

10:45

a different time where that was so

10:47

pushed and there was this coming out

10:49

of the 90s this idea of well

10:52

everybody's just gonna do well because the

10:54

90s were kind of like prosperous so

10:56

it's like don't worry this is

10:58

gonna absolutely lead you to like

11:01

an amazing corporate job no it

11:03

doesn't I mean I just even

11:05

I remember when I even had

11:07

internships when I was a high

11:09

school student and just realizing that

11:11

early on the the roles that race

11:14

and gender play and colorism

11:16

play in social mobility for

11:18

me and luckily I got

11:20

that lesson when I was 17

11:22

so I knew that if I couldn't

11:25

be my authentic self at 17. that

11:27

is best that I cut my losses

11:29

and move into a career and spaces

11:31

that allowed me to to be. And

11:33

so I became a teacher, you know,

11:35

that allowed me to be just as

11:37

oriented, to be focused on, you know,

11:39

healing our community. And so I could

11:41

have had even more debt, but luckily,

11:44

I mean, 65K is enough with the

11:46

credit card debt, but I didn't balloon

11:48

into like, you know, six figure

11:50

debt, luckily. But yeah, I completely

11:52

agree. You

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and iPad. Where are you from? I'm

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from New York. Okay, I didn't want

17:26

to assume the accent is very charming,

17:28

but I didn't want to assume. I'm

17:31

a New Yorker, but I'm first generation

17:33

American. My family's from Antiga. And also

17:35

about when you talked about healing your

17:38

community, I was curious about being a

17:40

teacher in New York and what that

17:42

was like. What did that kind of

17:45

show you about money? I'm curious. Being

17:47

a teacher in New York showed me

17:49

so many different things. I wanted to

17:52

work in the school district I grew

17:54

up in. I didn't go. to go

17:56

to the schools that I grew up

17:59

in and the community I grew up

18:01

in because they were just poor performing

18:03

unfortunately and we have a lot of

18:06

discussions about that but I went back

18:08

after going to I went to Oberlin

18:10

for undergrad I came back to New

18:13

York because I wanted to not be

18:15

the unicorn in the community about like

18:17

having gone to these like we considered

18:20

to be prestigious schools or good schools

18:22

and then not be an example of

18:24

this is quite possible because I'm from

18:27

around the way too. So what I

18:29

did see as I was

18:31

still in student loan debt and

18:33

had that realization moment with my

18:35

mom in the house, I realized

18:37

too that as I was learning

18:39

about money, I started teaching my

18:41

students about money. So I will

18:43

give them dictionaries, but I'll also

18:45

give them piggy banks because I

18:47

was like my gift to them

18:49

for the for Christmas and I

18:52

really began to teach them in

18:54

various ways. Not just the idea

18:56

about save your money because I

18:58

didn't want to tell them that

19:00

that's where their relationship with money

19:02

started and ended. but did want

19:04

to give them more confidence about.

19:06

you have the power to do

19:08

small things in your life to

19:10

grow wealth, which was with the

19:12

piggy bank. Did I mean? So

19:14

it wasn't the saving aspect. It

19:16

was like the power to control,

19:18

the power to make change aspect

19:20

of what a piggy bank was.

19:22

So we all can like find

19:24

coins in the house, find coins

19:26

around the way, and put them

19:28

in a piggy bank. And that

19:30

really helped them begin to see,

19:32

wow. You know, it was fun.

19:34

I didn't make it too heavy

19:37

handed. Teaching them was one thing,

19:39

but teaching them life skills like

19:41

money was something I felt was

19:43

always missing. And because the community

19:45

is a very immigrant-based community from

19:47

Central America now, the Caribbean, English-speaking

19:49

Caribbean, there were different relationships with

19:51

money for the parents. So I

19:53

realized too that some parents, because

19:55

of their immigration status, right? Because

19:57

of the lack of... the non-parallel

19:59

institutions that existed in their countries.

20:01

So the stock market didn't exist,

20:03

or you know, traditional forms of

20:05

structural savings didn't exist, that having

20:07

these conversations had to first come

20:09

with a level of trust, right?

20:11

You just can't go in and

20:13

be like, here are things that

20:15

you may want to consider if

20:17

they don't, if they think that

20:20

you're somehow connected to what social

20:22

security numbers, somehow connected with, you

20:24

know, identity and legality. you know,

20:26

status. So what I found was

20:28

that the majority of my conversations

20:30

landed with my students. But in

20:32

hindsight, I think that for any

20:34

community that is going to have

20:36

social mobility, it has to be

20:38

intergenerational. You just can't teach the

20:40

kid who's technically the least powerful

20:42

person, you know, you can teach

20:44

them a concept, but then it

20:46

has to be rooted someplace else,

20:48

it has to be connected, and

20:50

it has to be I felt

20:52

done in a way where the

20:54

parents feel that they can express

20:56

and think about their money stories,

20:58

especially if it's coming from two

21:00

different places and they're trying to

21:02

navigate what does that mean to

21:05

bring some of like my... ideas

21:07

from my home country into this

21:09

new place, what does that mean

21:11

for this first generation American child?

21:13

And what does that mean for

21:15

me in my new home? I

21:17

really do think very much about

21:19

how can schools improve how they

21:21

begin to think about financial literacy

21:23

for marginalized communities. It is interesting

21:25

to talk about the parents coming

21:27

in because I feel like it's

21:29

hard to do all of that

21:31

when you're in survival mode. it's

21:33

so much. Yeah, it is. And

21:35

I think that one of the

21:37

things that facilitates conversations, like I

21:39

said, is that trust piece and

21:41

also starting with what's the most

21:43

relatable, right? So whatever structure that

21:45

they, everyone saves in some kind

21:48

of way, some type of institution,

21:50

so let's start there and figure

21:52

out what could be a parallel

21:54

or a comparable institution here and

21:56

start there. So if stocks is

21:58

scary. start with stocks. Do you

22:00

know what I mean? Start with

22:02

consistent savings and then maybe a

22:04

high-yield savings account and then maybe

22:06

a CD. So you begin to

22:08

see this is the the vehicles

22:10

that savings that can support you

22:12

and kind of get your strong

22:14

foundation there once they get comfortable

22:16

with that. Then we move to

22:18

like how does your credit you

22:20

know how does having credit impact

22:22

your home ownership you know because

22:24

not a lot of times but

22:26

enough times for the communities I

22:28

served home ownership was a top

22:30

priority. I was going to ask

22:33

about that. What's that about? I

22:35

think because, I mean, from the

22:37

Caribbean at least, like, having land,

22:39

having a home, is what an

22:41

adult does, you know? And it's

22:43

a form of a form of

22:45

wealth. So there's, and say that

22:47

I'm from Antiga, there's no standard

22:49

stock market. People get wealth through

22:51

their jobs. They get through land,

22:53

right? Through homes. When you see

22:55

a lot of immigrants buying their

22:57

first home sometimes before even Americans,

22:59

it's because in their head, this

23:01

is where you put your money

23:03

to something that you can knock

23:05

on, something that no can take

23:07

you out of, you know, but

23:09

getting them smart about the loans,

23:11

the loan agreements, getting them smart

23:13

about what it means to be

23:16

a first time home buyer, is

23:18

the next step. So that's why

23:20

I would say it would be

23:22

like the reason why home ownership

23:24

is so annoying. to first generation

23:26

or like new Americans or immigrants

23:28

from another country. That's interesting because

23:30

I feel like that's becoming less

23:32

and less something that Americans that

23:34

were born here feel that is

23:36

achievable or feel that they even

23:38

want to do. Part of me,

23:40

it's interesting my friend and I

23:42

were talking about him purchasing a

23:44

home in California and he was

23:46

like, well now I'm rethinking it

23:48

because everything burns down. And I

23:50

was like, yeah, well, and my

23:52

parents just left Florida for a

23:54

few reasons, but one of them

23:56

was sort of like the flooding

23:58

is just. just like too much.

24:01

So I feel like we're also

24:03

becoming so climate displaced that

24:05

these lot of these things that I think

24:07

have been markers of the American

24:09

dream are sort of like much scarier

24:11

now. And I think that's a that's

24:14

a good point in terms of what

24:16

it may mean for Americans versus

24:18

what it may mean for like

24:20

a first generation immigrant. And I

24:22

also think too, I think a couple

24:25

things being an immigrant and they've

24:27

done like different studies about like

24:29

immigration generally, even people who people

24:31

who migrate from the South to

24:33

the North or North or the

24:35

South, people that pick up and move, they

24:37

have a different skill set than the people

24:39

that are ready there in a lot of

24:41

ways because they're not trying to go back

24:43

to, you know, where they came from. They

24:45

had to like make a lot of decisions,

24:47

take a lot of risk. And for a

24:49

lot of times, do in America the jobs

24:52

that the average American may not want to

24:54

do, because, you know, they're new, they're trying

24:56

to acquire wealth and in a lot of ways, two

24:58

things, two things. One, they can send the

25:00

money back home to buy something

25:02

there that stretches the, that has

25:04

the benefit of having the American

25:06

dollar. Two, what I've seen is that they

25:09

may not be as picky in terms of

25:11

the home, right? Like it doesn't have to

25:13

be a brownstone, it doesn't have to

25:15

be in a particular, it has to

25:17

be safe, but it may be the

25:19

smallest home on the best block, or

25:21

it may not be the, it may

25:24

be a regular home in a block

25:26

that will eventually, hopefully, hopefully, hopefully,

25:28

but I think the understanding

25:30

of the landscape makes them

25:32

seem fearless, but I think it's

25:34

a lot of times just ignorance,

25:36

you know, also to their communities

25:38

that they may not be welcomed,

25:40

which a lot which forces them

25:42

to purchase in other areas. And so

25:45

I think those are a couple of

25:47

other factors that that separate and I

25:49

think to Americans in general, as we.

25:52

are grappling with so many different political

25:54

issues grappling with the student loans for some

25:56

of us like you said you were eight

25:58

in 2001 so you You must have

26:01

been through the great resignation. You've

26:03

been through- I was in eighth

26:05

grade. Eighth grade. Yeah, I went

26:07

through a lot. Yeah, you go

26:09

through a lot. So there's a,

26:11

there's a, there's a, it's a

26:13

just, just topic feel for a

26:15

lot of young people that they

26:17

may not ever feel the need

26:19

to wanna place roots down right

26:21

now because everything seems so tenuous,

26:23

you know, job market, you know,

26:25

student loans, some of them are

26:27

forgiven. just overall distrust in institutions

26:29

and a sense of, you know,

26:31

not being able to have these

26:33

markers of success and also people

26:35

not believing what Gen Z and

26:37

what younger millennials are going through

26:39

because they're comparing through the lens

26:41

of baby boomers who had things

26:43

given to them at wholesale in

26:45

a lot of ways. So I

26:47

find it to be, it makes

26:49

sense that for the immigrant mindset,

26:51

that's not their priority, right? that

26:53

they don't have that backdrop in

26:55

context and financial baggage given put

26:57

on them for them to start

26:59

having these types of conversations. Yeah,

27:01

I think we're gonna all have

27:03

to sort of restructure what what

27:05

the markers of success look like

27:07

because they're coming from the boomer

27:09

era and it's like maybe we

27:11

gotta just like not take it

27:13

to heart. You know, you talk

27:15

a lot about emotions dictating money

27:17

and maybe we just have to

27:19

take out the shoulds. and the

27:21

parts that are showing our like

27:23

failures quote-unquote to us when it's

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just kind of the neutral reality

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32:43

you guys known about loans? What

32:45

kind of stuff have they talked

32:47

about or that you've thought about

32:49

you would have maybe done differently

32:51

that this next generation could think

32:53

about? I think that they might

32:55

have gone to schools that gave

32:57

them more money instead of even

32:59

more prestige. As an example, I

33:01

got some partial scholarships to some

33:03

other schools, but because I thought

33:05

that Oberlin had a better, like

33:07

a, a cashier to it compared

33:09

to them, that that would be

33:11

the school, but they did not

33:13

give me, I think I had

33:15

less financial aid when compared to

33:17

other schools that gave me more

33:19

money. That's one. Two, even just

33:21

thinking between community college and then

33:23

doing that for two years and

33:25

then. saving that money and then

33:27

going to a school of your

33:29

choice, whether it be in state

33:31

or in in city. I think

33:33

also considering the concept of high

33:35

schools, even if you're talking to

33:37

a younger audience, super much younger,

33:39

of going to a high school

33:42

that allows you to accumulate college

33:44

credits while you're still in high

33:46

school, because there are high schools

33:48

that allow for you to even

33:50

get an associate's degree by the

33:52

time you graduate, cutting down the

33:54

cost of education. Some of us

33:56

may want to go have a

33:58

gap year or in some money.

34:00

and then go to college, that's

34:02

another thing. Some of us may

34:04

even rethink the whole idea of

34:06

college, just like, you know, have

34:08

a business that they've started to

34:10

grow and then decide to spend

34:12

those four years really nurturing it.

34:14

I think also college isn't for

34:16

everyone and that's not an excuse

34:18

because it's a very touchy topic

34:20

for people of color because we

34:22

don't want to use the messaging

34:24

that college isn't for everyone. meaning

34:27

that you're stupid, you're not capable

34:29

of doing four years of, you

34:31

know, writing and critical thinking, so

34:33

you should just go do something

34:35

else. So I want to be

34:37

very clear about that. Also, having

34:40

a college degree for people of

34:42

color is still a form of

34:44

defense from discrimination, you know, so I'm

34:46

not saying any of that, but I'm

34:48

just saying when going back, things to

34:51

consider it. who's to say that it

34:53

would have been even better or worse,

34:55

but just things to consider when

34:57

you're thinking about the bottom line

35:00

is what are the numbers? And

35:02

if you're comfortable with the numbers,

35:04

then move forward. My biggest concern

35:07

and the concern of my friends

35:09

was that we had no idea what

35:11

loans meant, right? That's the

35:13

thing. We didn't understand it. And

35:16

our parents didn't teach us.

35:18

And we didn't understand what... it

35:20

would mean for our life later. And

35:22

I think because our parents were so

35:24

happy for us to go to some

35:27

of these schools and be part of

35:29

like this American tradition that

35:31

they figured it will all work out

35:33

because you did what you said you

35:35

were supposed to do. And so it's

35:37

that anger and rage from a lot of

35:40

my friends are like now and there, their

35:42

40s and their 50s who are, let's

35:44

just say in a lot of

35:46

ways, extremely credential, but extremely

35:49

broke. Right. still looking down the barrel

35:51

of six and you know six and

35:53

five bigger debt wanting to purchase something

35:55

but not feeling that they can and

35:57

having conflicting priorities.

36:00

financially at this age of

36:02

figuring out, do I want to

36:04

do a career switch? You know,

36:06

do I want to do something

36:08

different? And what would that be

36:10

in terms of implications for my

36:12

income? So it's those kinds of

36:14

things that we talk about. Yeah,

36:16

I don't think you're right. It's

36:18

sort of like going back, you

36:20

have no idea if it would

36:22

have been better. But I think

36:24

speaking to young people moving forward,

36:26

I'm kind of of the mindset.

36:28

I wish that I knew. that

36:30

money wasn't always going to come

36:32

in and that part of it

36:34

is making the money to then

36:36

put it aside so that you

36:38

are comfortable during the times when

36:40

money isn't coming in. I have

36:42

always had this mindset of like,

36:45

just do the thing and then

36:47

I'll figure it out later, which

36:49

now it's kind of funny because

36:51

now I'm older and I'm just

36:53

like, I don't know, the world

36:55

is so bleak that I'm like,

36:57

money's not real, cares. How has

36:59

the people that you work with

37:01

or speak to? How has that

37:03

changed now at all ages for

37:05

the world as it stands? In

37:07

some ways, for a lot of

37:09

people of color, women of color,

37:11

they're like, shit hasn't changed. It's

37:13

like, right? It is just like,

37:15

same stuff. Do you know what

37:17

I mean? So it's just kind

37:19

of like, this is more foolishness,

37:21

but it hasn't really change the

37:23

expectation. the belief systems about how

37:25

you know America treats its most

37:27

most vulnerable communities. So I think

37:29

for, if anything, it may create

37:31

more of a fire to mobilize

37:33

and get organized with their personal

37:35

finances. Because they're like, okay, this

37:37

is going to be a long

37:39

four years. Let me start being

37:41

more intentional about filling the blank.

37:44

reducing my debt, maybe buying locally

37:46

instead of buying Big Box corporate,

37:48

thinking about being able to explore

37:50

what leaving country looks like like

37:52

I did you know I actually

37:54

left the states you know I'm

37:56

in Ghana really yeah when did

37:58

you leave 2023 wait wait wait

38:00

wait we have to go back

38:02

to that yeah wait when why

38:04

when did you decide to leave

38:06

and and why Ghana and start

38:08

at the beginning that's fascinating I

38:10

thought you were in New York

38:12

No, no, I'm from New York.

38:14

I go back, so I'll give

38:16

you all the tea. So I

38:18

studied in Ghana when I was

38:20

in college, right? And like I

38:22

said, my family's from the Caribbean.

38:24

So it had similar cultural things,

38:26

not the same, but similar enough.

38:28

Well, I was like, okay, this

38:30

is a good place. I feel

38:32

comfortable. And then fast forward 20

38:34

years later, 15, 17 years later,

38:36

I meet my husband who happens

38:38

to be Ghanaian in New York.

38:41

Whoa, yeah, yeah, you met at

38:43

like, well, in Hebrew, we call

38:45

that Beshirt, which means Beshirt. Beshirt.

38:47

I love that. Beshirt, yes. Yeah,

38:49

like faded by God. I'm taking

38:51

that. So thanks, Gabe. So, you

38:53

know, so we were just kind

38:55

of like my belief system around

38:57

how I wanted to live. Like

38:59

I had said, I had those

39:01

experiences with internships that was just

39:03

like, this is probably not going

39:05

to be. the best fit my

39:07

personality i need to be in

39:09

teaching and then i started teaching

39:11

for a while and i loved

39:13

it until i didn't and i

39:15

became an administrator and when i

39:17

started when i was in debt

39:19

i started a blog called blog

39:21

spot called girl get your life

39:23

together when i was learning that

39:25

i had to pay this damn

39:27

money back right blog spot hell

39:29

yeah yeah 2000 that's 2006 2004

39:31

right and so i started to

39:33

share with my girlfriend so fast

39:35

forward the blog spot becomes the

39:37

frugal feminista like it's fourth or

39:40

fifth iteration and the frugal feminista

39:42

now is able you know I

39:44

create content I write books and

39:46

all these other kinds of things

39:48

so pandemic hits and I'm looking

39:50

around at my life and I'm

39:52

like this can't be it right

39:54

we have a daughter who then

39:56

is around four or five and

39:58

we started, and then we have

40:00

Trump. And so we have the

40:02

racial reckoning of America happening before

40:04

our eyes as we are quarantined.

40:06

And then we're like, this is

40:08

crazy. This is absolutely crazy. And

40:10

I was really more worried about

40:12

my daughter being able to have

40:14

a regular, regular life. You know,

40:16

I was really, really concerned. It's

40:18

like an existential crisis as the

40:20

world was going through its existential

40:22

crisis. and health crisis, you know,

40:24

like what what am I going

40:26

to leave her? What am I

40:28

going to give her the same

40:30

issues I had growing up in

40:32

the 80s? Let's do something different,

40:34

right? Let's do something different. So

40:36

we planned. We said, okay, we

40:39

had been to Ghana back and

40:41

forth over a couple summers just

40:43

to visit his family and things

40:45

like that. But what if we

40:47

actually moved? we went to visit

40:49

with the lens of what would

40:51

I need in order to feel

40:53

comfortable because as much as I

40:55

love visiting Ghana, I'm a New

40:57

Yorker, so I needed certain things.

40:59

I was like, I'm not going

41:01

to lie and be like, oh,

41:03

it's okay. It's all good. No,

41:05

I was like, wear the cat

41:07

phase. What's up on my Wi-Fi?

41:09

You know, I needed certain things

41:11

to feel comfortable at first and

41:13

then other things I was super

41:15

different. I could acclimate to. where

41:17

the coffee shops, where the things

41:19

that I need, and I found

41:21

them. And I was like, okay,

41:23

fine. I was like, it got

41:25

strong Wi-Fi, we do, minus the

41:27

issue that we just had right

41:29

now. But- My I had a

41:31

service out in Los Angeles last

41:33

night, it's not unique. Yeah, yeah,

41:36

no, but we had super, like,

41:38

so those are the kind of

41:40

structural things that we had to

41:42

bring. And then- I was still

41:44

a vice principal at a school

41:46

and then I put in my

41:48

resignation which was the hardest because

41:50

you like you like you. I

41:52

like a good steady money, you

41:54

know, but it was I could

41:56

always come back and the frugal

41:58

friend Monista was growing. So why

42:00

not take a chance, especially with

42:02

the world and it's foolishness? What's

42:04

the worst that could happen? I

42:06

go back to a job, you

42:08

know, or I have to figure

42:10

it out. So that's like, and

42:12

the rationale for that was like,

42:14

I wanted something, I wanted my

42:16

daughter to be happy and I

42:18

have to deal with people talking

42:20

about her calling her dark. you

42:22

know, X, Y, and Z, African

42:24

booty scratch, you that, you know,

42:26

all those things that I had

42:28

to endure and I could see

42:30

as an educator for elementary school

42:32

and middle school, a lot of

42:35

kids having the same issue. I

42:37

was like, let me just try

42:39

and protect my daughter and my

42:41

peace of mind and, you know,

42:43

come and see as an experiment.

42:45

Could we actually, could we actually

42:47

stay? What

43:00

have you seen as the difference

43:02

for her? I think she's happy.

43:04

I mean, I don't think she

43:06

was unhappy, but you know, New

43:08

York is cold, New York is

43:10

fast. It's like simple things. Like,

43:12

say, I would have to ask

43:14

around, like, do you know a

43:16

doctor or a pediatrician that you

43:18

can recommend that's a black female

43:20

doctor or black female, or like

43:22

someone that, you know, we would

43:24

understand or dermatologist that, like, say,

43:26

for example, in a New York

43:28

City public school. just my experience

43:30

in 17 years. So those are

43:32

like the little ways. Our Saturdays

43:34

are a lot quieter. I just

43:36

think in general, she has peace

43:38

of mind and more space because

43:40

in New York, the places like

43:42

this, you know, and we used

43:44

to worry about making too much

43:46

noise for our neighbors. Now she

43:49

can skip you her screaming, like

43:51

she can holler, you know what

43:53

I mean? She can holler and

43:55

just be a kid. And I

43:57

just don't think that's the same.

43:59

She had the same chance to

44:01

do that in New York where

44:03

we could afford to live. What

44:05

is the financial difference? in Ghana?

44:07

Like what have you noticed? Well

44:09

I think it benefits, like the

44:11

dollar is definitely a great currency

44:13

to have. So quality of life

44:15

is I think a lot higher.

44:17

Just as an example, we have

44:19

people have like a team of

44:21

people to support me. So we

44:23

have someone that drive, we have

44:25

a driver and someone that comes

44:27

and cooks and we also have

44:29

someone that cleans, it's not full

44:31

time. But those kind of things

44:33

that consider luxuries in the States

44:35

and New York is super expensive.

44:37

That's something I can have almost

44:39

on a weekly basis because I'm

44:41

able to have the dollar stretch

44:43

and still pay fairly. It's not

44:45

even like, you know, you're, but

44:47

it's also too being careful not

44:49

to weaponize the dollar against the

44:51

community that you come into, right?

44:53

So even if you could pay

44:55

three times as much, are we,

44:57

it's just like, are you imposing

44:59

what is relatively, cheaper to you

45:01

compared to what's established in the

45:03

market. So I'm careful about that.

45:06

Yeah, you're worrying about the larger

45:08

economy and not kind of gentrifying

45:10

in a weird way. No, that's

45:12

that's exactly what it is. So

45:14

it's a complicated, it's complicated when

45:16

you think about what does it

45:18

mean as African American to come

45:20

back to Africa in the one

45:22

sense, because you never you never

45:24

asked to leave, right? I never

45:26

asked to leave one. But then

45:28

what do you bring back that

45:30

that? Can complicate the relationship of

45:32

coming back, right? What resources do

45:34

you bring? Yeah, what resources do

45:36

you bring like the dollar being

45:38

a leverage piece and like how

45:40

do you? Use that to like

45:42

pay for things and employ people

45:44

which is a good thing, but

45:46

then making sure that You make

45:48

it accessible still for everybody else

45:50

that's already here. It's it's so

45:52

I try as a dance for

45:54

sure, but I would say overall

45:56

personally my cost of living is

45:58

lower but my quality of life

46:00

is higher. What's this? government like

46:02

or what's the I'm just curious

46:04

because the US is falling apart

46:06

what are the like you know

46:08

social services or I think that

46:10

we are held in America under

46:12

like a bizarre Stockholm syndrome and

46:14

and I know Stockholm syndrome is

46:16

not real okay I know but

46:18

and so I'm always curious of

46:20

places where it's like no they

46:23

just are doing it they're just

46:25

doing it differently and better and

46:27

you guys could do that too

46:29

but you just don't think you

46:31

can Well I would say that

46:33

I'm not an expert on gunning

46:35

and politics that's one thing but

46:37

I will say that Ghana is

46:39

definitely, they just had some, they

46:41

had just had elections and the

46:43

new president, Mahama was, was the

46:45

president like two terms ago and

46:47

people seem to really think he,

46:49

similar to 45 and 47, but

46:51

people actually seem to really like

46:53

him here. I mean they still

46:55

do like him in the States

46:57

too, but Mahama seems to be

46:59

pro-community building structures that young people

47:01

and the poor, so there's that.

47:03

But if you're talking about social

47:05

services, You may, if you decide

47:07

to come to Ghana, that you're

47:09

going to have the same social

47:11

supports as you do in America,

47:13

you will probably be very disappointed

47:15

because those things don't exist. So

47:17

people are your support system. Whereas

47:19

the one thing that I do

47:21

miss and give America respect for

47:23

is the efficiency of some of

47:25

its institutions. Not all of them,

47:27

but most of them run, right?

47:29

without, so say for example, there's

47:31

small business services, you can actually

47:33

go into a small business service

47:35

center, sit with a person for

47:37

free because your tax dollars go

47:40

to it, and they help you

47:42

write a business plan, they give

47:44

you free pro bono, the pro

47:46

bono support legally, like those kind

47:48

of things don't necessarily happen here.

47:50

So it's definitely the structures and

47:52

institutional things are not as visible

47:54

and present as they are in

47:56

the states. So. People are your

47:58

infrastructure versus institutions being infrastructure, which

48:00

makes it very... difficult to infiltrate

48:02

when you're new. And it's very

48:04

hard to get in to some of

48:06

these circles, which you may never

48:08

get into. So I would say that, and

48:11

the work around with that is

48:13

having money where you don't

48:15

have to need people, don't

48:17

get me wrong, but the

48:19

money, and unfortunately there is,

48:21

I mean, every place there's

48:23

corruption, but there's a different

48:26

type of corruption. It here versus

48:28

in America where you can definitely

48:30

see even when you're at the

48:32

airport and you're trying to get

48:34

through customs, you can pay a

48:36

customs agent like 50 CDs or 100

48:38

CDs just to get past or to

48:40

get to the front of the line

48:42

right there. So people like in the

48:44

real time can be like give me

48:47

money and I'll get things done for

48:49

you. I mean that happens in the

48:51

state all the time, but it's at

48:53

a higher level, not at the lower

48:55

level. Like there's more checks and balances

48:57

there. Well, most of my work

48:59

is still U.S. focus, but like

49:01

here, there's a, there's a,

49:03

there's a sizable expak community.

49:06

So Canadians, Americans, Brits, like,

49:08

they're all here too. So

49:11

it's funny that I've been

49:13

on panels here for women

49:16

and money and some have

49:18

worked with me that way, but I

49:20

like to stay U. U.S. facing. One,

49:22

because I'm still making sure that,

49:24

well, it's my preference, you know,

49:26

just like that's what I know,

49:28

that's who I love, and I

49:30

live in Ghana, but my work

49:32

and my heart is based on

49:34

my identity as an African-American, right?

49:36

Or someone, so I still, my

49:39

heart and my work is there,

49:41

so I don't mind and the

49:43

principles apply to all women. My

49:45

goal is not to cue your

49:47

relationship in Ghana necessarily. I've done

49:49

your work, like I said. Not a

49:51

high priority for me. That makes sense. Yeah, and

49:53

that's what you know and that's what you

49:55

grew up with and that's the American system.

49:58

Interesting. It's interesting. to, well

50:00

it makes sense to want to help

50:02

and also to be like, bye. Right,

50:04

you have, I feel like it's like

50:07

a combination of just like, because the

50:09

world is global and things can be

50:11

done online, I can still talk to

50:13

you, right, and still be where I'm at,

50:15

and then whoever's listening can be wherever

50:18

they are and still get the

50:20

nuggets that they need. And I

50:22

think that's the beauty

50:24

of it. And also

50:26

just the privilege of

50:29

being in a position

50:32

with financial literacy. and

50:34

having it,

50:36

it's, I

50:40

was like,

50:43

I'm

50:45

an

50:48

artist

50:50

and

50:52

it's

50:54

like, okay. but you could also

50:57

maybe not think that you're the

50:59

cast of rent and maybe just

51:01

have money and then you can

51:04

have options for your art. Money

51:06

and art are not enemies, which

51:09

is what I thought for most of

51:11

my life. That's beautiful, that realization. Well,

51:13

yeah, it's coming kind of late in

51:15

the game, but here we are. So

51:18

where can my audience find you and

51:20

your work and your book and more

51:22

about you? My book, Healy Relationship with

51:24

Money, I'll leave a link to it.

51:27

Depending on where your community falls in

51:29

terms of supporting big box companies or

51:31

not, I have a link to my

51:34

website where you can purchase it and

51:36

also for Amazon. But in general, you

51:38

can get the free excerpt from my

51:40

website without share with your community. You

51:43

can find me online at the

51:45

Frugal Feminista, my website, and on X.

51:47

on Facebook for as much as I

51:49

am the frugal feminista. Thank you so much.

51:52

Thanks for having me. Bad with Money

51:54

with Gabriel S. Dunn is a production

51:56

of noted bisexual, produced by Melissa D.

51:58

Mott and Diamond. and print productions, edited

52:01

by Diane Kang, post-production sound by Coco

52:03

Lorenz, production assistants by Melanie D. Watson,

52:05

and music by Mike Kaplan, Zach Sherwin,

52:07

and Jack Dolgan, sung by Sam Barbera.

52:09

Thank you, love you, bye. I still

52:11

get the nuggets that they need, and

52:13

I think that's the beauty of it.

52:15

And also, just the privilege of being

52:18

in a position with financial literacy and

52:20

having been able to claw out of

52:22

myself out of debt, what? Like being

52:24

a living testament to being like if

52:26

something doesn't work for you doing the

52:28

financial planning to get yourself out of

52:30

it and it doesn't happen overnight But

52:32

that's what money the options for exercising

52:35

your your options, right? That's what it's

52:37

for so Yeah, yeah, that's all it

52:39

is. That's what I would tell my

52:41

younger self is that money gives you

52:43

options and that having it's it's I

52:45

was like I'm an artist and it's

52:47

like okay, but you could also maybe

52:49

not think that you're the cast of

52:51

the cast of rent and maybe just

52:54

have money and then you can have

52:56

options for your art. Money and art

52:58

are not enemies, which is what I

53:00

thought for most of my life. That's

53:02

beautiful. That realization. Well, yeah, it's coming

53:04

kind of late in the game, but

53:06

here we are. So where can my

53:08

audience find you and your work and

53:10

your book and more about you? My

53:13

book hit a relationship with money. I'll

53:15

leave a link to it. Depending on

53:17

where your community falls in terms of

53:19

supporting big box companies or not. I

53:21

have a link to my website where

53:23

you can purchase it and also for

53:25

Amazon. But in general, you can get

53:27

the free excerpt from my website.