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the heart of Europe on

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more at viking.com. Welcome to

0:15

Beren's The Way Forward. I'm Greg

0:17

Bartalis, and my special guest is

0:20

Wen Nautabam, a crescent wealth advisor

0:22

in Atlanta, who at age 36

0:25

runs a team that manages about

0:27

5.7 billion in assets. This

0:29

year, Wen appeared on multiple Beren's

0:31

rankings, including its top 100 independent

0:34

advisor list, top women's advisors, and

0:36

his best in state advisor list.

0:39

And today, Wen will discuss what

0:41

next-gen advisors need to know to

0:43

advance their careers. Welcome to the podcast.

0:45

Thanks so much for having, Greg. My

0:47

pleasure. Tell us a little about yourself,

0:50

how you... accomplished so much in such

0:52

a short amount of time. And then

0:54

let's, you know, discuss some of the

0:56

things that Next Gen Advisers can learn

0:58

from you about how they can best

1:00

position themselves to succeed in the future.

1:03

So I've been an advisor with Cresset

1:05

for three years now. Prior to

1:07

that, I was with Berman Capital

1:09

Advisers, which merged in with Cresset.

1:11

So I've been with the firm

1:13

collectively for about 10 years. I'm

1:15

originally from St. Louis, Missouri. and

1:17

really stayed around the Midwest until

1:19

I went to college. So I

1:21

studied economics and management science at

1:23

MIT. I was in Boston for

1:25

four years and started out my

1:27

career at Morgan Stanley in New

1:29

York, focused on wealth management, but

1:31

really in risk management, specifically. And

1:33

then I was recruited by

1:35

a headhunter to work for

1:37

ACR Capital Management in Greenwich,

1:40

Connecticut as more of a

1:42

product specialist. And from there I decided

1:44

to go to business school. So I was

1:46

at Wharton for two years, studied finance. And

1:48

I met my husband there, and we decided

1:50

to move down to Atlanta. So I re-recruited

1:52

to be down in Atlanta, and I had

1:54

found Justin Berman, who's the founder of Berman

1:56

Capital, through the alumni directory. And the

1:59

rest was history from. there. So my

2:01

role today is really to work with

2:03

clients and be their first call for

2:05

anything related to their financial lives. And

2:07

really that's to help them live their

2:10

best lives and know that they're being

2:12

taken care of. Well that's all very

2:14

impressive. Now there are a lot of

2:16

people who've had very impressive resumes in

2:18

the time horizon you described but who've

2:21

achieved much not as much success. Let's

2:23

go a little beyond that about the

2:25

credentials, etc. about other, maybe things that

2:27

might even be intangible, but other things

2:29

that you think contributed to your success.

2:32

Yeah, so I had a, I'd say

2:34

an usual entry into the business, because

2:36

I didn't, my first clients weren't from

2:38

cold calling or doing a lot of

2:40

networking. I was very lucky to meet

2:43

Justin early on in my career, and

2:45

he really, you know, it was a

2:47

fast growing business. and he needed a

2:49

partner who could help service and manage

2:52

those clients. And that's where I came

2:54

in. And so early on I started

2:56

out with smaller clients and really had

2:58

to prove myself, right? Being able to

3:00

work with clients, deliver excellent service, manage

3:03

portfolios, kind of do everything that a

3:05

family might need in their financial lives.

3:07

And as I was able to prove

3:09

myself, I worked on bigger and more

3:11

complex clients and so forth. In 2017.

3:14

was actually very lucky because there was

3:16

a court case, lender management, that came

3:18

out. That basically established that a family

3:20

office is a trader business for federal

3:22

income purposes, and you can deduct investment

3:25

management expenses and tax-related expenses that you

3:27

couldn't. deduct anymore after the 2017 tax

3:29

reform. And so at the time we

3:31

had a new client who was structuring

3:34

a family office. So we learned a

3:36

lot from working with their, from working

3:38

with that family and their service providers.

3:40

And we really became an expert in

3:42

this space of helping large family offices

3:45

structure that family office in an appropriate

3:47

way, how to manage it. and kind

3:49

of think through the steps of everything

3:51

that they needed, and whether it was

3:53

appropriate for them. And then, so there

3:56

was a big learning curve, you learned

3:58

a lot, and then you applied that

4:00

wisdom and knowledge for other situations like

4:02

that? Exactly. And those clients started referring

4:04

other clients in similar situations, and that's

4:07

how we really started working with very

4:09

complex families. Interesting, and I assume that

4:11

given the complexity and demands of that,

4:13

there are only not that many who

4:15

can perhaps do it and do it

4:18

well, right? plant your flag in the

4:20

ground, so to speak, then through word

4:22

of mouth referrals, you're going to develop

4:24

that further. Exactly. That's excellent. Now you

4:27

talked about the beginning when you were,

4:29

with the earlier clients, they were smaller,

4:31

maybe fewer moving parts, but then over

4:33

time, the complexity, the scale of everything

4:35

grew. Tell me about that in the

4:38

role of like self-confidence. So you had,

4:40

on the one hand, having to win

4:42

the trust of other people. Then over

4:44

time I'm assuming that you gained more

4:46

confidence in yourself is you're like hey

4:49

I can do this To what extent

4:51

if any did you ever experience from

4:53

older clients? Maybe perhaps because of age

4:55

like some older Clients like older advisors

4:57

there's an element of that Did you

5:00

ever experience that and to what extent

5:02

and is there anything you could say

5:04

on that point? Yeah, absolutely. I think

5:06

as a younger advisor you do have

5:08

to work harder. I think you have

5:11

to really know your stuff, know what's

5:13

going on with the client portfolio, know

5:15

the markets, have an opinion, and at

5:17

the end of the day you have

5:20

to make up for what you lack.

5:22

in years of experience with knowledge and

5:24

expertise. And if you can do that,

5:26

oftentimes clients don't care about your age.

5:28

In my entire career, I think there's

5:31

been one client who has not wanted

5:33

to work with me because of my

5:35

age. And that actually has come full

5:37

circle where a few years ago he

5:39

had actually requested that I'd be as

5:42

advisor. But I really think that if

5:44

you can present yourself as being very

5:46

knowledgeable and again just knowing the ins

5:48

and expertise. out of everything. Because when

5:50

you think about a senior advisor, oftentimes

5:53

they are busy in meetings or they're

5:55

on the road and it's hard for

5:57

them to keep up with everything. And

5:59

if you can fill in that void

6:01

and fill in those gaps, that can

6:04

really help again build the report with

6:06

clients. Barron's interviewed you and you said

6:08

in the interview that knowing your numbers,

6:10

the market, why a client's portfolio has

6:13

outperformed or underperformed and demonstrating competence and

6:15

expertise will go a long way in

6:17

building trust and report with clients. So

6:19

Yeah, I mean, I think it's maybe

6:21

self-evident, but if you really can address

6:24

every little thing and they'll say, ah,

6:26

okay, this person knows their stuff. So

6:28

if someone is a next-gen advisor and

6:30

they're trying to get a hand or

6:32

a career and they're doing googling and

6:35

trying to get every edge of their

6:37

career and trying to get every googling

6:39

and trying to get every edge of

6:41

their can, is there anything that comes

6:43

to mind? In terms of like career

6:46

development maybe? success, it could be in

6:48

terms of landing clients, keeping clients happy,

6:50

I mean, however it may manifest, but

6:52

whatever might give you an advantage and

6:55

an edge as an advisor. Yeah, I

6:57

think for me personally, it was starting

6:59

to build that personal board of advisors

7:01

pretty early on. And when I think

7:03

about a personal board of advisors, it

7:06

comprises of multiple types of... people. So

7:08

one being a mentor who really kind

7:10

of guides and provides help on your

7:12

personal growth and then one being an

7:14

advocate for you who will really support

7:17

your growth and promote you more from

7:19

a professional perspective and then kind of

7:21

peers who will give you real feedback.

7:23

And for me personally when I think

7:25

about my career I owe a lot

7:28

of that to having that personal board

7:30

of directors who really elevated my career

7:32

and giving me opportunities. And I will

7:34

say that in order, they can open

7:36

doors for you, but at the end

7:39

of the day, you have to be

7:41

the one that delivers. And again, I

7:43

think it comes back to making sure

7:45

you're knowledgeable on current events, on having

7:48

a view. on the market. And then

7:50

also over time, as you work with

7:52

more complex clients, you're learning things along

7:54

the way, right? Whether it's a state

7:56

planning, tax planning, things as you work

7:59

with a client's outside service providers, and

8:01

you start to specialize. And so for

8:03

me specifically, that was more on the

8:05

family office side of things. And so

8:07

that allowed me to work with, again,

8:10

these more complex clients and gave me

8:12

those opportunities that I wouldn't have had

8:14

otherwise. And tell me about the role

8:16

of, again, specialization, niche. what your thoughts

8:18

are on that? Like for an advisor

8:21

to what extent how important is that

8:23

would you recommend to have a certain

8:25

niche of expertise or what have you?

8:27

I think it is important for us

8:29

when we think about our client base

8:32

it is very a lot of its

8:34

entrepreneurs and so you know when we

8:36

were berman capital it really resonated because

8:38

we were also entrepreneurial. And you kind

8:41

of get that Rolex of helping a

8:43

client exit their business very successfully, helping

8:45

them do a lot of the exit

8:47

planning, and then they start referring their

8:49

clients who are in a similar space.

8:52

And you kind of get that flywheel.

8:54

Right. Virtuous cycle at that point. Exactly.

8:56

Yeah. You mentioned earlier view on the

8:58

market. Do you want to briefly talk

9:00

about the markets where you have conviction

9:03

or what you use? Any thoughts on

9:05

that or wasn't really something we planned

9:07

to talk about, but I just wanted

9:09

to put it out there after. I

9:11

think with the new administration, it's likely

9:14

that rates are going to stay higher

9:16

for longer. An area that we've been

9:18

investing in, as a firm, more generally

9:20

speaking, we've been investing in and are

9:22

heavily invested in alternatives and have been

9:25

for a long time. And so private

9:27

credit has been a big allocation of

9:29

ours for the last decade or so,

9:31

which has been great when you think

9:34

about where rates are basically have been

9:36

zero and private credit have been kind

9:38

of in the 8 to 10% range

9:40

and now that rates are much higher

9:42

in the low teens. And these are

9:45

generally first lien, senior loans, covenants are

9:47

a lot tighter now in this lending

9:49

environment. And when you think about those

9:51

low teen returns, especially if rates are

9:53

going to be higher for longer on

9:56

that risk adjusted basis, it's much more

9:58

attractive than in some other areas of

10:00

the market. And that's an area we

10:02

continue to really like. If we're talking

10:04

about equities, we try to focus on

10:07

quality companies. So ones that have low

10:09

debt ratios, stable cash flows, sustainable earnings,

10:11

strong profitability, those are the ones that

10:13

we're focusing on. And again, with the

10:15

new administration's more America first agenda, we're

10:18

focusing more on the US than more

10:20

than international and emerging markets. How about

10:22

in terms of market cap, any? Preference

10:24

or bias? Large cap looks expensive on

10:27

regardless of which metric you look at,

10:29

but it doesn't mean it can't remain

10:31

expensive. But when you look at some

10:33

other areas of the market like quality

10:35

or mid cap or small cap, there

10:38

might be more opportunity. Okay, great. Now

10:40

let's go back to talk about mentorship,

10:42

which is definitely an important topic. You

10:44

have very helpful mentor. For people listening.

10:46

who don't have a mentor. What do

10:49

you recommend in terms of finding one?

10:51

Like they might just kind of not

10:53

know even where to begin, but just

10:55

high level thoughts, what do you think?

10:57

Yeah, I think, you know, people like

11:00

talking about themselves and people like helping

11:02

other people, and I think it's reaching

11:04

out. to, you shouldn't be scared to

11:06

ask someone that you might not know

11:09

or someone who's much more senior than

11:11

you to get a coffee. Relationships are

11:13

built, they have to be genuine, and

11:15

you have to nurture them, but they

11:17

have to start somewhere. And I think

11:20

you taking the first step and asking

11:22

them to learn about them, and how

11:24

did they get to where they are

11:26

today, and also being very upfront with

11:28

what your goals are and what you

11:31

want to do, and checking in every

11:33

so often, and making sure. that you're

11:35

staying in touch. I think that's a

11:37

great way to start building. Now for

11:39

your own story, when did you realize

11:42

that this was the profession for you?

11:44

I didn't actually realize it right away.

11:46

So I had first learned about wealth

11:48

management when I was at MIT recruiting.

11:50

So this was during, right after the

11:53

financial crisis, there wasn't a ton of

11:55

jobs, but. lot of applicants and so

11:57

I studied economics and management science and

11:59

I knew that I wanted to do

12:02

something either in finance or consulting and

12:04

I kind of went through the traditional

12:06

sales and trading, MS& banking, corporate finance

12:08

jobs, etc. and interviewed for all of

12:10

those and at one of the one

12:13

of the coffee chats with one of

12:15

the firms I'd met someone who was

12:17

in wealth management and I hadn't really

12:19

heard much about it and through the

12:21

coffee chat I learned more about the

12:24

industry and I loved the fact. that

12:26

it was a good mix of analytical

12:28

financial markets and just the personal aspect

12:30

of being in private wealth, I thought

12:32

really appealed to me. And so when

12:35

I had gone through the recruiting period,

12:37

I ended up having a number of

12:39

offers, which I was very lucky to

12:41

have at the time, and I ultimately

12:43

decided to take the one in private

12:46

wealth. So I started Morgan Stanley, and

12:48

they had a great rotational program, and

12:50

then at the end you get placed

12:52

somewhere. So I was placed in risk

12:55

management, which really wasn't what I had

12:57

envisioned private wealth to be, because it's

12:59

a lot less cliner action and a

13:01

lot more rules enforcement. And so I

13:03

was ultimately recruited to work for hedge

13:06

funds. So I actually left the industry

13:08

and did something different. And then when

13:10

I went to business school, I once

13:12

again went through the search of what

13:14

I really like to do and what

13:17

kind of job. does that look like?

13:19

And it brought me back again to

13:21

wealth management. And this time I wanted

13:23

to make sure that I was working

13:25

directly with clients. And so when I

13:28

had met Justin and through some of

13:30

the other firms I talked to, I

13:32

was looking for specifically as a wealth

13:34

advisor working directly with clients. And when

13:36

I started doing that, I realized that's

13:39

exactly what I was meant to do.

13:41

Excellent. Now you mentioned that there are

13:43

a number of aspects to this. to

13:45

the work that you like involving the

13:48

in no particular order, the dimension of

13:50

working with people, the analytical, mathematical, all

13:52

of it's there. Is there any one

13:54

aspect that you that most fires you

13:56

offer makes you feel happy with the

13:59

career choice you made? Yeah, I mean

14:01

this is a people business at the

14:03

end of the day and if you

14:05

don't like people that's probably not the

14:07

right career choice for you. For me,

14:10

it's, you know, personal finance, it's a

14:12

very intimate thing. And so you really

14:14

get to know your clients. You know

14:16

what their goals are. you can get

14:18

to know their kids. And so over

14:21

the decade that I worked with some

14:23

of my clients, we've helped them, you

14:25

know, successfully exit businesses, we've helped their

14:27

kids get into college, mentor them through,

14:30

you know, what's the right job for

14:32

them potentially, help clients set up foundations

14:34

and donor advise funds to help them

14:36

magnify their impact. And those are really

14:38

very tangible things that you can see.

14:41

And those really, it's really rewarding. And

14:43

when we think about our clients, they're

14:45

very philanthropic. So, you know, we have

14:47

a client who is very passionate animals.

14:49

She's setting up a wildlife sanctuary. And

14:52

so we're helping our set up a

14:54

501c3. She's putting $5 million into it.

14:56

And so things like that, another client,

14:58

for example, he is a pediatric doctor.

15:00

giving back to the hospital is very

15:03

important to him. So we manage his

15:05

donor advice fund, and as that continues

15:07

to grow, he's able to give more

15:09

and make a bigger impact, and those

15:11

are all things that we can see,

15:14

and it's very tangible and rewarding. That's

15:16

great. That's great. What piece of advice

15:18

would you have for someone listening? Like,

15:20

what's some pit of wisdom that you

15:23

learned only by dint of doing this

15:25

up to now, where you might be

15:27

like, oh, I wish someone told me,

15:29

A, A, B, and C. You know,

15:31

is there something where you could quickly

15:34

dispense some wisdom to the people listening

15:36

for shorthand without, you know, to the

15:38

extent it can help? Yeah. You know,

15:40

I kind of learned this from Justin,

15:42

but not every piece of business is

15:45

good business, and it took me some

15:47

time to learn that. There are just

15:49

some clients or opportunities where it's a

15:51

big emotional drain, big mental drain for

15:53

both you and the team, and it's

15:56

just not the right fit. And there's

15:58

an opportunity cost that comes with that.

16:00

Tell me like what are some reasons

16:02

aside from an obvious one like oh

16:04

they don't have enough assets or you

16:07

know sometimes it's self-evident that's not good

16:09

fit but if there's an ambiguity what

16:11

might be a factor or something where

16:13

you say you know the fulcrum if

16:16

there's like a tipping point you're like

16:18

no or yes like what to the

16:20

extent that you could you know crystallize

16:22

a gray area what would you say

16:24

I think some clients are more you

16:27

know they're they use a lot of

16:29

resources and they might not treat your

16:31

team with respect. And those are not

16:33

people that you necessarily want to have

16:35

a long-term relationship with. And that's what

16:38

you really want in a client, right?

16:40

Like a long-term relationship over hopefully generations.

16:42

Right. And I guess the nice thing

16:44

is as you become more successful, you

16:46

can be choose here and pick here,

16:49

right, and more exacting about. exactly who

16:51

you want to work with. Exactly. Yeah.

16:53

It's definitely harder when you're starting out,

16:55

but I think recognizing that balance over

16:57

time, that sometimes you have to take

17:00

one step back to take two steps

17:02

forward. Well, thank you so much for

17:04

joining. Thank you so much again for

17:06

having me. This is wonderful. Great. Thank

17:09

you again. My guest has been Win

17:11

Not a Bomb. For more podcast and

17:13

the latest wealth management news, visit barons.com/

17:15

advisor.