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to catch up on the latest

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episodes, without the ads. Hey

1:52

folks, welcome to the battles of the

1:54

First World War podcast. Returning to the

1:56

podcast today is Michel Gravelle,

1:58

my French Canadian. friend, and

2:01

he was raised in Ontario,

2:03

Canada. He has worked in

2:05

construction sales since before 1995.

2:07

Michelle visited the song battlefield

2:10

somewhat by mistake in 1984

2:12

when he was 16, and

2:14

there he discovered the cemeteries.

2:16

And so began a decades-long

2:18

passion for World War I

2:21

history. Michelle, as you will recall,

2:23

is the author of several books on

2:25

World War I. You may not have

2:28

heard of him as his books have

2:30

been published in France, and so they

2:32

are, of course, in the French language.

2:35

Michelle, thanks for coming back

2:37

on the show. Oh, hi. Thanks for

2:39

having me, and I hope this is

2:42

of interest to your viewers. Yeah,

2:44

so let me just go ahead.

2:46

So for folks, there's a video

2:49

version here that you're probably not

2:51

going to want to miss. I'm

2:53

about to start sharing some stuff

2:55

here. in just a moment. Okay.

2:58

And our first question. So

3:00

Michelle, tonight we're gonna

3:03

talk about a

3:05

gentleman named John

3:07

Stevenson Youngson. Tell us

3:09

how you came to quote

3:11

unquote meet this gentleman.

3:13

Well, I have a museum in

3:16

my flat and I have

3:18

a display on the black

3:21

watch, Canadian and Scottish black

3:23

watch. And then I came across

3:25

a vendor who had a Queen

3:28

South Africa medal and a 1915

3:30

star and a Great War

3:32

ID tag to the 42nd

3:34

Battalion which was the Canadian

3:37

Battle. It was the second

3:39

contingent of the Canadian Black

3:41

Watch in the Great War.

3:43

Okay, and they were they they

3:46

were very badly The guys

3:48

next experience antiquarian, but the

3:50

the description wasn't quite right

3:52

and it's it's called that

3:54

like we in the Commonwealth

3:56

we collect medals like a

3:58

lot of us bought I

4:00

don't know if that's so much

4:02

in the US. Sure. Mainly because

4:04

they're really cool and they're named.

4:06

So and the metals to guys

4:08

that did something great or who

4:10

were killed are highly prized and

4:12

it's a common thing to then

4:14

go see if you have a

4:16

casualty to go to the cemetery

4:18

and get your picture taken with

4:21

his headstone. Because of course all

4:23

our casualties are still in France

4:25

or Belgium. Right. So anyway, it's

4:27

a broken set though. He would

4:29

have been entitled to the British

4:31

War Medal for serving in

4:33

the Great War, and because

4:36

he was in an act

4:38

of front, he would have

4:40

also gotten the victory medal,

4:43

the inter-allied victory medal. Okay.

4:45

But the thing was still

4:48

interesting to me because he

4:50

was, he... I would find out

4:52

that he was a militiaman and

4:55

it wasn't called that back then

4:57

in the 1890s, but it was

4:59

what became the Canadian Black Walk,

5:02

which is a militia unit. Their

5:04

mandate is to serve within Canada,

5:06

but he volunteered with about 30

5:09

other guys that were accepted from

5:11

his militia regiment. When Canada sent

5:13

its first contingent to South Africa

5:16

in 1899, he went with them.

5:18

And he fought in the most

5:20

famous battle of the Boer War.

5:22

One of the most famous battles

5:24

in the very significant to Canada

5:26

because we did very well was

5:29

a part of Berg drift. So

5:31

that would be like finding medals

5:33

to a guy who was at

5:35

Sam One Hill with the Rough

5:37

Riders. And... I didn't understand

5:39

that because he also has

5:42

a memorial cross in the

5:44

collection and in Canada if

5:46

you get killed in action

5:48

or die by cause of

5:51

war in the military, your

5:53

wife and your mother get

5:55

a memorial cross. So he

5:58

had a memorial cross. but

6:00

he doesn't appear on the book

6:02

of the dead or on the

6:04

war graves commission so i didn't

6:06

know what happened to him okay

6:09

but i don't know a whole

6:11

lot about the south african war

6:13

and that but but anyway in

6:16

late in eighteen ninety nine he

6:18

landed in Cape Town he was on

6:20

uh... rms sardinian i'm a liner fan

6:22

so i i i like to keep

6:25

track of the liners they landed

6:27

in Cape Town oh there it is yeah

6:29

Yeah, quick question, Michelle. How

6:31

large was that Canadian

6:34

contingent, that first

6:36

contingent that deployed? It

6:39

was a battalion of about

6:41

1,040, including officers. and they

6:43

were drawn from right across

6:45

Canada mostly I think like

6:48

I I'm not an expert

6:50

yet but I think they

6:52

mostly went to the militia

6:55

regiments and I think they

6:57

were able to be quite

6:59

picky because there was such

7:02

a small contingent. There were

7:04

6,000 or 7,000 Canadians ultimately

7:07

in multiple drafts that

7:09

eventually served for South

7:12

Africa. Over a thousand

7:14

of them, though, were used

7:16

to garrison Halifax. They freed

7:19

up, some reason it was

7:21

a British regular unit in

7:24

Halifax at the fortress, so

7:26

they raised a contingent to

7:29

guard the fortress. They count.

7:31

So it's a really small.

7:34

contribution. If you compare with

7:36

the Australians, I think they

7:39

had 16 or 17,000 and

7:41

then New Zealanders

7:43

had 6,000. But it

7:45

always goes back to

7:47

in Canada, we don't

7:49

like imperialistic wars. The French

7:52

were really kind of sympathetic

7:54

to the Boers, which were

7:56

the Dutch people that they

7:58

were at war with. It was

8:00

a big deal. Do we, do

8:02

we not? We were a dominion. We

8:04

were the first dominion of the

8:06

British Empire. We didn't have

8:09

any obligation to go

8:11

into this fight. But

8:13

finally they did. And

8:15

they named the Second

8:17

Special Service Battalion Royal

8:19

Canadian Regiment. And

8:21

I'm really thrilled because it was

8:23

only 1 ,000 guys. There was another,

8:26

there was a reinforcing graft of

8:28

100. So I have a king,

8:30

a king, a queen South Africa

8:32

metals are quite common. There was

8:34

over 300 ,000 awarded. But to

8:36

the Royal Canadian Regiment, there's only

8:38

1 ,000. So the metal is quite

8:40

valuable. But

8:43

he participated at part

8:45

of Berg Drift. He got

8:47

the part of Berg Bar. Okay.

8:50

Well, can bring them back. I'll just explain what

8:53

they were doing very quickly. It's very simple. So

8:55

I'm going to call up the map here. Yeah. You'll

8:58

see Cape Town is on the

9:00

coast in the bottom. Yep, bottom

9:02

left. They followed the rail line

9:04

up towards the, this

9:08

is, there were two British

9:10

colonies, Cape Colony and Natal.

9:12

Okay. And that's

9:14

not marked there above Mafeking there.

9:16

There was a, I think

9:18

British Bikwana land, which was separate.

9:20

Okay. But the boars, not

9:22

liking the British colonists, they moved

9:25

inland and set up the

9:27

Orange Free State and the Transvaal.

9:30

Now, so the minute he

9:32

landed at Cape Town, he

9:34

qualified for the Cape Colony

9:36

Bar. Okay. Had he

9:38

participated in a bar, like

9:40

had he qualified for a bar,

9:42

for a battle in Cape

9:44

Colony, he wouldn't have gotten that.

9:46

He would have gotten the

9:48

battle. There

9:51

was a few, but most

9:54

of the fighting was on Orange Free

9:56

State and the Transvaal. Okay. So they

9:58

crossed into the Orange Free State. And

10:00

in the battle, what the

10:02

vendor of the medal,

10:05

I think on the

10:07

18th of February 1900,

10:09

first time, first

10:11

offensive action by,

10:13

well, first major

10:16

offensive by a

10:18

Canadian expeditionary force.

10:20

And in the battle, what

10:23

the vendor of the

10:25

medal didn't know is that,

10:28

excuse me. This one

10:30

of the company

10:32

commanders Captain Arnold

10:35

was badly wounded.

10:37

The stretcher bear that

10:39

went to help got shot

10:41

in the knee. I think

10:44

another stretcher excuse

10:46

me another stretcher bear

10:49

was killed apparently.

10:51

But then. I think Captain

10:53

Fraser, Youngson's company commander,

10:55

asked for two volunteers.

10:57

So a young man

10:59

named Wilkins and a

11:01

little bit older, John

11:03

Youngson, who was about 24.

11:05

Okay. So he was old by the

11:08

time he got to the Great War,

11:10

because he was already 24 when he

11:12

went in action. They went and

11:15

the officer... And this is thanks

11:17

to a researcher that went through

11:19

the newspapers, found like a two-page

11:22

eyewitness account from the company commander

11:24

of their bravery. They went in

11:27

and a hail of boar bullets.

11:29

They started carrying the body back.

11:31

They had to stop cover. They

11:34

eventually got them to the aid

11:36

station. But I just recently read

11:39

the closest thing we have to

11:41

an official history. The legend

11:43

is it's the medical

11:45

officer, Colonel Fice, is

11:47

giving credit. And I

11:50

think what happened is

11:52

Otter, the battalion commander,

11:54

saw how brave he

11:56

had been helping the

11:58

wounded that day. So

12:00

they don't mention youngson or Wilkins

12:03

Okay, and this fellow on the

12:05

internet who who was he was

12:07

studying the black watch the early

12:10

black watch So he went through

12:12

the newspapers and he found this

12:14

and this just pumped up the

12:17

value of my medals Because in

12:19

the strand the following September they

12:22

talked about it and they said

12:24

that Wilkins and youngson had been

12:26

recommended for the Victoria Cross, but

12:29

it had been turned down Wow

12:31

So they said just just being

12:34

nominated was was such a big

12:36

deal. Then he fought in another

12:38

he got a bar for Drey

12:41

Fontaine and then he crossed over

12:43

into if you follow the the

12:45

we see Blum Fontaine. Blum Fontaine.

12:48

Yes. All the arrows. Well in

12:50

there. And then they were marching

12:53

to Pretoria. Okay. So he fought

12:55

outside of Pretoria, outside of Johannesburg,

12:57

so it was called the Johannesburg

13:00

Bar. Okay. But he marched in

13:02

with the victorious army in Pretoria.

13:05

And there was a sizable English

13:07

population there. I guess they were

13:09

happy. And the war really should

13:12

have, that broke the back. Especially

13:14

at Parterburg Drift, they captured 4,000

13:16

boars. One of the major generals

13:19

got surrendered after a week. And

13:21

the accidentally, the Royal Canadian Regiment,

13:24

was in line when it came

13:26

time to attack. So just out

13:28

of the luck of the draw.

13:31

They brought that to a successful

13:33

conclusion. What the Canadians are embarrassed

13:36

about is that four of the

13:38

eight companies actually withdrew though before

13:40

victory was at hand because somebody

13:43

heard fall back and we don't

13:45

know who call that order and

13:47

that tarnished a little bit their

13:50

victory but it was victory nonetheless.

13:52

So that's what I've been learning.

13:55

Now what's really, now this guy

13:57

went home. So you can tell

13:59

that he wanted to serve, because

14:02

he was already a soldier. And

14:04

then they sent a couple of

14:07

other contingents, but by 1901, there

14:09

were no Canadians left, so and

14:11

they were in a guerrilla war,

14:14

so they wanted mounted troops. Okay.

14:16

Oh! Mounted troops? He goes down

14:18

to the armories and volunteers again.

14:21

He wanted more and I don't

14:23

understand why he'd have gone back

14:26

because the conditions in South Africa

14:28

were horrible. It was freezing at

14:30

night Sweltering hot in the day.

14:33

They were never fed correctly. They

14:35

had a lice problem everything and

14:38

you know the the But he

14:40

wanted this guy wanted to be

14:42

deployed. Yeah, you indicated in an

14:45

email to me that he was

14:47

a guy who might have enjoyed

14:49

Having things go kaboom around him,

14:52

like a bit of a combat

14:54

junkie, perhaps. Yeah, because there was

14:57

no reason why. And the year

14:59

previous, the future King George V,

15:01

which would become famous in the

15:04

Great War, was on a grand

15:06

tour of Canada, and Youngson is

15:09

one of the few handful of

15:11

men that actually received his Queen

15:13

South Africa medal from him. So

15:16

that's like being decorated by for

15:18

a campaign medal by the vice

15:20

president sure sure adds more value

15:23

to my metal just all this

15:25

is documented now right trusting the

15:28

metal is it's not which metal

15:30

it's it's who had it mm-hmm

15:32

so he and uh He qualified

15:35

for the South African 1902 bar,

15:37

which in the Spink Medal Guidebook,

15:40

it's a 700-page Bible on British

15:42

campaign medals. It says South Africa

15:44

1902 in combination to the Royal

15:47

Canadian Regiment. is scarce. That would

15:49

only have been maybe 40. Because

15:51

you had to go back or

15:54

you had to have stayed in

15:56

South Africa, you know, for more.

15:59

And then he, he, he know

16:01

he wanted his metal because they,

16:03

after Queen Victoria died, they created

16:06

what was called the King's South

16:08

Africa medal. It was for service

16:11

in 1901 in 1902. But you

16:13

had to have spent, I think,

16:15

18 months total in South Africa.

16:18

And he wrote a very well-written

16:20

letter to the, I guess, the

16:22

militia department saying, you know, I'm

16:25

entitled to the King South Africa

16:27

Medal. Here's my service dates. And

16:30

he also thought he should get

16:32

the orange free state and transval

16:34

bars. Those are... Those are area

16:37

bars. The minute you qualified for

16:39

a battle, you didn't get them.

16:42

So he didn't get those. But

16:44

they didn't reply, they didn't acknowledge

16:46

what he said, they just said,

16:49

we're pleased to present you, your

16:51

South Africa 1902, don't let the

16:53

door slap you in the ass.

16:56

And that's basically, that's what he

16:58

got. Wow. Michelle, can we back

17:01

up a bit here? So we've

17:03

got the map of South Africa

17:05

and this is like basically following

17:08

the battles of the the war

17:10

war, correct? Right. Well, this is

17:13

specifically the advanced operator in 1900.

17:15

Advanced operator. Okay. All right. And

17:17

now I'm just going to go

17:20

through some photos here. And this

17:22

is some stuff that you sent

17:24

me of a museum display talking

17:27

about Pardberg in 1900. That's what

17:29

Youngson would have looked like in

17:32

1900. This is a. This is

17:34

part of a drift is a

17:36

mock-up. The mannequins are a little

17:39

clumsy, but basically you'll see the

17:41

kit. You know, it's very old-fashioned,

17:44

you know. Sure, but already seeing

17:46

the cocky, obviously they're wearing a

17:48

pith-style helmet, but you've got... got

17:51

a cocky uniform, you've got the

17:53

puddies and everything, precursors to the

17:55

World War I. And most of

17:58

them, if you see early pictures,

18:00

they were in green rifle surge

18:03

originally. A lot of them. And

18:05

in South Africa, anybody left with

18:07

the green rifle, you know, like,

18:10

you know, like the rifle regiments

18:12

were green, I don't know if

18:15

they do that in the American

18:17

army, but, and they weren't a

18:19

rifle regiment, so I don't know

18:22

why they had rifle green, but

18:24

anyway, this is what he would

18:26

have looked like. They had pottes

18:29

are identical to the Great War,

18:31

the sun helmet obviously is, and

18:34

they had an early edition of

18:36

the Lee Enfield. I was going

18:38

to ask about that. So that's

18:41

just a little bit of a

18:43

close up there. And then you

18:46

provided this photo of the of

18:48

the landfield rifle and then that

18:50

scarf. Yeah, the scarf was knitted

18:53

by Queen Victoria and she took

18:55

it upon herself. Anybody that if

18:57

a unit voted that somebody deserved

19:00

the Victoria Cross and didn't get

19:02

it, she would present them with

19:05

a scarf. And she knitted four

19:07

before she died in 1901. And

19:09

I don't think she ever had

19:12

the opportunity to actually present at

19:14

one. But this is somebody from

19:16

the 43rd regiment who was in

19:19

the, he was from Ottawa, an

19:21

Irishman from Ottawa. He was in

19:24

at Pardaburg. And he was singled

19:26

out for his bravery and qualified

19:28

for this. And this was found

19:31

years ago in a farmhouse in

19:33

Ireland. And so it was donated

19:36

to the museum and the armory,

19:38

the local armory, basically across the

19:40

street from the war museum, where

19:43

the guy's home, where he would

19:45

have enlisted in 1899, the building,

19:47

the armory is from 1875, so

19:50

the building is the one he

19:52

would have must. to? Okay. They

19:55

have it, copy. Somebody knitted an

19:57

identical copy, including all the mistakes

19:59

Her Majesty the Queen made, because

20:02

apparently she wasn't that good a

20:04

knitter. Wow. All right. They copied

20:07

it identically. Like she missed some

20:09

loops or something. I'm not a

20:11

knitter. I don't know. But I

20:14

like to think Youngson and Wilkins

20:16

should have gotten one of these.

20:18

Right, right. And just so Canadian

20:21

listeners and maybe any American listeners

20:23

who are nearby, where they can

20:26

see the the mannequin and the

20:28

Parteberg display. As part of the

20:30

Canadian War Museum in Ottawa. Okay,

20:33

Canadian War Museum in Ottawa folks.

20:35

Yeah, excellent. And then there's a

20:38

little display. So this is Major

20:40

H.M. Arnold who Youngson helped save?

20:42

Yeah, but unfortunately he died a

20:45

wound a couple days later and

20:47

he's still at Pardaburg-Drift. There's, I

20:49

don't know, 17 or 18 men

20:52

that were killed on the 18th

20:54

of February and then fighting about

20:57

10 days later again. And the

20:59

headstone looks new because they're... I

21:01

think they're marble and they're splendid

21:04

looking. I don't even know who

21:06

pens to these because they're not

21:09

part of the Commonwealth Wargrave. Right,

21:11

right. But now my metal is

21:13

connected, it had it been a

21:16

casualty because there's so few killed,

21:18

there's only 300 people were killed

21:20

and died of disease. A casualty

21:23

would be worth more, but he's,

21:25

there's very few men that you

21:28

actually have an eyewitness of what

21:30

they did in the battle. Right.

21:32

Normally you buy a metal to

21:35

the RCR, you don't know what

21:37

he did. And he's connected to

21:40

the only officer that was killed

21:42

in the operation. So up goes

21:44

the value of my metal again.

21:47

I see. And don't worry, you

21:49

guys, we're going to get to

21:51

the Great War. Yes, yes, there

21:54

is a great war connection here,

21:56

but already later. This is the

21:59

Queen South Africa metal with the

22:01

Cape Colony, Partiberg, Driefontain. Johannesburg and

22:03

South African 1902. And I think

22:06

this is my favorite artifact that

22:08

I've collected over the years. And

22:10

it spurred me to read

22:13

more about the the Boer

22:15

War, well, the South African

22:17

War. Just because that's

22:19

what happens, you buy

22:21

metals and then you want

22:23

to know about the battle

22:25

of the metal you bought. You

22:27

know, sure. Very cool. So

22:30

it says John Youngson, I

22:32

think he finished the war

22:34

as a corporal and it's

22:36

in grave rural Canadian regiment

22:39

so it's quite a valuable

22:41

metal and you know the

22:43

metal collecting drops off after

22:46

1935 because in the second

22:48

great war the World War

22:50

II we didn't name the

22:53

medals. So now there's millions

22:55

of like you know. France

22:57

and Germany stars. There's millions

23:00

of them and unless you

23:02

know the provenance, like it

23:04

comes from the family and

23:06

everything, it was just not

23:08

as interesting to collect. Gotcha.

23:10

And you can see, had

23:13

they not named this, I wouldn't

23:15

have known this whole story. And

23:17

this one here? Well, this

23:19

maniac stayed in the black

23:21

watch. Okay. Warm brings that,

23:23

well, Canada. It gets involved

23:25

in early, or very early,

23:27

August 1914. The Black Watch,

23:30

your casualty from your town

23:32

that died in Canada

23:34

when you went to

23:36

Wanker, he was 13th

23:38

battalion. The Black Watch

23:40

is one of the

23:43

only militia regiments that

23:45

sent over full battalions.

23:47

So their first contingent.

23:49

They raised the first contingent when and

23:51

then they were eventually called the

23:53

13th Battalion Canadian Infantry. I expect

23:56

he would have been working feverishly

23:58

to because he was a at

24:00

this point, to organize this,

24:02

and he probably wanted to

24:04

go. Then I found in the service

24:07

file, in 1915, early 1915, they

24:09

were authorized to raise a second

24:11

regiment of the Black Watch, which

24:14

they named the 42nd, because

24:16

the Scottish Black Watch was

24:18

traditionally the 42nd regiment of

24:20

foot. So they actually asked

24:22

for that number, and they

24:25

raised a third battalion. the

24:27

73rd Canadians and they

24:30

took that number

24:32

because the The 42nd

24:34

Regiment of Foot and the 73rd

24:36

Regiment amalgamated in the 1880s to

24:38

become what's called the Black Watch.

24:41

Now it's the Royal Regiment of

24:43

Scotland. You could go crazy trying

24:45

to figure out the lineage of

24:48

all these things. But he wanted

24:50

to go and then it's funny

24:52

because I saw his attestation paper

24:55

and on the same day, so

24:57

his white, he was married by

24:59

now, he was 41. Okay. went

25:01

over his wife, his wife obviously

25:04

went with him to the armory

25:06

on Blurie Street, which still exists,

25:08

and she signed a permission slip

25:11

for him to be able to

25:13

enroll in the 42nd. I think

25:15

he probably would have gone with

25:17

the 13th, just by the guy's

25:20

profile. Yep. So, so... 41,

25:22

he gets special authorization from

25:24

his wife to to sign

25:26

up for the... Yeah, and

25:28

I saw the form. The

25:30

same day he signed his

25:33

attestation paper, volunteering for overseas

25:35

service. And Michelle, one more

25:37

time, what is the medal

25:39

we're looking at? What is

25:41

it called again? Well, this

25:43

is the 1914-15 star. Okay.

25:45

These are, there was the

25:47

1914 star was for people

25:50

that enlisted before the end

25:52

of the first battle of

25:54

Eep in November 1914. It's

25:56

often called a monstar. Okay,

25:58

if you're under the

26:00

guns you would get a

26:03

bar on your ribbon. Okay.

26:05

And then if you arrived

26:07

in after November 22nd

26:10

1914 up until December

26:12

31st 1915 you got

26:14

I just shorted to

26:16

the 1915 star and

26:18

there are no bars. Okay.

26:20

So he's an early arrival.

26:23

and the war. This is the

26:25

most valuable of his great war

26:27

medals. Unfortunately, we don't have the,

26:29

there's also a British war medal

26:32

for anybody who served outside the

26:34

country. I think Canadians that were

26:36

stationed in England and that never

26:39

went to France would have the

26:41

British War Medal. But if you

26:43

were enlisted in Britain and only

26:45

worked in Britain, you would not

26:48

get the medal. There was a

26:50

technicality. And then the victory medal,

26:52

the inner allied victory medal, I

26:54

don't know if it's the same

26:56

with the Americans, but you had

26:58

to be under gunfire. So if

27:00

you were in an office job,

27:02

or if you're a drill sergeant

27:04

because you're too old, and you're

27:07

in England, you wouldn't get the

27:09

victory medal. And there are

27:11

no bars to the victory

27:13

medal. I don't really collect

27:15

great war medals so much

27:17

because I don't find them.

27:20

They get repetitive. There's so

27:22

many of them. As you

27:24

know, they issued how many,

27:26

you know, they issued like

27:28

six and seven million of

27:30

the same metal, right? Right.

27:32

But they're still interesting because

27:34

they're named. So, so anyway.

27:36

All right. So, and we have here

27:39

his dog tag. Yep, the

27:41

42nd Canadians, his dog tag

27:44

survives. Wow. Okay. And that

27:46

one, one eight, zero, five,

27:48

that would have been his,

27:50

his service number? Yeah.

27:53

John Stevenson, Youngson,

27:55

42nd Battalion, Canadian.

27:58

Canadians. Okay. that

28:00

usually put this

28:02

is this is his his

28:04

wife's memorial cross and

28:07

its name to him

28:09

okay I'm jumping ahead

28:11

but he he he will

28:13

die sometime in the 1920s

28:16

I haven't figured out the

28:18

date okay and it had to

28:20

have been a board would have

28:23

had to have said that

28:25

he died prematurely due to

28:27

war service for his wife

28:30

to get this. I don't

28:32

have the doctor's reporter any

28:35

paperwork other than if she got

28:37

this because I don't think

28:39

that we're in a hurry

28:41

to say to everybody that oh

28:43

you died because a war service

28:46

a guy got hit by a

28:48

truck right. So I think it's

28:50

his situation his his

28:53

extensive war service I

28:55

think probably shortened

28:57

his life right so so this

28:59

this is very valuable

29:02

as well this is Sardinian

29:04

only about 10,000 tons

29:07

these are little ships

29:09

compared to like the

29:11

Titanic but okay and then

29:13

here's our war connection so

29:15

he lands in France via

29:18

UK, they were in French

29:20

Flanders, which is not far

29:23

from Armonteer basically, and they

29:25

were there for a while

29:28

and they had to organize

29:30

the third Canadian division.

29:33

and they were placed in

29:35

the third Canadian division and

29:37

then in some time in

29:39

nine by 1916. I'm a

29:41

historian. I'm very careful. I'd

29:43

never give definition if I'm

29:46

not sure. By early 1916,

29:48

by sometime in 1916, the

29:50

third Canadian division was sent

29:52

to Flanders, Eeps, alien. And

29:55

in, you know, by June

29:57

they were manning Monsorral and

29:59

some high ground. probably the

30:01

only bit of high ground that

30:03

the allies had in the salient

30:05

and maybe you'll remember it more

30:08

than me because I haven't been

30:10

there in about 15 years but

30:12

I understand you went to Montserral.

30:14

Yeah so I was on I

30:16

found myself on Observatory Ridge near

30:18

Montserral and this was the this

30:21

past summer in 2024 yeah you

30:23

know for folks who haven't visited

30:25

the Ibra... area. You know, we're

30:27

talking about hills and, you know,

30:29

you were talking about hills that

30:31

are, you know, out in the,

30:33

the Meers are gone on the

30:35

podcast. We've talked a lot about,

30:37

like, you know, Hill, you know,

30:40

272 or something like that, you

30:42

know, and that, that number references

30:44

meters, the height of the hill

30:46

in meters, in Ipres, very different,

30:48

you know, you have hills, like,

30:50

like, Hill 62, that's 62 meters

30:52

above sea level. think that

30:54

these would just be like

30:57

bumps in the landscape, but

30:59

it's deceptive because when you

31:01

walk the ground, that Hill 62,

31:03

that Montserral, that observatory ridge, it

31:06

matters a huge deal. Like just,

31:08

you know, just being a few

31:10

meters above the enemy ensures you

31:13

can, you have dominance over a

31:15

wide range of the old Epress

31:17

alien. So this is this is

31:20

a battle that I really want

31:22

to cover on the podcast Monce

31:24

Sorrell because It was a one of

31:27

the major Canadian engagements that

31:29

that doesn't really get talked about much

31:31

In fact, I think a I want

31:33

to say a Canadian Brigadier General was

31:36

actually killed in the course of the

31:38

fighting for Monce Sorrellander the third Canadian

31:41

division. Yeah, he was out in the

31:43

front line looking after things and then

31:45

They went and hidden and dug out

31:47

and apparently they, well they found his

31:49

body surprisingly and he's he's the highest,

31:51

one of the highest officers killed period,

31:53

but he's the highest Canadian, he was

31:56

the major general. Yeah, so this is

31:58

a major battle that took place. I

32:00

want to see 16? Was it June

32:02

of 16? Yeah, just before the

32:04

song. Yeah, I read a memoir

32:07

where the soldier referred to it

32:09

as third heap. You know, I was

32:11

missing. You know where we're 30

32:13

is passion-dale but the Canadians at

32:15

that point was well this is

32:17

30. Well what the Germans did

32:19

is they decided to blow some

32:21

mines under these hills because the

32:23

local it was a locally planned

32:26

assault apparently the German commander decided

32:28

that it was bugging them that

32:30

they didn't have the high ground

32:32

so they blew up the third

32:34

Canadian division. I think I think

32:36

it's the action where we lost

32:38

the most prisoners. I know the

32:40

mounted rifle brigade was decimated. They

32:42

had just cashed in their horses

32:44

and became infantry. And somehow,

32:46

I don't know what happened.

32:49

I haven't read the war

32:51

diary for that day yet.

32:53

Somehow, Youngson was on strength

32:55

and somehow he survived this.

32:57

But I wish I could

33:00

just ask him what happened

33:02

here. Right. So this is June

33:04

of 1916. Now. The Battle of

33:06

the Somme begins in July the

33:08

next month down in Picardy. And

33:11

in September, you have the Canadians

33:13

come in as part of the

33:15

better-known push on

33:17

September 15th with the debut

33:19

of the tanks at Flair

33:21

Corsolet. And so, and this

33:23

is where our man, Youngson,

33:25

finds himself here in the

33:27

vicinity of looks like Corsolet on

33:30

the map. Well, this is taken

33:32

from the 42nd battalion history. Okay.

33:34

So it's the, you'll see on

33:37

the right is the village of

33:39

Corsalette. And on the left, if

33:41

you look, you'll see Mukay Farm

33:43

or Mukau Farm or Mucky Farm.

33:46

It's famous on the Somme. There's

33:48

a little Australia memorial there. Yes.

33:50

So the third division is not

33:52

well known. I didn't know anything

33:55

about what the third division did,

33:57

but they were on the extreme

33:59

left. flank of the Battle

34:01

of Flair Corsolet. And you

34:03

can see there's a sunken

34:05

road that goes from Mucky Farm

34:08

to Corsolet. And if you see

34:10

the arrows, the two assaulting companies

34:12

of the 42nd Battalion, I believe

34:14

the battle started on the 15th,

34:17

but I think the 42nd went

34:19

in on the 16th. And our

34:21

friend, oh, I have to mention,

34:23

when they went to the song.

34:26

During the summer and in August

34:28

they were training for this battle

34:30

and Youngson was having trouble He

34:32

had varicose veins in one of

34:34

his legs and he had pain

34:37

in his leg Okay, probably could

34:39

have gotten evacuated But he

34:41

soldured on and went over

34:43

the top and on the first day

34:45

he was hit by two clean machine

34:47

gun bullets in the right arm So

34:49

he was taken from the field and

34:51

like that we talked earlier I said

34:54

it was an honorable wound because

34:56

He healed eventually very quickly

34:58

from the bullet wound, so

35:01

I presume it didn't hit

35:03

any bone, but he couldn't

35:05

march. And they invalid him

35:08

while he was in England

35:10

and gave him useful work

35:12

until 1919. But he claimed,

35:14

I saw, he protested, said, I

35:16

can tough five miles marching.

35:19

And they said, no, you're

35:21

done. Like you're... you know

35:23

you're done and he

35:25

did stay in England

35:27

he was demobilized in

35:30

Montreal in in in 1919

35:32

but if I could just put

35:34

this into perspective it's

35:37

it's imagining you come

35:39

across a metal group

35:41

to a guy who was at Sam

35:43

Mihiel and the Murs are gone

35:46

who's 41 who's a sergeant not

35:48

like an officer or a brigadier

35:50

or something like I know it

35:52

just another like a foot slogger

35:54

right and then you find out he

35:56

had been at Sam one hill right recommended

35:59

for the Medal of Honor

36:01

and turn down and then he

36:03

volunteers again to

36:05

go fight the guerrillas in

36:07

the Philippines. Yeah. Then he

36:10

volunteers for the A EF

36:12

and his his Spanish-American War

36:15

medal would have been presented

36:17

by the vice president. Wow,

36:19

yeah. And and then he'd

36:21

die, he'd... died due to war service

36:24

so you'd have the folded flag that

36:26

the memorial cross would be equivalent that

36:28

if you part of the collection you

36:31

had the the flag that was on

36:33

his casket. Yes. So that's how significant

36:35

a fine this is. This is very

36:37

rare to find something this interesting. Quite

36:40

a story. So he's you know so

36:42

he serves in this attack on Corsolett.

36:44

He's hit. He's invalided out due to

36:47

his, you know, his wounds, but

36:49

also the the varicose veins. What

36:51

do he, he's demobbed in 19?

36:53

Do you know, I know you don't have

36:55

his date of death or anything. Do

36:57

you have any idea what what he

36:59

did in the remaining years of his

37:01

life? No, I think I'm gonna,

37:04

I have so many artifacts. You

37:06

know, you can't research everything, but

37:08

this one I'm going to, I'm

37:11

going to, I'm going to dig

37:13

deep. If anything, I need to

37:16

do something because to correct the

37:18

official record, because if you look,

37:20

whatever history books are on

37:22

the, on the, the, the, the, the,

37:25

the, the, the, the, the, the, the

37:27

war, he's not mentioned and he should

37:29

be mentioned, and had he

37:31

gotten the scarf, who he was.

37:33

I see. Yeah. So I can,

37:36

and it's self-serving too by, by

37:38

ironing out the provenance

37:40

will raise the value of the

37:42

metals. So that I have to

37:45

sell them, but you know, it's

37:47

just worth more if it's that

37:50

interesting, you know. Yeah, and just

37:52

as our final question here, I

37:54

wanted to ask you like, you're

37:57

you're going to, you know,

37:59

you've... this this metal grouping and

38:01

and they're gonna be in your

38:04

possession do you do you have

38:06

any other intention for them like

38:08

it like loaning them out to to

38:10

a museum or anything well my

38:12

intention is and I'm going Well,

38:14

my intention is there, you've

38:17

been the visa in Artois

38:19

on the Arras Cambray Road?

38:21

I think we were there.

38:23

They're redeveloping their little downtown,

38:25

they're putting some commercial units

38:27

in, and they want to

38:29

open a museum. But they

38:31

don't have anything to put

38:33

in the museum and they

38:35

don't want to do another,

38:37

like there's a museum at

38:39

Bulkor, there's museums all over

38:41

with a lot of battlefield

38:43

relics and things like that. So

38:46

they're trying to do something

38:48

else. So my whole flat is a

38:50

museum, I'm thinking if they'll accept

38:52

it and if I can

38:54

negotiate a gift to Canada

38:56

for my taxes, I would

38:58

be prepared to. be the core

39:00

of their museum. And I would

39:03

send Youngson there and tell a

39:05

story. All right, wow, amazing. Oh,

39:07

that's super cool. This is, what

39:09

a great, like little, little

39:11

snapshot into one of the, you

39:14

know, millions of lives who served

39:16

in the Great War and in

39:18

the Canadian forces. This is, this

39:20

is really cool, Michelle. But one

39:23

day you're going to look at,

39:25

was there anybody from San Juan

39:27

Hill at the Mirzar Ganel? Let

39:30

me stop my share. Yeah, this is really

39:32

cool. Like, I'm so glad that you

39:34

reached out and this is like, yeah,

39:36

just a great look into a life.

39:38

It's unfortunate we don't have a photo,

39:40

but I mean, that was part

39:42

of the time too. Not everybody,

39:44

many millions of people went through

39:46

their lives during the First World

39:48

War, even with the availability

39:50

of handheld cameras and

39:52

everything, many people went through

39:54

life never being photographed. And so

39:57

we have some folks that we

39:59

simply. Heaven. idea what they look like.

40:01

Yeah, I'm hoping I'll find something. I

40:03

want to do, I want to scour

40:05

a little bit more. But like when

40:07

he died, I just did a

40:09

quick look at the Mount Royal

40:12

Cemetery, which is the big Protestant

40:14

cemetery on Mount Royal and Montreal,

40:16

and I didn't find him in

40:18

there. He was a good Presbyterian,

40:21

so he could have easily, there's a

40:23

whole pile of veterans up there from

40:25

all over the... So I just did, I

40:27

did a quick look, is he

40:30

there? And Youngson, there was only

40:32

about five Youngsons that served in

40:34

the entire First World War for

40:36

the Canadian Army. I didn't realize

40:38

it was such an uncommon name,

40:40

which is helpful sometimes when the

40:42

names are too fond of. Health

40:45

isolate people really faster. And I

40:47

don't, I'm not a collector, I'm

40:49

a storyteller. I like to pick

40:51

things that fit the story I'm

40:53

telling. This was part of the,

40:56

the, the, the, I built my

40:58

black watch display on one artifact,

41:00

an original pen and ink drawing

41:02

from 1918, and then I went

41:04

on a tangent and did the

41:07

black watch. And the black watch

41:09

is always marketable, it's very famous.

41:11

So you want to do things

41:13

that will interest people, so I

41:16

said the black watch is a good

41:18

bet. Plus I had the

41:20

I was lucky enough to find

41:22

some some some artifacts so I

41:25

my collection now I have a

41:27

42nd regiment of foot the campaign

41:29

metal to the siege of luck

41:32

now okay Indian mutiny 1850s

41:34

I have the third Ashanti

41:36

war in Ghana with the

41:38

Kumasi bar where the 42nd

41:40

regiment of foot one of

41:43

VC and did have were

41:45

very successful. Then they became

41:47

the black watch so I

41:49

have them the Nile 1885

41:51

with a curbican bar. That's

41:53

when they were down the

41:55

river trying to rescue Gordon.

41:57

Okay. General Gordon. And

41:59

then... And I have a, a Scottish

42:01

black watch, Parterberg, Queen South Africa

42:04

Medal. They were at the

42:06

Battle of Parterberg. I have

42:08

a black watch, King South

42:10

Africa Medal, but unfortunately I

42:12

don't have the match in

42:14

Queen South Africa Medal. And

42:17

I have a trio to

42:19

a guy from the Indian

42:21

Army who is with a

42:23

regular black watch battalion. And

42:25

they were recalled from... from

42:27

India and they served in

42:29

French Flanders in 1915 and

42:32

he disappeared, he was killed and

42:34

disappeared. I have to track him down

42:36

because I don't think there was a

42:38

major action that day, he's on a

42:40

memorial to the missing, but I have

42:43

his trio and then I have a

42:45

42nd battalion, there's a guy

42:47

named Will Bird wrote this famous

42:49

memoir about the 42nd Battalion and

42:52

there was a guy, what was

42:54

his name, Corporal Hallet? He's

42:56

mentioned all the guys he knows he's

42:58

he's you know he they're all like

43:01

the editor verified that all these people

43:03

were real and I found he was

43:05

he disappeared at a place called Parvey

43:07

Lair during the Battle of Amiens in

43:10

18 and I had his victory medal

43:12

that so so the author knew this

43:14

guy that's why I bought it wasn't

43:16

a particularly expensive metal and it's a

43:19

broken group I only have his victory

43:21

medal and that drops the value. I

43:23

see you want a complete group. I see.

43:25

I see. Yeah. Wow. Quick question

43:28

for folks who may not

43:30

know this. Where, what is

43:32

the name Black Watch? What

43:34

does that mean? Well, it

43:36

started in the Highlands,

43:39

the 42nd Regiment of

43:41

Foot. They're not sure

43:44

early on they were given

43:46

the nickname Black Watch.

43:48

Oh, okay. And they're actually

43:51

the Royal Highlanders.

43:53

was the official name and the

43:55

Canadians like the 13th and 42nd

43:57

Battelle Lake Youngson it was that

44:00

Like their shoulder flash says RHC,

44:02

Royal Highlanders of Canada. But before

44:04

I think World War II, they

44:06

changed, everybody called them the Black

44:08

Watch, so they changed it to

44:10

the Black Watch, as did the

44:13

Scots. But it's, it's, it's, the

44:15

regiments are, there's a big regimental,

44:17

in the British Army, the regiments

44:19

all have different uniforms. You know,

44:21

they have different cap badges. Because

44:23

like even like I was reading

44:26

stuff on the Murs are gone

44:28

and there's like the 371th infantry

44:30

300 you know other than the

44:32

Marines they're they're all they're all

44:34

the same I don't even know

44:37

if they wore numerals on their

44:39

maybe on their helmets to say

44:41

what regiment they were but anyway

44:43

the the the the the black

44:45

watch of Canada started as the

44:47

royal Scots. and they became allied

44:50

about 1904 with the black watch

44:52

of Scotland and then they started

44:54

wearing they got to wear the

44:56

red hackle which is the plume

44:58

and they wore the black washed

45:00

tartan. So they're culturally they're linked

45:03

although operationally they're they're They're two

45:05

different armies. And you'll see that.

45:07

A lot of the Highland regiments,

45:09

because there's a real mistake to

45:11

kilts and stuff like that. The

45:13

regiments that really like them, there's

45:16

more pedigree if you align with

45:18

an old Scottish regiment. But you'll

45:20

take another famous regiment in the

45:22

Great War from Canada that raised.

45:24

uh... three battalions as well was

45:27

the uh... forty eight highlanders of

45:29

canada and it was a completely

45:31

new regiment in eighteen ninety one

45:33

the next available regiment number was

45:35

forty eight so they just call

45:37

themselves a forty eight highlander and

45:40

then they took the tartan of

45:42

the family of the founder uh...

45:44

i forgot what it is and

45:46

that they're not affiliated with any

45:48

anybody Interesting, but they fought, like,

45:50

oh, and Youngson, it's funny that

45:53

what he would have worn, you

45:55

saw what he wore at Pardaburg,

45:57

when he was doing guerrilla warfare,

45:59

he would have had a slouch

46:01

hat, looked more like a cowboy,

46:04

and then when he went to

46:06

France, he had the tin helmet

46:08

and a kilt. So he had

46:10

a variety of different uniforms, but

46:12

he was a long-serving. That's a

46:14

lot of service. And the fact

46:17

that he stayed in the militia

46:19

and the interwar years, you go,

46:21

this guy just wants a deployment,

46:23

right? Like, I don't think he

46:25

went because of the king or

46:27

because of the boars were bad.

46:30

I really get a feeling this

46:32

guy just wanted to be deployed,

46:34

right? Because he had every opportunity

46:36

to not go. Like he was

46:38

married, he was old. Yeah. Right,

46:41

right. And certainly they needed him

46:43

at the armories on Blury Street

46:45

throughout the war. He would have

46:47

found useful. work there, right? Right,

46:49

right. Because they were sending reinforcing

46:51

graphs, they would have needed an

46:54

experienced sergeant, but he wanted to

46:56

go where they went caboon, you

46:58

know. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's

47:00

pretty telling, like, it's funny what

47:02

you can find out with just

47:04

a few details, like the fact

47:07

that he keeps wanting, finding himself

47:09

deployed. I mean, after a while,

47:11

it's like, all right, it's like,

47:13

it's a choice here. We'll never

47:15

know. I know, I know, I

47:18

know, I know, all these little,

47:20

all these little stories that we

47:22

lose. Wow, Michelle, this has been

47:24

super cool, man. This is, this

47:26

is a great little, uh... I

47:28

don't know, great, great, great little

47:31

insight, great, great little view into

47:33

one private life and every man

47:35

at war here, man. This is

47:37

super- It's very concise and we're

47:39

able to offer some education for

47:41

people if they watch this. You

47:44

know, now you might have some

47:46

of your viewers look up, there's

47:48

a number of boar war documentaries

47:50

on YouTube for free, you know,

47:52

like that's how I hear about

47:55

something. go on YouTube to see

47:57

what you know what there is

47:59

you know when I've never heard

48:01

of something you know yes I

48:03

like to but we had to

48:05

tie it into the great war

48:08

like I wouldn't have bothered you

48:10

had it been a strictly South

48:12

Africa thing like I know I

48:14

appreciate it yeah and I've actually

48:16

I can I have a couple

48:18

of books I don't know them

48:21

by by name right now but

48:23

I do have them on the

48:25

shelf and to listener I believe

48:27

Dennis who sent them to me

48:29

many years ago I'm not going

48:32

to lie man I have not

48:34

read them yet, but... No, I

48:36

have a lot of books I

48:38

haven't read yet. But they are

48:40

there, and I will get to

48:42

them, I promise you, and I'm

48:45

super appreciative that you sent them

48:47

to me with a map of

48:49

South Africa all those years ago.

48:51

It's greatly appreciated. And I will

48:53

post those up on the, on

48:55

social media, so folks, if you

48:58

want to get a little deeper...

49:00

It just showed bang, they got

49:02

off at Cape Town, they're heading

49:04

to Pretoria. Yeah. And they had

49:06

some fighting, you know, along the

49:09

way. And because nobody would even,

49:11

nobody has a concept of a

49:13

South Africa, even myself, you know,

49:15

I wasn't, I didn't know where

49:17

Pardberg was, I heard about it,

49:19

I knew enough to buy the

49:22

metal, but I didn't know where

49:24

it was, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

49:26

Yeah. Oh, fantastic, man. Well, very

49:28

cool. Anything. Anything else that you're.

49:30

What's the next rabbit hole you're

49:32

going to go down because this

49:35

is super cool? Oh, I have

49:37

to finish a book actually about

49:39

my Monti LaPro book. Okay. I'm

49:41

not happy with how I handle

49:43

a memoir and I'm stuck actually

49:46

ironically on the 42nd Battalion. They're

49:48

the ones that I'm I went.

49:50

last September, but I didn't have

49:52

enough time to walk the ground

49:54

as much as I wanted to

49:56

and so I need to finish

49:59

that and And I think I'm

50:01

going to work on this here. I

50:03

think I want to flush it out.

50:05

Like I'm embarrassed. I don't have

50:07

a picture of him and I don't

50:09

know when he died. But I mean,

50:12

this is just, you know, a few

50:14

days research to bring me up to

50:16

speed. And I read the Canadian history

50:19

of the war. So I would know

50:21

something about what I'm talking about. There's

50:23

a lot more to be done. I

50:25

could write a book about this guy. This

50:28

guy would. There's enough material

50:30

to do a book, especially if

50:32

I went to South Africa

50:35

to see, but apparently it's

50:37

very dangerous. Yeah, I've heard. Wow,

50:39

man, super cool. Well, I am, man.

50:42

Well, we will... Good luck with

50:44

everything. Yeah, thanks. Thanks, and

50:46

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