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This BBC podcast is supported

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UK. the UK. BBC Sounds. Music, Radio,

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Podcasts. Hello lovely

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curious-minded people. Welcome people, welcome to

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the we have our Today we have

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our own on take on the

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marine fashion world as we

0:17

investigate a bold new trend among

0:19

killer whales. They're wearing fish

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hats. I I am fully supportive

0:23

of all all style choices but

0:25

we want to know want to know why.

0:27

And wider billionaires seem to want

0:29

to escape to escape Earth and other planets?

0:31

other But first, people have

0:33

been posting videos of themselves pouring

0:35

milk away in protest over a new

0:37

additive that's being tested in cow

0:39

feed. It's called in and it's been

0:41

developed to make the cows that eat

0:43

it burp less methane gas. Just

0:45

have a listen to this. less Let's

0:48

see what that is. have a listen to this.

0:50

See what that is? Yeah, Allah, you're going down

0:52

the drain man. the drain mate. Won't

0:57

be be buying you again one of those

1:00

That's one of those on Tiktok. And on have seen

1:02

a and you might have seen a

1:04

lot like it. have of them have had

1:06

millions of views. cite Many of them

1:08

cite the company which Foods, which has started

1:10

a trial of the bovia supplement with three

1:13

big supermarkets and 30 farms in the

1:15

UK. This is a This is a story that's

1:17

become wrapped up in conspiracy theory and

1:19

misinformation. So we want to know exactly

1:21

what the supplement is, how it's been

1:23

tested, and how we know whether it's

1:25

safe. safe. Joining me are Sharon Hughes,

1:28

professor in animal science and food scientist and

1:30

food scientist Dr. both of you, welcome to

1:32

the Hello both of you, welcome to the I

1:34

start off with I start a simple

1:36

question for you, question

1:38

and why do cows produce

1:40

methane do what's the problem with

1:42

that? what's the Methane production is

1:44

very, very natural in very

1:47

so your cows and sheep, and

1:49

sheep They are quite unique.

1:51

They have a very complicated

1:53

gut gut. and the most important

1:55

part of their gut is

1:57

the fore stomach, in in particular the

1:59

compartment. we call the rumin and that

2:02

rumin is full of all of

2:04

the microbes that are required to

2:06

break down feed. So when they

2:08

break down the feeds they naturally

2:10

produce hydrogen and then we have

2:12

these other microbes that take advantage

2:15

of that and they will actually

2:17

convert some of the carbon dioxide

2:19

in that rumin with the hydrogen

2:21

to make methane. I see. So,

2:23

and how much of a problem

2:25

is it that cows burp a

2:28

greenhouse gas that they produce methane?

2:30

Well, it's a huge, huge problem.

2:32

They contribute to most of the

2:34

agricultural greenhouse gases through burping this

2:36

methane. Methane obviously has more of

2:38

a greenhouse warming effect than carbon

2:41

dioxide and some of the estimations

2:43

show that If we were to

2:45

reduce methane emissions from these animals

2:47

by 46%, we would reduce the

2:49

global warming by 0.3 degrees centigrade.

2:51

So in every fraction of a

2:53

degree it counts, doesn't it, when

2:56

we're talking about it? It counts,

2:58

yeah. It really counts. So how

3:00

does bovia reduce methane emissions? So

3:02

bovia... actually targets that last step

3:04

in that conversion of carbon dioxide

3:06

and hydrogen to methane. So it

3:09

inhibits that very last step. And

3:11

when it does that, it's very

3:13

clever technology because it's been developed

3:15

using computational-based techniques. So they essentially

3:17

look at that enzyme. for that

3:19

last step in the conversion of

3:22

methane. And then they looked at

3:24

chemicals, which would be specifically inhibit

3:26

that last stage. But when it

3:28

does it, it actually reduces methane

3:30

by 25% and that data is

3:32

consistent over 150 studies. Right. So

3:35

the cows are still. burping but

3:37

they're burping hydrogen instead of methane

3:39

is is that right? Exactly correct

3:41

so when they reach you the

3:43

food then hydrogen gets released and

3:45

of course hydrogen is not a

3:48

greenhouse gas. And Stewart since Allah

3:50

announced this trial of this supplement

3:52

that is going to actually act

3:54

inside the cow to reduce these

3:56

methane emissions there's been a number

3:58

of claims circulating online from Bovia

4:01

being toxic to causing cancer. Now

4:03

the company that makes Bovia has

4:05

told... inside science that those claims

4:07

are all fake news and misinformation

4:09

and that it's been tested and

4:11

it's safe. So how do we

4:14

know that? What is the evidence?

4:16

Sure, well this has been used

4:18

for many years and it's being

4:20

used in 55 different countries and

4:22

I completely understand why people are

4:24

concerned about something being added and

4:27

something that is synthetic and there's

4:29

this natural reaction that we all

4:31

have but unfortunately this is a

4:33

classic conspiracy theory of people getting

4:35

half the facts. and then sort

4:37

of making a narrative around it.

4:40

Coming to Bovia specifically, how is

4:42

it proven that it's a safe

4:44

product, that it's a safe supplement?

4:46

It's been through lots of very,

4:48

very lengthy testing that's done on

4:50

cells, that's done on animals, and

4:53

because it's been used, we also

4:55

know that it's broken down completely

4:57

in the digestive tract. of the

4:59

cows and none of it gets

5:01

into the milk at all. So

5:03

it's really nothing that we should

5:06

be concerned about. And actually this

5:08

should be a good news story.

5:10

I guess the fundamental point there

5:12

is that it's not. it's not

5:14

in the final product and that

5:16

has been tested has it that

5:19

there is no trace of this

5:21

supplement in the milk or the

5:23

cheese in that dairy product yes

5:25

absolutely there was an EU report

5:27

and they collected all the studies

5:29

and yes they came to the

5:32

conclusion that there is non in

5:34

the milk and it poses no

5:36

threat to either the cow or

5:38

to us but it is new

5:40

and and there is concern about

5:42

it one of our listeners AJ

5:45

and Glasgow actually emailed inside science

5:47

drinks a lot

5:49

of milk a lot

5:51

he wants to

5:53

know exactly how

5:55

to know is how Vovia

5:58

make sure it's

6:00

safe. Can you

6:02

go into sure it's

6:04

safe. how you

6:06

carry out those

6:08

tests to prove

6:11

that it's safe

6:13

for humans? for humans?

6:15

So it starts starts off on theoretical

6:17

so you you get this chemical and

6:19

you test on cells cells lab lab

6:21

so you get a theoretical idea

6:23

of does this this have a

6:25

potential to cause cancer. cancer? You

6:27

can also test it on

6:29

animals, typically mice, mice. a good

6:31

proxy for animals in general and

6:34

for us and then you find out

6:36

what the maximum dose is the

6:38

they can tolerate before harm comes.

6:40

That then gives you a ballpark

6:42

figure for scaling it up it up for

6:45

larger animals, so what the maximum dose dose

6:47

would be. be. And is And is

6:49

that realistic that we could ever

6:51

get that level in our bodies

6:53

for it to ever be a

6:55

risk? a risk? you can also do

6:57

tests on healthy human subjects. these are all

6:59

a raft of different things that

7:01

are done in the testing process.

7:03

And the the conclusion from all those

7:05

is that is is no harm. I

7:07

I guess lot of lot of this

7:09

comes down to whether, you know, know,

7:11

people trust of cite and of cite and

7:13

understand that evidence. of the issues of

7:16

the issues was there was a

7:18

Food Standards Agency report last year

7:20

that said that one of the

7:22

chemicals that Bovia contains should be

7:24

considered corrosive to and a skin irritant.

7:26

That was problematic because people then

7:28

saw that as something harmful being

7:30

added to feed. You know, is feed. My

7:33

You know, is that a worry? it

7:35

is that it's understanding of it the that

7:37

it's added to the cattle feed so

7:39

when the farmers get it it's

7:41

just part of the feed And I think in

7:43

the I think in the context of

7:45

it being used by workers in

7:47

concentrated amounts then it would be just

7:49

be normal to wear protective equipment

7:52

so I think it's just a standard

7:54

safety precaution that's put there and

7:56

it's destroyed in the guts of the

7:58

cows. We're not going to be... So again,

8:00

I think you're sort of, you're

8:02

joining the dots in a wrong

8:05

way there. And Sharon, what about

8:07

in the cows themselves, this is

8:09

something that the cattle will eat,

8:11

how has it been tested to

8:13

check that it's not detrimental to

8:15

the cattle in any way? Yep,

8:18

so there's been 150 studies in

8:20

60 different countries that have looked,

8:22

you know, the first thing that

8:24

whenever we do work of this

8:26

kind, we look at animal welfare,

8:28

that's first and foremost. So when

8:31

these experiments were done, they look

8:33

at the health of all of

8:35

the organs over time. Also, they

8:37

will look at the health of

8:39

the room and itself. So really

8:41

very deep, very comprehensive studies, and

8:44

none of these studies have shown

8:46

any detrimental effect on the animal.

8:48

Is this both the first additive

8:50

of its kind? Is there anything

8:52

else comparable? Yeah, so bovia is

8:54

the first of its kind that's

8:56

been developed to specifically inhibit that

8:59

last step in methane production. We

9:01

have been looking at different dietary

9:03

interventions for many years. Many years

9:05

ago, people would concentrate on some

9:07

of the plant secondary compounds like

9:09

essential oils, but none of them

9:12

have the same effect as bovia.

9:14

So why do you think the

9:16

story Sharon of Bovia has been

9:18

so difficult, has been so problematic?

9:20

Well, you know, the story of

9:22

Bovia has been around for 15

9:25

years. It's been 15 years in

9:27

the making. but for some people

9:29

this might be the first time

9:31

that they've heard of it and

9:33

the minute that you hear that

9:35

terminology or chemical of course it's

9:38

going to ignite some fears etc

9:40

and that's cascaded of course on

9:42

social media but as was said

9:44

you know there is no other

9:46

additive of its kind that's been

9:48

tested in such depth and the

9:51

evidence shows no detrimental effect. and

9:53

as was said in all of

9:55

those 150 dairy studies where they

9:57

looked for the presence of bovia

9:59

in the milk not one of

10:01

those studies has picked a betrace

10:04

of bovia because it's a sense

10:06

once it's had its effect in

10:08

that room and it's broken down.

10:10

Stuart what would you say about

10:12

that? You know is a lot

10:14

of it about perception we seem

10:17

to be happy with some food

10:19

additives and processes but not others?

10:21

Absolutely, yeah. One interesting thing about

10:23

this is that at the same

10:25

time the report came out about

10:27

Bovia being safe. The same report

10:30

looked at 11 other additives to

10:32

feeds and interestingly none of those

10:34

got picked up by social media

10:36

so it shows that actually there's

10:38

very little logic to the fear

10:40

that is that has been circulated.

10:43

Thank you to Sharon Hughes from

10:45

Queen's University Belfast and Food Science

10:47

broadcaster and author Stuart Farriman there

10:49

for bringing some science to a

10:51

dairy social media storm. Now, 2024

10:53

was the year that saw the

10:56

first civilian spacewalk by tech billionaire

10:58

Jared Isaacman. And of course he's

11:00

not the first billionaire to cast

11:02

his travel aspirations beyond our planet.

11:04

Some have even set their sights

11:06

on the colonization of Mars. So,

11:09

science author Kelly Wiener Smith asks,

11:11

is it really feasible for the

11:13

richest people on Earth to live

11:15

elsewhere in the solar system? Earth

11:17

is enduring its warmest decade on

11:19

record. World War III seems closer

11:21

than at any time in recent

11:24

memory. AI is taking all the

11:26

jobs, which means when the robot

11:28

apocalypse comes, in addition to being

11:30

dead, will be unemployed. Meanwhile, two

11:32

of the three richest men in

11:34

the world are talking about settlements

11:37

in space. Is this a coincidence?

11:39

Or are the ultra-wealthy really packing

11:41

their bags for redder pastures? When

11:43

we talk about billionaires with space

11:45

settlement aspirations, we're really only talking

11:47

about two people. Jeff Basos and

11:50

Elon Musk. Let's start with Basos,

11:52

who whose vision

11:54

of space is

11:56

one first detailed

11:58

in the in the

12:00

in which enormous

12:03

habitats rotate to

12:05

simulate Earth's gravity. The

12:07

closest similar project thus far

12:09

is the International Space Station, which

12:12

at a cost of several

12:14

hundred billion dollars does not

12:16

rotate, has about the volume

12:18

of a suburban house suburban with

12:20

regular regular keeps alive a crew

12:22

of about a crew of about six. Producing

12:24

rotating space space that can house

12:26

orbital cities is a long way

12:28

off. way off. Bezos realizes this and does

12:30

not appear to expect that fleeing

12:32

a burning earth for space will

12:34

be an option in his lifetime.

12:37

lifetime. That leaves Mr. as is as

12:39

is often the case, as the

12:41

center of attention. He really does He really

12:43

does want to put a million person

12:45

city on Mars in the next 30

12:47

years and his rocket company SpaceX, building the

12:49

rocket to make it happen. it

12:51

happen. While he argues we need to

12:53

colonize Mars as something of a of

12:55

a plan B case of earthly catastrophe, he

12:58

doesn't appear to be arguing that

13:00

starting anew on Mars will be more

13:02

pleasant than remaining on a ravaged on

13:04

a ravaged Earth. Why? Likely because

13:06

Mars is Mars is the terrible, the

13:08

idea of to Earth is it to Earth

13:10

is bonkers, even by the standards

13:12

of a Silicon Valley marketing pitch.

13:15

human has human has gone farther from the

13:17

than the Moon, so our knowledge of the

13:19

physical effects of space is limited. However,

13:22

based on data gathered on

13:24

space stations orbiting Earth and from our

13:26

knowledge of conditions on Mars,

13:28

on likely problems for Martian

13:30

settlers include include of bones and

13:32

muscles, muscles, eye eye damage, cognitive

13:34

decline, exposure to toxic

13:36

dust, exposure to high radiation levels if

13:38

one wishes to put on a suit

13:40

suit and walk on the surface, occasional

13:43

planet -wide dust storms, and the

13:45

impossibility of live conversation with

13:47

loved ones on the home planet.

13:50

On On top of all that

13:52

good stuff, Martian settlers will live

13:54

in cramped habitats buried underground to

13:57

avoid space radiation, likely while

13:59

engaging in non- on Stop labor simply

14:01

to keep the lights on, air

14:03

clean, and food on the table.

14:05

How do we know? In the

14:07

largest ever attempt at keeping humans

14:09

alive in a sealed bubble, Biosphere

14:11

2 in the 1990s, eight people

14:13

worked eight to 10 hours a

14:15

day, five and a half days

14:17

a week, to keep the system

14:19

running. The biospherean's diet, high in

14:22

green bananas and beans, provided insufficient

14:24

calories, resulting in a 10 to

14:26

18% drop in body weight. And,

14:28

unlike Martian settlers, they got their

14:30

light from the Arizona sunshine and

14:32

their electricity from the grid. If

14:34

the first eight Martians are like

14:36

the crew of Biosphere 2, they

14:38

will also put in long hours

14:40

fighting with management and each other.

14:42

And while Musk has been spending

14:44

his money on gigantic rockets, basic

14:47

research on questions related to the

14:49

feasibility of human reproduction off-world are

14:51

minimally funded, either by agencies... or

14:53

rich guys. We don't even know

14:55

if rodents can have generations of

14:57

children under the physiological stresses just

14:59

described, let alone human beings. Without

15:01

the relevant science, a large-scale, near-term

15:03

Mars settlement is effectively experimentation on

15:05

its future inhabitants. Perhaps these horrors

15:07

could be justified if the human

15:09

species faced the imminent destruction of

15:11

Earth, but we don't. In all

15:14

likelihood, no billionaires will be escaping

15:16

a ruined Earth for the safety

15:18

of Mars. But, if you aren't

15:20

a fan of space billionaires, you

15:22

might hope that they'll try. While

15:24

they're adapting to the mole-like lifestyle

15:26

of a Mars habitat and wondering

15:28

if the next resupply ship will

15:30

come with a dentist, you will

15:32

be enjoying an earthly lifestyle that,

15:34

however frightening it might be right

15:36

this second, is still the best

15:39

bet in the solar system. Thank

15:41

you to Kelly Wiener Smith there.

15:43

And if you want to learn

15:45

more about the feasibility of escaping

15:47

Earth, check out Kelly and Zach

15:49

Wiener Smith's Royal Society prize-winning book,

15:51

A City on Mars. And have

15:53

a listen to last week.

15:55

episode of BBC

15:57

Radio Radio Earth, Earth

15:59

which is available

16:01

now on BBC on

16:03

BBC Sounds. You're listening to

16:06

listening to BBC Inside Science me

16:08

me, Victoria Global Talks that aimed to

16:10

aimed to reach an agreement to

16:12

cut plastic waste ended in failure

16:14

last week. that leave does that leave

16:16

us, and our increasingly insurmountable plastic

16:18

problem? Steve Steve Fletcher was in Busan,

16:20

South Korea for the ill -fated UN

16:22

talks last week, and he's back

16:24

in the UK now, and he

16:26

joins us. Steve, welcome to the programme.

16:28

Hi Victoria, welcome back. back. like

16:30

you like you made it

16:32

out of Busan just in

16:34

in time. They declared declared week.

16:36

law landed week. in London to find

16:39

landed back in London to find escaped in the

16:41

nick of the nick of time. okay, so you

16:43

didn't didn't get embroiled in that. That's

16:45

good. Well, good. Well, back. back. Now, why why

16:47

did these talks fail? What were

16:49

the sticking points? points? Well, it's it's

16:51

interesting you're using the word word fail

16:54

there. think the talks were talks were extended.

16:56

So the talks didn't really fail

16:58

or collapse. It is true that

17:00

there wasn't at these these talks. And

17:02

the original plan was that a

17:04

final text of a treaty would

17:07

be agreed by by this meeting in

17:09

But it really But it really came, to

17:11

it, when it came down to

17:13

it, there was just some fundamental

17:15

disagreements that more time was needed

17:17

to really focus on. disagreements really really

17:20

around. around... whether the treaty was

17:22

about managing waste, or whether

17:24

it was about preventing plastic

17:26

pollution at source. Can you

17:28

just give us Can overview of

17:30

what this treaty aims to do? treaty

17:32

the treaty is mandated

17:35

by the UN the UN

17:37

to help stop stop plastic

17:39

pollution in its entirety and

17:41

this is the first time

17:43

there has been a

17:45

legally binding agreement agreement. being developed

17:47

to tackle plastic pollution. So So

17:49

a really ambitious thing to course and

17:51

do. a lot of And of course,

17:53

there lot of countries in the

17:56

world that benefit greatly from plastic

17:58

production. those are the countries are are tending

18:00

to hold back a little bit

18:02

in the negotiations and to be

18:04

much more focused on end of

18:06

life management. So like recycling and

18:08

incineration and things like that, rather

18:10

than a group of countries are

18:12

a little bit more ambitious and

18:14

they're looking to place a cap

18:16

on plastic production and to really

18:18

reduce the pressure on. things like

18:20

recycling systems by reducing the plastic

18:22

entering the economy in the first

18:25

place. Right, so where does this

18:27

pause on those talks leave us

18:29

now? What's still to be figured

18:31

out in terms of getting this

18:33

treaty agreed upon? Yeah, so it's

18:35

really an interesting question. So in

18:37

the negotiations up until this point,

18:39

the country is pushing back against

18:41

a more ambitious agreement. I've really

18:43

had the upper hand. They've frustrated

18:45

the process and really slowed it

18:47

down. But what we saw at

18:49

the meeting in Busan really was

18:51

for the first time a group

18:53

of around 120 countries really pushing

18:55

back and saying no we want

18:57

a really strong treaty to tackle

18:59

plastic pollution with caps on production

19:01

of plastic, phasing out chemicals that

19:03

are concerning because of their toxicity

19:05

and focusing on uses of plastics

19:07

that are really essential. So what

19:09

we see in the interim period,

19:11

the period now between the last

19:13

negotiations and the next, is a

19:15

real opportunity to persuade those countries

19:18

that are holding back that there

19:20

is a different way, a better

19:22

way of tackling plastic pollution. I

19:24

would say Victoria, it's easy to

19:26

be skeptical about that though, and

19:28

just having another meeting doesn't necessarily

19:30

mean it's going to be any

19:32

easier to... get agreement. So we

19:34

really do need a concerted effort.

19:36

And then that does sound like

19:38

a really, that that's really two

19:40

points at odds. So a kind

19:42

of coalition of countries that want

19:44

to produce less plastic and a

19:46

coalition that wants to grow. that

19:48

market? That seems fundamentally odd. How

19:50

optimistic are you that we can

19:52

get to a global agreement? Gosh,

19:54

it's really hard to answer that

19:56

question, Victor, to be honest with

19:58

you. There's so many variables and

20:00

so many uncertainties about how the

20:02

negotiations will progress. I mean, I

20:04

tend to be a bit glass-half

20:06

full in most things, so I'm

20:09

reasonably optimistic. The mood in the

20:11

negotiation room on Sunday evening when

20:13

the countries were standing up one

20:15

after the other committing to an

20:17

ambitious treaty was really quite a

20:19

moving site and at one point

20:21

one of the delegates from the

20:23

Rwandan delegation asked anybody in the

20:25

room who supported ambition to stand

20:27

up and virtually everybody in the

20:29

room stood up and clapped and

20:31

cheered and that was a really

20:33

sort of emotional moment but it

20:35

was quite a turning point as

20:37

well in the negotiations because nothing

20:39

like that. I'd not seen anything

20:41

like that in any of the

20:43

previous meetings. And it just really

20:45

spoke to a change in mood.

20:47

The ambitions there that you can

20:49

see that in the room. So

20:51

what's the next step when will

20:53

this reconvene? Well, we don't know

20:55

at the moment. So the meeting

20:57

only finished on Sunday evening, three

20:59

or four days ago. So what

21:02

will happen next is the Secretariat

21:04

will go off and think about

21:06

when the next meeting will be

21:08

held and where it will be

21:10

held and what work needs to

21:12

be done in the interim to

21:14

line up for a strong ambitious

21:16

agreement. Well, will you keep us

21:18

posted, Steve? Thank you very much.

21:20

Steve Fletcher, Professor of Ocean Policy

21:22

from the University of Portsmouth. Now,

21:24

we are always keeping an eye

21:26

on the latest style trends here

21:28

on inside science. So when we

21:30

saw that a group of orchas

21:32

off the northwest Pacific coast had

21:34

been spotted wearing dead salmon on

21:36

their heads as hats, we wanted

21:38

to know more. So joining me

21:40

is killer whale officinado Darren Croft.

21:42

Hi, Darren. Hi, Vic. Lovely to

21:44

have you on. Can you give

21:46

us a kind of potted history

21:48

of this salmon hat trend, please?

21:50

Yeah, so this is a very...

21:53

very special population

21:55

of killer whales,

21:57

killer killer whales

21:59

that live in

22:01

the that live in the

22:03

coast of the

22:05

off Canada and

22:07

around and years ago.

22:09

35 years they were first seen

22:11

carrying salmon on their heads. So

22:13

the So whales are swimming around

22:15

with a salmon a of balanced

22:17

across their head, their really unusual

22:19

behavior. it And it of lasted for

22:21

a year or so and

22:23

then then. of dropped out of

22:25

the conversation if you like about

22:27

the whales. And And then recently autumn

22:29

it's it sort of resurfaced in in

22:31

with a photograph photograph of a salmon

22:33

and obviously generated this interest

22:35

around around are they doing this? doing

22:37

this? You described it there briefly because

22:39

this is because this is What does

22:41

a salmon hat look like? you seen

22:43

Have you seen one in real

22:45

life? imagine the you imagine the swimming along

22:47

at the surface and it's balancing a balancing a

22:50

salmon across its head. the salmon know,

22:52

the salmon is often out of the

22:54

water, the killer whales, out top water, and

22:56

the the water and the salmon is

22:58

kind of draped the top of it,

23:00

if you like. you like. these are salmon

23:02

eating whales, aren't they? aren't they? So is that the reason?

23:04

Are Are they saving a snack on their

23:07

head? Why are they doing doing this? a

23:09

number of possible reasons why it might be

23:11

play, why it be playing with their food playing

23:13

with their food, or they may possibly be be kind of

23:15

trying to keep the salmon away from other

23:17

whales whales from them. from be carrying it

23:19

on their head in a way to try

23:21

and keep it to themselves. keep it to themselves. And

23:23

that have something to do with

23:25

there not being enough food that

23:27

they would become kind of more

23:29

protective of the salmon they catch?

23:31

they catch? So I I think the

23:33

most likely explanation is is its play and

23:35

I I think the fact that

23:37

we haven't seen it very

23:39

often rather hasn't been reported very

23:42

often often and people watching and observing

23:44

the whales the reflects that actually

23:46

they're not finding enough food.

23:48

We know finding population of whales

23:50

is nutritionally stressed, so why has

23:52

this So why is this emerged thankfully this

23:54

population has just had a

23:56

really good autumn feeding on chump

23:58

salmon. and this been plenty of

24:00

salmon around for them to feed on.

24:03

So it's likely that they're well-fed and

24:05

actually it's time to play a little

24:07

bit with their food. And are they

24:10

playful animals? You know we see they

24:12

kind of take front and center role

24:14

in wildlife documentaries about the marine world

24:17

orchards don't they because they are so

24:19

cooperative and smart. We see a lot

24:21

of stories about them. How playful are

24:24

they? They're incredibly playful animals. So when

24:26

we're observing the whales in the wild,

24:28

we'll often see them pick up a

24:31

piece of kelp and play with a

24:33

piece of kelp. And actually, recently over

24:35

the last decade or so, they've actually

24:38

been playing with harbor porpoists, especially young

24:40

harbor porpoists. They won't eat the harbor

24:42

porpoists. They only eat fish, but they'll

24:45

play with it. Just like you'd watch

24:47

a cat playing with a mouse or

24:49

playing with a frog. They'll play with

24:52

the prey. their intelligence, their social behavior,

24:54

seeing this play, what does it tell

24:56

us about the animal's world? It's just

24:59

amazing to be able to watch these

25:01

whales and see their behavior in the

25:03

wild. And one of the things that

25:05

we do is we fly a drone

25:08

over the whales, so we can actually

25:10

see what's going on under the water.

25:12

And their social lives are incredibly complex,

25:15

they're incredibly tactile. they copy each other

25:17

so they have very strong cultural traditions

25:19

of copying each other's behaviour and they

25:22

just live a very rich and complex

25:24

social life and as you say they're

25:26

highly intelligent. Yeah I should say I

25:29

have a kind of predetermined interest in

25:31

this population of killer whales because you

25:33

and I actually made a documentary together

25:36

about them a radio forward documentary the

25:38

killer whale menopause because these are some

25:40

of the most studied... killer whales in

25:43

the world, aren't they? How long have

25:45

they been, how long have you been

25:47

studying these animals? I've only been studying

25:50

for a fraction of the time that

25:52

the long-term survey has been going, which

25:54

started in 1976 when I was about

25:57

six months old. So the population has

25:59

been studied scientifically. for approaching 50 years.

26:01

Every whale in the population of that

26:03

time period has been tracked. We know

26:06

all the births and all the deaths.

26:08

We've got more data on this population

26:10

of killer whales than any other population

26:13

in the world. And all of their

26:15

style choices too and all of their

26:17

play habits. But this population is... You

26:20

talked about the population being kind of

26:22

undernourished about the food stress. You know,

26:24

is that posing a threat to this

26:27

very special population of killer whales? A

26:29

huge threat. And actually, we're watching, unless

26:31

we do something, we're watching extinction in

26:34

slow motion. The population, this population specializes

26:36

on fish. And one species of fish

26:38

in particular, Shinuk salmon. that the populations

26:41

of Shinuk salmon themselves are threatened and

26:43

have crashed and declined. These whales really

26:45

are balancing on a knife edge and

26:48

at risk of extinction. There's only 73

26:50

animals left in the wild. And if

26:52

we don't do something now to help

26:55

protect them and protect the wider ocean,

26:57

we at risk of losing this incredibly

26:59

special population forever. And what needs to

27:01

be done? They need food. Ultimately it

27:04

comes down to food and it comes

27:06

down to fish and we need to

27:08

make sure that they can wear salmon

27:11

hats for salmon on their heads for

27:13

decades to come. They need more salmon.

27:15

Amen to that. Well thank you so

27:18

much Darren Craft Professor of Animal Behavior

27:20

at the University of Exeter and Director

27:22

of the Centre for Whale Research in

27:25

Washington State in the US. And that

27:27

is all we have time for this

27:29

week. You've been listening to BBC Inside

27:32

Science, which was presented by me, Victoria

27:34

Gil. The producers were Sophie Ormiston, Ella

27:36

Hubber and Jerry Holt. Technical production was

27:39

by Kath McGee, and the show was

27:41

made in Cardiff by BBC Wales and

27:43

West. To discover more fascinating science content,

27:46

head to BBC.co. UK, search for BBC

27:48

Inside Science, and follow the links to

27:50

the Open University. Next week, I'll be

27:53

finding... out of the

27:55

scientific secrets of living

27:57

alongside one of

27:59

the planet's biggest predators.

28:02

of Until then, thanks

28:04

for listening and

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buh predators. Until then, thanks

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