0:10

Hi everybody, welcome back to

0:12

the Be There Inside podcast. I'm

0:14

Kate Kennedy, your host. This week

0:16

we have two episodes, each spookier

0:19

than the next. One, the

0:21

regular episode, the spooky snorkel,

0:23

is dropping on Halloween. It's

0:25

about people's ghost stories. It's

0:28

about my fascination with why ghosts

0:30

aren't wearing more modern clothing, among

0:32

other very pressing topics, like in

0:35

the 90s doing light. witchcraft at

0:37

sleepovers and millennials, and I suggest

0:39

that this is the other spooky

0:42

snorkel, but if I'm honest, it's

0:44

genuinely about something I'm very scared

0:46

of, and I think a lot of

0:49

us are this week, and I know

0:51

that there's a time and a place

0:53

to compartmentalize and to escape, and this

0:55

is predominantly a pop culture podcast, a

0:58

millennials-like guys podcast, and I'm going to

1:00

provide an escape for you, but also...

1:02

I just could, I don't know, I was

1:04

having trouble standing idly by down to

1:06

the wire and just felt like I wanted

1:09

to put my, be there in five

1:11

cents, and if you will, about something

1:13

that actually is quite relevant to the

1:15

podcast that we talk about a

1:17

lot, which are misconceptions that people

1:19

have about millennials, about millennial

1:22

women. And today I just kind of

1:24

wanted to... address this idea that

1:26

a lot of women, and specifically

1:28

a lot of millennial women, are

1:31

focused on reproductive rights this election

1:33

cycle, and that it is a problem

1:35

because it is a single issue vote. I

1:37

think you almost have to take a step

1:40

back and really think about the position we've

1:42

been put in. So millennials

1:44

right now are around age 28 to 43.

1:46

I bring up how a lot of this

1:48

noise is targeted at women of childbearing age

1:51

because I think maybe... were the ones that

1:53

are most vocal about it. But I also

1:55

do think the addition of IVF into the

1:57

Repro writes, conversation this past year following the

2:00

ruling about an embryo being treated

2:02

as a living person, it's always

2:04

become all the more relevant to

2:06

specifically a millennial woman of trial

2:08

bearing age, given that we're dealing

2:10

with navigating all of this while

2:13

having a finite number of fertile

2:15

years for most of us left,

2:17

and IVF is a big part

2:19

of that conversation in what gives

2:21

us options, opportunities, and chances to

2:23

plan our future, just as having

2:25

the choice in your life at

2:27

any point. is giving you autonomy

2:29

over your body and the ability

2:31

to make decisions about your future.

2:33

Think what people forget is an

2:35

argument I often make on here.

2:38

I made it in my book.

2:40

We straddle two very different eras,

2:42

the traditional world we grew up

2:44

in and the modern world we

2:46

were greeted with, I think we're

2:48

very defined by financial and economic

2:50

instability, led by the greatest financial

2:52

recession since the Great Depression, and

2:54

its related implications on student debt,

2:56

on building, compounding wealth, on achieving,

2:58

There are endless reasons we've kind

3:00

of delayed our milestones. One. And

3:02

two, another thing that we uniquely

3:05

straddle is we also or a

3:07

generation that came of age and

3:09

entered adulthood, our 20s, our 30s,

3:11

where we were making key decisions,

3:13

believing that certain rights we held

3:15

were settled law. They were rights.

3:17

You know, on what planet in

3:19

a living, breathing, thriving democracy would

3:21

rights and freedoms get rolled back.

3:23

They're established, we maintain them, we

3:25

add to them, we enhance them,

3:27

and to come of age and

3:30

to be in our core decision-making

3:32

years for our futures with Roby

3:34

Wade established. It wasn't just a

3:36

Supreme Court decision. It was a

3:38

backdrop against which we planned our

3:40

lives, our careers, and it's overturning

3:42

in 2022 was seismic for countless

3:44

reasons, but at the heart of

3:46

it. were a generation that experienced

3:48

for the first time in modern,

3:50

keyboard modern, American history, that a

3:52

constitutional right was taken away from

3:55

half the population. When we reduce

3:57

reproductive freedom to a single issue,

3:59

we're really undermining the intricate and

4:01

intersectional impact it has on so

4:03

many different touch points of American

4:05

life, whether we're talking about educational

4:07

access and access to sex ed,

4:09

learning about and access to contraception,

4:11

giving people the ability to make

4:13

informed decisions about their health care,

4:15

whether we're talking about economic opportunity

4:17

from workplace discrimination to career advancement,

4:19

whether we're talking about... health care

4:22

and equality in the medical system

4:24

or racial justice in the alarmingly

4:26

stark disparities in maternal health outcomes.

4:28

This is about religious freedom. This

4:30

is about privacy protection. There's so

4:32

many things that fall under this

4:34

umbrella of a single issue. And

4:36

I think that I've been going

4:38

a little crazy hearing people reduce

4:40

our plight in this way. One,

4:42

because I guarantee you for any

4:44

of us, it is absolutely not

4:47

the only thing we care about.

4:49

There are many, many issues that

4:51

I and you. I'm sure care

4:53

a great deal about that we

4:55

put a lot of research and

4:57

thought into and that we take

4:59

into great consideration when voting. To

5:01

focus on one issue on this

5:03

podcast or in general in these

5:05

conversations is not to imply we

5:07

exclude all others and people love

5:09

to use that assumption to write

5:11

off your focus as insignificant because

5:14

it is not all encompassing. And

5:16

two, it's kind of being used

5:18

as this condescending means to insult

5:20

people and to shame people that

5:22

lead with related causes. In the

5:24

past couple weeks, especially, the rhetorical

5:26

shifts that write off single-issue voters

5:28

as of late seems more like,

5:30

honestly, this went a tactic to

5:32

conceal. It's a huge deal. Not

5:34

a realistic point of feedback that

5:36

it's not as significant as we

5:39

think. Last weekend, I just felt

5:41

like I was going crazy following

5:43

women, you know, sharing their stories

5:45

aloud at a Texas rally and

5:47

seeing people on social media and

5:49

headlines and in my dams, calling

5:51

it propaganda propaganda. women sharing their

5:53

stories of trauma and near-death experiences

5:55

of loved ones they know who

5:57

have actually died due to these

5:59

restrictions to suggest that these personal

6:01

narratives are falsehoods in terms of

6:03

how abortion restrictions affect everyday women.

6:06

It's disgusting, it's offensive, and it's

6:08

categorically incorrect. And to me, it's

6:10

almost so obviously low and inhumane

6:12

to deny or dismiss somebody's personal

6:14

story of trauma or tragedy within

6:16

the topic of pregnancy or the

6:18

childbirths that like the only option

6:20

you have is to discredit it,

6:22

call a propaganda. or just attempt

6:24

to shame a person for being

6:26

influenced by it, aka minimizing a

6:28

cause to being a single issue

6:31

voter, talking about how single issue

6:33

voters are a huge problem with

6:35

this election, and ideally attempt to

6:37

shame a person into losing energy

6:39

to vote by feeling embarrassed that

6:41

they are predominantly caring about an

6:43

alleged singular issue. And that's part

6:45

of what we're going to get

6:47

into today. I crowdsourced real stories

6:49

from real listeners of this podcast.

6:51

about the vast spectrum of reproductive

6:53

care and the many circumstances that

6:55

lie within it from wanting to

6:58

be pregnant, from not wanting to

7:00

be pregnant, from trying to conceive

7:02

and needing fertility assistance, to terminating

7:04

for medical reasons, to being traumatized

7:06

and tortured, having to cross state

7:08

lines to get the necessary care

7:10

you need, not because it's in

7:12

your best interest, but because of

7:14

medical provider, has to prioritize their

7:16

liability, to how the IVF not

7:18

being involved in the conversation affects

7:20

cancer patients. affects LGBTQ individuals, affects

7:23

people like me who thought that

7:25

I did egg retrievals under the

7:27

premise that I was exercising a

7:29

part of my reproductive freedom, and

7:31

I could have a semblance of

7:33

control over my future for a

7:35

process I underwent. Now people like

7:37

me are having to ask ourselves

7:39

the way this election and the

7:41

way the states respond to IVF-related

7:43

laws, we could be looking at

7:45

criminal liability for not using frozen

7:48

embryos. When that wasn't even a

7:50

conversation, anybody was having as recent

7:52

as So I'm going to get

7:54

into those stories. I want to

7:56

talk a little bit more about

7:58

the IVFPs because it's new word.

8:00

this broader conversation of reproductive freedom, I

8:02

think that both sides claim to support it and

8:04

it's really confusing. I think two of the most

8:07

powerful things we can be talking about

8:09

at this point are scientific fact over our

8:11

confusing assumptions and distilling of rhetoric we're hearing

8:13

from both sides who allegedly like support IVF,

8:16

for example, since that's a newer piece of

8:18

the conversation that I do think deserves some

8:20

clarity. We talk about on this podcast my

8:22

concern with the like erosion of the expert.

8:25

And this is why I largely don't

8:27

participate in political dialogue, because I don't

8:29

want to pose as an expert on

8:31

things that I'm not. I try to

8:33

stick to areas where I have a

8:35

semblance of expertise or personal experience,

8:38

and this happens to be one, as

8:40

a person who had an emergency medical

8:42

abortion of an ectopic pregnancy in a

8:44

traumatic ER visit that I wouldn't wish

8:47

upon my worst enemy, as a person

8:49

who underwent the first half of IVF2

8:51

egg retrievils following as a means to...

8:53

closely monitor the situation, being prone to

8:55

act topics, protect myself, be able to

8:57

still tour and travel and promote the book,

9:00

without fear of trying to conceive and getting

9:02

pregnant and being in the wrong state and

9:04

the wrong place and having my life put

9:06

on the line, in addition to unknown fertility

9:08

issues, and I'm now a very proud mother

9:10

that if anything becoming a mom has radicalized

9:12

me to go even harder for pro-choice causes,

9:14

because it's a common misconception that

9:16

being in favor of abortion rights

9:18

and wanting children or having children

9:21

are at odds. but actually they completely aligned

9:23

because they're both about supporting reproductive

9:25

freedom and choice because when we

9:28

talk about reproductive freedom we're talking

9:30

about the broad spectrum of reproductive

9:32

health care and that includes every step of

9:34

the way and when somebody supports abortion

9:37

rights they're supporting the broader

9:39

principle that all of us each

9:41

and every person should have control over their

9:43

own reproductive decisions and timing supporting

9:45

abortion access isn't about being against

9:47

having children it's about believing that becoming a

9:50

parent should be a choice you make intentionally,

9:52

it should be a choice you make freely.

9:54

It's a really big deal. And having gone

9:56

through a pretty intense postpartum situation, I

9:58

won't get into it. but I had

10:00

postpartum preeclampsia with a pulmonary edema, among

10:03

other things, basically stopped breathing and

10:05

had to go to the ER and

10:07

stay in the hospital longer. And

10:09

it was scary, it was serious. And

10:11

if I hadn't realized it then

10:13

more than ever, pregnancy isn't just some

10:15

sweet process where you have baby

10:17

showers and automatically get to deliver a

10:19

healthy baby to term. For many

10:21

women, it is anxiety producing, it is

10:23

painful, it is punishing. And just

10:25

as it can be perfect for people,

10:27

for some people, myself included, it's

10:30

the thing I want to know, but

10:32

it also turned out to be

10:34

a major medical event that could have

10:36

killed me if I were in

10:38

different circumstances. This is why so many

10:40

fertility doctors and reproductive healthcare professionals

10:42

are strong advocates for both abortion access

10:44

and fertility treatments, because they understand

10:46

the fundamental interconnected nature of these two

10:48

issues. And really the crux of

10:50

it is fetal personhood, which we'll get

10:52

into. And the point I was

10:54

bringing up is, I speak from my

10:57

own experience, sure, and there's bias

10:59

and you don't have to listen to

11:01

me and you can write off

11:03

my experiences as singular and unfairly projected

11:05

onto others, whatever, I don't care.

11:07

But I really do care about bringing

11:09

in experts when there are things

11:11

that we don't feel as clear on.

11:13

And I do think IVF is

11:15

one of these murky areas. So I

11:17

have a snippets of an interview

11:19

I did with the chief medical officer

11:22

from KineBody, who is a board -certified

11:24

MD, who is every productive endocrinologist,

11:26

among other very accomplished credentials, who is

11:28

an expert in their field who

11:30

can scientifically tell us in the medical

11:32

field when they believe life starts,

11:34

the ways that government intervention in IVF

11:36

could serve to be a huge,

11:38

huge problem in access to affordability of

11:40

and quality of care regarding IVF.

11:42

And KineBody, they are not political, they're

11:44

advocates within their field. They don't

11:46

necessarily share my views. And she provides

11:49

a very neutral scientific stance. So

11:51

I just wanna make that clear that

11:53

I'm not dragging them into my

11:55

mess, but I appreciate them being willing

11:57

to speak to me to be

11:59

able to provide you accurate information about

12:01

how abortion restrictions might be. impacting IVF as

12:03

well. And I'm going to put up that full interview on YouTube with

12:05

the Doctor on Kind body if you want to hear it in full.

12:07

But there were so many different issues I

12:09

wanted to address on the podcast.

12:11

That's a piece of it that will incorporate

12:14

here today, but maybe not all. But I

12:16

guess I wanted to start by just kind

12:18

of healing this back a bit, like lifting

12:20

the hood, of womanhood, if you will. Like

12:22

the reality of reproductive freedom

12:24

is that it is not a single

12:26

issue. It affects every aspect of human

12:29

life. bodily autonomy, racial justice, health

12:31

care access, fundamental human rights,

12:33

it affects family planning, career

12:35

decisions, educational choices, economic stability.

12:37

These issues are inextricably linked in ways

12:39

that I'm not deep diving in entirety

12:42

in this podcast, but are worth noting.

12:44

And even the class implications, look at

12:46

when states impose waiting periods, multiple appointments.

12:49

These things on the service might look

12:51

like inconveniences or giving a person an

12:53

opportunity to further think their decision through,

12:56

but they're also creating... pretty challenging

12:58

barriers for people who can't take time

13:00

off work for people that don't have

13:02

transportation, that don't have child care. These

13:04

restrictions absolutely don't affect everybody equally and

13:07

it operates in creating a two-tiered system

13:09

for health care access based on your

13:11

economic status. And not all people that

13:14

need reproductive health care identify as women

13:16

and not all women need the same

13:18

reproductive care. And yeah, from preventing pregnancy

13:20

to conceiving a pregnancy to ending

13:22

a pregnancy whether... induced or a

13:24

product of an incomplete miscarriage or

13:26

termination for medical reasons to IVF

13:29

assistance with getting pregnant and beyond,

13:31

there could not be more at

13:33

stake. So yeah, I guess I just wanted

13:35

to start by saying when people suggest

13:37

I should be focusing on, you know, first

13:39

and foremost, the future of our democracy,

13:41

I assure them I am, because I think this single

13:43

issue, if you will, I'm using quotes, so you

13:46

can't see me. It's kind of the perfect

13:48

barometer for the strength of a democracy, because

13:50

to me it should be measured should be

13:52

measured by how well. It protects the

13:54

rights and freedoms of its citizens.

13:56

It doesn't create different levels of

13:58

rights and tears. based on geography, economic

14:01

status, or otherwise, it doesn't meddle in

14:03

personal, private, medical information and interfere with

14:05

a person's ability to build their families

14:07

and build their own future on their

14:09

own terms. I think we're fundamentally undermining

14:11

democratic principles of equality and justice if

14:13

we suggest that reproductive freedom isn't absolutely

14:16

essential to the vitality of our democracy.

14:18

So yeah, I don't think we've productive

14:20

freedom is a single issue. It's not

14:22

one medical procedure. It's a matter of

14:24

equality. And it's about who gets to

14:26

participate fully in our democracy. And I

14:28

might not be a woman in STEM,

14:31

but I don't know. My back of

14:33

the napkin calculations tell me that's not

14:35

one issue. That's a matter of literally

14:37

half the population's human rights. So if

14:39

you want to minimize caring about these

14:41

things, to not being a big deal,

14:43

to being insignificant, to being frivolous, go

14:45

for it. You're bad at math. That

14:48

whole preamble leading up to that point,

14:50

you would have thought I had a

14:52

sick or had a sicker or burn,

14:54

but no sicker burn, but no. call

14:56

people names and insult candidates and go

14:58

for the low-hanging fruit. That's the lazier

15:00

thing I do all the time. But

15:02

in the spirit of what I wrote

15:05

about and on in the millennial, honestly,

15:07

the oldest trick in the book is

15:09

making women's interests seem frivolous, as if

15:11

caring about half the populations, you know,

15:13

basic rights or something insignificant, or like

15:15

a function of an uneducated single voter.

15:17

And if the oldest trick in the

15:20

book to make women think caring about

15:22

their own well-being is selfish, that we

15:24

shouldn't be doing that we should... be

15:26

thinking about everybody else, we should be

15:28

sacrificial, we should be the martyrs. And

15:30

I personally believe that we can care

15:32

about things that personally affect us in

15:34

addition to what affects the broader public

15:37

and people less fortunate than us. It's

15:39

absolutely fair to protect ourselves in the

15:41

process, less fortunate than us. It's absolutely

15:43

fair to protect ourselves in the process

15:45

of advocating for others. And I don't

15:47

know. Don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

15:49

None of the stuff I just said

15:51

usually works, like the pontificating about the

15:54

same stuff over and the same stuff.

15:56

Because I could tell you if you

15:58

think that this is an issue that

16:00

doesn't or won't affect somebody, you know

16:02

that's approximately one in four women are...

16:04

expected to have an abortion by age

16:06

45 based on 2020 abortion data, which

16:08

is pre-RO data, which as we know

16:11

has gone up since the overturning of

16:13

Roe v. Wade. But that includes a

16:15

broad spectrum of circumstances that you likely

16:17

weren't even comprised the issue of abortion

16:19

because it's so much easier to malign

16:21

it as a worst possible scenario with

16:23

intent to harm when the reality is

16:26

it includes people like me that's had

16:28

to choose between dying and having a

16:30

medical abortion. It includes people that have

16:32

incomplete miscarriages and need fetal matter removed

16:34

from their bodies so they don't risk

16:36

further pain, trauma, sepsis, infection, or worse

16:38

death, medications and procedures that are used

16:40

to manage and intervene medically with miscarriage

16:43

management are the exact same as what

16:45

is used for induced abortions. I think

16:47

that people deserve to know the importance

16:49

of factoring and nuance. because if you

16:51

think you'll never have an abortion that's

16:53

fine, but you might be a person

16:55

like me that never thinks you'll have

16:57

one, but they had to choose between

17:00

my two rupturing, hemorrhaging and dying, or

17:02

medically aborting my desperately wanted child. And

17:04

this applies to people with miscarriage management,

17:06

incomplete miscarriages. In many cases, medical intervention

17:08

is need to remove fetal matter. from

17:10

your uterus in order to preserve future

17:12

fertility. It often needs to be removed

17:14

quickly. And you'll hear examples of how

17:17

these restrictions, like in Texas, for example,

17:19

of only being able to administer one

17:21

medication when we know for a fact

17:23

that two... In conjunction work better, but

17:25

these kind of religious-based policies infiltrating medical

17:27

systems are limiting care options for people

17:29

that aren't even practicing their religion and

17:32

don't even believe what other people believe.

17:34

I could tell you that 55% of

17:36

people that obtained an abortion already have

17:38

had one child, our parents. I could

17:40

tell you that according to data from

17:42

the CDC, in 2021, 45% of abortions

17:44

were obtained at six weeks justation or

17:46

earlier. 49% at 7 to 13 weeks

17:49

gestation and 7% at 14 weeks gestation

17:51

or later in addition to women that

17:53

are disadvantaged in ways that limit access

17:55

to services women who receive diagnoses of

17:57

fetal anomalies, maternal health complications, who have

17:59

miscareages, incomplete miscareages are disproportionately impacted because

18:01

some of these diagnoses are received during

18:03

the second trimester and would require a

18:06

second trimester abortion procedure. And providers have

18:08

to go out of their way and

18:10

push people as close to death as

18:12

possible to justify intervening when that wasn't

18:14

the case before. You might be thinking,

18:16

Kate, maybe you're like the only one

18:18

that cares a time about this, but

18:20

I don't think I'm the single person

18:23

in this single issue. This actually one

18:25

of the reasons I reached out to

18:27

Kindbody was because they recently in partnership

18:29

with the Sims in-house research arm Conducted

18:31

a study for their 2024 state of

18:33

women in fertility health care survey to

18:35

uncover the key priorities emotions and concerns

18:38

of women leading up to the 2024

18:40

presidential election With the aim to amplify

18:42

women's voices with tangible data and stories

18:44

to present to employers and industry leaders

18:46

and the community with like how top

18:48

of mind and important this is in

18:50

ways that bolster the issue and don't

18:52

minimize it. And 92% of those surveyed

18:55

considered a reproductive health care priority, 75%

18:57

shared a candidate's stance that would influence

18:59

their vote. 65% are very concerned that

19:01

reproductive health care services might become restricted.

19:03

41% would consider switching jobs to a

19:05

company that provides benefits or travel benefits

19:07

for fertility health care. 51% would consider

19:09

crossing party lines for a candidate that

19:12

will protect access to care. 50% would

19:14

travel to other states for reproductive services

19:16

in 24% will consider moving to another

19:18

state with better fertility health care access.

19:20

Just to name a few stats on

19:22

even like the fertility and IVF side

19:24

of this. And the bottom line is

19:26

reproductive health care is a key election

19:29

issue and it will influence how women

19:31

vote and it doesn't really matter what

19:33

people think of that, what people think

19:35

of that honestly, but I guess I

19:37

just wanted to give you my thoughts

19:39

on it, maybe some talking points. I

19:41

don't know. Ignore this whole introduction if

19:44

you want to. Because the most important

19:46

piece here is getting some facts about

19:48

one issue that I think is a

19:50

bit murky, like IVF, and of hearing

19:52

stories of real women who have faced

19:54

real consequences from the Alabama legislation in

19:56

February. with embryos and fetal personhood, even

19:58

though that was kind of reversed in

20:01

state soon after, that the period of

20:03

time in between the Alabama ruling and

20:05

when there was legislation to protect IVF

20:07

providers was a microcosm for what this

20:09

could look like on a larger scale

20:11

if there is not a broader federal

20:13

IVF protection that, by the way, was

20:15

blocked twice this year by Senate Republicans

20:18

being left to the states. This could

20:20

be very dire, look very different, and

20:22

people just trying to build their families.

20:24

Providers could be facing criminal prosecution on

20:26

the basis of policies written by uninformed

20:28

individuals who are trying to implement laws

20:30

from a religious spiritual or philosophical standpoint,

20:33

quite literally in a country with freedom

20:35

of religion, where you could be criminally

20:37

prosecuted for not believing in something that

20:39

you quite literally don't practice. And these

20:41

decisions should be between medical providers and

20:43

their patients. These decisions should be not

20:45

based on doctrine, not based on dogma.

20:47

This conversation to me is like so

20:50

obvious. It feels like stupid to even

20:52

relate to you because I know you

20:54

know all this, but it's like, this

20:56

is why it was put in place

20:58

in the 70s. So first I want

21:00

to get to some of the conversation

21:02

I had with Dr. Geelani, the chief

21:04

medical officer of Kimebadi and a board

21:07

certified reproductive endocrinologist who will share her

21:09

perspective as a provider in terms of

21:11

what's at stake in the state's allegedly.

21:13

support, and even though she can't really

21:15

speak to it from a political angle,

21:17

I'll happily add my color frontier at

21:19

the end. Then close to the hour

21:21

mark, share some stories that were submitted

21:24

to me about, like I said, this

21:26

comprehensive spectrum of reproductive care, and I

21:28

tried to read ones that represented different

21:30

points of this process and different experiences.

21:32

the best I could with what people

21:34

had written in, even though I couldn't

21:36

get to everybody's and I'm so grateful

21:39

for people being so generous with their

21:41

stories. Your stories deserve to be heard

21:43

and how dare your traumas and tragedy

21:45

be written off as propaganda. It's honestly

21:47

sick. And our lives aren't in game

21:49

and our futures and our families aren't

21:51

an incidental talking point to be. use

21:53

for a politician's personal gain. If you're

21:56

looking for a resource for your conversations

21:58

in the upcoming days, if you're seeking

22:00

to understand the broader scope of how

22:02

these restrictions impact people, if you're concerned

22:04

about your future family playing an IVF,

22:06

I just was hoping to go beyond

22:08

my thoughts and share an expert. and

22:10

then share very real stories from podcast

22:13

listeners about how this single issue affects

22:15

people's lives in exponential ways. And I

22:17

don't know if my rambling is making

22:19

sense, but I don't have time to

22:21

be more organized in my thought process.

22:23

But oh no, I have a notification

22:25

on my fake fireplace that it's out.

22:27

Don't put out my fire. We're just

22:30

getting started. But yes, today I'm fired

22:32

up and doubling down on a single

22:34

issue, if you will. So yeah. This

22:36

one's for... All of you out there,

22:38

all the single-issue relations, if you all,

22:40

I hated that, I feel like. I

22:42

don't have enough time to come up

22:45

with something better. But yes, all you

22:47

single-issue ladies putting your hands up, to

22:49

make you a slightly regrettable cheesy reference,

22:51

but we'll go with it because time

22:53

is not on my side, and to

22:55

be fair, my internal soundtrack is no

22:57

more sophisticated or dynamic than a 2014

22:59

DJ set at the barn wedding. And

23:02

I apologize at points I do get

23:04

a little upset. I do get a

23:06

little upset. points I tried to re-record

23:08

four times and like it just it's

23:10

so emotional for me but I figured

23:12

there's no point in even hiding that

23:14

because that's just how serious and dire

23:16

I think these circumstances are and anyway

23:19

you guys thank you for listening please

23:21

don't email me any baby killing bullshit

23:23

I won't open it I'll delete it

23:25

properly and you simply cannot affect me

23:27

anymore thank you in advance for doing

23:29

your civic duty and going out and

23:31

voting early or on Tuesday it is

23:33

absolutely essential that we all participate that

23:36

we all participate and you at least

23:38

as a person that represents a lot

23:40

of women affected by this and wanted

23:42

to use this platform, stating my piece

23:44

for why millennial voters, particularly women, are

23:46

approaching the 2024 polls with unprecedented engagement.

23:48

And we're not just voting on one

23:51

issue, we're voting on a highly interconnected

23:53

system of rights and freedoms that affect

23:55

every aspect of our lives and don't

23:57

let anybody tell you otherwise. In

24:03

the introduction all, I went over

24:06

that Kindbody did a survey

24:08

with the scams in-house research

24:10

and a survey showed that

24:12

92% of respondents consider reproductive

24:14

health care a top concern.

24:16

So how do you define comprehensive

24:18

reproductive health care? If you ask

24:21

me that question 10 years ago,

24:23

I would define comprehensive reproductive health

24:25

care as just the act of

24:27

trying to get pregnant. But I

24:29

think as we're evolving, not just,

24:31

it's just not the act of

24:34

getting pregnant, but it's your end-to-end

24:36

journey. You're from puberty all the

24:38

way to menopause, post-menopause, that's your...

24:40

reproductive health, right? How do you

24:42

hit puberty? How do your hormones

24:44

interplay? How does you impact your

24:47

mental health? How does that impact your

24:49

physical health? What happens after you get

24:51

birth? What is postpartum depression? How do

24:53

you navigate your hormones as you're going

24:55

through the menopausal change? I think truly,

24:57

that's top of mind for everyone around

24:59

us. Like, how do I best take

25:02

care of myself and how do I

25:04

best take care of my body? I

25:06

think an important thing to consider

25:08

that broad spectrum because you know, you

25:10

find when you start to cherry

25:13

pick different parts of it to

25:15

support or to, you know, validate

25:17

or, invalidate or whatever, it's, it's

25:19

all interconnected and the reality is,

25:21

none of us really know our fate,

25:23

the entire time we're alive as

25:25

we navigate through all of those bodily

25:28

and hormonal changes and our choices

25:30

and chances as it relates to having

25:32

children. So yeah, I appreciate providers that

25:34

really think about the full scope

25:36

of that. And as it relates to

25:39

the climate we're in now, given

25:41

that reproductive rights could be a decisive

25:43

election issue, what do you think voters

25:45

need to understand about IVF's role

25:47

in the broader conversation about reproductive health

25:50

care? I think voters need to understand

25:52

that it's not just a reactive, like

25:54

you go to IVF because, you know,

25:56

that's your unresolved, you're, there's so

25:58

many people that need IV. There is,

26:00

you need IDF because you're a

26:02

single parent by choice. You need

26:04

IDF because you're a same-sex couple.

26:06

You need IDF because you have

26:09

cancer. You need IDF because you're

26:11

predisposed to a genetic condition that

26:13

it just doesn't silo an impact

26:15

that this little small division, that

26:17

it is a big thing. It

26:19

does impact everyone. And there was

26:21

actually a not part of our

26:23

study, but there was a study

26:25

that showed that you will know

26:27

one in three people that have

26:30

been impacted by fertility and have

26:32

gone through fertility treatment, whether it's

26:34

IBA for some sort of intervention,

26:36

to help build their family of

26:38

choice. And I mean, to say

26:40

one in three, that's insane. Like

26:42

that number started one in 10,

26:44

one in eight, one in six,

26:46

but to know one in three,

26:48

right? Like it's a huge deal.

26:50

So to know that it's impacting

26:53

people that are near and dear

26:55

to you. Yeah, that's staggering. I

26:57

didn't know that. Yeah, between, you

26:59

know, one in three, the statistic

27:01

you just gave or I think

27:03

a COGS stat, like one in

27:05

four pregnancies results in miscarriage and,

27:07

you know, when you think about

27:09

reproductive rights and freedoms, it's just,

27:11

you can pretend all you want,

27:13

you don't know anybody affected by

27:16

these things or that you'll never

27:18

be that person, but the reality

27:20

is statistically, it's probably closer to

27:22

you than you even realize. And

27:24

unfortunately a lot of these things

27:26

aren't spoken about or they're said

27:28

in whispers or and as a

27:30

person that's done I BF like

27:32

there's kind of awareness too about

27:34

defending yourself and feeling ashamed and

27:37

people saying things like why not

27:39

just adopt and I people acting

27:41

like it's selfish and the way

27:43

I always describe it to people

27:45

is like well if my respiratory

27:47

system wasn't working if my nervous

27:49

system if any other system of

27:51

the body isn't working what do

27:53

you do like you go get

27:55

it treated you get it fixed

27:57

and I just don't understand why

28:00

a reproductive system doesn't register with

28:02

people as necessary health care. Yeah.

28:04

Unfortunately, I think up until recently,

28:06

it's been depicted as elective. Like,

28:08

it's always considered an elective procedure,

28:10

an elective treatment, and that's why

28:12

you see... like six years ago,

28:14

seven years ago, a lot of

28:16

insurance providers didn't cover it. And

28:18

that's where this whole access to

28:21

care, that mission for us came

28:23

in for kind body, that it

28:25

is not elective, right? It is

28:27

not, it shouldn't be your last

28:29

resort also, like we believe in

28:31

proactive management of your body and

28:33

your reproductive health. But it's not

28:35

elective. I did not pick to

28:37

have IVF. Right. Like I didn't

28:39

say, hey, pick me, choose me.

28:41

But it's treatment. Just like you

28:44

said, if I were sick, I

28:46

would get treatment. And if something,

28:48

a part of my innate part

28:50

of my body is not functioning,

28:52

then I'm seeking help to rectify

28:54

it or treat it. Right. And

28:56

from what I understand, I mean,

28:58

there's historically not been a ton

29:00

of robust research. with infertility and

29:02

there's still a lot of unknowns

29:04

with infertility and it's just not

29:07

I just really never want people

29:09

to feel ashamed about it or

29:11

like it's something that's their fault

29:13

or they're you know it's it

29:15

seals their fate or something because

29:17

it's that's not the case you

29:19

in any other medical circumstance you

29:21

would not accept. something that operating

29:23

optimally is sealing your fate. So,

29:25

pivoting to the Alabama Supreme Court

29:28

decision earlier this year, which legally

29:30

classified embryos as persons from the

29:32

moment of fertilization, first of all,

29:34

what was your reaction as your

29:36

reproductive endocrinologist and OB, your chief

29:38

medical officer of kind body? I

29:40

mean, what was your reaction when...

29:42

that happened. I'm going to be

29:44

very honest and I'm going to

29:46

speak to you as a patient

29:48

because I've done a whole lot

29:51

of IVF to build my family

29:53

and you can tell just in

29:55

that sentence that if you say

29:57

life begins at fertilization it's just

29:59

ridiculous because if they actually sat

30:01

in the lab and saw how

30:03

many eggs it took to have

30:05

my son, 80 plus. It's just

30:07

ridiculous, like 80 plus of those

30:09

embryos, didn't work, didn't pan out

30:11

in culture, didn't grow to the

30:14

stage it needed to be, did

30:16

an implant, didn't yield the life

30:18

burden to say something so absurd

30:20

to me, basically shows me that

30:22

you don't comprehend what you're saying.

30:24

Right, to, you don't understand the

30:26

extent and the attrition that our

30:28

body is really good at survival

30:30

of the fittest and showing us

30:32

and what IVF is only doing

30:35

is amplifying that. So instead of

30:37

one egg obulating, we're super obulating

30:39

to figure out that one. So

30:41

not all expertilize will grow, not

30:43

all embryos that grow will be

30:45

normal, not everything that's normal will

30:47

invent. So they just didn't understand

30:49

that process to make such a.

30:51

big, staggering decision. And what it

30:53

did was it was fear-mongering. Would

30:55

it, then, you know, if you

30:58

don't know enough about it, then

31:00

you start to question yourself. Like,

31:02

does it begin at conception? Did

31:04

that really happen? And that, you

31:06

know, that fear lists, like, do

31:08

I do I do I, I

31:10

do I, do I move states?

31:12

And that's the last thing we

31:14

want, because, like you said, it

31:16

is a very young field. We're

31:18

so learning. And the last thing

31:21

we want, From a scientific slash

31:23

medical perspective, what is your definition

31:25

of like fetal personhood? When scientifically

31:27

do you consider and do medical

31:29

professionals consider life starting? So most

31:31

medical professions say 24 weeks of

31:33

conception. That's around your six months

31:35

because at that point, based on

31:37

weight size and how far you've

31:39

progressed. that baby is able to

31:42

live outside of your body still

31:44

with a lot of intervention but

31:46

at that point you can say

31:48

okay they're surfactant that the lungs

31:50

are going to be able to

31:52

move that they can function they

31:54

have a lot of the reflexes

31:56

that are needed but prior to

31:58

24 weeks life is impossible without

32:00

the support of mother's functioning organs.

32:02

That's interesting yeah there seems to

32:05

be a neglect of the tools

32:07

the vessel the other part of

32:09

what an embryo needs to thrive

32:11

and It's becomes a really challenging

32:13

conversation because for so many people

32:15

it's spiritual It's philosophical, but the

32:17

process itself isn't that. No. And

32:19

like setting all the wedges, philosophical

32:21

beliefs aside, practicality is I would

32:23

love, right? Like I probably had

32:26

about everyone, like I just miscarried

32:28

eight weeks, miscarried eight weeks, even

32:30

as a. medical provider, I would

32:32

love to say, let me incubate

32:34

this baby for you and grow

32:36

it outside and give him back.

32:38

Right. Right. Like I would have

32:40

loved hearing your body's attacking the

32:42

pregnancy and you're miscaring because of

32:44

this clotting issue is hard because

32:46

that means without the support of

32:49

the vessel and my body, this

32:51

little embryos unable to sustain life.

32:53

And I think if you just

32:55

break it down and take out

32:57

all views, then you say, okay,

32:59

what at what point can this

33:01

fetus sustain life? And that's beyond

33:03

24 weeks. So how do legal

33:05

definitions of personhood for embryos affect

33:07

or stand to affect standard IVF

33:09

protocols and practices? So they threaten

33:12

the preservation of embryos, right? Even

33:14

if it's frozen at an embryo

33:16

stage, a lot of times 80%

33:18

of our patients do what's called

33:20

PGT, pre-implantation genetic testing. And it

33:22

could be genetic testing for chromosomes,

33:24

it could be genetic testing for

33:26

diseases, it could be genetic testing

33:28

for genes that you're worried about

33:30

passing onto your children. The cry

33:33

of preservation and them frozen at

33:35

that state, even if they're deemed

33:37

or labeled abnormal, due to a

33:39

variety of reasons, then they panic

33:41

because if you say, well... this

33:43

embryo now is you know has

33:45

all rights of personhood then you're

33:47

worried about what does that mean

33:49

for me like what do I

33:51

do with them how do I

33:53

carry them on that somebody raised

33:56

child support then someone else raised

33:58

Social Security I mean it's like

34:00

the wild wild west out there

34:02

right like the minute you deem

34:04

these cells, I call them cells

34:06

because they are truly a cell.

34:08

What happens if you label them

34:10

as a person? Right. And you

34:12

know, it's speaking from somebody who

34:14

has frozen embryos, they represent chances

34:16

and they represent hope, but they're

34:19

not my children. And nobody understands

34:21

more than a person going through

34:23

fertility treatments that an embryo is

34:25

not a living breathing child. Because

34:27

if it was, how relieved would

34:29

we all be? what a gift

34:31

that would be. But a lot

34:33

of people undergo failed transfers. I

34:35

believe the statistic is two embryos

34:37

equals one live birth, at least

34:40

the last I checked in terms

34:42

of the statistical likelihood of a

34:44

transfer resulting in a live birth.

34:46

And speaking personally, I just find

34:48

it profoundly offensive to even suggest

34:50

that to people that want them

34:52

to be children the most. Yeah.

34:54

Yeah, no, I couldn't agree with

34:56

you more. So it's three tested

34:58

normals for a 95%. Okay, three

35:00

tested normals for a 95% chance

35:03

of a life. Okay. Two gets

35:05

you to 80. Okay. Now imagine

35:07

if they're untested, right? In your

35:09

40, I'm 41. That's like six

35:11

to seven. embryo transfers to get

35:13

to baby. And imagine if each

35:15

one was labeled a child, and

35:17

just like you said, I would

35:19

have loved that. If what someone

35:21

said, hey, this process is so

35:23

fine-tuned that the minute you fertilize

35:26

it, it's going to become a

35:28

baby, one can only hope that

35:30

the science will advance to there.

35:32

But we're definitely not there. And

35:34

it's crazy to call a cell

35:36

person when we know the fate

35:38

of that cell likely will not

35:40

result in a life birth. So

35:42

as a provider. were you and

35:44

your peers your community like as

35:47

after row was overturned as we

35:49

were you know shockingly regressing in

35:51

our rights and our freedoms is

35:53

this something that was top of

35:55

mind that real could happen? Did

35:57

it come by surprise? I mean,

35:59

it's kind of when it was

36:01

happening, I was like, oh, wait,

36:03

this makes unfortunately too much sense

36:05

that people weren't thinking through how

36:07

writing these laws and, you know,

36:10

in anti- choice legislation would ultimately

36:12

impact IVF because of how it

36:14

perceives the start of life, but

36:16

it's like now people are saying

36:18

they support IVF who also support

36:20

feudal personhood laws, and it gets

36:22

really confusing because I'm like, does

36:24

it just come down to a

36:26

fundamental lack of understanding of when

36:28

life starts and putting a spiritual

36:31

religious emphasis in one area and

36:33

a scientific on another? Like did

36:35

you guys see that confusion coming

36:37

or like the short-sidedness of trying

36:39

to put those policies through coming

36:41

and that it would have consequences

36:43

on fertility care? I think so.

36:45

I think the minute you reverse

36:47

something that protected a thing, then

36:49

leaves it up to interpretation. And

36:51

I think what we're really seeing

36:54

is people interpreting a decision or

36:56

a science or a field of

36:58

medicine that they don't quite honestly

37:00

grasp, right? And it's not to

37:02

the fault of. them I don't

37:04

I don't know if it's ill

37:06

intent bad intent I don't know

37:08

if everyone's writing this way that

37:10

this is a hot topic let

37:12

me jump on and talk about

37:14

it and I don't know what

37:17

I'm saying like I truly don't

37:19

understand but there's definitely a lack

37:21

of understanding because it's very contradictory

37:23

like your actions are not speaking

37:25

the language you're trying to speak

37:27

and I don't you know and

37:29

it's all around us and it's

37:31

not like it's not just it's

37:33

just people people people I talk

37:35

to Babies aren't real because they're

37:38

IDF babies and I don't know

37:40

what they were trying to say.

37:42

Was it even me? But you

37:44

know, all I yeah, all I

37:46

could think of was, well, you

37:48

should take them home for one

37:50

night and you know how real

37:52

they are. My gosh, people are

37:54

wild. When I was going through

37:56

it, it kind of clicked with

37:58

me. It's like, You know,

38:01

okay, by the time I was all

38:03

in with two retrievals, it was probably,

38:05

you know, 50 or 60 something eggs

38:07

in single digits of embryos genetically tested.

38:09

That's 50 to 60 months where one

38:11

egg would be released and each of

38:14

those eggs represents one of my chances.

38:16

And by the time I had experienced

38:18

all of those chances, I'd be like

38:20

four years older. My egg quality would

38:22

have declined. My chances would have declined.

38:24

And really what we're doing is expediting

38:27

this process, as you said earlier. This

38:29

makes so much sense. This is a

38:31

medical miracle that we can do this.

38:33

There are many financial and economic and

38:35

other reasons millennials have delayed milestones. We

38:37

might be having kids later, due to

38:39

being a product of our time, due

38:42

to the amazing enhanced opportunities that women

38:44

have now, the information agent beyond. It's

38:46

such a gift that... we could expedite

38:48

this process. And I think people, when

38:50

they see this like harvesting and collection

38:52

of eggs, they're not always thinking about

38:55

it. It's like, well, one of those

38:57

is released a month, and those are

38:59

all of your chances, and your chances

39:01

decrease as you get older. And that's

39:03

the unfortunate reality of fertility. So just

39:05

a side note to anyone listening, that's

39:07

how I and non-woman in STEM think

39:10

about it. Exactly. That's actually the best

39:12

way to think about it. And believe

39:14

it. I was like. 30, almost 40

39:16

eggs. And my follow-up is when I

39:18

found out I had nothing make it

39:20

to an embryo. And I literally was

39:23

like, what do you mean? What happened?

39:25

Like I couldn't comprehend like, just like,

39:27

I don't blame people around us or

39:29

policy makers for not comprehending it because

39:31

I couldn't comprehend it as someone who

39:33

had those acts. What did you do

39:36

with all of them? Like you fertilize

39:38

them and they didn't develop and how

39:40

did they stop? Like help me understand

39:42

that. So I could understand why people

39:44

don't understand, but what I guess frustrating

39:46

is just, you know, when you don't

39:48

understand about a topic, then it's don't

39:51

speak about it because it's clearly, it's

39:53

creating confusion and I'm confused as a

39:55

woman who has these acts, like I

39:57

can't imagine what others were not going

39:59

through this. Right, right. Oh, for sure.

40:01

It is such its own world, its

40:04

own lexicon, being inside of it,

40:06

I think it inspires a lot

40:08

of people to be advocates because

40:10

it's a lot of detail

40:13

that you wouldn't come across

40:15

organically because it's so complicated.

40:17

Okay, so going back to

40:20

the previous conversation about medical

40:22

definitions of personhood versus what

40:24

happened in Alabama. Some lawmakers

40:27

have proposed potentially limiting the

40:29

number of eggs that can

40:31

be fertilized or requiring all

40:33

viable embryos to be transferred,

40:35

among other rumors and potential

40:37

scenarios of things women could

40:40

be required to do. What

40:42

would these restrictions mean for...

40:44

patient safety and what would

40:46

they mean for treatment success?

40:48

Number one, it's going to

40:50

be very hard, right? One

40:53

of our limitations for fertility and IDF

40:55

is the financial resources that are needed.

40:57

It is very expensive to culture an

40:59

embryo, to grow an embryo, get it

41:02

to that genetic stage. And if we

41:04

limit, if we say life begins at

41:06

fertilization, therefore we limit the number

41:09

of eggs a woman fertilizes, if

41:11

we say one egg, we fertilize it, we culture

41:13

it. That's thousands of dollars you're going

41:15

to pay to culture this one act

41:17

that may potentially not make it. So

41:19

I think barrier to access and that

41:21

financial burden is just going to tenfold.

41:23

So I think we're going to limit

41:25

the number of patients that come in

41:27

if we speak about that. If we

41:29

talk about, I mean, I have 30

41:32

plus embryos that are abnormal in the

41:34

bank. If someone comes to me and

41:36

says, well, you know, those are all

41:38

people. and you're going to have to

41:40

use them. The majority of them will

41:42

cause miscarriages and ectopic pregnancies because they're

41:44

labeled abnormal. And that's going to put

41:46

my life at risk. And that's the

41:48

last thing we want, right? We want

41:50

to use this to understand it, fine-tune

41:52

the process, and improve our success. We

41:54

don't want anyone to suffer. And that

41:57

can lead to lots of complications like

41:59

infections, surgical intervention. and blood loss, and

42:01

we just don't want that. We

42:03

don't want to put someone's life

42:05

at stake because we have policies

42:07

that don't make medical sense to

42:09

that. And we're also gonna have

42:11

fear because then people may not

42:13

want a genetic test because if

42:15

someone comes to me, if I

42:17

had those in the bank and

42:20

says, well, they're not tested, now

42:22

you have to use some. Now

42:24

imagine all of the financial resources

42:26

and the time it would take

42:28

somebody. in their late 30s, early

42:30

40s to go through those embryos

42:32

to find the right one. Again,

42:34

miscarriages, they'll transfer, paying for cycles

42:36

and medications. Yeah, it's almost hard

42:38

to even justify the undergoing the

42:40

whole process for just one to

42:42

one because it's to arbitrarily pick

42:44

a fertilized egg. We don't know

42:46

which ones of those are going

42:49

to successfully fertilize, right? So you'd

42:51

just be picking at random. Correct.

42:53

So it would be like undoing

42:55

the science that's advanced in such

42:57

a little time that we understood

42:59

that, hey, not all eggs make

43:01

it to an embryo. So let's

43:03

subravulate. Hey, not all embryos implant.

43:05

So let's genetic test. Hey, not

43:07

all genetic testings make it to

43:09

babies. So let's figure out what

43:11

that. So it would be undoing

43:13

that. Not because we don't believe

43:15

in that science, but because of

43:18

purely because of fear. What happened

43:20

in Alabama was like was quickly

43:22

reversed essentially, but we saw in

43:24

a couple weeks time kind of

43:26

a microcosm of what could happen

43:28

on a larger scale in that

43:30

my understanding is if you make

43:32

the donation destruction, the, you know,

43:34

certain elements of frozen embryos have

43:36

a potential for criminal liability. What

43:38

happens from there? You know, providers

43:40

shutting down, becoming an issue of

43:42

physical access of people just even

43:45

having treatment options near them, what

43:47

they call brain drain of talent

43:49

and interest in going to certain

43:51

areas. Can you talk through what

43:53

happened in the couple weeks before

43:55

it was? reversed or before it

43:57

was protected and what that would

43:59

look like for providers if there

44:01

was a criminal liability. I think

44:03

in just those couple weeks we

44:05

saw them on a fear. It

44:07

was elicited. A lot of people

44:09

stopped treatment, right? As patients, mid-treatment,

44:11

they are like, well, we're not

44:14

going to go through this. I'm

44:16

on injections and just not going

44:18

to do it. Some patients just

44:20

revered, it's freezing. It's freezing. some

44:22

providers I think out of the

44:24

11 clinics there over 50% of

44:26

them shut down because they were

44:28

worried about the prosecution or any

44:30

legal implications of this patients started

44:32

transferring embryos not even out of

44:34

state but out of country because

44:36

they you know just uncertainty like

44:38

well this state can do it

44:40

maybe others will follow suit I

44:43

had patients transferring embryos I mean

44:45

I'm on social media so I

44:47

did a lot of consults of

44:49

like what does this mean what

44:51

do we do? And they're like,

44:53

oh, we're going to move our

44:55

embryos to South America or to

44:57

Europe or somewhere else because we

44:59

don't, we lose trust in our

45:01

country and our, you know, and

45:03

that's the last thing we want.

45:05

So, and coming from a person

45:07

who lies awake and thinks about

45:09

this and is like, do I

45:12

do this? My transfer is like

45:14

immediately because I don't know what's

45:16

going to happen and, you know,

45:18

I don't know if you can

45:20

answer this, but like, should, I

45:22

think people are worried who haven't

45:24

done it yet who may need

45:26

it. And I think people are

45:28

also worried who have already done

45:30

it and did it under the

45:32

circumstances that existed prior where there

45:34

wasn't any imminent threat of what

45:36

you did with your frozen embryos,

45:38

potentially having, you know, criminal implications.

45:41

Should I be scared that like

45:43

I would have to implant or

45:45

transfer all of them or should

45:47

I be nervous about things being

45:49

reversed that because of legislation that

45:51

was implemented after I did retrievals?

45:53

Like how do you kind of

45:55

talk to patients who are working

45:57

through that like fear? anxiety who

45:59

have already done it. The best

46:01

thing I tell my patients to

46:03

do is to play your part

46:05

to be involved like the last

46:07

thing I wanted to do was

46:10

be a doctor involved in politics

46:12

but unfortunately just given our current

46:14

climate that's where I have to

46:16

be because if policymakers are going

46:18

to make decisions about me as

46:20

a patient then I want to

46:22

have a voice there so being

46:24

involved being proactive is The most

46:26

important thing we could do, make

46:28

your voice heard. There's a lot

46:30

of organizations who support and help

46:32

fight for advocacy, revolve a SRM.

46:34

There's great resources, but use your

46:37

voice. And great, the last thing

46:39

we want to do is be

46:41

fearful and shut down. We want

46:43

to take that fear and turn

46:45

it into action. So make actionable

46:47

steps and protect yourself, protect your

46:49

future. I protect my embryos because

46:51

I use my voice to speak

46:53

up. and say, hey, this policy

46:55

is wrong. And if you look

46:57

at Nebraska's a great example, a

46:59

lot of their doctors are very

47:01

involved in the Nebraska type to

47:03

follow suit with Alabama, and they

47:06

were able to shut a lot

47:08

of these bills down. So going

47:10

back to PGT genetic testing, that

47:12

was something that we chose to

47:14

do because an in a big

47:16

driver was when you can rule

47:18

out chromosomal. on viability, it reduces

47:20

the incidence of miscarriage on my

47:22

part. And part of the reason

47:24

I was there was to avoid

47:26

heartbreak and to not be going,

47:28

you know, prevent that as much

47:30

as I could. I guess just

47:32

even explaining a little further why

47:35

how PGT fits into this conversation

47:37

and how it may be controversial

47:39

and why you as a provider

47:41

think that it's important technology. PGT

47:43

has pre-implantation genetic testing of the

47:45

embryo and it tests the cells

47:47

outside of the embryo that become

47:49

placental cells. It's anywhere from 92

47:51

to 95% accurate. And what PGT

47:53

has shown to do is decrease

47:55

the miscarriage rate independent of age.

47:57

And we know one of the

47:59

biggest things that not all embryos

48:01

implant and not all embryos implement

48:04

make it to a life birth.

48:06

And as we get older, especially

48:08

that magic number we hear 35,

48:10

36, 37, it's not that our

48:12

account drops significantly, it's that our

48:14

quality drops and that's why take

48:16

home baby rate drops and our

48:18

miscarriage rate goes up because once

48:20

again our body's really good at

48:22

recognizing abnormalities and just saying we're

48:24

going to miscarry it. So I

48:26

personally as a patient, like you

48:28

said, it's heartache, it's putting your

48:30

body through a lot of turmoil,

48:33

takes about four to six months

48:35

to recover from a miscarriage or

48:37

pregnancy loss, and it's financial resources.

48:39

So how I counsel my patients

48:41

is PGT's expensive, and yes, not

48:43

everyone's a good candidate for it,

48:45

but if you fit this criteria,

48:47

if you're presenting with recurrent loss,

48:49

if you're older, then you're going

48:51

to be paying a lot more

48:53

money to keep going through transfers

48:55

and failing or miscarry, as opposed

48:57

to genetic testing and finding the

48:59

right one to implant. Okay. It's

49:02

really helpful. I'm just curious because

49:04

the survey showed that 50% of

49:06

respondents would travel out of state

49:08

for treatment if necessary. Are there

49:10

practical implications of creating a system

49:12

where people need to cross state

49:14

lines for fertility care? I mean,

49:16

with the transferring of embryos, with

49:18

timing, I mean, it just seems

49:20

like even that as a intermediary

49:22

solution probably has risks associated with

49:24

it. Believe it or not a

49:26

lot of patients wanted to move

49:29

their embryos out. I've had patients

49:31

move their embryos to me because

49:33

they were in states that they

49:35

didn't feel they were well protected.

49:37

And I think like you said

49:39

you need to be able to

49:41

sleep at night to know that

49:43

you're in a place where you

49:45

can trust that the policy makers

49:47

will be in your favor will

49:49

understand the implications of reproductive rights

49:51

and justice. whether it's going to

49:53

happen or not, but that uncertainty

49:55

will drive you crazy. Right. So

49:58

I think it is important. here

50:00

at Kindbody. We offer it more

50:02

in terms of access to care

50:04

as part of our enterprise benefit

50:06

because there's also fertility deserts. Reproductive

50:08

endocrinologists are hard to find. And

50:10

not a lot of us graduated

50:12

here. So there's areas where there's

50:14

just no fertility care and patients

50:16

have to travel. So there's a

50:18

political aspect of it, but there's

50:20

also an aspect where you just

50:22

don't have access to fertility doctors.

50:24

Well, and also the survey indicated

50:27

that like cost was a huge

50:29

barrier with treatments reaching around 20,000

50:31

per cycle. Just curious, how do

50:33

current insurance policies affect access to

50:35

IVF and what changes would like

50:37

make the biggest difference? And even,

50:39

you know, there, it's not even

50:41

just insurance coverage in, you know,

50:43

limit LGBTQ. plus individuals, you know,

50:45

specifically receiving coverage. And can you

50:47

just talk a little bit about

50:49

the barriers that exist today with

50:51

insurance coverage? So it's a state

50:53

by state. So how it's currently

50:56

worded is each state gets to

50:58

determine and decide if they're going

51:00

to cover fertility. And most states

51:02

don't cover fertility. And how they

51:04

cover it is they may put

51:06

lifetime maximums on it or put

51:08

no embryo banking clause on it

51:10

that say you do a retrieval

51:12

and you have three embryos you

51:14

have to use all of them

51:16

up before you transfer, before you

51:18

transfer I had a patient literally

51:20

tell me like they robbed her

51:22

of possibly having a second because

51:25

she was 41. They said no

51:27

more IDF you have embryos. She

51:29

went and transferred, got pregnant, came

51:31

back and used her last one,

51:33

didn't work and by the time

51:35

she came back she was 45

51:37

and just couldn't do any more

51:39

IDF because the chance of taking

51:41

home a baby at 45 even

51:43

through IBSF for slow. We can't

51:45

defy biology. She literally was like,

51:47

I feel like they robbed me.

51:49

They robbed me of my ability

51:51

to have a baby because there's

51:54

banking clause on there where insurance

51:56

is the same thing. Whoever made

51:58

wrote that policy said, can't bank

52:00

embryos because we're treating your infertility

52:02

and how we treat it is

52:04

you do IVF and you transfer

52:06

or there's certain insurance that say

52:08

well you have to be exposed

52:10

to sperm for 12 months to

52:12

be deemed infertile and if you're

52:14

a same-sex couple that's going

52:16

to be very hard to be

52:19

exposed to sperm right like and

52:21

that's where that mental health component

52:23

plays in because now you're not

52:25

only telling them that there can't user

52:27

benefits for treatment, but you're

52:29

also telling them that their

52:32

way of life doesn't meet

52:34

the definition. Like, it's just

52:36

mind-boggling that we're so progressive

52:38

in one arm and then

52:40

so backwards in the other,

52:42

right? So each state gets

52:44

to determine whether they cover

52:46

infertility or fertility benefits. Then

52:48

from there, each employer gets to

52:51

determine. how they cover fertility and if

52:53

they need to cover it. And then

52:55

from there, there's also loopholes to that

52:58

like Illinois is a mandated state. But

53:00

if you have less than 90

53:02

employees, if you're affiliated with a

53:05

union, if you're affiliated with a

53:07

religious institution, then you're exempt from

53:09

covering fertility. Oh, I didn't know that.

53:12

What did you say? You're a

53:14

religious institution less than 90? Employees?

53:16

Or if you're unions don't have

53:18

to follow the mandates. That's interesting.

53:20

And is... coverage something that could

53:23

be required by law of private

53:25

companies? Is that something you guys

53:27

advocate for? Or like, I guess

53:29

I didn't even realize it. Has

53:32

it always been at the state

53:34

level? Is that something new? No,

53:36

it's always been at the state

53:38

level. So each state gets to

53:40

decide whether they or not they

53:43

cover fertility. Believe it or

53:45

not, the federal government up

53:47

until maybe a year? A go

53:49

did not cover any fertility, but

53:51

very recently, there's still not an

53:53

IBS yet, but recently federal employees

53:55

are getting IUI coverage. If you're

53:57

a veteran, you have zero fertility

53:59

coverage. I think recently they started covering

54:01

IUIs again. But same thing, you have

54:04

to jump through loopholes, you have to

54:06

figure out your why, you need prior

54:08

authorization. The biggest thing you could do

54:10

is get involved with resolve. There's a

54:13

drop-down menu and you can put in

54:15

the state and it'll tell you if

54:17

that state's mandated, does it cover anything?

54:20

Who your point of context? They have

54:22

local state-by-state resolve advocacy groups that you

54:24

can actually go fight for this. And

54:26

California actually became mandated about two weeks

54:29

ago. Yes, that's right. That's so interesting

54:31

too because to be restrictive around prior

54:33

authorization and like diagnoses for something that

54:35

a lot's not known about and it's

54:38

quite challenging to diagnose makes it all

54:40

the more, you know, the optics of

54:42

coverage are great, but if there's going

54:44

to be a lot of language in

54:47

there about diagnosis. in a field where

54:49

there's not a ton of research or

54:51

knowns, that just probably makes it even

54:53

more difficult. Yeah. And it's crazy because

54:56

then they'll go to the patient, like

54:58

as a doctor, it's so frustrating, as

55:00

I had a patient yesterday. Well, I

55:03

called them insurance and they said, I

55:05

have no fertility coverage unless I have

55:07

an underlying medical diagnosis. And I was

55:09

like, well, when they say that to

55:12

you, they mean that you're at risk

55:14

of losing your ovary because you have

55:16

cancer. And then they'll cover it. But

55:18

if I say you have PCOS and

55:21

infertile, they won't cover it because then

55:23

you bounce back into elective and you're

55:25

subfertile and fertile. Oh, I've never heard

55:27

that. Yeah. It's just, it's all these

55:30

nuances that I unfortunately learned from being

55:32

a patient and having to, you know,

55:34

you get stuck like running between your

55:36

doctor and then running to your insurance

55:39

and then waiting for, it's like stop

55:41

wait. It's like. the most frustrating thing.

55:43

It really is and I think that

55:45

all the while you're navigating a lot

55:48

of the mental load and mental health

55:50

element of really something I think people

55:52

don't put enough stock in in terms

55:55

of its difficulty which is your reality

55:57

departing in such a way from your

55:59

expectations that you're really spoken to. about

56:01

having children. I call it the love

56:04

marriage baby carriage pipeline. You're told like

56:06

it's really straightforward to find the right

56:08

part and you'll have babies and all

56:10

these things and a lot of, and

56:13

when women don't talk about this process,

56:15

there's a lot of isolation and a

56:17

lot of disappointment and to be navigating

56:19

the practicalities of insurance and finances all

56:22

the while kind of dealing with that

56:24

trauma. It's just like, why are we

56:26

putting people through so much? It just

56:28

it's it's it's cruel to me but

56:31

anyway no I so appreciate your time

56:33

and you know I know we talked

56:35

about getting involved with the resolve and

56:38

and being an advocate when patients express

56:40

anxiety about future access to care you

56:42

know we talked about addressing their concerns

56:44

but you know is there any element

56:47

of like maintaining hope you can give

56:49

in addition to practical guidance I feel

56:51

like going into this election there's just

56:53

like so many unknowns and that might

56:56

be the reality and maybe the reality

56:58

is we should be scared and we

57:00

should be alarmed and called to action

57:02

but are there any like protections in

57:05

place or any at the federal level

57:07

or at all that we can like

57:09

rest easy on or not? To be

57:11

honest the short answers there isn't right

57:14

because it's truly up in the air

57:16

but I think what I find solacean

57:18

and and I live in Illinois and

57:20

we all kind of know how Illinois

57:23

favors. And I think not just at

57:25

the national level, but truly know your

57:27

policy makers at your local government levels.

57:30

Because if we're going to leave it

57:32

to the hands of local leaders, don't,

57:34

you know, don't just think about this

57:36

every four years, but think about this

57:39

at every level. every state level, local

57:41

level, every city level, because all of

57:43

those people are integrated. And this is

57:45

where these policies start. So I hate

57:48

to keep saying this, but truly understand

57:50

where you're at. And as a patient,

57:52

right now I'm comforted because I know

57:54

where I am and where my embryos

57:57

are, but that could change in a

57:59

heartbeat. And the only thing I could

58:01

do is try to understand my candidates.

58:03

That's such a great point, because we're

58:06

talking about this in the context of

58:08

a presidential election, but there's not

58:10

only a lot. of really relevant

58:12

reproductive items on the ballot in

58:14

I think 10 states. There are

58:17

also a lot of local elections

58:19

we should be paying attention to

58:21

and I didn't even know that

58:23

IVF was already at the state

58:26

level. So if I understand correctly,

58:28

the rolling back of reproductive rights

58:30

kind of opened a window for

58:32

policies to be introducing fetal personhood

58:34

laws that could impact IVF but

58:37

that was already at the state

58:39

level. Correct. Fertility coverage was already

58:41

at the state level. And I

58:43

think what reversing of Roby

58:45

Wade did was to further

58:48

say, okay, you know, all of

58:50

this will lie at the state

58:52

level. And then even though it

58:54

had nothing to do with fertility,

58:56

it opened the doors to say,

58:58

well, when does conception actually start?

59:00

What does this mean? How does

59:02

it impact not only once you're

59:04

pregnant but before you're pregnant? So

59:07

fertility coverage was always at the

59:09

state level. This just kind of

59:11

married the two. Well, Dr. Jalani, this was

59:13

so helpful. I'm so grateful for your time.

59:15

I know my listeners are too. And thank

59:17

you for all of your advocacy and

59:19

thank you for being part of what

59:21

I trusted for my future family. A

59:23

kind body is the best, so thank

59:25

you for being a part of this.

59:27

Of course, thank you for having

59:30

me. It is the best.

59:32

Normally when I'm crowdsourced and

59:34

read stories, I will react in that

59:36

color commentary, but those of

59:38

you who wrote in were

59:40

so incredibly generous to share

59:42

what are often incredibly traumatic

59:44

experiences with me. I know

59:46

it's not fun to... Relive, rewrite,

59:48

and I just want to get through as

59:51

many as possible. And so let's now read

59:53

through some of people's experiences. My stories long-winded,

59:55

true, be there in five fashion, but sharing

59:57

this is so important to me. If I could walk...

1:00:00

around with a badge that says, you

1:00:02

can talk to me about your miscarriage,

1:00:04

abortion, health care without it being weird,

1:00:06

I would. Not having access to mythopristone

1:00:08

in Texas changed my trying to conceive

1:00:10

trajectory and being made to feel like

1:00:13

my medical event was somehow religious in

1:00:15

nature, left me feeling robbed of so

1:00:17

many things. Writing this out was cathartic.

1:00:19

Thank you for the space. For context,

1:00:21

I live in Austin, Texas, health care,

1:00:23

etc. I'd book an appointment eight months

1:00:26

out to get established and I'm beyond

1:00:28

glad that I did because I know

1:00:30

our miscarriage experience would have been even

1:00:32

worse without a doctor who was on

1:00:34

the same page. We found out we

1:00:36

were pregnant on July 4th over the

1:00:39

moon excited. First pregnancy and so much

1:00:41

joy. I started spotting around seven weeks

1:00:43

at the time. I started spotting around

1:00:45

seven weeks. At the time my HCG

1:00:47

levels were rising normally but we hit

1:00:49

a point where my doctor suggested heading

1:00:52

into the ER. The male ER doctor

1:00:54

came into our room and said, essentially

1:00:56

this is a miscarriage slash blighted ovum.

1:00:58

Your pregnancy isn't going to go forward.

1:01:00

This happens all the time. You'll see

1:01:02

your doctor in two days for a

1:01:05

follow-up. We left heartbroken and confused. Later

1:01:07

that day my doctor called me. We

1:01:09

left heartbroken and confused. Later that day

1:01:11

my doctor called me and shared that

1:01:13

the ER doctor should not have given

1:01:15

us a prognosis. We scheduled a follow-up

1:01:18

for around three weeks later and my

1:01:20

doctor suggested that we should prepare for

1:01:22

both outcomes. The next three weeks were

1:01:24

awful. I started spotting the day I

1:01:26

saw my doctor at around seven and

1:01:28

a half weeks and was still nauseated

1:01:31

by the smell of coffee. Things felt

1:01:33

like they might be looking up but

1:01:35

we were doing our best to simmer

1:01:37

our expectations. At ten and a half

1:01:39

weeks we went in for my follow-up

1:01:42

appointment again on the ultrasound we saw

1:01:44

just a gestational sac had grown in

1:01:46

size and reached the threshold to be

1:01:48

called a missed miscarriage. where development had

1:01:50

fully ceased but my body hadn't processed

1:01:52

the pregnancy was not viable. My HCG

1:01:55

levels were incredibly high at this time

1:01:57

and my doctor advised three different options.

1:01:59

One, weighted out naturally, this could take

1:02:01

up to six weeks given my hormones,

1:02:03

weren't showing any sign of decreasing. Two,

1:02:05

medical abortion with myoprostal, I always like

1:02:08

get tongue tied saying that, sorry, if

1:02:10

I'm saying that, sorry, I always like

1:02:12

get tongue tied saying that, sorry if

1:02:14

I'm saying it wrong, or three, an

1:02:16

in-office DNC. I had researched and how

1:02:18

to handle them. If we had a

1:02:21

complication zone, she advised that we go

1:02:23

to the ER in downtown Austin, the

1:02:25

hospital affiliated with the UT Medical School,

1:02:27

to be able to receive the best

1:02:29

version of care. She noted two things

1:02:31

that really stuck out. One, she included

1:02:34

Copie's notes with the prescription to justify

1:02:36

why I needed them and to call

1:02:38

her office and if we ran into

1:02:40

any issues getting my subprostall at the

1:02:42

pharmacy. And two, we shouldn't go back

1:02:44

to the hospital in the suburbs during

1:02:47

this process. I mean, talk about added

1:02:49

stress, right? My body wasn't able to

1:02:51

process the fact that we were having

1:02:53

a miscarriage. It might have difficulty getting

1:02:55

the med needed to support my body

1:02:57

and moving to the next phase to

1:03:00

be able to try again. But also

1:03:02

we needed to be incredibly mindful of

1:03:04

where and how we were to seek

1:03:06

care should that be needed. We got

1:03:08

the meds on a Friday. I administered

1:03:11

them at home Saturday, August 17th. I'll

1:03:13

spare you the details, but that day

1:03:15

was incredibly hard for all the reasons

1:03:17

you can imagine, physically, physically for me

1:03:19

and emotionally, for my husband. Key element

1:03:21

here. We live in Texas where OBGYNs

1:03:24

cannot prescribe mifuristone to patients. In other

1:03:26

states, it is standard care procedure to

1:03:28

prescribe both mifuristone and miceprustal for medical

1:03:30

abortion. When medical abortions of both medications,

1:03:32

the effectiveness of the medications is incredibly

1:03:34

high. Without mifuristone, the effectiveness rate decreases

1:03:37

and the risk for complications increases. I

1:03:39

had a girl's trip to Chicago scheduled

1:03:41

about a week and a half later

1:03:43

and cleared with my doctor that I'd

1:03:45

be okay to fly. I was feeling

1:03:47

better physically, bleeding it slowed down, I

1:03:50

was in regular pads and felt like

1:03:52

I could really use the change of

1:03:54

scenery. While my flight from Austin to

1:03:56

Chicago was landing, I all of a

1:03:58

sudden had intense... back pain and felt

1:04:00

like I was bleeding through my pad completely out

1:04:02

of nowhere. I felt sick to my stomach and

1:04:05

while we taxied out of hair, I was calculating

1:04:07

how I was going to get myself to the

1:04:09

bathroom on the plane to assess the situation. I made

1:04:11

it to the bathroom on the plane and it was

1:04:13

like I had just taken the abortion med all over

1:04:15

again. It took me two full hours to get

1:04:17

myself off the plane to baggage claim and to

1:04:20

the Uber line, stopping in the bathroom six different

1:04:22

times changing my overnight giant giant pads four times.

1:04:24

This should have been a major red

1:04:26

flag to head to the ER, but

1:04:28

I was alone, completely exhausted from blood

1:04:30

loss, texting my husband to locate

1:04:32

in network hospitals, and just attempting

1:04:34

to make it to the next step.

1:04:36

I hadn't shared quite yet with my

1:04:39

friends that we've been expecting and going

1:04:41

through all of this, but as soon as

1:04:43

my Uber arrived at my friend's apartment,

1:04:45

I bled through, and my cool girl's

1:04:47

spanks sweatpants betrayed me. My friends were

1:04:50

total gems. Female friendship is

1:04:52

the most special thing on the planet.

1:04:54

I called my doctor's emergency line, ran through

1:04:56

all the things they advised me to keep an eye on

1:04:58

the bleeding. If it were to pick up again, head to

1:05:00

the ER. Aside from being mortified in the O'Hare

1:05:02

Airport and completely drained from bleeding, things leveled

1:05:05

out over the next two days, it felt

1:05:07

like I was on the other side. Fast

1:05:09

forward another week, a full three weeks after I

1:05:11

had taken my superostal. I was walking my

1:05:13

dog with my husband and started having back

1:05:16

pain and started having back pain pain.

1:05:18

I genuinely thought maybe my periods coming back.

1:05:20

Later that night my husband was out

1:05:22

with a friend and I was home

1:05:24

solo watching Gilmore Girls as one does. I

1:05:26

all of a sudden had the same feeling that I

1:05:28

did on the plane, intense back pain, feeling

1:05:31

like I was going to throw up. I

1:05:33

went to the bathroom and again it was just

1:05:35

as if I had taken the meds. I went

1:05:37

to the bathroom and again it was just

1:05:39

as if I had taken the meds. I went

1:05:41

back and forth from the shower and

1:05:43

made the shower and made our way

1:05:45

to the specific downtown slash medical school

1:05:47

ER. I actually remember stopping to put my

1:05:49

wedding rings on because I thought, is this

1:05:52

how I avoid getting in trouble for this? Is

1:05:54

this how I get the care I need? When we were checking

1:05:56

in, I literally handed the nurse my

1:05:58

insurance card and my cost... membership card.

1:06:00

That's how barely there I was after losing

1:06:02

so much blood. I'll spare you the full

1:06:05

ER saga, but in short, I had an

1:06:07

incredible ER nurse in the obitu I am

1:06:09

resident in attending on-callward top-notch. My doctor was

1:06:11

right. This hospital knew what they were doing.

1:06:13

By the time we reached the pelvic exam,

1:06:16

I was so overwhelmed and couldn't handle the

1:06:18

sounds of the ER anymore. I had my

1:06:20

partner blast cruel summer throughout the entire thing.

1:06:22

Talk about a different experience when I heard

1:06:25

it a different experience when I heard it

1:06:27

at the air store. It took approximately five

1:06:29

hours, but they arrived at the conclusion that

1:06:31

the medical abortion with my substantial did not

1:06:34

work completely. I still had products of conception

1:06:36

and my uterus. By the time they were

1:06:38

prepping the O.R. to put me under for

1:06:40

an emergency DNC, I was fading in and

1:06:42

out of consciousness, sweating, throwing up and shaking.

1:06:45

Great care, but here comes the very Catholic

1:06:47

part. When I woke up in the post-oper

1:06:49

room and started to come out of anesthesia,

1:06:51

the nurse had a question for me. This

1:06:54

hospital is affiliated affiliated with the Catholic Church.

1:06:56

To honor this pregnancy in the life of

1:06:58

the baby, how do you want to handle

1:07:00

the remains? The remains? Were they serious? Do

1:07:03

they mean the blood clots of my gestational

1:07:05

sack? I was speechless and my partner was

1:07:07

ready to come out of his chair. They

1:07:09

provided three options. One, pick them up in

1:07:11

two weeks yourself. Two, a mass burial blessed

1:07:14

by. a priest without notification. This was the

1:07:16

most wild experience of my life. We're church

1:07:18

people, we attend a Methodist church, and are

1:07:20

incredibly active in our community, but religion brought

1:07:23

into this traumatic medical event. This isn't a

1:07:25

God thing, this is a medical event. Absolutely

1:07:27

insane. This added another layer of trauma to

1:07:29

the overall experience that rocked me. We chose

1:07:32

option three not to be notified. My mom

1:07:34

flew the same day to take care of

1:07:36

us. I missed a week of work and

1:07:38

my husband and I have been in a

1:07:41

lot of therapy. When I went to my

1:07:43

follow-up appointment with the OBGYN, she relaid that

1:07:45

would not have happened if she'd been able

1:07:47

to prescribe both Miffapristone and my Sapprostall. She

1:07:49

shared that she's currently in the process of

1:07:52

figuring out how to sign her life away,

1:07:54

to be able to administer the medication in

1:07:56

her office, so that this doesn't happen to

1:07:58

other patients who choose the medication route. I

1:08:01

knew that if I hadn't chosen the medication

1:08:03

when I did... at 10 and a half

1:08:05

weeks and gotten the process started, had my

1:08:07

body not started to miss carrying actually until

1:08:10

later, 12 plus weeks, I would have had

1:08:12

a vastly different, likely health-altering experience that may

1:08:14

have been a name in the headlines. I

1:08:16

could have very easily been Amber Thurman. I

1:08:18

could have very easily been Amber Thurman. I've

1:08:21

recognized. I could have very easily been Amber

1:08:23

Thurman. I've recognized my, I've been a name

1:08:25

in the headlines. I could have very easily

1:08:27

been Amber Thurman, Amber Thurman, increase my health

1:08:30

care cost exponentially, no one talks about having

1:08:32

a stack of bills but no baby. Yeah.

1:08:34

Introduce more trauma than necessary, and it robbed

1:08:36

us of time. Had my medical abortion been

1:08:39

completed in August, it would have had a

1:08:41

different path to recovery and maybe even a

1:08:43

quicker path to trying to conceive again. I've

1:08:45

been pro-choice for a long time, but I'm

1:08:47

hopeful there's a day when we have a

1:08:50

standard of care that actually prioritizes women's health

1:08:52

care and empowers them to make their own

1:08:54

decisions that aren't limited by the government. Thank

1:08:56

you for sharing. It's

1:08:59

so cruel, I'm so sorry. Think about

1:09:02

that in addition to grieving. Like all

1:09:04

the physical and emotional trauma is just,

1:09:06

it's, and the fact that it's unnecessary

1:09:08

and that you had to go through

1:09:10

that because politicians write this stuff into

1:09:12

policy for sport to galvanize voters for

1:09:15

things they don't even understand to make

1:09:17

it look like it's this myopic issue

1:09:19

when it's not. We

1:09:25

had to use IVF to conceive our first child after I was

1:09:27

diagnosed with diminished ovarian reserve and my husband had male factor in

1:09:29

fertility. We were super lucky that it worked and we had a

1:09:31

healthy baby in 2022. Once we were ready to try again, we

1:09:33

figured we could see if we could conceive without treatment for a

1:09:36

few cycles and miraculously got pregnant without IVF. Everything was proceeding normally

1:09:38

until a noukel skin at 13 weeks when we learned our daughter

1:09:40

had a fatal condition. She had severe swelling and an enormous cyst

1:09:42

on her neck and brain and was losing amniotic fluid. This swelling

1:09:44

also put me at risk for mere syndrome, which would cause severe

1:09:46

blood pressure issues that could eventually become life-threatening. Unfortunately, we live in

1:09:49

Georgia. just so termination for medical

1:09:51

reasons was not an option. I

1:09:53

had to take in this devastating

1:09:55

news at the same time that

1:09:57

I realized I had no options

1:10:00

to care for myself or my

1:10:02

baby. The doctor said our baby

1:10:04

would die at some point between

1:10:06

now and full term or shortly

1:10:08

after delivery and our only option

1:10:10

was to continue coming in for

1:10:13

a scan to see if she

1:10:15

had passed yet. Two

1:10:17

weeks later, I had to see my baby's

1:10:19

heartbeat and her move around and felt like a

1:10:21

horrible human for being upset she was still

1:10:23

alive. How long would she continue suffering? How long

1:10:25

would I carry her all while my belly

1:10:28

grew and people started to ask about my pregnancy

1:10:30

and congratulate me? It was the most horrific,

1:10:32

stressful experience of my life. After that scan, I

1:10:34

couldn't bear to continue and didn't want my

1:10:36

child to suffer any longer. We had to search

1:10:38

and find contacts out of state for hospitals

1:10:40

and abortion clinics who could perform a termination, which

1:10:42

was complicated at times because we didn't have

1:10:44

a formal diagnosis. We finally ended up terminating at

1:10:46

16 weeks and I miss my baby every

1:10:48

day, but I'm glad I was able to do

1:10:51

the compassionate thing by ending my pregnancy for

1:10:53

her and myself. Finding out we would lose our

1:10:55

daughter was awful enough and it was made

1:10:57

so much more difficult by our state's abortion ban.

1:10:59

I'm now thankfully pregnant again through IVF. Without

1:11:01

IVF, I don't think I would have felt comfortable

1:11:03

getting pregnant again because of where we live.

1:11:05

Our embryo was genetically tested so we were hopeful

1:11:07

eliminating having to go through a termination for

1:11:09

genetic conditions again. After what I've been through, I'm

1:11:11

so passionate about what these laws mean and

1:11:14

how it's absolutely not pro -life to make a

1:11:16

woman who desperately wants a child to go through

1:11:18

this or to make babies suffer in the

1:11:20

womb or upon delivery. Thank you so much for

1:11:22

sharing. This is the next email. I live

1:11:24

in Texas and in late 2021, I found out

1:11:26

I was pregnant for the first time. My

1:11:28

husband and I were ecstatic. In January of 2022,

1:11:30

I went to the doctor for my eight -week

1:11:32

ultrasound slash confirmation appointment. During the appointment, I

1:11:34

found out that while there was a sac present

1:11:37

in my uterus, there wasn't an embryo. They

1:11:39

call this an anembriotic pregnancy or blighted ovum, but

1:11:41

I think that term is fucked up and

1:11:43

it makes me sad. Long story short, there was

1:11:45

no embryo, which means there was definitely no

1:11:47

heartbeat, but my body didn't seem to know that.

1:11:49

I still had all the pregnancy symptoms, sore

1:11:51

nipples, nausea, et cetera. My choices were to let

1:11:53

my body recognize that the pregnancy wasn't viable

1:11:55

on its own, get a DNC, or take medication

1:11:57

to remove the pregnancy remains from my body. This

1:12:00

is an abortion regardless of the fact that there

1:12:02

was no embryo. I chose the medication. The

1:12:04

complication was that in September of 2021,

1:12:06

Texas had passed the Texas Heartbeat Act,

1:12:08

which banned abortion after a heartbeat is

1:12:10

detected. Well, none was detected in my case.

1:12:13

Things were complicated. And the Texas bill

1:12:15

allowed for ordinary citizens to essentially be

1:12:17

bounty hunters and turn people in, who

1:12:19

they suspected had an abortion. My doctor ended

1:12:21

up prescribing me, one medication instead of the two she normally

1:12:23

used. She said there would be less issues with me being

1:12:25

able to fill my prescription and there was a ton more

1:12:27

paperwork if she were to prescribe the two medication regimen. But

1:12:29

guess what? The two medications work better together and there are

1:12:31

more side effects using just my suppressal. The medication ended up

1:12:34

working fine, but it's working fine, but it's working fine, but

1:12:36

it's working fine, but it's working fine, but it's working fine,

1:12:38

but it's working fine, but it's, but it's absolutely working fine,

1:12:40

but it, but it's, but it's working fine, but it's, but it's

1:12:42

working fine, but it's, but it's working fine, but it's working fine, but

1:12:44

it's, but it's working fine, but it's, but it's working fine, but it's,

1:12:46

but it's working fine, but it's working fine, but it's, but it's working

1:12:49

fine, but it's working fine, but it's working fine, but it's, but it's

1:12:51

working fine, but it's working fine, but it's So I thought

1:12:53

that was interesting, it kind of

1:12:55

shows two examples of, like for some

1:12:57

people it works, for some people it

1:13:00

really doesn't, but the sickest part of

1:13:02

all is, is that we know for

1:13:04

a fact that both work better together

1:13:07

and generate more positive patient outcomes and

1:13:09

with these stricter abortion laws, providers

1:13:11

are not able to do that. My elder

1:13:14

sister was always the girl with

1:13:16

problem periods. I remember my mother

1:13:18

putting her on birth control pills

1:13:20

in middle school to manage her issues.

1:13:22

The latter of which led to a host of other issues

1:13:24

including migraines, anemia, lack of energy, etc.

1:13:26

Her OBGYN arranged a partial hysterectomy to remedy

1:13:29

these issues and again at 51 she was

1:13:31

happy with this decision. She had all the

1:13:33

pre-op appointments and got the clear to have surgery

1:13:35

on Halloween 2018. Unfortunately as they were prepping

1:13:37

for surgery, they turned her away. You're pregnant.

1:13:39

We cannot perform this procedure on you, they

1:13:41

told her. She and her husband were aghast.

1:13:44

She and her husband were avehem, were a han

1:13:46

that they hadn't had had had had had had had

1:13:48

had had been. Certainly not in the last week.

1:13:50

She was told that she had HCG in her blood

1:13:52

and therefore was pregnant and to seek prenatal care. She

1:13:54

had a vaginal ultrasound and there was no baby. It's

1:13:56

too early to show she was told. In the

1:13:58

subsequent week she was tested for her HCG. They were

1:14:00

low, fetus was growing, but very slowly, and

1:14:02

not at the rate of a normal viable

1:14:04

pregnancy. It was positive she might have an

1:14:06

ectopic pregnancy, as there was still no baby

1:14:09

in the ultrasound, and that this needed to

1:14:11

be treated as it could be a threat

1:14:13

to her life. She went to her OBGYN,

1:14:15

terrified, and that this needed to be treated

1:14:17

as it could be a threat to her

1:14:19

life. She went to her OBGYN terrified. He

1:14:22

can fight her, or her OBGYN terrified. She

1:14:24

went to her anything other than she did.

1:14:26

It was not a slow-growing fetus, nor a

1:14:28

pregnancy of any kind. It was a calangio

1:14:30

carcinoma, better known as bile duct cancer. It's

1:14:32

an aggressive and rare and deadly cancer. It's

1:14:34

especially deadly because it is generally symptomless until

1:14:37

it is too late. Unfortunately, after the waiting

1:14:39

game of the first trimester, it was too

1:14:41

late. She passed away the following July. The

1:14:43

irony is not lost on me that she

1:14:45

died around the time this phantom fetus, this

1:14:47

phantom fetus, if conceived in October, would have

1:14:49

been born. In all fairness, do I think

1:14:52

she'd still be here five years later? Has

1:14:54

she been treated immediately? Maybe, but probably not.

1:14:56

It's still a deadly and rare cancer and

1:14:58

there's not a chemotherapy, at least as of

1:15:00

2019, that could effectively cure it. But what

1:15:02

I wouldn't give for a few more weeks,

1:15:04

a few more months, my gun is even

1:15:07

one more months, my gun is even one

1:15:09

more day, with one's even one more day

1:15:11

with her. And to think one more months,

1:15:13

even one more day, is even one more

1:15:15

day, one more day with her. My gun

1:15:17

is even one more day with her. And

1:15:20

I'm a genetic link, and I'm a genetic

1:15:22

link, a genetic link, a genetic link, a

1:15:24

genetic link. Thank goodness I lived in Virginia

1:15:26

and while it's a little too purple these

1:15:28

days for my taste I still have rights

1:15:30

for now. Thank you for sharing and I'm

1:15:32

so sorry for your loss. I'm in my

1:15:35

late 30s and I have four children and

1:15:37

I've worked for the abortion amendment in our

1:15:39

state Arkansas which was thrown out on a

1:15:41

technicality. In the past six months I've had

1:15:43

two friends after years of infertility become pregnant

1:15:45

and find out between 15 and 18 weeks

1:15:47

their baby had severe medical and severe medical

1:15:50

and physical issues and would not survive or

1:15:52

an immediate or an immediate danger. Both had

1:15:54

to leave the state to have procedures. That

1:15:56

alone was horrific. The governor of Arkansas, Sarah

1:15:58

Huckabee Sanders, tweeted out after she used her

1:16:00

power to put pressure on the AG to

1:16:02

throw out the abortion amendment. Not only are

1:16:05

they baby killers, they are inept. One of

1:16:07

my friends, a pillar of the community, is

1:16:09

leaving the state over it. It's absolutely awful.

1:16:11

Thanks for talking about this. It's so important.

1:16:13

Thank you for sharing. Unbelievable. In late September

1:16:15

of 2022, I was living in Texas and

1:16:17

I found out I was five weeks pregnant,

1:16:20

very early to find out. I basically realized

1:16:22

my period was a week late, took a

1:16:24

test, and there were the results. This was

1:16:26

an unplanned pregnancy between my and my wonderful

1:16:28

boyfriend who's now my fiance today and mutually

1:16:30

for many reasons. We were not ready to

1:16:33

have this baby. The abortion ban in Texas

1:16:35

took place in May of 2021, so this

1:16:37

legislature directly affected me in the realization they

1:16:39

now had to plan an out-of-state abortion and

1:16:41

consume you with anxiety. I had to figure

1:16:43

out where and how this is going to

1:16:45

happen, what I'd do with my job, and

1:16:48

what recovery would look like. Mine you, the

1:16:50

abortion ban laws included a $10,000 fine for

1:16:52

Texas women caught having an abortion and the

1:16:54

threat of life in the threat of life

1:16:56

in the threat of life in prison. I

1:16:58

now felt like I had a target on

1:17:00

my back and was afraid to tell me

1:17:03

one of my situation for fear of it

1:17:05

spreading to the wrong conservative Texan. This left

1:17:07

me feeling isolated alone and paranoid plus adding

1:17:09

to the immense amount of fear and sadness

1:17:11

I already had. In mid-October, two weeks later,

1:17:13

I had a pre-planned weekend trip, two weeks

1:17:15

later, I had a pre-planned weekend trip to

1:17:18

visit, two weeks later, I had. I had

1:17:20

a pre-planned weekend trip to visit my family,

1:17:22

a planned plan, a planned plan, and a

1:17:24

neighboring state Planned Parenthood, and a Planned Parenthood,

1:17:26

and a planned, and a neighboring state Planned

1:17:28

Parenthood, and a neighboring state-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a- He would fly

1:17:31

in from Texas because he was not joining

1:17:33

me on my family trip. After my few

1:17:35

days in Vermont, I would get my abortion

1:17:37

there. This required my boyfriend and purchase flight

1:17:39

tickets to meet me, as paying for an

1:17:41

Airbnb, for my recovery, getting a rental car,

1:17:43

finding dog care. These expenses were, we were

1:17:46

privileged, we were privileged to be, getting a

1:17:48

rental car, finding dog care. These expenses were,

1:17:50

we were privileged to be able to be

1:17:52

able to cover, but certainly were, we were,

1:17:54

we were, we were, No one questioned my

1:17:56

decision or made me consider other options. They

1:17:58

put my health care and wishes first, respecting

1:18:01

my decision, my body, and my humanity. There

1:18:03

weren't even abortion protesters outside the clinic like

1:18:05

you might see in Texas since abortion. a

1:18:07

very protected ride in Rhode Island, supported by

1:18:09

a huge majority of the residents. I was

1:18:11

now seven weeks, so I chose to take

1:18:13

the abortion pill. Over the next 24 hours,

1:18:16

I was curled up in bed or by

1:18:18

the toilet with horrible cramps and frequent visits

1:18:20

to the toilet that will haunt me. Apologies

1:18:22

for being graphic, that the amount of blood

1:18:24

I pass, and the amount of blood I

1:18:26

pass, and the amount of blood I pass,

1:18:28

and the amount of pads I'd like, Not

1:18:31

to mention, I couldn't take any time off

1:18:33

work, so during the daytime I'd be logged

1:18:35

into my computer working for my remote job

1:18:37

showing up on Zoom calls. After 48 hours

1:18:39

in Providence, we flew him to Texas, still

1:18:41

in major discomfort and bleeding and cramping. It

1:18:44

was the longest fight in my life. I

1:18:46

had not told any of my family who

1:18:48

was the longest fight in my life. I

1:18:50

had not told any of my family who

1:18:52

I was within Vermont of my pregnancy or

1:18:54

my planned abortion. I moved out of Texas

1:18:56

and back to New England where we both

1:18:59

are from. This abortion experience was the defining

1:19:01

reason for this move. I have to live

1:19:03

in a state where my personal health decisions

1:19:05

are protected. Again, a very privileged stance and

1:19:07

reality I'm able to have now. While I

1:19:09

face difficulties, trauma and inconvenience, my story is

1:19:11

probably way less traumatic, my story is probably

1:19:14

way less traumatic, my story is probably way

1:19:16

less traumatic, my story is probably way less

1:19:18

traumatic or dangerous or scary as other Texas

1:19:20

women. My story is probably way less traumatic

1:19:22

or dangerous or scary as other Texas women.

1:19:24

I've always been pro-choice but now of the

1:19:26

perspective to really understand the weight of needing

1:19:29

these laws in existence. Thank you so much

1:19:31

for sharing. I live in Alabama and was

1:19:33

impacted by the Alabama Supreme Court decision earlier

1:19:35

this year where embryos were deemed extrauter and

1:19:37

children and then our IVF clinic shut down

1:19:39

and we could not access our embryos for

1:19:42

a number of weeks in February and March.

1:19:44

We were married in 2021 in our mid-30

1:19:46

and I've been trying to have a child

1:19:48

ever since. I've had two miscarriages, one of

1:19:50

which was an an eight-week-week-old pregnancy-old pregnancy- As

1:19:52

an embryo through IVF, the delay of our

1:19:54

second transfer due to the Supreme Court decision

1:19:57

was heartbreaking, and we did eventually have a

1:19:59

transfer in late April. after waiting six plus

1:20:01

months to make it a reality, emptied with

1:20:03

our daughter in January 2025. It

1:20:05

was unbelievable that one small note

1:20:07

in my overall personal medical history

1:20:09

and fertility and medical diagnosis, which

1:20:11

should be between me and my

1:20:13

doctor, was suddenly up for discussion

1:20:15

and a treatment was denied to me, and

1:20:17

a treatment was denied to me. I was

1:20:20

more or less, I felt forced to decide

1:20:22

if I would make this medical situation in

1:20:24

my and public or not, decide if I

1:20:26

would dip my toes into advocacy, talk to

1:20:28

a reporter. I think a lot of people think that women in

1:20:30

Alabama are a certain type of person, but we are such a diverse

1:20:32

group. I'm originally from Wisconsin, my spouses from the Rocky Mountain West, and

1:20:34

we are in Alabama because we enjoy it here, and we enjoy our

1:20:36

jobs, and we have amazing friends. But I feel such a deep distrust of

1:20:38

our government leaders, that they do not see us as passionate, and that they

1:20:41

do not see us as passionate, educated, worthy members of society who deserve health

1:20:43

care and support. I never thought I do IVIF. I didn't know any other

1:20:45

women who have any other women who have any other women who have done

1:20:47

it, who have done, who have done it, who have done, who have

1:20:49

done, who have done, who have done, who have done, who have done,

1:20:51

who have done, who have done, who have done, who have done, who

1:20:53

have done, who have done, who have done, who have done, who have

1:20:55

done, who have done, but have done, but have done, but have done,

1:20:57

but have for it and so glad for our supportive and super intelligent

1:20:59

doctors who have seen us through this long journey.

1:21:01

A journey I managed to keep fairly

1:21:03

private until the moment came where I couldn't

1:21:05

anymore and decided to be an advocate. This

1:21:07

is one of the pieces she sent me

1:21:09

that I can quote. When I first write

1:21:11

about the IVF ruling, she sent me that

1:21:14

I can quote. When I first write about

1:21:16

the IVF ruling, I was absolutely outraged

1:21:18

on behalf of intended IVF parents in

1:21:20

the lawsuit who lost their embryos. Not

1:21:22

through children. One in five pregnancies ends in a miscarriage and there are

1:21:24

all sorts of other ways embryos don't make it to a live birth. It

1:21:26

has become even more clear to me after having two miscarriages. I see these embryos

1:21:29

as a chance of having children. They're groups of cells. They cannot support themselves without

1:21:31

being transferred into my uterus on exactly the right day of my cycle, when my

1:21:33

body's been prepared to care for them and grow them. Embrios need tools, but now

1:21:35

they've taken away our ability to give them tools to give them tools to survive.

1:21:37

We want to give these embryos a chance at life at life, and we want

1:21:39

to give these embryos a chance at life, and we want to a chance at

1:21:41

life, and we want to a chance at life, and we want to a chance

1:21:44

at life, and we want to, and we want to, and we want to a chance at

1:21:46

life, and we want to, and we want to, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and,

1:21:48

and, and, and, and, and, Our embryos are actually one of the

1:21:50

things that have kept us in Alabama. We've talked about

1:21:52

moving to one of our home states. Since we started

1:21:54

this process here, we wanted to stay until we saw

1:21:56

it through. Now we would consider leaving the state earlier than

1:21:58

it's anticipated if we need to move. our embryos

1:22:00

out of state will also move ourselves. I

1:22:02

really did believe this will be one more

1:22:05

contributor to brain drain out of Alabama because

1:22:07

it won't be just us. Thank you for

1:22:09

sharing. This is the next email. I know

1:22:11

this is a long shot to share my

1:22:14

story with you, but I too agree that

1:22:16

the personal stories are powerful in helping people

1:22:18

grasp their personal stories are powerful in helping

1:22:21

people grasp their reality of the often scary

1:22:23

term of abortion. While I was not denied

1:22:25

abortion care, my story is one of the

1:22:27

more positive treatment treatment stories. I have yet

1:22:30

to become a We are now hopeful to

1:22:32

have a child via surrogacy. Well, I still

1:22:34

hope that for you, too. My story is

1:22:37

many years long, of course, but in an

1:22:39

effort to keep this at a readable length,

1:22:41

I'll summarize. We so desperately want to have

1:22:43

a child and have pursued countless test surgeries

1:22:46

and invasive scans, IUIs, IVF, and more. I've

1:22:48

been pregnant four times, all of which have

1:22:50

ended in different types of loss, all unbelievablyably

1:22:52

life altering in their own ways. In 2020,

1:22:55

I was pregnant for the third time, and

1:22:57

things were progressing were progressing well. The non-invasive

1:22:59

prenatal testing came back low-risk and normal. Every

1:23:02

ultrasound was looking fine. We moved from our

1:23:04

reproductive endocrinologist to my OBGYN and had a

1:23:06

smooth sailing appointment. The doctor knew how nervous

1:23:08

my husband and I both were and even

1:23:11

went so far to ask, when can we

1:23:13

feel safe? We're so nervous. We're and even

1:23:15

went so far to ask, when can we

1:23:17

feel safe? We're so nervous after all we've

1:23:20

been through and she was as encouraging as

1:23:22

she could have been. The grip of my

1:23:24

husband's hand got tighter and tighter. With every

1:23:27

passing second I knew this was not good.

1:23:29

When the doctor came in she essentially kicked

1:23:31

the tech out and grabbed my other hand

1:23:33

and got real with me. It was an

1:23:36

out-of-body experience that I relived three more times

1:23:38

with different specialists in the coming days and

1:23:40

week. I was pregnant with a baby with

1:23:43

a coming days and week. I was pregnant

1:23:45

with a baby who we so very desperately,

1:23:47

as possible for both my baby boy and

1:23:49

for myself. We chose to terminate for medical

1:23:52

reasons. T-F-M-R. And I cannot begin to express

1:23:54

how grateful I am that we chosen to

1:23:56

move from Texas to California. prior to this

1:23:58

nightmare experience. I was given the care I

1:24:01

needed and deserved, as is every woman in

1:24:03

America. It cannot be understated that this decision

1:24:05

was hardly that. We knew. And while others

1:24:08

may not have moved forward in the way

1:24:10

that, no woman should be forced in the

1:24:12

way that, no woman should be forced to

1:24:14

subject themselves to a pregnancy of immense heartache

1:24:17

and fear, the thought of waiting for what

1:24:19

was described as a fetal demise was debilitating.

1:24:21

All this to say, abortions are necessary for

1:24:24

a plethora of the care patient requires. Thank

1:24:26

you so much for sharing. And I'm so

1:24:28

sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm trying not to

1:24:30

comment. Oh, I hear a phrase for you

1:24:33

guys. I wish I could read every single

1:24:35

word written and I'm trying to pick things

1:24:37

that represent different scenarios to kind of showcase

1:24:39

how different everybody's life is or everybody's story.

1:24:42

And some people write in with, you know,

1:24:44

stories of being treated compassionately, others not. And

1:24:46

I just, yeah, I wanted to... I guess

1:24:49

express most of all that blanketed laws can

1:24:51

never address everybody's unique situations. This is just

1:24:53

so personal and so different for everybody. And

1:24:55

I think we don't even always understand the

1:24:58

vast spectrum. And I just don't think we

1:25:00

understand how, because of the stigma, how the

1:25:02

term abortion has been stigmatized, like what this

1:25:05

can look like for people. About 10 years

1:25:07

ago, I volunteered in Chicago as a rape

1:25:09

victim advocate. Signing up for shifts to respond

1:25:11

to area hospitals for when a survivor of

1:25:14

sexual assault showed up to the emergency room

1:25:16

I would be their advocate to make sure

1:25:18

they had someone explaining all of the medical

1:25:20

and criminal legal processes that could unfold if

1:25:23

they wanted One of the hospitals that I

1:25:25

frequented was a Catholic hospital that could unfold

1:25:27

if they wanted One of the hospitals that

1:25:30

I frequented was a Catholic hospital on the

1:25:32

northwest side of the city One particular night

1:25:34

I'd been with the survivor and her boyfriend

1:25:36

about contraception namely plan B She was adamant

1:25:39

that she wanted plan B because she wanted

1:25:41

to ensure that there was no physical consequences.

1:25:43

from this rape. The nurse was really resistant

1:25:46

to ordering the medication and instead took the,

1:25:48

told the survivor she would have to have

1:25:50

the doctor write a prescription for plan B

1:25:52

for the survivor to pick it up from

1:25:55

the pharmacy on her way home. It was

1:25:57

already about four in the morning at this

1:25:59

point. The survivor said, absolutely not, I want

1:26:01

to leave here, had directly home and sleep

1:26:04

as much of tomorrow as I can. The

1:26:06

nurse huffed and then told the survivor she

1:26:08

would order a urine test to determine if

1:26:11

she was ovulating. At the survivor was obulating,

1:26:13

the nurse would urge the doctor to write

1:26:15

the prescription, since there would be a good

1:26:17

chance the medication would work. It would do

1:26:20

its job, preventing the unwanted pregnancy from a

1:26:22

rape. And the nurse would use the science

1:26:24

of testing the rape survivor's lutinizing hormone from

1:26:27

her urine to back up the religious belief

1:26:29

that Plan B is equivalent to an abortion,

1:26:31

even in cases of rape. The survivor consented

1:26:33

to having the urine test and we waited

1:26:36

approximately 90 minutes. The nurse returned with other

1:26:38

medications. The nurse returned with other medications. antibiotics

1:26:40

as infectious disease prophylaxis. The survivor asked about

1:26:42

the plan B since it wasn't discussed. The

1:26:45

nurse said that she actually lost the survivor's

1:26:47

urine so the test wasn't run and the

1:26:49

nurse actually had the prescription for plan B

1:26:52

from the doctor. At this point, it's 6

1:26:54

a.m. the survivor, her boyfriend and I have

1:26:56

been together in the emergency room for six

1:26:58

hours. The survivor and I were understandably pissed.

1:27:01

The survivor said, well, I will give you

1:27:03

more urine for another test. I'm not leaving

1:27:05

here without the medication. She turned to me

1:27:07

and told me I was free to go

1:27:10

since it would be another hour at least

1:27:12

of waiting. I chose to say, I chose

1:27:14

to say since I wanted the nurse to

1:27:17

know that this was important to every person

1:27:19

in that room. The survivor's boyfriend left to

1:27:21

go get her something to drink for McDonald's

1:27:23

so she could create another urine sample. Then

1:27:26

a half hour she handed off the room,

1:27:28

left to go get her something to drink

1:27:30

for McDonald's so she could create another urine

1:27:33

sample. Within a half hour she had been

1:27:35

discharged and was discharged and was free to

1:27:37

be discharged and was free to be discharged

1:27:39

and was free to go. This woman had

1:27:42

come to the hospital to start a process

1:27:44

of evidence collection and reporting through the criminal

1:27:46

legal system and trusted that these institutions would

1:27:48

be fair and offer her a chance for

1:27:51

justice and give back her some semblance of

1:27:53

autonomy and physical safety, and yet the Catholic

1:27:55

hospital used its own beliefs to determine what

1:27:58

a care a woman could receive. Hi. If

1:28:00

you're watching a video, I just changed outfits

1:28:02

and rooms, but I was editing this back

1:28:04

and realized in trying to get through

1:28:06

stories and not provide my commentary, I

1:28:09

didn't give context for why I read

1:28:11

a Catholic hospital story. And I want to

1:28:13

read another email from Beth, GEDY, and

1:28:15

a person that's done, like clinical research

1:28:17

on Catholic hospitals. So I'm not speaking

1:28:20

out of turn, because I know some of

1:28:22

you have had very positive experiences at them,

1:28:24

and it is a some not all thing. And we

1:28:26

just heard two stories that. were different examples

1:28:29

because the first one, the first story

1:28:31

we heard, she had a DNC at

1:28:33

a Catholic hospital, it sounds like, because

1:28:35

she talked about her discomfort with

1:28:37

a priest and burial process, but also

1:28:39

mentioned that she was given options at

1:28:42

the onset. And the second story

1:28:44

was 10 years ago, but was

1:28:46

an example of how in a

1:28:48

Catholic hospital, inexplicably in a way that

1:28:50

defies science and what we know to

1:28:52

be true about Plan B because all

1:28:55

Plan B is nowhere close to an

1:28:57

abortion. plan B just simply delays ovulation

1:28:59

it wouldn't allow an egg to fertilize

1:29:01

like it's just scientifically not an abortion

1:29:04

it's it's preventing a pregnancy it's the

1:29:06

same issue with contraception like it's nuts

1:29:08

that a person and not dramatic of

1:29:10

a situation was made to wait that long

1:29:12

and they weren't willing to give it

1:29:14

at the hospital freely unless they first

1:29:17

made sure she's not I mean it's

1:29:19

it's disgusting the reason I wanted people

1:29:21

to include Catholic hospital anecdotes is because

1:29:23

forever Kind of under the radar, they're

1:29:26

basically acting as a proxy for what

1:29:28

states already do and will look like with

1:29:30

more and more abortion restrictions because

1:29:32

Catholic hospitals are supposed to

1:29:34

expect it to follow what are called

1:29:36

ERD's ethical and religious directives for Catholic

1:29:39

health services, which prohibit contraception,

1:29:41

serialization, abortion, most fertility treatments,

1:29:43

and other services. However, the

1:29:46

way these are implemented seemed based

1:29:48

on listener anecdotes alone seemed to

1:29:50

very hospital to hospital. and many

1:29:52

providers are motivated by patient needs

1:29:54

and they will develop and use

1:29:57

work around in Catholic systems and

1:29:59

some hospitals. administrators and hospital leaders will

1:30:01

endorse these workarounds, others not. I think

1:30:03

why this kind of went under their

1:30:05

radar. I mean, I didn't even understand

1:30:07

that I had an abortion when my

1:30:09

ectopic was medically terminated until I got

1:30:12

a bill. I didn't even know to

1:30:14

call it that. And Christie Teagans kind

1:30:16

of talked about this too. I don't

1:30:18

think there was a lot of understanding

1:30:20

that the exact same procedures and medications

1:30:22

are used in induced abortions and miscarriage

1:30:24

management or emergency pregnancy complication situations. And

1:30:26

so I think when women were in

1:30:28

Catholic hospitals, they maybe didn't even understand

1:30:31

they were being given limited options. Because

1:30:33

when I had my topic, I started

1:30:35

receiving ads about an ethical remedy for

1:30:37

an ectopic pregnancy. And I clicked on

1:30:39

it. I was like an ethical remedy.

1:30:41

Like, what's ethical? You have to terminate.

1:30:43

It's going to kill you. So I

1:30:45

have a screenshot July 3, 2021. I

1:30:47

got an ad from the National Catholic

1:30:50

Register. So they pay. for people that

1:30:52

I guess are googling keywords about ectopic

1:30:54

pregnancies about abortions to target people taking

1:30:56

proper medical recourse when they have an

1:30:58

unviable pregnancy. I was being targeted with

1:31:00

ads about how I should feel like

1:31:02

guilt and shame and repentance for being

1:31:04

medically, basically forced. I mean, I wasn't

1:31:06

really given options. It wasn't, do you,

1:31:09

when I was in the ER, it

1:31:11

wasn't, do you want to terminate this

1:31:13

pregnancy? There is a 100% fatality rate

1:31:15

with the location and in terms of

1:31:17

its unviability, and it would, I mean,

1:31:19

have likely killed me had I let

1:31:21

it get to that point, unmanaged. I'm

1:31:23

going to click to the edge, solicited

1:31:25