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That's shipstation.com

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slash audio. Too often black

1:42

women are a mere afterthought

1:45

in conversations around wellness, but

1:47

not in this space. On

1:49

this podcast, the dialogue is

1:51

always centered around women like

1:53

you. Welcome to the podcast,

1:56

but more importantly, welcome to

1:58

the tribe. Be well. April

2:05

is Stress Awareness Month and

2:07

most of us don't need

2:09

a calendar to know that we're

2:11

stressed. We are living it, we are

2:13

breathing it, and maybe we're tired. But

2:15

what happens when the stress

2:17

doesn't look like chaos or

2:20

collapse? What happens when it wears

2:22

pearls, it means deadlines, it shows

2:24

up on time, and still

2:26

feels like something is unraveling

2:28

inside? Hello, hello, and welcome

2:30

back to the Beewelles podcast. I

2:33

am your host, Dr. Cassandra Dunbar.

2:35

Today, we are joined by none

2:37

other than Dr. Judith Joseph, who

2:39

is a brilliant psychiatrist, researcher, and

2:41

advocate, and she's giving us language

2:44

as to what so many of

2:46

us are living through, high

2:48

functioning depression. In this conversation,

2:50

we unpack what high-functioning

2:52

depression looks like, the

2:55

impact of trauma and

2:57

societal pressures on our

2:59

emotional well-being, and how

3:01

to reclaim the joy,

3:03

softness, and self-connection through

3:05

what she calls the

3:07

five-ves to thriving. And if

3:09

this episode resonates with you...

3:11

and you find yourself naughty along

3:14

and whispering, well dang, that's me.

3:16

I want you to do two

3:18

things. Please go ahead and leave

3:20

a five-star rating on Apple or

3:22

Spotify. If you are watching along

3:24

on YouTube, go ahead and subscribe

3:26

and give us a thumbs up.

3:29

And also send this episode to

3:31

a friend so many of us

3:33

can see ourselves. in the pictures

3:35

that she paints. So share with

3:37

her friend, share with her sister,

3:39

a neighbor, somebody who can use

3:41

this, and I know you know

3:43

somebody. So go ahead and

3:45

grab a cup of coffee or

3:47

a cup of tea or something

3:49

a little bit stronger, I won't

3:51

judge. And let's get into it.

3:53

As always, thank you so much

3:55

for joining. I am so, so

3:58

glad you're here. Be Wellsis. Before

4:00

we start, I always like to

4:02

ask my guests, especially my guests

4:05

who are health care providers and

4:07

who are whose job, whose task

4:09

is to care for people. How

4:12

are you feeling PMS in this

4:14

moment? So physically, mentally, and

4:16

spiritually, how are you doing?

4:19

I'm feeling great. Physically, I worked

4:21

out this morning, mentally, I pray

4:23

every day, and you know, psychologically

4:26

and spiritually. I am

4:28

grateful. I'm practicing gratitude every day. I

4:30

love that. Thank you for asking. I

4:32

love that. So I'm very familiar with

4:34

your work online. I love how you

4:37

present mental health in a... With your

4:39

pain by busying yourself in an effort

4:41

to avoid dealing with your pain. And

4:43

what if you're not someone who necessarily

4:46

acknowledges or validates how they feel

4:48

so they're not saying that they're

4:50

insignificant distress? Well, these are

4:52

people who don't get help. they don't

4:54

check the boxes. And so what their

4:57

doctor or their therapist will tell them

4:59

is, you know, come back when you break

5:01

down, which I think is a flawed

5:03

model. And I wanted to support people

5:05

like myself, who are the rock,

5:07

who are the entrepreneur, who are

5:09

the single mom, who are the

5:11

health care professionals taking care of

5:13

others, you know, who wear this

5:15

mask of pathological productivity without actually

5:18

recognizing that, you know, they need

5:20

support. So I wanted to create

5:22

a model. that addresses and supports

5:24

these individuals who are high functioning

5:27

but still struggling. Yeah, absolutely. And

5:29

I always reference the fact that

5:31

oftentimes like when I'm looking on

5:34

social media or even just talking

5:36

to people in real life, people

5:38

are just like, yo, adulting really

5:40

sucks. And what I find is

5:43

that a lot of us are doing all

5:45

the things that you just mentioned here.

5:47

I find that A lot of us

5:49

are here, especially post-pandemic. Do

5:52

you feel that like the

5:54

pandemic and or the current

5:56

social political climate adds to

5:59

this at all? In my research, I

6:01

found that trauma is a risk factor

6:03

and there's something called collective trauma where

6:05

you may not have something directly happened

6:08

to you alone, but you go through

6:10

it as a community or as a

6:12

society and the, you know, what happened

6:14

in 2020 was a collective trauma. And

6:17

then, you know, typically after a trauma

6:19

to have the best outcome, right after

6:21

the trauma happens, you're told that it's

6:24

not your fault, you're put in a

6:26

safe environment. you stick to a routine.

6:28

Well, we all didn't have that because

6:31

after what happened, there was, you know,

6:33

resurgence of a different variant than there

6:35

were police brutality and images put out

6:37

there that we can't unsee. And then

6:40

there were like political uprisings, you know,

6:42

natural disasters, climate change. It's just like

6:44

war, you know, pain, devastation. And I

6:47

describe it in my book as this

6:49

wave of trauma that we just didn't

6:51

even have a chance to catch our

6:54

breaths in between. And so when you

6:56

don't acknowledge these traumas and you just

6:58

push through it and you're told to,

7:00

okay, well, onto the next, you may

7:03

become numb. And what happens is that

7:05

when you numb, it's a coping mechanism

7:07

so that you don't have to feel

7:10

triggered or be put into fight or

7:12

flight. But after a while that numbing

7:14

can look like an anhedonia, which is...

7:17

a lack of pleasure and interest in

7:19

things. So you just become kind of

7:21

blunted and muted. And because you're trying

7:23

to push down the pain and not

7:26

feel it, you're also pushing down the

7:28

capacity to feel joy. So when I

7:30

started doing this research, I really wanted

7:33

to make sure that I accounted for

7:35

trauma, I accounted for that thing called

7:37

anhedonia, which a lot of people don't

7:40

know about, which I'm trying to change.

7:42

So they understand that going through the

7:44

motions and feeling blah or blah is

7:46

not something that we should accept and

7:49

be okay with. A lack of joy

7:51

in life is a problem. It may

7:53

not look like a crisis, but it

7:56

is a problem. And many of us

7:58

with high-functioning depression are walking. around numb

8:00

me and blah and don't even

8:02

know what anhedonia is.

8:05

Yeah, now that we've named it and

8:07

we know what caused it, what

8:09

can we do to move

8:11

forward? Yeah, it's important to

8:13

understand how you got here

8:15

and there's something that,

8:17

you know, I call validation

8:19

in my book, right, like

8:22

accepting how you feel, acknowledging

8:24

it, and it's important to do

8:26

that because there... is a term in

8:28

psychology called affect labeling, where if

8:30

you don't know how you feel,

8:33

the confusion and the uncertainty creates

8:35

anxiety for you. And think about

8:37

human beings. We don't like to be

8:39

in situations that are uncertain. We like

8:41

to know what's happening. So being able

8:43

to acknowledge and name the feeling,

8:45

like saying out loud, I have

8:47

anhedonia or I'm experiencing anedonia. That

8:49

is very powerful because it decreases

8:52

the amount of uncertainty, and it

8:54

is a therapeutic act in itself.

8:56

And so what I do is I

8:58

take my readers through the five V's

9:00

to thriving, and the first is validation,

9:02

because many of us don't acknowledge how

9:04

we feel in the day. We'll sit and

9:06

we'll eat our lunch in front of our

9:09

screens and not even taste it. We'll

9:11

work through Zoom meetings and not even

9:13

use the bathroom, although we're feeling that

9:16

pain in our belly saying, you

9:18

gotta go, right? We invalidate all

9:20

the time. And so in order to

9:22

acknowledge that you're a human being, you

9:24

first have to validate and accept how

9:26

you feel. And the second step is venting,

9:28

and venting is expressing how you feel,

9:31

and that could be done in many

9:33

different ways you can talk about it,

9:35

but not everyone's comfortable with

9:38

verbal expression, especially if you're a

9:40

neurodivergent. You can write about it,

9:42

like in journaling. You can sing

9:44

your feelings, or express how you

9:46

feel or your experiences with music.

9:48

You can dance, you can use art. Even

9:50

crying is a form of expressing

9:53

your feeling. So, you know, I

9:55

put tools in there for people

9:57

to express because not

9:59

everyone... one has that language, no

10:01

pun intended. And then the third V

10:03

is values. These are things that

10:05

are priceless and not with price tags.

10:08

And if you were in my office, you'd see

10:10

like a gazillion degrees. I used to chase the achievements,

10:12

you know, the cloud, but that's not what's going

10:14

to leave me feeling full and fed. That's not going

10:16

to give my life meaning at the end of

10:18

the day when, you know, I'm in my last days

10:20

on this earth. I'm not going to say I

10:22

wish I got a JD on top of the MDMBA,

10:24

right? I'm going to say, I wish I had

10:26

five more minutes with my daughter. I wish I had,

10:29

you know, seen that sunset

10:31

in Hawaii again, you know, like things

10:33

like that are important. I wish I had

10:35

poured into my community more, you know,

10:37

and help people more. Those are the things

10:39

that give me meaning and purpose, you

10:41

know, not the things with the price

10:43

tags, but many of us chase that.

10:45

We think that if we have the house,

10:47

the man, the car, the career, that that's

10:49

what happiness is, but we're wrong. And then

10:52

the fourth V is vitals. These are things

10:54

that your doctor will tell you to do

10:56

that are kind of boring, right?

10:58

Getting good sleep, getting good movement, eating

11:00

foods that nourish your brain and body that

11:02

aren't processed. But there are three

11:04

non -traditional vitals that I put

11:07

in there that your doctor should be

11:09

asking about. This is your relationship with

11:11

people because your relationships are the number

11:13

one predictor your longevity and your health

11:15

outcomes. And I don't think many people

11:17

know that or else we wouldn't stay

11:19

in these toxic relationships or these toxic

11:21

workplaces. And then, you know, the second non

11:24

-traditional vital is your relationship

11:26

with technology, which I believe

11:28

is going to determine a whole

11:30

set of mental health conditions in

11:32

the future. I think technology and

11:34

how it impacts mental health will

11:36

have its own classification one day. And

11:38

then your relationship with your work.

11:40

People with high functioning depression have

11:42

really poor work -life boundaries. You

11:45

know, just because they leave the workplace doesn't mean that they

11:47

shut off their brain from work. They cannot, they

11:49

literally cannot unplug. And

11:51

then the fifth V is vision. How

11:54

do you plan joy in the future so that you

11:56

don't get stuck in the past? And

11:58

this is celebrating your wins. big or

12:00

small. And when I say future, I

12:02

don't mean 10 years or a week

12:04

from now. I mean literally planning joy

12:06

today. So, you know, this morning after

12:08

I got my kid to school and

12:10

I got to work on time, sitting

12:13

at my desk and drinking my coffee

12:15

in peace. That is a joy and

12:17

I'm celebrating my win, right? Having something

12:19

to keep you moving forward helps

12:21

you feel unstuck. And for high

12:23

functioning folks, it's very tempting to

12:26

be like I want to do all the

12:28

fiveies at once. I say. In my research

12:30

lab, we will very rarely use the

12:32

word happy on a scale, on a

12:34

rating scale, to measure someone's

12:36

joy. But what we will measure are

12:38

things like, after you ate, did you

12:40

savor your food? When you connected with

12:43

a loved one, did you feel connected?

12:45

Did you feel like you were really

12:47

present? When you took a nap,

12:49

did you feel rested and refreshed? Those

12:51

are the points of joy. that make

12:53

up happiness. But when a client comes

12:55

to the private practice, they'll say, I

12:57

just want to be happy. And when

12:59

I ask what happiness is, they'll say,

13:01

oh, it's when I get that career, when I

13:04

get that house, when I get that thing.

13:06

But the research shows that happiness is an

13:08

idea or an ideal, and joy is an

13:10

experience. So try to get as many points

13:12

of joy in a day. And that will make you

13:14

overall happier. That is so much packed

13:17

in there, what you just said. When you

13:19

were saying just to do one V at

13:21

a time, you already read my mind because

13:23

I was like, I'm gonna do all these

13:25

things. Like, I mean, get them done by

13:27

next week. All the V's are gonna

13:29

be checked, because yes, I also fall

13:32

to the category. I very much

13:34

identify with being like high

13:36

functioning in terms of my depression.

13:38

And I think, too, about people

13:40

who have a. like poor relationships

13:42

with their work and just were

13:45

constantly working and constantly striving for

13:47

like the next achievement within their

13:49

workspace. It's so hard in the

13:51

society that we live in to

13:53

have better relationships with work, you

13:55

know, especially when we're talking about

13:58

today. The recession is here. and

14:00

people's works are not like their

14:02

job security is like nil for

14:04

most of us right and just

14:06

in general even outside of this

14:08

present moment that we're living in

14:10

just our society is very much

14:12

like collect the degrees and collect

14:14

the accolades and that is what

14:16

makes you quote valuable, right? Especially

14:18

if you come from a marginalized

14:20

community, if you are a black

14:22

woman, the joke is that, you

14:24

know, whenever we get bored, we

14:26

get in with another degree. I

14:28

think because it's been instilled in

14:30

us, like, you know, you're valuable.

14:32

If you're achieving something in addition

14:34

to what you already done, or

14:36

that's where you'll get your happiness

14:38

from, like to your point, we

14:41

don't know to seek that joy

14:43

and that happiness within, it's always

14:45

external. And that's to keep the

14:47

machine going. How do we even

14:49

just like deprogram our minds from

14:51

this? How do we like even

14:53

start to unwind or just undo

14:55

that, that learning? There's only going

14:57

to ever be one you. and

14:59

there's only going to be ever

15:01

be one me like ever in

15:03

the future of the universe and

15:05

the history of the universe. So

15:07

when you're listening to this, know

15:09

that there is only one you

15:11

you're here for a reason, right?

15:13

The chances of you even being

15:15

in existence, they're just so tiny.

15:17

So you're here for a reason,

15:19

right? The chances of you even

15:21

being in existence, they're just so

15:23

tiny. how to understand the science

15:25

of their happiness. And when you

15:27

use the model in my book,

15:29

the biosecococial model, what you'll realize

15:31

is that biologically as women, especially

15:33

black women, you're going to have

15:35

more risk factors than others because

15:37

biologically, you're likely going to go

15:40

through perimeniposa menopause sooner. You're going

15:42

to be at risk for certain

15:44

conditions. compared to other groups, you

15:46

know, psychologically, black people have higher

15:48

rates of PTSD and trauma, right?

15:50

And we know that there are

15:52

different types of trauma, and I

15:54

put the trauma inventory in my

15:56

book that explains things like being

15:58

rejected because of the way you

16:00

look, because of your background, and

16:02

so forth. So understand, you know,

16:04

what your traumas are, and also

16:06

understand your attachment style. And then

16:08

social wise, what is your environment

16:10

like? You know, throughout the country...

16:12

We tend to have less access

16:14

to nature. We tend to have

16:16

more access to unprocessed foods and

16:18

unhealthy foods. You know, and then

16:20

socially, like, we have more microaggressions

16:22

in the workplace. We just have

16:24

a lot more going on. You

16:26

know, so when you understand the

16:28

biosekets social model based on the

16:30

science of your happiness, then you

16:32

understand the things that are taking

16:34

away from your happiness that are

16:36

making you unhappy. Yeah. And so

16:39

if you know from a trauma

16:41

standpoint, psychological standpoint. that historically, maybe

16:43

if you realize that you are

16:45

not enough, unless you have a

16:47

gazillion degrees, because you have to

16:49

prove yourself more, then you are

16:51

aware of that. So maybe having

16:53

that knowledge will allow you to

16:55

slow down and not take on

16:57

that extra job, that extra project,

16:59

that extra side hustle, because you

17:01

don't have anything to prove, right?

17:03

And then socially, maybe if you

17:05

realize that you don't have access

17:07

to certain things that other populations

17:09

have, then you'll make it a

17:11

priority to... go for a walk,

17:13

you know, in a park or

17:15

go get that farm-to-table food rather

17:17

than, you know, eating processed foods.

17:19

You know, you'll do certain things

17:21

to improve your points of joy

17:23

and your chances of obtaining happiness

17:25

because you finally understand the science

17:27

of your happiness. That's why I

17:29

put those tools in the book

17:31

because I want everyone to have

17:33

access to this. You know. People

17:35

thought, wow, she hasn't figured out.

17:37

In fact, I was getting so

17:40

many DMs like. Can you help

17:42

me? I want to be like

17:44

you? And I'm like, if people

17:46

only knew, right? So like, I

17:48

thought, why am I like putting

17:50

on this facade? Let me just

17:52

try to understand what's happening in

17:54

me. And I was literally at

17:56

a desk giving a talk to

17:58

a major health system in 2020,

18:00

to these doctors and nurses and

18:02

health care professionals who were like,

18:04

you know, I don't know what

18:06

to do. Like I'm seeing so

18:08

much devastation. I feel like I'm

18:10

having so much devastation. Wait a

18:12

second. I think I'm depressed, you

18:14

know, but no one would know

18:16

because on the outside I was

18:18

like on TV talking about you

18:20

know mental health and like my

18:22

professional life I had just gotten

18:24

onto this prestigious board and an

18:26

Ivy League institution where I was

18:28

like leading it and I'm like

18:30

Running this business these businesses having

18:32

these employees and teams and they

18:34

depend on me for their salaries

18:36

and conducting these this research small

18:39

child at home husband at the

18:41

time, who was a frontline worker

18:43

and no one knew that I

18:45

was struggling. So I thought, well,

18:47

if I'm struggling, I wonder how

18:49

many people are like me. And

18:51

I was teaching this course at

18:53

NYU that I developed over 10

18:55

years ago where I teach doctors

18:57

how to give press interviews so

18:59

that they go on the news

19:01

and they talk about like a

19:03

new infection or a bacteria, they

19:05

have to be able to relate

19:07

to the public. So I teach

19:09

them how to talk to regular

19:11

people, you know. And they were

19:13

saying, well... No one's watching the

19:15

news or they're using social media.

19:17

So can you teach us how

19:19

to use socials? So all this

19:21

was happening at the same time.

19:23

And I was like, well, I

19:25

need to learn how to use

19:27

social to actually teach them how

19:29

to use social. So I started

19:31

creating reals and testing the waters

19:33

and saying, let me see if

19:35

I could create reals about what

19:37

I'm seeing in my research on

19:40

high functional depression to see if

19:42

it resonates with people. And like

19:44

that video was seen like over

19:46

20 million times. How is it

19:48

that this is not a real

19:50

condition, but it's very real for

19:52

so many people, it's not just

19:54

me? And that's how I really

19:56

wanted to do this work. Like

19:58

I really wanted to understand. and

20:00

what this type of depression looked

20:02

like, you know, what was behind

20:04

it, you know, hypothesize about, you

20:06

know, is it related to trauma,

20:08

is it related to people pleasing,

20:10

you know, does it have high

20:12

rates of anhedonia? And so that

20:14

really, you know, all happened at

20:16

once, it was a lot of

20:18

synergy, and that's why I wrote

20:20

the book, because I want people

20:22

to feel seen, I want them

20:24

to have access to... evidence-based ways

20:26

to heal and to understand the

20:28

science of your happiness because you

20:30

deserve that. Curiosity is a love

20:32

language. Learning about you and knowing

20:34

you, that is the ultimate act

20:36

of self-love. So you don't have

20:39

to get the Manny Petty, which

20:41

I mean, I have no problem

20:43

with that. Those are important too.

20:45

But start with the inner work,

20:47

you know, because that's what is

20:49

sustainable. That's going to last you

20:51

a lifetime. And when people pick

20:53

up on your... self-love and you

20:55

knowing who you are, they're going

20:57

to want a part of that.

20:59

And I experienced that. People are

21:01

like, there's something about you. It's

21:03

just different. Like I want that.

21:05

So I put that in this

21:07

book and I hope that people

21:09

do find themselves and they heal

21:11

and they understand what makes them

21:13

so special. So they understand why

21:15

they are here, you know, that

21:17

they belong here for a reason.

21:19

Yes, yes. Well, I love that.

21:23

So we talked a lot about joy

21:25

today and understanding what gives us joy

21:28

individually. So what's been bringing you joy

21:30

these past couple of days or weeks?

21:32

Well I'm one of four children so

21:35

I've always been around people and I

21:37

can look at all the times in

21:39

my life when I was the most

21:42

unhappy and it was when I didn't

21:44

have connections to people and so what

21:46

brings me joy is connecting to my

21:48

siblings. We're on a group chat. We

21:51

chat every day. I'm one of those

21:53

like people that actually likes their siblings,

21:55

you know, like we get a... And

21:58

then I have a team that I

22:00

work with in my lab. Most therapists

22:02

work alone and they're in silos. I

22:05

knew early on in my career that

22:07

that would not make me happy. In

22:09

fact, I started a private practice on

22:11

my own and I was miserable. And

22:14

so I wanted to have a team

22:16

that I look forward to seeing every

22:18

day and work with every day.

22:20

And we do really interesting research here.

22:23

We're doing psychedelic research right now actually

22:25

looking at depression. And my family. I

22:27

love my daughter. She's literally.

22:29

light of my life, like the real, like

22:31

she is the ultimate point of joy. And

22:34

so connecting to people that I love makes

22:36

me happy. And I know that, you know,

22:38

my sister on the other hand, she

22:40

likes for me time and I have no

22:43

problem with that, but I'm not that person.

22:45

I know what makes me, I understand the

22:47

science of my happiness. For a long time

22:49

I tried to fight it. Because I

22:51

was reading all these self-help books like, you

22:54

should be happy on your own. And that's

22:56

like, for me, that's a load of BS,

22:58

because I can't. I need people in my

23:01

life. And I'm so, I was so happy

23:03

when that study came out with the

23:05

longevity that was published at Harvard,

23:07

where it's like, relationships are the

23:09

reason that you're unhappy. You need

23:11

healthy relationships. And then the Surgeon

23:14

General came out with the loneliness

23:16

is like smoking a pack of

23:18

cigarettes a day, right. Right. Right. When you

23:20

see what you experience in the research and

23:23

it's proven, that is a form of validation.

23:25

I talk about that in my book. So

23:27

it was important for me to conduct

23:29

this research so that people felt seen,

23:31

so that they don't think that their

23:33

experience is like a one-off. No. Like,

23:35

this is real. What you're experiencing

23:38

is real, and now here's something that you

23:40

can do about it. Yeah. Thank you, thank

23:42

you, thank you, thank you so much for

23:44

your time, Dr. Joseph. This was such a

23:46

great, great conversation. Of course, I'm gonna add

23:48

the link to buy the book in the

23:50

show notes, but where can the people find

23:52

you? Well, thank you for having me. You

23:54

can find me at Dr. Judith Joseph

23:57

on all the socials and Dr.

23:59

Judith Joseph.com. about my book and there

24:01

are tons of bonuses if you buy

24:03

it. if you buy it. awesome, awesome. awesome. Thank you for

24:05

you for listening to this episode of

24:07

B. Wellsis. If If you'd like to get

24:09

in touch with us, there's a link

24:11

in the show notes. link in Well Sis

24:13

is hosted by me, Dr. is Dunbar, and

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produced by Edit Audio. Don't

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