0:02

think one thing that came as a surprise

0:04

to us when doing the research

0:06

was the tend to which people use

0:09

bitcoin only as a conduit to

0:11

the US dollar and not as a means

0:13

into itself because the community was very focused

0:16

on bitcoin and they wanted people to succeed, and they

0:18

they held it for themselves, of course, they wanted

0:20

its appreciation. But

0:23

I think the majority of Venezuelans were trading

0:25

local bitcoins, for example. Some

0:27

of them believe Bitcoin and cap

0:28

Bitcoin, but the ability to hold dollars

0:31

was much dearer. You're

0:35

listening to because of Bitcoin, a

0:37

podcast that shares the personal stories of

0:39

how Bitcoin is having a real impact in

0:41

people's lives, including mine, your

0:43

host, Mauricio Di Arturo Meo, the Co

0:45

Founder and CSO of Lenin. And without

0:48

further ado, let's get started with today's

0:50

story.

0:58

There's a reason that Venezuela ranks

1:00

at the top of most crypto adoption charts

1:02

and that is because our local money

1:04

is broken. And money breaks

1:07

all the time In fact, it's currently

1:09

breaking in Nigeria and in Lebanon. The

1:12

process whereby money breaks is actually

1:14

very similar across these seemingly

1:16

different cultures And as Kirschm law

1:18

says, good money drives out bad

1:20

money. People in these situations

1:23

end up Bettering to the next best currency

1:25

that's available to

1:25

them. And most times that ends up being

1:28

the US dollar. But since Bitcoin's inception,

1:30

more and more people across the world have found it

1:32

and come to

1:33

it. If we want more people

1:35

to find Bitcoin and to continue to use it,

1:37

we need to better understand why and how

1:39

they're using it. The open money initiative

1:42

carried out research on the ground in places

1:44

like Venezuela and other countries to find

1:46

out how real people were using bitcoin. And

1:48

its findings are incredibly in Cypical.

1:51

Alejandro Machado one of the project's cofounders

1:53

and he's joining me today to discuss his findings

1:56

and what we can learn from them. Al

1:58

and I actually are both from Venezuela and

2:00

are part of the more than six point

2:02

one million people that have left the country

2:04

since authoritarianism took

2:06

over. I was keen to learn about his

2:08

decision to leave how he found Bitcoin

2:10

and the research project that brought him back.

2:14

Okay. I'll let my friend. So

2:16

good to see you again. How are you, man? Likewise,

2:19

man. All good. All good. I always

2:21

like to start the show by asking people

2:24

to tell us a little bit about

2:26

your childhood. What were some

2:28

of your favorite memories growing

2:30

up in Venezuela.

2:32

You grew up in Bakizimeta, grew up in Valencia.

2:35

They're not so far away. So I think what

2:37

I most remember from my childhood is always

2:39

being involved in communities be it, you know, the

2:41

school that I went to or

2:43

the family that I grew up in that was

2:46

big and we, like, the extended family, usually

2:48

got together for Parillas, which is

2:51

barbecues. My grandpa would

2:53

would be kind of the the captain of the

2:55

of the Parillas, and then we would all meet

2:57

at at his place. The

3:00

fact that the

3:02

collapse of Venezuela was

3:04

not something that we anticipated.

3:07

But we we did leave Venezuela in

3:10

twenty eleven, which was relatively early.

3:13

Compared to, like, the last wave of migration

3:15

that that happened that actually made

3:17

Venezuela into one of the the top

3:19

countries where people migrate

3:22

from. All all we could, you know,

3:24

plan for a dream about was staying in Venezuela.

3:27

No one really wanted to leave. Some some of my uncles

3:29

left. For, you know, school, like, they went

3:31

to grad school or or they did some

3:33

NBA program here or there, but then they always

3:35

wanted to come back and they did. We we never

3:37

really expected to leave until

3:39

things started getting really really

3:42

tough.

3:44

It's it's it's it's very unfortunate. I

3:46

think people lose sight on how

3:48

how little Venice lands ever thought about migration.

3:50

My when we left to go to Miami,

3:53

we were so young, my brothers and my brothers

3:55

and I, that my parents didn't even

3:57

tell us we were moving. They told us

3:59

we were going to spend the summer. And

4:01

this was this was actually we went in

4:03

ninety nine, which was right after Chavez took

4:06

office. But I I distinctly remember

4:09

the conversations around my school, the conversations

4:11

around my family, around the time when

4:13

Travis took

4:14

power, and Do you remember

4:16

that that period of time? Like,

4:19

did that have any impact in your family

4:21

or your personal life?

4:23

I remember very

4:25

faintly the fact that no one in my family

4:27

liked us and or at

4:29

least no one that I that I knew really well.

4:32

I'm sure that we had decent relatives that

4:34

were into it. But I

4:36

remember their disappointment during

4:39

the election night when when Chavez won

4:41

that election. But I was a kid.

4:44

Like, I I didn't realize, you

4:46

know, the obviously, the implications of that one

4:48

one was actually realizing the whole impact

4:50

of it. But I do remember

4:52

that the mood was not great that

4:55

that Christmas. And then I think what

4:57

what I do remember right after that was

4:59

attending demonstrations, I

5:01

guess, Chavez in the in the coming years. Like, when

5:03

I was twelve years old, I went to demonstrations.

5:06

That's actually, like, it's funny,

5:08

like, you you would that's around the time where you

5:11

start having interesting girls. And

5:13

you go to a Machado, to a drama demonstration,

5:16

and and you know, look around

5:18

and see girls from outside your school

5:21

to to to, like, see what's out there.

5:23

And and, you know, you

5:25

you had this, like, little like, mini

5:28

dates at

5:29

demonstrations, which is a bit

5:31

funny. But yeah.

5:34

It's funny you mentioned that because protests

5:36

were so commonplace in Venezuela

5:39

that they did I remember they

5:41

became social events So

5:43

my brother actually met his wife out

5:45

of protest. Oh, there you go. Well,

5:49

what at what point did

5:51

you make the decision to leave

5:54

Venezuela? And was that decision that you made

5:56

by yourself or was that family decision?

5:59

Well, so In twenty eleven,

6:01

I was starting my fourth year

6:04

of university, and there

6:06

was the option to do it abroad. Think

6:09

it was a bit burnt out from Venezuela protests,

6:12

like uncertainty, the fact that you couldn't

6:14

go out without your parents frantically

6:16

call you every fifteen minutes to see if you were

6:19

arriving home around

6:21

the same time that I that I was eyeing

6:23

the decision of going abroad, but

6:25

it was only for for a year. Right? Like, a year

6:28

tops. My parents were also

6:30

considering that I think they were

6:32

starting to see the writing on the world that

6:34

the university where I was

6:36

studying, already was losing teachers,

6:39

and I already was becoming

6:42

a bit less competitive academically.

6:44

And you could see, like,

6:48

oh, obviously, is getting more authoritarian. Things

6:51

didn't really spell very good

6:53

fortune for for the future, like the immediate

6:55

future of the country. And I I have two

6:57

younger siblings. They're twins at their

6:59

same age, seven years younger, my parents

7:02

I think saw that they couldn't

7:04

get through college the same way

7:06

that I could with with all of the things that

7:08

I did. So they they said, well,

7:11

let's try. We we have Spanish citizenship

7:13

from my grandparents because my

7:15

from my mom's side, we are Spanish. Since

7:17

I was going to Sweden, I think

7:20

they also did similar thing to to

7:22

your family where they said, well, let's let's

7:24

go check this plays out. And let's

7:26

see if this can be a place for my

7:28

siblings in in this case to go

7:31

to university or like to finish school first. That

7:33

they they had couple of years to get through still

7:36

and then to to go to university

7:39

and then to develop in the professional world.

7:41

So I think that was

7:44

that that's kind of the motivation. Or

7:46

it was it was it was a family decision

7:48

but pushed by factors like

7:51

the situation of the country was kind

7:53

of already pushing us out in a in a way.

7:58

Migration is a very very difficult

8:00

process. This. Actively deciding

8:02

that you have to leave your whole family behind

8:05

and the place you grew up in is almost

8:07

like losing a loved one. It's understandable

8:09

why Alejandro's parents made the decision to

8:11

leave. Caracas at the time had the

8:13

unenviable title of being the most

8:16

violent city in the world.

8:21

Where in this journey? Because you're talking about twenty

8:23

eleven and and bitcoin was really only two years

8:25

old at the time.

8:27

When when do you find out about

8:29

Bitcoin? What were your first impressions?

8:31

So I also have this faint memory of

8:34

reading about Bitcoin on happenings. I

8:36

studied computer science. And, of course, I

8:38

was very much into Hacker News. I

8:40

I was reading a timeline from,

8:42

like, a like a Twitter account that summarize

8:45

and, like or, like, you know, gave gave the

8:48

highlights of the most highly rated

8:50

or the the most, like, you know, highly commented

8:52

articles, and and I think I saw the white

8:54

paper then, didn't think much of it at the time.

8:56

I was involved in artificial

8:58

intelligence. I think

9:01

maybe around twenty

9:03

sixteen or twenty seventeen, I

9:05

started to get more

9:07

interested because I think

9:09

we had already seen very

9:12

high inflation in that period. The

9:14

sales currency became very quickly devalued.

9:17

I think what what struck me was I already

9:19

knew that, like, bitcoin was a

9:21

thing. Like, I I knew that you could

9:23

hold money electronically

9:26

and not have a bank account. Right? Like, you you

9:28

if you own a computer, if you have a

9:30

piece of hardware

9:33

that has processor and has a memory

9:35

and is connected to the Internet, then

9:38

you can have this asset that

9:40

can transfer to other people

9:42

and there is a market for this asset. I

9:44

never really made the connection between

9:46

this ability and the

9:50

conditions that we were in or that have been as well as

9:52

in the fact that we

9:55

Like, everyone was craving for the

9:57

US dollar, but they're they had no way

10:00

to access accounts

10:02

abroad, like most of the people. Right? Like some

10:04

people had accounts elsewhere,

10:06

but I think when I

10:09

made the connection and this was around twenty

10:11

sixteen or twenty seventeen that there's

10:13

this thing that anyone with

10:15

a computer can have and it

10:17

can transfer, and nobody

10:19

can deny

10:21

you the ability to to do that as long as you

10:23

you'll have that piece of hardware and that Internet connectivity.

10:26

And the fact that that the

10:29

the money that is operational in

10:31

your country does not work, then,

10:33

of course, it would follow that

10:36

if you could only get a lot of people

10:38

in the country to use this electronic

10:40

thing that, you know, has

10:42

better properties than the local money

10:45

that was kind of imposed on you

10:47

or that you happily used until

10:49

very recently, but now it's become worthless,

10:52

then, you know, why wouldn't you switch?

10:54

Right? Like and think that that became

10:57

a bit of an open question in my

10:59

mind.

11:00

What was it that made it click for you?

11:02

You know, at this point, think you were you were abroad.

11:05

You were no in Venezuela, when

11:07

when you're reading about Bitcoin, what

11:09

was the sort of connection that made you tick?

11:11

You did work certainly after on the open money initiative,

11:14

which is I think the time where you and I connected.

11:16

So can you talk a little bit about what what that

11:18

what was that journey like to kind of connecting

11:20

those dots and and deciding to do this work

11:22

and focus back in Venezuela?

11:25

Yeah. So even though I lived abroad, I

11:27

wanted to keep connected to Venezuela

11:30

somehow, and I found in

11:32

the Cataract Chronicles community, kind of place

11:34

to do that, to to be able to talk about Venezuela

11:36

in English because I want to tell my friends

11:38

about it, and I wanted to connect

11:41

the world that I was living in, which is working

11:43

in English, living in English with

11:45

my past, and I wanted to show,

11:47

you know, what to to a like, foreign

11:49

audience what what Venezuela was like and

11:52

to tell stories of Venezuela by Venezuela.

11:55

So I did write

11:57

a few articles with the Catarachenko's

11:59

team. In my work, I

12:01

never really got the opportunity to

12:04

until that point, to be

12:07

more involved in in Venezuela. So

12:09

I was I think it was feeling a bit powerless,

12:12

but, like, just being writing articles

12:14

and not doing a lot for

12:17

for Venezuela at the time and,

12:19

like, being abroad and, you know, just, like, having

12:21

this immense privilege and that was around

12:23

the time the Bettering clicked and that was around

12:26

the time also very importantly

12:28

that the Pedro

12:29

Maludos per cryptocurrency was

12:32

launched. Right? Or, you know, that it was it was

12:34

announced. The petrol was a cryptocurrency

12:36

token project launched by the Venezuelan

12:39

government that was sold

12:41

as a token that would be backed

12:43

by the government's oil reserves. So

12:47

Of course, I think the first thing I did there was

12:49

denounce the attempt of the Bettering

12:51

as, you know, of the

12:54

mockery of of, like, the cryptocurrency

12:56

technology and the values of of

12:58

the cryptocurrency community. But

13:00

also, I think what like,

13:03

the call to action there was,

13:05

okay. Well, I mean, if if they're gonna

13:07

try this thing. I think the community

13:09

needs to have a response. Like, what what is the cryptocurrency

13:12

community? The big community going to do?

13:14

With the fact that Venezuela wants to

13:16

further centralize their money and and

13:18

just have it on government databases

13:21

that rather than, you know, their a

13:23

little bit more decentralized system where

13:26

where the banks are are the ones handling

13:28

it. But is there a better way? Like,

13:30

can can we encourage

13:33

people in Venezuela to to

13:35

use bitcoin and to show them the benefits

13:37

of using bitcoin. And and is there a fit

13:39

between our Bitcoin offers today

13:42

and what Venezuelans need right now.

13:44

And think that's where the

13:47

whole open money initiative project came

13:49

to be born, we

13:52

were craving kind of justification

13:55

for for the tech that

13:58

was a bit stronger than

14:00

just, oh, well, like, this is a way that

14:02

I can make money. Right? I we wanted

14:04

to be able to see if someone

14:06

could use this or or people who are actually already

14:08

using it for for things

14:11

that, you know, we're we're bit more

14:13

necessary for for day to day life. So

14:15

that we did a research project with

14:17

the open money initiative. My friends,

14:19

Jill Gunther, Jamesdowner,

14:21

Jamal Montesert, we launched this

14:24

initiative. You know, we we did some interviews,

14:26

and we went into

14:28

Columbia and Venezuela later on.

14:31

To talk to people who were actually using big

14:33

one for avoiding the capital controls

14:35

or or the or the forex controls, and

14:37

they were using it as a bridge mostly. Right?

14:39

To be able to access the US dollar

14:41

and to be able to work in international

14:44

markets. We found that the industry

14:46

needed a bit more players

14:48

that would cater to the

14:51

the people who just wanted to use money

14:53

in the way that everyday people use their

14:55

money. Not necessarily. I I don't

14:57

just don't wanna use

14:59

a specific service to earn more money, but I

15:01

I just want to be able to keep my money safe. So

15:03

I wanna be able to have a place where my

15:05

money, I can easily

15:06

transfer, from here to there, or

15:09

I can just use it internationally. I

15:11

remember reading your first report from

15:13

the open money initiative, and I remember it it

15:15

took out to me that you guys said things like,

15:18

stop building apps on iOS twelve

15:20

or fourteen or eleven. You need

15:22

to build apps that can be managed and supported

15:24

by

15:25

mobiles. Most people run on android down

15:27

there. My question to you is, did

15:29

you expect to find what you found when you

15:31

went out to do those reports? So I

15:33

I did expect some things. I did learn some

15:35

some things that were new. For example, again,

15:37

I I'll mention, I think was a

15:39

bit naive in expecting

15:41

people to be able to just pick up bitcoin and

15:43

and start using it. And I did know,

15:45

for example, that most people

15:48

had very old mobile phones.

15:50

That that that part was not new. I think it was just

15:52

mostly validation. I think one thing

15:54

that came as a surprise to us, and to

15:56

me, in particular, when doing the research

15:59

was the extent to which people use

16:01

bitcoin only as I conduit to

16:03

the US dollar and not as

16:05

a means into itself because the community

16:07

was very focused on Bitcoin and they wanted Bitcoin

16:10

to succeed and they they held Bitcoin. So, of

16:12

course, they wanted its appreciation.

16:14

But I think the majority of Venezuelans

16:17

were trading on local bitcoins, for example.

16:19

I think they they saw this opportunity. And

16:22

some some of them believe they couldn't get a bitcoin,

16:24

but the ability to hold dollars was

16:26

much dear.

16:28

What stood out to me the most when I was reading

16:31

the open money initiative report was

16:33

the degree of diversity among the people that

16:35

were adopting Bitcoin in Venezuela. It

16:37

was around this time when I was connected to Alejandro

16:39

by our common friend, Alex Blostein, He's

16:42

the chief strategy officer of the Human Rights Foundation

16:44

and was guest number one of this podcast. And

16:46

coincidentally, Alejandro happened to be

16:48

doing research in Carora, which is where

16:50

my mom's from.

16:53

What do you think based on the work that you've done

16:55

are the biggest barriers to crypto adoption

16:58

in Latin

16:58

America? And this includes both stable coins

17:00

and Bitcoin. Well, I think

17:03

lack of knowledge. Like lack of knowledge that this

17:05

is a possibility, I think is is

17:07

maybe the biggest barrier. Seem to be a lot

17:10

more people who are banked and who are familiar with the banking

17:12

world and are willing to use banking products than

17:14

people who are Well,

17:16

I'm going banks don't work for me, so I'm gonna

17:18

use alternative instead. I think we we still

17:21

have to bridge that gap, and we still have

17:23

to show people that a

17:25

bank may not be as

17:27

trustworthy as they say they are or as

17:29

they have proven not to be? Well, the

17:31

fact that there's this other company that follows

17:33

these, you know, set of guarantees and these

17:35

rules. Like, for example, your proof of reserves, the

17:38

the the way that you show like, that you

17:41

could build trust with your customers and not

17:43

being a bank. Being to

17:45

search for the foreign company that,

17:47

you know, someone in Venezuela might find

17:50

lot more appealing than than putting

17:52

their money in in a local insurance bank

17:54

even though it's it's called a bank and it's

17:56

regulated by authorities locally,

17:59

which you would think would mean more

18:01

security. I think it's right

18:03

to say, like, oh, we need more education,

18:06

but we we we do. But we

18:09

I think more than anything, need products that

18:11

prove to be resilient and

18:13

prove to be really good and

18:15

better than local alternatives in times

18:17

of crisis. And think with every

18:20

crisis, you know, now eleven

18:22

on, for example, I'm sure that a lot

18:24

of people are finding Bettering value

18:26

in in keeping accounts abroad

18:29

and accounts in in crypto companies

18:31

and in in crypto itself, like in the protocols

18:33

themselves. So I

18:35

think we still have long way to go.

18:38

Do you think that the

18:40

issues we're experiencing in Latin America can

18:43

be fixed by creation of better money

18:45

technology or better privacy technology?

18:47

Or do you think this is simply a lack of education

18:50

that doesn't allow for the understanding

18:52

of the value of these technologies?

18:54

It's a very difficult question because

18:58

one fact is that most Latin

19:00

Americans believe the dollar

19:02

is stronger than their national currencies. And

19:04

I think believe it for good reason,

19:07

historically, by experience.

19:10

There might be a lot of value in the government being

19:12

able to issue its own currency

19:14

if it were adequately managed. But

19:16

I think if you can advertise

19:19

and and successfully manage

19:21

a a company and a

19:23

product that gives people access

19:25

to US dollars in Latin America, which

19:27

is, again, what most people want. So

19:30

if if you as as a company

19:33

create that path right,

19:35

to to for for moving from national currency

19:37

to the dollar. And then you

19:40

also have paths to go

19:42

to other assets like Bitcoin. As people

19:44

start learning about this and and making up

19:46

their own minds about it, they will traverse the

19:48

the past themselves. I I don't believe in,

19:50

like, preaching to to

19:52

people about bitcoin too much. III

19:55

very much believe in, like you said,

19:57

in in creating products that solve a specific

19:59

need, a specific desire,

20:02

which is, okay, I want to be able to access

20:04

US dollars. Being the trustworthy

20:06

partner that the bank that

20:08

is well managed should be. Like, the bank that

20:10

is, you know, that that

20:12

that's supposed like, in in the in the public imagination,

20:15

the bank is is some something that you

20:17

know, keeps your money safe. It is so

20:19

that's a partner for you to, like, issue

20:22

the the issues you alone and you could build business

20:25

or or you can you can buy a car or you can buy an apartment.

20:27

And in in many cases, that

20:30

that desire or or that expectation

20:32

about the bank is is fulfilled, and and

20:34

especially in countries like the US and Canada and

20:37

so on, Bettering many other places, it's

20:39

not. And if you, again, as

20:41

a foreign, foreign company, but

20:43

that that is looking to serve people

20:45

in different countries in Latin America, and and

20:47

you understand them very well as as you

20:49

do coming from there. Yeah.

20:51

Just just I think we're we're just going to

20:53

see more people interested in this other

20:55

model of, like, okay, instead of putting my money in

20:57

a local bank, I'd rather trust Laven with

20:59

my money or I'd rather trust

21:02

you know, my own wallet with the money

21:04

because I I wanna keep it in Bitcoin and I I want

21:06

to keep it myself. So now there's a lot

21:08

more choice and that's great. No,

21:10

absolutely. And, you know,

21:13

we one of the the the funnest things

21:15

about this business is to hear from people

21:17

things like, hey, you're the first dollar

21:19

loan I've ever been approved for. Hey,

21:21

you're the first you're the first place

21:24

I've ever been able to store dollars and earn

21:26

interest. You know, the the before UI

21:28

was using cash and I couldn't pay anything online,

21:30

etcetera, those are, to me,

21:32

the most fulfilling parts of this business. And

21:35

I wanna talk to you about what you do today

21:37

because you also work in one of the coolest companies in

21:39

Bitcoin. And I would love for you to tell me

21:41

little bit about what bid refill is and

21:43

what you were trying to achieve? Absolutely.

21:46

So bid refill is a product that I have loved

21:48

since twenty seventeen or so when I was,

21:50

like, starting to get into Bitcoin because it

21:52

enabled me to send phone

21:54

top ups to distant cousins and

21:56

people in Venezuela. Since

21:58

then, we have improved our offering by

22:00

significantly. We offer gift cards.

22:03

We've offered bill payments in some countries,

22:05

and we are looking to

22:07

offer more more financial products nowadays

22:10

or or more products that

22:12

enable you to live on crypto.

22:15

And there's multiple approaches that maybe you

22:17

can convince merchants locally to accept

22:19

it when directly. So you you pay

22:21

with refill in this case, and we take

22:23

care of that bill, or we take care

22:25

of that that, like, balanced top up. So

22:28

it's very exciting Right

22:30

now, we're we're expanding the product

22:32

line, as I said, bill payments

22:34

to other countries. And

22:37

perhaps other news requests that

22:39

are coming up.

22:41

That that's very exciting. I recommend people

22:43

check it out. It was more they're one of the OG

22:45

bitcoin companies and they're filled with

22:47

great people. How did you see

22:49

Bitcoin changing the lives of people

22:51

in Venezuela in the next three to five

22:54

years?

22:56

The alternative economy that is

22:58

not going through the banking system is

23:00

going to grow, want to keep growing.

23:03

Banks have a really hard time in Venezuela

23:06

issuing credits in dollars

23:09

or providing basic services that people want.

23:11

Because of the impasse between

23:14

the United States and Venezuela. Having

23:16

alternatives, as I mentioned earlier, is

23:19

is a good thing. And Bitcoin is a part of those

23:21

alternatives. So right now, if I want to pay

23:24

for services in Venezuela, I have the option

23:26

to use big refill and top up phone

23:28

numbers. If I want to send

23:30

something and I can use an Amazon account

23:33

in the US and and something we acquired to Venezuela,

23:35

I can also do that. People

23:38

still have this need of being able

23:40

to use electronic money while

23:43

not formally approved by

23:45

by someone outside. Like,

23:47

if you want to open traditional Bank of America account

23:50

as a bank, Switzerland, it's very hard for you to do so. But

23:52

if you wanna open an eleven account or if you wanna

23:54

open a cryptocurrency wallet, a Bitcoin wallet,

23:56

easier, way easier to do so. So

23:59

I think as people realize that this

24:01

is an alternative that they can use that is trustworthy

24:03

and that it ties

24:05

into the way that they can they can make purchases.

24:08

Then I think people are going to just

24:11

see see more value in it. And I think

24:13

it's going to continue growing with

24:16

both with Bitcoin and with stablecoin. Where

24:18

can our guests find more about your work?

24:22

Twitter dot com slash ALEGW.

24:26

That's where I sometimes tweet.

24:28

Also, I'm going to few conferences

24:30

this year, crypto related. Yeah.

24:32

You can write me an email at alejandro at b

24:34

refill dot com. If you think

24:36

that, you know, you have a

24:39

a useful service to provide that we could

24:41

partner in

24:42

that, just hit me up at any of those

24:44

locations. Thank you so Machado.

24:46

It's been a pleasure and a privilege,

24:49

and I hope to see you again very soon. Likewise.

24:52

It's been pleasure.

24:54

Alain mentioned that we all hang out in bubbles,

24:57

which unfortunately can lead us to groupthink

24:59

and to assume that most people stick

25:01

to a Bettering Reality is

25:04

much more nuanced however. And

25:06

that's why we need research. We need better

25:08

information to confirm or reject our beliefs

25:10

and to refine our mental model. It's

25:12

one of the reasons why I wanted to start to spot

25:14

guests. I wanted to learn and share how people

25:16

use Bitcoin in ways that are simply not discussed

25:18

in mainstream media. The Rolling Andres

25:20

research in Venezuela learned that many more people

25:23

than I expected were using

25:24

Bitcoin, and they were using it in ways that were even

25:26

surprising to me, but was there. Over

25:29

time, projects like the Open Money initiative will

25:31

help us better understand how people are using

25:33

this technology to solve their

25:34

own problems. And this will ultimately help

25:36

us build better products. I

25:38

believe the better research is needed and will help

25:40

us learn how we can amplify Bitcoin's positive

25:42

impact in the world.

25:55

If you join this because of Bitcoin episode, I

25:57

would be very grateful for the five seconds

25:59

it would take you to drop us a review and give us

26:01

a rating on your favorite podcasting platform.

26:03

This will really help us reach even more

26:06

listeners. And if you'd like to learn more

26:08

about Bitcoin, be sure to check out our newsletter

26:10

by subscribing at LETN dot I

26:12

o. Let's let a dot I o. Again, this

26:14

was Mauricio Dior Toro Mayo. Stay tuned for

26:16

our next episode, and until

26:17

then, touch

26:20

up.