0:00

So the main question that I think a

0:02

lot of folks are trying to crackle

0:04

with is, okay, fine. So the institutions

0:06

are by, the EF rolls are strong,

0:08

February is going to be a little

0:10

weaker, but at least until January they

0:13

were strong. So who's selling? Right. This

0:15

is the main question we're having because

0:17

I mean, there's the expectation of a

0:19

lot of important use flow of locks,

0:22

right? So maybe we're going to see

0:24

more banks getting into the Bitcoin, getting

0:26

into the Bitcoin space with the drop

0:28

of SAB one to one. There's the

0:31

potential of stable coin regulation in the

0:33

US that could take the segment to new

0:35

eyes. Like, there is a lot to be

0:37

excited about. You're listening to Because

0:39

of Bitcoin, a podcast that shares

0:42

the personal stories of how Bitcoin

0:44

is having a real impact in

0:46

people's lives, including mine. I'm your

0:49

host, Mauricio Di Bartolomeo, the co-founder

0:51

and CSO of Let It. And

0:53

without further ado, let's get started

0:56

with today's story. Most

1:08

of us in the Bitcoin world are

1:10

now familiar with the experience of buying

1:12

Bitcoin and keeping it safe. For many

1:14

of us, the act is just as

1:17

simple as sending a wire or transfer

1:19

of local fiat, whether that's dollars or

1:21

pesos, to your exchange, and once they

1:23

arrive, we can submit a buy order

1:25

for the amount of Bitcoin we want.

1:27

Once the order is submitted, and the

1:29

transactions complete, we can then go and

1:31

withdraw our Bitcoin. But now imagine

1:33

that you are a large corporation looking

1:35

to buy 50 million dollars worth

1:37

of Bitcoin instead of 50. Your

1:40

order will move the market. And if

1:42

it's not done correctly, you may end

1:44

up paying a lot more than

1:46

you should have for that Bitcoin.

1:48

So how do large corporations transact

1:51

in this industry? Mostly through crime

1:53

brokerages. Prime brokerages are firms that

1:55

are built to assist institutional players

1:57

whenever they need to transact. in

2:00

the market in an efficient way.

2:02

One of the top prime brokers

2:04

in the space is Falcon X.

2:06

And in today's episode, I have

2:08

the privilege of hosting David LaWant,

2:10

their head of research. David and

2:12

I dove deep into the institutional

2:14

Bitcoin market infrastructure, the role that

2:16

prime broker just played today, and

2:18

how institutions are approaching the space.

2:21

Without further ado, here is my

2:23

conversation with David Lawant. David,

2:28

my friend, good to see you again. How

2:30

are you? Hey, Mauricio, it's so

2:32

good to see you. Thank you for

2:35

having me, looking forward to the

2:37

conversation. My pleasure, I've been meaning

2:39

to speak with you because I

2:41

think you're going to add a

2:43

perspective to what we've been seeing

2:45

in the markets that is going

2:47

to be very unique. And I'm going

2:49

to learn from it and I think

2:52

our listeners are going to learn from

2:54

it, so I'm excited. on Twitter or

2:56

read about on your research. And the

2:58

way I open it is by asking

3:01

you, what was it like growing

3:03

up in the Levant household? And

3:05

was money or finance a big

3:07

topic at the dinner table in

3:09

your family? Oh, man, that's

3:12

such a good starting question.

3:14

Yeah, so I was born in

3:16

Brazil, so like you, I'm originally

3:18

from South America. And I had

3:20

a privileged life. I'd be

3:22

very fortunate in that regard

3:25

in terms of financial security

3:27

and all that sort of stuff. But

3:29

when I was a kid, I

3:31

have been to the Brazilian high

3:34

pre-inflation period. I was too small

3:36

to remember, to be honest, but...

3:38

I mean in Brazil like if

3:40

you came of age during the

3:42

80s or until the mid-90s hyperinflation

3:44

and consequences that these inflationary policies

3:46

bring is kind of part and

3:48

parcel with your life. So yeah

3:50

I have relatively clear memories of

3:53

like okay there's like shortage of

3:55

meat and shortage of all sorts

3:57

of goods like this would kind

3:59

of take today in Brazil until

4:01

the mid-90s. Then at that point, there

4:03

were some big macroeconomic

4:05

reforms that ended up stabilizing the

4:08

Brazilian currency and paved the way

4:10

for a lot of the development

4:12

that we saw over the past

4:14

few decades. But yeah, if you were

4:16

born in Brazil and if you were probably

4:19

low 30s or older, you probably

4:21

have some memory of inflation in back

4:23

to your life. I joke with people

4:25

that are not from Latin America and

4:27

I say that. Latin America is like

4:30

the World Cup. Every four years we

4:32

have a runaway government that hyperinflates away

4:34

the currency and a banking system fails.

4:36

And so to me it hasn't been

4:38

a surprise to see the people from

4:40

our region understanding Bitcoin and having it

4:43

clicked. faster than others that haven't

4:45

experienced these types of things. And my

4:47

next question was going to be, which

4:49

I typically ask is, do you have

4:51

any experiences from growing up around broken

4:53

money or broken property rights that you

4:56

still carry today? And you very eloquently

4:58

just explained that. A follow-on from there

5:00

is, does your family follow Bitcoin? Are

5:02

they Bitcoiners? Or how has that been

5:04

a reaction around your broader group of

5:07

friends and family? Not at all. I'm

5:09

kind of a black sheep in my

5:11

family in terms of being into a

5:13

Bitcoin and sound money. I actually

5:15

got into sound money. It's

5:18

interesting because I was relatively

5:20

young when these inflationary fears

5:22

were very prevalent in Brazil,

5:24

but I started to get interested

5:27

in sound money after the

5:29

global financial crisis of 2008.

5:31

So I was working the

5:34

investment banking industry and then That

5:36

was a big wake-up call and I

5:38

think it was a wake-up call for

5:40

a lot of folks. So it's kind

5:42

of interesting that for me, the wake-up

5:44

call for all these monetary disarrangements we

5:46

have today actually came from a US

5:49

event. That led me to dig deeper

5:51

and start to reading about Austrian economics.

5:53

I like all that good stuff. And

5:55

then of course, all those memories and

5:58

you say, oh, so that. That was

6:00

at the core of all those problems that

6:02

we were having in the beginning. But it's

6:04

a long journey. And then within my

6:06

family, no, I mean, I'm the only

6:08

Bitcoiner. Well, that's funny. My family is

6:10

all Bitcoiners. My parents and my uncles

6:12

and my brothers and everybody's a Bitcoiner.

6:15

My group of friends, not so much.

6:17

Even though the guys that grew up

6:19

with back home, they've all been ravaged

6:21

by inflation. And out of 10 of us,

6:23

I think the real, only long-term, long-term liquid

6:26

holder, liquid holder is still me. or the

6:28

people that's kind of stayed in the space

6:30

and got into the industry, which is still

6:33

a big shock to me that more people

6:35

aren't in it, especially close to others that

6:37

have been in this space and have seen

6:39

it grow. But they say we get bit quite

6:41

at the price we deserve. It's a long

6:44

and complex journey. It's hard to overstate

6:46

sometimes how hard it can be, right?

6:48

You have to overcome so many of

6:50

your prevalent beliefs. So yeah, it's

6:52

a journey. Everybody I think will eventually

6:54

go through it. So let's keep on your

6:57

journey. You grew up in Brazil. You

6:59

went to your undergrad degree

7:01

in Brazil, which interestingly, you

7:03

did your undergrad on electrical

7:05

and electronic engineering. And then you

7:07

went straight into banking and

7:10

worked in the banking sector

7:12

in Brazil. There's a point in there

7:14

where you went and got your NBA

7:16

at Stanford. And I believe from what

7:18

I saw on your career trajectory, that

7:21

seems to have been the platform through

7:23

which you pivoted between finance. to digital

7:25

assets. Oh yeah. At what point in

7:27

this journey does Bitcoin come into your

7:30

life and what made you make the

7:32

decision to basically do your NBA and

7:34

move into this industry? So I'm an engineer

7:36

by training. I actually worked as

7:38

a software developer for a couple

7:40

of years during those 30-hour week

7:42

internship during college, but then after

7:45

I graduated as he said, I moved

7:47

to finance. That was a very

7:49

typical path in Brazil at the

7:51

time. It probably still is. A

7:53

lot of engineering graduates end up

7:55

going to investment and finance type

7:57

of professions and I did that for 11

7:59

years. and was happy, was working very

8:02

hard, but there was a lot

8:04

going on. And then it comes

8:06

to the point I mentioned, like

8:08

the 2008 global financial crisis, I

8:10

started to read some folks that

8:12

had kind of an alternative tape

8:14

on what were the problems that

8:16

led to that crisis. So I

8:18

started to read folks like, and

8:20

a lot of them are gold

8:22

walks. So folks like Peter Shiff.

8:24

And Jim Grant, of whom I'm

8:27

still a big fan, leadership a

8:29

little less. So I started to

8:31

see that those guys had a

8:33

different framework to understand, not even

8:36

the crisis, but economics and more

8:38

general. That kind of led me

8:40

to Austrian economics. That was of

8:42

course a multi-year journey because it

8:45

was not my full-time job. It's

8:47

just a thing that I will

8:49

do whenever I got interested. And

8:51

then by 2015, maybe 2016. I

8:53

was already deep in Austrian economics

8:55

and sound money and gold circles.

8:57

It's not something that you would

8:59

have in let's say polite conversations

9:01

in finance circles is mostly at

9:04

least at the time for me

9:06

for the environment I was in was just

9:08

something that you would do kind of on

9:10

your own and I had a few guys

9:12

here or there who were also interested in

9:14

the same thing. And then I learned about

9:16

Bitcoin probably at around that time.

9:18

But I had the gold bug

9:21

view. I was like, hey, there's

9:23

no way this thing will replace

9:25

gold. So for actually two years,

9:27

I was just aware of Bitcoin.

9:30

I was aware of the sound

9:32

money kind of thesis, but

9:34

I just couldn't accept Bitcoin as

9:36

that solution. So like a

9:39

year or two later, that's when

9:41

Bitcoin really grew on me. And

9:43

that's why I actually moved to

9:45

the U.S. So I went to

9:47

business school exactly with the intention

9:49

of trying to understand whether someone

9:51

can develop an institutional investor career

9:53

in the Bitcoin space. At the

9:55

time, of course, was basically only

9:57

Bitcoin. That's basically why I came.

9:59

up staying, I live in California, California

10:01

has its issues, but it has some

10:03

great things like the weather and a

10:05

lot of great things to do. So I ended

10:08

up staying in California and that was

10:10

my shift indeed from traditional finance to

10:12

work in the Bitcoin and crypto industry.

10:15

And then after that I started to

10:17

work on funds and now I worked

10:19

for Falcon X which is a crypto

10:21

prime broker, a company that serves institutions.

10:23

So yeah, I mean interesting that you

10:25

spotted that. This was very much the

10:27

turning point. When I'm preparing for this,

10:30

I always try to dig a little

10:32

deeper and try to make questions that

10:34

are going to draw hopefully some interesting

10:36

insights from you. But another thing I

10:39

noticed is that your career in digital

10:41

assets has also been with a large

10:43

focus around the research component. And you've

10:45

worked with some of the top firms

10:47

in the space, both from what I

10:50

see, always on the research side. I wanted

10:52

to ask you. What drives your love for research?

10:54

You're currently ahead of recent year of Falcon

10:56

X, which we are going to get into

10:58

in a second, but what is it that

11:00

drives your love for research? So perhaps you

11:02

put into context, during these kind of

11:04

10-11 years that was working Trendfai, I

11:06

was a research analyst. So that's basically

11:08

what I did for the pretty much

11:10

entirety of this period. I worked a

11:12

little bit on investment banking on the

11:14

deal side here and there, but like for most

11:17

of the time I was a research analyst. And

11:19

I think I just like research. I

11:21

always think about what are the things

11:23

that you like that everybody finds boring.

11:26

And that's kind of it. For

11:28

me, I like digging into the

11:30

documents and getting the data, trying

11:33

to figure out if the data

11:35

is right. And perhaps that's where you

11:37

can find an interesting insight. The other

11:39

thing I like about research is that.

11:41

There's not only this analytical work, but

11:44

there's also the interaction with other very

11:46

smart folks like talking to you and

11:48

so many interesting people in the space

11:51

and also get to write. So I

11:53

think it's an interesting combination of more

11:55

analytical work and also content production and

11:58

talking to people that I I think

12:00

it's really hard to find. So yeah,

12:02

I'm a lower case researcher, I would

12:04

say. I'm not like doing protocol type

12:07

of stuffs, more like markets. But I'm

12:09

just passionate about understanding markets, talking to

12:11

smart people, just something I'd like to

12:13

do. And I was pretty fortunate to

12:16

figure that out relatively only my career.

12:18

What's awesome and you know you're really good

12:20

at it and you love what you do

12:22

I think it comes across. Now let's get

12:24

into a little bit of markets and more

12:26

about your work today. So you as mentioned

12:28

are at Falcon X which is one of the

12:30

top firms in the space when I asked you

12:32

can you explain to us what it is that

12:35

you do for those that may be unfamiliar

12:37

but as a big player in the

12:39

institutional market you get a view of

12:41

the market structure on an institutional level

12:43

that few people get. Could you walk us

12:46

through? some of the critical parts

12:48

of this infrastructure and the

12:50

role that firms like Falcon

12:52

X play in this ecosystem?

12:54

Yeah, for sure. That's a great question

12:56

and a topic I love to talk

12:58

about. I've been at Falcon X

13:00

for about two years now, and one

13:02

of the pleasures of joining a brokerage

13:05

firm like Falcon X is that you

13:07

get to go deep into the bare

13:09

bones of how the market actually works.

13:11

Perhaps I can start with what Falcon

13:14

X does, and Falcon X is a

13:16

crypto prime broker. Prime brokerage is

13:18

a concept that is very established in

13:20

traditional finance, and it has been

13:23

ported to crypto over the years.

13:25

as the market structure of crypto

13:27

has matured. So Falcon X started

13:29

actually 2018 as an OTC desk

13:32

and then it started to offer

13:34

more and more services and today

13:36

we have this prime brokerage concept.

13:38

The actual concept of prime brokerage

13:41

is slightly different from Treadfly but

13:43

I think the important point is

13:45

that there are a number of

13:47

reasons for why many institutions they

13:49

would rather interact with a prime

13:51

broker instead of for going directly

13:53

to an exchange. And I can give

13:55

you perhaps an example of how a

13:58

retail workflow would look like. how the

14:00

institutional flow will like and maybe that

14:02

will highlight some of the differences and

14:05

why firms like us exist. So let's

14:07

say if you're a retail person and

14:09

let's say you want to buy some

14:12

Bitcoin so there's different ways to do

14:14

it of course but the most common

14:16

way probably for people to do this

14:18

would be to wire fiet to an

14:21

exchange or either fiet or stable coins

14:23

to an exchange. Now you're going to

14:25

wait for that wire to hit and

14:28

that might take let's say a few

14:30

hours or a day depending on the

14:32

company we're interacting with, depending on the

14:35

fiat rails you're using, and then you're

14:37

going to just put an order in

14:39

the order book of that exchange, you're

14:42

going to get your Bitcoin, and then

14:44

you're going to do something with it,

14:46

right? Maybe you're going to use it

14:49

all Latin, whatever it is. The institutional

14:51

process is significantly different. Because imagine that

14:53

instead of just being, let's say, me

14:55

or you buying like a fraction of

14:58

a Bitcoin, what if you're one of

15:00

these large ETF issuers and you actually

15:02

need to buy tens of millions, hundreds

15:05

of millions, sometimes a billion dollars in

15:07

Bitcoin and then you need to do

15:09

that in an effective way. What if

15:12

you or let's say Michael Sailor or

15:14

one of these large corporations that need

15:16

to also buy a massive amount of

15:19

Bitcoin at once? These orders, they're way

15:21

more complex and they are not just

15:23

quarters that you can just put on

15:26

an exchange order book because that will

15:28

provide really bad execution for you. So

15:30

that's one of the things that we

15:32

do. Like a lot of these firms

15:35

come to firms like Falcon X because

15:37

we are connected to this very broad

15:39

liquidity ecosystem in Bitcoin and crypto more

15:42

generally. So we're connected to OTC desks,

15:44

market makers, miners, other funds. and the

15:46

exchanges themselves, but whenever a client comes

15:49

to us and they can come with

15:51

some pretty sizable orders, we can give

15:53

them a very good price that will

15:56

allow them to do this with some

15:58

pretty good. execution. And then sometimes this

16:00

price difference might not look very big,

16:03

but when you're talking about these large

16:05

volumes, they can actually make a big

16:07

difference in your P&L. The other component

16:09

is the credit component. So like, imagine

16:12

if a fund wants to trade on

16:14

an exchange, but they don't have the

16:16

funds there. So they're not going to

16:19

wait for a day or hours for

16:21

a wire to hit the exchange. They

16:23

can, for example, use our and this

16:26

is one of the things that we

16:28

do. So we provide a pretty broad

16:30

range of services, whether that's liquidity provisioning,

16:33

whether that spot or derivatives, we have

16:35

gravel, which is a full subsidiary of

16:37

Falcon X, that has a CFTC swap

16:40

dealer license. What that means is that

16:42

we can do some very regulated type

16:44

of derivatives. instruments that are very familiar

16:46

for banks and asset managers that are

16:49

in the space and want to look

16:51

for a familiar and regulated way to

16:53

have access to disaster class. So there's

16:56

this all liquidity provisioning process. There's also

16:58

the credit side of things. There was

17:00

also custody. And then a bunch of

17:03

auxiliary services like market making, research, which

17:05

is what I do. So what we

17:07

try to do is to be a

17:10

one-stop shop for institutions that have this

17:12

somewhat different type of requirements when they

17:14

want to access the Bitcoin market. with

17:17

the crypto market compared to a traditional

17:19

retail person. The demands and needs of

17:21

a person trading $100 million are very

17:23

different than those of a person buying

17:26

$100 and they will have dramatically different

17:28

impacts on the market if you just

17:30

go and dump a market buy order

17:33

for $100 million so you're just not

17:35

going to get the best price. So

17:37

there is this idea of efficiency and

17:40

scale and you guys are basically optimized

17:42

for these types of large transactions in

17:44

a way that retail exchanges are not.

17:47

and I think it makes a lot

17:49

of sense because you will be effectively

17:51

the equivalent of an exchange to a

17:53

general person that you would argue that

17:56

a person could get a lot of

17:58

the services, maybe not credit another. So

18:00

that's a really good point. You guys

18:03

go above and beyond. on where an

18:05

exchange offers, and you offer interconnectivity to

18:07

effectively all exchanges instead of just one

18:10

exchange or a great number of them

18:12

instead of just one. I think that's

18:14

a good way to put it. And

18:17

the other interesting thing is that we

18:19

think about this institutional crypto market as

18:21

this monolithic block, but actually institutional investors

18:24

can be very different among themselves. Thinking

18:26

about the different personas we cover, there's

18:28

venture capital funds, there's hedge funds, there's

18:30

prop desks, there's prop desks. There's banks,

18:33

asset managers, Bitcoin miners, there's what we

18:35

call the retail aggregators. These are like

18:37

institutions that aggregate retail flow and then

18:40

they need a liquidity provider to help

18:42

them with market access. Actually, it's a

18:44

very heterogeneous group of clients that might

18:47

have even different needs among themselves. Yeah,

18:49

I think it's a great point. I

18:51

mean, Latin is a great example of

18:54

what a retail aggregator would be, and

18:56

we've known you guys and worked with

18:58

you guys for many years, so that's

19:01

a great example. The question I have,

19:03

because you're spending so much time talking

19:05

to these institutions that are so different

19:07

and I have so many differences than

19:10

a normal market participant would, do you

19:12

notice any difference between how these institutions

19:14

are approaching Bitcoin versus how they're approaching

19:17

stable coins versus how they're approaching every

19:19

other asset? What is your view? And

19:21

do you agree with that type of

19:24

segmentation? Yeah, I think it's a good

19:26

way to put it, especially over the

19:28

past year or so. I feel like

19:31

Bitcoin has been decoupling from the rest

19:33

of crypto, which I personally think it

19:35

makes sense. I think Bitcoin is categorically

19:38

different from the rest of crypto, just

19:40

because of its intrinsic properties, as I'm

19:42

sure many folks have come to the

19:44

podcast to talk about that, how just

19:47

like gold is different than other commodities,

19:49

because it's the monetary acid. I think

19:51

Bitcoin is different from crypto because it

19:54

has these limited supply like auditability, immutability.

19:56

It has these properties at all. level

19:58

that I don't think any other blockchain

20:01

has. So between's definitely different. And then

20:03

stable coins also clearly emerged as a

20:05

very interesting use case for, let's say,

20:08

block chains over the past years. So

20:10

it's a very efficient way to transact

20:12

in dollars. It can be a very

20:15

efficient way to access dollars, depending where

20:17

you are. So yeah, I think it's

20:19

very fair to say that Bitcoin is

20:21

kind of in its own category. probably

20:24

since the launch of the ETF I

20:26

think this has been becoming clearer and

20:28

clearer even among the mainstream investor audience.

20:31

I think stable coins is a major

20:33

area and it's probably still early days

20:35

and there's a lot going on in

20:38

the stable coin space, a lot of

20:40

investments, a lot of new things still

20:42

being created there. And then the rest

20:45

of crypto there's interesting stuff and I

20:47

don't want to minimize that. I think

20:49

that there are certain ecosystems that have

20:52

been actually drawing a fair amount of

20:54

institutional interest. So there's things like hyper

20:56

liquidity, Solana, perhaps at least until recently,

20:58

there's a lot going on in some

21:01

of these ecosystems, but they feel a

21:03

lot more like venture capital type of

21:05

bad. It's more like a new kind

21:08

of technological platform, while Bitcoin is probably

21:10

more like a macro asset. So I

21:12

think it makes sense to think of

21:15

Bitcoin as separate from the rest of

21:17

script. And are you seeing among your

21:19

client base? Are there any differences to,

21:22

for example, what an institution of a

21:24

large size uses a stable coin for

21:26

and how are they approaching Bitcoin and

21:28

versus how they're approaching everything else? I

21:31

guess what I'm trying to understand is

21:33

I have this idea in my mind

21:35

that there is a cohort of big.

21:38

companies now and firms that are buying

21:40

Bitcoin to hold it on their balance

21:42

sheets, potentially to do other things like

21:45

selling covered calls on them or trying

21:47

to get yield on them or use

21:49

them for liquidity with something like leaden.

21:52

We've done deals for publicly traded companies

21:54

and a bunch of companies that have

21:56

the code on them. treasury is becoming

21:59

more and more common for us. On

22:01

the stable coins, I see them a

22:03

lot as a settlement layer, even for

22:05

settling things between clients of Falcon, like

22:08

firms like Ledin, I can use stable

22:10

coins to settle over a weekend where

22:12

banks aren't on. And I know that

22:15

this is happening with other persons, the

22:17

spaces for the people I speak with.

22:19

On the third one, I think on

22:22

your side of the house, there are.

22:24

fraud desks and funds out there that

22:26

are in the business of speculating on

22:29

these faster moving riskier assets. So I

22:31

guess what I'm trying to determine is

22:33

whether my characterization is accurate or whether

22:36

if I'm missing something and you know,

22:38

now no, they're using big coins to

22:40

settle and things like that. So I

22:42

would love to get your take on

22:45

how they use these instruments and if

22:47

they do it differently. Awesome. This is

22:49

a great question. So let's break it

22:52

down. I definitely think that stable coins

22:54

is something that is very well established

22:56

in this industry. Of course, trading desks

22:59

like ours operate 24-7. We're not restricted

23:01

to only New York stock exchange market

23:03

hours, so we trade 24-7. Stable coins

23:06

are a very big settlement instrument. Perhaps

23:08

the only thing I would add here,

23:10

and honestly, I think it's a use

23:13

case of stable coins that sometimes is

23:15

not as well advertised or not well

23:17

known. is the usage also of stable

23:19

coins as derivatives collateral. Because when you

23:22

want to trade derivatives, you need to

23:24

post some sort of collateral. And this

23:26

is true in crypto, this is true

23:29

in traditional finance as well. So if

23:31

you want to go to the CME

23:33

and you want to open a derivatives

23:36

position, a futures contract, let's say, the

23:38

CME will ask you to post some

23:40

collateral. And that's how they do all

23:43

their risk management that's part of why

23:45

they're such a great platform. The same

23:47

happens on the crypto side. And today,

23:50

I think stable coins is basically the

23:52

main means to provide collateral to derivatives

23:54

contracts. This is an area that might

23:56

change in the future as well, so

23:59

crypto is very efficient, the crypto market

24:01

structure. has been maturing in an insanely

24:03

interesting way. But one of the things

24:06

that we're a little bit behind is

24:08

that when you're posting collateral for like

24:10

a derivatives operation, you're still using stable

24:13

coins, which don't give you any yield.

24:15

So the carrier is kind of relatively

24:17

unfavorable for whoever is opening that derivatives

24:20

position. So that's why things like tokenized

24:22

money market funds could become interesting as

24:24

well in the future, at least from

24:27

this kind of collateral posting side of

24:29

things. But Yields aside, yield

24:31

bearing instruments aside, stable coins are great

24:33

also for collateral management because when you

24:36

are lending or borrowing, you need to

24:38

be able to move your collateral very

24:40

quickly sometimes. And whether that's the ribs

24:42

or credit, stable coins kind of provide

24:45

them. So that's one thing I would

24:47

say. The second thing is that folks

24:49

starting to use Bitcoin I'm calling this

24:51

kind of the expansion of different use

24:54

cases of the Bitcoin blockchain perhaps, right?

24:56

So like trying to extract some sort

24:58

of yield on a Bitcoin position. I

25:00

think this is a trend and I

25:03

actually think this trend is going to

25:05

grow from here, right? We're seeing all

25:07

these platforms that are trying to do

25:09

this in a more decentralized way, but

25:12

I can tell you that it also

25:14

happens in like centralized venues and centralized

25:16

platforms like us. And we see folks

25:18

doing that all the time. You can

25:21

do it through options, you can do

25:23

it through more like credit instruments, but

25:25

it's definitely a big trend. I can

25:27

echo that because the letter we offer

25:30

growth accounts for people that earn interest

25:32

under Bitcoin in select markets, it's a

25:34

very popular product. People that have enough

25:36

Bitcoin and want to make extra income

25:39

off it, find debt as a great

25:41

avenue to generate that income. And we

25:43

also have DC ads, which is basically

25:45

dual crypto currency notes, which are contracts.

25:48

that in some ways offer similar structure

25:50

than a covered colwood or a covered

25:52

putwood. So 100% it's growing as if

25:54

people understand them more. I think there's

25:57

a lack of awareness as there was

25:59

I think for Bitcoin back loans the

26:01

awareness is kind of gross as the

26:03

product proves itself that it's going to

26:06

be probably one of the next cats

26:08

to out of the bag. I think

26:10

Michael Saylor did that for picquivelons and

26:12

others, and I think someone else is

26:15

going to end up doing this. Now

26:17

you're seeing a lot of these minors

26:19

talk about using some of the balance

26:21

sheet to go get yield, and we're

26:24

starting to see that. I actually wrote,

26:26

I think that's going to be one

26:28

of the balance sheets to go get

26:30

yield, and we're starting to see that.

26:33

I actually wrote, I think that's going

26:35

to be one of the things that

26:37

we're going to, and I'm going to.

26:39

Another thing I've been dying to ask

26:42

you about more recently our industry has

26:44

in my very personal opinion been dealt

26:46

several black eyes with some high profile

26:48

lien coin pump and dumps that have

26:51

caused a lot of pain and public

26:53

outreach However, they've also caused some great

26:55

opportunities for those who are close to

26:57

the market and in some ways willing

27:00

to participate in these types of events

27:02

I don't and let in does not

27:04

and nor do we have any plans

27:06

to do so, but I'm very curious

27:09

to hear what feedback you've had or

27:11

seen from institutions around these recent phenomenums.

27:13

That is a great question and I

27:15

think speaks a little bit to this

27:18

differentiation between Bitcoin and these other asset

27:20

classes. Mean coins are actually a very

27:22

interesting phenomenon. I don't dislike them but

27:24

I'm not a huge fan as well

27:27

personally. You actually wrote a piece about

27:29

this over a year ago and we

27:31

were looking at liquidity trends and That's

27:33

when you had only the quote, quote,

27:36

quote, oh, gene in coins. So it

27:38

was like more dodge coin, and she

27:40

buy, maybe like, bulk, and some of

27:42

these were starting to come off. But

27:45

you could already see, in terms of

27:47

the liquidity trends and how much volume,

27:49

some of these assets were pulling on

27:51

centralized exchanges, you could already see that

27:54

they could stay for a while. And

27:56

I mean, to this day, dodge is

27:58

a relatively liquid asset in centralized exchanges.

28:00

And then, of course, you had the...

28:03

development some of these I want to

28:05

call them meme token launch pad like

28:07

pump dot fun type projects that allowed

28:09

us to produce these mean coins, as

28:12

you well said before we started our

28:14

conversation here, on an industrial scale. So

28:16

that's when you had this proliferation of

28:18

mean coins that has been really a

28:21

site to behold. And that honestly drives

28:23

a lot of the activity on the

28:25

Solana network and on the Solana blockchain.

28:27

I think there's some of it that

28:30

happens on base, which is an Ethereum

28:32

layer two, but also a lot of

28:34

that happened on Solana Solana. Of course,

28:36

the Trump meme coin, perhaps that kind

28:39

of marked the top, was like a

28:41

very unexpected event. I think for many

28:43

hours, many folks were trying to figure

28:45

out whether that was real or not.

28:48

We saw some institutional demand to the

28:50

point that we started to support Trump

28:52

over the weekend, so like many folks

28:54

at Falcon X had committee meetings in

28:57

like the very late hours of the

28:59

night on that Friday before Trump took

29:01

office that the meme coin launched. And

29:03

then we had some like less pleasant

29:06

experiences, right? So I feel like the

29:08

Malania token was a lot less well

29:10

accepted. And then of course we had

29:12

this Malay token that honestly just seems

29:15

like a little bit of a mistap

29:17

and there's a lot of things to

29:19

discuss here. What I want to say

29:21

about meme coins is that I don't

29:24

want to fully rule them out because

29:26

I think there's something about using this

29:28

speculative component as an initial go-to market

29:30

strategy for something this can be interesting.

29:33

But I don't think this can be

29:35

the whole thing. So maybe that's the

29:37

issue with meme coins. Maybe like they

29:39

are EV1 of something that's going to

29:42

be a lot more awesome in the

29:44

future. But I do want to say

29:46

that right now there is kind of

29:48

an environment of exhaustion a little bit.

29:51

I feel like we had perhaps too

29:53

many projects, too many of these tokens,

29:55

I think they failed. There are conversations

29:57

about some of... the market participants or

30:00

folks who are handling some of these

30:02

markets not being totally correct. Yeah, I

30:04

think we're now going definitely through a

30:06

hangover phase for meme coins. This kind

30:09

of reflects a little bit on the

30:11

Solana price. If you see like over

30:13

the past couple of weeks, Solana is

30:15

down probably something like 20% by a

30:18

bit quantity to kind of flat. So

30:20

I think it reflects a little bit

30:22

the exhaustion that we had with this

30:24

space. The cycles are getting much shorter.

30:27

There's been a lot going on and

30:29

I feel like the market is a

30:31

little tired. I would echo. what you

30:33

said. I think one of the things

30:36

I appreciate about mean coins is at

30:38

least their honesty. Their honesty in what

30:40

they're not pretending to be. One of

30:42

the things that have bothered me around

30:45

the previous iterations of these speculative tokens,

30:47

which in my view, outside of stables,

30:49

most of them have been, it's not

30:51

all. And in the past, you used

30:54

to have this veneer of white paper

30:56

and a project and some tokenomics and

30:58

they're trying to make you believe that

31:00

the token was going to accrue value

31:03

in some way. that became less and

31:05

less over time than it deranged into

31:07

things like NFTs, but you didn't have

31:09

to read through them as much, it's

31:12

just a pretty picture and you like

31:14

it. And now it's just completely gone

31:16

to you're in the white paper or

31:18

you're in a business, you're just a

31:21

logo and a meme and something funny

31:23

and then just sort of trying to

31:25

pop this thing. So at least they're

31:27

being honest about what they're trying to

31:30

do or more so than the previous

31:32

iterations of them. that you thought was

31:34

interesting. Can you share and some color

31:36

around some of the price section? We

31:39

were just touched on Solana and you

31:41

know some of the major ones but

31:43

I'm really interested in what your views

31:45

are for Bitcoin and what you're seeing

31:48

in the market if there's anything you

31:50

could share. We're in a very interesting

31:52

market environment for Bitcoin because I think

31:54

we're on the verge, we're actually already

31:57

seeing probably the most significant regulatory unlock

31:59

that Bitcoin has ever had. I think...

32:01

There's definitely like a lot of expectations

32:03

and some measures that have already been

32:05

taken and we can talk about those

32:08

a little more But price has been

32:10

for like a couple of months probably,

32:12

right? So the price of Bitcoin is

32:14

probably ranging in the 100K, maybe 95

32:17

to 100K range for quite a while.

32:19

I mean, we had some inter-day volatility,

32:21

but overall prices haven't deviated too much

32:23

from this range. And one interesting thing

32:26

I believe we're seeing is that there

32:28

seems to be institutional excitement around Bitcoin,

32:30

right? Bitcoin has a very compelling investment

32:32

case. I think Bitcoin is understood as

32:35

this macro asset, world-like type instrument, like

32:37

just it's newer, it's less developed, it's

32:39

less recognized by the market, so it

32:41

will have its idiosyncrasies. But I think

32:44

that the Bitcoin investment case is fairly

32:46

well understood by like many institutional investors,

32:48

and not only Bitcoin-specific rate, you can

32:50

talk to a lot of these very

32:53

smart macro folks, I think a lot

32:55

of them understand what is the role.

32:57

that Bitcoin can play in a diversified

32:59

macro portfolio. I think a lot of

33:02

these folks and a lot of the

33:04

institutional folks more broadly, they remain positive.

33:06

To give you one data set that

33:08

can give you like some high level

33:11

information from our desk, since January 20th,

33:13

about 60% of the volume that we

33:15

had coming from clients were to buy

33:17

Bitcoin and only 40% was to sell

33:20

Bitcoin. So what I'm trying to say

33:22

is that 60% was buy, 40% was

33:24

sell. This is a very common ratio

33:26

that folks in trading desks call, which

33:29

is the buy-sell ratio. So our buy-sell

33:31

ratio is 60 over 40, which is

33:33

one and a half. This is actually

33:35

relatively high. I mean, for large institutional

33:38

desks that have two-way flows, 1.5 is

33:40

not a small number. If you take

33:42

probably Theorem Solana, this number is a

33:44

lot closer to 0.9, to 1. Something.

33:47

While for Bitcoin, these flows have been

33:49

really strong. And this is basically spread

33:51

across... pretty much all the investors persona.

33:53

So like hedge funds, you can think

33:56

about retail and gators like you folks.

33:58

So very interesting to see. that from

34:00

the institutional side, we'll still see pretty

34:02

strong appetite. If you combine that with

34:05

the fact that ETF flows in January,

34:07

we're actually very strong. It was like

34:09

a little over $5 billion, just more

34:11

than what we saw in December. And

34:14

I think most of that ETF flow

34:16

is actually real money. I'm not sure

34:18

if we'd call it institutional, but at

34:20

least mainstream finance type of flow. So

34:23

the main question that I think a

34:25

lot of folks are trying to crackle

34:27

with is, okay, fine, so the institutions

34:29

are by, the EF flows are strong,

34:32

February is going to be a little

34:34

weaker, but at least until January they

34:36

were strong. So who's selling? This is

34:38

the main question we're having because I

34:41

mean, there's the expectation of a lot

34:43

of important use flow of locks, right?

34:45

So maybe we're going to see more

34:47

banks getting into the Bitcoin space with

34:50

the drop-off SAB one-to-one. there's the potential

34:52

of stable coin regulation in the US

34:54

that could take the segment to new

34:56

eyes like there's a lot to be

34:59

excited about but one thing that folks

35:01

are trading us and I spend a

35:03

lot of time on is analyzing the

35:05

Bitcoin order book and one thing that

35:08

you can see is that whenever Bitcoin

35:10

crosses the 100K level The order book

35:12

gets very tilted towards the sell side.

35:14

So I think this is mostly coming

35:17

from like general retail honestly, but I

35:19

feel like whenever we cross this barrier

35:21

of 100K, I think you're still having

35:23

these waves of more like general retail

35:26

coming to sell. And that has been

35:28

interesting to see. Overall though, to most

35:30

folks we talk to, you're obviously very

35:32

excited about Bitcoin. I think it's very

35:35

rare. to find an institutional investor, at

35:37

least the folks we talk to on

35:39

a more able or basis, who is

35:41

not yet optimistic about Bitcoin. You can

35:44

look into other signals as well, and

35:46

I want to drill too deep, but

35:48

if you look at like the options

35:50

market, we're also seeing some interesting signs

35:53

there. So like, if you look into

35:55

these more institutional, or perhaps let's call

35:57

smart money and quote-unquote smart money market,

35:59

I think there's reason to be excited.

36:02

Yeah, it's a fascinating, and I have the

36:04

same question. Who is selling? Some circles suggest

36:06

that it's some of the larger Bitcoin

36:08

holders that I've had positions for a really

36:11

long time. These are guys that were in

36:13

the bindingsings in 2012, 2013, 2014. And

36:15

also, given where they are right now in

36:17

their point of life, if you think

36:19

about you got to Bitcoin in your mid

36:21

to late 20s, and now you're in your mid

36:23

40s. and you probably look for a bigger

36:26

house, you got a bigger family, and so

36:28

I think this all kind of maps to

36:30

earlier big winners with sizable positions coming in,

36:32

and even though from a relative basis for

36:34

them, they might not be big, because they

36:37

might have thousands of coins, they might be

36:39

coming out to the market with 100 or

36:41

200 coins, but they're coming out in size

36:43

at time. The aggregate of their small relative

36:46

share becomes a somewhat material nominal

36:48

portion of the order book. I

36:50

think there's some data that supports that.

36:52

But that's fascinating. And it is really

36:54

interesting because your flow in many ways combines

36:56

that of OTCs. And I guess the only

36:59

ones that it wouldn't combine would be some

37:01

of the larger exchanges that wouldn't be these

37:03

retail aggregators. So I think that the delta

37:05

that we're not seeing is coming from to

37:07

your point these bigger exchanges and the order

37:10

books getting tilted on the broader markets. Yeah,

37:12

so many cogs. That's interesting. The final thing

37:14

I'll point out, I think, is that also

37:16

the other thing we need to keep in

37:18

mind a little bit, is that the Bitcoin

37:21

market is now operating at a very different

37:23

scale than it used to operate in the

37:25

past. So perhaps you give you a sense

37:27

on like kind of numbers. If you look

37:29

at Bitcoin in the spot market,

37:32

it used to trade, let's say in 2024,

37:34

when we were kind of ranging in

37:36

that 60K 60 something K range like

37:38

all the way until the election, but

37:40

who was trading like 10 to 20

37:43

billion dollars a day, which is a

37:45

fair mile, is a big number, but

37:47

that's where we were until things started

37:49

to take off around the election, after

37:52

the election, but who was training like

37:54

35, sometimes 50,000 dollars a day? I

37:56

mean, the type of flow that you need

37:58

coming in to move an... that can

38:00

trade $50 billion in a day is

38:02

also different, right? So like what I'm

38:05

trying to say is, to put that

38:07

a little bit into context, is that

38:09

$5 billion of ETF flows is awesome,

38:12

but when between trades, $10 billion dollars

38:14

in a day, perhaps that's enough to

38:16

move the price, and these are monthly

38:18

ETF flows, right? $5 billion in a

38:21

month versus $10 billion traded in a

38:23

day. But now we're trading a lot

38:25

more in a lot more. But at

38:28

least until like the end of January,

38:30

the market was exceptionally liquid. I mean,

38:32

some of Bitcoin's highest trading days were

38:34

happening in the beginning of 2025. So

38:37

it also might require more capital than

38:39

we are used to seeing in order

38:41

for us to break from these kind

38:44

of key price levels, right? So let's

38:46

see how things will play out for

38:48

here. That's a really interesting insight, David.

38:50

And that maps out for us as

38:53

well, because January was our biggest volume

38:55

month in the history of our business.

38:57

And it was multiples and multiples of

39:00

what it was pre-election. So basically what

39:02

you're seeing in the broader market, because

39:04

even on an aggregate basis, maps to

39:06

us that would be part of all

39:09

those aggregates. Now, I want to ask

39:11

you what's about your most recent research

39:13

piece, which was great. I found myself

39:16

nodding a lot when I was reading

39:18

a lot when I was reading it

39:20

was reading it. on your view, which

39:22

was that you foresee the rest of

39:25

the year being a gradual assent for

39:27

Bitcoin post-elections. And please keep me honest

39:29

if I'm interpreting that right. And you

39:32

mentioned really the point around how investors

39:34

were positioned leading up to the election.

39:36

And I think that the case you

39:38

were making, which I agree with, is

39:41

that the positioning was already done before

39:43

the election. And we had a post-election

39:45

bump which carried us from the 70s

39:48

to the 100s, which is where we're

39:50

trading now. So I think that what

39:52

you. We're trying to say that people

39:54

weren't already expecting this outcome. The outcome

39:57

happened and got validated. But from here

39:59

on out, we're going to need new

40:01

things and new money to take us

40:04

to those levels. And that's not going

40:06

to be a step function like we

40:08

saw in the election. So is that

40:10

right? Can you elaborate on that a

40:13

little bit and how you reach that

40:15

conclusion? Yeah, I think it makes sense.

40:17

Of course, there's always one or other

40:20

news flow item that can completely change

40:22

things. And some of these are kind

40:24

of relatively unpredictable unpredictable unpredictable unpredictable. Perhaps

40:26

the one that is on the table

40:29

right now is the strategic Bitcoin Reserve.

40:31

Like there's some things that can make

40:33

a binary change in the market. But

40:36

just putting those aside, I think you

40:38

put it well, Mauricio. I think what

40:40

took us from, let's say, the 60-70K

40:42

to 100K range is okay, this new

40:45

administration is good for a bit. And

40:47

that was like this general perception. And

40:49

we didn't need many actions, many actual...

40:51

regulations in place or many regulation locks

40:54

in place or things like that. It

40:56

was just the impression that this new

40:58

administration would be good for Bitcoin. And

41:01

that's what took us to 100K. But

41:03

what's going to take us above 100K?

41:05

Now we are beyond the perception camp.

41:07

I think now we need to start

41:10

seeing some of these things actually coming

41:12

to the market. And a lot of

41:14

them will actually take a while to

41:17

materialize. Like we had an amazing news

41:19

for the Bitcoin market that a lot

41:21

of folks are not paying enough attention

41:23

to, which is the removal of SAB

41:26

one to one. So, I mean, you

41:28

can have a potential block of banks

41:30

starting to get involved with Bitcoin a

41:33

lot more directly than they have been

41:35

in the past. This should be a

41:37

major reason for excitement in the industry,

41:39

but I think we're now at the

41:42

phase when just telling me this is

41:44

not enough. I actually want to start

41:46

to see Big Bank A or Big

41:49

Bank B actually starting to... build that

41:51

operation and those flows coming. So I

41:53

think that's basic. where we are, I

41:55

think we need to start to actually

41:58

see some of these things taking shape.

42:00

We're going to see a bunch of

42:02

market structure improvements, perhaps ETFs will now

42:05

be allowed to do in-kind creations and

42:07

redemptions. I don't want to bother you

42:09

with the details, but that can lead

42:11

to more efficient markets. But I think

42:14

that a lot of these things first

42:16

they take time, right? Of course we

42:18

have an administration that is willing to

42:21

make things happen. But there is a

42:23

legislative process after you approve new legislation.

42:25

There's a rulemaking and kind of implementation

42:27

process that things need to go through.

42:30

And I think we're going through that.

42:32

So that's why I think perhaps 2025

42:34

is going to look more like a

42:37

gradual rally than we have in the

42:39

past. But to be honest, we never

42:41

know man. One thing I've learned about

42:43

this market is that it's always an

42:46

expert in proving us wrong. And as

42:48

I mentioned, there are these binary events,

42:50

like the strategic Bitcoin Reserve, that could

42:53

shift the mood pretty quickly. So I

42:55

wouldn't be surprised if the kind of

42:57

depiction I'm making is not right. But

42:59

the thing that I'm pretty confident about

43:02

is that everything we're talking about are

43:04

positive useful items. It's very hard to

43:06

see something endogenous from the industry. that

43:09

is looking that would hurt price significantly.

43:11

Of course, these things can always come,

43:13

and I think the main risk that

43:15

people are paying attention to right now

43:18

is macro. So like on the macro

43:20

side, there is a certainty around trade

43:22

policy, fiscal policy, central banking, independence, inflation,

43:25

like the macro scenario is a little

43:27

bit murkier than it was probably six

43:29

or seven months ago, and crypto can

43:31

get dragged down and Bitcoin can be

43:34

dragged down just from the correlation angle.

43:36

But as long as on what depends

43:38

on the industry itself, I think we're

43:41

on up pretty good shape. That's great.

43:43

I think just by looking at what

43:45

the shiny yellow rock is doing, we

43:47

probably are out to a good next

43:50

few months or years in the Bitcoin

43:52

space I think strains me in this

43:54

potential part of the microcycle goal could

43:57

be acting as a bad herring for

43:59

future Bitcoin price action which it sounds

44:01

a little bit crazy to say but

44:03

more people know to run for gold

44:06

when things are uncertain and then they

44:08

do to run for Bitcoin but eventually

44:10

Bitcoiners catch up to the goal and

44:13

just imagine The size of the relative

44:15

flows that must have been going into

44:17

gold recently to move by 20 trillion

44:19

dollar asset 50% higher over the course

44:22

of God knows what, of 12 months

44:24

or something, it's been this rally, it's

44:26

been up 50% and it's a massive

44:29

massive asset. And year to date, goal

44:31

is up by almost the entire market

44:33

cap of Bitcoin. Just year to date,

44:35

what insane, for most people listening, go

44:38

look at the chart and go look

44:40

at the difference, the size of these

44:42

markets. So the point David was making

44:44

earlier, it takes a mountain to move

44:47

the price goal and it's been moving

44:49

a lot. So that's fascinating. Before I

44:51

let you go, do you have a

44:54

view that you can share on where

44:56

we end up the year, Bitcoin price

44:58

wise? I think in terms of price,

45:00

I can give you like honestly, I

45:03

think it would be just a random

45:05

yes. Most folks I talk to, I

45:07

don't think they would be surprised to

45:10

see the Bitcoin price at something around

45:12

150, 160K at some point over the

45:14

next 12 to 18 months. You can

45:16

see some of these things even in

45:19

the options markets. You can look at

45:21

like Bitcoin auctions, open interest by strike,

45:23

right? So you can look into the

45:26

options market just to try to see

45:28

where folks are placing their bats. So

45:30

right now, the most liquid options contract

45:32

is the one that expires at the

45:35

end of the quarter. So at the

45:37

end of March. And here, most of

45:39

the open interest is in calls, which

45:42

means these are like expressions of a

45:44

positive expression on the Bitcoin price. and

45:46

a lot of the strike is in

45:48

the 120, 110 and 150K press. level.

45:51

So like you can see that the

45:53

options market is still pretty tilted and

45:55

positioned for like topside structures. I don't

45:58

think like a 150 160K price would

46:00

scare anybody or feel like very weird

46:02

compared to most of the investors and

46:04

folks that I talked to. So yeah,

46:07

that's the way I tried to think

46:09

about it. I mean, coming up with

46:11

the prices hard, but I just tried

46:14

to see what are the folks comfort

46:16

levels. And that seems to be a

46:18

pretty common one. The other thing I

46:20

highlight is that this 115-160-K will be

46:23

an interesting milestone as well because that

46:25

would be about 15 to 16% of

46:27

the gold market cap. As an Austrian

46:30

economist, a lot of folks who studied

46:32

this market and economic history know that

46:34

silver has been about one six of

46:36

gold's market cap for a very long

46:39

time. And this was a pretty constant

46:41

ratio until we started to mess with

46:43

the monetary system like... 150 years ago,

46:46

it would be interesting to see Bitcoin

46:48

get to that level, right? So I

46:50

think that's a cool milestone that I'm

46:52

looking forward to. Now she put us

46:55

around $3 trillion, I think it's 60-something

46:57

with $1 trillion, where $100 now or

46:59

about $2 trillion, $1.50 would put it

47:02

around $3 trillion. Exactly. Yeah, roughly 16%

47:04

of gold's market cap. I'm looking forward

47:06

to that $20. Well, that was great.

47:08

David, I wish we had another hour,

47:11

but we had another hour, but we're

47:13

coming up at the top of the

47:15

top of the top of the top

47:18

of the top of the show now.

47:20

Where can our listeners learn more about

47:22

your work and about Falcon X? Yeah,

47:24

so you can look for Falcon X.

47:27

We're on Twitter. You can look at

47:29

Falcon x.io. We have an insights page

47:31

where some of our research is shared.

47:34

I'm also on Twitter, D. Lawant, D.

47:36

L-A-W-A-N-T. My last name. So I post

47:38

some charts or like some tidbit analysis

47:40

here or there. And I'm always happy

47:43

to talk about Bitcoin. So if you

47:45

want to reach out. Brilliant. Well, thank

47:47

you for making the time to come

47:50

by. I know you've got a very

47:52

busy schedule and no shortage of things

47:54

to write about through your institutional clients.

47:56

So thank you for making the time.

47:59

And I will bring you back within

48:01

some time so you can give us

48:03

more updates on what the institutions are

48:06

up to. Sounds good man. Thank you

48:08

so much. This is a pleasure. Likewise.

48:10

See you soon. I've always been very

48:12

interested in how life experiences shape

48:14

who we end up becoming. In

48:16

David's case, he experienced hyperinflation at

48:18

a young age growing up in

48:20

Brazil, but it wasn't until he

48:22

was living in the US and

48:25

experienced the 2007 financial crisis in

48:27

the flesh. that he started asking

48:29

questions about money. Then he took

48:31

an interest on gold and later

48:33

found Bitcoin. He was able to

48:35

connect the dots between what he

48:37

experienced in Brazil and later in

48:39

the US. David did a great

48:41

job breaking down how institutions participate

48:43

in the Bitcoin space and how their

48:45

needs are different from those of retail

48:47

investors or individuals. Prime brokerages play an

48:50

integral role in the Bitcoin market infrastructure.

48:52

and we will continue to see them

48:54

grow and flourish as more institutions come

48:56

into the space. Make sure to check

48:59

out David and Falconics as they always

49:01

put out some great research content. Thank

49:03

you all for listening and we'll be

49:05

back soon with another great guest. If

49:18

you enjoyed this because of Bitcoin episode, I would

49:21

be very grateful for the five seconds it

49:23

would take you to drop us a review

49:25

and give us a rating on your favorite

49:27

podcasting platform. This will really help us reach

49:30

even more listeners. And if you'd like to

49:32

learn more about Bitcoin, be sure to check

49:34

out our newsletter by subscribing at ledn.io. That's

49:36

ledden.io. Again this was Vorizio di Artolomeo. Stay

49:39

tuned for our next episode. And until then,

49:41

much hoo chagrac hoo chagrassias, chau chau chau

49:43

chau chauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauchauch