0:02

Bitcoin is the only

0:05

instantly tradable asset in the world

0:07

and And it's on the internet,

0:09

anybody with an internet connection in

0:11

any country in the world

0:13

can get access to it.

0:15

And And it's fractionalizable, here you've

0:17

got an asset recordable on

0:19

this ledger system that is

0:21

instantaneously transferable anybody can put

0:23

10 % of their wages in.

0:25

And so what it means

0:27

is rises together as opposed

0:30

to, to, well, a bunch of

0:32

of rich people, they get rich and

0:34

the poor people are just wage

0:36

slaves. But changes that equation. You're

0:40

listening to Because of Bitcoin, a podcast

0:42

that shares the personal stories of

0:44

how Bitcoin is having a real

0:46

impact in people's lives. Including mine.

0:48

I'm your host Mauricio Diharto Lomeo, the -founder and

0:51

CSO of Let It. And without further

0:53

ado, let's get started with today's

0:55

story. Let's get started. Even

1:06

in free economies like the United

1:08

States, their government is still pretty

1:10

involved in setting targets for the

1:12

economy. In other words, the government

1:14

has the ability to press on the

1:16

gas or hit the brakes on its economy

1:19

artificially when it feels appropriate to do

1:21

so. We saw this during the

1:23

recent pandemic. When the economy shot

1:25

down, they stimulated it by sending checks

1:27

to people. When the economy

1:29

overheated, they jacked up interest rates and

1:31

slowed down inflation. Their influence

1:33

touches everything from grocery bills

1:35

to gold prices. Because

1:37

of this, it's important to understand

1:39

the lens through which the views the

1:41

economy. And that's

1:44

macroeconomics. Understanding the broader

1:46

trends in the market can help

1:48

you identify investment opportunities and

1:50

timing. And people have

1:52

done that better over time than Raoul Pal. In

1:55

this episode, Rao shares his journey and

1:57

insights that have shaped his understanding of

1:59

global markets. from his early days

2:01

growing up in a business savvy family

2:03

to his illustrious career at Goldman

2:05

Sachs and beyond. We explored

2:08

the parallels between past financial crisis today's

2:10

crypto landscape, the evolution of his

2:12

investment strategies, and his bold predictions

2:14

for the future of digital assets.

2:17

Whether you're a seasoned investor or

2:19

just curious about the forces driving today's

2:21

financial world, I know you'll gain

2:23

valuable perspectives and actionable insights. So

2:26

sit back, relax, and get ready to

2:28

unfuck your future with Ralp out. The

2:33

man, the legend. How are you, Raoul? I'm good, my

2:35

friend. How are you? I'm great. Thank you for

2:37

coming on the show. I've been really looking forward to

2:39

our chat and now that we're both Cayman-based, Hopefully this

2:41

is the first of many. Yeah, although

2:43

on two different islands today, otherwise could have done this

2:46

in person, but there we go. The

2:48

next one is shoot the do in person, but

2:50

it's your first time on the show and

2:52

I don't know if you're familiar with

2:54

the show. So way I like to start

2:56

is by asking a little bit about the

2:58

story behind what you see today. And

3:00

I always like starting this show by asking

3:02

my guests about their upbringing. So how it

3:04

like growing up in the PAL family and

3:07

was money or finance a big theme

3:09

in your family? So

3:11

grew up with an Indian father and a

3:13

Dutch mother who met on a blind

3:15

date in England. And we lived

3:17

mainly just outside London, but

3:19

we also lived for a period

3:21

of time in India. My

3:24

father's background, he was in

3:26

marketing. so worked for Xerox and

3:28

ran European marketing for Xerox when

3:30

Xerox was a huge company in

3:32

the late 70s, early 80s. early 80s.

3:34

And then he had a few

3:36

jobs before setting up his own

3:38

kind of exec search firm and kind

3:40

of management consulting business. So

3:43

we grew up

3:45

around business, talking about

3:47

business. You know, the breakfast

3:49

table or lunch table or the dinner

3:51

table. There'll be a lot of that.

3:53

So much so that became a mentor to

3:55

a lot of my friends when they're

3:57

like, what am I supposed to do

3:59

for a living? Some of. one going

4:01

to university, and his advice generally was,

4:03

well, if you're a likable person, become

4:05

a salesman. because you can

4:07

always sell something. So So grew

4:09

up around that. And then

4:11

when I was choosing my career,

4:13

I'd gone and studied economics and law at

4:15

a terrible university, the only one

4:18

that would accept me because I discovered cars,

4:20

girls, pubs, all of that stuff.

4:22

So only one university accepted me down

4:24

in Plymouth, but I graduated decently

4:26

well there. and I graduated right

4:28

into a recession. 1990 and

4:30

I remember it was dad's birthday and

4:32

a friend of his said to

4:34

me well, what you want to do now?

4:37

for a career. And I said, listen, I

4:40

like marketing, I had been

4:42

interviewing at the typical FMCG marketing

4:44

firms, Procter & Gamble all of that,

4:46

but really finance was what interested

4:48

me because the eighties had just

4:50

happened. You know, it was all of

4:52

these people. drinking champagne

4:54

and driving Porsches. And There

4:56

was the film Wall Street. it was really cultural.

4:59

And I'm like, you know, I really want to do that. And

5:02

I'd written my dissertation at university about junk

5:04

bonds. And, uh, the guy looked at we and

5:06

said, it's a pretty easy decision route.

5:08

He said, You can

5:10

go and work in

5:13

marketing for Mars, fantastic goods

5:15

company. and you'll get

5:17

free Mars bars. Or you can

5:19

go and work for a bank and you'll get free money. I

5:22

mean, so true, right? this

5:24

arbitrage between the same job. selling

5:27

product And one would

5:29

pay 10X 10x what the other one

5:31

paid. So took me a

5:33

while to get there, but eventually into the city in London.

5:36

and then eventually into Goldman and then running hedge funds and

5:38

all that stuff. Wow. that's brilliant.

5:40

brilliant. I see a lot of see a lot of I

5:42

had a similar upbringing experience. My dad was also the

5:44

mentor for a lot of my friends and my

5:46

dad was a big salesman. He would always say, sales

5:48

is where it's at. My dad used to say,

5:50

sales is the bloodline of a business. So if

5:52

you have a great business and no sales, you have

5:55

nothing. If you have sales and no business, you

5:57

can make it. because it's the of

5:59

blood that makes the system run.

6:01

so it's fascinating to see

6:03

people have similar experiences. You mentioned

6:05

Goldman. And before you started Real

6:07

Vision, which I believe was a

6:09

decade ago, you had

6:11

an illustrious career in finance. And

6:14

one of the things that we discussed

6:16

briefly and I've read about is your

6:18

story and your involvement around long -term capital

6:20

management. And when I heard you talk

6:22

about it and I was reading your

6:24

story in Vision, I started getting a lot

6:26

of deja vu And it was very reminiscent

6:28

of what we just experienced with FDX. And

6:31

I wanted to ask you, for

6:33

those who are maybe not too familiar

6:35

with the story, could you just briefly

6:37

describe how you identified the risk

6:39

that long -term capital management was posing

6:42

to the industry when you were

6:44

working at Goldman Sachs? It was actually before

6:46

Goldman when I was at NatWest. They were

6:48

my biggest clients And I was in equity

6:50

derivatives. And what they were

6:52

doing was putting in trades which

6:54

were like Shell, the

6:56

company trades in London and Holland,

6:58

Unilever, London and Holland, Hong

7:01

Kong, Shanghai Bank, London and

7:03

Hong Kong. And they

7:05

were the spread between the

7:07

two. People might think of it

7:09

now as arbitraging the Bitcoin ETF

7:11

with microstrategies. But were many

7:14

hedge funds into these trades. But

7:16

these guys came in. And let's

7:18

say I was dealing with the

7:20

next largest hedge fund, whoever it

7:22

may have been at the time,

7:24

they would have done $50 or

7:26

$100 million of the trade. Long -term

7:28

capital were putting a billion dollars in

7:30

each one of these trades. They

7:32

then were doing volatility arbitrage because

7:34

there was a structure of pension

7:36

funds buying long -dated volatility for guaranteed

7:38

fund products. It had made long

7:40

-term volatility higher than where it

7:42

actually traded. It It was abnormally high

7:44

at a premium. And

7:46

so they put these

7:48

gigantic volatility selling strategies

7:50

on. And again, in

7:53

preposterous size, I mean, unheard of size.

7:55

So I, as a salesman, loved it. They

7:57

were my biggest client. I was making a

7:59

shit ton of money. I was making all

8:01

the commissions from that, but were

8:03

also doing this not just with

8:05

us, most banks, and then doing it

8:07

in fixed income and foreign exchange

8:09

and other markets even size. But

8:11

we didn't really understand that. And

8:13

then I went on a stag weekend with a

8:15

whole group of friends to Kilkenny Ireland. and on

8:17

a boat fishing drinking and chatting. And I'm like,

8:19

to a friend of mine, who's the biggest client?

8:22

goes, long -term capital. He said, much have you

8:24

got? He goes, I I don't know, we've got

8:26

a billion or $2 billion. So

8:28

So was at Salomon. Then the next guy asked

8:30

him, he he was a JP Morgan, I think

8:32

it was. that how much have you got? He's

8:34

like, yeah, got probably a couple of billion. 3

8:37

billion or so, and I'm like, okay, well,

8:39

well. at NatWest, we probably

8:41

had $4 four billion because obviously was was

8:43

a better salesman than them. We

8:45

had larger size. and

8:47

I knew other banks had some preposterous

8:49

size. Then friend. was

8:52

the head of boom trading at Deutsche Bank.

8:55

And I'm like, who's biggest client? He's

8:57

like, -term capital. I'm like, much have we got?

8:59

He He goes, don't know, $100 know, know,

9:02

$100 billion, $50 $50 billion, whatever the

9:04

stupid number was. Now, long-term capital the time

9:06

were running about $2 billion $3 billion.

9:08

So So you've got you've to understand the

9:10

obscene amount of leverage. And this

9:12

has been facilitated by the prime-broking of

9:15

banks. I actually came back from

9:17

the stag weekend and went to speak to the risk

9:19

manager at NatWest said, this is a problem.

9:21

So we started trying to get out of

9:23

this because I was worried, you know. There

9:25

was just too much leverage. and

9:28

it was all too opaque. Just

9:30

nobody knew, no risk manager, any bank

9:32

knew what was on other banks And

9:34

-term capital was so big a client,

9:36

they would kind of bully you into

9:38

non -disclosure agreements and stuff like that.

9:40

And then then I across to Goldman

9:42

and the Asian crisis happened. And as

9:44

the Asian crisis happened, What

9:46

happened was liquidity started disappearing from

9:48

the system system. the trades that these

9:51

guys had on started widening and they

9:53

started adding to them because they thought

9:55

they were the smartest people in

9:57

the world and they added and added

9:59

and then... Then smaller funds

10:01

started blowing up and

10:03

then all of these positions, which

10:05

were the same positions everybody had,

10:07

all puke. and the spreads just went

10:09

super wide and the whole thing

10:11

blew up. It blew up so

10:14

badly that the Fed had to cut rates

10:16

from one hedge fund. And I've

10:18

learned in my career that if

10:20

anybody is the biggest client of

10:22

the street terms of lending or

10:24

borrowing, it's generally a problem. And

10:26

I had seen that before, Bering Brothers

10:28

in the early 90s, the

10:30

biggest trader of Nikkei volatility in the world

10:32

was this guy called Nick Nick

10:35

Leeson became famous for blowing up bearing

10:37

brothers, the oldest bank in the world.

10:39

And same story ad

10:42

infinitum. And so

10:44

once the unraveling started

10:47

happening in 2022, was only one

10:49

I realized that there

10:51

was only one borrower basically

10:53

all of crypto, which was three

10:55

arrows capital. And nobody knew.

10:57

Everybody had one counterparty and nobody knew

10:59

there was only one counterparty. You'd be

11:01

proud to know that three came by

11:03

our desk three times asking for a borrow,

11:05

we rejected them all three times because a

11:07

very simple requirement we have for institutional

11:09

counterparts is financial statements. And they kept

11:11

trying to give us this one page

11:13

document signed by Kyle saying, trust me,

11:16

I got it. And we said, we're going

11:18

to need more than that. And they

11:20

said, you're the only lender not lending

11:22

to us. And we said, we'll wear that with

11:24

pride. But still feel the

11:26

ramifications, right? Because the whole market

11:28

blows up and lending

11:30

and nobody's borrowing. and And it's a real

11:32

mess, right? And it It hard for people

11:34

who had good processes in place. It

11:36

was a tough time for everybody. And that's

11:38

what happens in this. I remember having

11:40

conversations with our clients that were withdrawing from Ledin to

11:42

to take them to Celsius because they were

11:44

paying 12 and we were paying nine are stable cost

11:46

savings accounts. And I would say, this is

11:48

your money. Take it, please. But I

11:50

can show you where I get my nine.

11:52

I borrowed from you at nine. I led my

11:54

clients at 12. 12. My rates are posted.

11:57

You money. can see my spread. Ask

11:59

them how. getting 12 because I don't see

12:01

them lending at 12. 12. In fact, they're

12:03

lending at 1 % because they're doing

12:05

all sorts of things with your collateral. So

12:07

So So ask the questions, but to your

12:09

point, we are a zero environment, people are

12:11

starving for yield, asset are flying, and they

12:13

just go for the incremental next best thing, not

12:15

knowing that they're taking an insurmountable mountain

12:17

of risk for that incremental percent. It's

12:19

really hard to get people to think

12:21

diligently when things are riding high. Well,

12:23

things because what happens is everybody loses their

12:25

minds. So looks for

12:27

the cheapest borrow, the cheapest capital without

12:30

questioning why is it cheap? know,

12:33

it's the people who want to lend

12:35

to you the least who you actually want

12:37

to borrow money from. That That rings true.

12:39

And it's easier said than done to stay

12:42

in a time of a rational exuberance, much

12:44

easier said than done. You know, looking

12:46

back at long term capital, it was a

12:48

fight to lower rates because we're all

12:50

competing for this business. And it's very difficult

12:52

as a business to say, we're not

12:54

going to do that. We're not going to give

12:56

give you these prime terms. We're not going to

12:58

give you this swap terms because then you

13:00

are definitely not going to get the

13:02

business. And because of the

13:04

profit motive, you end up doing

13:06

it. Kudos to you for though you were

13:08

in sales and even though identifying them

13:10

and basically dismantling those positions hurt

13:12

your own book. I think it's very

13:14

commendable. Well, I made the money all

13:16

over again on the unwind because Goldman, I

13:18

got called by on a Sunday I money was

13:21

in New York and I got called

13:23

by David Rogers, who was the partner

13:25

who ran equity derivatives at Goldman. He

13:27

called me up and said, come and

13:29

see me at the Trump Plaza Hotel or

13:31

whatever it was. So I up there on

13:33

a Sunday in New York and he's like, meet

13:36

John Merriweather, meet all of the partners

13:38

of long capital. It was the weekend

13:40

after they blew up. And they're like,

13:42

listen, we just want your advice on

13:45

how going to unwind this. And

13:47

so Dave was seconded

13:49

to long capital to unwind then

13:52

an auction for all of these trades to be be unwound, of

13:54

which managed to do a ton of those too. So to

13:56

put the trades on and unwind the trades. So it

13:58

made quite a lot of ton money in my career

14:00

from that. Well, hey, doing

14:02

the right thing pays off and And happy

14:04

that that's how it worked out for you. So

14:07

So did all of this in TranFi. When and

14:09

how do you find Bitcoin? So So 2008 happened

14:11

and I I was lucky enough to

14:14

see it coming and I was

14:16

writing about it in my research service,

14:18

Global Investor, which I've been writing now

14:20

for 20 years. And the heart

14:22

of that in a debt crisis was that

14:24

collateral was being rehypothecated. So that means

14:26

the same collateral is being reused,

14:28

right? Same as long -term capital management,

14:30

same as three-hours capital, it's the same shit. But

14:32

this was at the entire banking

14:34

system level. So So collateral

14:36

was being reused. Things like US

14:38

bonds were being repledged up

14:41

to 40 times, insanity. And

14:43

nobody really knew. It was so

14:45

opaque. So So it

14:47

blows up, What happened was

14:49

there's not enough collateral to go around

14:51

everything pukes. and the And the to come

14:53

in and debase currency essentially make the collateral

14:55

look like it's rising in value and

14:58

started protecting it because the housing market

15:00

had done it. all sorts of aspects had

15:02

done it. Then Then 2012 happened and

15:04

most people in the US or the

15:06

Americas don't really understand 2012. 2012,

15:09

but the whole of fucking almost blew up. up. Every

15:11

single government almost blew up in

15:13

Europe. So So government bond

15:15

in Europe started dislocating and

15:17

banks were blowing up. real

15:20

estate markets were imploding. It

15:22

was a follow on. it was the same same rolling

15:24

crisis. Well, Well, it was

15:26

kind of the Asian debt crisis rolled

15:28

into another debt. It's all the same

15:31

excess leverage that washes around the system that

15:33

built up in the 90s and 80s. and

15:35

80s. But But Europe, it was a government

15:37

level and you start to see wrench

15:39

spreads. Portuguese spreads. Then

15:42

some Eventually blows up. up. Cypress

15:44

blows up. up. I

15:46

am in Spain. I have

15:48

to have generator and tin food. I thought

15:50

we were to lose the banks. The

15:53

ECB forced Spain because Spain is

15:55

a very proud nation. They

15:57

forced them to take billion one week. billion one

15:59

way. weekend a bailout. They

16:02

may not have done it otherwise, we had

16:04

our entire banking system. Many

16:06

of my parents' friends friends friends all blew

16:08

up over this. Banks just confiscated

16:10

money. But the signal for me was

16:12

Cyprus. Cyprus, this small

16:15

island, its banking system

16:17

was wildly over leveraged. It blew

16:19

up and instead of bailing out

16:21

the banks, US style and

16:23

UK style, the

16:25

EU said, you know what? We're

16:27

going to do something different. We're We're

16:29

to bail the depositors. So there's

16:31

people thinking, oh, my

16:33

money in a bank is my money.

16:35

And the EU said, no, we we

16:38

share the losses amongst the creditors and

16:40

the debtors. And you were guaranteed for

16:42

100,000 ,000 euros and anything above that.

16:44

So imagine you are a gas station and

16:46

you might have several million euros, but

16:48

but you're making way for thin margins.

16:50

Several million euros in your bank

16:52

account gone. I had friends who had

16:54

sold a house and were taking

16:56

the money out, gone. And

16:59

what I realized is nobody owns

17:01

anything in the financial system. I found

17:03

out that at the epicenter of

17:05

all of the government bond market is

17:07

the DTCC and Euroclear, which are the

17:09

huge opaque pools of clearing, custody, collateral

17:11

management. And within that, you actually don't

17:14

own your assets. And at personal level,

17:16

you don't own your own assets. I'm like, okay,

17:18

this is so bad that I went

17:20

the world trying to start the world's

17:22

safest bank with a couple of

17:24

famous hedge fund guys and a few family offices. And

17:27

we went to Singapore, Switzerland, the UK

17:29

and the US. And we almost opened

17:32

a Texas trust bank. And we had

17:34

the ex -chairman of the FDIC was going

17:36

to be the chairman of the bank.

17:38

We We a bank to buy. we

17:40

went to the Dallas Fed said, here's

17:43

our plan, expecting it to be approved.

17:45

And what our idea was, was

17:47

no leverage whatsoever. So any deposit will

17:49

be matched with a treasury's direct with a federal

17:51

reserve. So we went to the Dallas Fed said,

17:53

could bank hold treasury's direct with you? Yes, of

17:55

course. Even for customers? for Yes, of

17:57

course. Yes, of course. OK. we

17:59

going to start this non -leveraged bank. And they

18:02

said, this is a really good idea. And

18:04

we said, thank you. We think it's

18:06

really needed. And And said, and ever going to

18:08

give you a a license. And we said, why?

18:10

They said, because you'll take all the

18:12

deposits from the banking system. I'm

18:15

like, huh. For those not

18:17

too familiar with how the banking

18:19

system works, I think what you were

18:21

trying to do is basically put an

18:23

override on FDIC insurance and the whole thing

18:25

because there will be no risk. Yeah,

18:27

I mean, a non-fractional reserve bank. And some ways, I

18:29

would say that that's partially what Caitlin Long

18:31

trying to recreate. She's tried the same

18:34

thing and And they've said same answer. She's hitting the

18:36

same wall. And so Caitlin's, yeah, exactly

18:38

exactly the to do the same thing.

18:40

We went down that route. it

18:42

didn't work. So I was writing

18:44

this up in Global Macro Investor it was

18:46

a fascinating story of the time.

18:48

And one of my clients, a

18:51

guy called Emile Wood and another

18:53

one called Chad Cascarilla, they were running

18:55

a hedge fund in New York and

18:57

started mining Bitcoin because they had free electricity

18:59

in their offices. So talking

19:01

2012, I'm writing this story

19:03

up. By 2013, Chad

19:05

and Emile had set up Itbit, exchange,

19:07

both in Singapore and the US, which

19:09

is now Paxos. And Emile

19:12

said, I think your answer is Bitcoin.

19:14

The Cyprus thing, Bitcoin spiked. And that

19:16

was the time I got in

19:18

and I bought Bitcoin at $200

19:20

in 2013. And then I wrote

19:22

the first ever macro piece on Bitcoin

19:24

how to value it back in 2013.

19:26

I can't quite believe I did

19:28

that, but I did. So So that's

19:30

been my journey. then with Real Vision,

19:32

which we started in 2014, in 2014,

19:34

I knew that we had to

19:36

educate people in the fragilities of

19:38

the system and how to navigate it

19:40

and what to do. And they

19:42

were not getting advice by the

19:44

centralized people. And And Occupy Wall Street shown

19:46

us that they'd lost faith in the

19:48

middlemen, the gatekeepers. And so Real

19:50

was there to democratize. And the very first

19:52

video we had was about Bitcoin. And we

19:54

carried that story. We've had every single

19:56

OG in the history of crypto. people that

19:59

people don't even know of anymore, but true

20:01

OGs like Wenceslas Caseras have been on

20:03

RealVision. Barry Silver was on all of the

20:05

time, was was guy a called Trace Mayers,

20:07

who's disappeared as well. He was on RealVision

20:09

educating people what Bitcoin is. Chad Kaskarilla

20:11

did a whole series on how to invest

20:13

in Bitcoin, how to think about blockchain.

20:15

So we took many, many people down that

20:18

journey. That's fascinating. basically, RealVision is an

20:20

OG institution in the sense that you guys,

20:22

you've done a lot of that first

20:24

ever research you've brought on a lot of

20:26

those OG, like people that the school

20:28

of 2014 or later won't really remember, guys

20:30

like Wenceslas, guys like Trace, they were

20:32

almost like the Michael Sailors of today back

20:34

then. They were revered by the community

20:37

and for whatever reasons have kind of dropped

20:39

off the scene. Similar to even Andreas.

20:41

Right? Andreas was another example. And he's been

20:43

on RealVision a few times. They've all

20:45

been. Yeah. Well, we'll get into this later,

20:47

but a lot of our clients who

20:49

are OGs are very long -term subscribers to

20:51

RealVision. And I don't think that's a surprise,

20:53

but well, I'm going to save that

20:56

for later because there's a lot of overlap

20:58

even in our thinking. We set out

21:00

to build the safest financial services platform ever

21:02

because we could use the transparency of

21:04

Bitcoin as the backbone. And that in many

21:06

ways is what led them to us

21:08

today. And that was my idea because the

21:10

idea I had was you can own

21:12

the collateral and it's provable. Correct. So we

21:14

do that today with custody loans. And

21:17

I see a future where today our loans,

21:19

we have a product where the collateral

21:21

just sits in custody and doesn't get rehypothecated.

21:23

And I think that we can even

21:25

go further down in the future to show

21:27

people on chain proof that the collateral

21:29

is just to be rehypothecated. Right now it's

21:31

in our agreement, but we're working to get

21:33

it such that it's shown on the

21:36

chain and so that there's absolutely no question

21:38

of where the collateral is. that's what

21:40

exactly I saw in Bitcoin was this. I'm

21:42

like, everything can be now proven where

21:44

the collateral is and who owns it. That

21:46

couldn't happen in the traditional financial system.

21:48

And by the way, we could probably put

21:50

stocks and bonds and everything else on

21:52

this, like everything will go on. That's what

21:55

I saw in 2013. I can't quite

21:57

believe I did, but that's what I did.

22:00

That's still the same direction we're headed in.

22:02

It's brilliant and congratulations on all of

22:04

the success. You should be very proud.

22:06

I want ask you about your evolution

22:09

since getting into Bitcoin because been changes

22:11

since 2014. In November

22:13

2020, you famously said, this was on

22:15

Twitter or interview that I read, that

22:17

you had 70 % of your

22:19

liquid net worth in BTC. And

22:21

as of recently, you have

22:23

reported that your allocation

22:25

is about sub 10% altcoins, including smoking

22:28

chicken fish and doge. And that's

22:30

about 90 % Solana. I

22:32

don't know if that's changed, but you're also

22:34

a believer in Sui. So my question

22:36

to you is, are you fully out of

22:38

Bitcoin now? And if so, why is that? I

22:41

own one Bitcoin and it's nothing to

22:44

do with is good or bad.

22:46

Of course, it's amazing. I'm

22:49

not after the attributes of

22:51

the perfect pristine collateral, which a a I

22:53

coined back in 2020. I'm not

22:55

after that right now. What

22:57

I'm after is to unfuck my

23:00

future, is to make as much wealth

23:02

as I can. And so listen, I've

23:04

been in financial markets for 30 -odd

23:06

years and my job is to

23:08

try and outperform. And so I made

23:10

the switch in November 2020 towards

23:12

Ethereum And ended up being 75 % Ethereum

23:15

for 2021. That was

23:17

a home run. Then I

23:19

remained Ethereum And then in

23:21

June 2022 when three

23:23

blew up, I started buying

23:25

Solana a bit early, but I I

23:27

started allocating to Solana. then I got rid

23:29

of the rest of my Bitcoin and

23:31

added it into Sol, mainly a bit of

23:34

Ether I think. And then as I figured

23:36

out what was happening with Firedancer, where

23:38

it was all going, looking at the

23:40

Solana cross against ETH, Solana cross against Bitcoin,

23:42

I realized it going to break out.

23:44

So I went all in in Sol

23:46

because I had confidence because it it

23:48

had been battle tested. It had gone down

23:50

to eight bucks. It was still

23:52

thriving as an ecosystem. And so I

23:54

thought here was trade. Now was another home run,

23:57

luckily. I seem to have got these asset

23:59

allocations pretty right. then then on the

24:01

board of the SWE Foundation, so I have been

24:03

given tokens there, but I actually started

24:05

using the same process I did with

24:07

Ethereum and Solana, at the cross rates,

24:09

looking at the charts, looking at the

24:11

adoption, seeing all of this, thinking, you

24:14

know what, this might well be the

24:16

next chosen one, the Solana of

24:18

this cycle. So I started allocating more

24:20

money to that. So I'm probably in,

24:23

or even less in memes

24:25

and stuff like that,

24:27

probably 20 % maybe in SWE,

24:29

and then basically balance in

24:32

in Solana. in Solana. And

24:34

then the other thing I have

24:36

been doing is top slicing my Solana

24:38

profits buying high end art NFTs. Wow, that's

24:40

brilliant. And you go through a a

24:42

lot of this on Real Vision. So been

24:44

very public in my journey. I I vision.

24:46

mean, I I about it in Global Macroinvestor,

24:48

which is this serious research service for kind

24:50

of high net worths, family offices, hedge

24:52

funds. That's why I'm over in Little

24:54

right now, because I write it a

24:56

month, that's the DNA of everything. Then

24:58

it spills out into Real Vision Pro Macro. It

25:00

spills out some of my Twitter

25:02

conversations. And it's just kind of less

25:04

detail. So then my YouTube, but Ralp, I'll The Journey

25:07

Man, And occasionally I'll catch everybody up

25:09

with, OK, less this is where I

25:11

am. And I do a a big,

25:13

long piece. So So on an equal

25:15

playing field. But generally, yeah, it comes

25:17

from GMI and then out. I'm a big

25:19

fan, always have been I found you many

25:21

years ago. And we'll get into what

25:23

everyone can get and learn from

25:25

your show. But But put out an

25:27

immense amount of value, I would say

25:29

in alpha, practice and experience, not just

25:31

some guy staring at charts, you've gone and done

25:33

it. And that's what I I really

25:35

love about your research. I have

25:37

a question here that we can get

25:39

some defined goalposts on some of these things

25:42

that are concepts. You've said that Sui

25:44

and Solana about five to 10X of upside

25:46

the long term. I think you said

25:48

this in a recent Drinks with Ralp. And I

25:50

guess my question is, what does

25:52

long term mean in the context of

25:54

macro the business cycle? Is there Is is

25:56

there a term for that? Without getting

25:58

into price predictions from. From

26:00

here, can Seoul hit 1,000? a

26:02

thousand. Okay, that's a 5X roughly.

26:04

Yeah, that seems about right. Will it

26:06

definitely get there? No idea. Could it

26:08

overshoot that? Yes. Yes. undershoot it? Yes, of

26:11

course. it undershoot it? Yes, which is earlier SUI,

26:13

adoption adoption a lower free float, tend to

26:15

move faster in a bull market and

26:17

the reverse in the bear market. So

26:19

can which is now around $2,

26:21

can that go to 20 bucks,

26:23

10 bucks? Yeah, it's as simple

26:25

as that. And And that's taking into account

26:28

how other tokens have moved in past

26:30

cycles. So really, end of

26:32

this cycle is somewhere late 2025. So

26:35

is why it's called the banana zone,

26:37

because returns go exponential in the

26:39

latter part and all the charts go

26:41

bananas. we're going to get to

26:43

the yellow fruit. I have to check because we're bouncing in

26:45

and out of 70, I don't don't know fruit. call it. know, know.

26:47

we're We can't really call it that. We're

26:49

both summoning it, but we don't know what

26:51

to call it. So the following question

26:53

from that is, what do you believe

26:55

Bitcoin could do in a similar timeframe?

26:57

Well, Well, a number of ways of doing

26:59

Bitcoin. I use the log regression channel. Other

27:01

people hate that and use the log

27:03

channel with the curve, or you can

27:05

just use straightforward technical analysis. Either

27:08

way, it seems the most likely

27:10

range is to 450 with 200-ish being 450

27:12

with 200 -ish being medium. Now had

27:14

different cycles. know, 2013 was a

27:16

blow off, 2017 was a blow off.

27:18

The previous cycle was a truncated

27:21

cycle. We didn't get the blow

27:23

off top. So that's kind of the

27:25

range. The hard thing is we

27:27

don't know. I mean, I

27:29

never forget just because a lot

27:31

of people only understand the last cycle,

27:33

which was a truncated cycle. People People

27:35

don't realize sold my Bitcoin I bought at $200. I

27:38

sold it at $2,000. $2 ,000, I'm

27:40

like, I'm a god. I'm clearly George Soros,

27:42

one of the greatest traders the world has

27:44

ever seen. I sold it because there was

27:46

these forking wars going on in Bitcoin. I'm

27:48

like, I don't understand. Am I going

27:50

to back the right chain? I'm not in

27:53

the space deep enough to know what

27:55

the hell I'm doing. So I sold out

27:57

and the price starting to correct. It corrected then

27:59

rallied. 10X

28:01

the end of the year in months

28:03

and ended up at

28:06

20,000. 20 ,000. And

28:08

people just don't understand that very difficult

28:10

to deal with on a number

28:12

of levels. Because if you ride it

28:15

all the way, it then -shape goes down

28:17

again, the Fuji pattern, or you out too

28:19

early and then it's like 10X

28:21

are left on the table. So it

28:23

is bloody difficult to do. I

28:25

those days very well because family

28:28

started mining Venezuela around in

28:30

2015 and knew about Bitcoin, Nobody knew

28:32

what it was. All of

28:34

a sudden it goes from to 1000, 1000 to

28:36

2000 and ,000 to forkwars, ,000 and then corrects

28:38

fork wars. But then we we moon to 20.

28:40

I remember thinking to myself, because in Venezuela,

28:42

you went from being excited to fearing

28:44

for your own safety. if people thought you had Bitcoin.

28:46

And so it was a really dramatic

28:48

shift. And I think it just shocked

28:50

people into saying, what is this thing?

28:52

It's hard to describe. It saying, was hard

28:54

to believe it was real. It was

28:56

just such a big change. But now

28:58

that we're on the topic, I

29:01

I just guess Bitcoin, I got to check

29:03

the price, but it's seven. trying to decide what

29:05

to call it. So Bitcoin broken out -ish

29:07

of the consolidation pattern. But to call

29:09

it the yellow zone, to give it its

29:11

official name, the one that all of our

29:13

hopes and dreams are in, we kind

29:15

of need more breakouts, like Salana needs

29:17

to be above 185. We

29:19

need to see ETH breaking its

29:21

recent range. We We to see a

29:24

structure of a market that looks like

29:26

alts and the whole market want the

29:28

catapult higher. It's not good enough just

29:30

to have Bitcoin, because it

29:32

could be sailor the market. There's There's

29:34

large player in the market, stuff like

29:36

that. So need to see the whole

29:38

space. And we're not there yet.

29:41

I mean, we got to 73 and

29:43

a bit on Bitcoin, which is

29:45

approaching the all -time high, while Salana hit

29:47

180 something, but didn't break.

29:49

And it's all backed off a bit. And I

29:51

think that makes sense because we're talking here today

29:53

and we're a few days away from the election. And

29:56

I think the market doesn't want to commit

29:58

it figures it out. very similar

30:00

view. I I don't think we're going to

30:02

see anything If anything it be like a very tamed all

30:04

time high into the elections Maybe we get to sell

30:06

the news event and perhaps we rally higher again. We

30:08

don't have long. I mean we've got four days Just

30:11

my conversations with clients and such, I I a

30:13

lot of people have been trying to front

30:15

run or themselves for a potential Trump win. And

30:17

so that of gets the market a little ahead

30:19

of itself, I find. And then even if

30:21

we get the outcome that a lot of

30:23

people are hoping for or positioning themselves for,

30:26

I still think we correct out. that's just

30:28

my very personal view. Yeah. What we often get

30:30

is a week or so of a blast

30:32

off rally. then

30:34

a correction and and then it's clean.

30:36

We've had that before in the past,

30:38

and that was was 2007, 2016,

30:41

I I think. And I'm going to ask

30:43

you about the election because I think it's

30:45

big, but I loved your banana zone fruit thesis

30:47

on Bitcoin and digital assets. For

30:49

those unfamiliar with it, could you just

30:51

briefly describe what you mean? And And I'm

30:53

going to follow on this with a

30:55

question about the everything code, because I

30:57

think they're both related in some ways.

30:59

But wanted to hear your pitch

31:01

on the bananas on thesis those unfamiliar.

31:04

The bananas and is the fact

31:06

that every four years around

31:08

the election year, a bunch

31:10

of things come together that

31:12

tend to ignite asset prices

31:14

and particularly has a huge

31:16

influence on crypto because it's

31:18

the most exponential of all

31:20

assets. And it's driven by

31:22

the election cycle, really what it's driven

31:24

by is the liquidity cycle. It's

31:26

the rolling over of debts and

31:29

having to provide liquidity to do

31:31

it. At At of speaking, the bond

31:33

market's not liking the Fed issue, the treasury new

31:35

bonds and it's freaking out in the

31:37

UK guilds market. It's freaking out a

31:39

bit. because there's not enough liquidity

31:41

there to absorb the bonds. So we

31:43

know we've got $10 trillion of

31:45

this stuff to roll and they're

31:47

going to have to figure out. how

31:50

to inject that liquidity into the system. And

31:53

it generally starts in the last quarter of

31:55

the year and then keeps going. Now,

31:57

also ties in with the fact that

31:59

the back... half of every year, particularly

32:01

in the last quarter, the

32:03

Chinese increased liquidity for their own

32:05

purposes internally. So

32:07

So got that liquidity cycle, which

32:09

is an annual one. There's an

32:11

annual debt cycle within the US, a

32:13

liquidity cycle. There is a four

32:15

-year liquidity cycle. There is an

32:18

election cycle risk-taking, know, like we're saying, people

32:20

don't take risk, wait for the

32:22

outcome, whatever the outcome, take risks. then

32:24

we've got the global debt refi because

32:26

the Europeans, the UK, the Chinese, the

32:29

Japanese, everyone's in the same boat.

32:31

So So it tends to produce charts that

32:33

go bananas. A, it looks like

32:35

a banana, because it just curves up

32:37

like that. And And the markets are

32:39

bananas, like we were talking about.

32:41

You know, 10x the last four

32:44

months of the year in Bitcoin, that's

32:46

bananas. And so that's what

32:48

it is. And people clung on to

32:50

this thing because it's funny, right? Bananas

32:52

are funny. They're slightly phallic as well. We We

32:54

just some NFTs for people, which is,

32:56

unfuck your future with a banana. And

32:58

And hopes and dreams are in it, because

33:01

that's the process of accelerated gains

33:03

that crypto does, which has unfucked so

33:05

many people's future. It's why crypto,

33:07

over time, gets more people from, I

33:09

I haven't got any money, to now can

33:11

buy a house, or now I

33:13

can realize that future vision of myself.

33:16

Because crypto is the largest wealth -generating

33:18

machine the world has ever seen.

33:20

We've got to got 2 trillion, basically means

33:22

$2 trillion into existence far. And

33:24

I think we're on our way to

33:26

$100 trillion in 10 years' time. And this

33:28

cycle will finish at $10 to $15 trillion.

33:30

So a lot of wealth that we're

33:33

generating. Now, unlike other times, this

33:35

is not via intermediaries. This is

33:37

average people. This is retail, front -running,

33:39

everybody else. The first time the pyramid's been

33:41

inverted, so it matters. I think

33:43

that the way you crystallize some of these

33:45

concepts into actionable trades and why is why

33:47

your research and your content resonates

33:49

with so many people. And I went

33:51

to business school. I I of went

33:53

to finance, I've always been obsessed with

33:55

how money works. And it was not

33:57

until Bitcoin later on in life when

33:59

I started. really back the onions on macro. I

34:01

went from a guy that used

34:03

to think bonds were the most boring

34:05

things in the world to actually get

34:07

so hyped up about bonds. To To

34:09

me, it's like I look at

34:11

bonds before I look at equities

34:14

because one drives the other. I

34:16

think most macro investors believe at

34:18

its core that most asset prices

34:20

are driven more so than anything

34:22

else by global liquidity. And I

34:24

think this goes back to your everything I

34:27

don't if they agree that Mauricio I think

34:29

they do. I I think traditional

34:31

macro people don't really understand liquidity. So

34:33

will say rates the driver or

34:35

whatever. But I don't think most

34:37

people fully understand liquidity. And think then

34:40

they certainly don't understand the basement it's

34:42

not part of their economic models.

34:44

I agree with you. And I

34:46

actually saw this play out in

34:48

real life. In Argentina, we've seen inflation

34:50

of 100% with rates at 60. rates at 60.

34:53

I've also said that I've always used Venezuelan

34:55

stock market as the example. It's

34:57

the best performing market in the world

34:59

in Bolivar. When it in dollars it's down 95%. Correct.

35:02

And some people think, oh, Argentinian yield. I'm

35:04

like, you have to net the yield from

35:07

inflation. You guys don't get it. And

35:09

I think those that experienced things you, for example,

35:11

you've lived all over the world. You've

35:13

worked with really global entities. I find

35:15

that the more worldview, people I speak

35:17

with, they understand it. It's the people that

35:19

tend to have been siloed in a

35:22

particular country or haven't had that exposure. a bank

35:24

fell in My grandfather lost asses when the bank bailed

35:26

in. In In Venezuela and Latin you bail in

35:28

the banks. You bail in the depositors.

35:30

You don't bail out the banks. Remember

35:32

the Corralito in. Argentina? El Corralito, Claro. El Corralito

35:35

is exactly that. So that have been

35:37

through this, and I actually think this

35:39

is why crypto more poised to favor people

35:41

that have seen this type of stuff. And

35:43

that's why we run to it before

35:45

we run into anything else. Not only

35:48

we know why or have a reason, but

35:50

we don't really have any options. Venezuela

35:52

by Bitcoin or else. There's no video. There's no Apple.

35:54

So another key thing. Okay, so debasement all

35:57

of that. Great. We've got this asset.

35:59

People, again, don't realize, I I like to

36:01

get everything down to its simple,

36:03

most common understanding, right? Try and get

36:05

out of the mid -curve and get

36:07

either on the left or the right.

36:09

Bitcoin is the only instantly

36:11

tradable asset in the world. And

36:14

because it's on the internet, anybody

36:16

with an internet connection in any

36:18

country in the world can get

36:20

access to it. Sometimes it can

36:22

be more difficult, but generally

36:24

speaking. And because it's fractionalizable, which

36:26

nothing else is. yes, a dollar

36:28

is, but dollars are not

36:30

available to Filipinos and and

36:32

Nigerians. Here you've got a global

36:35

transferable asset recordable on this ledger

36:37

system that is instantaneously transferable and

36:39

anybody can put 10 % of their

36:41

wages in Anybody. And so what

36:43

it means is everybody rises together

36:45

as opposed to, to, well, a bunch

36:48

of rich people, they can buy

36:50

high end real estate and they

36:52

can get into hedge funds and

36:54

they can get into this. They

36:56

get rich and the poor people

36:58

are just wage slaves. But this

37:01

changes that equation. So nothing like a gold

37:03

similar. But if you go to

37:05

a village in India and buy gold,

37:07

you're crossing a bit off a spread that

37:09

can be up to 50%. In Bitcoin,

37:11

it's nothing. Not to mention you

37:13

can do a fraction of the things with gold

37:16

and you can do with Bitcoin. you can do foreign

37:18

settlement, you can buy things abroad. There's so many

37:20

things that you can do with Bitcoin to your

37:22

point that aren't available with gold. And it's funny, a

37:24

a while back, people were complaining that Bitcoin was trading

37:26

the S &P 500. And I would

37:28

go back to them and say, do

37:30

you know that Bitcoin trading the S &P 500

37:32

is an actual gift from the heavens for

37:34

people everywhere in the world that can access

37:36

the S &P 500? And they can't buy

37:38

Tesla and they can't, as you said

37:41

before, they can't buy an an Nvidia. know, if

37:43

you're in Nigeria, you can't access that. You

37:45

know, you might be lucky and live in a

37:47

a country like India that's had a

37:50

secondly bullish stock market, but most people

37:52

don't. And even that's hard to open an

37:54

account in India. It's not for the

37:56

average person. It may be OK for

37:58

the middle classes, but with issues in Venezuela.

38:00

Switching gears for a second, what are

38:02

you paying attention to in this market?

38:04

I'm seeing the signs of a gigantic

38:06

leverage cycle about to happen again. And

38:08

this is going to be around microstrategies,

38:10

I think. And it's not so much their

38:12

leverage, it's about all the people

38:14

doing the arbitrage, going back to our

38:16

long -term capital. So people are doing a

38:18

number of things. They're using the

38:20

ETF, because they can get prime on

38:22

it, and then shorting microstrategy at a simple

38:25

like, this should be a relationship. That's

38:27

not a great strategy, but I can

38:29

understand in long short book, people might want

38:31

that. There's then the convert

38:33

ARB guys who are buying the converts, they

38:35

will be hedging out some of

38:37

the risk, and then they be trading the

38:39

volatility by the premium. So you've

38:41

got implicit leverage that goes

38:43

on. You've got the same players

38:45

doing the ETF versus the

38:47

futures arbitrage to and keep that

38:49

in line. And there's other players,

38:51

more crypto native, who doing either

38:54

the futures or the ETF versus

38:56

the perps arbitrage. But really

38:58

there's one facilitator of all of

39:00

this. So if we go

39:02

back to what happened, it wasn't

39:04

three arrows capital blew up the world.

39:06

It was one vehicle that

39:08

created gigantic leverage. And that was

39:10

the grayscale Bitcoin trust. So was

39:12

it doing? was trading at a a premium.

39:14

So what the hedge funds doing, They were buying spot,

39:17

selling. It's the same

39:19

with microstrategies. And

39:21

so Barry was not doing anything bad.

39:23

Now, Genesis and stuff like that finally got

39:25

caught out. But generally, the grayscale thing

39:27

was not, people used to complain about the

39:29

premium, but he couldn't control that. That was

39:31

driven by market condition. But we are

39:34

seeing the exact same in microstrategies. And

39:36

people are forgetting that that arbitrage

39:38

is what built all of the leverage,

39:40

all of the borrowing, all of

39:42

the funding markets, everything came from one trade. That's

39:44

a fascinating take, and I'm sure people will find

39:46

it. very insightful. Now, the difference

39:48

is we don't know who the big

39:51

borrower is or the lenders are, because

39:53

it seems that this is traditional

39:55

hedge funds that are doing this trade. Yeah.

39:57

This is securities brokerage, right? Like Like

39:59

this... wouldn't be a CFI or a crypto

40:01

issue. This would be a trad -fight

40:03

issue. That's right. This is where you

40:05

could blow up the prime broking desk because has

40:08

a huge hole or whoever it may be, right?

40:10

But those hedge funds who do this,

40:12

A, A, they're much bigger. B,

40:14

they can manage risk better. So

40:16

it's not so bad and it's just

40:18

a credit spasm that goes through the

40:20

markets for a while and then frees up

40:22

once the market clears. But it's early

40:25

days. He's just announced a lot of

40:27

$42 billion of this shit to go. it depends

40:29

how much that all gets reused within

40:31

the system. That's fascinating, Raul. Last question

40:33

before we go into where people can find more

40:35

about you. By the time this episode airs,

40:37

we'll have a new U .S. president. Do

40:39

you anticipate making or having to make

40:41

any changes to your portfolio depending on the

40:43

outcome or are we just going to ride

40:45

the global liquidity wave here? Yeah,

40:47

no, I have no difference.

40:49

Let's say if there was a

40:51

a clear undeniable Trump sweep,

40:53

essentially, then I think there's some

40:55

equities that make a lot of sense.

40:57

Tesla being one because Elon basically in the

40:59

government and the other will be Coinbase they

41:01

had the super and everything else. So our crypto

41:03

side, no, nothing changes. I'm all in anyway. all

41:05

in anyway. I'm 100 % my liquid worth. So

41:08

I can't do anything. And if Harris

41:10

gets in and the market doesn't like

41:12

it, maybe it pukes 15, 20 % and

41:14

then it'll just go back up again.

41:16

So it really makes no difference to

41:18

me on my time horizon. What's

41:20

next for you and Real Vision? Any special events,

41:22

anything you want to let our listeners know

41:24

about? There's a lot going on because we've

41:26

now got this incredible trade ideas on the

41:28

platform. where we've got thousands of members putting

41:30

up their own trade ideas. Some of them

41:32

are in mean coin. Some of them are in

41:34

equity, Some of them other stuff. we've now

41:36

got this kind of community of ideas blowing and there's

41:38

been competitions and the first competition is just closed

41:40

out. I I think the winner did returns in

41:42

two months. returns in two months. It's

41:45

bananas. I mean, some of the returns, I thought

41:47

I did well. I I months. a stock called

41:49

Rocket Labs and it was up 70 % and I

41:51

came like 18. I'm like, wow. So

41:53

there's some very smart people there. We're working

41:55

on a big crypto gathering in Miami in January,

41:57

so we're going to get everybody. together there,

41:59

that'll be a lot of fun. But there's

42:01

always a lot going on at Real Vision, lots

42:03

of fabulous interviews, lots of great research,

42:05

and then a lot of this kind of

42:07

user -generating content of ideas and notes and all of

42:09

that kind of stuff that's ongoing. Well,

42:12

I strongly encourage anyone that hasn't registered,

42:14

go check out Real Vision. www .realvision.com/join,

42:16

it's free. And And just go and

42:18

see the quality of what's there, the

42:20

discourse, because we kind of showed

42:22

everybody how to do the macro thing.

42:24

That's all on Real Vision. What people see on

42:26

my YouTube channel, The Journey Man, is a

42:28

fraction of all of the great

42:30

minds, because I may have an opinion

42:32

and maybe I've been right, but

42:34

I'll also be very wrong. But what

42:36

Real Vision gives you is that ability

42:38

to get broad opinions from a

42:40

whole host of people so you can

42:42

build your own investing framework and

42:44

kind of unfuck your own future. www .realvision.com

42:47

forward slash join, just do yourself a

42:49

favor, do that. Definitely. I've

42:51

done myself a favor and I I say

42:53

to people that even just comparing your Spotify

42:55

podcast versus on -screen Real Vision experience, it's a mile

42:57

of difference. Well, because you got the AI

42:59

summaries, the transcripts, the The charts are what did

43:01

it for me. You able to show the

43:04

charts, that was brilliant. So much of the

43:06

stuff is data, right? And I think it transfers across video

43:08

better. And you guys have all the bells and

43:10

wasn't the quality of the video, everything

43:12

is just top notch. So very much encourage

43:14

people to go check it out. Where can

43:16

our readers find out more about you

43:18

and your work? Is there anywhere else you

43:20

want to point them to? Well, easiest one

43:23

is A, find me on Twitter on X at

43:25

Raul, R -A -O -U -L, G

43:27

-A -M -I. You can find me there. And

43:30

there's a link tree that shows all of various

43:32

things that I do because I run several

43:34

businesses, Global Macro Investor, which

43:36

is my high research, Real

43:39

Vision, also XPam, Exponential Age Management. I

43:41

have a crypto fund of

43:43

hedge funds. So we're one

43:45

of the largest investors in crypto hedge funds. So

43:47

I have that business as well, and then a bunch

43:50

of other things. So I'm a busy person. Go to

43:52

the feed, you can find it there, or you can

43:54

find me on LinkedIn. Everybody go on fuck

43:56

your future. Follow Real Vision. Check out Paul. I look Raul, I look

43:58

forward. doing this again in person hopefully soon now that

44:00

we're both here on island. I want to to thank you i know

44:02

you're a very busy man so thank you for taking

44:04

the time to come on the show and hope we

44:06

can do this again soon all right my friend i

44:08

look forward to it Rao

44:13

has this fascinating way of weaving in

44:15

education with market insights and and humor get

44:17

his point across, and I think that's

44:19

what makes him so relatable. His

44:21

trade insights make sense, and that's because

44:23

he takes the time to explain the

44:26

underlying market dynamics that are driving his

44:28

decisions. I would strongly

44:30

encourage anyone who is curious about

44:32

macroeconomics to invest the time needed

44:34

to really grasp how central banks

44:36

influence economic cycles. It has made

44:38

me a much better investor, and

44:40

there are many great educational resources. out

44:43

there that are also very fun

44:45

like the Latin and the Real community which

44:47

strongly encourage you to check

44:50

out I hope you've enjoyed

44:52

the conversation with Raoul, and be back soon

44:54

with another great guest. If

45:04

you enjoyed this because of Bitcoin episode, I

45:06

would be very grateful for the five seconds it

45:09

would take you to drop us a

45:11

review and give us a rating on your

45:13

favorite podcasting platform. This will really help

45:15

us reach even more listeners. And And if

45:17

you'd like to learn more about Bitcoin, be

45:19

sure to check out our newsletter by

45:21

subscribing at ledn .io. That's leden.io. Again, this

45:23

was Mauricio Diharto Lomeo. Stay tuned for

45:25

our next episode. and then, muchas gracias y

45:28

los quiero mucho. Ciao, y ciao.