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2:01

get your podcasts. Hey everybody Robert Evans here and I wanted

2:03

to let you know this is a

2:05

compilation episode so every episode of the

2:08

week that just happened is here in

2:10

one convenient and with somewhat less ads

2:12

package for you to listen to in

2:14

a long stretch if you want. If

2:17

you've been listening to the episodes every

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day this week there's going to be

2:21

nothing new here for you but you

2:24

can make your own decisions. Hello

2:27

and welcome to It Could Happen

2:29

here, a podcast better world falling

2:31

apart and I'm mostly just about

2:34

that at the minute, but we

2:36

do sometimes talk about how to

2:38

put it back together as well.

2:40

Joining me today is Garrison Davis.

2:42

Hi Garrison. Hello. Hi. And we're

2:44

on the falling apart theme since

2:46

we've been on that one quite

2:48

a lot the last few weeks,

2:51

but today we are specifically talking

2:53

about the what I'm going to

2:55

call the rendition of... non-U.S. nationals

2:57

by the Trump administration over the

2:59

last week. The reason I'm calling

3:01

it, I guess, rendition and no

3:03

deportation is because these people aren't

3:05

being sent back to the countries

3:08

they're from. They're being sent to

3:10

El Salvador. Specifically, they're being sent

3:12

to a place called Secote. So

3:14

the Trump administration has attempted to

3:16

send 300 people who it accuses

3:18

of being members of a foreign

3:20

terrorist organization, we're going to get

3:22

to how they get there, under

3:25

the Alien Enemies Act, to a

3:27

prison in El Salvador where they

3:29

will be detained for a year

3:31

at the expense of the United

3:33

States. We're going to break down

3:35

exactly how we got there over

3:37

the course of this episode. So

3:39

the Trump administration has accused these

3:42

people of being members of... two

3:44

different gangs. The majority of them,

3:46

there's 238 people, are accused of

3:48

being members of Trinidad. Trinidad is

3:50

a Venezuelan gang that the Trump

3:52

administration recently declared a foreign terrorist

3:54

organization. Another 23, it's accusing of

3:56

being members of MS-13, which is

3:58

a Salvadorian gang. The Trump administration

4:01

used something called the Alien enemies

4:03

Act to remove these people. The

4:05

Alien enemies Act, we actually spoke

4:07

about it in November of last

4:09

year when we were looking at

4:11

provisions of US law that the

4:13

Trump administration could use for its

4:15

mass deportation agenda. This is one

4:18

we spoke about. The Trump administration

4:20

in the past has been quite

4:22

good at finding obscure provisions of

4:24

the United States law to exclude

4:26

migrants. You can hear my whole

4:28

series about Title 42 on that.

4:30

That's kind of the paramount example,

4:32

right? The Alien Enemies Act is

4:35

a 226-year-old piece of legislation. The

4:37

last time it was used was

4:39

to inter Japanese people during the

4:41

Second World War, right? So that's

4:43

a pretty shameful part of United

4:45

States history, and it's great that

4:47

we're going back there. So who

4:49

are the enemies in this case,

4:52

right? It's generally, like I should

4:54

probably point out the Alien Enemies

4:56

Act is intended for like the

4:58

people you are at war with,

5:00

right? So if the United States

5:02

is at war with, let's say,

5:04

Canada, and there are Canadian citizens

5:06

in the United States, or people

5:09

who have dual citizenship with Canada,

5:11

and those people that are individuals

5:13

within that group are suspected to

5:15

be spies or suspected to be

5:17

like serving the interests of Canada,

5:19

not the United States. that they

5:21

could be excluded or detained under

5:23

the alien enemies act or sent

5:26

out of the country, as is

5:28

the case here. And as we

5:30

saw in this instance, there is

5:32

very little recourse to appeal, right?

5:34

This isn't like a deportation hearing

5:36

or an asylum hearing, where you

5:38

have a lawyer representing you, where

5:40

you have even a hearing, right?

5:43

These people were rounded up and

5:45

booted out the country in very

5:47

short order. Yeah, and like with

5:49

or without due process, like we

5:51

should not be. Blackbaking people and

5:53

sending them to the like Al

5:55

Salvador labor prison, right? Like this

5:57

is like just doing this at

6:00

all, even with due process, would

6:02

already be horrifying. The fact that

6:04

they're just doing it like without

6:06

even any like court process entirely

6:08

and like trying to like bypass

6:10

that just adds like another level

6:12

to an already like horrifying and

6:14

you know, evil and shameful action.

6:17

Yeah, it's terrible. I want to

6:19

define some of the categories here.

6:21

I want to start with genderedagua.

6:23

Spanish understanders will notice the word

6:25

tren meaning train. That's because they

6:27

came out of construction unions who

6:29

are building trains as part of

6:31

a Venezuelan infrastructure project in Arago

6:34

which is part of Venezuela. There

6:36

are other Venezuelan gangs. Tren deliano

6:38

is the other one that springs

6:40

to mind which also come from

6:42

the same place and thus have

6:44

similar names but just people should

6:46

understand that they're different organizations. They

6:48

also have a strong presence of

6:51

Venezuelan prisons. They have in the

6:53

past been accused of doing violence

6:55

on behalf of the Venezuelan state,

6:57

but in 2024, my daughter blamed

6:59

them for the protests after his

7:01

election. People remember that that election

7:03

was widely seen as fraudulent, and

7:05

I covered that in my series

7:08

on the variant gap. People want

7:10

to learn more about Venezuelan politics

7:12

and migration to the United States.

7:14

In 2024, Biden named Trinidadwa a

7:16

transnational criminal organization and then... Trump

7:18

named them a foreign terrorist organization.

7:20

He labeled several cartels as FTOs

7:22

as well. At the time, there's

7:25

a lot of speculation about why

7:27

was it to allow for like

7:29

drone strikes or covert operations. I

7:31

think we're now seeing that this

7:33

was part of this larger ploy

7:35

of deportation. Yeah, because like quote

7:37

unquote terrorists have even less quote

7:39

unquote rights than quote unquote criminals.

7:42

Right. Like it's like it's like

7:44

the triangle of like which. which

7:46

deplorable class has the least amount

7:48

of rights terrorists are always like

7:50

the ones with the least. Yeah,

7:52

and we've been doing that for

7:54

20 odd years now with Guantanamo

7:56

Bay and renditions to Egypt and

7:58

Syria and other places. In this

8:01

case, people are being sent to

8:03

Secote, which is this prison in

8:05

El Salvador. Can you spell that?

8:07

Yeah, C-E-C-O-T. C-T. C-T. C-Cote. C-Cote.

8:09

It stands for Terrorism Confignment, Terrorism

8:11

Detention Center. It is largely referred

8:13

to as a super-prison, right? It

8:15

was built in El Salvador by

8:18

Buchales, part of his iron fist

8:20

would be the way you translate

8:22

it. It's iron fist policy against

8:24

gangs and against crime. And it

8:26

has been widely condemned for human

8:28

rights abuses. People are crammed into

8:30

cells with more than 100 people,

8:32

but there are fewer bunks than

8:35

there are prisoners, right? So they

8:37

can't even all lie down at

8:39

the same time. The bunks don't

8:41

have bedding, they're just flat. like

8:43

metal sheets. They're four high, so

8:45

you have to climb over other

8:47

people to sleep. For more than

8:49

100 prisoners, there are two open

8:52

toilets. That's the only access to

8:54

a bathroom that you have. They

8:56

might be allowed out for half

8:58

an hour each day. They're not

9:00

allowed to communicate with their families

9:02

or the outside world. They're forced

9:04

to shave their heads, and they

9:06

all wear white. The lights are

9:09

left on all day. As I

9:11

said, they're provided with no bedding.

9:13

No contact with the outside world.

9:15

Very little access to anything other

9:17

than standing in that cell. There's

9:19

two Bibles in each cell. It's

9:21

the only sort of entertainment they're

9:23

allowed. It just sounds like a

9:26

torture camp. Like, yeah, this is

9:28

completely inhumane, right? It's horrific. And

9:30

for a couple of years now,

9:32

Bukhale has been doing like these

9:34

media tours of Sekot, like using

9:36

it to generate content. It's very

9:38

much. designed to generate this image

9:40

of like this is what will

9:43

happen to quote unquote what will

9:45

happen to you if you're a

9:47

quote unquote in a gang. It's

9:49

sort of been used to promote

9:51

his image of someone who's taking

9:53

an iron fist to gangs and

9:55

as we saw when these people

9:57

were sent to El Salvador this

10:00

tendency to use, I don't know

10:02

what you would call it, incarceration.

10:04

a way of making content was

10:06

very much the case here, right?

10:08

Yeah. We're going to break for

10:10

ads when we come back. We

10:12

will be consuming content, that is

10:14

people being stripped of their human

10:17

rights. And we are back. Garrison,

10:19

do you want to go ahead

10:21

and play this? So the... The

10:23

tweet in question, the zit in

10:25

question, it's by Naib Bukhale, the

10:27

president of El Salvador, right? Should

10:29

I read it out? Yeah, I

10:31

think you should. I think it's

10:33

worth noting that like this style

10:36

of propaganda closely mirrors a lot

10:38

of what like a DHS and

10:40

the Trump administration is doing on

10:42

their official accounts, a lot of,

10:44

a lot of the like a

10:46

memeified content creation format, like aestheticsetics

10:48

being used to just display. like

10:50

torture and deportations and human rights

10:52

abuses is very common among government

10:54

accounts in the states right now.

10:57

It's pretty pretty horrifying to look

10:59

at and this this kind of

11:01

follows suit and is possibly even

11:03

more bleak. Yeah. But yeah, we

11:05

should read read this whole this

11:07

whole message and then and then

11:09

we'll probably skip around on the

11:11

video and and talk about what

11:13

we're seeing. Yeah. So I'll just

11:16

read it. Obviously you don't understand.

11:18

I'm quoting it. Today, the first

11:20

238 members of the Venezuelan criminal

11:22

organisation Trenderagua arrived in our country.

11:24

They were immediately transferred to Secote,

11:26

the Terrorism Confignment Centre, for a

11:28

period of one year, parentheses renewable.

11:30

The United States will pay a

11:32

very low fee for them, but

11:35

a high one for us. Over

11:37

time, these actions, combined with the

11:39

production already being generated by more

11:41

than 40,000 inmates engaged in various

11:43

workshops and labour, under the zero

11:45

idleness program, will help make our

11:47

prison system self-sustainable. As of today,

11:49

it costs $200 billion per year.

11:51

On this occasion, the US has

11:54

sent us 23 MS-13 members wanted

11:56

by Salvatore and Justice, including ringleaders.

11:58

One of them is a member

12:00

of the criminal organisation's highest structure.

12:02

This will help us finalise intelligence

12:04

gathering and go off to the

12:06

last remnants of MS-13, including its

12:08

former and new members, money, weapons,

12:10

drugs, hideouts, collaborators and sponsors. As

12:12

always, we continue advancing in a

12:15

fight against organised crime. But this

12:17

time, we are also helping our

12:19

allies, making our prison system self-sustainable

12:21

and obtaining vital intelligence to make

12:23

our country an even safer place,

12:25

all in a single action. May

12:27

God bless El Salvador and may

12:29

God bless the United States. I

12:31

should probably just add that the

12:34

U.S. sent three million dollars to

12:36

pay for the three hundred prisoners

12:38

that intended to send. The zero

12:40

idleness program is like one of

12:42

the most sinister things I've like

12:44

read recently. Yeah, I mean you

12:46

could pull out of a George

12:48

Orwell or like a old suxley

12:50

or something, right? And it wouldn't

12:53

sound out of place. Even like,

12:55

you know, it's almost cliche now

12:57

to point to like German work

12:59

camps, but like, come on. Yeah,

13:01

I mean, come on. Yeah, yeah,

13:03

we're doing it again. So yeah,

13:05

we'll probably play a clip of

13:07

the music and then I'm gonna

13:09

skip around on the video. We

13:12

can just talk about what we're

13:14

seeing here. It's first we have

13:16

a shot of an airport with

13:18

three different planes. and people getting

13:20

rounded up and pushed on in

13:22

single file. It has like this

13:24

like action movie type music, lines

13:26

of soldiers. So as the people

13:28

getting loaded on the plane, they're

13:31

getting like forced down. There's like

13:33

people with like guns, police, military,

13:35

like man handling people, pushing their

13:37

heads down, physically removing clothing. You

13:39

know, they're showing their tattoos there,

13:41

right? That's when they're pulling up

13:43

his shirt. Yeah. Yeah. But like,

13:45

even the way that they just

13:47

like walk around with these people,

13:49

like like, like forcing their heads

13:52

almost like their concrete as they

13:54

make them shot. along the ground

13:56

just like basic dehumanization yeah shows

13:58

them getting transported onto buses so

14:00

this said they're arriving at second

14:02

now sort of bright white very

14:04

sterile facility now they're being forced

14:06

onto their knees and shaved getting

14:08

their beard shaved shaved all while

14:11

being forced onto their knees on

14:13

the ground. Then the cops doing

14:15

this are all wearing, I guess,

14:17

bala clavas. I would describe them

14:19

as face masks and hats. Yeah,

14:21

all of the military and police

14:23

officials are trying to hide their

14:25

identity as they, you know, publicly

14:27

display the actions that they're doing

14:30

when they're, you know, shaving and

14:32

holding people's heads up for the

14:34

camera. Yeah. It's a lot of

14:36

that kind of stuff you see

14:38

you see them like pushing like

14:40

pushing people all in matching white

14:42

clothes Yeah, in single file into

14:44

cells. Yeah, this is the cell

14:46

so we spoke about before we'll

14:49

include this link in the in

14:51

the sources It's basically just three

14:53

minutes of torture porn like that's

14:55

like that's what that's what they're

14:57

doing. Yeah, it's it's pretty bleak

14:59

honestly. Like I don't know what

15:01

else to say about it besides

15:03

like it's just it's just like

15:05

channeling pure evil like I There's

15:07

nothing else to say. Yeah, there's,

15:10

I mean, there's, I don't know

15:12

how anyone could watch that and

15:14

think good. So we should talk

15:16

about how they're identifying these people,

15:18

and we should talk about the

15:20

process by which they were sent

15:22

there. Ice policy says a person

15:24

can be deemed a gang member

15:26

if they officer notes to, quote,

15:29

gang membership. identification criteria. One of

15:31

the criteria that they seem to

15:33

be using in this instance is

15:35

their tattoos. So there are some

15:37

gangs that have a process of

15:39

tattooing to enter the gang, right?

15:41

MS-13, Maraselva-structure. It's what the MS

15:43

stands for being one of them.

15:45

These like Mara Central American gangs

15:48

have tended to use that in

15:50

the past. This isn't really something

15:52

that happens with trenderagua as far

15:54

as I'm aware of. Some people

15:56

they've pointed to tattoos off trains

15:58

in a document they're gay found

16:00

from the Texas Department of Public

16:02

Safety. They're pointing to stars. as

16:04

evidence that people were part of

16:07

Trenderagua. So I remember where Trenderagua

16:09

does not have a policy of

16:11

tattooing people specifically because this is

16:13

a thing that has been used

16:15

by law enforcement to identify members,

16:17

right? Like it would be silly

16:19

to keep doing that once it's

16:21

become so... clear that the state

16:23

uses that. So the one sort

16:25

of case that I've seen legal

16:28

documents on of these people, the

16:30

one name we have, one of

16:32

these people who's been sent, is

16:34

a man named Hercira as Barrios.

16:36

He was a footballer, professional football

16:38

in Venezuela, who protested against a

16:40

Maduro regime, was tortured and detained

16:42

as a result. I've spoken to

16:44

probably, I would imagine, I would

16:47

imagine thousands of Venezuelan migrants, right?

16:49

Again, I would like you to

16:51

listen to my series on a

16:53

Italian gap if you haven't. I

16:55

put a lot into it. All

16:57

of these people have stories of

16:59

watching people be shot, the brutal

17:01

repression of protest, state violence, economic

17:03

collapse, persecution for supporting the opposition

17:06

in the country, right? And this

17:08

is one of those stories. The

17:10

criteria that they used to identify

17:12

him were a tattoo which had

17:14

a football with a crown over

17:16

the top and then the word

17:18

Dios, God in English, underneath. Résbarios,

17:20

his lawyer, says that this is

17:22

an homage to the logo of

17:25

Rayal Madrid, his favorite football club.

17:27

They have claimed that it's evidence

17:29

of gang membership. That's what the

17:31

government is claiming here. The other

17:33

criteria that they used is a

17:35

picture of him like throwing up

17:37

the horns, I guess, which... I

17:39

believe it means I love you

17:41

in sign language. I'm not sure

17:43

if I get urban legend or

17:46

if that's the case in there.

17:48

and obviously different sign languages, but

17:50

this is a hand gesture that's

17:52

especially common in the Spanish-speaking world.

17:54

If you're not familiar, I have

17:56

my little finger and my index

17:58

finger extended and my two other

18:00

fingers curled up as if I

18:02

was making it first. Almost like

18:05

a spider man hand symbol, I

18:07

guess. Sure, I'm not familiar, but

18:09

if you say so. To visually

18:11

referenced for people. If you were

18:13

making a little cow, like a

18:15

bulk with your hands, sure you

18:17

would be doing a bit shadow

18:19

puppeting. It's very common, like, uh...

18:21

Yes, it's a very typical handsable.

18:24

It's a thing that people do

18:26

when they, when they're taking photos.

18:28

Like, I've even seen it, like,

18:30

when, you know, if there's, if

18:32

I'm working with a photographer and

18:34

they're snapping photos of large groups

18:36

of people, people just do it.

18:38

Like, just like people did a

18:40

peace sign, you know, it's a

18:43

thing to do with your hands.

18:45

Those are two criteria they're, right,

18:47

even if they... had been accused

18:49

of a crime, even convicted of

18:51

a crime in the United States,

18:53

it's very unclear what legal basis

18:55

there would be to then detain

18:57

them in El Salvador, right? Like

18:59

the United States doesn't have a

19:01

system whereby we can send people

19:04

to penal colonies. At the time

19:06

of writing, this has of course

19:08

been challenged in court, right? A

19:10

district court judge did block these

19:12

removals. Now, he actually blocked them

19:14

before the people had arrived in

19:16

El Salvador. However, Despite this, the

19:18

planes didn't turn around. And I'm

19:20

just going to quote directly from

19:23

what the judge said here. Quote,

19:25

any plane containing these folks and

19:27

it's going to take off or

19:29

it's in the air need to

19:31

be returned to the United States.

19:33

Then another quote later, this is

19:35

something you need to make sure

19:37

is complied with immediately. This didn't

19:39

happen, right? The planes went from

19:42

the US to Honduras, Honduras to

19:44

El Salvador. They didn't stop even

19:46

when the judge had given this

19:48

order for them to stop to

19:50

stop. To stop. Normally in legal

19:52

proceedings such as this, the government

19:54

or one of the parties... not

19:56

agree with the findings of the

19:58

judge and they may choose to

20:01

appeal it, right? That's very normal.

20:03

You still comply with the order,

20:05

then appeal it, right? You don't

20:07

just keep doing whatever you feel

20:09

like doing because you don't think

20:11

the judge was right. Like that's

20:13

in theory not how this works.

20:15

Now in practice, what means does

20:17

the judge have to force the

20:20

executive to listen to him? I

20:22

don't know. We're not seeing any

20:24

of them on display at the

20:26

minute. The government has cited various

20:28

reasons for ignoring the ruling. One

20:30

of them, press secretary Caroline Leavitt,

20:32

claimed that there was, quote, no

20:34

lawful basis for the ruling. Go

20:36

back to my previous statement about

20:38

how you're supposed to appeal things.

20:41

They also claimed in court that

20:43

a verbal order is not the

20:45

same as a written one. That's

20:47

not something that's generally understood to

20:49

be the case. And that because

20:51

the flights were over international water,

20:53

the order did not apply. This

20:55

was then part of the foreign

20:57

policy powers reserved to the president.

21:00

That last one is particularly worrying.

21:02

You effectively don't have your rights

21:04

in international waters, or like humans

21:06

don't have rights in international waters.

21:08

Yeah, it's just allowing the US

21:10

government, or the US government trying

21:12

to say that it's allowed to

21:14

do whatever it wants, if the

21:16

action is being taken or not,

21:19

like immediately on US soil or

21:21

other foreign soil. Yeah. So we're

21:23

going to take another break and

21:25

when we come back we will

21:27

talk about their response to this

21:29

judge's ruling. quote, this radical left

21:31

nudity of a judge, a troublemaker

21:33

and agitator who was Sadly appointed

21:35

by Barak, Hussein Obama, was not

21:38

elected president, MDash. I'm not going

21:40

to say when it's capitalised, just

21:42

understand that it's sporadically capitalised in

21:44

the fashion that Trump likes to

21:46

do. He didn't win the popular

21:48

vote parentheses by a lot, exclamation

21:50

mark, comma. He didn't win all

21:52

seven swing states. He didn't win

21:54

two thousand, seven hundred and fifty

21:56

to five and twenty five counties.

21:59

He didn't win anything. I won

22:01

for many reasons in an overwhelming

22:03

mandate, but fighting illegal immigration may

22:05

have been the number one reason

22:07

for this historic victory. I'm just

22:09

doing what the voters wanted me

22:11

to do. This judge, like many

22:13

of the crooked judges, I'm forced

22:15

to appear before, should be impeached.

22:18

We don't want vicious violent and

22:20

demented criminals. Many of them deranged

22:22

murderers in our country. Make America

22:24

great again. Tom Homan, the borders

22:26

are also told Fox News. I

22:28

don't care what the judges think.

22:30

We made a promise to the

22:32

American people. The president of Trump

22:34

has made a promise to the

22:37

American people. We're going to make

22:39

this country safe again. I wake

22:41

up every morning loving my job

22:43

because I work for the greatest

22:45

president in the history of my

22:47

life and we're going to make

22:49

this country safe again. I'm proud

22:51

to be a part of this

22:53

administration. We're not stopping. I don't

22:56

care what the judges think. I

22:58

don't care the left things. We're

23:00

coming. Just flew out the hallway.

23:02

Tom Holman, thanks so much for

23:04

joining the program. This is open

23:06

defiance of the courts, right? Like,

23:08

I don't really know. It's what

23:10

we've been talking about the past

23:12

month on executive disorder, how we

23:14

are just continually ramping up this

23:17

clash between the executive branch and

23:19

the judicial branch. The congressional branch

23:21

has already basically given up all

23:23

of their power. And yeah, this

23:25

is like an actual constitutional crisis.

23:27

Very few people are taking this

23:29

as seriously as what it should

23:31

be and even the courts seem

23:33

a little bit tepid to like

23:36

actually enforce their own power or

23:38

like try to. I mean, Bozberg

23:40

mentioned contempt once from what I

23:42

can find on PACER, but like,

23:44

obviously these judges, I think, are

23:46

somewhat concerned that if they, you

23:48

know, they find the government in

23:50

contempt for court, then what happens?

23:52

Because if you like, if you

23:55

play your Trump card and no

23:57

one cares, then you have no

23:59

cards left to play. It's kind

24:01

of odd how the judges themselves

24:03

are seemingly afraid of like pushing

24:05

this constitutional crisis into like explicit

24:07

territory, right to be like, what

24:09

if we Do the thing that

24:11

then declared everyone else like what's

24:14

happening? We have no power like

24:16

like we actually have like like

24:18

it is just authoritarianism be via

24:20

the executive branch Yeah, it's almost

24:22

like they're trying to like backpedal

24:24

from this like very obvious accelerationist

24:26

push of like no, we need

24:28

to actually test test this out

24:30

Yeah, because we need to know

24:32

where we're at like and they're

24:35

scared to because they're scared What

24:37

if what if that testing causes

24:39

like the Trump side to win?

24:41

Yeah But they were already winning

24:43

in the absence of the testing.

24:45

Yes, exactly. And the problem is

24:47

that in absence of that, you

24:49

were just giving up and letting

24:51

Trump win. Like after Trump called

24:54

to impeach the quote-unquote radical leftist

24:56

lunatic of a judge who tried

24:58

to temporarily halt the deportation of

25:00

these 300 Venezuelan immigrants, Chief Justice

25:02

John Roberts made a rare public

25:04

statement. rebuking calls to impeach judges

25:06

for rulings that don't align with

25:08

political agendas. And that's as far

25:10

as they're going right now. They're

25:13

making rare public statements saying you

25:15

probably shouldn't call to impeach a

25:17

judge. Meanwhile, Musk complains on twitter.com

25:19

about a quote unquote judicial coup

25:21

and mistakenly calls for 60 senators

25:23

to impeach leftist judges. Now, of

25:25

course, the Senate does not do

25:27

impeachments. The House does, and the

25:29

Senate requires... 67 votes to convict

25:32

it and remove someone from office

25:34

once impeached so ha ha we

25:36

got you we got you Elon

25:38

you made a mistake we win

25:40

notes Yeah, it's where we're at

25:42

right now with this case, we're

25:44

recording this on Thursday, Bozberg gave

25:46

him a 24-hour extension to provide

25:48

details about the flights, the government

25:51

has suggested that it might claim

25:53

that these are state secrets, despite

25:55

the fact that it has widely

25:57

publicized his flights, including in the

25:59

video that we discussed. Yeah, they're

26:01

turning these into fucking, like, like,

26:03

tick-talk, Instagram, real, hype videos. They're

26:05

not state secrets. You're publicly displaying

26:07

these to show that these people

26:09

are not human. Yeah. Like you're

26:12

trying to scare everyone into saying,

26:14

we decide if you are a

26:16

person or not. And if you're

26:18

not a person, this is what

26:20

we can do. We can do

26:22

whatever we want to. Yeah. It

26:24

should be noted as well. There

26:26

was actually a process in US

26:28

law through the alien terrorist removal

26:31

court. for the expedited removal of

26:33

terrorist suspects without revealing classified information

26:35

publicly. In fact, Bozburg was chief

26:37

judge on that court for five

26:39

years. Jesus Christ. But we are

26:41

not using that process for using

26:43

the alien enemies act instead. So

26:45

yeah, this is his new exciting

26:47

territory. In on Monday, so that's

26:50

the day that you're hearing this.

26:52

a panel of judges from the

26:54

district court in DC will hear

26:56

an appeal by the United States

26:58

government against Bozberg's attentive restraining order,

27:00

the one that it didn't obey

27:02

anyway. So we will have more

27:04

on this and we'll keep updating

27:06

you on this and suffice it

27:09

to say that I guess again

27:11

this is... a constitutional crisis, like

27:13

this is what it looks like.

27:15

I don't know if people expect

27:17

like fireworks to go off or

27:19

like some confetti to drop and

27:21

it to be like separation of

27:23

powers is gone. But if the

27:25

government can ignore the courts and

27:27

that is what is happening. So

27:30

I guess we will see in

27:32

the meantime these people, many of

27:34

whom one of them was a

27:36

musician, one of them was a

27:38

football player, right? Like I've interviewed

27:40

hundreds. not thousands of Venezuelan migrants.

27:42

And most of them, it will

27:44

shock you to hear, are just

27:46

people who don't want to live

27:49

with the state on their neck,

27:51

people who want to make a

27:53

decent living for their families. For

27:55

what it's worth, none of the

27:57

Venezuelan migrants I met in the

27:59

daddy and gap are in the

28:01

United States or have come to

28:03

the United States from my knowledge

28:05

just for people who are like

28:08

wondering how those stories kind of

28:10

resolve. they resolve with people currently

28:12

stuck in Mexico in pretty terrible

28:14

conditions, either working for very little

28:16

or unable to work at all

28:18

and trying to work out what

28:20

to do. It's pretty bleak for

28:22

them. It's pretty bleak for us

28:24

to, if this is the direction

28:27

that things are going. I don't

28:29

have much more to say, like...

28:31

No, I don't know what else

28:33

there is to say about... them

28:35

just bypassing the courts to do

28:37

a complete authoritarian over grabs so

28:39

that they can send hundreds of

28:41

people to essentially a like a

28:43

labor camp black site in a

28:45

different country for an unknown period

28:48

of time without any legal process.

28:50

Like it's... And to be clear,

28:52

not all of these people even

28:54

entered the United States between ports

28:56

of entry, which has been charged

28:58

as a misdemeanor, but generally isn't

29:00

charged. Some of them came with

29:02

three CBP-1. The fucking app, the

29:04

thing you're supposed to do. these

29:07

are not proven criminals like these

29:09

these these these are just people

29:11

some of whom who emigrated legally

29:13

and have been detained by ice

29:15

I don't know shipped off to

29:17

a like torture labor prison in

29:19

a different country where they're gonna

29:21

stay for at least a year

29:23

in parentheses renewable so like indefinitely

29:26

like it's like they can be

29:28

forced to labor for the rest

29:30

of their lives a thing that

29:32

has happened before in human history.

29:34

No, like if you're, like history

29:36

understanders should look at what's happening,

29:38

be like, oh we're doing that

29:40

again, huh? And the only way

29:42

that this ends is with people

29:45

getting angry enough to start doing

29:47

something about it. And I feel

29:49

like we are, we're so, like

29:51

everyone's become so complacent. that it's

29:53

even hard to get people to

29:55

like care or like hear about

29:57

this sort of thing from happening.

29:59

Yeah, and you don't have to

30:01

be like, I want to phrase

30:03

this in radical terms, that you

30:06

don't have to be like anywhere

30:08

on the left to understand that

30:10

like this is an assault on

30:12

basic human rights. It's assault on

30:14

the foundational principles of the United

30:16

States government and everyone should be

30:18

concerned about this. You shouldn't be

30:20

a left right issue. This should

30:22

be like a right wrong issue.

30:25

And so hopefully. You can all

30:27

have some talks with your family

30:29

this week. I don't know. I

30:31

think it's really important to push

30:33

back on the idea that these

30:35

people have done any crimes because

30:37

they have not, that they have

30:39

been convicted or found using any

30:41

reasonable degree of evidence to be

30:44

members of gangs like Trinidad Agua.

30:46

And even if they have been

30:48

convicted, they should not be sent

30:50

to the Al Salvador torture labor

30:52

camp. But the fact that they're

30:54

not even convicted, these are just

30:56

random. Venezuelan men who have been

30:58

rounded up for the crime of

31:00

having tattoos for the most part.

31:03

It's fucking horrifying. It is petrifying.

31:05

Yeah, it's happening. It is happening

31:07

here. Every day we're getting closer

31:09

to the cool zone as more

31:11

and more people start taking this

31:13

situation seriously. Yeah. So you get

31:15

to get seriously advocate for these

31:17

people. Best of luck. And if

31:19

you want to email us, you

31:22

can do it. Cool zone tips

31:24

at proton. Me. That's an encrypted

31:26

email address, but it's only encrypted

31:28

end-to-end. If you also send from

31:30

encrypted email address, do your due

31:32

diligence. And yeah, send us tips

31:34

if you have tips, ideas if

31:36

you have ideas. And we will

31:38

be back tomorrow with more things

31:40

that are happening here. Is

32:01

this a good time? It's me, Dilla

32:03

Mulvaney, and my dear friend Joe Locke

32:05

from Heartstopper in Agatha all along is

32:07

my very first guest on my brand

32:10

new podcast, The Dylan Hour. It's musical,

32:12

mayhem, and it is going to be

32:14

so much fun. I like a man.

32:16

You like a man. What do I

32:19

like, Joe? You like a man, too?

32:21

We often... There's some cross-pollination happening in

32:23

here. Not like... No. Have we... No?

32:25

Have we... No? No. No. No. No.

32:28

I cannot wait for all you girls'

32:30

gaze and days to join me on

32:32

this extremely special pink confection of a

32:34

podcast. There is so much darkness in

32:37

this world, and what I think we

32:39

could all use more of is a

32:41

little joy. Listen to the Dylan Hour

32:43

on the I-Hart radio app, Apple podcasts,

32:46

or wherever you listen to your podcasts.

32:48

Love ya! Hey, you're listening to On

32:50

purpose with Jay Shete, and today, my

32:52

guest. are none other than Selina Gomez

32:55

and Benny Blanco. I can't wait for

32:57

you to hear this episode about their

32:59

love story, about their relationship, like you've

33:01

never heard it before. I want to

33:04

go back to the first time you

33:06

ever met. Well, Selina, thank you so

33:08

much for this. One of the greatest

33:11

things. Thank you. I'm Selina, but we're

33:13

watching, didn't you? When you're a pop

33:15

star like she is, and you're a

33:17

huge entity and people... set up all

33:20

these walls before and then the first

33:22

second you like disarmed everybody. By the

33:24

way congratulations on your engagement. What I

33:26

felt for Benny it was everything about

33:29

him was honest. He'll tell me anything

33:31

that he's feeling and it made me

33:33

feel like I could do the same.

33:35

If we would have met each other

33:38

when we were younger it would have

33:40

never worked. Listen to On Purpose with

33:42

Jay Shetty on the iHeart Radio app,

33:44

Apple podcast or wherever you get your

33:47

podcast. Imagine you're scrolling through TikTok, you

33:49

come across a video of a teenage

33:51

girl, and then a photo of the

33:53

person suspected of killing her. And I

33:56

was like, what? Like, it was him?

33:58

I was like, oh my God. It

34:00

was shocking. It was very shocking. I'm

34:02

Jen Swan. I'm a journalist in Los

34:05

Angeles and I've spent the past few

34:07

years investigating the story behind the viral

34:09

posts and the extraordinary events that followed.

34:12

I started investing my time to get

34:14

her justice. They put out something on

34:16

social media so I get calls in

34:18

the middle of the night all the

34:21

time. It's like how do you think

34:23

you're going to get away with something

34:25

like this? Like you kill somebody. It's

34:27

the story of how and why a

34:30

group of teenagers turned to social media

34:32

to help track down their friend's killer.

34:34

This is their story. This is My

34:36

Front Daisy. Listen to My Friend Daisy

34:39

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

34:41

podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

34:45

My husband cheated on me with two

34:47

women! He wants to stay together because

34:49

he has cancer. Should I stay? Hey

34:51

Sam, that has to be the craziest

34:53

story in okay story time podcast history.

34:55

Well John, that's because it's dump of

34:57

week and this user writes, my partner

34:59

told me when we first got together

35:01

that he has cancer, told me when

35:03

we first got together that he has

35:05

cancer. He's currently, he's currently when we

35:07

first got together that he has cancer,

35:09

he's currently when we first got together,

35:11

that he has to move, He wasn't

35:13

with her. I went to Facebook and

35:15

it took me less than an... hour

35:17

to find the first two women he

35:19

was cheating on me. Oh, what else

35:21

is he lying about? Well, one thing

35:23

my paranoia just wouldn't let up was

35:25

about the cancer in his treatments. I

35:27

asked his mom about it who told

35:29

me he doesn't have cancer. She also

35:31

informed me he was in rehab, not

35:33

the hospital. He suffered from addiction and

35:35

was trying to recover for me and

35:37

our babies. Did she leave him? Well,

35:39

to find out how the story ends.

35:41

Listen and fall, the OK story time,

35:43

the OK story time, the OK story

35:45

time. Welcome

35:49

to Could Happen here a podcast

35:51

about bad things. Usually, I don't

35:53

know, this is mostly a bad

35:55

things episode. I am the host,

35:57

Mia Wong, and... One of the

35:59

kind of things we've emphasized in

36:01

the show a lot is that

36:03

a lot of the structure of

36:05

the kind of open fascism that

36:08

we're seeing now is stuff that

36:10

was put in place under liberal

36:12

administrations and its practices that have

36:14

carried out by Democrats. And one

36:16

of the biggest ones of those,

36:18

and this is something that I

36:20

think you can trace to violence

36:22

here and you can trace to

36:24

politics that it inspired directly to

36:26

how we got to trumping and

36:28

power, is the just continuous crisis

36:30

in the US of governments doing

36:32

sweeps of encampments of unhouse people.

36:35

And to talk about really one

36:37

of the most horrifying things that

36:39

happens regularly in a country of

36:41

just unhinged and hideous horror is

36:43

Emma who does advocacy work for

36:45

unhouse and disabled people in Alameda

36:47

County and Satya who does support

36:49

during sweeps in Oakland when, yeah,

36:51

this fucking unhing shit happens. So

36:53

both of you two, welcome to

36:55

the show. Thanks for having us.

36:57

Yeah, thank you. Appreciate the chance

37:00

to talk with you. Yeah. I

37:02

always want to say that I'm

37:04

excited and like it is true.

37:06

However, I wish I ran a

37:08

podcast that was about like good

37:10

things so that I could talk

37:12

to people. It wasn't like, wasn't

37:14

being like, yeah, I'm excited to

37:16

talk about like the worst thing

37:18

that's happened. So I think a

37:20

place to start on this is,

37:22

when we talk about what a

37:24

sweep actually is. on the physical

37:27

level of what happens because I

37:29

think people really don't have a

37:31

sense of that. Yeah. Yeah, I

37:33

think Sophia, maybe you want to

37:35

take this one? Yeah, I'm happy

37:37

to take this one. Yeah, thank

37:39

you. I feel like, first of

37:41

all, before I even go into

37:43

it, yes, I think a lot

37:45

of people who have never experienced

37:47

a sweep or don't have loved

37:49

ones who have been swept. I

37:51

think a lot of people have

37:54

no idea what a sweep actually

37:56

consists of, even if in a

37:58

general sense they feel that it's

38:00

a bad thing or a wrong

38:02

thing. And I think part of

38:04

that is deliberate. Sweeps usually happen

38:06

during business hours during nine to

38:08

five hours because... at least in

38:10

Oakland, they're conducted by the Department

38:12

of Public Works, they're city employees,

38:14

they work nine to five, so

38:16

except in cases where they work

38:18

overtime or when the city uses

38:21

loopholes to get around posting notice

38:23

and ends up doing a sweep

38:25

on the weekend, they're usually happening

38:27

when a lot of middle-class housed

38:29

folks are at work and not,

38:31

you know, out and about seeing

38:33

what's going on. So a sweep,

38:35

and I'm primarily talking in the

38:37

context of Oakland California, think it's

38:39

safe to assume that these operate

38:41

in similar ways around the country.

38:43

Generally, what'll happen is you, let's

38:45

say you're living in an encampment,

38:48

a sweep has been posted, and

38:50

Oakland, there is policy that states

38:52

that you're supposed to have received

38:54

at least a week's notice. However,

38:56

a lot of people don't receive

38:58

this notice, so you might not

39:00

even know that it's happening. You

39:02

might wake up at around 9

39:04

AM to a bunch of heavy

39:06

machinery, pulling up, dump truck, small

39:08

bulldozers, other types of sort of

39:10

sort of like heavy equipment. and

39:12

then you'll have somebody from the

39:15

city administration like a city administrator's

39:17

assistant going around announcing that the

39:19

city of Oakland is there you

39:21

know making noise at your tent

39:23

or your car or wherever you're

39:25

staying saying hey this encampment is

39:27

being closed down you have to

39:29

be out of here there usually

39:31

are representatives of the city's contracted

39:33

outreach organization called operation dignity they're

39:35

supposed to be there very rarely

39:37

do they actually have or referral

39:39

for somewhere to go, they'll basically

39:42

just be like, hey, do you

39:44

want services? They won't usually specify

39:46

what the services are. They'll just

39:48

show up and be like, hey,

39:50

do you want services? If you

39:52

say yes or have questions about

39:54

what services are available, they may

39:56

give you a sort of very

39:58

vague run down of whatever might

40:00

be available that day because they

40:02

don't usually even know what's available

40:04

yet. So it kind of progressed.

40:06

from there I mean every sweep

40:09

is a little different but the

40:11

commonality between all of them is

40:13

that what the city is there

40:15

to do is essentially to erase

40:17

all sign that anybody ever lived

40:19

there. So either you are able

40:21

to pack as much stuff as

40:23

you can and get it out

40:25

of the eviction zone before the

40:27

city decides that it's your turn

40:29

to be targeted or all of

40:31

your stuff ends up in the

40:33

back of a dump truck. There

40:36

are other sort of... specific pieces

40:38

of policy and operational things that

40:40

can vary from time to time.

40:42

Like, for example, they're supposed to

40:44

follow a bag and tag policy,

40:46

which means that they're expected to

40:48

store up to a cubic yard

40:50

of somebody's belongings for 90 days

40:52

at a storage location in East

40:54

Oakland. they rarely do this unless

40:56

hounded to do so and most

40:58

of the time the actual process

41:01

of going back and reclaiming your

41:03

belongings from that location has enough

41:05

barriers that almost nobody ever manages

41:07

to do it. Yeah, so just

41:09

make this clear, the thing that

41:11

they're doing is they show up

41:13

and they fucking destroy all your

41:15

property. Yeah. Like the thing that

41:17

it most closely resembles is like

41:19

we're doing our own miniature ethnic

41:21

cleansing. So, like that's just like

41:23

what that is. Yeah. Every suite

41:25

there are at least several police,

41:28

you know, depending on the size

41:30

of the suite that can be

41:32

even more. And so there is

41:34

a very real threat of police

41:36

violence like underlying every single encampment

41:38

suite. And so the suite that

41:40

Oakland this week practices that Oakland

41:42

has set up are like very

41:44

kind of odd and they are

41:46

associated with. different like lawsuits that

41:48

have occurred in the past couple

41:50

of actually since the 70s. But

41:52

so there are certain requirements that

41:55

the city of Oakland is obligated

41:57

to follow in like certain provisions

41:59

and offers that like homeless people.

42:01

are technically supposed to be receiving

42:03

and for a bunch of

42:05

complicated reasons like rarely ever

42:07

are. So for instance like

42:09

the back and tag policy

42:12

that Satya was just discussing

42:14

like Dave recently somebody did

42:17

a PRA request to see

42:19

whether or not to say

42:21

he was actually following faithfully

42:24

following that policy and I

42:26

think in like over a year there

42:28

were I believe eight

42:30

bag-in-tides that were registered

42:33

in the city's system.

42:35

And that was in that

42:37

same period. There were like

42:39

well over a hundred sweeps,

42:42

you know. I don't have the

42:44

exact number on me. But,

42:46

or yeah, actually five

42:48

hundred and thirty-seven closure.

42:51

Two instances of storing

42:54

property. So, you know,

42:56

people's people. their whole

42:58

lives, all their possessions, like

43:01

precious items that they're able to

43:03

hang on to are just, yeah,

43:05

destroyed and they never see them again.

43:07

And I would also add to the

43:09

piece around like the quote, like offer

43:11

of services, like that's also

43:13

something written into their policy

43:16

that they're supposed to be

43:18

connecting people to housing ahead

43:20

of sweeps, and that's what they

43:23

use to continually justify the way

43:25

that they operate is that In

43:27

for example, city council meetings and

43:30

homelessness commission meetings where city admin

43:32

is questioned on their procedures because

43:35

they get complaints like the homeless

43:37

commission gets complaints constantly of people.

43:39

being mistreated, losing all their belongings,

43:42

never getting referred to housing, and

43:44

so forth. And the justification

43:46

that's constantly used is like, well, we're

43:48

offering people services every time and they

43:50

just refuse them. And I think that

43:52

that is pretty much the number one

43:55

mythology that is continuing to spur a

43:57

lot of the like pro sweep

43:59

discourse in Oakland. specifically, and I'm sure

44:01

in other parts of the country as

44:03

well. And people are not, like, to be

44:05

clear, most of the time, people are not

44:08

actually being offered services. It's just

44:10

not happening. Yeah. Yeah, this is

44:12

a national discourse. You hear this all

44:15

time. You know, I think a lot

44:17

of it kind of is concentrated in

44:19

the most unhinged, like, tech sectors in

44:21

the bay, but like you hear, like,

44:24

officially, Elon Musk has talked about, like,

44:26

like, oh, there's like, like, like, a

44:28

homeless industrial complex, they want to live

44:30

on the street and like they're like

44:33

turning down houses all the time and

44:35

it's just like it's so it's so

44:37

completely unmoored from reality but What's funny

44:39

is I've actually used the term homeless

44:42

industrial complex myself. I didn't know that

44:44

was there. That's hilarious. There is a

44:46

homeless industrial complex. It's just that the

44:49

people making money off of it are

44:51

the people who are perpetrating the sweeps.

44:53

The reason that they're not actually

44:55

putting forth real solutions that will

44:58

get people into safe shelter and

45:00

housing is because they're the ones

45:02

benefiting from the perpetuation of these

45:04

economic conditions. Yeah. There's so many

45:07

things that I like want to

45:09

pick up on but I guess

45:11

just on that point specifically like

45:13

there was an audit into

45:16

California's spending on homelessness.

45:18

I believe it was over

45:21

a period of seven years

45:23

and it showed that there

45:25

was 24 billion dollars spent

45:27

on grants to nonprofits or

45:30

cities to provide people with

45:32

different services. that are

45:34

kind of designed around

45:36

homelessness and providing

45:39

housing or legal services. Like

45:41

there's a whole range of things

45:43

that's out there, but a lot

45:46

of the time, like, these are

45:48

the only options that are available

45:51

to people and they tend

45:53

to produce less than still

45:55

the results. So out of the

45:57

24 billion dollars that was was

46:00

allocated to help homeless people

46:02

in that same period of

46:05

time, homelessness in California

46:07

just like skyrocketed, right?

46:09

So rates of homelessness

46:12

increased while this money was

46:14

getting pumped into the pockets

46:16

of the bank accounts of

46:18

like landlords and developers. It

46:21

is an issue that people

46:23

on us and developers. It is

46:25

an issue that people on every

46:27

side of the. a little cool

46:29

compass, but they like to use

46:31

this point to their own, like

46:34

ends, right? So Elon must talk

46:36

about it, and like people on

46:38

the left will talk about it. But

46:40

I think like the experience

46:43

that people on the street

46:45

have is very different than

46:47

any of these narratives that

46:49

you tend to hear in the

46:51

media. Yeah, so unfortunately,

46:54

we need to take an ad break.

46:56

I don't have a good position

46:59

here. I don't know. We'll

47:01

move a one set of

47:03

horrors to a slightly different

47:05

set of horrors and

47:07

come back to the first

47:10

set of horrors. All

47:12

of this money is

47:14

being dedicated to these

47:16

programs and homelessness is

47:18

only rising. I think

47:21

like one thing that I've

47:23

heard before that's... a kind

47:25

of useful way to think

47:28

about this kind of government

47:30

spending is if homeless people would

47:32

be better off if you just gave

47:34

them the money directly, you know,

47:36

then that kind of way it's really

47:38

hard to justify these programs when

47:40

that can't be said of them, you

47:42

know. And I think the thing that you

47:45

pointed out Emma about the fact

47:47

that we have huge amounts of

47:49

money allegedly being spent on my

47:51

homelessness abatement or homeless services at the

47:53

same time that homelessness is skyrocketing is

47:55

really not an accident because what that money

47:57

is really being spent on is to fuel.

48:00

Exactly, what is it like the

48:02

homeless industrial complex? There's a reason

48:04

that most of that money is

48:06

going into the pockets of landlords

48:08

and developers and then sort of

48:11

like these sort of large like

48:13

non-profit almost like conglomerates of like

48:15

service providers. And it's because the

48:17

primary point of homelessness services as

48:20

it exists in this country is not

48:22

to get homeless people into housing, it's

48:24

to line the pockets of. the people

48:26

that are making the most money off

48:28

of the real estate market anyway. And

48:30

so because of that, it is

48:33

not an accident that you see

48:35

homeless spending and homelessness like

48:37

escalating at the same time. It's

48:39

because this is the feedback loop.

48:41

Like this is the way that

48:43

our, you know, economic priorities in

48:46

this country are structured are such that

48:48

those two things are going to feed

48:50

into each other because that money

48:52

doesn't actually exist to like... serve

48:55

the populations that they say that they're

48:57

using it to serve. What they do get

48:59

to do is by claiming that that money

49:01

is going into homelessness abatement, when clearly it

49:03

isn't, they then get to spin a narrative

49:05

where they say, oh, we've spent all this

49:07

money, but the problem is just getting worse.

49:10

That must mean that it is the fault

49:12

of unhoused people and that they're choosing this,

49:14

because clearly the services must exist to get

49:16

them off the street. In reality, that's not

49:18

the case at all. Yeah, I think

49:21

also it's super important

49:23

for people to understand

49:25

that these programs,

49:27

housing programs, shelter programs,

49:30

they are out there,

49:32

but they are decoupled

49:34

from the sweep operations

49:36

that are occurring, right?

49:38

So the city of

49:40

Oakland, they are contracted

49:42

with a non-profit softie

49:44

mentioned earlier, cooperation dignity,

49:46

and they are. required

49:48

to check in with

49:50

different like encampments that

49:52

are scheduled to be

49:54

closed at least a

49:56

week before the the

49:58

suite and the purpose of that

50:01

is to like notify people that

50:03

it's happening there the city of

50:05

Oakland is required for the terms

50:07

of this lawsuit back in I

50:10

believe 2019 the Morales lawsuit and

50:12

there was a settlement that resulted

50:14

in the city being required to

50:16

provide clear notices whenever they're going

50:19

to close like a site. So

50:21

yeah. this non-profit provider is supposed

50:23

to notify people and try to

50:25

get them connected with services. However,

50:27

the services, for the most part,

50:30

like housing for people who are

50:32

unhoused, is largely funded through the

50:34

federal government and through this very

50:36

complex and inaccessible system called coordinated

50:39

entry. The coordinated entry system. is

50:41

not something that the city of

50:43

Oakland or Operation Dignity, like, that

50:45

is not something that they're providing

50:48

people with during the suite. So

50:50

when the city of Oakland, like,

50:52

for instance, and one of the

50:54

Commission on homelessness meetings, the city

50:56

administrator, Harold Duffy, he presented actually

50:59

in response to a question. about

51:01

somebody's wheelchair being destroyed by public

51:03

works. Yeah. He gave this really

51:05

like roundabout deflecting like answer where

51:08

he said basically that everyone who

51:10

is at an encampment at the

51:12

time of a sweep has like

51:14

expressly refused services like shelter or

51:17

housing or whatever. And that kind

51:19

of presumes that the city actually

51:21

has opportunities that they can provide

51:23

people with. which is just not

51:26

the case. The coordinated entry system,

51:28

it is a program that is

51:30

first of all, like only people

51:32

who are disabled can get what's

51:34

called permanent supportive housing through the

51:37

program, but also it is in

51:39

such high demand and is so

51:41

inadequate to the needs that Alameda

51:43

County is currently like the situation

51:46

that are in. like thousands of

51:48

people long and it can take

51:50

well over a year before someone

51:52

can get housing through that system.

51:55

So it's just like it's not

51:57

true. They do offer people what

51:59

are called community cabins which are

52:01

tough sheds. They're not even offering

52:04

people that they're full. Yeah, that's

52:06

what they say they offer. Sorry

52:08

I didn't mean to cut you

52:10

off. I feel strongly about this.

52:12

So I think it's also worth

52:15

saying like in terms of I

52:17

feel like that's a really a

52:19

really useful layout Emma in terms

52:21

of like the way that the

52:24

system is actually structured for people

52:26

not to be able to access

52:28

services. I feel like it's also

52:30

worth pointing out that just day

52:33

to day on the ground I

52:35

feel like I get to see

52:37

a lot of sort of like

52:39

minute details and changes in a

52:42

way that they're operating in response

52:44

to what. their like internal systems

52:46

actually look like and what we

52:48

have seen over the last six

52:50

months to a year is not

52:53

only this pattern that I was

52:55

talking about of like their like

52:57

people are consistently not getting connected

52:59

with services and then being accused

53:02

of refusing services just due to

53:04

the conditions that they're living under

53:06

but also everything that Oakland has

53:08

and that approaches like livable transitional

53:11

housing which is kind of laughable

53:13

in this case because we can

53:15

also go into like the conditions

53:17

of the transitional housing programs and

53:20

shelters in Oakland which are abysmal

53:22

but everything that they have approaches

53:24

livable transitional housing is full. I

53:26

very rarely, every few weeks maybe

53:28

I see one or two people

53:31

get referred to one of those

53:33

programs and far more often I'll

53:35

be in a situation. For example

53:37

I was I was at a

53:40

sweep over near 23rd and Northgate

53:42

a couple weeks ago and I

53:44

was there when Operation Dignity rolled

53:46

up and I heard what they

53:49

were saying when they were talking

53:51

to people and this one dude

53:53

was going around talking to folks

53:55

and he kind of... he wasn't

53:58

even approaching talking about services he

54:00

was approaching being like hand just

54:02

here to let you know that

54:04

this area is going to be

54:06

closed down like there's a sweep

54:09

that's going to be happening so

54:11

you guys have to be out

54:13

of here so that was what

54:15

they led with and then I

54:18

prompted him because I was there

54:20

chatting with one of the guys

54:22

that he was talking to so

54:24

I prompted him I was like

54:27

do you have any services to

54:29

offer and then he was like

54:31

oh you can go over to

54:33

St Vincent de Paul which is

54:35

a congregate shelter in West Oakland

54:38

with about 40 beds And nobody

54:40

is guaranteed a spot, it's just

54:42

a room full of cots. A

54:44

lot of people refuse to go

54:47

there because the conditions are so

54:49

terrible and they don't feel comfortable

54:51

or safe sleeping in a room

54:53

full of a bunch of strangers

54:56

with no kind of security, no

54:58

guarantee of being able to hold

55:00

on to their stuff. People are

55:02

only allowed to bring in like

55:05

a backpacks worth of stuff, I'm

55:07

pretty sure. And you also have

55:09

to, it's first come first service,

55:11

you have to line up outside.

55:13

So you have a situation where...

55:16

the availability of services varies from

55:18

day to day. I cannot think

55:20

of a single sweep in the

55:22

last year that I have been

55:25

to, and I'm at usually multiple

55:27

sweeps a week, where there were

55:29

enough guaranteed spots available for every

55:31

person being swept. So the implicit

55:34

assumption at every single sweep, and

55:36

the operation dignity people know this

55:38

too, like they know this, the

55:40

implicit assumption when they roll up.

55:43

And the assumption that colors even

55:45

the tenor of all of their

55:47

conversations that they're having with people

55:49

is that the majority of people

55:51

are just going to have to

55:54

figure out how to pack their

55:56

shit up and fight another place

55:58

to camp. It's the assumption. And

56:00

it's gotten to the point... where

56:03

like OD employees will roll up

56:05

and like I said, they won't

56:07

even necessarily lead with an offer

56:09

of services. They'll lead almost in

56:12

the hopes that the majority of

56:14

people already have a place to

56:16

relocate. They'll ask, do you have

56:18

a place to go? Before they

56:21

offer services or ask if people

56:23

are entered into services, they'll ask,

56:25

do you have a place to

56:27

go before they offer services or

56:29

ask if people are entered into

56:32

because they don't have fucking have

56:34

anything. Yeah. I think it's super

56:36

important to. just emphasize that point.

56:38

The city is telling the media,

56:41

they're telling like businesses, anyone that

56:43

comes to them with problems related

56:45

to like homelessness or concerns, they're

56:47

telling them that everyone is being

56:50

offered shelter and housing. And it's

56:52

just not true. And that is

56:54

reflective in the city's own publicly

56:56

available data. So they actually. publish

56:59

like a list of all of

57:01

the encampment suites that they've

57:03

they do throughout the year and

57:05

in the Commission on Homelessness

57:07

meetings will like report back to

57:10

the commission about like service enrollments

57:12

that they've done through a

57:14

certain period of time and like

57:17

from May to September they

57:19

had enrolled I believe it

57:21

was 60 people into services like

57:23

non-specified services and during that

57:25

period there was approximately 80 sweeps

57:28

and if you assume there's

57:30

at least 5 to 10

57:32

people at every encampment when they

57:34

do a sweep and usually

57:36

it's more that is like 9%

57:38

4.5% of people like getting

57:40

enrolled into and services and like

57:43

of those maybe. a smaller fraction

57:45

getting into shelter. And when

57:47

they get into shelter, they just

57:50

languish there, right? They aren't

57:52

connected with case workers who

57:54

helped them get through this really

57:56

convoluted coordinated entry process, and

57:58

like lengthy coordinated entry process. And

58:00

so within a few months,

58:02

they're just right back on the

58:05

street, you know. It's just ridiculous

58:07

and unfortunately because homeless people

58:09

have very little like I guess

58:12

you could call it social

58:14

capital you know the city

58:16

can get away with a lot

58:18

of this stuff they do

58:20

like blatantly illegal things that are

58:22

against even their own policies

58:24

and nothing happens and I guess

58:27

like maybe we should back up

58:29

a little bit and discuss

58:31

the city's policy. We are back.

58:34

Yeah, so yeah, let's talk

58:36

about, I think, what the

58:38

city's policies are supposed to mark.

58:40

We are back. Yeah, so

58:42

yeah, let's talk about what the

58:45

city's policies are supposed to

58:47

be versus like what they're actually

58:49

doing on the ground. Yeah, I

58:51

mean their policy is their

58:53

cover your ass technique, right? Their

58:56

policy is what they refer

58:58

back to whenever they want

59:00

to sort of like like Emma

59:02

said if they're interfacing with

59:04

businesses or house people, you know,

59:07

and we have a whole

59:09

range of house people calling free-on-one,

59:11

which is basically their tip line

59:13

for like, oh, you see

59:15

a homeless person, you don't want

59:18

to be seen. But there's

59:20

a whole range of people,

59:22

there's people that are actively malicious

59:24

and violent, and there's literally

59:26

people going out doing vigilante shit

59:29

and like destroying homeless people

59:31

stuff on their own, and then

59:33

you also have people that are

59:35

well-intentioned. and really think the

59:37

city is offering services. So you

59:40

have this whole umbrella and

59:42

the narrative that the city

59:44

sells to everybody is bolstered by

59:46

their policy. The purpose their

59:48

policy serves is not to inform

59:51

their actions, but to inform

59:53

their PR. So I think

59:55

it would be helpful. Emma, how

59:57

do you feel about if

59:59

you want to kind of give

1:00:02

a breakdown of the city's

1:00:04

policy and then I can kind

1:00:06

of give a breakdown into what

1:00:08

that translates into on the

1:00:10

ground? Yeah. So this is, like,

1:00:13

it's kind of a complicated

1:00:15

situation, but. The city has

1:00:17

what they call their encampment management

1:00:19

policy and it was initially

1:00:21

passed in, I believe, 2020, but

1:00:24

it's gone through like several

1:00:26

evolutions over the past 10 years

1:00:28

or so. And it is related

1:00:30

to different Supreme Court cases

1:00:32

and the settlement that I mentioned

1:00:35

earlier mentioned earlier. So this

1:00:37

policy, it provides certain very

1:00:39

limited protections for people who are

1:00:41

homeless in the city limits.

1:00:43

The city is required by this

1:00:46

policy to offer shelter. I

1:00:48

believe it's a week for any

1:00:50

person who's like subject to one

1:00:52

of their encampment closures. And

1:00:55

Also, we mentioned the back and

1:00:57

tag policy, so if somebody,

1:00:59

you know, they are addicted

1:01:01

and they move somewhere outside with

1:01:03

a tent, they bring all

1:01:05

of their possessions with them. They

1:01:08

are provided with a, I

1:01:10

believe, three foot by three foot

1:01:12

like storage space in this facility

1:01:15

that is super inaccessible and

1:01:17

kind of like, I don't even

1:01:19

know if it's, you know,

1:01:21

if it's. actually real to

1:01:23

be honest because it's just like

1:01:25

nobody ever I've never heard

1:01:27

of anybody actually like getting their

1:01:30

stuff stored and getting back,

1:01:32

but technically that is a possibility.

1:01:34

However, the city will only hold

1:01:37

on to it for so

1:01:39

long before they throw it away.

1:01:41

And then the last protection

1:01:43

or provision is the city

1:01:45

was until recently supposed to provide

1:01:47

people with shelter. So a

1:01:49

few different Supreme Court cases are

1:01:52

behind that provision specifically and

1:01:54

I think a lot of cities

1:01:56

kind of had a similar. policy

1:01:59

framework that they were following

1:02:01

until the grants passed ruling and

1:02:03

I guess like maybe we

1:02:05

don't need to get and

1:02:07

to dot too much but basically

1:02:10

the the whole idea of

1:02:12

that policy was like if somebody

1:02:14

is outside living outside and

1:02:16

the city suites them they

1:02:18

have to provide them with some

1:02:20

kind of alternative accommodation. because

1:02:22

according to the 9th District Court,

1:02:25

it was considered like cruel

1:02:27

and unusual punishment to penalize somebody

1:02:29

for being homeless without, you know,

1:02:32

offering them some kind of

1:02:34

temporary accommodations. And so that was

1:02:36

more or less the city's

1:02:38

nominal framework for several years,

1:02:40

basically. And the degree to which

1:02:42

they actually follow these policies,

1:02:44

you know, they really didn't except

1:02:47

for in certain situations where

1:02:49

there are like, for instance, legal

1:02:51

advocates who will file injunctions to

1:02:54

stop the city from doing

1:02:56

a sweep on the basis of

1:02:58

like failure to provide an

1:03:00

alternative accommodation. And typically those

1:03:02

arise when there is a very

1:03:04

large... clearing operation but is

1:03:06

scheduled and a contentious issue. You

1:03:09

know, a lot of the

1:03:11

time, for instance, there'll be people

1:03:13

staying on city or the California

1:03:16

state land and the city

1:03:18

will like force them to move

1:03:20

because of some development project

1:03:22

that they're planning to do.

1:03:24

And so in those situations when

1:03:27

the media has kind of

1:03:29

narrowed their focus and began like

1:03:31

discussing some of this stuff

1:03:33

in the local press then like

1:03:35

something like that became possible but

1:03:38

after the grants passed ruling

1:03:40

this past year the city was

1:03:42

no longer like obligated under

1:03:44

federal law to follow those

1:03:46

policies and in September of last

1:03:49

year the late mayor, Shanghai,

1:03:51

she issued an executive order that

1:03:53

more or less like just

1:03:55

totally like rendered that policy framework

1:03:57

irrelevant. So she put forth a

1:04:00

new framework that allows the

1:04:02

city to sweep encampments under a

1:04:04

tiered system of what are

1:04:06

called emergency suites. So If,

1:04:08

for instance, the encampment is blocking

1:04:11

a roadway or a sidewalk,

1:04:13

then it is a hazard to

1:04:15

the public, quote, unquote. Or

1:04:17

if it's somebody has a

1:04:19

tent that is up against a

1:04:21

building of some sort, it's

1:04:23

a fire hazard. And so... in

1:04:26

this tiered system, there's like

1:04:28

different levels of safety hazards that

1:04:30

they're doing now and basically what

1:04:33

that looks like is like

1:04:35

a fire marshal and the city

1:04:37

administrator will convene. after somebody

1:04:39

calls in a complaint about

1:04:41

somebody that's staying outside by their

1:04:44

business and with the fire

1:04:46

hazard one, I believe that they

1:04:48

can just sweep without any

1:04:50

prior notice, whereas the other two,

1:04:52

there is some like level of

1:04:55

notice that they're technically required

1:04:57

to provide, but yeah, so the

1:04:59

shelter provisions and the notice

1:05:01

and storage, like they're technically

1:05:03

still. supposed to follow that by

1:05:06

their own city resolution, but

1:05:08

there is this provision that like

1:05:10

if for instance they issue

1:05:12

somebody like a no or a

1:05:14

one hour notice to leave because

1:05:17

of like a fire hazard

1:05:19

and like advocates can't make it

1:05:21

there because they don't really

1:05:23

know they've nobody knows it's

1:05:25

happening. then the city can just

1:05:28

do that and not offer

1:05:30

people anything, right? So these policies

1:05:32

have the effect of disempowering

1:05:34

our ability to respond to like

1:05:36

a scheduled operation, then the city

1:05:39

can really just do whatever

1:05:41

they want because nobody's watching what

1:05:43

they're what they're doing. I

1:05:45

guess we can, I think

1:05:47

we can take this here towards

1:05:50

something I think would probably

1:05:52

be good to. start closing on,

1:05:54

which is like, what can

1:05:56

people actually do about this? First

1:05:59

of all, I think listening to

1:06:01

all of this, it can

1:06:03

be really easy to feel disempowered

1:06:05

and to feel like, you

1:06:07

know, the walls are closing

1:06:09

in and that there's nothing that

1:06:12

we can do. And that

1:06:14

remains not the case. You know,

1:06:16

I think people should feel

1:06:18

empowered to be able to physically

1:06:21

intervene because the most effective way

1:06:23

of physically intervening with this

1:06:25

kind of violence is to commit

1:06:27

to relationship building, something that

1:06:29

I've talked. about a lot

1:06:31

with sort of like fellow advocates

1:06:34

and folks that are kind

1:06:36

of involved in like sweeps response

1:06:38

and crisis response in Oakland

1:06:40

is that the one thing

1:06:42

that the city cannot take away

1:06:45

from us, that we have

1:06:47

an advantage over them in, is

1:06:49

relationship building. Part of the

1:06:51

reason that, for example, the operation

1:06:53

dignity employees are so inefficient and

1:06:56

so, you know, something that

1:06:58

I've talked about a lot with

1:07:00

sort of like fellow advocates

1:07:02

and folks that are kind

1:07:04

of involved in like sweeps response

1:07:07

and crisis response in Oakland

1:07:09

is that the one thing that

1:07:11

the city cannot take away

1:07:13

from us that we have an

1:07:16

advantage over them in is relationship

1:07:18

building. Part of the reason

1:07:20

that, for example, the operation dignity

1:07:22

employees are so inefficient and

1:07:24

so, you know, seemingly bad

1:07:26

at their jobs is not just

1:07:29

the fact that they don't

1:07:31

have anything to offer, but also

1:07:33

because everybody on the street

1:07:35

knows they're full of shit, because

1:07:38

they never show up with anything

1:07:40

real. And... Addressing house people

1:07:42

in particular, right? Like one of

1:07:44

the things to get out

1:07:46

of is sort of like

1:07:48

the saviour mentality or the guilt

1:07:51

mentality of like, oh, like,

1:07:53

I don't have any housing to

1:07:55

offer, therefore I can't do

1:07:57

anything, like I can't fix the

1:08:00

problem, I can't fix the root,

1:08:02

so I can't do anything.

1:08:04

In reality, all you really need

1:08:06

to do is to learn

1:08:08

to set that mentality aside

1:08:10

and show up and like start

1:08:13

meeting folks where they're at,

1:08:15

start building relationships, you need to

1:08:17

know like if you live

1:08:19

in a particular neighborhood. Think to

1:08:22

yourself, I need to know that

1:08:24

if any unhouse person within

1:08:26

a mile radius of my home

1:08:29

was disappeared, I would need

1:08:31

to know. You know what

1:08:33

I mean? Like I would want

1:08:35

to know if that happened.

1:08:37

So if you go out with

1:08:39

that understanding that you're starting

1:08:41

to build lifelong relationships with the

1:08:44

folks that are living outside in

1:08:46

your neighborhood, ideally a lot

1:08:48

of other people in your neighborhood

1:08:51

too, you know what I

1:08:53

mean? But like, what they're

1:08:55

banking on is... Right now, while

1:08:57

they're still trying to use

1:08:59

a PR cover for what they're

1:09:01

doing, what they're banking on

1:09:03

is people not talking to

1:09:05

each other, people not finding out

1:09:08

about the abuses, people not

1:09:10

finding out about the violations, people

1:09:12

not being there, and people

1:09:14

not having relationships that will remain

1:09:17

strong. even as they try to

1:09:19

physically scatter people's communities. And

1:09:21

what you can do to start

1:09:23

is start investing in those

1:09:25

relationships. Make sure you know

1:09:28

what people's names are. Make sure

1:09:30

you would know if somebody's

1:09:32

routine was suddenly disrupted. Hey, Beck,

1:09:34

I used to be on

1:09:36

that corner. You know, every couple

1:09:39

days of the week, and now

1:09:41

I never see them anymore.

1:09:43

What happened to him? And I

1:09:46

think you can start there,

1:09:48

and there's much more that

1:09:50

you can concretely do. I mean,

1:09:52

one of the ways that

1:09:54

I'm accustomed to showing up at

1:09:56

this point is... direct on

1:09:58

the ground sweeps response so we're

1:10:01

still able to keep track currently

1:10:03

of what their schedule is

1:10:05

on a weekly basis more or

1:10:08

less like there's definitely operations

1:10:10

we don't find out about

1:10:12

until after the fact but the

1:10:14

majority of their weekday operations

1:10:16

we do still know about ahead

1:10:18

of time and so we'll

1:10:20

show up we'll make sure we

1:10:23

get there before the city does

1:10:25

so like by 8 a.m.m.

1:10:27

ideally right like we show up

1:10:30

talk to people will be

1:10:32

like what do you need

1:10:34

do you need physical help moving

1:10:36

your belongings out of the

1:10:38

eviction? to borrow somebody's phone so

1:10:40

that you can call somebody

1:10:43

who said they were going to

1:10:45

come help you. Do you need

1:10:47

help pushing or pulling your

1:10:49

vehicle? Any number of things really,

1:10:52

but just like being willing

1:10:54

to show up and ask

1:10:56

questions about necessarily knowing what answers

1:10:58

you're going to get and

1:11:00

being down to follow up and

1:11:03

do after-knowing what answers you're

1:11:05

going to get and being down

1:11:07

to follow up and like do

1:11:09

aftercare with people and check

1:11:11

in on folks and like keep

1:11:14

building those relationships. be able

1:11:16

to successfully create a scapegoat,

1:11:18

right? They want to create like

1:11:20

a faceless, nameless mass of

1:11:22

people that they can pin all

1:11:25

their problems on and then

1:11:27

incarcerate. And the best thing

1:11:29

that we can do is make

1:11:31

sure that they can't successfully

1:11:33

do that because we all have

1:11:35

relationships to each other. Yeah.

1:11:37

And I think like the Oakland

1:11:40

like advocates doing like eviction defense

1:11:42

for people who are living

1:11:44

outside. It's grown in size and

1:11:47

like capacity quite a bit

1:11:49

in the past here and

1:11:51

like the city has noticed that

1:11:53

so they've actually like they

1:11:55

past various resolutions and honestly a

1:11:58

lot of their practices and

1:12:00

their policies like their encampment management

1:12:02

team they seem to be like

1:12:04

responding to the increasing effectiveness

1:12:06

of this response just like network

1:12:09

of community defense and and

1:12:11

so I think that like

1:12:13

all of those things are so

1:12:15

important especially as the term.

1:12:17

regime starts to eliminate the very

1:12:20

modest social safety net that

1:12:22

there was. And you know, before

1:12:24

we end this conversation, I just

1:12:26

want to emphasize that in

1:12:28

Oakland, like a majority of the

1:12:31

people who are homeless and

1:12:33

are subject to state violence,

1:12:35

they are non-white violence. They are

1:12:37

non-white. mostly black and are

1:12:39

homeless in neighborhoods where they used

1:12:42

to be housed. And so

1:12:44

the gentrification has happened particularly in

1:12:46

like West Oakland and the like

1:12:48

influx of high-income tech workers

1:12:50

that displaced them and moved into

1:12:53

their like family homes. they

1:12:55

are the same people who

1:12:57

are calling 311 to like push

1:12:59

the city to displace them

1:13:01

again, but from a tent or

1:13:04

a car this time. And

1:13:06

I think it's it's just so

1:13:08

so important that particularly like housed

1:13:11

people try to tap into

1:13:13

the networks of community defense that

1:13:15

exist in their areas. I'm

1:13:17

sure that most cities probably

1:13:19

have something comparable to to Oakland,

1:13:21

but with the measures that

1:13:23

we're seeing. cities begin to take

1:13:26

such as in Fremont, which

1:13:28

is about 30 minutes south of

1:13:30

Oakland, where they basically banned or

1:13:33

criminalized mutual aid with unhouse

1:13:35

people. So you can get $1,000

1:13:37

fine or up to six

1:13:39

months in jail for dating

1:13:41

and abetting a homeless person. And

1:13:43

you know, it's an extremely

1:13:45

vague. law. So like giving someone

1:13:48

a blanket could fall under

1:13:50

this. So you could be

1:13:52

fined or put in jail for

1:13:54

giving an unhouse person a

1:13:56

blanket in Fremont currently. So it's

1:13:59

very important that people try

1:14:01

to be aware of their city

1:14:03

government, how they're maybe passing anti-homeless

1:14:05

measures in their cities and

1:14:07

trying to mobilize against that from

1:14:10

happening. I also have one

1:14:12

more thing to add to

1:14:14

that I'm so sorry. Specifically for

1:14:16

anybody thinking about getting involved

1:14:18

or organizing strategically around community defense,

1:14:21

sweep defense, whatever that looks

1:14:23

like in your particular area, I

1:14:25

would say, first of all, especially

1:14:28

if you're a house person

1:14:30

in this case, like invest valuable

1:14:32

time into getting to know

1:14:34

people on an interpersonal level

1:14:36

and getting to know people's needs

1:14:38

first instead of falling into

1:14:40

the trap of sort of imposing

1:14:43

what you might have learned

1:14:45

through like other sort of direct

1:14:47

action organizing because this is not

1:14:50

that you know like I

1:14:52

think yeah first of all just

1:14:54

making sure that you're being

1:14:56

your organizing is being led

1:14:58

by the needs of you know

1:15:00

homeless residents that are expressing

1:15:02

what they need to you but

1:15:05

also on top of that

1:15:07

when it comes to this particular

1:15:09

draconian waves of legislation that are

1:15:12

being passed around like anti-homeless

1:15:14

laws and stuff, don't preemptively obey.

1:15:16

You know what I mean?

1:15:18

Like if you live in

1:15:20

Fremont, don't preemptively say, ah, fuck,

1:15:22

I better stop passing out

1:15:24

blankets. Because what we've seen in

1:15:27

Oakland with the particular iterations

1:15:29

of anti-homeless... legislation that they've passed

1:15:31

here is that just because they've

1:15:34

passed legislation doesn't mean that

1:15:36

they feel confident in enforcing it

1:15:38

yet. And what you need

1:15:40

to do really is step

1:15:42

up real hard and show them

1:15:45

you can't enforce this the

1:15:47

way that you want to, and

1:15:49

they're going to push back.

1:15:51

There's going to be this

1:15:53

back-and-forth interplay that we've seen, you

1:15:55

know, for example, in Oakland

1:15:57

with the safe works and ordinance,

1:16:00

which we can probably get

1:16:02

into another time because it's way

1:16:04

too much to get into right

1:16:07

now, I think at this.

1:16:09

it's a two-way street, it's this

1:16:11

fight that you have to

1:16:13

play to show them, just

1:16:15

because you've passed this legislation, doesn't

1:16:17

mean you can enforce it

1:16:19

in a particular way. You have

1:16:22

to give them something to

1:16:24

fight against, you know what I

1:16:26

mean? So that's just the other

1:16:29

piece. Yeah. Yeah, and like

1:16:31

in the rest of their policy

1:16:33

is absolutely 100% evidence that

1:16:35

if they say doesn't want

1:16:37

to follow the law, it isn't

1:16:39

real. But that also means

1:16:41

that like if they can't enforce

1:16:44

a force is here. Yeah,

1:16:46

and there is a lawsuit currently

1:16:48

against that and it sounds like,

1:16:51

you know, the city of

1:16:53

Fremont is probably going to be

1:16:55

removing that aiding and abetting

1:16:57

clause from the resolution, but

1:16:59

because that specific provision is actually

1:17:02

like in the city's municipal

1:17:04

code as a general provision. So,

1:17:06

you know, even if they

1:17:08

do remove it, charges could still

1:17:10

be brought against somebody. So like

1:17:13

really the entire ordinance needs

1:17:15

to be eliminated altogether. Yeah, I

1:17:17

guess, do you have anything

1:17:19

else that you want to

1:17:21

make sure that you get in

1:17:24

before we close this up?

1:17:26

I don't think so. Nothing that

1:17:28

comes to mind. But yeah,

1:17:30

again, it's super appreciate you having

1:17:32

us on to talk about this.

1:17:35

Yeah, you know, shit is

1:17:37

rough right now. I think for

1:17:39

me personally, it's been really

1:17:41

helpful to. direct my energy

1:17:43

towards things and my social network.

1:17:46

and always that's like constructive

1:17:48

and helpful to others. So I

1:17:50

would definitely like suggest if

1:17:52

you're feeling like any despair or

1:17:54

like worried about becoming like black-pilled

1:17:57

or whatever, like yeah, just

1:17:59

try to tap in and focus

1:18:01

on things that are happening

1:18:03

in your community. It's good

1:18:05

for you and it's good for

1:18:08

the people in your community.

1:18:10

Yeah, just seconding that I think

1:18:12

like. being able to tap

1:18:14

in specifically with like the

1:18:16

types of unhouse organizing and underground

1:18:19

economies that exist wherever unhouse

1:18:21

people exist and like being able

1:18:23

to like Top into that

1:18:25

and like you know again like

1:18:27

speaking from the perspective of a

1:18:30

house person like really humble

1:18:32

yourself and learn from that like

1:18:34

you're gonna learn a whole

1:18:36

lot more relevant life skills

1:18:38

just hanging out in social settings

1:18:41

with people in the street

1:18:43

than you are in any other

1:18:45

area of your life so

1:18:47

just go balls to the wall

1:18:49

just start hanging out just like

1:18:52

spend all your time loitering

1:18:54

like just that's that's where we

1:18:56

need to be right now

1:18:58

is loitering in the street

1:19:00

that's where the organizing is happening

1:19:03

so yeah street claims space

1:19:05

oh yeah this has been it

1:19:07

could happen here go loitering

1:19:09

street quarters and make the state's

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The Dylan Hour. It's musical, Mayhem,

1:20:39

and it is going to be

1:20:41

so much fun. I like a

1:20:43

man. You like a man. What

1:20:45

do I like, Joe? You like

1:20:47

a man, too. We like a

1:20:49

man, too. No, not yet. Never

1:20:51

say never. I cannot wait for

1:20:53

all you girls gaze and days

1:20:55

to join me on this extremely

1:20:57

special pink confection of a podcast.

1:20:59

There is so much darkness in

1:21:01

this world and what I think

1:21:03

we could all use more of

1:21:05

is a little joy. Listen to

1:21:07

the Dylan hour on the I-Hart

1:21:09

Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1:21:11

you listen to your podcasts. Love

1:21:13

ya! Hey, you're listening to On

1:21:15

Purpose with Jay Shetty, and today

1:21:17

my guest. are none other than

1:21:19

Selina Gomez and Benny Blanco. I

1:21:21

can't wait for you to hear

1:21:23

this episode about their love story,

1:21:25

about their relationship, like you've never

1:21:27

heard it before. I want to

1:21:29

go back to the first time

1:21:32

you ever met. But we're watching

1:21:34

do you here. When you're a

1:21:36

pop star like she is, and

1:21:38

you're in a huge entity, and

1:21:40

people set up all these walls

1:21:42

before, and then the first second,

1:21:44

you like disarmed everybody. By the

1:21:46

way, congratulations on your engagement. What

1:21:48

I felt for Benny, it was

1:21:50

everything about him was honest. He'll

1:21:52

tell me anything that he's feeling

1:21:54

and it made me feel like

1:21:56

I could do the same. If

1:21:58

we would have met each other

1:22:00

when we were younger, it would

1:22:02

have never worked. Listen to On

1:22:04

Purpose with Jay Shetty on the

1:22:06

I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,

1:22:08

or wherever you get your podcast.

1:22:10

My husband cheated on me with

1:22:12

two women, he wants to stay

1:22:14

together because he has cancer. Should

1:22:16

I stay? Sam, that has to

1:22:18

be the craziest story in OK

1:22:20

story time podcast history. Well John,

1:22:22

that's because it's dump of week

1:22:24

and this user writes, my partner

1:22:26

told me when we first got

1:22:28

together that he has cancer. He's

1:22:30

currently, when we first got together,

1:22:33

that he has cancer. He's currently

1:22:35

living with his mom, while he's

1:22:37

in recovery, and this user writes,

1:22:39

my partner told me, he's currently

1:22:41

living with. He wasn't with her.

1:22:43

I went to Facebook and it

1:22:45

took me less than an... hour

1:22:47

to find the first two women

1:22:49

he was cheating on me. Oh,

1:22:51

what else is he lying about?

1:22:53

Well, one thing my paranoia just

1:22:55

wouldn't let up was about the

1:22:57

cancer in his treatments. I asked

1:22:59

his mom about it who told

1:23:01

me he doesn't have cancer. She

1:23:03

also informed me he was in

1:23:05

rehab, not the hospital. He suffered

1:23:07

from addiction and was trying to

1:23:09

recover for me and our babies.

1:23:11

Did she leave him? Well, to

1:23:13

find out how the story ends.

1:23:15

Listen and fall, the OK story

1:23:17

time, the OK story time, the

1:23:19

OK story time. Oh,

1:23:23

welcome to It Could Happen Here, a

1:23:26

podcast about how it's happened here, and

1:23:28

it continues to happen here. Sorry about

1:23:30

that, but we're not changing the name

1:23:33

of the podcast. You know? Because we're

1:23:35

not. Anyway, I got Jim Stout with

1:23:37

me, I got Garrison Davis with me.

1:23:40

Woot, woot. Huzzah. So, the past few

1:23:42

weeks, myself, as well as probably everyone

1:23:44

else on this call, has been getting...

1:23:47

a lot of questions from listeners via

1:23:49

the various social media apps that we

1:23:51

damage ourselves by logging in on a

1:23:53

much more than needed frequent basis. But

1:23:56

one question that's been kind of on

1:23:58

a lot of people's minds and something

1:24:00

that we've been discussing as like a

1:24:03

group is the idea of should you

1:24:05

flee the country? Is the party over,

1:24:07

do we need to use the time

1:24:10

we have now to get out? The

1:24:12

Trump administration is cracking down on a

1:24:14

whole bunch of groups of already marginalized

1:24:17

people. people with fewer resources, immigrants, people

1:24:19

who are here for asylum, a trans

1:24:21

people, queer people in general. It's getting

1:24:24

pretty scary out there and the thought

1:24:26

crosses your mind. Maybe there's somewhere else

1:24:28

that's better. And this has always been

1:24:30

a tough question for us to kind

1:24:33

of think about because we don't want

1:24:35

to like inspire panic. That's not the

1:24:37

purpose of what we do here. You

1:24:40

should try to spread calm when times

1:24:42

are bad if you can. But the

1:24:44

situation politically in the country and in

1:24:47

many parts of the world right now

1:24:49

is extremely fraught and it does feel

1:24:51

closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario

1:24:54

than kind of I've ever thought it

1:24:56

has before. So it's a really tough

1:24:58

question. Yeah. And I think what we're

1:25:01

going to be doing this episode is

1:25:03

just kind of talking about this question

1:25:05

and our thoughts around... you know, various

1:25:08

responses to this line of thought. And

1:25:10

I guess Robert kind of has a

1:25:12

baseline, like kind of quasi-answer, that I

1:25:14

think we can use as a jumping

1:25:17

off point. You know, if you're someone

1:25:19

who is being targeted, you know, or

1:25:21

in a community of people who are

1:25:24

being targeted, you're a naturalized citizen, you're

1:25:26

here on a green card, you're trans,

1:25:28

you're any kind, any of the many

1:25:31

different groups of people that are being

1:25:33

targeted right now, and you have the

1:25:35

opportunity. to leave and you think that

1:25:38

that's the right thing for you, then

1:25:40

you should do it. You shouldn't feel

1:25:42

bad about it. If you've got a

1:25:45

job that is in demand in other

1:25:47

countries and you know the process and

1:25:49

can start the process to like get

1:25:52

residency somewhere else and work somewhere else

1:25:54

and make your life work that way,

1:25:56

then I don't think you should feel

1:25:58

bad about doing that if that's what

1:26:01

you decide is the right thing for

1:26:03

you. That said, it's not. It just

1:26:05

simply not. going to be a realistic

1:26:08

possibility for most people. What is more

1:26:10

realistic for a lot of people is,

1:26:12

for example, moving from states where the

1:26:15

risk is higher to states where maybe

1:26:17

the risk is lower, hard to say

1:26:19

how long the risk will be lower,

1:26:22

you know? But I certainly, that's more

1:26:24

achievable for a lot of people than

1:26:26

getting set up in a foreign country,

1:26:29

as James will talk about. If your

1:26:31

hope is just, I'm going to try

1:26:33

to go somewhere else like Europe or

1:26:35

whatever, as an asylum seeker. as again,

1:26:38

James will go into more detail on

1:26:40

life ain't easy for asylum seekers. And

1:26:42

that's not really, again, it may not

1:26:45

be nearly as much of an option

1:26:47

as you think that it is right

1:26:49

now. I, you know, had to go

1:26:52

through kind of my own process after

1:26:54

the election of like, well, am I

1:26:56

gonna like, you know, get my finances

1:26:59

in order and move to another country

1:27:01

and basically try to like pay my

1:27:03

way into getting a visa somewhere like

1:27:06

in Spain, which is an option for

1:27:08

someone like me. Nah, you know, if

1:27:10

the worst case thing happens, I'd rather

1:27:13

like die here or whatever. It's just

1:27:15

not worth it, you know, to try

1:27:17

to get out. So I'm committing to

1:27:19

trying to like hold the line here

1:27:22

with everybody basically that I love in

1:27:24

the world, because like what else are

1:27:26

you going to do, you know? Yeah,

1:27:29

like, I will just say that, you

1:27:31

know, I probably have met more asylum

1:27:33

seekers and most people, you know, and

1:27:36

it is one of the more miserable

1:27:38

fatesable fates available to a human. It

1:27:40

will, if large numbers of people, start

1:27:43

leaving the US only get worse. If

1:27:45

you're someone who's a US citizen, you

1:27:47

have probably... not experienced much in the

1:27:50

way of like strict immigration enforcement if

1:27:52

you have traveled around the world right

1:27:54

you have one of the more high-value

1:27:56

passports in the world you can you

1:27:59

can go almost anywhere with a visa

1:28:01

or in many cases without a visa

1:28:03

seeking asylum is an extremely different process

1:28:06

if you think you're just going to

1:28:08

get on a flight and a leave

1:28:10

and stay somewhere like understand that many

1:28:13

countries will probably begin to require reciprocal

1:28:15

visas with the United States soon if

1:28:17

we continue our current sort of pathway

1:28:20

with a more isolationist immigration policy and

1:28:22

that you'll have to get that visa

1:28:24

and then you know if you overstay

1:28:27

you will be subject to enforcement. The

1:28:29

sense of permanence that you enjoy here

1:28:31

might never be something you enjoy again

1:28:34

and that's just if you're able to

1:28:36

fly somewhere and and So you try

1:28:38

and overstay a visa or you try

1:28:40

and apply for asylum. I have people

1:28:43

I've met in every facet of my

1:28:45

life. I know guys who I met

1:28:47

as a bike racer who have applied

1:28:50

for asylum. Guys I met on a

1:28:52

bike race who are staying on that

1:28:54

barge in the UK. It is a

1:28:57

miserable fate. And I think that I'm

1:28:59

not saying don't do it. I'm saying

1:29:01

that you need to understand that it

1:29:04

is highly unpleasant and it strips you

1:29:06

of all... dignity and in some places

1:29:08

it's just people of like their lives

1:29:11

right people die migrating it's also like

1:29:13

incredibly expensive to do the things that

1:29:15

migrants do because that everyone is trying

1:29:17

to make a buck off them right

1:29:20

I was just talking on another podcast

1:29:22

about how the the journey the people

1:29:24

took up through the dairy and gap

1:29:27

who tried to come to the United

1:29:29

States it would have cost them way

1:29:31

less just to fly but they couldn't

1:29:34

they couldn't get their visas right That

1:29:36

doesn't mean like if you have a

1:29:38

historical right to citizenship through various, you

1:29:41

know, certain people have rights to Spanish

1:29:43

citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish

1:29:45

is one that many people have access

1:29:48

to. Yeah, why not, why not, you

1:29:50

know, if you have the financial resources?

1:29:52

Absolutely. where that will go. Why not

1:29:55

begin pursuing that? Totally. Yeah. As much

1:29:57

as I can, because this is like

1:29:59

not a place that I think people

1:30:01

should be walking away from. And in

1:30:04

some ways that does come from like

1:30:06

a slightly privileged point of view for

1:30:08

multiple reasons. As someone who's white and

1:30:11

holds a Canadian passport as well as

1:30:13

an American passport, that is, you know,

1:30:15

something that I like to have as

1:30:18

a back pocket option, but that's something

1:30:20

I'm not like considering like at all.

1:30:22

Like I do not want to move

1:30:25

to Canada. All my friends are here,

1:30:27

my life is here. There's certain scenarios

1:30:29

where things get much, much, much worse,

1:30:32

even though things are already getting quite

1:30:34

bad. But there are certain scenarios where

1:30:36

yes, that passport will come in handy.

1:30:38

And that's why I do encourage, like

1:30:41

no matter what, you should, you should

1:30:43

see if you have any options to

1:30:45

become a citizen in more than one

1:30:48

country. Great thing to be it's it's

1:30:50

good to not be just tied down

1:30:52

to one place But the process of

1:30:55

trying to to you know immigrate somewhere

1:30:57

where you do not have a citizenship

1:30:59

is already quite challenging and we will

1:31:02

probably discuss some some more of this

1:31:04

later Because I think there's also a

1:31:06

sort of like onion of threat of

1:31:09

people when you're when you're thinking about

1:31:11

this question like which people will will

1:31:13

be or are currently being targeted the

1:31:16

most and how that kind of affects

1:31:18

the options in terms of like relocation

1:31:20

to places view it as like safer

1:31:22

havens. And I would like to jumpstart

1:31:25

that only enough protection discussion after these

1:31:27

messages. We're

1:31:37

back and we're talking about onions,

1:31:39

which you need to wear around

1:31:41

your neck to protect you from

1:31:43

evil spirits. Garrison, that's what you

1:31:45

were getting at, right? Yes. This

1:31:47

one up, that's done. Move on

1:31:49

to the next topic. Where are

1:31:51

five different onions to drive away

1:31:53

the various secret police forces trying

1:31:55

to hunt down individuals? Yes. Speaking

1:31:57

of, I guess, like the big

1:31:59

thing. I'm thinking about right now,

1:32:01

or one of some big things,

1:32:03

is there's different levels of scrutiny

1:32:05

being placed on individuals currently in

1:32:07

the United States. One, you have

1:32:09

like people who are completely undocumented,

1:32:11

right? You have people who are

1:32:13

currently here on like valid asylum

1:32:15

claims who are about to get

1:32:17

those rights like stripped away. I'm

1:32:19

trying to think of like the

1:32:21

list of refugees that were allowed

1:32:23

under Biden that are now like

1:32:25

like imminently going to get their

1:32:27

stuff stripped away from the Trump

1:32:29

administration. I know Venezuela. Yeah, I

1:32:31

know. Haitian immigrants are one. Haitian

1:32:33

immigrants are another. Afghan. But groups

1:32:35

that have been able to come

1:32:37

here the past few years that

1:32:39

are going to be now seen

1:32:41

as like quote unquote illegal by

1:32:43

the White House and immigration customs

1:32:45

enforcement. You then have student visa

1:32:47

holders, which are. already like currently

1:32:49

under threat getting visas taken away.

1:32:51

You have people on work visas,